WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.079 You sound great. And on the stream, my eyeball says it looks 00:00:05.080 --> 00:00:08.239 great with Leo doing the streaming. So I say let's dive right 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:12.639 in. You got a long, huge line. And in order to be a little more 00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:16.279 dialectical, I'll be reading the questions. So first NOTE Q: which-key was a third-party package for a long time. Is there work to bring any other popular packages into core Emacs for Emacs 31+? (magit, counsel, etc) 00:00:16.280 --> 00:00:18.559 question, which key was a third party package for a long 00:00:18.560 --> 00:00:21.879 time? Is there work to bring any other popular packages into 00:00:21.880 --> 00:00:25.399 the core of Emacs for Emacs 31 plus, like Magit or Counsel? 00:00:25.400 --> 00:00:30.279 Uh, right. I already answered that one on the, as you can see, 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:33.999 uh, right. Yeah. Do you want to quickly read the answer so 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:38.439 that everyone, I just can read it out again. Um, as far as I 00:00:38.440 --> 00:00:41.159 remember, the one package that was being discussed just 00:00:41.160 --> 00:00:43.999 around the time that the Emacs 30 branch was cut was macro 00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:47.599 step. That's the package that was like, does an overlay, uh, 00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:51.479 replaces a macro with the macro expansion using overlays. 00:00:51.480 --> 00:00:53.799 So you don't have to pop up another buffer, modified, 00:00:53.800 --> 00:00:57.599 modified current buffer. But we didn't manage to address 00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:00.759 all the concerns in time for the Emacs 30 cuts and I believe 00:01:00.760 --> 00:01:03.799 it's sort of stagnated around that but it might be picked up 00:01:03.800 --> 00:01:07.399 anytime someone mentions it on Emacs Devil again. Another 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:11.519 package question mentioned was Magit. That's a constant 00:01:11.520 --> 00:01:14.959 discussion regarding Magit. And actually, from the top of 00:01:14.960 --> 00:01:19.039 my head, I can't recall if Magit is on NonGNU ELPA or GNU ELPA 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:22.999 right now. It's still on NonGNU ELPA. 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:29.039 For those who don't know, only packages which are in ELPA are 00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:33.039 considered for addition, considered to be added to the 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:36.119 Emacs core, to be bundled along with Emacs. And then there's 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:40.519 another totally parallel discussion about having a sort of 00:01:40.520 --> 00:01:43.519 fat Emacs distribution, I call it fat Emacs distribution, 00:01:43.520 --> 00:01:48.119 where Emacs comes with a lot of ELPA packages or the 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:55.039 pre-installed by default. Part of Emacs itself. Yeah. 00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:59.159 Maybe I could jump in with an active listening style, 00:01:59.160 --> 00:02:03.359 you know, kind of follow up question almost. You know, I 00:02:03.360 --> 00:02:07.159 understand the kind of different repositories. We have 00:02:07.160 --> 00:02:13.799 things that aren't maintained by GNU at all, you know, most 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:17.919 notably MELPA. And then we have kind of NonGNU ELPA, which 00:02:17.920 --> 00:02:21.639 is sort of an entryway project where it's not necessarily 00:02:21.640 --> 00:02:24.759 curated, but there'll be some advice given, which you can 00:02:24.760 --> 00:02:28.159 take or leave. And that's the repository where anything 00:02:28.160 --> 00:02:32.519 that was the newer repository that represents, you know, 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:36.319 help, you know, help, help supplied from GNU. And then 00:02:36.320 --> 00:02:41.319 there's the, actually the GNU, the GNU ELPA, what most of us 00:02:41.320 --> 00:02:46.479 are used to calling just ELPA. And that's what you're 00:02:46.480 --> 00:02:50.839 talking about there when you say, 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:53.959 I mean, all packages on ELPA are officially considered to be 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:56.959 part of Emacs, they're licensed under the same conditions 00:02:56.960 --> 00:03:00.359 as Emacs itself, same license, same everything. And 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:03.719 they're more likely to be, to drop, to kind of be dropping 00:03:03.720 --> 00:03:07.839 patched. Oh yeah, it's time for this to move to core. Is that 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:12.559 right? They have the legal conditions for that to be done. 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:15.039 Everything's necessary from a paperwork standpoint. I 00:03:15.040 --> 00:03:17.959 mean, but other than that, there's not really a big 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:21.159 difference between GNU ELPA and NonGNU ELPA. It's 00:03:21.160 --> 00:03:23.839 really just the main thing is this copyrights notice. So if 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:28.519 you want to add a package to ELPA, to GNU ELPA, then all 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:32.359 significance contributors have to have signed the FSF 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:36.399 copyright assignment and the package script, actually the 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:41.519 ELPA build script, checks if the copyright lines are all 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:43.879 attributed to the Free Software Foundation. 00:03:43.880 --> 00:03:52.119 But that's not going to attach, right? So because that's not 00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:57.799 in place, it'd be a lot more work to merge it to core. I didn't 00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:01.039 hear the beginning. Nevermind. I think I understood. You 00:04:01.040 --> 00:04:05.559 made your point well. Okay. All right, moving on to the 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:06.466 second question. NOTE Q: Any way to get the goodness of Emacs for android with this other stuff? 00:04:06.467 --> 00:04:08.279 When thinking about using Emacs on 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:11.279 Android, I started realizing all the other software I also 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:15.279 want on it. For example, PDF Tools wants a small additional 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:18.519 Emacs-specific program to be installed on, and notmuch 00:04:18.520 --> 00:04:21.359 obviously wants notmuch. Any way to get the goodness of 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:25.639 Emacs for Android with this other stuff, using either Nix OS 00:04:25.640 --> 00:04:29.279 or Guix or nix-on-droid to make an APK with extra stuff? Are you 00:04:29.280 --> 00:04:34.439 familiar with this topic? Absolutely not. The extent to 00:04:34.440 --> 00:04:39.319 which I have used Emacs on Android was entirely 00:04:39.320 --> 00:04:43.719 demonstrated in this video, I think. In my previous video. I 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:48.719 mean, I know it does a few scrolling stuff, but I have no idea 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:52.719 how external stuff, because I mean, Android is, it's a Unix 00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:55.439 or it's a Linux based system, but it's really heavily 00:04:55.440 --> 00:05:01.439 modified to the preferences of Google, which includes not 00:05:01.440 --> 00:05:04.719 being able to have your own software on it. Yeah, 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:08.799 definitely. All right, moving on to the next question. Does 00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:12.239 package-vc... Oh, no, that's fine. I mean, you can't answer 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:15.199 all the questions. I mean, it wouldn't be fun for me 00:05:15.200 --> 00:05:15.753 otherwise. NOTE Q: Does package-vc download a tarball from the specified git repository or clone the repository itself? 00:05:15.754 --> 00:05:17.919 Does package-vc download a tarball from the 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:21.759 specified Git repository or clone the repository itself? 00:05:21.760 --> 00:05:25.439 It clones the repository. That's the VC part in the name. 00:05:25.440 --> 00:05:33.719 package-vc uses VC, the C-x v stuff. In Emacs 29, there's a 00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:37.679 new command called vc-clone, which in Emacs 31, it was 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:42.479 actually exposed as an interactive command. And when you 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:47.319 clone the repository, or when you, you can give it any URL of a 00:05:47.320 --> 00:05:50.559 Git repository or a CVS repository or subversion 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:53.519 repository. Interestingly enough, most people only use 00:05:53.520 --> 00:05:57.559 Git, but anything that's, that implements this clone 00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:01.519 command for VC, and it could download it. So there's no 00:06:01.520 --> 00:06:05.119 tarballs involved. Which is also, one should emphasize, 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:07.879 part of the difficulty of VC packages because when you have 00:06:07.880 --> 00:06:10.759 version control and you want to upgrade it, it might be that 00:06:10.760 --> 00:06:14.399 the upstream did a force push. For that, you make local 00:06:14.400 --> 00:06:17.519 changes and then you have to merge them upstream with the 00:06:17.520 --> 00:06:21.239 upstream changes when fetching stuff. It's one of the big 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:23.559 downsides of version-controlled stuff, and I'm saying 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:26.999 this as the guy who actually wrote package-vc. There's 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:29.719 times to use it, there's advantages to it, but that's 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:32.959 something you should keep in mind, why tarballs are 00:06:32.960 --> 00:06:37.969 interesting to have, in my opinion. Okay. NOTE How is the new behavior of M-q in prog-mode (prog-fill-reindent-defun or something like that) different from the behavior of C-M-q (indent-pp-sexp) in older Emacs versions? 00:06:37.970 --> 00:06:39.639 How is the new 00:06:39.640 --> 00:06:42.439 behavior of M-q in prog mode, prog-fill-reindent-defun 00:06:42.440 --> 00:06:45.159 or something like that, different from the behavior 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:48.799 of C-M-q, i.e. indent-pp-sexp in older Emacs 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:52.199 version? My apologies if indent-pp-sexp, it's really tough to 00:06:52.200 --> 00:06:55.959 read M-x commands out loud. It's not bound to 00:06:55.960 --> 00:07:01.519 C-M-q by default, I can't tell. Let me try that command 00:07:01.520 --> 00:07:05.599 out because I've never tried it, never used it before. 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:09.079 You know, that isn't bound by default. I bind that up myself 00:07:09.080 --> 00:07:11.759 and I have that binding. I think that's, that's not right. It 00:07:11.760 --> 00:07:15.119 says so. I mean, I'm currently executing it here in Emacs and 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:20.839 it says you can also run the commands indent-pp-sexp with 00:07:20.840 --> 00:07:26.359 M-q, C-M-q. Apparently it is. I mean, I 00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:31.359 didn't set it myself. I don't know what's up with that. to try 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:35.439 and move it. And then each line started with points or pretty 00:07:35.440 --> 00:07:37.239 printed. I mean, the difference, the main difference 00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:41.279 between that and the command highlighted, what's the name 00:07:41.280 --> 00:07:47.479 again? I forget it all the time. The prog-mode command. 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:50.359 prog-fill-reindent-defun is that 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:56.319 it checks if it's in a string or not. If it's in a string or if 00:07:56.320 --> 00:07:58.959 it's in a comma, then it will refill. Otherwise, it's going 00:07:58.960 --> 00:07:59.799 to re-indent. 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:05.679 That's, I think, as far as I see, that's going to be the main 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:09.599 difference. If we have some long comments somewhere. Let's 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:15.439 try that out. Yeah, that's the difference. I just, you can't 00:08:15.440 --> 00:08:19.679 see it, but I did try it. Okay, good. Thank you. You did a 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:22.119 wonderful job describing visually what you're doing. All 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:26.759 right, moving on to the next question, and we have about, we 00:08:26.760 --> 00:08:28.759 have just enough time to cover the last three questions, 00:08:28.760 --> 00:08:32.239 especially because the next one, I can pretty much surmise 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:33.143 the answer. NOTE Q: Any plans for Emacs running in iOS? 00:08:33.144 --> 00:08:36.759 Any plans for Emacs running on iOS? Probably not 00:08:36.760 --> 00:08:40.319 because it's not, I mean, as I emphasized in the video, the 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:43.639 Emacs port in Android is completely free. And to my 00:08:43.640 --> 00:08:45.319 knowledge, that's not something that's currently 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:49.799 possible with iOS. You need Xcode or something like that to 00:08:49.800 --> 00:08:56.639 build iOS stuff. So that's a big no-no. I mean, maybe Apple's 00:08:56.640 --> 00:09:00.919 going to change their mind on that one. Well, I won't be the 00:09:00.920 --> 00:09:04.039 one liaising with Apple to make sure that they do, but PR 00:09:04.040 --> 00:09:07.599 welcomes, I guess, or motivated folks welcome. Second to 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:08.647 last question. NOTE Q: I am worried about the situation on non-free systems. There was talk about the Windows and the macOS versions being as good as unmaintained. Where do we go from here? 00:09:08.648 --> 00:09:11.719 I am worried about the situation on non-free 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:14.519 systems. There was talk about the Windows and the macOS 00:09:14.520 --> 00:09:17.039 versions being as good as unmaintained. Where do we go from 00:09:17.040 --> 00:09:20.399 here? I gather that most users of Emacs are still on non-free 00:09:20.400 --> 00:09:24.799 platforms and will remain to be there. I don't know about the 00:09:24.800 --> 00:09:28.279 last point, if that's true, because there's no statistics 00:09:28.280 --> 00:09:35.039 on that matter. But the main, I mean, someone has to, I know 00:09:35.040 --> 00:09:37.959 that Corwin is involved with the Mac, with the Windows 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:43.199 stuff. Modestly. Sure, I'd love to jump in, but I'm far more 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:45.839 interested in your thoughts than mine. Please, please 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:51.039 continue. Someone has to do the work. Eli uses, as far as I 00:09:51.040 --> 00:09:58.719 know, Eli's on the Windows XP system. So as long as he's doing 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:02.519 that, there's going to be Windows support for one form or 00:10:02.520 --> 00:10:07.959 another, or at least DOS. All right. And now you put a quarter 00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:12.439 in me, so I'll jump right back in. That's perfect for where I 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:14.519 guess I would take the question. To me, it's an 00:10:14.520 --> 00:10:17.439 accessibility issue. Think about it this way. Maybe that 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:23.319 Windows XP system is what someone can afford. Likewise, 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:27.679 from a freedom versus I have to do my job and I have to use 00:10:27.680 --> 00:10:31.679 certain technology to do my job. Maybe Emacs is what 00:10:31.680 --> 00:10:35.559 somebody can afford right? It might be the only free tool 00:10:35.560 --> 00:10:37.439 that they use and they don't have a lot of choice about the 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:40.039 operating system that they're in most of the day. In fact, 00:10:40.040 --> 00:10:42.279 somebody could be in the situation where their computing 00:10:42.280 --> 00:10:45.839 device at work is really their internet access, right? All 00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:48.279 of those situations are possible. Therefore, I tend to 00:10:48.280 --> 00:10:53.479 assume they all exist and when I ask, you know, how much It 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:58.039 definitely is concerning when we hear about kind of black 00:10:58.040 --> 00:11:02.079 holes in the brain trust of something like support for the 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:06.359 Windows port. I feel like I've heard a lot of people 00:11:06.360 --> 00:11:10.959 answering that call, but the importance of that is that it 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:14.119 doesn't stop echoing, right? Free software goes as long as 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:16.399 there are people that are irritated enough about something 00:11:16.400 --> 00:11:20.839 to sort of come hack on it. Yeah. And the same applies to Mac 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:25.199 OS. But I don't know any concrete details about who's 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:28.079 currently working on it. I can't recollect any details on 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:29.439 who's currently working on what. 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:35.279 Okay. And that leaves us with the last question of the day. NOTE Q: Is there a best practice on what Org to use when following emacs-latest? 00:11:35.280 --> 00:11:38.159 I'm a bit confused about what version of Org that I should 00:11:38.160 --> 00:11:40.919 write towards because there's Org in Emacs, the one that 00:11:40.920 --> 00:11:44.279 ships built-in. There's the one in ELPA. There's the one in 00:11:44.280 --> 00:11:48.519 Org, probably the Org ELPA, I assume. Is there a best 00:11:48.520 --> 00:11:51.959 practice on what Org to use when following Emacs latest? 00:11:51.960 --> 00:11:58.919 when following us latest. It depends on, I think, my rough 00:11:58.920 --> 00:12:02.559 heuristic is if you do use Org a lot and if you follow the 00:12:02.560 --> 00:12:06.279 newest features, then use the version on Elpa, because the 00:12:06.280 --> 00:12:09.959 Elpa version should be the most up-to-date one. The Org Elpa 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:14.999 was deprecated, to my knowledge. If that seems true, please 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:18.319 someone interrupt me before I make a fool of myself. 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:24.519 No one's done that yet. 00:12:24.520 --> 00:12:29.519 I think a couple of years ago there were chats and then we 00:12:29.520 --> 00:12:33.999 deprecated the all contrib ELPA, but I think all the ELPA is 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:40.759 still alive. I didn't know that about that. Okay, in that 00:12:40.760 --> 00:12:44.839 case, that relativizes how absolute my answer is. 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:49.559 Personally, I just use the version in Emacs, which is 00:12:49.560 --> 00:12:53.399 bundled with Emacs, which is regularly updated on master 00:12:53.400 --> 00:12:58.319 whenever there's a release. But that might take maybe, it 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:03.559 might be a short time behind the ELPA version, or the other 00:13:03.560 --> 00:13:11.879 ELPA, the Org ELPA, which we mentioned. But I'm a very light 00:13:11.880 --> 00:13:16.119 Org mode user, so please don't take my word for that one. No, 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:23.439 and I'm happy to come to you. Yeah. I 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:27.719 feel like we lost Leo again. OK. Well, that's all right. I 00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:31.279 wanted a bite at that, Apple. I'm a little bit. Yeah, I also 00:13:31.280 --> 00:13:34.239 describe myself as a light org user, but somehow your 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:37.159 comment made me think, well, maybe I do use it just a little 00:13:37.160 --> 00:13:41.719 bit more than you, Philip. 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:45.359 From my standpoint, I'm using it as a technical basis for 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:49.959 dungeon mode in order to keep the game notes for the games 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:52.479 that are made using this game engine I'm making that I talked 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:56.079 about a few years ago. As soon as you said technical grounds, 00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:59.319 you definitely use it more. Right, right. So I've studied 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:04.159 its internals a bit, and I have my own thoughts about this or 00:14:04.160 --> 00:14:06.959 that. But of course, I'm rolling with the punches because 00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:10.119 I'm just grateful that the bear dances. What an amazing 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:14.519 thing is Org Mode. But Leo knows far more than me, 00:14:14.520 --> 00:14:18.359 conveniently having his stage right here, so he can't 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:22.359 defend himself from this. But I've had thoughts around this 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:28.559 space. Are you back, Leo? Yeah, sorry, I'm back. You save us 00:14:28.560 --> 00:14:33.479 all. Maybe closing remarks. I was trying to clear my throat 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:36.079 to be very inconspicuous about me coming back, but 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:39.319 apparently I was ousted. Yeah, I was trying to answer the 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:42.239 question and I was trying to desperately save you from 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:45.999 answering, Philip, because yes, the thing about Org Mode is 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:48.879 that if you are the kind of people who tend to check out master 00:14:48.880 --> 00:14:51.919 on Org Mode, generally it's roughly pretty stable. Like 00:14:51.920 --> 00:14:54.319 when we were working with Org Element and stuff like this, 00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:56.479 Perhaps there were some elements of stability which 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:59.199 weren't there quite yet, but usually now it's pretty 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:02.039 stable. So I think that if you are really excited about 00:15:02.040 --> 00:15:04.639 contributing to Org Mode and stuff like this, I think there 00:15:04.640 --> 00:15:08.199 isn't all that many risks to just checking out Org Mode 00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:10.999 Master, so cloning the repository and just keeping up to 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:15.119 date. Otherwise, ELPA is a fairly safe bet if you want to have 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:19.839 the latest stable version. And we've got a question about 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:24.759 [??] as with Emacs itself. You can follow whatever is 00:15:24.760 --> 00:15:28.519 published in your package archives or in your system 00:15:28.520 --> 00:15:32.399 distribution package manager. You can build it yourself if 00:15:32.400 --> 00:15:36.839 you want to contribute and fix bugs, add features, and so on. 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:40.399 Yeah, and I don't think perhaps a little more with Emacs, 00:15:40.400 --> 00:15:43.439 because the features that tends to get introduced in Emacs 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:48.039 are slightly more wild. Not wild in the sense that they are 00:15:48.040 --> 00:15:50.679 less stable, but wild in the sense that they tend to change a 00:15:50.680 --> 00:15:54.119 lot more stuff. The core of Org, at least during Bastien's 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:56.879 maintenance ship, was very stable when you think about it. 00:15:56.880 --> 00:15:59.719 So things might change with Ihor right now in terms of how he 00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:02.839 wants to change some of the core behaviors, but it's usually 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:06.079 pretty stable. And whether you use the latest major 00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:09.159 version, the latest minor version, things are probably 00:16:09.160 --> 00:16:11.679 going to be pretty stable. It's like you heard me while you 00:16:11.680 --> 00:16:16.199 were offline. And I do agree with that, in case you might have 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:18.319 heard both our remarks and think we're talking different 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:22.439 angles. Actually, I think we would tend to agree on this, Leo 00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:26.759 and I. For the record, when I'm saying, oh, I have to go keep up 00:16:26.760 --> 00:16:30.719 with org, that's because org grows behaviors that I've got 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:34.639 my own. I had to figure out at some point my own way to do it, and 00:16:34.640 --> 00:16:38.119 now I'm learning how it's done, right? So I'm like, in my 00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:41.279 abstraction, blah, right? And those conversations 00:16:41.280 --> 00:16:44.279 usually end at, and somebody else took the time to figure out 00:16:44.280 --> 00:16:48.039 how to actually make Emacs do that. Go be quiet. And I do, and I 00:16:48.040 --> 00:16:52.999 do consider that under Bastien's tenure, it has been quite 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:57.039 stable. We might notice the occasional like, oh, this 00:16:57.040 --> 00:17:00.519 highlights now and that didn't, right? But very often, very 00:17:00.520 --> 00:17:03.599 infrequently is it breaking my workflow as a user, any of it. 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:07.799 It's interesting to me that this mirrors my experience with 00:17:07.800 --> 00:17:12.679 Emacs itself, where I think, in my perception, Emacs master 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:17.199 is very stable and I might notice the slight changes between 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:21.839 git pulls. But otherwise, in my experience, Org mode 00:17:21.840 --> 00:17:24.879 suddenly changes something, I don't know what changed or 00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:29.439 what's going on or what caused it, and it seemed... I 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:33.719 perceive it as being a sudden uncontrolled change or 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:36.239 something. I think that's apt. Right. That gets 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:40.159 right at it. If we're following, if we're pulling for more 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:42.759 pretty regularly, cronjob every night or pulling a few 00:17:42.760 --> 00:17:44.639 times a day or something like that, we're going to the 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:48.639 internals yeah, we'll have a different experience than, 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:51.959 you know, if we only remember to update Org once every four 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:54.759 months. It really pays to stick with everything. And 00:17:54.760 --> 00:17:59.199 suddenly lots of things might change. Whatever broke in my 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:03.439 own config, right? And so a lot of, like a lot of things within 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:06.759 Emacs, but also within the free software tool chain, it's 00:18:06.760 --> 00:18:09.559 how much you're going to invent in the config, invest in the 00:18:09.560 --> 00:18:14.199 config, might limit you know, and maintaining your config 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:17.199 may limit the depth of how far it makes sense for you to go with 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:21.759 the tool at any given point in time. Actually just looked up 00:18:21.760 --> 00:18:25.279 my org config and it's four, I said four options, user 00:18:25.280 --> 00:18:29.239 options. So that's, if that's the measurements of org 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:32.119 expertise, that's my level, it's four. 00:18:32.120 --> 00:18:38.559 That's all good then. Four of four, I'm assuming that is, 00:18:38.560 --> 00:18:44.279 right? Four of what? What was the metric there, four of like a 00:18:44.280 --> 00:18:48.119 thousand? Four out of the number of user options that Word 00:18:48.120 --> 00:18:54.239 provides. Oh, okay, I see. Four, yeah, more like 10,000. I'm 00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:59.079 there. Yeah. All right. On that note, I suggest we move to 00:18:59.080 --> 00:19:00.999 what's close because it's fairly late for me and I need to 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.119 sleep. And Philip, I think it's pretty late for you as well, 00:19:03.120 --> 00:19:07.239 isn't it? I'm in Germany, so it's about... So it is pretty 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:09.799 late. It's the same time zone as me. It's 11 p.m. for you. 00:19:09.800 --> 00:19:16.399 Truly, yeah. Yeah, so I suggest we both take the chance to go 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:20.359 to bed as soon as we can. But Philip, thank you so much for 00:19:20.360 --> 00:19:22.759 both the presentation and also the answers that you 00:19:22.760 --> 00:19:26.119 provided to us and the nice little chat we had at the end. We 00:19:26.120 --> 00:19:29.519 look forward to seeing you again next year, perhaps for 00:19:29.520 --> 00:19:34.159 Emacs 31. I'm not sure. I was chatting with wasamasa 00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:37.679 trying to make prognostics about when Emacs 30 is going to be 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:40.839 released. There's a pre-release coming soon. I should have 00:19:40.840 --> 00:19:46.719 mentioned that earlier. Well, there you go. Gone. 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:51.839 All right. Well, thank you so much, Philip. We'll be moving 00:19:51.840 --> 00:19:54.479 towards close. Give us about two minutes to get set up in the 00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:58.439 other room. And Philip, we'll see you next time. Goodbye. 00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:02.160 Bye-bye. Thank you.