WEBVTT 00:00.069 --> 00:01.850 Troy Hinckley's project that I'm talking about. I was going 00:02.350 --> 00:22.139 to mention this in my presentation, but it's possible, 00:02.350 --> 00:22.139 theoretically, that Troy Hinckley, his project could be 00:02.350 --> 00:22.139 used as a scheme of limitation that actually runs my own 00:02.350 --> 00:22.139 version of Emacs. And although, you know, This is 00:25.478 --> 00:29.380 completely theoretical, and I don't know how difficult 00:25.478 --> 00:29.380 that would be. But if Troy Hinckley implemented enough of 00:30.781 --> 00:47.029 the R7-RS standard in Rust, it would theoretically be 00:30.781 --> 00:47.029 possible to run the Gypsum editor in Troy Hinckley's own 00:30.781 --> 00:47.029 editor. I thought that was kind of interesting, and I 00:48.270 --> 00:53.833 thought it was worth mentioning, at least in the questions 00:48.270 --> 00:53.833 and answers. 01:12.179 --> 01:14.080 I also mentioned this in the presentation. I wanted to see 01:14.940 --> 01:22.364 Robin Templeton's project presentation, but 01:14.940 --> 01:22.364 unfortunately it's going to be at like four in the morning 01:14.940 --> 01:22.364 for me. So I'm going to try and watch that tomorrow, but 01:22.984 --> 01:31.428 that's also going to be a very interesting project to keep an 01:22.984 --> 01:31.428 eye on if you're interested in Scheme. That's the project 01:33.149 --> 01:38.051 where you've got the Guylain interpreter running inside of 01:33.149 --> 01:38.051 the Emacs process. It's dynamically linked as a library. 02:04.699 --> 02:06.748 I'm ready for questions from anybody. You can ask or you can 02:07.431 --> 02:09.079 type. It's up to you. 02:32.319 --> 02:34.521 Okay, let me check the etherpad. 02:37.304 --> 02:38.245 Let's see here. 02:41.208 --> 02:42.830 I'm not sure if I'm doing that right. 02:46.373 --> 02:47.554 Let me check one more time. Oh, there it goes. 02:54.221 --> 02:55.702 Let's see, so this is... 03:00.151 --> 03:02.072 I didn't know about that first bit of history. Oh, I've heard 03:02.332 --> 00:03:09.369 RMS say that Scheme Guile is just a nicer Lisp, but I didn't 03:02.332 --> 03:09.776 know there were concrete talks attempts to use Guile for 03:02.332 --> 03:09.776 Emacs that early. Let's see, that was from janneke. NOTE Q: I'm curious to know how the hell guile-emacs deals with all of the dynamically scoped modules out there. Is there any effort to automatically modularize and namespace stuff? 00:03:09.370 --> 00:03:19.241 I'm curious to know how the hell Guile Emacs deals with all the 03:14.318 --> 03:19.241 dynamically scoped modules out there. Is there any effort 03:20.181 --> 03:24.943 to automatically modularize and name? Let's see. 03:30.523 --> 03:35.806 That might be a better question for Robin Templeton. In my 03:36.727 --> 03:46.573 own project, 03:36.727 --> 03:46.573 there's no module system for Emacs Lisp. There is a module 03:46.693 --> 03:48.234 system for Scheme. And the Emacs Lisp interpreter runs in 03:49.695 --> 03:55.158 its own environment. the require system or whatever module 03:57.068 --> 04:11.736 system that Emacs has, once it's implemented, all of that 03:57.068 --> 04:11.736 would just happen inside of the Emacs Lisp environment, 03:57.068 --> 04:11.736 which is inside of the Scheme environment. And 04:12.437 --> 04:15.898 environments are objects in Scheme. 04:21.522 --> 04:24.103 I think a more difficult question is how to handle 04:26.420 --> 04:31.942 threading, and Scheme has very good threading built in, in 04:26.420 --> 04:31.942 Serphe-18[??]. 04:34.283 --> 04:48.028 But I don't think it will be easy to write Emacs Lisp form 04:34.283 --> 04:48.028 bindings to the Scheme multi-threading implementation. 04:48.548 --> 04:50.749 Emacs Lisp was just not cut out for that kind of thing. So I 04:51.710 --> 04:59.894 think each Emacs Lisp, you could, I suppose, have multiple 04:51.710 --> 04:59.894 threads each running their own Emacs Lisp environment. 05:01.375 --> 05:02.956 Scheme would make that very simple to do. 05:06.018 --> 05:16.744 And then there'd just be a question of how you would get those 05:06.018 --> 05:16.744 different interpreters to communicate with each other, 05:06.018 --> 05:16.744 perhaps using the same protocol that's used by the Emacs 05:06.018 --> 05:16.744 server. But I haven't thought that far ahead yet. NOTE Q: Would it be possible to support a GUI toolkit other than GTK? 05:23.646 --> 05:28.709 Would it be possible to support a GUI toolkit other than the 05:23.646 --> 05:28.709 GTK? Like, how is it still supports Lucid? Yes, this is 05:31.291 --> 05:33.232 absolutely a goal of the project. I'm trying to keep the back 05:33.873 --> 05:38.416 end separate as possible. The scheme has what you call 05:39.817 --> 05:42.478 parameters. And these are like global variables that are 05:43.199 --> 05:46.221 still somewhat thread safe. And every call to the GUI goes 05:47.484 --> 05:51.225 through a parameter. So the Emacs, the interpreter and the 05:52.125 --> 05:59.367 editor logic is all in one module. And then that module calls 05:59.987 --> 06:04.309 out into a separate GUI module. And then you can implement 06:04.989 --> 06:07.690 different GUI modules. So you could have one for GTK3, one 06:08.430 --> 06:13.171 for GTK4, if you want to write the extern C bindings around Qt 06:13.843 --> 06:20.725 or full tick, that would certainly be possible as well. It 06:21.185 --> 06:32.168 would be nice maybe to have an SDL implementation based 06:21.185 --> 06:32.168 maybe on Chikiti or some kind of immediate mode GUI, 06:21.185 --> 06:32.168 something like that. But definitely GTK3 through Guile GI 06:33.808 --> 06:38.750 is the reference implementation. Things start there. But 06:41.298 --> 06:43.959 I'm very interested in supporting other GUIs, yes. Let's 06:45.199 --> 00:06:45.256 see. NOTE Q: Do you plan to provide improvements to Elisp as a language, or is the focus on a compatibility layer to facilitate doing all new extensions, etc. in Scheme? 00:06:45.257 --> 00:06:45.879 Question, do you plan to provide improvements to ELisp 06:47.540 --> 06:56.342 as a language or focus on a compatibility layer to 06:47.540 --> 06:56.342 facilitate all new extensions in Scheme? Yeah, the second 06:57.142 --> 06:57.962 one. I want to move off to Scheme. I would like for this 07:03.384 --> 07:05.264 project to try and keep up to date with each new release of 07:05.666 --> 07:10.789 Emacs and Emacs Lisp. That's a difficult moving target to 07:11.850 --> 07:14.552 follow, I realize. But to the greatest extent possible, any 07:15.152 --> 07:23.397 new features to Emacs Lisp will be pulled in from GNU Emacs. 07:25.419 --> 07:29.041 If we happen to be able to implement something cool in 07:25.419 --> 07:29.041 Scheme, and be able to port it over to Emacs Lisp, then sure, 07:29.437 --> 07:36.543 it'd be nice to be able to upload or to submit that upstream to 07:29.437 --> 07:36.543 the GNU Emacs. But I think I would prefer to have new features 07:38.584 --> 07:43.708 written in Scheme. I would like this gypsum to be more of a 07:43.989 --> 07:52.075 Scheme app platform that just happens to be able to also run 07:43.989 --> 07:52.075 Emacs Lisp. That's how I see it. Of course, this will be a 07:54.577 --> 07:56.699 community project. I'm open to debate about that if anybody 07:58.809 --> 08:02.012 wants to convince me otherwise. 08:08.439 --> 08:11.683 Why is being able to interpret all of that EL a useful goal? 08:12.464 --> 08:14.626 Sure, there is a lot of code written in Elisp. Can we 08:15.206 --> 08:17.749 consider... Oh, it's still being written. Please go ahead 08:18.390 --> 08:19.491 and finish writing. NOTE Q: Can we consider a translator like utility to convert elisp to scheme, once guile-emacs becomes a reality? 08:29.673 --> 08:35.576 Can we consider a translator like utility to convert eLisp 08:29.673 --> 08:35.576 to Scheme once Guile-Emacs has become a reality? 08:36.716 --> 08:37.076 Certainly. For the time being, I just wanted to get the 08:38.717 --> 08:42.639 interpreter running. So the actual, the Guile-Emacs Lisp, 08:44.520 --> 08:58.666 the one that was written in 2011 that I didn't write, that 08:44.520 --> 08:58.666 actually does compile to, I think it's the tree 08:44.520 --> 08:58.666 intermediate representation It's one of the intermediate 08:59.076 --> 09:03.697 languages that Guile uses to compile Guile scheme itself. 09:04.817 --> 09:09.299 So the Emacs lisp that was written before actually does 09:04.817 --> 09:09.299 that. It actually compiles and makes use of the entire Guile 09:09.339 --> 09:20.761 compiler tool chain and actually produces like JIT 09:09.339 --> 09:20.761 compilable binaries, which is really cool. Like I said, 09:23.342 --> 09:25.943 that's the one that I had trouble getting to work properly. 09:29.209 --> 09:30.890 Maybe we can follow that architecture. I'm not sure how to do 09:33.052 --> 09:45.102 that, but I would like to be able to do some kind of 09:33.052 --> 09:45.102 translating, keeping in mind that we want to have this be 09:33.052 --> 09:45.102 portable, do various schemes. And so Guile makes this very 09:45.988 --> 09:50.289 easy, but other schemes don't. Gambit might do this pretty 09:51.549 --> 09:53.530 well as well. It compiles to C and then compiles C down to a 09:53.950 --> 10:01.471 dynamically linkable library. So yeah, I think probably 10:03.372 --> 10:09.373 the most portable, I'm just thinking out loud right now, 10:10.652 --> 10:21.715 most portable implementation will just be able to 10:10.652 --> 10:21.715 translate Emacs Lisp directly to Scheme, which is not what 10:10.652 --> 10:21.715 the old Guile Emacs Lisp implementation does. That goes to 10:21.755 --> 10:26.777 TreeIL, so it's very, very Guile-specific, can't be 10:21.755 --> 10:26.777 ported. But yeah, if we could somehow get Emacs Lisp 10:28.359 --> 10:42.045 translated to Scheme and then compiled, say, in Shea Scheme 10:28.359 --> 10:42.045 or Gambit or MIT Scheme or one of those other compilers, that 10:28.359 --> 10:42.045 would be very cool. And I would absolutely love to do that. 10:44.906 --> 10:49.948 And I would very quickly accept any code into the code base 10:44.906 --> 10:49.948 that would do that. NOTE Q: Why is being able to interpret all of \`init.el\` an useful goal? 10:54.390 --> 10:56.291 Oh, and to answer the question about init.el, 10:59.207 --> 11:17.215 It's just because people spend a lot of time on their configs 10:59.207 --> 11:17.215 and it would be nice if, you know, you're starting to use this 10:59.207 --> 11:17.215 new editor and want it to be similar to Emacs users, just the 10:59.207 --> 11:17.215 Emacs community in general and people who are familiar with 10:59.207 --> 11:17.215 using Emacs. It would be more useful to everybody in the 11:17.715 --> 11:25.379 Emacs community if this were more compatible with GNU 11:17.715 --> 11:25.379 Emacs. And so that's why that's, I think that's an important 11:25.679 --> 11:27.960 goal. 11:34.465 --> 11:35.467 Question is not yet. Great. Oh, here comes another 11:38.471 --> 11:39.613 question. NOTE Q: What is the plan to handle elisp packages that depend on 3rd party/external libraries? (libgit/magit or rg/ripgrep)? 12:08.539 --> 12:17.742 Okay, what is the plan to handle elisp packages that depend 12:08.539 --> 12:17.742 on third-party or external libraries like git or magit 12:08.539 --> 12:17.742 or ripgrep? So that's going to be tricky. It depends on how 12:21.523 --> 12:26.224 these external packages are linked into emacs. If it's 12:26.844 --> 12:33.646 going to be a dynamic library like Robin Templeton's 12:26.844 --> 12:33.646 project which you load the libgit library into the Emacs 12:35.289 --> 12:41.931 process, that is going to be extremely difficult. So if you 12:44.032 --> 12:52.975 have an external library like, I don't know, libgit or 12:44.032 --> 12:52.975 what's the GUI thing? Cabal. No, not Cabal. Cairo, libcairo 12:57.736 --> 13:01.398 to do SVG graphics and so on. 13:04.483 --> 13:17.480 You can do that very easily with Guile, but then on top of 13:04.483 --> 13:17.480 that, implementing Emacs list bindings to it, I mean, 13:04.483 --> 13:17.480 you've got two layers there, and that makes things pretty 13:04.483 --> 13:17.480 difficult. So it's possible. And to some degree, maybe 13:21.935 --> 13:30.842 necessary for example, Cairo, if we want to do SVG graphics 13:21.935 --> 13:30.842 the way that Emacs Lisp does, we're going to have to have 13:21.935 --> 13:30.842 that. So that would be necessary. We would have to have those 13:32.643 --> 13:33.944 two layers. Yes, let's do that. But if it's like for Magit, 13:38.047 --> 13:50.596 you can just call out to your git process, and then you're 13:38.047 --> 13:50.596 just using the regular process APIs that Emacs Lisp has. And 13:51.451 --> 13:58.475 that can be, already we, like Guile has some very good 13:51.451 --> 13:58.475 implementations for process management. And so it would 13:59.055 --> 14:05.438 just be a matter of wrapping up those in the Emacs lisp form 13:59.055 --> 14:05.438 bindings. So yeah, dynamic libraries, I wanna try to avoid. 14:12.222 --> 14:20.366 And I would prefer to do things more through, you know, 14:12.222 --> 14:20.366 launching a child process in the Emacs process. and then 14:20.956 --> 14:24.798 communicating over the standard in, standard out 14:20.956 --> 14:24.798 channels. 14:29.460 --> 14:40.386 That's the easier way to do things, I think, because then you 14:29.460 --> 14:40.386 can just use the process library that Emacs already has, and 14:29.460 --> 14:40.386 you can just reuse all of that code. 14:43.969 --> 14:49.912 I'm not sure how ripgrep works, unfortunately, but I 14:43.969 --> 14:49.912 believe that's also a process, a child process. So, we can 14:50.412 --> 14:53.774 just reuse all of the Emacs Lisp code that does that already. 14:54.014 --> 15:05.979 We just need to make sure that the process management 14:54.014 --> 15:05.979 implementation and scheme is properly bound to Emacs Lisp, 14:54.014 --> 15:05.979 and it works the same as GNU Emacs does. Once that's all set, 15:06.360 --> 15:13.383 then these porcelains, like around git, should fall into 15:06.360 --> 15:13.383 place. without too much difficulty, hopefully. NOTE Q: Not really a question, but how about Schemacs as a name? 15:21.112 --> 15:22.593 How about Schemax as a name? I like the name. I like that name. 15:28.937 --> 15:32.920 I haven't really looked into like, is that already used or is 15:28.937 --> 15:32.920 that going to be confusing? But certainly something we can 15:33.380 --> 15:35.021 discuss. 15:38.243 --> 15:39.264 Another thing I should mention, 15:42.157 --> 15:48.278 I should probably set up a server or something like Discord 15:42.157 --> 15:48.278 or something like that. Discourse, not Discord. 15:51.619 --> 15:56.220 Discourse, the open source one, where we could actually 15:51.619 --> 15:56.220 chat about this stuff. For the time being, ActivityPub, 15:56.540 --> 16:05.562 mostly Mastodon, is how I communicate with people in real 15:56.540 --> 16:05.562 time, that or email. So if you want to get a hold of me, check 16:09.809 --> 16:15.571 the notes for this presentation and just send me an email. 16:16.752 --> 16:18.012 Any question at all is fine. If you want to contribute code, 16:19.633 --> 16:25.495 if you want to just learn how to contribute code, send me any 16:19.633 --> 16:25.495 questions. It's fine. I'm happy to answer them. And we can 16:30.256 --> 16:31.757 talk about the name as well. NOTE Q: Why is it not feasible for the Emacs layer that interprets Emacs Lisp (the core in C) ot have a Scheme interpreter, instead of using Guile? 16:45.931 --> 16:54.215 Okay, why is it not feasible for the Emacs layer that 16:45.931 --> 16:54.215 interprets Emacs Lisp, the core in C, have a Scheme 16:45.931 --> 16:54.215 interpreter instead of using Guile? Let's see, I have to, 16:55.496 --> 16:57.257 okay. Emacs layer interprets Emacs Lisp, the core in C, have 16:57.737 --> 17:05.942 a Scheme interpreter instead of using Guile. Okay, so that, 17:07.362 --> 17:13.906 the question xlarsx is asking, xlars, x, So Lars is asking, 17:14.744 --> 17:28.093 is it not feasible for there to be an 17:14.744 --> 17:28.093 Emacs layer that interprets Emacs Lisp have a scheme 17:14.744 --> 17:28.093 interpreter? This is Robin Templeton's project. And 17:30.815 --> 17:32.156 they're presenting later today. So check the roster and be 17:32.697 --> 17:41.303 sure to see that presentation because that's exactly what 17:32.697 --> 17:41.303 Robin Templeton is doing. That's not what I'm doing though. 17:44.419 --> 17:46.459 I'm trying to create something in Scheme. But yes, there is 17:48.280 --> 17:54.921 an attempt to get an Scheme interpreter to run inside of 17:48.280 --> 17:54.921 Emacs itself. And it has its own method of binding to Emacs 17:55.181 --> 18:05.323 Lisp functions and translating data like Lisp structures 17:55.181 --> 18:05.323 between Guile Scheme and Emacs Lisp. Robin will explain all 18:05.943 --> 18:08.284 of that in their presentation. 18:28.519 --> 18:33.020 OK, I think I've got through all the questions on Etherpad. 18:33.620 --> 18:35.500 But I'm going to hang out here for a bit longer. And yeah, feel 18:37.621 --> 18:46.182 free to do a video chat with me or send me more questions on 18:37.621 --> 18:46.182 Etherpad or here in the big blue button. And so I'm just going 18:47.002 --> 18:48.082 to hang out. And thanks for asking all your questions. And 18:51.663 --> 18:56.024 yeah, I look forward to working with all of you if you're 18:51.663 --> 18:56.024 interested. take it easy. Thanks so much for the talk and 18:59.935 --> 19:08.180 looking forward to seeing some of your progress as this 18:59.935 --> 19:08.180 moves forward, exciting space. We'll go ahead and leave the 19:09.261 --> 19:14.925 room open for you and thanks for offering to hang out and chat 19:09.261 --> 19:14.925 with other people that come by. Feel free to throw something 19:15.025 --> 19:18.287 in the chat if you want to remind people you're still here. 19:19.557 --> 19:25.143 Meanwhile, on the stream, we have moved along to our next 19:19.557 --> 19:25.143 talk on Rust, and that is just getting started. But again, 19:25.283 --> 19:30.549 we're continuing to record this, and I'll just keep an eye on 19:25.283 --> 19:30.549 it to stop the recording. Thank you. Thank you. It was 19:33.352 --> 19:33.853 awesome. 21:47.935 --> 21:50.558 So it seems like it's slowed down here for the Q&A. I don't see 21:50.638 --> 21:53.741 anybody else on BBB, so I'm going to go ahead and stop the 21:50.638 --> 21:53.741 recording. We can start it back up. I would say, yes, there's 21:55.282 --> 21:58.906 a lot of things you can do with this. You can handle 21:58.926 --> 22:00.627 processing. Yeah, I'm going to try and join over the chat for 22:02.029 --> 22:07.614 the next talk. I'm not sure if I can do both big blue buttons at 22:08.635 --> 22:11.538 the same time. You should be able to just watch your mute 22:13.206 --> 22:19.998 settings and mute tab settings and whatever all you have to 22:13.206 --> 22:19.998 avoid bleed through. Okay.