And I believe we are live. Hi, Mats, how are you doing? Oh, I'm
fine. It's a pleasure to see you again after last year. And I
was trying to think about it. We saw you last year, but didn't
we see you as well in 2022? Yes. This is my third year. Yeah,
well, thank you for being a regular at EmacsConf. It's
always a pleasure to have you chat about hyperbole.
Although I think you're the only one chatting about
hyperbole this year compared to last year. Yes,
unfortunately, that's, yeah, Bob has some family issues.
So yeah, I'm here, but I'm here. Yeah, but we are happy to have
you here. And as I was saying before, I'm not sure if you were,
you had the time to watch the previous talk by Mohsen, you
know, you had, there were plenty of ideas, I think that were
very similar to what Hyperbole is trying to do by having
buttons and having stuff that can be in any other mode that
would allow you to supplement a coding file with extra
information. So the ideas are living on. And even though
hyperbole is one thing, I feel like other packages are also
taking a lot of inspiration for it. So congratulations on
being an inspiration, I suppose. Oh, thanks.
Unfortunately, I have not had any time to watch anything of
the Emacs conference since apparently my life is like every
time it's Emacs conference, I do something else. So I've been
just moving this weekend. So, I'm in a new apartment, but I'm
connected and everything seems to work okay. So, I can't
relate to what we said in any of the other talks, I'm afraid.
So, sorry about that. No, that's okay. No, but that's
completely fine, because you may be able to watch the talks
at any point later on, because I'll remind the viewers that
the talks are currently available on EmacsConf or the
pre-recorded one. And I think we only had one live talk
yesterday. All of them are already available with
subtitles and all the funny stuff that we usually put. So
that's an invitation for people to watch it. All right. So,
Mats, before we start with the questions, I see people in the
process of writing them. Was there anything else you wanted
to add on top of your presentation? Maybe some supplements
or whatnot? No, no. Nothing to add. Right. I mean, this year
was more a bag of tricks, some new stuff that you've
implemented in Hyperbole. And it's fun because I see the UI
that you have for some of those modes. And earlier, you
weren't able to watch those talks, but we were talking a lot
about Transient and about what it allows you to do in terms of
interactivity. I'm actually familiar with Transient. No,
no, no. It's a mode written by Tarsius, so Jonas Bernoulli,
the person behind Magit, and it's a very nice way to create
menus for interactive setups. So, if you are interested in
perhaps augmenting what you currently have with
Hyperbole, it might be nice to look into Transient because I
think this is heading towards eventually being merged into
the core of Emacs. I mean, don't quote me on this. and I'm not
sure how Tarsius feels about it, but because of the
adoption, because Magit obviously uses transient, Org is
trying to make a move towards adopting transient, it feels
like Hyperbole would do well as well to adopt it because it's
starting to become a grammar of general UI at this point.
Yeah, now when you mention it, I remember because I'm a heavy
user of Magic, of course. So I know Transient that way. I know
also that people have been complaining about Hyperbole's
menu system. You know that Hyperbole reach back to
something like 1993, so it has some maybe things that are not
modern in that sense. So we have it on the plate to maybe look
into these things and how we can sort of make things modern,
etc. Sure, but it's completely fine to take your time. You
don't necessarily have to follow the latest fads when it
comes to completion engines or interactive engines like
Transient is. I'm not actually sure how you would call
Transient. Is this a UI maker, an interaction engine? I
don't know. I'll need to ask Tarsius at some point. All
right. Okay. Okay so let's move on to the questions. We've
got a couple of them and for the Q&A we'll have about five
minutes and 30 seconds until we got to lunch. So starting
with the first question.
How is the log buffer generated in
your presentation? But it's a very quick answer to this.
We recommend at EmacsConf that speakers use the
interaction-log package, which allows you to have a
slightly prettier lossage. Lossage being in Emacs how you
call the comments that you've used. And so if you're
interested in using this for your own presentation,
interaction log, and you'll be able to find it fairly
easily.
Moving to the next question.
So the selector thing C-c RET
is similar to expand-region. How does it behave in
codes i.e functions or class?
Well I think it behaves exactly the same. I mean in the
In any sort of buffer, it might depend on what
constitutes a word, et cetera, and a sentence in the mood.
That's how I would say it. Right.
I'm just, in that sense, I'm just a user of the function. I
haven't implemented it. I haven't tested it more than that.
We can do this as a demo that you start with maybe select a
small thing and by hitting it over and over again, you select
more and more. Yeah, but it's completely fine sometimes to
merely be a user of something, you know. It's easy. It's a
testament to how amazing Emacs is because everything is
written in Lisp in the background, that as soon as you start
becoming a maintainer of something, you kind of expect it to
just be able to understand everything else. And whilst it's
technically true, the limiter here is the amount of time
that you can invest looking at the definitions,
understanding what they do, and sadly we don't have the time
to do all of this. And especially with Hyperbole, which is
obviously interacting with major modes in something that
is more involved than Org mode, for instance. We do have
another question. So, I know you Hyperbole devs are active
and interested in sharing and interoperating with other
Emacs tools.
What is a recent tool that you find exciting to
think about using in combination with Hyperbole or would
like to suggest using in combination with it? Well, lately
we've been focusing a lot of sort of trying to make Hyperbole
work together with Org Mode and in in a good way so they can
sort of, I mean... The idea with Hyperbole is not to be better
than everything else, but more to be like the glue or spider
that could integrate different modes in a good way together.
So that being top of everything. And Org is a very
popular mode, and there are a lot of sub-modes, or whatever
you can call it, with Org for information management. And we
would want Hyperbole to work together with Org in a good way,
so Org users could benefit from Hyperbole as well. So we put
in some effort in that. But I think there's a lot of way to go.
There's much more that can be done there as well because
different modes can easily compete in a bad way in the
details. So it's a little bit of a tricky thing, especially
like we have this and how probably we have this M-RET
for the action production key and that's also used in many
modes. So we would really, in the best of words, we would like
Emacs to sort of come to some agreement on using of the
M-RET in a good way for modes to sort of be able to work and
live together. Yeah, I mean it's a tough thing to share the
key bindings and the grammar of interaction between
packages because you tell me M-RET, I don't want you
to touch M-RET. For me it's just inserting a new line
and not adding indentation at the start and everyone is
going to have their own you know, feelings and thoughts about
this, so it's really hard to impose any kind of system on
this. But I'm glad to hear that you're looking into
interaction with Org Mode because I remember the questions
we were having on your first conference when people were
asking, oh I'm so glad that you're talking about Hyperbole
because the only way I'm interacting with it is when people
chat about Org Mode and then whenever we had announcements
about Hyperbole, be it on Reddit, be it on Hacker News,
people would say, but don't we already have Org Mode? And we
won't get into the topic again, because I think you've done a
wonderful job of explaining the differences in previous
years. And today, the conference, your talk at the
conference also made it obvious that it's doing something
that Org Mode is not able to do. But ultimately, being able to
interface between the two is something great.
And I kind of wanted to ask you as well the question,
because you haven't
seen the talk, but yesterday we had the announcement that
Ihor Radchenko was becoming the new maintainer of Org Mode.
So obviously, a new maintainer introduces idea of changes
of, you know, philosophy and strategy and all this. Is this
somehow on your end with Hyperbole inspiring you perhaps to
also innovate in a sense to maybe try to change the way some
things are done?
Hmm, tricky question. I know, right? Yeah, no, well, I don't
know.
I don't know if it answers the question, but we have this
idea that we meet and work from our point of view. And then we
pick up maybe details from the outside world. So we're not
heavily looking into what happens in the rest of the world
when it comes to Emacs and personal information
management, etc. But but we do pick up some ideas.
Sometimes. But yeah, we mostly do hacking and then we want to
we meet once a week and work on hyperbole and you know, so
Yeah, that's already very cool. And the reason I'm
mentioning this is not because I know that you are operating
in a little bit of a silo when it comes to all of Hyperbole, but
it's always nice for me personally to see a lot of energy
being brought in by people. Whenever there's a new major
version being published, be it Org Mode or be it Hyperbole,
people are excited. There's a lot of energy in here because
people are chatting about what you're doing. And that's why
I find that people, a new maintenanceship for Org Mode
actually benefits Hyperbole in a way because you get a lot of
excitement, a lot of people thinking and bringing ideas to
the table. And I think it's a prime time to actually try I'm
using the word stealing, but in a very nice way, stealing in
terms of floss, stealing some ideas and trying to see if you
can run with them on your own end. And that's also why I was
suggesting transient, because transient looks like it's
on its path to reach core at some point. And it would be nice if
you had the idea early on to integrate with it, because it
might save you time later on and make your user happy,
because they can find the same grammar between the Git,
between org mode, and between hyperbole. All right. Is
there... I don't think... Yeah, go on, please. Yeah, I just
want to add on that, that, I mean, as an ultimate goal, in the
far distance, we would want sort of Hyperbole or hyperbole
type of functionality be part of the core Emacs. So in that
sense, it's sort of totally sort of okay with us that
different packages steal ideas and try to merge them into
sort of the core system. Yeah. All right, I don't see any more
questions, so I think we can move to close. Actually, we're
actually three minutes over time, so I'm glad we managed to
discuss a little more, but that's fine. Mats, do you have
any last words? I'll try it out. Okay, well, then, you heard
it, everyone. Just try it out. Try it out, and if you like it,
you can join us on Sundays
Right. And every Sunday, well, if you do not know what to do,
you know, here's an idea for you. All right. Thank you so
much, Mats, for coming again to Emacs Conf. And we look
forward, perhaps, to seeing you next year. Yes. I'll be
there. Hopefully, I can see some of the presentations live
then. OK. That's OK. You've got the entire year to catch up on
the ones you haven't seen this year and next year. But you'll
have the time to catch another one live. All right. Yes.
Great! For the folks watching, we will be taking a break, a
one hour and one minute break. We'll be back at 1 p.m. EST and I
think if my UTC conversion is working right, it should be 6
p.m. UTC, so at least in one hour. All right, see you in a bit
folks! Oh yes, and sorry, I've got a little elf speaking
in my ears. In case you're interested in discussing further
hyperbole with Mats, Mats is in the room right now and I see
people have joined the BBB chat. So if you want to join and
chat directly with Mats, I'm sure Mats would be more than
happy to answer your questions. And obviously everything
has been recorded and will be published later on. But for me,
I will use the break to rest a little bit and I'll be back in the
afternoon. All right, see you folks. Bye, take a break.
Okay.