path: root/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-casual--reimagining-the-emacs-user-experience-with-casual-suite--charles-choi--answers.vtt

WEBVTT

NOTE Opening

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Leo? I'm doing well as well and I'm so happy to have seen your

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talk because the interaction with Emacs is always

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something that I find very interesting, and stuff like

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Transient, stuff like Hydra before, I think they really

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improve the user experience of users, and I'm really glad

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that I've seen you talk. Perhaps just starting with the

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first question, do you have anything else that you'd like to

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add on your talk? Because we are pretty stringent with the

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amount of time that we give for talks, but is there anything

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that you would have liked to mention to people that you

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weren't able to fit into the talk? I think probably one of the

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design considerations I've done is that many of the

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commands that I've exposed through my casual interfaces

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have been in Emacs. They've been in there forever, but very

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few people uh, myself included really know that they're

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there, uh, because they're just not discoverable through,

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uh, basically the existing mechanisms, you know, prior to

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transient and which key to, to even know that those, those

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functions are there. Yeah. So I think I'm going to start

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asking you questions whilst people start writing them in a

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pad. But yeah, I also think that discoverability is a very

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huge point that having stuff like the stuff that you've

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showed today actually allows. One example that I'd like to

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give that many people tend to forget, and you've already

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mentioned it in your presentation, is that I've learned so

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much about using git in general thanks to Magit, for the

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reason that it shows you so many options that you might not be

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aware of. For instance, I like to really think about when

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you think about logging in git, Magit allows you to

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discover so many of the finer options, like I only want to

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see the first commit since the merge, or I only want to

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consider this subsection of commits going from master or

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main to the point of your branch. So many things like this

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that you get to discover thanks to Transient. So do you have

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any similar experience on your end? Oh yeah, far too

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many, particularly with EditKit,

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having access to these commands,

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particularly with different granularity on

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S-expressions, sentences, words...

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Probably the most surprising thing I found

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was just how how compelling the

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S-expression would be as a unit of text for working with.

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I found that in most contexts, or in many places,

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it did what I wanted. I found that to be very surprising.

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So unless you've got anything else to add, I think we can just

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jump into questions. Okay, certainly. I'll be reading them

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for you so that it's easier for you. So the first question is,

NOTE Q: I wonder whether casual can only be used with the packages you

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I wonder whether casual can only be used with the packages

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you mentioned or whether it can be used with whatever

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packages you like. I think it's really the latter. I'm not

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quite sure what the... What the question was really

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pointing at, you know, is the question asking for why I chose

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the packages or the different modes that I did? Or is it, are

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they looking at it from a developer perspective of, can we

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integrate casual with other packages? I mean, since we've

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got a little bit of time ahead of us, feel free to answer both

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questions. Um, I think the answer is, uh. Well, for the 1st,

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1, I've, I've generally tried to stick with using. The modes

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that are already packaged in, um, and so there was a. A big

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refactoring of it where. Initially, I made separate repos

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for the different modes that I supported. And then through a

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discussion, which I won't go into here, that got changed

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where I consolidated all of the different transient menus

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for modes that are built in for behavior that's built into

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the Emacs. I put that into a single package called casual.

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And then integrations with other third party packages that

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are not built in were given the same standalone repo here. In

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terms of folks wanting to integrate that, it's the beauty of

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open source. They can get the repo and uh, and basically

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study that the code base, uh, actually, if they even install

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it through, uh, you know, the package manager in this case,

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uh, coming from the Melbourne distribution, um, they can

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inspect that code and, and, um, make modifications or even.

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uh, you know, integrate that with their other packages and,

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uh, do that to their heart's content. Um, I think one of the

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things that I need to, or at least, uh, you know, that I, I, I

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planned on sort of elaborating further on in the

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documentation is, is that transient already has built in

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mechanisms for modifying an existing transient. So you can

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add commands or, uh, re redefine the bindings. And so. That

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mechanism is available for users if they're not happy with

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those bindings or they want to add their own commands to a

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menu. Yeah, and people are... I'm personally familiar with

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this, again, with Magit, because sometimes, even though

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you have a lot of discoverability for functions that you may

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not know, sometimes you also happen to realize that

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something is missing in the list of available options. I'm

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not sure if Casual actually supports something similar to

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Magit, which is levels of options being displayed.

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Actually, I'm not sure if it's transient native or if it's

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just something that Magit adds over this. No, transient

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supports levels. I've decided

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in large part, I've tried to avoid that just to avoid the

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added complexity of trying to define those levels. Yeah, I

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was going to say that perhaps it doesn't gel very well with

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the notion of casualness that you seem to be introducing the

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package. On one end, you've got something that is supposed

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to be very casual, very easy to use, and on the other end, you

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add levels for stuff that is fairly advanced. So advanced

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versus casual, kind of makes sense that you check this over.

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Alright, moving to the second question which is related to

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the previous one.

NOTE Q: Are there any patterns emerging, such that it would seem possible to 1) systematize 2) automate(?) the mapping of mode commands to keyboard-driven menus? Possibly even have an auto casual wrapper for an uncovered mode?

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Are there any patterns emerging such that

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it would be impossible, sorry, such that it would be

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possible to once systematize and to automate the mapping of

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mode commands to keyboard-driven menus, possibly even

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have an auto-casual wrapper for an uncovered mode? Does it

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make sense to you? Yes, and I've gotten these comments from a

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number of different folks who really want to see some sort

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of design rule to, or basically, what is it? Some sort of

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design system to be able to generate the UI.

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Conceptually, I think it's doable, but on the flip side, it

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just requires so much coordination that it makes it really

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untenable. In this case, I have very strong opinions. I

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think we're better off trying to handcraft the user

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interface to get basically the best user experience. To try

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to emulate that with a design system, good luck, but I'm not

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I'm not interested in working on that. Right, yeah. I think

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if I try to think a little more about this, it feels like

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there's a notion of intention that is very important when

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you are designing UI and UX. And to have this intention, it

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feels like you cannot just base yourself of a design idea to

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organize the options. You cannot just work off a pattern. I

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think you need to have the trace of human understanding in

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order to have a UX that really works. And judging by the

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option that you've picked in the demos that you've showed

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today, I don't think it'd be particularly easy to organize

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them in a UX just casually for any mode. I think you need some

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human introspection to understand this, if that makes

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sense.

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Moving to the next question, which is related to something

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we discussed about with Magit.

NOTE Q: Does Casual have a log where you can see what commands were invoked?

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Does Casual have a log where

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you can see what commands were invoked? This is always

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available via M-x view-lossage or via the command-log-mode,

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but I'm wondering if it can do for Emacs command what

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magit-process-buffer does for learning Git commands. And for

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everyone who's currently in Emacs, whenever you're

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running a command in Magit, it's always printing the exact

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command that was run in a shell, inside this $

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menu. So does Casual actually provide something similar,

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Charles? I don't know. In general, because I'm building off

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of transient, it would have to be a mechanism that's

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available through transient. And You know, I would let

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Jonas speak more on that capability, because to be honest, I

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mean, even to my knowledge of transient is not that deep,

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actually.

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Well, it's funny that you say this because even though you

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say your knowledge might not be that big, you still managed

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to develop a whole suite of tools on top of it. So as far as

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people who do not know transient a whole lot, you're doing a

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pretty damn good job. Let me tell you that much. Thank you.

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Yeah, I think sort of what I bring to the table is, you know,

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quite a considerable career in software development on

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other software ecosystems. And as of late, I've spent

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basically the past decade working on iOS apps. Right. I

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think it's refreshing to be able to go back to something that

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looks like Emacs after iOS.

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Well, that's perhaps another longer conversation there.

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Speaking of longer conversation, we have only about 10

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minutes left until we need to move on to the next talk. But

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thank you everyone for all the questions you're asking. I'm

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not saying this because we finished, but it's good to see so

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many people writing in the chat and asking questions. It

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always shows that you're interested and that's always

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lovely to us. And you've mentioned Jonas. Obviously, we're

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talking about Jonas Bernoulli, i.e. Tarsius, the

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maintainer of transient. And what Charles just mentioned

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about having a transient tooling to print the lossage,

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basically, of which sex were run by which command, feels

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like this is something that would be interesting. So,

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perhaps, I'm not sure if Tarsius is still on the chat

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currently, but he was definitely around earlier today, so

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we'll make sure that the ID lands on his lap later on. All

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right, moving to the next question.

NOTE Q: Is there a setting to close menu after executing command?

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Is there a setting to

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close menu after executing a command? By default, it will.

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There's a slot that you can define in a transient

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prefix called :transient. And if you set that to true,

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then it will persist the menu after executing the command.

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But by default, it will actually dismiss the menu. This

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feels... Did you actually get to play with Hydra before

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playing with transients? To be honest, no. Yeah, I kind of

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slept on Hydra or at least, you know, I really wasn't all that

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ambitious with working with different packages until

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about like, a little less than 2 years ago or so.

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And then the other part was also, um. You know, not not really

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a technical. Start a comparison because I really don't want

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to upset folks here, but, uh. But more along the lines of just

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going with the notion that transient was being built in or

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packaged as a built in package for Emacs. I went with using

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that for my implementation. Cool. And I don't think there's

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anything controversial with what you're saying right now

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because, you know, we had earlier today, Euro Rechenko, the

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new maintainer of Augment, mentioning that he'd like to

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have a better integration with Transient because

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Transient is, it looks like it's here to stay for a long time

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and might even land in core at some point. So, it definitely

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feels comparing Hydra because for me, most of my UI needs in

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Emacs prior to Transient were done via Hydra because it was a

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very convenient tooling. For people who do not know, Hydra

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is written by AboAbo. who's also authored packages like

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Lispy, an interactive Lisp mode, also for Ivy, which you

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might know as the counterpart of Helm, maybe five years ago.

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So all those packages, they were very innovative for the

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time and it's cool to see that some of the ideas which were

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introduced by IV and Helm and all this are then taken by tools

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like Transient and done perhaps with a little more

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hindsight now that people have experienced a little more of

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it. Okay, we have still a little bit of time. Moving on to the

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next question.

NOTE Q: What modes are you working on at the moment for casual / are excited to explore?

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What modes are you working on at the moment

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for Casual or are you excited to explore?

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Well, so I just recently published one for calendar. And so I

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think the calendar interface has a lot of really

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interesting behavior, particularly its support for

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non-Gregorian events, which is, you know, for folks who'd

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like, in my case, looking at the lunar calendar, it's great

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to have tooling to be able to not have to leave Emacs to figure

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out when a lunar date is.

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Then, I think, you know, for the most part, My work on casual

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was really kind of my summer of code for Emacs here. And so in

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many ways, the velocity of casual development is going to

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slow down where I've got a big bulk of the modes that I really

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wanted to take care of. Um, I think one experimental thing

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that I think is very unbaked, but I would, you know, if folks

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are interested, uh, maybe looking at it is, uh, taking a look

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at edebug and trying to make that an easier thing to do. Um,

00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:18.359
that is ambitious. Uh, yeah, so maybe too ambitious.

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Uh, other things are like really scary projects.

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And so, not to say that

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I really have a desire to do it, but another

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one would be ediff. Right. Okay. Relitigating it's

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interface, um, to have a transient menu. I say

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these things, but I'm also scared of those things. Yeah, I

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mean, I think it's a lovely way to tackle the project,

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really, because you are fully aware that edebug and ediffs

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are mastodons when it comes to Emacs. They work very well. If

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you've ever tried to do a conflict resolution in Magit and

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you've pressed e, that usually opens ediff for you. If you

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happen to know how it works, it's amazing, but if you do not know

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it works, the interface is a little... It's a lot to take in

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at the moment. You have to know a, b, w... I can, and I

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can never remember which one is the lower and which one is the

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upper. Like, it constantly goes in different directions. I

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can never remember which is the commit I'm trying to merge,

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which is the commit I'm currently being on. It has nothing to

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do with Magit. It's merely Git and the way they conceive

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this. And probably, there might be a very nice way to

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remember it, but I still haven't found it after 10 years as a

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software developer. So, I guess I need to dig a little

00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:48.519
deeper. But what I find lovely about the approach is that for

00:17:48.520 --> 00:17:52.599
you, working on the interface to those tools is actually

00:17:52.600 --> 00:17:55.159
something that allows you to discover how they work, but

00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:59.119
also how to make it more easy for people to understand how

00:17:59.120 --> 00:18:02.039
those tools work. So you're doing the work of

00:18:02.040 --> 00:18:05.399
understanding, of digesting a lot of the commands, so that

00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:08.599
people do not have to go through the same pain as you have. So I

00:18:08.600 --> 00:18:14.279
find this a very noble endeavor in a way.

NOTE Getting older

00:18:14.280 --> 00:18:18.559
In so many ways, as perhaps I've mentioned

00:18:18.560 --> 00:18:23.639
in my talk, I'm getting older. I can't remember all

00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:28.759
these damn commands and my hand dexterity is failing. I

00:18:28.760 --> 00:18:33.199
mean, there's so many. Like multiple keystroke

00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:37.479
bindings, which I absolutely loathe. At most,

00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.799
like I can, I can only physically handle like, two

00:18:40.800 --> 00:18:47.799
characters, three maybe, at a time. So maybe

00:18:47.800 --> 00:18:51.239
that's just me, and others may

00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:55.999
feel differently, but at the same time,

00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:01.519
the work that I've invested here is has been very personal

00:19:01.520 --> 00:19:06.239
for me because I just don't want to work that hard, and I want to

00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:11.159
keep using Emacs. Yeah, and that's again a very good

00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:13.719
endeavor, I think, to have. And there's one last thing that

00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:16.039
I'd like to mention, because you've mentioned this project

00:19:16.040 --> 00:19:19.879
of yours, Casual, being some kind of summer of code, with the

00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:22.399
implication that you've worked a whole lot of it during the

00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:26.919
summer or during this period. and perhaps investment will

00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:31.119
die down a little bit now. But I think it's completely fine to

00:19:31.120 --> 00:19:33.879
have moments when you feel particularly excited and you do a

00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:36.959
lot of work, and sometimes it dies down a little bit.

00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:41.439
Personally, I've been... Four years ago, I was working a lot

00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:44.679
on Org Roam and I had my Summer of Code on Org Roam. And that was

00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:47.159
great. I was able to do a lot of things, to get a lot of things

00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:50.559
out of my head. But eventually, you know, you have to go make

00:19:50.560 --> 00:19:53.279
some money to survive or you have to take care of family and

00:19:53.280 --> 00:19:56.399
stuff like this. So, life tends to get in the way of your

00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:00.519
hobbies, especially when, you know, it's so... It's

00:20:00.520 --> 00:20:03.239
hobbies that involve so much of your time to get things

00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:07.879
right, like programming does. But, you know, we appreciate

00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:09.799
all the work you've done, Charles, and the fact that you've

00:20:09.800 --> 00:20:12.679
put it out there for people to enjoy. It's already a victory.

00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:14.999
You don't need to feel compelled to keep working on it

00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.159
because ultimately, as you said, the beauty of open source

00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:21.759
is that people can just send PRs and get the project going

00:20:21.760 --> 00:20:28.519
again. Yeah. I mean, and if anything, you know, folks have

00:20:28.520 --> 00:20:33.319
expressed to me that, you know, in many ways, a lot of this

00:20:33.320 --> 00:20:37.959
stuff should be, you know, sort of folded in the core. And,

00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:45.159
you know, I would love to see at least the ideals of, or at

00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:49.319
least an openness into thinking, rethinking the interface

00:20:49.320 --> 00:20:54.119
for Emacs. So, you know, it doesn't have to be, basically

00:20:54.120 --> 00:20:59.119
work the way it worked for basically the last half of the 20th

00:20:59.120 --> 00:21:03.519
century here. Yeah, Emacs is flexible enough to have

00:21:03.520 --> 00:21:10.279
different approaches and, you know, transient is one

00:21:10.280 --> 00:21:17.759
approach, but at the same time, you know, the ability to

00:21:17.760 --> 00:21:22.559
reimagine the user interface for, you know, the computing

00:21:22.560 --> 00:21:28.159
needs, you know, for basically users needs today, whether

00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:33.119
you write or code or anything of that nature, I think is an

00:21:33.120 --> 00:21:39.039
exciting and great thing. Yeah, well, thank you so much for

00:21:39.040 --> 00:21:41.639
this conclusion. So I'm a little sorry, because sadly, we

00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:45.919
needed to move the stream to the next talk. So we've lost

00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.639
about 20 seconds of what you said. But don't worry, whatever

00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:51.999
you've said will be available on the website. I didn't want

00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:55.759
to interrupt, sadly, because I didn't want to be rude. But I

00:21:55.760 --> 00:21:58.679
think we did a great job answering the questions. So thank

00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:01.199
you so much for taking the time. I'll need to get going,

00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:02.759
because we might have a problem with the next talk. So thank

00:22:02.760 --> 00:22:05.919
you so much, Charles. Certainly. Take care. Thank you.

00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:12.120
Appreciate it. Bye.