WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.039 And I believe we are live. Okay. Hi again, Ihor. How are you 00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:09.359 doing? Ready to answer questions, right? Yes. Ready to 00:00:09.360 --> 00:00:13.039 answer questions and all this. I mean, ready for 00:00:13.040 --> 00:00:14.999 everything. It's not just a question, it's the maintenance 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:21.679 that is now lying in front of you. So... Oh, that's not the end 00:00:21.680 --> 00:00:25.159 of the day. I mean, it's a rare thing indeed, because you 00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:27.439 might not be able to see it on BBB. I'm checking in, but we've 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:30.599 got Ihor, obviously, but we also have Bastien and also 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:34.199 Carsten in the room. So, we have three maintainers of Org 00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:36.119 Mode right there in the room to answer all your questions. 00:00:36.120 --> 00:00:40.759 So, it's a rare occasion that I invite all of you to seize the 00:00:40.760 --> 00:00:44.679 day on this. Ihor, do you have anything maybe to say before we 00:00:44.680 --> 00:00:49.599 start moving into the questions? Well, I hope that I said 00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:51.759 everything I wanted. Hello, Bastien. during the 00:00:51.760 --> 00:00:55.519 presentation. Well, actually, I can say a lot more, like 00:00:55.520 --> 00:01:01.439 infinitely, because when I first recorded it, it was like 00:01:01.440 --> 00:01:05.999 one hour. So yeah. I mean, you did a, I'll just let you know, 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:08.359 you did a fine job condensing everything in just 40 minutes. 00:01:08.360 --> 00:01:14.079 So congratulations on this. Yeah, it's, yeah, usually one 00:01:14.080 --> 00:01:18.039 minute per slide is the best way. Otherwise, it's something 00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:22.319 that's wrong with this presentation. Right, so just moving 00:01:22.320 --> 00:01:25.519 into the question, and by the way we've got 20 minutes, we 00:01:25.520 --> 00:01:27.799 might be able to chat a little more if Bastien wants to say 00:01:27.800 --> 00:01:29.919 something as well and Carsten, you know, feel free to 00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:33.119 intervene at any point during the questions if you've got 00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:35.279 anything to contribute or our voice will just show the 00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:37.879 breeze later on. So the first question is relating to 00:01:37.880 --> 00:01:41.479 something you said about 10 minutes 34 that might speak more 00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:42.685 to you than to me. NOTE Q: Is the track-changes item about the org-element parser? 00:01:42.686 --> 00:01:45.159 Is the track changes item about the org 00:01:45.160 --> 00:01:51.519 element parser Yes, the track changes is a new library that 00:01:51.520 --> 00:01:58.959 helps to receive changes in buffers incrementally. So like 00:01:58.960 --> 00:02:03.079 you can, it has API where you can request what changes 00:02:03.080 --> 00:02:07.999 happened in buffer since last request, chunk by chunk. And 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:14.119 in org mode, in org element parser, we do pretty much the same 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:19.879 thing, but using timers. So this track changes library 00:02:19.880 --> 00:02:25.159 should improve things, first, because it's a bit faster, 00:02:25.160 --> 00:02:29.279 because we don't need to conjure every single change, and 00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:32.119 track changes can agglomerate changes into chunks much 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:36.039 more efficiently. And second, it's a built-in library, so 00:02:36.040 --> 00:02:40.439 it's a good idea to use built-in library when there is such an 00:02:40.440 --> 00:02:45.879 option, instead of running out our own implementation. 00:02:45.880 --> 00:02:49.399 Definitely. Moving on to the second question, although I'm 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:52.664 not sure it refers that much to what you can do. NOTE Q: Could you please keep IRC alive? I prefer it to Matrix 00:02:52.665 --> 00:02:57.759 Could you please keep IRC alive? And I prefer it to Matrix. I mean, 00:02:57.760 --> 00:03:03.239 you did talk about IRC, right? But did we talk about phasing 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:08.799 it out? So I try to be live on IRC, but I use mobile client for 00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:12.999 IRC to keep connected. So I usually connected, I usually see 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:15.519 messages, except certain times when I don't have mobile 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:19.239 internet. Right. Okay. That's why many people will tell 00:03:19.240 --> 00:03:23.399 you, you need a bouncer and all this, but the IRC crowd is very 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:33.679 loud. I just don't know a good bouncer. I don't have a good 00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:36.399 setup for a bouncer. Okay. 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:41.239 Personally, I use WeChat usually to stay connected to 00:03:41.240 --> 00:03:44.119 email. It's obviously a client for IRC, but it also allows 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.959 you to, you know, you can keep it as a bouncer, but it's not in 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:54.159 Emacs. It is. I don't have a computer that is running 24 00:03:54.160 --> 00:03:56.839 hours, so. I mean, that's the thing. I do have a server to run 00:03:56.840 --> 00:04:02.239 it off. All right, moving on to the third question. That is 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:06.559 what is running 24 hours. Right. Okay. All right. Moving on 00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:07.987 to the third question. NOTE Q: Is there any plan for adding support for other modalities of notes like handwritten,  audio, etc.? 00:04:07.988 --> 00:04:09.519 Is there any plan for adding support 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:11.959 for other modalities of note-like, handwritten, audio, 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:14.919 and et cetera? Would that be interesting to the community? 00:04:14.920 --> 00:04:20.319 It will definitely be useful for me. I didn't. Okay. So this 00:04:20.320 --> 00:04:25.399 is not the idea I hear frequently. So there's no plan for such 00:04:25.400 --> 00:04:29.959 thing. Modalities of notes like handwritten audio. I think 00:04:29.960 --> 00:04:34.519 John Kitchin did some handwritten note. 00:04:34.520 --> 00:04:46.119 John Kitchin. Yeah. And for audio, I think as well. I. So 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:48.999 basically you can use attachments, you can use images to 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:54.279 paste you. I think John Kitchin even use it to automatically 00:04:54.280 --> 00:04:58.519 recognize notes. 00:04:58.520 --> 00:05:05.359 I think the previous speaker was talking about a whisper to 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:10.399 recognize voice. Right. 00:05:10.400 --> 00:05:13.959 Otherwise there is no special workflow and I'm not even sure 00:05:13.960 --> 00:05:16.919 what we can do to support this workflow specifically. 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:22.759 Yeah, it definitely feels like Org Mode is a good format for 00:05:22.760 --> 00:05:25.719 textual stuff, and a lot of things are textual. I mean, 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:29.679 that's the whole philosophy behind Emacs. But when it comes 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:34.439 to voice, it feels like it's... I think the person asking the 00:05:34.440 --> 00:05:36.799 question probably needs to specify what they mean by voice. 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:40.279 Is it just raw note-taking, as Blaine mentioned in a 00:05:40.280 --> 00:05:43.199 previous talk, or is it something else? Feel free to add up to 00:05:43.200 --> 00:05:46.759 the question and we'll return to it later on. 00:05:46.760 --> 00:05:51.919 I think this is kind of related to drag and drop. I think you 00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:57.279 would like to be able to have an audio file and drop it in and 00:05:57.280 --> 00:06:00.879 have it translated to text. I think that would be an 00:06:00.880 --> 00:06:03.959 interesting API to do this, right? So that you can integrate 00:06:03.960 --> 00:06:07.599 it into something like drag and drop. I think I'm going to 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:12.079 talk with supporters in since overnight. So we have, I 00:06:12.080 --> 00:06:14.959 believe what constant is alluring to is the fact that not 00:06:14.960 --> 00:06:17.679 just pictures but imagine if you were bringing in an audio 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:20.399 file maybe you could, I mean I'm not sure it would work with 00:06:20.400 --> 00:06:24.279 whisper but. transcribing it in a way and inserting it as 00:06:24.280 --> 00:06:27.079 text. Although I'm not sure how we would be able to do this, 00:06:27.080 --> 00:06:30.159 but it's an interesting idea though. It can work if you write 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:35.359 some kind of automatic speech recognition. It's not really 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:39.479 a job for work. If you have some library that can transform 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:43.959 audio to text or transform image to text in Elixir, then we 00:06:43.960 --> 00:06:47.599 can happily use that library. Definitely, but I can tell you 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:50.119 that Whisper is not something that works very quickly. We do 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:53.479 use Whisper AI to transcribe some of the talks that we 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:56.879 broadcast during EmacsConf, and I can tell you it takes a 00:06:56.880 --> 00:06:59.359 fair while. If you have a video that lasts one minute, it's 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:03.439 definitely going to take more than one minute to try to 00:07:03.440 --> 00:07:09.239 transcribe the video. We had to wait for a few years until it 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:12.679 passed. Probably, but it's good to have the ID now so 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:17.479 that we are ready eventually to do this. There is the new 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:23.319 asynchronous IP. It's called org-pending. It's work in 00:07:23.320 --> 00:07:29.599 progress. And that basically allows to defer inserting 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:34.199 text into our buffers until later. And while it's being 00:07:34.200 --> 00:07:37.719 worked on, it will basically highlight the place where it 00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:43.159 will be inserted. And you can click on it, see the progress, 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:49.519 and stuff like that. So this is for Babylon, but I imagine for 00:07:49.520 --> 00:07:56.159 things like voice recognition, it can also work. 00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:59.799 All right, what I suggest we do, we're going to fill the two 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:02.279 questions that we have now, and then it'd be nice if we could 00:08:02.280 --> 00:08:05.399 hear a word from Bastien and from Carsten as well, because 00:08:05.400 --> 00:08:08.719 it's rare to have all of you three in a room, and it would be 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:11.439 nice maybe to chat a little bit about this. So quickly, with NOTE Q: WRT IETF standardization, have you looked at Karl Voit's OrgDown? 00:08:11.440 --> 00:08:14.199 the last two questions, with regards to IETF 00:08:14.200 --> 00:08:17.039 standardization, have you looked at Karl Voit's Orgdown? 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:24.919 So, of course, there was a discussion on the mailing list, 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:28.319 and there was a lot of pushback to this idea, especially to 00:08:28.320 --> 00:08:33.399 simplify the syntax. So, in short, the conclusion from 00:08:33.400 --> 00:08:37.799 there is we want the full syntax, we don't want to have things 00:08:37.800 --> 00:08:43.079 like different versus Org mode. But for the syntax, we may 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:49.279 specify different like coverage. So for example, it's a 00:08:49.280 --> 00:08:53.119 minimal, it has a minimal support so people can, there's 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:59.079 some parsers or apps can support just whatever curl calls 00:08:59.080 --> 00:09:04.239 fork down like level zero or level one or whatever. But the 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:10.079 key point is, when it goes to IETF, we want to have the full 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:13.119 syntax. We don't want to split it into pieces. 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:18.959 Makes a lot of sense. All right. And the last question we have NOTE Q: About a year ago we discussed switching GNU documentation from texinfo to org. Do you still consider this? 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:22.359 for now. About a year ago, we discussed switching new 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:26.239 documentation from texinfo to org. Do you still consider 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:30.879 this? definitely contributed to some of the ideas about 00:09:30.880 --> 00:09:34.479 syntax. For example, the inline special blocks, I think 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:41.639 about them with this in mind, so that, so basically, one 00:09:41.640 --> 00:09:45.999 clarity, we don't want to complicate our syntax, we don't 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:50.319 want to have special built-in support for variable, or I 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:54.319 don't know, function name, or all this kind of specific 00:09:54.320 --> 00:10:00.959 markup. But instead, the idea is to have some generic custom 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:06.479 syntax. And then when it goes to software manuals, we want 00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:09.759 some like optional library that will provide certain 00:10:09.760 --> 00:10:12.439 syntax extensions, like inline special block for 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:15.479 variables, inline special block for acronym and stuff like 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:20.999 that. Then people who want to use Org mode for manuals should 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:26.119 be able to use that new markup to achieve what they want. 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:34.359 That's a distant idea. But the key point is we want to keep org 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:39.039 mode as generic syntax. We don't want to specialize it for 00:10:39.040 --> 00:10:43.799 software specifically. But generic in the sense that it can 00:10:43.800 --> 00:10:44.759 be used for software as well. 00:10:44.760 --> 00:10:50.959 All right, well thank you so much for your answer here and 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:56.399 that was very enlightening but I'd first like to give the mic 00:10:56.400 --> 00:11:00.359 to Bastien who might need to leave shortly and I just want to 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:03.559 make sure that you get to chat a little bit Bastien because 00:11:03.560 --> 00:11:06.199 it's a big thing we've had you as a maintainer for however 00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:13.199 long now? Well, officially, it was 14 years. But obviously, 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:17.999 EHO has been doing much of the groundwork as a de facto 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:20.239 maintainer for several years now, I believe for three or 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:28.679 four years. And before Before IHO, there was Nicolas Goaziou, 00:11:28.680 --> 00:11:33.679 who's doing a lot of work. Also Kyle Meyer, who is still 00:11:33.680 --> 00:11:40.599 active, backporting Emacs changes. So 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:46.039 it's a relief that we can do things properly, that I didn't 00:11:46.040 --> 00:11:51.439 give up before someone could really step up. I'm glad we're 00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:57.679 doing this. And I'm glad there was so much help during the 00:11:57.680 --> 00:12:01.959 time when I was not available enough. Well, thank you, 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:05.039 Bastien. I think on behalf of the community, I think I'd like 00:12:05.040 --> 00:12:07.719 to extend a big thank you for all the work you've done 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:12.279 throughout those 14 years. And if we pull the rope just a 00:12:12.280 --> 00:12:15.719 little more, before those 14 years, we had someone else 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:18.199 maintaining Org Mode, well, not actually just maintaining 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:20.879 Org Mode, but also inventing it. Carsten, how are you doing? 00:12:20.880 --> 00:12:26.799 I am. I'm doing fine. A really great opportunity to be here. NOTE Community 00:12:26.800 --> 00:12:31.279 First, I would like to start by indeed thanking Bastien 00:12:31.280 --> 00:12:34.839 because, I mean, he was not only maintainer after I stopped, 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:37.839 but already during the time I was there, he was one of the key 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:40.559 contributors who helped the project along for quite a bit. 00:12:40.560 --> 00:12:44.759 So it's an incredible investment of time and energy that 00:12:44.760 --> 00:12:48.399 Basquiat has shown, which is really fantastic. And now I see 00:12:48.400 --> 00:12:52.479 Ihor taking over with, as far as I can see, deep knowledge and 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:56.199 all the right ideas about philosophy. So I'm really 00:12:56.200 --> 00:13:00.039 impressed. For me, this is really totally amazing because I 00:13:00.040 --> 00:13:04.719 started hacking this more than 20 years ago. And to just see 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:07.679 that there's a community that has sustained itself with the 00:13:07.680 --> 00:13:11.439 help of new maintainers for such a long time makes me 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:13.999 extremely grateful. So thank you very much to all of you. 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:20.679 Okay, well, amazing. I mean, I'm a little flustered, I must 00:13:20.680 --> 00:13:23.559 admit, because I'm seeing three players of the community in 00:13:23.560 --> 00:13:27.639 a way that have kept me busy with very fun stuff to do with Org 00:13:27.640 --> 00:13:30.999 Mode, and it's really amazing to see three giants of the 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:34.239 community being able to maintain Org Mode for so long and 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:38.199 contribute so much to it. So, again, thanks to all of you 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:40.981 three. I must also admit that it's really amazing for me 00:13:40.982 --> 00:13:45.442 that all of you three stress the importance of the community 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:48.479 a whole lot, and I know that Bastien, you've talked about 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:51.359 maintaining software last year at Emacs Confs, and even 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:55.519 today, during the one-minute little chat that you did in 00:13:55.520 --> 00:13:59.279 Ihor's chat, you stressed the importance of maintenance and to 00:13:59.280 --> 00:14:06.559 be future-oriented about it. I'm kind of wondering, why do 00:14:06.560 --> 00:14:12.679 you think community is so important to Org Mode in general? 00:14:12.680 --> 00:14:14.679 Like, obviously we've talked about maintainers and we've 00:14:14.680 --> 00:14:16.879 talked about volunteers, but don't you think there's 00:14:16.880 --> 00:14:19.159 something more about community in general, about Org Mode 00:14:19.160 --> 00:14:20.950 and the fact that we are all taking notes 00:14:20.951 --> 00:14:34.799 and doing so much with it? Yeah, are you asking me? 00:14:34.800 --> 00:14:40.640 I remember Carsten made his point during the Google talk about 00:14:40.680 --> 00:14:45.159 the core idea of Org Mode, about mixing note taking and to-do 00:14:45.160 --> 00:14:49.959 manager. It was really powerful. And also in the same 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:53.399 presentation that 98% 00:14:53.400 --> 00:14:57.047 of the features were organically developed as ideas 00:14:57.048 --> 00:15:00.668 by the community. And Ihor just said the same today 00:15:00.669 --> 00:15:03.589 in the presentation, like most of the features, 00:15:03.590 --> 00:15:06.875 not only the ideas, but also the code came from 00:15:06.876 --> 00:15:11.350 the communities. So that's why the community is so rich. 00:15:11.351 --> 00:15:12.759 And another thing is 00:15:12.760 --> 00:15:16.919 also that I do remember. Now everyone is having kind of an open 00:15:16.920 --> 00:15:20.799 source fatigue and questions about how is it okay to be 00:15:20.800 --> 00:15:24.039 maintainer? How do you keep open source project 00:15:24.040 --> 00:15:28.199 sustainable? And I'm saying open source on purpose with 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:33.119 this audience to see beyond just the small GNU project and 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:36.359 the small free software community. So at large, there is 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:40.679 some sense of fatigue. I remember that the Org community 00:15:40.680 --> 00:15:44.079 right from the beginning had a reputation of being an 00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:48.839 amazing community and I think it 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:54.879 continues to be one and I'm amazed that sometimes when I'm, 00:15:54.880 --> 00:15:59.199 you know, sometimes I'm, I have this fatigue of moderating 00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:01.839 emails from the mailing list, for example, and filtering 00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:06.199 out spam. And then I go on the list and I read some emails and I 00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:09.536 feel like, okay, this is still there. And it's really 00:16:09.537 --> 00:16:14.559 a boost of energy. I wish that this repetition outside Org Mode, 00:16:14.560 --> 00:16:19.239 outside Emacs, of being a nice welcoming, 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:22.559 community of knowledgeable people talking of things 00:16:22.560 --> 00:16:25.319 and learning from each other that we can 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:30.159 keep up with this pace. Yeah, maybe if I 00:16:30.160 --> 00:16:32.919 can just add to this, I think you're making an extremely 00:16:32.920 --> 00:16:36.679 important point, Pascal. I think that was really, from the 00:16:36.680 --> 00:16:39.639 beginning, something that was really special. And I think 00:16:39.640 --> 00:16:45.639 the reason why we all community still works is that first me, 00:16:45.640 --> 00:16:49.239 but in particular also the two of you and more people have 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:53.359 been able to keep up the friendly spirit in this community. 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:57.239 Because we had very few fights on the mailing list. There 00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:02.879 were a few at some point, we had a few contributors with a 00:17:02.880 --> 00:17:06.719 little bit of fights. And I remember that I, for example, had 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:10.159 to invest a lot of time to keep that one under control, but I 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:14.199 think it was totally worth it because as a group, as a whole, I 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:18.679 think it was really fantastic. Our friendly people 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:21.719 always were, and I think that has spurred all the 00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:22.640 contributions that we had. Because 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:25.542 if you are in a toxic environment, you will 00:17:25.543 --> 00:17:29.458 not be willing to stay and to invest all their time. And if you 00:17:29.708 --> 00:17:32.291 are in an appreciative environment where people support 00:17:32.292 --> 00:17:35.191 each other, it's a completely different game. So I really 00:17:35.192 --> 00:17:38.566 think that Org Mode is a great example for open source 00:17:38.567 --> 00:17:43.774 projects that many other communities can learn from. 00:17:43.775 --> 00:17:52.441 If I may just interject for a second, because we need to go 00:17:52.442 --> 00:17:55.441 into the next chat for the live stream. But as usual, I invite 00:17:55.442 --> 00:17:57.524 you, if you're interested with the discussion, we are 00:17:57.525 --> 00:18:01.482 staying on BBB, asking questions to Bastien, to Ihor and 00:18:01.483 --> 00:18:04.316 to Carsten. So feel free to join on BBB and chat with them 00:18:04.317 --> 00:18:07.857 live. The stream will be moving on to the next chat, but we 00:18:07.858 --> 00:18:10.566 will be recording the Q&A and posting it afterwards on 00:18:10.567 --> 00:18:13.441 emacsconf. So, I'll use the opportunity to thank you again, 00:18:13.442 --> 00:18:18.941 all three, for taking part in this EmacsConf, and enjoy the 00:18:18.942 --> 00:18:27.482 discussion, and we'll see you later! Thank you, bye bye! So, 00:18:27.483 --> 00:18:31.274 yeah, what I was starting to say actually is I feel that the 00:18:31.275 --> 00:18:35.024 Org Mode community and to the big extent the Emacs community 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:38.679 is a bit like research in the early days when there was a bunch 00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:43.959 of enthusiasts who just exchanged mails together and tried 00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:49.159 to find out something new. And there was like no feeling of 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:52.719 competition or too much competition at that time. Unlike 00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:58.759 now when we like we all rise for funding and stuff. So it's, 00:18:58.760 --> 00:19:02.199 it's really, it's really nice to, to, to have communities 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:05.919 that has the spirit and they hope it can keep the spirit in 00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:08.279 future as well. 00:19:08.280 --> 00:19:14.599 Yeah. Yeah. I thought I'm very optimistic after. So I mean, 00:19:14.600 --> 00:19:18.679 actually had not been reading the mailing list for quite a 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:23.039 while, but I started to read it again a little while ago and I 00:19:23.040 --> 00:19:26.719 could just see you also working on it and see how everything 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:30.919 was going. That made me extremely happy to see that and made 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:37.679 me very proud that this is still ongoing. 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:42.799 I was interested about your point about the tables with 00:19:42.800 --> 00:19:49.079 multi-lines. My unsolicited advice is don't do it, because 00:19:49.080 --> 00:19:52.639 I think it's going to be a mess. Which I think is reflected 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.039 also by you saying that nobody has a good idea on how to do 00:19:56.040 --> 00:20:01.079 this. I have certainly thought about it. It is requested so 00:20:01.080 --> 00:20:04.599 often. It's requested so often that it feels like it would be 00:20:04.600 --> 00:20:07.959 nice to come out with something. The question is, it is what? 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:11.399 Yeah, that's a big question. Because I don't always ask 00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:15.919 eDocs, for example, and they do have multi line cells in 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:21.279 tables, but that syntax is so ugly. Yes. Yeah, no, exactly. I 00:20:21.280 --> 00:20:28.719 think this is a problem and the question is, how far do you 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:33.639 want to develop or want to be a completely full authoring 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:35.839 system in the sense that you have all these options there 00:20:35.840 --> 00:20:39.999 because I think to me, the Org Mode tables have a specific 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.759 application. They have this fast way of building 00:20:42.760 --> 00:20:46.079 something. And if I would have to go and build a hugely 00:20:46.080 --> 00:20:50.279 complicated table with different numbers of columns and 00:20:50.280 --> 00:20:53.959 columns going away and appearing further down the table, so 00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:56.639 I would probably go somewhere else. So for me, this seems to 00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.319 be overkill. So I don't want to curb anybody's enthusiasm. 00:21:00.320 --> 00:21:04.919 But I think it's really important to keep to keep the kind of 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:11.199 functionality that it has. It's a very easy use and quick 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:15.879 ability to do something interesting that I think is more 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:23.319 important. There could be reasons to not do something. So 00:21:23.320 --> 00:21:28.399 again, the thing is, we don't have a good idea. But what I know 00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:32.319 100% is that we are not going to give up the existing syntax. 00:21:32.320 --> 00:21:38.839 Yeah, for sure. So even if you come up with something good, 00:21:38.840 --> 00:21:42.279 the existing syntax will remain working. And if people who 00:21:42.280 --> 00:21:46.159 need to use simple tables, they should remain possible in 00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:52.759 exactly the same way. But I know many people struggle and try 00:21:52.760 --> 00:21:55.839 in LaTeX and other workarounds just to create more complex 00:21:55.840 --> 00:22:01.039 tables. So there's clearly a demand. I think this is related 00:22:01.040 --> 00:22:04.439 to the other question that you asked earlier. I think it's 00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:06.639 related to the question about the different parsers. And 00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:09.999 then, of course, the way the tables are implemented now is by 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:11.944 basically just looking at what's around you 00:22:11.945 --> 00:22:13.484 and doing the right things with 00:22:13.485 --> 00:22:20.479 this regular expression-based part of 00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:24.279 the parser. And you probably would have to fully use the 00:22:24.280 --> 00:22:28.839 other parts and to do all the changes in the formal structure 00:22:28.840 --> 00:22:31.559 in order to do something like this. So I have to be honest that 00:22:31.560 --> 00:22:35.559 I don't understand this well enough to really have a 00:22:35.560 --> 00:22:39.679 meaningful idea about it. Not only that, we'll also need to 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:42.799 rewrite the spreadsheet functionality because it is 00:22:42.800 --> 00:22:47.679 completely using regular expressions. Exactly. Not only 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:50.639 idea is missing that the roadmap will be very complicated if 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:57.519 you get there. Yeah. I mean, I do remember. Yeah, go ahead. 00:22:57.520 --> 00:23:03.359 Yeah, sorry. I do remember Richard Stallman saying that 00:23:03.360 --> 00:23:09.759 Org Mode was doing too much. So my answer was just, coming from 00:23:09.760 --> 00:23:14.159 the inventor of Emacs, I took it as a compliment for Org Mode. 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:19.319 But of course, that was just humor. And I agree that the 00:23:19.320 --> 00:23:24.279 simple things should keep being simple. And I like the 00:23:24.280 --> 00:23:30.039 custom syntax idea of Juan because it goes in the direction 00:23:30.040 --> 00:23:34.159 of flexibility while keeping things simple. 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:40.319 And looking forward to what people will come up with. I like 00:23:40.320 --> 00:23:44.839 the idea that you want to formalize the syntax. I think that 00:23:44.840 --> 00:23:48.479 is really very good. I'd like to also submit it. I think that 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:52.359 would be excellent. I'm also... I think it was proposed by 00:23:52.360 --> 00:23:57.239 Timothy, yeah. Initially. Okay. Yeah, that's really 00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:02.839 helpful. Pascal, are you still talking, I think? No, yeah, I 00:24:02.840 --> 00:24:08.399 just wanted to say also for the younger Emacs users, there is 00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:12.839 a lot of new things in Emacs the last five years. It has been so 00:24:12.840 --> 00:24:17.719 exciting. And I believe it's exciting for Org Mode too, the 00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:22.439 things you mentioned about track changes. uh native 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:25.639 compilation and all that stuff that that's really good like 00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:29.879 some some performance problems that we had for org mode for 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:33.759 the agenda and stuff like that were suddenly solved by uh the 00:24:33.760 --> 00:24:38.159 the crazy amazing work by Eli and emacs maintainers so 00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:40.457 it's really exciting for org as well. 00:24:40.458 --> 00:24:43.566 I don't know how you feel, Ihor, about this, 00:24:43.567 --> 00:24:45.482 but I know you are reading the Emacs 00:24:45.483 --> 00:24:50.732 development mailing list and keeping this is a job in 00:24:50.733 --> 00:24:54.774 itself, but it's really exciting for everyone, I guess. Not 00:24:54.775 --> 00:24:58.274 only that, I hope we can upstream org-ql, which will speed up 00:24:58.275 --> 00:25:00.566 agenda specifically even more. 00:25:00.567 --> 00:25:06.982 Okay. I need to fly away, but it was really nice connecting 00:25:06.983 --> 00:25:13.899 and I hope everyone has a great conference. Bye-bye. It was 00:25:13.900 --> 00:25:16.107 so good to see you. Thank you again for everything that you 00:25:16.108 --> 00:25:21.399 have done. Thanks to you both. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. NOTE Off-stream Q&A 00:25:28.520 --> 00:25:35.959 All right. Is it only the two of us now? I don't really know who 00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:40.239 else. Can you see if there's anybody else in this room? I 00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:45.079 don't know. There are like two, four, six people and Sacha is 00:25:45.080 --> 00:25:48.159 one of them, so probably five people. Oh, Sacha is here. 00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:51.999 Okay. I haven't heard her say anything, but I see her in the 00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:58.479 chat. Okay. It's the same room, basically. Hi, Sacha. Oh, 00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:02.199 okay. They're also at her pad, so we may want to finish other 00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:08.839 questions, maybe, if there are some. This is just a circle. NOTE microemacs 00:26:08.840 --> 00:26:12.079 This is just a historical question, but Carsten, I think you 00:26:12.080 --> 00:26:14.359 used microemacs back in the day. 00:26:14.360 --> 00:26:17.839 Did that have any influence 00:26:17.840 --> 00:26:23.879 on Org? That is a really interesting question. I used 00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:27.359 microemacs as my first version of emacs, and then I stepped 00:26:27.360 --> 00:26:33.359 over to Emacs. I actually did two things at the same time. I 00:26:33.360 --> 00:26:39.119 also was working with so Awk basically, that language. I ran 00:26:39.120 --> 00:26:45.599 against walls with both Micro-Emacs and with Awk, where I had 00:26:45.600 --> 00:26:48.639 the feeling I don't have enough freedom to do everything 00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:52.839 that I wanted, so I switched to Perl on one side and to Emacs on 00:26:52.840 --> 00:26:58.679 the other side. That's what it was. Micro-Emacs absolutely 00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:02.679 had the function to pull me into Emacs, But it's not that I 00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:04.759 have specific microemacs features that would have 00:27:04.760 --> 00:27:08.119 triggered me to do something for Org Mode. I think that would be 00:27:08.120 --> 00:27:14.207 the answer to your question. All right, thanks. 00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:21.639 Are you a user of microemacs, George? I posted the source to 00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:26.719 CompSource's Amiga in 86, and I was somewhat responsible 00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:31.959 for it being in the wild. Oh, I'm so sorry that I didn't, 00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:35.199 wasn't really aware that I made the connection to your name. 00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:39.719 No, no, no, no. We all moved on and the world is a better place. 00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:44.799 Yeah. No, I actually did use it for something like, I think 00:27:44.800 --> 00:27:47.440 six years as my only admin at the time before I made the 00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:51.359 switch. No, I put it out to the list. David Lawrence ran with 00:27:51.360 --> 00:27:55.399 it and you know, that was about, that was the end of it. And I 00:27:55.400 --> 00:27:57.599 actually implemented something like fly spell for 00:27:57.600 --> 00:28:02.359 microemacs. I remember doing that at some point. Yeah, no, I 00:28:02.360 --> 00:28:05.319 don't want us to get stuck on that. I don't want us to get stuck 00:28:05.320 --> 00:28:10.279 on that, so. Yeah, yeah. Good. Thank you. Thank you for 00:28:10.280 --> 00:28:17.679 Org Mode. Yeah, you're most welcome. 00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:22.199 For microemacs, actually, I also tried it once. It feels 00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:27.959 like at home after Emacs, of course, the major downside was at 00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:33.599 this point is that there is no UTF support. I think that was 00:28:33.600 --> 00:28:40.039 like, unfortunately, that that's not going to work. I 00:28:40.040 --> 00:28:43.959 think I'm also going to disconnect now. But it was really 00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:49.119 fantastic to listen to your talk. I wish you all the best. I'm 00:28:49.120 --> 00:28:53.479 sure that is a good answer. Thank you for joining, and nice to 00:28:53.480 --> 00:29:00.159 meet you. Yeah, bye. Bye. 00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:02.799 Okay, so there are still people in the room, so if you want to 00:29:02.800 --> 00:29:10.440 ask questions, feel free to do it. I 00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:12.679 think there's one unanswered question in the etherpad 00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:18.119 also. Let me see. 00:29:18.120 --> 00:29:21.639 It's probably awkward to answer. Okay, I can answer and then 00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:24.039 probably answering the answer for this one. So there's a 00:29:24.040 --> 00:29:28.519 question about, from a person, I spent some time writing a 00:29:28.520 --> 00:29:31.919 library for myself, which involved working with Org files. NOTE Q: Is there/could there be a resource with which to recommend particularly well written codebases for review by others? 00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:34.359 One thing I struggled with was finding a good source of 00:29:34.360 --> 00:29:41.599 reference code which demonstrated idiomatic usage. 00:29:41.600 --> 00:29:46.319 particularly well-written code bases for review by 00:29:46.320 --> 00:29:52.599 others? That's a good question. We have some wiki pages. 00:29:52.600 --> 00:29:57.039 I'll put it in the answer later. You can also check Org Mode's 00:29:57.040 --> 00:30:02.399 code, but usually in org-element there are good usages, and 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:06.919 in Org export. 00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:10.279 Otherwise, maybe something from Alphapapa, but I need to 00:30:10.280 --> 00:30:13.320 check that and probably reply later. 00:30:16.167 --> 00:30:23.875 Otherwise, that's all. So I'm going to end this. 00:30:52.400 --> 00:32:09.720 Bye bye.