WEBVTT 00:00:05.940 --> 00:00:06.060 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, we're live. So whoever's in the 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:08.380 background might be able to see you live in 00:00:09.900 --> 00:00:10.080 about 10 seconds as soon as the stream 00:00:11.380 --> 00:00:11.880 catches up. Hi Jacob, how are you doing? 00:00:12.360 --> 00:00:12.540 [Speaker 0]: Got that? We're live. I'm doing well. 00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:13.580 How are you doing today? 00:00:16.200 --> 00:00:16.400 [Speaker 1]: I am doing well and this is the very last 00:00:17.960 --> 00:00:18.160 talk of the day so I'm very excited not 00:00:20.020 --> 00:00:20.279 because it finishes but because I am tired 00:00:22.080 --> 00:00:22.580 [Speaker 0]: Yeah very understandable. 00:00:23.860 --> 00:00:24.320 Well thanks for all of your hard work. 00:00:26.180 --> 00:00:26.320 We all really appreciate it and all the other 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:26.820 organizers. 00:00:28.980 --> 00:00:29.160 [Speaker 1]: and need some sleep. Well on behalf of all 00:00:30.980 --> 00:00:31.220 the organizers thank you but you know it all 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:34.120 it makes it all worthwhile when we see the 00:00:36.280 --> 00:00:36.400 valuable contribution that every single 1 of 00:00:37.160 --> 00:00:37.660 our speakers are making, 00:00:39.559 --> 00:00:39.920 not only for recording their talks, 00:00:42.180 --> 00:00:42.380 which is a tough demand on people to say, 00:00:43.420 --> 00:00:43.920 oh, if you want to go to EmacsConf, 00:00:45.480 --> 00:00:45.980 you might want to record your talk. 00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:49.120 But then almost all of you do it and you 00:00:50.440 --> 00:00:50.640 spend a lot of time with us answering 00:00:51.580 --> 00:00:51.940 questions. So we couldn't do it. 00:00:53.680 --> 00:00:53.900 You know, we wouldn't be spending as much 00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:55.460 energy, half as much energy, 00:00:58.320 --> 00:00:58.660 if we didn't believe that it was worth it. 00:01:01.120 --> 00:01:01.320 So now it's me thanking you on behalf of all 00:01:01.480 --> 00:01:01.980 the speakers. 00:01:03.900 --> 00:01:04.200 [Speaker 0]: Well thank you that's part of what I wanted 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:06.340 to get across in my talk was that coming 00:01:08.800 --> 00:01:09.000 together and sharing ourselves and you know 00:01:11.140 --> 00:01:11.320 not just putting little little essays out 00:01:13.020 --> 00:01:13.380 there and single videos but coming together 00:01:15.720 --> 00:01:15.940 as a community you know sharing ourselves our 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:18.800 faces our voices you know it really brings us 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:20.340 together and makes everyone stronger. 00:01:22.940 --> 00:01:23.400 [Speaker 1]: Exactly, and I think it's been a recurring 00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:27.440 theme. Most of the talks we have at 00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:29.200 EmacsConf, they're usually about sharing, 00:01:30.580 --> 00:01:30.800 obviously, sharing the knowledge that they've 00:01:32.960 --> 00:01:33.340 acquired, either writing a package or 00:01:35.860 --> 00:01:36.040 learning how to use Emacs as a professor in 00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:37.700 academia or stuff like this. 00:01:39.380 --> 00:01:39.600 But what I particularly like this year about 00:01:41.720 --> 00:01:41.960 the different talks we've had is that they've 00:01:44.479 --> 00:01:44.979 really made the sharing even more obvious. 00:01:46.720 --> 00:01:46.840 We've had the mentoring this afternoon and we 00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:49.740 have your talk about using videos as a 00:01:51.100 --> 00:01:51.600 different medium to get into something. 00:01:54.020 --> 00:01:54.520 And I really think in terms of accessibility 00:01:58.780 --> 00:01:58.940 to Emacs, all of you who talked about this 00:01:59.960 --> 00:02:00.180 topic are doing a wonderful job. 00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:01.900 So, thank you again for all of this. 00:02:04.080 --> 00:02:04.240 [Speaker 0]: Thank you. Yeah, do we have any questions to 00:02:04.360 --> 00:02:04.860 be answering? 00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:08.560 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, so only 1 for now and I'll invite 00:02:10.860 --> 00:02:11.200 people as usual to please add their question 00:02:12.720 --> 00:02:13.220 to the pad or to join us on BBB. 00:02:15.920 --> 00:02:16.080 Now the chat is open if you want to join us 00:02:17.480 --> 00:02:17.980 on BBB and ask your questions directly. 00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:20.740 And in the meantime, I will read the first 00:02:22.700 --> 00:02:23.200 question. So, Kroting, 00:02:25.040 --> 00:02:25.520 are you using OxReveal to make your slides? 00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:26.960 If not, what are you using? 00:02:27.740 --> 00:02:28.240 They look very elegant, 00:02:28.820 --> 00:02:29.320 and I concur. 00:02:32.920 --> 00:02:33.420 [Speaker 0]: That's true. I am using OxReveal. 00:02:35.320 --> 00:02:35.580 I have a whole entire video on it. 00:02:36.020 --> 00:02:36.520 So if you're interested, 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:38.000 feel free to take a look. 00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:40.340 It's very simple to get started with. 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:42.780 There are a lot of different packages to use 00:02:45.640 --> 00:02:46.140 Reveal.js and Emacs. OxReveal or OrgReveal 00:02:47.320 --> 00:02:47.820 seems to be pretty easy to use. 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:49.020 So try that 1 out. Yeah, 00:02:49.440 --> 00:02:49.940 it's really nice. 00:02:54.020 --> 00:02:54.160 [Speaker 1]: Awesome. I'm going to give a little bit of 00:02:55.840 --> 00:02:56.200 time for the other people to finish writing 00:02:56.980 --> 00:02:57.260 their answer. In the meantime, 00:02:58.260 --> 00:02:58.660 I'll ask you 1 of my own. 00:02:59.620 --> 00:02:59.960 So you said you were in college, 00:03:01.500 --> 00:03:01.780 right? In com sci. Sorry, 00:03:02.980 --> 00:03:03.480 [Speaker 0]: Yeah. 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:07.460 [Speaker 1]: computer science. I think it's great to find 00:03:08.860 --> 00:03:09.360 people in computer science who have, 00:03:11.780 --> 00:03:12.280 from the get-go, as soon as their bachelor, 00:03:16.220 --> 00:03:16.360 an appetite for sharing and vulgarizing a lot 00:03:17.780 --> 00:03:17.900 of knowledge. Because it feels like if you 00:03:18.540 --> 00:03:18.760 get started like this, 00:03:20.580 --> 00:03:20.740 you're gonna have a well over time as you 00:03:21.500 --> 00:03:21.820 progress with the learning. 00:03:23.720 --> 00:03:23.860 So I'm very excited to see what you do in the 00:03:24.720 --> 00:03:25.220 coming years because of this. 00:03:26.420 --> 00:03:26.920 [Speaker 0]: Thank you, thank you, yeah. 00:03:29.700 --> 00:03:29.860 And Emacs has been like very central to my 00:03:32.100 --> 00:03:32.300 education as well. It's a great way to sort 00:03:34.460 --> 00:03:34.640 of organize myself and also it's a good way 00:03:36.040 --> 00:03:36.220 to share with other people with Org Mode. 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:38.500 I can export my code, I can export notes. 00:03:39.340 --> 00:03:39.840 It makes it so simple. 00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:42.720 My peers are also impressed by my PDF 00:03:44.260 --> 00:03:44.440 documents and whatever I can produce with 00:03:48.040 --> 00:03:48.160 [Speaker 1]: Oh yeah. If only they knew how much time it 00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:50.340 takes us to get LaTeX to behave properly. 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:52.860 [Speaker 0]: Emacs. Right, right. I see some more 00:03:53.980 --> 00:03:54.480 questions coming in I can answer. 00:03:56.940 --> 00:03:57.100 [Speaker 1]: Sure, I'll read it for you so that it's a 00:03:57.440 --> 00:03:57.940 little more interactive. 00:03:59.920 --> 00:04:00.160 So, second question. Videos can be very 00:04:01.820 --> 00:04:02.320 inspirational to learn about something by 00:04:04.860 --> 00:04:05.360 watching it used. I often find it, 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:07.440 I often find that I need to do some research 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:09.440 after watching a video to learn more. 00:04:10.640 --> 00:04:11.040 Do you give people links to relevant 00:04:11.820 --> 00:04:12.320 resources or etc? 00:04:15.060 --> 00:04:15.300 [Speaker 0]: Yeah, that's something I could definitely do 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:18.300 more of. When I make a video I try to combine 00:04:20.459 --> 00:04:20.600 all the relevant resources and make 1 sort of 00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:24.100 cohesive video. I like to think of my video 00:04:26.580 --> 00:04:26.980 as a jumping off point to the Emacs manuals 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:30.160 because the manuals are so so full but you 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:31.800 need to have a sort of a cursory 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:34.120 understanding to get started with them. 00:04:35.440 --> 00:04:35.600 And then yeah, if there are other sort of 00:04:36.880 --> 00:04:37.000 GitHub links or something like that, 00:04:38.220 --> 00:04:38.720 I like to put those in the description. 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:42.980 [Speaker 1]: Good question. Right. And I think it's arcing 00:04:44.820 --> 00:04:45.320 back also. I keep using the word arcing back. 00:04:47.420 --> 00:04:47.580 I'm sorry. It's my... Every EmacsConf I have 00:04:49.440 --> 00:04:49.640 1 word or 1 phrase that I keep saying over 00:04:51.220 --> 00:04:51.360 and over again and this 1 is not leaving but 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:53.240 don't worry we only have about 1 more hour 00:04:54.640 --> 00:04:55.140 and then you're done with me arcing out, 00:04:59.060 --> 00:04:59.540 arcing back to stuff. I think this is 00:05:03.740 --> 00:05:03.960 reminding me of both the mentoring talk we've 00:05:06.760 --> 00:05:07.120 had today about onboarding people basically 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:08.600 so that they can have a well of a time on 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:11.240 their own on Emacs and I'd agree with you, 00:05:13.180 --> 00:05:13.460 you know, as much as we like to rave about 00:05:15.140 --> 00:05:15.640 Emacs as a self-documenting editor, 00:05:17.700 --> 00:05:17.860 about how complete the documentation is, 00:05:18.940 --> 00:05:19.240 As you've mentioned in your talk, 00:05:21.220 --> 00:05:21.720 it's not accessible directly to the people. 00:05:23.620 --> 00:05:23.800 We can yell as much as we want to people on 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:26.880 IRC, you just need to RTFM or you just need 00:05:29.280 --> 00:05:29.780 to do Ctrl-H-V for the variable or Ctrl-H-F. 00:05:32.040 --> 00:05:32.420 What is a variable? I am not for computer 00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:33.540 science. What does it mean? 00:05:36.580 --> 00:05:36.780 It is really blocking a lot of people right 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:40.960 from the get-go. And I think the element of 00:05:42.340 --> 00:05:42.520 interactivity, as you've mentioned in your 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:45.800 talk, that is introduced by video just makes 00:05:47.520 --> 00:05:48.020 the hand-holding that much easier. 00:05:50.940 --> 00:05:51.440 And it's great to do it like this. 00:05:53.400 --> 00:05:53.680 All right, I think we've got another 00:05:56.120 --> 00:05:56.320 questions. What are your fellow codes of 00:05:57.500 --> 00:05:58.000 students using for their editors? 00:06:00.200 --> 00:06:00.540 What kinds of feedback do you get from them 00:06:01.960 --> 00:06:02.460 when they learn about you using Emacs? 00:06:05.080 --> 00:06:05.580 [Speaker 0]: That's a great question. 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:10.760 I think professors want to make things, 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:12.740 the entry as simple as possible. 00:06:15.540 --> 00:06:15.700 So for the first computer science course and 00:06:16.640 --> 00:06:17.140 the second, at least at Columbia, 00:06:20.380 --> 00:06:20.880 They use Codeo, which is 1 of those online 00:06:25.740 --> 00:06:26.040 whole IDEs. Now in the third course, 00:06:27.520 --> 00:06:27.680 which is sort of more the weed out as they 00:06:29.820 --> 00:06:30.040 call it, the professor gives you a choice and 00:06:33.320 --> 00:06:33.820 he says you can use Emacs or you can use Vim. 00:06:36.340 --> 00:06:36.680 And everyone uses Vim. 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:39.220 Not a single person I know is using Emacs, 00:06:43.380 --> 00:06:43.520 simply because the professor's using Vim and 00:06:45.080 --> 00:06:45.320 that's what he shows on screen and that's 00:06:46.640 --> 00:06:47.140 just what everyone else falls into. 00:06:50.220 --> 00:06:50.320 And it's also, like, they're totally in the 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:52.320 terminal, and that can be a big barrier of 00:06:54.640 --> 00:06:55.140 entry. So I think they see Emacs as like 00:06:59.760 --> 00:07:00.060 something like Vim, but it's not sort of the 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:01.960 same idea. It's not what everyone uses 00:07:03.840 --> 00:07:03.960 because it's not what's being shown up on 00:07:05.220 --> 00:07:05.660 screen. So if you're not following, 00:07:06.460 --> 00:07:06.880 like if you're a new learner, 00:07:08.300 --> 00:07:08.680 if you're not following with Vim, 00:07:10.320 --> 00:07:10.600 you might have a little bit of a harder time 00:07:12.740 --> 00:07:12.940 in these classes because everyone else is 00:07:14.060 --> 00:07:14.560 also using Vim. 00:07:19.640 --> 00:07:19.920 [Speaker 1]: Right. And I'm kind of reminded again, 00:07:21.260 --> 00:07:21.640 it feels like this is the last talk, 00:07:24.020 --> 00:07:24.280 so I'm reminiscing of all the different talks 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:26.000 we've had on the general chat, 00:07:28.340 --> 00:07:28.580 at least. And you know, 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:31.020 it feels like we had, you know, 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:34.660 this 1 talk, I can't remember the first name 00:07:36.340 --> 00:07:36.680 at the presentation, but it was about forcing 00:07:38.760 --> 00:07:38.940 people to use Emacs and not giving them the 00:07:41.860 --> 00:07:42.040 choice to do this. And I found it to be such 00:07:45.060 --> 00:07:45.420 a powerful move to do because usually people, 00:07:47.440 --> 00:07:47.720 maybe some classes are actually forcing Vim 00:07:49.540 --> 00:07:49.920 because it's a little more palatable I guess. 00:07:51.020 --> 00:07:51.520 Do you have something to say on this? 00:07:53.760 --> 00:07:53.940 [Speaker 0]: Yeah let me actually, I've remembered 1 00:07:55.380 --> 00:07:55.720 thing, I know there's another course, 00:07:58.880 --> 00:07:59.060 a fourth course you'd say in assembly and the 00:08:00.960 --> 00:08:01.460 professor suggests Emacs. 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:04.340 However I know that's just 1 professor so I 00:08:06.740 --> 00:08:06.980 think broadly Vim is more of the standard and 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:08.480 yeah what were you, can you repeat what you 00:08:09.880 --> 00:08:10.380 said about Vim being more sort of friendly? 00:08:12.880 --> 00:08:13.260 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, because it's not, 00:08:14.960 --> 00:08:15.200 okay, I'm quoting the opinions of other, 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:17.540 you know, I would hate to insult Emacs and 00:08:19.400 --> 00:08:19.840 give myself a bad rep at Emacs comfortable 00:08:23.200 --> 00:08:23.660 things. But it feels like because modal 00:08:26.280 --> 00:08:26.520 editing is usually something that people hear 00:08:28.260 --> 00:08:28.420 from when it starts looking into how to be 00:08:30.460 --> 00:08:30.920 more efficient when they read text. 00:08:32.220 --> 00:08:32.720 It feels like the first door, 00:08:35.140 --> 00:08:35.640 the closest door to this is Vim. 00:08:36.380 --> 00:08:36.880 And so a lot of professors, 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:40.220 because there's very little on-boarding, 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:41.980 I mean, I'm going to say the word on-boarding 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:43.140 and then I'm going to modulate, 00:08:44.600 --> 00:08:44.760 but there's very little on-boarding to get 00:08:47.040 --> 00:08:47.480 into modal editing. You just have your H's 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:50.380 and your J's and your K's and your L's and 00:08:51.020 --> 00:08:51.180 everything works. You know, 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:52.680 it does something, yes, 00:08:53.640 --> 00:08:53.960 the arrows are in weird places, 00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:55.580 but it does something that is vaguely 00:08:58.260 --> 00:08:58.760 logical. Whereas with Ctrl-Meta, 00:09:03.380 --> 00:09:03.560 Hyper, Super, J and then Ctrl-C and Meta 4 00:09:04.560 --> 00:09:05.060 for good measure, you know, 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:08.140 It already feels a little more opaque in 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:10.460 terms of how people are going to use this. 00:09:13.780 --> 00:09:13.940 So, I think it's also 1 good thing about the 00:09:15.860 --> 00:09:16.020 videos is that people can see you're not 00:09:17.900 --> 00:09:18.400 contorting your hands in very difficult 00:09:20.920 --> 00:09:21.420 shapes to use Emacs as the bad rep usually 00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:24.620 is. But yeah, to come back to what I was 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:27.040 saying about Vim, I just feel like they've 00:09:30.460 --> 00:09:30.760 won the battle in terms of looking very 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:34.340 accessible. And for us with Emacs, 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:37.580 from the top of our ivory tower, 00:09:39.940 --> 00:09:40.440 we see the ease of getting into Vim, 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:43.660 but we always think, but Vim script is shit, 00:09:44.700 --> 00:09:45.040 we've got Elisp for us, 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:46.820 We can do so many things on our end. 00:09:51.180 --> 00:09:51.340 So yeah, does that evoke anything to you with 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:53.160 regards to Vim versus Emacs in terms of 00:09:53.160 --> 00:09:53.660 apprehension? 00:09:56.820 --> 00:09:57.040 [Speaker 0]: Yeah, I think that Emacs might be more 00:09:59.320 --> 00:09:59.540 straightforward if you just plop someone down 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:01.780 in front of their computer because you press 00:10:03.800 --> 00:10:04.300 H, you're going to see an H on the screen, 00:10:06.780 --> 00:10:07.280 right? And Vim is a whole new modal mindset. 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:10.380 So for a student who wants to like gain 00:10:13.540 --> 00:10:13.740 efficiency, then yes, I think that Vim is 00:10:15.160 --> 00:10:15.360 definitely like, it feels like a more 00:10:16.280 --> 00:10:16.760 friendly introduction. 00:10:18.340 --> 00:10:18.600 But I think that Emacs doesn't get enough 00:10:20.580 --> 00:10:20.680 credit around here. And I'd like to see it 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:23.460 more often, because a lot of students, 00:10:25.640 --> 00:10:26.140 they're not looking to fix the efficiencies 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:28.580 in their text editing. 00:10:31.620 --> 00:10:31.780 They're looking to fix the efficiencies in 00:10:33.620 --> 00:10:34.120 how they do homework or how they do their 00:10:34.640 --> 00:10:35.140 programming assignments, 00:10:37.280 --> 00:10:37.540 and they would save time if they, 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:39.820 or at least the mentality for a student, 00:10:42.500 --> 00:10:42.720 is that if you can just get it done more 00:10:43.980 --> 00:10:44.160 quickly, like it's more, 00:10:45.540 --> 00:10:45.720 you know, you do what you're used to, 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:49.300 and Vim is just a barrier towards you know 00:10:51.040 --> 00:10:51.180 getting your work done like how do I copy and 00:10:52.800 --> 00:10:52.960 paste something it's a whole new set of 00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:55.280 challenges to learn so I think both have 00:10:56.920 --> 00:10:57.420 their deficiencies and abilities. 00:11:00.760 --> 00:11:00.920 [Speaker 1]: Yeah it's funny because I'm just 1 last thing 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:03.680 on this it feels like modal editing because 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:05.860 it is already weird from the get-go, 00:11:08.260 --> 00:11:08.640 perhaps it might do a better job of making 00:11:10.640 --> 00:11:10.760 people uneasy. You know how we say that 00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:12.100 constraints breeds creativity. 00:11:14.820 --> 00:11:15.180 Well, Vim constrains you from the get-go. 00:11:16.160 --> 00:11:16.620 If you do not press I, 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:18.420 nothing is going to show up in the buffer 00:11:19.040 --> 00:11:19.540 that you're currently editing. 00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:22.000 Whereas Emacs give you this full sense of 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:24.500 security by when you press J, 00:11:27.860 --> 00:11:28.360 [Speaker 0]: Yeah, true. 00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:29.760 [Speaker 1]: it actually inputs J. All right, 00:11:30.540 --> 00:11:30.840 moving on to another question. 00:11:32.040 --> 00:11:32.540 And by the way, we've got some time. 00:11:34.740 --> 00:11:35.240 We have technically about 6 more minutes, 00:11:38.640 --> 00:11:38.940 but I see Sasha on the other track is already 00:11:40.400 --> 00:11:40.640 answering questions that I'm in about 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:43.320 EmacsConf. So we can go a little longer, 00:11:44.760 --> 00:11:45.040 as long as I let the organizers know. 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:46.200 So we've got about, let's say, 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:48.320 6 minutes for now. And we'll see if more 00:11:50.020 --> 00:11:50.220 questions crop up. All right, 00:11:51.040 --> 00:11:51.540 moving on to the next question. 00:11:53.400 --> 00:11:53.760 Did you start those university classes using 00:11:55.180 --> 00:11:55.680 Emacs, I suppose, in your first year? 00:12:01.640 --> 00:12:01.780 [Speaker 0]: Yes, yeah, I did. I started with Emacs 2 00:12:02.780 --> 00:12:03.120 years before entering college, 00:12:04.280 --> 00:12:04.780 so my junior year of high school. 00:12:09.220 --> 00:12:09.480 And I've basically over time built up a 00:12:11.180 --> 00:12:11.680 workflow of how I will take my notes, 00:12:12.900 --> 00:12:13.400 how I will organize my classes. 00:12:16.280 --> 00:12:16.780 And now that I'm taking programming classes 00:12:18.280 --> 00:12:18.780 where Emacs might be more acceptable. 00:12:21.500 --> 00:12:22.000 It's even enhanced my workflow. 00:12:24.760 --> 00:12:25.260 Taking notes in Ouro for program assists, 00:12:27.540 --> 00:12:27.720 everyone talks about it, 00:12:30.640 --> 00:12:30.880 but from the source, It doesn't get better 00:12:32.860 --> 00:12:33.080 than that, being able to write with 00:12:34.280 --> 00:12:34.780 highlighting, with syntax highlighting, 00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:38.720 with easy exports, running inline code 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:41.380 blocks. And a lot of these programming 00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:43.460 classes, they make you code on a server. 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:45.320 And they just say, oh, 00:12:46.500 --> 00:12:46.980 SSH, and you can use Vim. 00:12:48.560 --> 00:12:49.040 I can use Tramp, and I can use Emacs, 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:50.940 and I'm perfectly at home. 00:12:52.760 --> 00:12:53.260 It's just such a seamless transition. 00:12:55.380 --> 00:12:55.760 It's a really amazing way to do school. 00:12:58.260 --> 00:12:58.580 Professors, you know, all they want is a PDF 00:12:59.220 --> 00:12:59.340 at the end of the day. 00:13:00.520 --> 00:13:01.020 They just want the paper on their desk. 00:13:03.420 --> 00:13:03.560 They're not so picky about how you get it 00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:05.340 there. They just want it in their hands. 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:07.540 So, so Emacs is, it's very usable. 00:13:08.040 --> 00:13:08.540 It's very doable. 00:13:11.280 --> 00:13:11.580 [Speaker 1]: Right. I've got a little anecdote on this 00:13:13.740 --> 00:13:13.860 because you're speaking about the topic of 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:16.280 Emacs at university from the perspective of 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:18.100 someone who is in computer science. 00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:20.340 But for me, in the humanities, 00:13:22.900 --> 00:13:23.080 I just remember those professors who just 00:13:24.940 --> 00:13:25.440 required you not to use your laptop. 00:13:28.580 --> 00:13:28.780 And I started with Emacs roughly at the same 00:13:32.460 --> 00:13:32.700 age as you did. And I was just using it for 00:13:33.160 --> 00:13:33.580 absolutely everything, 00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:35.740 for my organization, for producing papers. 00:13:37.860 --> 00:13:38.000 And to be told that I could not use Emacs for 00:13:38.680 --> 00:13:39.180 a class for my note-taking, 00:13:43.660 --> 00:13:43.860 I felt utterly naked in the face of what I 00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:46.720 needed to do. And yeah, 00:13:47.800 --> 00:13:48.120 it's great to see those different 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:49.540 experiences. And it just, 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:50.800 you're always going to be weird. 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:53.120 Like I was the weird guy using Emacs in the 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:55.080 humanities, but I would have been weird using 00:13:58.440 --> 00:13:58.940 Vim or any kind of computers with fancy 00:13:59.060 --> 00:13:59.560 editing. 00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:02.580 [Speaker 0]: Oh yeah, yeah. And I'm in humanities classes 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:04.340 as well, I'm not in a strictly engineering, 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:06.880 so people will see me writing an essay about, 00:14:07.780 --> 00:14:08.080 you know, a philosophy essay, 00:14:09.820 --> 00:14:09.960 I was working on an essay about Plato and 00:14:11.180 --> 00:14:11.680 Aristotle, and they say, 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:14.040 what are you coding, why are you coding your 00:14:16.620 --> 00:14:16.880 essay? And I say, well it's just the font 00:14:17.560 --> 00:14:18.060 looks a little bit different. 00:14:19.300 --> 00:14:19.640 Everything else is the same words, 00:14:20.800 --> 00:14:21.100 just the font looks a little different. 00:14:22.160 --> 00:14:22.660 This is how I like to do it. 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:25.760 [Speaker 1]: Oh, those pesky monospace fonts are making us 00:14:27.880 --> 00:14:28.020 pass as hackers. But for everyone who is 00:14:29.060 --> 00:14:29.560 behind us, looking at our monitors. 00:14:30.040 --> 00:14:30.540 [Speaker 0]: Exactly. 00:14:33.900 --> 00:14:34.280 [Speaker 1]: All right. A little bit of a remark, 00:14:35.760 --> 00:14:36.020 I guess, towards me and what I said about 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:37.860 Vim. So, quoting, before NeoVim, 00:14:39.140 --> 00:14:39.640 you had to do as much or more configuration 00:14:41.280 --> 00:14:41.760 to get basic editing done than in Emacs. 00:14:43.520 --> 00:14:43.780 It's also slower with modal editing compared 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:45.520 to Emacs key bindings because you have to 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:47.640 press escape and 2 keys to get things done. 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:49.540 While in Emacs, you only have to press Ctrl 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:52.360 or Meta something to move or search or 00:14:53.400 --> 00:14:53.900 whatever, and then write. 00:14:55.960 --> 00:14:56.460 And I tend to agree, I'm not familiar with 00:14:59.260 --> 00:14:59.760 the ages before NeoVim, 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:03.620 But I think we are mostly talking in terms of 00:15:04.900 --> 00:15:05.400 reputation and communication, 00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:08.480 like how is Vim considered nowadays or for 00:15:10.760 --> 00:15:11.260 the last 10 years in the mindset of people 00:15:13.740 --> 00:15:14.240 choosing or about to choose an editor. 00:15:17.620 --> 00:15:17.860 And, You know, I keep spitting the fact about 00:15:19.340 --> 00:15:19.480 VimScript being bad, but I'm going to be 00:15:20.800 --> 00:15:20.980 honest, I've never actually written any 00:15:24.180 --> 00:15:24.400 VimScript. I'm just parroting whatever the 00:15:26.760 --> 00:15:26.960 giants with shoulders I'm standing have been 00:15:28.260 --> 00:15:28.740 saying to me. And it's not very intelligent, 00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:31.280 I know, but We also have a very limited pool 00:15:34.340 --> 00:15:34.540 of time, and I also think that this is a 00:15:36.460 --> 00:15:36.960 point that your talk addresses in a way. 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:40.740 Yes, we could be starting the massive quest 00:15:42.740 --> 00:15:43.180 of reading the Emacs manual or the ELISP 00:15:45.100 --> 00:15:45.480 introductory guide or the ELISP complete 00:15:47.620 --> 00:15:48.120 guide. A lot of people are trying, 00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:49.440 very highly motivated, 00:15:51.140 --> 00:15:51.220 I'm going to get started on Emacs and I'm 00:15:51.940 --> 00:15:52.440 going to do things right. 00:15:53.760 --> 00:15:54.260 But the fact of the matter is, 00:15:56.580 --> 00:15:56.820 it's not necessarily a good use of your time 00:15:57.740 --> 00:15:58.240 to get started like this, 00:16:00.680 --> 00:16:00.840 because there are so many things you're not 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:03.660 going to understand, it kind of goes back, 00:16:04.640 --> 00:16:04.920 didn't say iBug this time, 00:16:07.700 --> 00:16:08.200 I stopped myself, it kind of goes back to 00:16:11.040 --> 00:16:11.240 this I plus 1 Vigoski proximals on 00:16:12.740 --> 00:16:12.940 development stuff that I was talking about 00:16:16.020 --> 00:16:16.520 before. The manual is I plus 999. 00:16:20.940 --> 00:16:21.140 Your video might be I plus 3 or I plus 2 and 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:23.480 the hand-holding really does wonders for 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:26.400 people to eventually get closer to reading 00:16:27.540 --> 00:16:28.040 the manuals and stuff like this. 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:31.500 [Speaker 0]: Yeah it's a great way just something about 00:16:33.160 --> 00:16:33.660 giving someone those practical 00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:35.240 demonstrations, that's something I really 00:16:36.860 --> 00:16:37.080 appreciate. A lot of these really nice 00:16:38.520 --> 00:16:39.020 presentations we've had today and yesterday 00:16:41.920 --> 00:16:42.100 show real life use cases and we get to see 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:44.480 people typing and they're working how they 00:16:46.680 --> 00:16:46.920 would normally work. And that's a great way 00:16:49.040 --> 00:16:49.200 to begin to understand how you can apply a 00:16:50.680 --> 00:16:50.800 tool to yourself because at the end of the 00:16:52.040 --> 00:16:52.360 day Emacs is a tool for us. 00:16:53.760 --> 00:16:54.060 You know we might take joy in it, 00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:55.440 it helps us be more productive, 00:16:58.040 --> 00:16:58.540 it's fun but we're using it for a certain end 00:17:00.880 --> 00:17:01.080 and you know if we how we can understand to 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:03.280 get to those ends and what those ends might 00:17:05.740 --> 00:17:06.240 even be. It's just great to see other people 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:07.940 bring that forth for you. 00:17:12.380 --> 00:17:12.619 [Speaker 1]: Okay, great. Well, I don't see any more 00:17:13.980 --> 00:17:14.480 questions in the chat currently, 00:17:17.020 --> 00:17:17.160 and I don't see anyone who's joined us on the 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:19.760 blue button. We are near the time that I said 00:17:22.420 --> 00:17:22.920 we've got about 40 seconds to go until we 00:17:24.060 --> 00:17:24.400 were due to end. Jacob, 00:17:26.099 --> 00:17:26.240 I kind of want to give you the microphone for 00:17:27.339 --> 00:17:27.500 the end. Do you have anything to say? 00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:28.680 Like you've talked about your YouTube 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:30.720 channel, we've already ensured that the links 00:17:31.960 --> 00:17:32.360 will be everywhere on the talk page, 00:17:34.280 --> 00:17:34.640 in the pad, on IRC. But is there anything 00:17:35.540 --> 00:17:35.740 else you'd like to add? 00:17:37.120 --> 00:17:37.620 Because you're the last speaker of EmacsCon, 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:40.140 and you've got the tough responsibility of 00:17:42.040 --> 00:17:42.540 finishing it. 00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:45.920 [Speaker 0]: Oh, well, that's not tough at all when we've 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:47.960 had 2 days. I mean, so many people, 00:17:51.300 --> 00:17:51.440 so many presenters coming together and like I 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:53.140 said right at the beginning to Leo, 00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:55.200 putting your face out there, 00:17:56.180 --> 00:17:56.680 putting your voice out there, 00:17:57.620 --> 00:17:58.120 putting yourself out there, 00:18:00.060 --> 00:18:00.380 it's such a great way to come together 00:18:02.080 --> 00:18:02.580 because Emacs is not the standard. 00:18:04.540 --> 00:18:04.820 You know, I've tried to teach my friends 00:18:06.040 --> 00:18:06.540 Emacs, I've tried to show it to them. 00:18:08.360 --> 00:18:08.480 You know, some people you get it or you 00:18:10.320 --> 00:18:10.600 don't. And the people who get it, 00:18:11.740 --> 00:18:12.240 we're not all in the same place. 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:13.940 And it's great. 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:15.860 [Speaker 1]: I'm interrupting you for a second because I 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:18.460 think we were supposed to kill the the cron 00:18:20.220 --> 00:18:20.720 which starts the next meeting and it hasn't. 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:22.940 Let me try to fix it. I'll talk to production 00:18:25.360 --> 00:18:25.860 [Speaker 0]: Do I wait or keep going? 00:18:27.360 --> 00:18:27.560 [Speaker 1]: in a second. Just wait a bit. 00:18:29.260 --> 00:18:29.440 I'm very sorry. I've given you the mic and 00:18:35.280 --> 00:18:35.440 then it just... Okay let me just check your 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:35.940 production. 00:18:59.660 --> 00:18:59.720 What? All right, Jason. 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:01.120 All right, Jacob, I'm going to put us 00:19:02.080 --> 00:19:02.320 manually back on track. 00:19:03.080 --> 00:19:03.580 So give me just a second. 00:19:04.220 --> 00:19:04.720 [Speaker 0]: Right. 00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:09.740 [Speaker 1]: I'm going to manually type the URL, 00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:12.720 because it's a janky setup that we've got 00:19:13.980 --> 00:19:14.440 right now, when whenever it's not working. 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:20.900 All right. So tps slash slash bbb emacs first 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:23.500 dot org html. No, that's not the 1. 00:19:27.180 --> 00:19:27.440 Let me try to type it. 00:19:27.900 --> 00:19:28.400 Probably. Bbbemaxfirst. 00:19:42.700 --> 00:19:43.180 L5H, R5D, BH0 Okay, we're getting back Okay, 00:19:44.380 --> 00:19:44.740 sorry folks about this We are, 00:19:45.360 --> 00:19:45.860 Jacob, We're back online. 00:19:46.800 --> 00:19:47.080 I'm really sorry about this. 00:19:49.040 --> 00:19:49.540 It's just that Sasha's script kicked in. 00:19:51.140 --> 00:19:51.280 I did tell you we were supposed to finish at 00:19:53.940 --> 00:19:54.060 30. And because Sasha is busy presenting in 00:19:54.940 --> 00:19:55.320 the other room, sadly, 00:19:57.100 --> 00:19:57.400 we got yanked again. So Jacob, 00:19:58.280 --> 00:19:58.780 I'm very sorry for the interruption. 00:20:01.220 --> 00:20:01.560 And you were retelling people about something 00:20:02.320 --> 00:20:02.820 you told me during the check-ins. 00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:04.940 Do you mind restarting this? 00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:09.660 [Speaker 0]: Yeah, sure. Well, you said I have the no 00:20:12.180 --> 00:20:12.480 small task of making the last words from 00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:14.640 presenters and not the organizers at 00:20:16.260 --> 00:20:16.500 EmacsConf. And I said, 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:18.380 well, that's not hard at all. 00:20:20.540 --> 00:20:20.760 How many speakers have we had? 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:24.860 30? And it's so incredible these past, 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:27.080 you know, today and yesterday to have all 00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:29.960 been able to come together and not just share 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:34.420 our ideas and our code and how we do things, 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:38.300 but to share our faces and our voices and our 00:20:39.780 --> 00:20:40.120 lives, you know a little bit of our lives. 00:20:42.100 --> 00:20:42.380 You know to have the passion to even spend 00:20:44.900 --> 00:20:45.400 the time to on your weekend to watch this 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:47.660 means that you have some sort of care about 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:49.660 Emacs and it adds to your life. 00:20:51.820 --> 00:20:52.080 And you know those Emacs people aren't 00:20:53.620 --> 00:20:53.980 everywhere. I've tried to bring my friends 00:20:56.040 --> 00:20:56.320 onto Emacs and it seems like you know you're 00:20:58.900 --> 00:20:59.220 an Emacs person or you're not really an Emacs 00:21:02.360 --> 00:21:02.640 person. And those Emacs people can be really 00:21:04.840 --> 00:21:05.000 spread out. So it's great that we're able to 00:21:07.900 --> 00:21:08.000 come together and share a little bit of 00:21:09.760 --> 00:21:10.260 ourselves, a little bit of how we do things. 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:12.720 And like I said in my talk, 00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:15.880 just increase our own joy in Emacs by coming 00:21:19.360 --> 00:21:19.540 together and being able to share our joy in 00:21:21.760 --> 00:21:21.900 Emacs. And of course, thank you to all the 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:25.120 organizers and everyone who's contributed in 00:21:27.980 --> 00:21:28.380 any way. It means a lot to even the smallest 00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:30.200 member, the biggest member of our community. 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:33.700 We're all really glad to be able to come 00:21:36.300 --> 00:21:36.520 together like this and share and meet each 00:21:37.820 --> 00:21:38.320 other and give nice talks. 00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:40.440 [Speaker 1]: Well, thank you so much, 00:21:42.340 --> 00:21:42.780 Jacob. And perhaps to reassure people, 00:21:44.900 --> 00:21:45.060 because yes, right now it feels like we are 00:21:47.040 --> 00:21:47.300 legions, all of us here in the same room 00:21:47.960 --> 00:21:48.400 watching the same thing. 00:21:50.740 --> 00:21:50.900 We are the Emacs' and that's a very good 00:21:52.540 --> 00:21:52.840 feeling to have. But you know, 00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:55.140 first, there's 1 thing that is certain, 00:21:58.380 --> 00:21:58.660 almost 99% certain, it's the fact that next 00:22:00.300 --> 00:22:00.800 year there'll probably be another EmacsConf 00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:03.340 and there will be more Emacs versions, 00:22:04.540 --> 00:22:04.940 there will be more augmented versions, 00:22:07.300 --> 00:22:07.480 there will be more people doing cool stuff on 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:12.040 Melpa, on ELPA, etc. So it is still a vibrant 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:14.700 community. But in case you're craving this 00:22:17.260 --> 00:22:17.760 little extra in-person stuff, 00:22:20.280 --> 00:22:20.500 Sash and myself, we are maintaining a list of 00:22:21.560 --> 00:22:21.820 all the Emacs user group. 00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:23.080 This is on the Emacs wiki. 00:22:24.140 --> 00:22:24.440 This is what I'm sharing on my screen 00:22:27.500 --> 00:22:27.720 currently. And we try to organize them by 00:22:30.100 --> 00:22:30.340 regional region, sorry, 00:22:31.560 --> 00:22:32.020 parts of the world like North America, 00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:33.120 South America, Europe, 00:22:36.300 --> 00:22:36.680 Africa, Asia. And we have a list of upcoming 00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:39.500 events and a lot of them are still online. 00:22:41.420 --> 00:22:41.920 Ever since we had the entire pandemic stuff, 00:22:46.940 --> 00:22:47.440 a lot of the workshops moved online and, 00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:50.320 sorry, I had someone whispering in my ear. 00:22:53.100 --> 00:22:53.400 A lot of them moved online and they are still 00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:55.080 online now because they've realized it's a 00:22:57.100 --> 00:22:57.280 very great way to get more people in the same 00:22:59.640 --> 00:22:59.960 place. And whilst it's great to have 00:23:01.560 --> 00:23:01.920 in-person meetings, We do this with Emacs 00:23:05.140 --> 00:23:05.340 Paris. Emacs Paris actually is happening is 00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:07.840 it? I think, oh I'm going to need to tell 00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:10.280 Sasha that apparently yes we do not have the 00:23:12.380 --> 00:23:12.600 next event for Emacs Paris which is next 00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:15.140 Tuesday and it is in person but for everyone 00:23:18.580 --> 00:23:18.740 and including you Jacob if you find a 00:23:20.460 --> 00:23:20.640 workshop in North America that is working for 00:23:22.540 --> 00:23:23.020 you, I'm thinking about Emacs SF, 00:23:24.660 --> 00:23:24.940 which I've attended multiple times, 00:23:27.980 --> 00:23:28.220 and Emacs Austin as well, 00:23:29.060 --> 00:23:29.340 that I've been to once, 00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:31.780 I think, It would be a lovely experience and 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:34.540 a way to, most of them are every month, 00:23:36.040 --> 00:23:36.160 it would be a good way for you to stay in 00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:39.440 touch and to continue this sense of 00:23:40.580 --> 00:23:41.080 in-person-ness about Emacs. 00:23:46.560 --> 00:23:46.800 [Speaker 0]: Wonderful. All right, thank you so much. 00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:49.400 Should I drop off of our call now and let you 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:50.500 close things up? 00:23:52.600 --> 00:23:52.760 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, we're probably gonna close thing up. 00:23:53.600 --> 00:23:53.940 Let me just check on Sasha. 00:23:55.380 --> 00:23:55.560 Sasha is obviously answering many many 00:23:57.180 --> 00:23:57.660 questions about how we are organizing 00:23:59.540 --> 00:23:59.640 EmacsConf. So Jacob, I'm gonna let you go. 00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:01.680 Thank you so much for your presentation and 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:03.920 your answers. And maybe we'll see you next 00:24:05.020 --> 00:24:05.240 year. Or maybe a workshop. 00:24:06.820 --> 00:24:07.320 [Speaker 0]: Who knows? I'm so lucky I got you as my Q&A. 00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:10.760 When I saw you at my first Emacs Conf 2 years 00:24:12.740 --> 00:24:13.240 ago, I thought, maybe this guy will do mine. 00:24:18.840 --> 00:24:19.240 [Speaker 1]: Very nice. Thank you. I'm glad I was able to 00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:20.280 generate such a feeling. 00:24:21.600 --> 00:24:22.100 All right, I'll get going now. 00:24:23.260 --> 00:24:23.760 Jacob, have a wonderful evening. 00:24:23.940 --> 00:24:24.140 [Speaker 0]: And here you are. You too, 00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:24.900 see you later. 00:24:28.140 --> 00:24:28.320 [Speaker 1]: Bye-bye. And folks, what are we going to do 00:24:30.300 --> 00:24:30.520 right now? I'm going to set everything up so 00:24:32.520 --> 00:24:33.020 that we can get Sasha finished on the talk. 00:24:34.840 --> 00:24:35.060 If you're watching, squinting with both 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:38.080 streams, you can go to Sasha's room, 00:24:39.520 --> 00:24:40.020 I mean, the development track, 00:24:42.180 --> 00:24:42.680 to maybe catch some of the answers by Sasha. 00:24:45.040 --> 00:24:45.160 Otherwise, we'll be back in roughly 5 to 10 00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:47.120 minutes to do the closing remarks on this 00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:48.040 channel. In the meantime, 00:24:48.840 --> 00:24:49.340 I'll put on some music. 00:24:51.300 --> 00:24:51.800 So bear with us and I'll see you shortly. 00:25:15.660 --> 00:25:16.160 And closing here. This BBB recording. 00:25:16.360 --> 00:25:16.860 Yay!