WEBVTT 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:09.880 [Speaker 0]: 2 seconds. And I think we are live. 00:00:10.760 --> 00:00:11.260 Hi, Jeremy, how are you doing? 00:00:11.840 --> 00:00:12.040 [Speaker 1]: All right. I'm doing all right. 00:00:12.380 --> 00:00:12.880 How about you? 00:00:14.759 --> 00:00:15.060 [Speaker 0]: I'm doing great as well. 00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:16.640 I'm really happy to see all the talk that 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:19.100 we're having. And I was particularly excited 00:00:21.880 --> 00:00:22.240 when I got your proposal for this talk 00:00:24.080 --> 00:00:24.279 because mentoring, as I was telling you 00:00:25.040 --> 00:00:25.540 during the check-in process, 00:00:27.360 --> 00:00:27.779 is a subject dear to my heart. 00:00:28.700 --> 00:00:29.200 So I'm really excited, 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:30.920 not only for the talk that you've just done, 00:00:32.200 --> 00:00:32.360 but also for the question that people are 00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:33.380 going to ask you. 00:00:35.760 --> 00:00:36.020 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, I'm looking forward to answering some 00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:39.880 questions. Mentoring is also something near 00:00:43.860 --> 00:00:44.320 and dear. Something I did not mention is when 00:00:45.620 --> 00:00:45.820 folks would ask me, like, 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:47.460 what was your most important class? 00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:49.199 Or I said, oh, easy, easy, 00:00:50.180 --> 00:00:50.680 easy, high school English. 00:00:54.160 --> 00:00:54.480 Like, it's my whatever your primary written 00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:56.820 and spoken languages I think is the most 00:00:58.860 --> 00:00:59.360 useful skill as a programmer 00:01:05.379 --> 00:01:05.580 [Speaker 0]: right so as usual people if you want to ask 00:01:09.520 --> 00:01:09.660 questions to Jeremy, feel free to find the 00:01:11.440 --> 00:01:11.940 link to the other pad either on the talk page 00:01:15.440 --> 00:01:15.720 or on IRC. We're also going to open the chat 00:01:17.320 --> 00:01:17.720 so that people can join us and ask questions. 00:01:20.380 --> 00:01:20.660 Let me just make sure that I tell Sasha can 00:01:25.440 --> 00:01:25.580 you open ID Mentor. All right so in the 00:01:27.320 --> 00:01:27.520 meantime what we'll do is that I'll be 00:01:29.660 --> 00:01:29.860 reading questions of the pad and Jeremy will 00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:31.480 be answering them whilst we wait for you to 00:01:32.800 --> 00:01:33.280 join. Now just to be clear with the time, 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:34.820 we have a little bit of time now, 00:01:36.040 --> 00:01:36.540 a little more time than before. 00:01:39.520 --> 00:01:39.720 We have 22 minutes, so until 10 of the next 00:01:41.260 --> 00:01:41.400 hours to answer as many questions as 00:01:42.520 --> 00:01:42.900 possible. And believe me, 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:45.200 if you people watching right now are not 00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:47.440 asking questions, I will be asking plenty of 00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:50.340 them. So please, save Jeremy from my 00:01:53.800 --> 00:01:54.300 [Speaker 1]: I look forward to it. 00:01:55.320 --> 00:01:55.820 [Speaker 0]: inquisitive mind. All right. 00:01:56.960 --> 00:01:57.460 Starting with the first question, 00:01:59.240 --> 00:01:59.680 a very trivial 1, perhaps, 00:02:01.720 --> 00:02:01.920 but always 1 that I ask myself when I look at 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:04.340 a keyboard. Regarding super key, 00:02:05.980 --> 00:02:06.480 which key do you bind to super? 00:02:09.620 --> 00:02:10.120 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, so my left command, 00:02:12.180 --> 00:02:12.680 which is on a Mac keyboard, 00:02:16.620 --> 00:02:17.120 so the key right to the left of the space bar 00:02:20.860 --> 00:02:21.000 is super. And the key immediately to the 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:23.400 right of spacebar, which is the right command 00:02:24.320 --> 00:02:24.820 key, is bound to hyper, 00:02:28.140 --> 00:02:28.640 which opens up a whole new suite of keys. 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:31.280 And I thought it would take a little bit to 00:02:33.160 --> 00:02:33.660 get used to, but it's been amazing. 00:02:37.800 --> 00:02:38.300 So I definitely recommend having a hyper 00:02:38.440 --> 00:02:38.940 binding. 00:02:42.440 --> 00:02:42.720 [Speaker 0]: I will, yes. I was also going to say super 00:02:43.860 --> 00:02:44.160 binding. No, it's a hyper binding. 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:45.040 We already have super. 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:47.280 It's your Windows key or your Linux key or 00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:48.740 whatever you want to call it. 00:02:51.140 --> 00:02:51.640 But I will warn people though, 00:02:57.720 --> 00:02:58.200 it's the gateway into fancy keyboard setups 00:03:00.900 --> 00:03:01.400 because it starts, it's the Trojan horse of 00:03:02.700 --> 00:03:03.140 fancy keyboard setup. Just, 00:03:04.320 --> 00:03:04.820 oh I wish I could have another modifier. 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:07.280 And then many years later, 00:03:09.160 --> 00:03:09.280 you find yourself with this little thing that 00:03:11.260 --> 00:03:11.760 I'm showing, which is a fully customized QMK 00:03:12.100 --> 00:03:12.600 keyboard. 00:03:13.540 --> 00:03:14.040 [Speaker 2]: All right. 00:03:18.200 --> 00:03:18.700 [Speaker 1]: Following on that, then meta is to the left 00:03:21.880 --> 00:03:22.080 of super, and then control is to the left of 00:03:26.720 --> 00:03:26.940 meta. And also, caps lock maps to control as 00:03:31.380 --> 00:03:31.620 well. Definitely tried a bunch of tap for 00:03:35.460 --> 00:03:35.940 this and that on a programmable keyboard, 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:39.520 but I have settled on keep it simple and use 00:03:41.580 --> 00:03:41.780 something like carabiner elements to do most 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:46.640 [Speaker 0]: Right. It's good that you were able to stop 00:03:48.480 --> 00:03:48.760 there. I wish I'd stopped there at some point 00:03:50.940 --> 00:03:51.340 [Speaker 1]: of the mapping. It was a terrible moment 00:03:52.900 --> 00:03:53.000 where I'm like, oh, what have I done when I 00:03:53.760 --> 00:03:54.200 was trying to type once? 00:03:57.500 --> 00:03:58.000 [Speaker 0]: in my life. All right, 00:03:58.920 --> 00:03:59.420 moving on to the next question. 00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:01.560 Great talk. What's the package you used to 00:04:02.120 --> 00:04:02.620 make the org slide? 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:03.740 [Speaker 1]: So yeah, it's great. Yeah, 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:13.940 so I am using Protz Logos and have, 00:04:15.660 --> 00:04:16.160 I think, like, Olivet mode. 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:20.140 I'll post a link to the configuration for 00:04:21.019 --> 00:04:21.260 turning it on and off. 00:04:24.280 --> 00:04:24.680 But it's basically narrow region to an org 00:04:27.940 --> 00:04:28.220 heading, which is, I find that to be super 00:04:30.300 --> 00:04:30.800 helpful. Don't have to fiddle with it. 00:04:32.900 --> 00:04:33.120 [Speaker 0]: Right, just to be clear, 00:04:34.920 --> 00:04:35.140 it's Olivetti, right? I think that's the... 00:04:36.460 --> 00:04:36.960 [Speaker 1]: Oh yeah, Olivetti, yeah. 00:04:39.960 --> 00:04:40.120 [Speaker 0]: A typical Italian word that is really tough 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:42.880 to pronounce between Europeans and people in 00:04:46.080 --> 00:04:46.400 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, I had a... For some reason I dropped 00:04:48.940 --> 00:04:49.440 the I at the end. So in my head 00:04:52.660 --> 00:04:52.800 [Speaker 0]: the US. Yeah, moving to the next question if 00:04:54.440 --> 00:04:54.800 people do get interested in picking up emacs 00:04:56.520 --> 00:04:56.680 because of what they see you do How do you 00:04:58.260 --> 00:04:58.440 recommend they say they get into it? 00:04:58.440 --> 00:04:58.940 Oh 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:06.020 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, so I've been I think a lot of it comes 00:05:09.620 --> 00:05:09.780 down to what are the problems that they're 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:11.880 trying to solve. And so I walked them through 00:05:15.460 --> 00:05:15.660 my journey. I worked in TextMate for a long 00:05:16.980 --> 00:05:17.480 time, then Sublime, then Atom. 00:05:20.220 --> 00:05:20.720 And then in 2020, I hopped over to Emacs, 00:05:25.080 --> 00:05:25.580 started writing in it and I chose Space Max 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:27.180 and then I chose Doom. 00:05:28.140 --> 00:05:28.640 And then I was like, wait, 00:05:33.080 --> 00:05:33.280 start over, erase everything and just do the 00:05:36.620 --> 00:05:36.760 tutorial. So I did the tutorial and then I 00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:38.000 started writing and I was like, 00:05:39.520 --> 00:05:40.020 oh, I really want this functionality. 00:05:43.380 --> 00:05:43.580 And so I went and I looked for it and I 00:05:44.060 --> 00:05:44.560 installed the package. 00:05:46.060 --> 00:05:46.560 And then I got the functionality, 00:05:47.960 --> 00:05:48.120 went back to writing, and I'm like, 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:50.080 oh, my editor should really be able to do 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:52.500 this. And I thought about it. 00:05:55.380 --> 00:05:55.520 So a lot of it came down to the experience of 00:05:56.320 --> 00:05:56.820 what they're trying to accomplish. 00:06:00.900 --> 00:06:01.260 And really helping ask them that. 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:04.900 I had 1 mentee had used Vim for a long time 00:06:07.700 --> 00:06:07.940 and then was exploring using Evil Mode and 00:06:13.100 --> 00:06:13.260 Emacs and we had conversations and it was 00:06:16.840 --> 00:06:17.220 like go back to Vim like you were using VS 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:19.280 Code just go back to Vim and they went back 00:06:20.980 --> 00:06:21.420 to Vim and then they started writing, 00:06:22.760 --> 00:06:23.260 well, they went to NeoVim and they started 00:06:27.620 --> 00:06:27.900 writing Lua plugins for stuff and it just 00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:29.980 helped free them and they gained that 00:06:31.320 --> 00:06:31.820 ownership in their text editor. 00:06:37.520 --> 00:06:37.660 So I try to have them think through what are 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:40.440 the common tasks that they're trying to 00:06:44.180 --> 00:06:44.440 accomplish and then thinking in terms of 00:06:46.320 --> 00:06:46.480 that. So instead of going and finding a 00:06:48.340 --> 00:06:48.560 solution, understand the problems they're 00:06:52.180 --> 00:06:52.320 experiencing, which tends to be what we 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:53.860 should do in software development. 00:06:57.720 --> 00:06:58.220 Instead of implementing the solve a problem. 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:02.500 Sometimes It's fun to implement an idea. 00:07:04.840 --> 00:07:05.220 [Speaker 0]: Yeah, I think it's really the crux, 00:07:06.740 --> 00:07:07.120 really, when it comes to software 00:07:08.760 --> 00:07:09.060 development, because what is at the crux of 00:07:09.520 --> 00:07:09.960 any kind of engineering? 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:11.840 Well, it's the problem you're trying to 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:13.680 solve. If you've got 2 islands and you need 00:07:14.440 --> 00:07:14.860 to join them up together, 00:07:15.840 --> 00:07:16.340 well, I need to build a bridge. 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:17.660 Now, obviously with software, 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:19.940 we have problems that defy the law of 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:21.840 physics, which is great because we get very 00:07:23.520 --> 00:07:23.720 complex problems that are very exciting to 00:07:26.380 --> 00:07:26.880 solve. But when it comes to onboarding people 00:07:28.180 --> 00:07:28.680 into those ways of solving problems, 00:07:29.540 --> 00:07:30.040 well, I think mentoring, 00:07:32.980 --> 00:07:33.480 The key behind mentoring is that together, 00:07:35.280 --> 00:07:35.460 we're going to look at a problem and we're 00:07:37.200 --> 00:07:37.680 going to try to see how high would fix it. 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:40.740 And you're going to try to appreciate whether 00:07:42.280 --> 00:07:42.440 this is something you would do as well or 00:07:43.260 --> 00:07:43.760 would like to do. 00:07:50.080 --> 00:07:50.580 [Speaker 1]: Yep, Absolutely. Yeah, 00:07:54.340 --> 00:07:54.480 it's really taking time to walk with them on 00:07:56.500 --> 00:07:57.000 the journey to understand what's frustrating 00:07:59.700 --> 00:08:00.040 them. I have a coworker we've been working 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:01.740 together for a very long time. 00:08:05.280 --> 00:08:05.780 She is not a fast navigator of her editor, 00:08:08.860 --> 00:08:09.200 but as we've talked, that's not where she's 00:08:09.960 --> 00:08:10.460 looking to get better. 00:08:17.380 --> 00:08:17.680 She's looking to get better at asking the 00:08:20.500 --> 00:08:20.740 questions of the clients early so that we 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:23.660 don't go down long paths of implementation. 00:08:27.940 --> 00:08:28.320 So it's been great because she's not looking 00:08:29.820 --> 00:08:30.060 to get better at her text editor. 00:08:32.500 --> 00:08:33.000 She's adequate for how she navigates. 00:08:34.700 --> 00:08:34.900 Other people look and they're like, 00:08:35.740 --> 00:08:36.179 man, I want to do it faster. 00:08:36.820 --> 00:08:37.120 I want to do it different. 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:38.340 I want to do it better. 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:39.980 And then we have a different conversation. 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:44.720 [Speaker 0]: Right. All right. Moving on to the next 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:47.320 question. I've been using Emacs for about 30 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:49.240 years and I find it really difficult to 00:08:50.860 --> 00:08:51.200 figure out how to help people get started 00:08:54.400 --> 00:08:54.600 with it So I guess my question is the same as 00:08:55.680 --> 00:08:55.900 the green question right about it. 00:08:57.900 --> 00:08:58.100 I think it's slightly different though You 00:09:00.860 --> 00:09:01.360 could it is more about well go on please. 00:09:01.500 --> 00:09:02.000 Yeah 00:09:06.900 --> 00:09:07.400 [Speaker 1]: so My wife a while ago, 00:09:10.680 --> 00:09:11.180 talked about the idea of, 00:09:15.860 --> 00:09:16.260 relative to anybody, I am an expert or 00:09:19.020 --> 00:09:19.200 slightly more informed on a topic than the 00:09:20.380 --> 00:09:20.880 person quote behind me. 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:22.600 And there's a person ahead of me who's 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:24.740 slightly more informed than I am. 00:09:27.880 --> 00:09:28.120 And so what we're looking at is perhaps with 00:09:28.820 --> 00:09:29.320 30 years of experience, 00:09:32.580 --> 00:09:32.780 introducing someone to Emacs might be 00:09:35.780 --> 00:09:35.920 difficult because you've you're too much of 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:41.320 an expert. So maybe the there's a an idea of 00:09:42.380 --> 00:09:42.880 like what are the principles of pedagogy. 00:09:45.180 --> 00:09:45.360 I know we that was talked about yesterday in 00:09:47.180 --> 00:09:47.300 a presentation about like here's a 00:09:49.160 --> 00:09:49.280 constraint, you're using Emacs for the 00:09:54.660 --> 00:09:54.880 course. But so it's that idea of sharing what 00:09:56.880 --> 00:09:57.380 you have, where you're at, 00:10:00.220 --> 00:10:00.720 will, I think by nature, 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:03.860 move the entire queue of people, 00:10:04.940 --> 00:10:05.380 like they don't really exist. 00:10:06.380 --> 00:10:06.680 I mean, they do, but they don't. 00:10:08.600 --> 00:10:09.100 Behind you, it'll help move them together 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:10.820 forward just a little bit. 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:13.940 And maybe we all move the condition together. 00:10:17.760 --> 00:10:18.240 So It's not a only 1 person kind of thing. 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:22.540 It's a mindset of improving shared 00:10:22.540 --> 00:10:23.040 understanding. 00:10:26.520 --> 00:10:26.640 [Speaker 0]: Exactly, and I'd like to come back on 00:10:28.180 --> 00:10:28.680 something that you mentioned in your answer, 00:10:30.940 --> 00:10:31.440 because it's, you know, 00:10:33.060 --> 00:10:33.460 what the person asking the question 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:35.740 mentioned, 30 years of advance, 00:10:36.620 --> 00:10:36.860 basically, on starting Emacs. 00:10:37.900 --> 00:10:38.400 You know, that's a lot of time, 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:41.020 And you tend to equate this to a massive gap 00:10:42.440 --> 00:10:42.940 in terms of skills between the 2 people. 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:47.840 And whilst it's obvious that would be a gap 00:10:50.280 --> 00:10:50.460 of skills. You know, I find that learning in 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:55.460 terms of pedagogy works best when the person 00:10:58.180 --> 00:10:58.320 doing the teaching is very close in terms of 00:11:00.380 --> 00:11:00.880 skill levels to the person being taught. 00:11:02.620 --> 00:11:03.120 Why is it the case? It's because it's much 00:11:05.660 --> 00:11:05.800 fresher in their memory what are the 00:11:08.100 --> 00:11:08.300 different elements that they have to go 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:09.940 through to acquire a particular skill. 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:12.940 To go a little bit into the theory, 00:11:14.640 --> 00:11:15.060 I'm not sure if you're familiar with Vygotsky 00:11:16.380 --> 00:11:16.860 or at least the I plus 1. 00:11:17.640 --> 00:11:17.860 Are you familiar with this, 00:11:20.540 --> 00:11:21.040 [Speaker 1]: I am not, go on. 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:23.000 [Speaker 0]: Jeremy? So I used to be a teacher before, 00:11:24.520 --> 00:11:24.960 and it's 1 of the things they taught us. 00:11:26.920 --> 00:11:27.340 It's about the fact that when you are trying 00:11:28.900 --> 00:11:29.400 to make someone acquire a skill, 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:32.340 I represents the current knowledge, 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:35.160 and plus 1 is the thing that you should be 00:11:38.920 --> 00:11:39.060 teaching them and the theory behind it is 00:11:41.820 --> 00:11:42.040 that it's much easier to teach someone to 00:11:44.260 --> 00:11:44.500 teach something to someone when they only 00:11:46.100 --> 00:11:46.460 have to focus on plus 1 i.e. 00:11:48.460 --> 00:11:48.900 Something that is very close nearby to them 00:11:50.580 --> 00:11:50.840 If you go with something that is I plus 2, 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:53.740 I plus 3, or god forbid I plus 10, 00:11:55.760 --> 00:11:55.960 it's going to be much harder for them to get 00:11:58.100 --> 00:11:58.360 to the understanding because the distance is 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:01.960 much greater. And that's why I think 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:05.320 mentoring can be taken in 2 ways. 00:12:07.740 --> 00:12:07.860 It could be a mentor who's merely ahead of 00:12:10.380 --> 00:12:10.760 you by plus 1, or it could be a mentor that 00:12:12.040 --> 00:12:12.440 is ahead of you by plus 10, 00:12:14.380 --> 00:12:14.640 but who has the understanding of what plus 1, 00:12:15.800 --> 00:12:16.300 plus 2, and plus 3 is. 00:12:22.680 --> 00:12:23.160 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, and it can be very challenging to 00:12:27.400 --> 00:12:27.540 unwind that. I know if we think about all of 00:12:33.540 --> 00:12:33.740 our hands or input methods have a memory of 00:12:35.920 --> 00:12:36.120 something that I honestly couldn't tell you 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:38.940 what it is. Right? Like, 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:40.740 I know how to do it on a keyboard, 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:43.980 right? We've internalized so much. 00:12:47.900 --> 00:12:48.040 And so, yeah, how to walk backward is a 00:12:51.940 --> 00:12:52.200 distinct challenge and being curious with 00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:56.100 them and close to them and not asking, 00:13:00.300 --> 00:13:00.800 trying to diffuse questions and not ask like 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:03.620 leading, not overly leading. 00:13:09.280 --> 00:13:09.780 An example, early on in my mentoring career, 00:13:11.260 --> 00:13:11.760 I was working in a community project, 00:13:14.280 --> 00:13:14.480 and I really wanted to go in and say to 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:18.500 everybody, why do we suck at sharing code? 00:13:21.020 --> 00:13:21.520 But instead I said, wait a minute, 00:13:24.880 --> 00:13:25.080 what would be the question I could ask the 00:13:27.680 --> 00:13:28.180 group in which I could then ask my question? 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:30.720 So instead I went into the group and I said, 00:13:32.560 --> 00:13:33.060 how are we doing about sharing code? 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:37.620 And collectively, we were able to establish 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:39.700 we didn't feel very good about it. 00:13:42.740 --> 00:13:43.240 And that conversation now 9 years ago, 00:13:47.020 --> 00:13:47.300 helped move a process along for the last, 00:13:50.220 --> 00:13:50.380 like it gave it energy for 9 years of how 00:13:51.560 --> 00:13:52.060 we're sharing and how we're approaching 00:13:58.260 --> 00:13:58.760 stuff. So yeah, the curious questions are 00:14:00.060 --> 00:14:00.560 super helpful. 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:04.940 [Speaker 0]: All right, lovely way to finish this point. 00:14:06.940 --> 00:14:07.200 We have about 10 more minutes so I'm glad 00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:08.800 that we have a little bit of extra time to 00:14:10.640 --> 00:14:10.920 answer the questions because we have a little 00:14:13.740 --> 00:14:13.940 more. All right, I'm gonna switch to the next 00:14:15.160 --> 00:14:15.480 question we can come back to people reacting 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:17.220 to what you just said a little bit later. 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:17.640 [Speaker 2]: Sure. 00:14:20.640 --> 00:14:20.860 [Speaker 0]: All right, have you encountered anyone that 00:14:23.760 --> 00:14:24.000 are being negative about the fact that you're 00:14:26.400 --> 00:14:26.600 using Emacs, assuming that they just don't 00:14:28.740 --> 00:14:28.940 know or have misconceptions about Emacs and 00:14:30.340 --> 00:14:30.700 nothing malicious? If so, 00:14:32.220 --> 00:14:32.720 how do you handle these kinds of people? 00:14:40.640 --> 00:14:40.840 [Speaker 1]: Sure, So at work, I get a gentle elbowing of 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:43.220 like, oh, Jeremy's going to talk about Emacs 00:14:45.900 --> 00:14:46.400 again. So it's not entirely... 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:51.100 Maybe it's a little dismissive, 00:14:56.840 --> 00:14:57.340 but I don't actually care because like it's 00:15:00.160 --> 00:15:00.240 like being, I don't know, 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:02.480 it's like being made fun of for using a 00:15:03.560 --> 00:15:04.060 particular type of pen. 00:15:05.680 --> 00:15:06.180 Like goal is to write something, 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:09.580 right? And I'm using a pen that gives me joy. 00:15:11.740 --> 00:15:12.240 When I talk with my mentees, 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:14.440 like I want to meet them exactly where 00:15:16.980 --> 00:15:17.200 they're at with their code and like what 00:15:20.860 --> 00:15:21.260 they're comfortable with and help them remove 00:15:23.100 --> 00:15:23.600 any of that potential like inadequacy, 00:15:27.800 --> 00:15:27.980 sense of inadequacy or imposter syndrome or 00:15:32.980 --> 00:15:33.480 any of those things because The goal is to, 00:15:36.380 --> 00:15:36.880 for me, to be better at computering. 00:15:39.800 --> 00:15:40.300 Like hop on my computer. 00:15:45.060 --> 00:15:45.220 I want to be able to use it at a speed of 00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:47.800 thought that doesn't introduce a lot of 00:15:50.660 --> 00:15:51.160 friction. Another speaker talked about that 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:54.200 using HyperBowl and a couple of plugins to 00:15:55.260 --> 00:15:55.760 write stream of consciousness. 00:15:57.980 --> 00:15:58.480 And that was an important consideration. 00:16:01.060 --> 00:16:01.380 I want my text editor to flow with me. 00:16:02.160 --> 00:16:02.420 And so I'm like, well, 00:16:03.560 --> 00:16:04.060 Emacs flows with me smooth. 00:16:08.220 --> 00:16:08.720 Like you can deride it all you want. 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:10.360 It doesn't thread very well, 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:12.580 but it's just me on this machine. 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:14.440 I don't need it to overly thread, 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:16.220 at least for my use cases. 00:16:22.340 --> 00:16:22.600 [Speaker 0]: Yeah, I can only agree 100% with what you've 00:16:25.800 --> 00:16:26.300 just said. And it's very easy to dismiss 00:16:28.860 --> 00:16:29.160 stuff like Vim or Emacs based on the very 00:16:31.260 --> 00:16:31.760 trite sentences that everyone use. 00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:32.640 But at the end of the day, 00:16:33.540 --> 00:16:34.040 I really like what you said. 00:16:36.280 --> 00:16:36.780 Those are just pencil that we're using to 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:39.280 express ourselves. And we're doing something 00:16:41.820 --> 00:16:42.080 a little more fancy than just writing words 00:16:43.680 --> 00:16:44.180 on a page. But ultimately, 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:46.880 It's just text at the very bottom. 00:16:48.560 --> 00:16:49.060 So whatever helps us write this test, 00:16:50.540 --> 00:16:51.040 this text more easily, 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:53.460 you know, it's always good. 00:16:56.680 --> 00:16:56.980 Yeah. All right. Moving on to the next 00:16:59.360 --> 00:16:59.820 question. I love the attitudes and worldview 00:17:02.980 --> 00:17:03.160 that infuse your blog post and your talk this 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:05.900 weekend. Learn something every week. 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:08.680 It's cumulative. English class was the most 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:11.520 important. What other advice do you have and 00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:13.859 how is it generalizable to those of us who 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:14.940 are not devs? 00:17:26.280 --> 00:17:26.780 [Speaker 1]: Sure. So I think 1 of the really big changes 00:17:29.140 --> 00:17:29.320 for me, and I talked about this in the 00:17:34.700 --> 00:17:35.200 writing Q&A, is switching my blog from a 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:38.480 topical 1 about role-playing games and board 00:17:43.320 --> 00:17:43.480 games into anything that I think I want to 00:17:47.220 --> 00:17:47.440 write. And that shift happened about the time 00:17:50.380 --> 00:17:50.560 that I was really exploring using Emacs for 00:17:54.060 --> 00:17:54.560 writing. And so previously I had, 00:17:57.860 --> 00:17:58.360 I would write blog posts in Markdown using, 00:18:00.560 --> 00:18:01.060 or I would write it in the web interface. 00:18:06.820 --> 00:18:07.060 And getting to the point where my writing was 00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:08.980 the same as my coding, 00:18:12.040 --> 00:18:12.540 was the same as my RSS consumption, 00:18:15.060 --> 00:18:15.560 was the same of a lot of these things, 00:18:21.260 --> 00:18:21.560 freed up my general interests so that they 00:18:23.860 --> 00:18:24.360 all can kind of play in that space. 00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:27.940 So and that's the, I think, 00:18:33.080 --> 00:18:33.540 Feynman said, like, his notes are his 00:18:35.860 --> 00:18:36.360 thoughts. It's not him thinking, 00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:38.980 I mean, they are him thinking as well. 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:41.180 So it's really framing it that way. 00:18:44.180 --> 00:18:44.680 And then for not devs, 00:18:49.060 --> 00:18:49.240 My daughter has been doing screenwriting and 00:18:53.180 --> 00:18:53.480 she just had her school license for the tool 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:55.220 that they use for writing screenplays. 00:18:57.400 --> 00:18:57.660 She had to pay for it on her own. 00:18:59.540 --> 00:18:59.680 And I was like, hey, let's take a look at 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:01.500 Emacs. There's a package for this. 00:19:03.320 --> 00:19:03.820 Maybe it makes sense to you. 00:19:09.520 --> 00:19:09.720 So I think the, really to summarize it is 00:19:12.280 --> 00:19:12.780 like the broad curiosity in like, 00:19:14.320 --> 00:19:14.820 I have a liberal arts degree, 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:21.420 I have barely any computer science classwork 00:19:23.940 --> 00:19:24.400 practice. I have a lot of practical 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:26.700 experience doing software development, 00:19:28.320 --> 00:19:28.820 but theory is minimal. 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:32.520 Instead, I look to things like Lord of the 00:19:35.340 --> 00:19:35.840 Rings or role-playing games or poetry or 00:19:40.520 --> 00:19:41.020 history or whatever and be curious and Then 00:19:47.260 --> 00:19:47.760 be playful The introduction of git locally 00:19:51.060 --> 00:19:51.340 where I can just have a Git repo means my 00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:57.340 text is recoverable. I don't, 00:19:59.060 --> 00:19:59.320 I can play. I'll just break it, 00:20:00.320 --> 00:20:00.800 I'll change it. It's software, 00:20:02.860 --> 00:20:03.360 let it be soft. It's not hard. 00:20:05.740 --> 00:20:06.100 It can be hard to work with it, 00:20:08.080 --> 00:20:08.520 but let it be soft. Let it be pruned, 00:20:09.780 --> 00:20:10.120 let it go away, let it die, 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:11.700 let it come back. 00:20:16.360 --> 00:20:16.800 [Speaker 0]: Yeah, That's a lovely attitude to have. 00:20:20.980 --> 00:20:21.160 I mean, I've already talked about my past as 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:23.860 an English major in 1 of the EmacsConf talks, 00:20:26.520 --> 00:20:26.780 but just like you, I don't have a comp sci 00:20:30.140 --> 00:20:30.200 education. I just started with needing a 00:20:32.120 --> 00:20:32.620 better pen, and that was about 10 years ago. 00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:37.020 And now I find myself hosting Emacs Cons, 00:20:38.760 --> 00:20:39.140 but it was a very incremental process, 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:40.660 a very cumulative process, 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:43.220 to reuse the word that we used before. 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:48.740 And What I also like about people outside of 00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:50.140 CompSight using Emacs, 00:20:53.300 --> 00:20:53.480 and we've got plenty of such examples in the 00:20:54.940 --> 00:20:55.320 presentations we've had this year, 00:20:57.720 --> 00:20:57.940 but also last year, is that you get so many 00:21:00.540 --> 00:21:00.920 different windows into how people are using 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:03.480 Emacs, and it kind of harks back to what I 00:21:06.340 --> 00:21:06.560 was saying before about Emacs being a 00:21:08.380 --> 00:21:08.880 platform with many horizontal packages 00:21:10.560 --> 00:21:11.060 permitting any kind of workflow imaginable 00:21:13.580 --> 00:21:14.080 and some people are going to gravitate 00:21:16.280 --> 00:21:16.640 towards old mode. I think it was your sister 00:21:18.520 --> 00:21:19.020 that you mentioned that was looking into 00:21:20.760 --> 00:21:21.260 packages for writing screenplays. 00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:23.520 Well, we've got such a thing in Emacs. 00:21:26.260 --> 00:21:26.760 I mean, a screenplay is just a monospace font 00:21:27.900 --> 00:21:28.400 with some fancy formatting. 00:21:29.300 --> 00:21:29.800 It's not very complicated. 00:21:32.460 --> 00:21:32.960 And if you can get behind, 00:21:36.280 --> 00:21:36.720 you know, someone using such a stable format 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:38.940 for writing screenplay with many rules, 00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:40.840 but ultimately all the screenplay look the 00:21:42.520 --> 00:21:42.780 same, well, Emacs is kind of just the same. 00:21:45.060 --> 00:21:45.480 It's about standardizing the way you edit 00:21:47.760 --> 00:21:48.000 text. So I think your sister was already half 00:21:51.420 --> 00:21:51.760 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, it was my it was my my daughter. 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:52.840 I'm trying to sell her on. 00:21:53.320 --> 00:21:53.800 [Speaker 0]: on the idea. Oh, no, sorry. 00:21:56.200 --> 00:21:56.640 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, she also picked up programming just 1 00:21:58.140 --> 00:21:58.640 day and was like, I forget that. 00:22:01.360 --> 00:22:01.860 Like she was playing with a stage manager 00:22:03.420 --> 00:22:03.580 programming thing or like have a little 00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:05.140 avatars moving around. 00:22:11.280 --> 00:22:11.480 And so she's got a predisposition to like the 00:22:15.620 --> 00:22:16.020 craft of things. And I think that's another 00:22:18.320 --> 00:22:18.820 aspect is like, I'm not, 00:22:21.080 --> 00:22:21.580 I mean, I appreciate science. 00:22:23.040 --> 00:22:23.540 I'm here for a scientific approach, 00:22:27.940 --> 00:22:28.440 but I also Really enjoy the craft of things 00:22:32.500 --> 00:22:33.000 Playing with it Like this is my playground. 00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:36.180 I love kind of hacking on it and looking at 00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:39.360 packages and Seeing how I might use it pick 00:22:42.120 --> 00:22:42.340 it up for a little bit and then maybe I 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:43.380 forget about it 00:22:47.940 --> 00:22:48.440 [Speaker 0]: Right, well Jeremy I think that was Lovely 00:22:49.860 --> 00:22:50.180 finish. Oh, sorry plasma. 00:22:51.380 --> 00:22:51.760 Oh, sorry. I thought he was someone on Mumble 00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:54.780 talking to me. I'm actually going to have to 00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:56.600 be sorry because we only have about 50 00:22:58.000 --> 00:22:58.320 seconds until we move on to the next talk. 00:22:59.600 --> 00:23:00.040 But please, Plasma Strike, 00:23:01.120 --> 00:23:01.560 If you want to ask your question to Jeremy, 00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:03.220 by all means, stay in the room. 00:23:04.120 --> 00:23:04.620 [Speaker 1]: Yep, I'll be here. 00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:07.900 [Speaker 0]: And we'll be recording all of this and we'll 00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:09.940 put this later on the talk page. 00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:12.560 So Jeremy, I'll have to say bye now because I 00:23:13.660 --> 00:23:14.160 need to prepare the next room. 00:23:16.320 --> 00:23:16.440 But It was lovely talking with you and thank 00:23:17.040 --> 00:23:17.540 you for all your answers. 00:23:19.040 --> 00:23:19.540 [Speaker 1]: Absolutely. Thank you. 00:23:21.220 --> 00:23:21.720 [Speaker 0]: Bye-bye. Bye. NOTE Start of section to review 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:26.580 [Speaker 2]: See you. Hello. One of the things with Emacs is 00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:28.900 it's not... It's like when you change the 00:23:30.860 --> 00:23:31.260 file management, you just change very, 00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:33.980 very small amounts of what exactly you need, 00:23:38.040 --> 00:23:38.360 you want to change. Like you go from text 00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:43.860 editing to your file manager, 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:45.220 you're not changing your theme, 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:47.180 you're not changing your font. 00:23:49.940 --> 00:23:50.060 [Speaker 3]: And you 00:23:52.360 --> 00:23:52.500 [Speaker 2]: use your bookmarks, you use your bookmarks in 00:23:54.340 --> 00:23:54.840 your emails, you use your bookmarks in your 00:23:59.380 --> 00:23:59.880 org-mod documents, you use it in E-dub, 00:24:02.460 --> 00:24:02.960 W-W buffers if you use that, 00:24:06.760 --> 00:24:06.940 but it's just the, Yeah, 00:24:10.080 --> 00:24:10.580 it's just the least amount of Incremental 00:24:10.940 --> 00:24:11.440 changes 00:24:14.620 --> 00:24:14.900 [Speaker 1]: yeah, you're when you were talking about like 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:18.980 the Reducing friction like turn off editing 00:24:22.280 --> 00:24:22.480 or not editing, but auto correct while you're 00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:25.940 typing, it's absolutely spot on. 00:24:29.800 --> 00:24:30.300 You're wanting to get whatever is flowing 00:24:31.280 --> 00:24:31.720 needs to keep flowing, 00:24:33.700 --> 00:24:34.200 like as a programmer or as a creative, 00:24:38.100 --> 00:24:38.600 anytime I can hit flow is my goal. 00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:42.740 And so paying attention to what removes flow 00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:48.980 or hinders it or saps energy and that unified 00:24:52.800 --> 00:24:53.080 environment of Emacs is really helpful to 00:24:57.260 --> 00:24:57.760 maintain that. So yeah. 00:25:02.300 --> 00:25:02.580 [Speaker 2]: I think it's about speed and then once after 00:25:04.040 --> 00:25:04.540 you get some of that, then you're like, 00:25:06.420 --> 00:25:06.920 well, yeah, it's important, 00:25:09.320 --> 00:25:09.820 but this is like the last thing I care about. 00:25:14.280 --> 00:25:14.780 [Speaker 1]: Right. Speed is all like, 00:25:19.700 --> 00:25:20.200 Yeah, there's a quote that I love called, 00:25:22.940 --> 00:25:23.440 I forget the author. It's, 00:25:30.060 --> 00:25:30.260 there is a connection between slowness and 00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:34.460 remembering and fastness and forgetting. 00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:40.180 And the slowness is an interesting, 00:25:43.520 --> 00:25:43.840 like it's, I am moving fast in Emacs because 00:25:46.020 --> 00:25:46.520 I've forgotten how I'm doing it. 00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:48.420 I just do it now, right? 00:25:52.120 --> 00:25:52.360 And then the slowness of like being in my 00:25:57.540 --> 00:25:57.720 thought and staying on that stream is where I 00:26:01.700 --> 00:26:02.200 want to be and ride whatever that pathway is. 00:26:07.540 --> 00:26:07.680 And a text editor is still hard to do that 00:26:10.260 --> 00:26:10.520 because if I were using a pen and paper it's 00:26:11.600 --> 00:26:12.100 more cumbersome to auto-edit. 00:26:18.620 --> 00:26:18.800 But I can't get it out without losing my 00:26:21.180 --> 00:26:21.440 thinking. And so I ended up having to type 00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:21.940 it. 00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:25.640 [Speaker 3]: Something I've been experimenting with is 00:26:26.600 --> 00:26:27.100 using, well, recording. 00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:29.700 Some other people are using dictation for 00:26:31.760 --> 00:26:32.260 this to just get the blur out of the ideas 00:26:35.280 --> 00:26:35.500 and you can go back and glean some of that 00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:36.700 stuff out of it. 00:26:41.320 --> 00:26:41.680 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, what I will do when I'm capturing like 00:26:44.760 --> 00:26:45.260 quotes or epigraphs is I will almost always 00:26:47.760 --> 00:26:47.960 turn on dictation because I got a book in 1 00:26:52.020 --> 00:26:52.520 hand. So I'm like, on goes the typing. 00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:56.940 And yeah, that is, there's a, 00:26:59.900 --> 00:27:00.180 I'm really thankful that that exists as well. 00:27:01.260 --> 00:27:01.760 Like my mother is blind. 00:27:05.020 --> 00:27:05.520 And so having that helps her and me 00:27:08.560 --> 00:27:09.060 communicate Through text because we're both 00:27:12.900 --> 00:27:13.400 able to appreciate it And use it in a way 00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:15.980 that is accessible for both of us 00:27:19.120 --> 00:27:19.620 [Speaker 3]: Go ahead 00:27:23.100 --> 00:27:23.600 [Speaker 2]: There's the L feet to package which will 00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:25.200 which will allow you to both of us. 00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:25.440 There's the ElfieTube package which will 00:27:28.320 --> 00:27:28.820 allow you to subscribe to a YouTube channel 00:27:32.500 --> 00:27:33.000 and then download the subtitles and give you 00:27:36.760 --> 00:27:36.940 remote control access to the MPV player to 00:27:37.700 --> 00:27:38.200 watch the YouTube thing. 00:27:41.420 --> 00:27:41.920 And considering you have a really big 00:27:44.580 --> 00:27:44.680 subtitle thing that you can click at the 00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:45.660 various different places, 00:27:47.860 --> 00:27:48.280 it's really surprising about how different 00:27:49.300 --> 00:27:49.800 that makes YouTube feel. 00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:51.180 [Speaker 1]: Yeah I've... 00:27:54.140 --> 00:27:54.340 [Speaker 2]: And then on top of that about how much like 00:27:57.660 --> 00:27:57.800 if you've used it why would you never have 00:27:59.160 --> 00:27:59.660 thought about that before because it's... 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:01.220 Right. It's even better. 00:28:04.840 --> 00:28:05.340 [Speaker 1]: Right absolutely. Sasha? 00:28:10.080 --> 00:28:10.440 [Speaker 3]: Oh I would say I do use the caption slot also 00:28:11.580 --> 00:28:12.040 when I'm skimming through stuff for Emacs 00:28:13.740 --> 00:28:14.240 News. But for books specifically, 00:28:18.420 --> 00:28:18.600 I often use Google Lens to just capture the 00:28:21.900 --> 00:28:22.200 text and copy it so that I don't have to deal 00:28:24.140 --> 00:28:24.640 with recognition errors or whatever. 00:28:25.760 --> 00:28:26.260 really useful. 00:28:31.780 --> 00:28:32.280 [Speaker 1]: It's just So 1 of my hobbies is role-playing 00:28:35.980 --> 00:28:36.100 games and the tabular data that is in the 00:28:38.940 --> 00:28:39.440 role-playing books is never in correct, 00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:43.380 like copy it out. And so I was like this is 00:28:46.260 --> 00:28:46.680 really annoying And I ended up taking 00:28:47.720 --> 00:28:48.220 screenshots on my machine, 00:28:50.280 --> 00:28:50.780 running Tesseract to pipe it in, 00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:53.980 and then using Emacs to like edit it because 00:28:57.940 --> 00:28:58.100 Tesseract adheres to the column format that 00:29:00.520 --> 00:29:00.680 I'm looking for. And I'm really thankful that 00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:06.100 we're at a place where the OCR is in good 00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:10.120 shape. That's part of my day job is working 00:29:14.180 --> 00:29:14.680 on some old documents that OCR is good, 00:29:18.100 --> 00:29:18.600 but not great because of like their 19th 00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:23.920 century documents, but having that ability to 00:29:28.080 --> 00:29:28.220 me is really powerful because we're gonna be 00:29:32.580 --> 00:29:32.900 able to share that text And also then once 00:29:35.860 --> 00:29:36.360 it's understood in what it's ASCII or UTF-8 00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:39.500 encoding is, it can be translated as well. 00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:42.460 So we can make it even more generally 00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:46.720 available, which I think is a nice thing to 00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:47.220 have. 00:29:51.820 --> 00:29:52.320 [Speaker 3]: I wanted to go back to the topic of mentoring 00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:54.240 since that's something that I'm very much 00:29:55.940 --> 00:29:56.400 interested in figuring out how to facilitate 00:29:56.980 --> 00:29:57.480 in the Emacs community. 00:30:00.520 --> 00:30:00.720 Other people have been working on kind of 00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:03.900 remote mentoring initiatives with Emacs 00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:07.860 Buddy. And there are meetups as well that 00:30:09.140 --> 00:30:09.340 kind of get that sense of like, 00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:10.840 you know, what people are doing things and 00:30:12.040 --> 00:30:12.500 then somebody can look over their shoulder 00:30:14.060 --> 00:30:14.260 and say, hey, have you ever thought about 00:30:15.060 --> 00:30:15.560 [Speaker 1]: Right. 00:30:17.780 --> 00:30:18.040 [Speaker 3]: this? Is there any things that you can can 00:30:20.320 --> 00:30:20.820 suggest specifically in the context of this 00:30:23.180 --> 00:30:23.680 kind of mentoring over a distance? 00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:26.180 Any chance you've thought about it? 00:30:30.800 --> 00:30:30.920 [Speaker 1]: I'm on the Emacs buddy repo and I've had a 00:30:32.600 --> 00:30:33.100 handful of people reach out to me. 00:30:37.700 --> 00:30:37.920 Most often we start with email and every so 00:30:38.980 --> 00:30:39.320 often it'll be like, hey, 00:30:44.340 --> 00:30:44.840 let's hop on some kind of video or audio, 00:30:47.320 --> 00:30:47.820 even just done phone calls. 00:30:53.140 --> 00:30:53.480 Yeah, I haven't done any of the like shared 00:30:57.220 --> 00:30:57.500 buffer stuff. I know like at work we have 00:30:59.700 --> 00:31:00.200 replit where we can use that. 00:31:02.500 --> 00:31:03.000 Seeing the presentation on CDRT, 00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:04.940 I was like, oh, that's really great. 00:31:10.760 --> 00:31:11.140 But what I found is being able to see 00:31:15.280 --> 00:31:15.720 someone, I don't get to see them typing, 00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:17.840 but I get to see the results of what they're 00:31:18.840 --> 00:31:19.340 doing on the computer. 00:31:22.840 --> 00:31:23.040 You know paying attention to that is the big 00:31:26.040 --> 00:31:26.540 1 to help them think of a different way. 00:31:28.940 --> 00:31:29.160 Depending on where they're at when they're 00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:33.460 writing if they are like at a pause point, 00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:35.460 if I'm at my best, I'll be like, 00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:38.360 so what are you thinking? 00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:41.140 Where are you stuck? Cause maybe they're 00:31:43.040 --> 00:31:43.280 trying to navigate somewhere and that starts 00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:46.720 to create a point for a conversation of like, 00:31:48.280 --> 00:31:48.780 how do I go from here to there? 00:31:57.340 --> 00:31:57.520 And so it's looking for those moments is 00:31:58.840 --> 00:31:59.340 where I try to operate. 00:32:03.740 --> 00:32:04.240 [Speaker 3]: And sometimes, you know, 00:32:05.380 --> 00:32:05.600 so there's kind of like, 00:32:06.760 --> 00:32:07.120 how do you go from here to there? 00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:08.500 And sometimes even the, 00:32:12.380 --> 00:32:12.540 what there should I be going for is a 00:32:15.060 --> 00:32:15.160 challenge, right? Because especially with 00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:16.980 Emacs newbies, they might not necessarily 00:32:19.340 --> 00:32:19.540 know what's possible or what's nearby in 00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:21.700 terms of what their current knowledge is. 00:32:23.760 --> 00:32:24.120 And that's an interesting thing to map out. 00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:26.400 Is that something that you've thought about 00:32:29.020 --> 00:32:29.280 and as you're conversing with all these 00:32:29.280 --> 00:32:29.780 people? 00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:37.840 [Speaker 1]: The main thing, the main function that I do 00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:38.940 talk, I talked about this, 00:32:41.240 --> 00:32:41.740 I think in the, I did in the talk where it's, 00:32:46.320 --> 00:32:46.660 I need to jump between the test and the 00:32:50.900 --> 00:32:51.400 implementation. And since 2005, 00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:56.480 I've had that. And I watch folks not have 00:32:57.880 --> 00:32:58.100 that. I'm just like, Oh, 00:33:00.380 --> 00:33:00.540 my goodness, like there's a convention in the 00:33:02.500 --> 00:33:02.720 language we work in. Let's get that 00:33:04.080 --> 00:33:04.580 installed. Let's get it going. 00:33:07.600 --> 00:33:07.840 Like that's 1 thing, that's 1 access I know 00:33:11.740 --> 00:33:11.880 they're gonna go to. Another 1 is the jump to 00:33:14.280 --> 00:33:14.600 definition. And I've never gotten like C 00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:16.960 tags. I haven't really spent time on that, 00:33:18.600 --> 00:33:19.100 but with the advent of LSP, 00:33:21.040 --> 00:33:21.540 it works a lot better. 00:33:24.520 --> 00:33:25.020 And so I try to get people to use that. 00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:30.640 And what I've noticed weirdly is like VS 00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:34.400 code, it doesn't work as well as I would have 00:33:36.340 --> 00:33:36.500 thought. And there's lots of like errors and 00:33:38.100 --> 00:33:38.560 warnings popping up in the bottom corner. 00:33:41.120 --> 00:33:41.280 So I'm like, well, you gotta pay attention to 00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:46.140 that. But I try not to get into anybody's 00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:48.120 business about like, I'm like, 00:33:48.900 --> 00:33:49.120 maybe we could fix that. 00:33:50.020 --> 00:33:50.280 Maybe we can clean it up, 00:33:51.740 --> 00:33:52.240 but it's your, you know, 00:33:54.440 --> 00:33:54.940 it's your car you're driving. 00:33:56.320 --> 00:33:56.760 I'm just long for a ride. 00:33:57.620 --> 00:33:58.120 It's safe, we're fine. 00:34:01.360 --> 00:34:01.860 So yeah, that jumped to definition. 00:34:07.940 --> 00:34:08.440 And then the, I mean, search in project, 00:34:10.080 --> 00:34:10.580 like everybody understanding that. 00:34:15.219 --> 00:34:15.380 But I feel that the, like I mentioned in the 00:34:17.980 --> 00:34:18.480 talk, the advent of orderless is just huge. 00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:21.659 I did not realize how much I loved it because 00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:24.480 I don't have to think about things and can 00:34:28.080 --> 00:34:28.580 have slightly more forgiving default 00:34:34.340 --> 00:34:34.840 searches. Yeah, it's hard. 00:34:39.159 --> 00:34:39.440 The principles of organizing 10 things versus 00:34:41.040 --> 00:34:41.540 100 versus 1,000 versus 10,000 00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:44.940 are just, they're not the same. 00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:52.540 [Speaker 2]: A common hang up for, that would easily make 00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:54.820 you skip off of Emacs, 00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:01.040 Org Mode, Hyperbole is if you go into any of 00:35:03.680 --> 00:35:04.040 those with the mindset of I'm going to master 00:35:05.080 --> 00:35:05.580 it all before I use it. 00:35:06.640 --> 00:35:07.140 That's not going to work. 00:35:13.660 --> 00:35:13.860 [Speaker 1]: Absolutely. I was terrified of org mode when 00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:15.060 I started because I'm like, 00:35:16.720 --> 00:35:17.040 I don't need to organize my life. 00:35:20.460 --> 00:35:20.960 I need to like type. And then that, 00:35:24.520 --> 00:35:25.020 yes, incremental. What did I find helpful? 00:35:28.580 --> 00:35:29.080 [Speaker 2]: It's for the, for the Linux CLI toolbox, 00:35:30.860 --> 00:35:31.360 but you have to look at them as more of just, 00:35:34.640 --> 00:35:35.140 I have a whole bunch of tools available to me 00:35:39.140 --> 00:35:39.360 and I'll just pick them up as I have a 00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:42.680 problem and as I, and as the tool can be 00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:44.940 useful for this problem and incrementally. 00:35:47.700 --> 00:35:48.200 [Speaker 1]: Yeah. It's 00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:55.080 [Speaker 3]: actually, so, in fact, 00:35:56.180 --> 00:35:56.400 when when I'm mentoring people, 00:35:58.440 --> 00:35:58.580 I have to take a step back and say, 00:36:00.520 --> 00:36:00.760 OK, what are we with the note taking thing 00:36:01.640 --> 00:36:02.140 that you mentioned in your talk. 00:36:03.120 --> 00:36:03.480 How do you like to take notes? 00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:05.140 How do you like to keep track of the things 00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:06.600 that you want to work on when you have an 00:36:07.540 --> 00:36:08.040 idea? Where does it go? 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:10.820 Because if you improve that practice, 00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:13.180 and especially if you can sneak some literate 00:36:14.540 --> 00:36:15.040 programming in without them really noticing, 00:36:17.860 --> 00:36:18.160 then it becomes the thing that they can use 00:36:18.900 --> 00:36:19.400 to learn more efficiently. 00:36:23.200 --> 00:36:23.700 [Speaker 1]: Yeah. I was presenting at, 00:36:26.600 --> 00:36:27.100 I wasn't presenting at this seminar, 00:36:30.560 --> 00:36:30.920 but I attended it and it was a crash course 00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:32.300 in command line tools. 00:36:35.520 --> 00:36:36.020 And I didn't, I mean, I went there to listen 00:36:38.660 --> 00:36:38.800 and there was a point where the people were 00:36:40.560 --> 00:36:41.060 like, I use this command line tool. 00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:42.860 I'm not a programmer, I'm a librarian, 00:36:45.040 --> 00:36:45.060 I'm an archivist. I use it, 00:36:47.080 --> 00:36:47.580 I'm like, great, I'm gonna remember this. 00:36:49.640 --> 00:36:49.820 And then I forget about it and I might use it 00:36:54.340 --> 00:36:54.520 6 months from now. And so I tried to 00:36:56.880 --> 00:36:57.380 encourage everybody, like come up with, 00:37:00.580 --> 00:37:00.740 like you have a degree in knowledge and 00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:02.820 information, management and organization, 00:37:06.160 --> 00:37:06.660 introspect, right? Spend some time on it. 00:37:09.740 --> 00:37:10.240 Think about what is a way that I can do this 00:37:13.180 --> 00:37:13.360 and ask questions to get to the point where 00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:19.240 you can create a discoverable inventory of 00:37:22.500 --> 00:37:23.000 the tools you've used and what that means. 00:37:26.160 --> 00:37:26.660 And my answer was, I use literate programming 00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:31.300 or I shove it in my bin directory in GitHub 00:37:34.080 --> 00:37:34.300 and like, I don't know if I'll remember it, 00:37:35.860 --> 00:37:36.020 but I can go there every now and then and be 00:37:37.120 --> 00:37:37.620 like, oh yeah, that command. 00:37:44.220 --> 00:37:44.720 So note taking is the most critical component 00:37:46.620 --> 00:37:47.120 of any number of work. 00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:52.360 [Speaker 3]: Sometimes I wonder if we can maybe 00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:54.500 externalize some of all this mentoring 00:37:57.520 --> 00:37:57.720 insight and kind of like this choose your own 00:37:59.700 --> 00:37:59.920 adventure thing, where the person says, 00:38:01.200 --> 00:38:01.700 OK, this is what I got at the moment. 00:38:03.460 --> 00:38:03.960 And then through a series of diagnostic 00:38:05.740 --> 00:38:06.220 questions, we can figure out what hurts, 00:38:08.040 --> 00:38:08.220 right? Where is the thing that they would 00:38:08.980 --> 00:38:09.240 like to learn more about? 00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:10.460 And then, okay, if that hurts, 00:38:12.620 --> 00:38:13.120 try this and keep that manageable. 00:38:15.720 --> 00:38:15.880 And if there's only a way to also be able to 00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:17.720 capture each person's state, 00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:19.840 the things that they know about and have 00:38:20.980 --> 00:38:21.480 absorbed into their habits. 00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:23.200 So you can say, right, 00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:25.760 you know, my recommendation for someone who's 00:38:28.580 --> 00:38:28.940 brand new to org is not the same as somebody 00:38:30.060 --> 00:38:30.480 who's like, okay, they've got their agendas 00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:31.800 and everything set up already. 00:38:33.680 --> 00:38:34.180 Just how do we represent that as like WISPs? 00:38:39.520 --> 00:38:39.720 [Speaker 1]: I've given up on trying to map that. 00:38:43.180 --> 00:38:43.440 I like the one-on-one conversations and 00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:47.980 discovery. And I think that's the part where 00:38:51.980 --> 00:38:52.120 you're looking at, you're asking about how do 00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:56.320 we make the process and like I heard, 00:38:58.860 --> 00:38:59.040 like how do we help equip those who want to 00:39:01.560 --> 00:39:01.960 mentor as well, right? 00:39:05.900 --> 00:39:05.970 Making that, reducing the barrier in a way. 00:39:06.040 --> 00:39:06.180 [Speaker 2]: I don't 00:39:08.240 --> 00:39:08.740 [Speaker 3]: know, I think what you said about enjoying 00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:10.680 the conversation and the fact that it is 00:39:12.080 --> 00:39:12.580 really unique for each person, 00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:15.260 each situation that comes up. 00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:18.840 I suspect what it just comes down to is more 00:39:21.560 --> 00:39:22.020 like capturing the good stuff of each 00:39:23.160 --> 00:39:23.660 mentoring session or whatever. 00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:26.120 Maybe it's getting the mentees to write very 00:39:27.700 --> 00:39:27.900 short blog posts about what they learned this 00:39:28.780 --> 00:39:29.280 week or whatever else. 00:39:30.900 --> 00:39:31.400 And then, oh, yeah, you know, 00:39:33.700 --> 00:39:33.900 we ran into the same problem 3 months ago. 00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:36.440 Let me go look it up. And then that becomes a 00:39:37.080 --> 00:39:37.580 reusable segment. 00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:41.780 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, when I worked at a coding bootcamp, 00:39:46.420 --> 00:39:46.720 they tried to encourage the mentors to say, 00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:49.820 like write a blog posts for the mentees. 00:39:57.160 --> 00:39:57.380 And that was, some of them did, 00:40:01.980 --> 00:40:02.140 but it was intimidating because like they 00:40:03.260 --> 00:40:03.760 didn't wanna, I don't know. 00:40:06.900 --> 00:40:07.360 Are we enculturated in an education system 00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:09.920 where we can't get it wrong or we need to 00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:11.980 look like we're more of an expert than we 00:40:15.720 --> 00:40:16.220 are? I don't know. I have a lot of like, 00:40:17.720 --> 00:40:17.960 I'm a middle aged white guy, 00:40:20.140 --> 00:40:20.640 I've got a lot of background and privilege in 00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:25.680 my career. So like, it's not as scary to put 00:40:28.620 --> 00:40:28.860 something forward for myself as it might be 00:40:31.080 --> 00:40:31.240 as like a woman in tech or a minority in 00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:35.900 tech, because that's a different place. 00:40:38.900 --> 00:40:39.400 And I want to really get done with that. 00:40:40.760 --> 00:40:41.260 I don't like that at all. 00:40:43.820 --> 00:40:44.320 And I would love our, like, 00:40:46.640 --> 00:40:47.140 just write. And it doesn't have to be public, 00:40:48.540 --> 00:40:49.040 right? You don't have to make it public, 00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:52.380 but if you make it discoverable to yourself, 00:40:58.320 --> 00:40:58.820 that's the big thing. And 1 of my coworkers, 00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:05.020 She doesn't blog, but she definitely has a 00:41:07.200 --> 00:41:07.480 large knowledge base of stuff that she 00:41:08.980 --> 00:41:09.140 references because she's pulling out all 00:41:10.520 --> 00:41:10.760 kinds of stuff and I'm like whatever you're 00:41:11.120 --> 00:41:11.620 doing is working. 00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:18.420 [Speaker 2]: I'm trying to have something. 00:41:23.680 --> 00:41:24.180 There's a good opportunity with the Emacs 00:41:25.680 --> 00:41:26.180 conference to accomplish this. 00:41:28.420 --> 00:41:28.920 So like if you make like a, 00:41:31.640 --> 00:41:32.140 because 1 of the things with it is, 00:41:36.600 --> 00:41:37.080 Sasha, you do a really good job of using all. 00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:39.000 You're the 1 who has the Emacs buffer with 00:41:39.780 --> 00:41:40.080 the time on it, right? 00:41:41.820 --> 00:41:41.980 Is that your screen that's being recorded for 00:41:45.860 --> 00:41:46.360 that? Because you have a really good example 00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:50.600 of a really consolidated emacs workflow that 00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:53.920 works really good with the Emacs conference 00:41:56.520 --> 00:41:56.800 so if you had like a page that described how 00:42:00.100 --> 00:42:00.460 you did all that stuff in the emacs 00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:04.360 conference like on that and then we then you 00:42:06.140 --> 00:42:06.380 did even more stuff with that. 00:42:09.560 --> 00:42:10.060 Like you do the org mode file that you can 00:42:12.140 --> 00:42:12.340 just put straight into your agenda for your 00:42:14.720 --> 00:42:14.940 time zone. I used that. 00:42:17.540 --> 00:42:17.800 That was really nice, just because it allowed 00:42:19.600 --> 00:42:19.900 me to reorganize and see how all the talks 00:42:21.580 --> 00:42:21.880 would work together, and which ones I wanted 00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:26.060 to do. You could add Org Mode to do tags with 00:42:31.020 --> 00:42:31.520 that, to say, plan to watch, 00:42:36.080 --> 00:42:36.360 I want to re-watch but I have to skip it 00:42:37.540 --> 00:42:38.000 because there's another talk I'm watching, 00:42:40.760 --> 00:42:41.260 you know, like a couple tags don't care about 00:42:43.940 --> 00:42:44.200 so that people can easily tag all the talks 00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:47.860 that they care about on top of that. 00:42:52.660 --> 00:42:53.160 And then with, I'm going to try to email 00:42:54.660 --> 00:42:54.900 these ideas on it too, 00:42:57.980 --> 00:42:58.480 but then you can also, 00:43:00.940 --> 00:43:01.440 you have the either pad questions, 00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:04.440 you could put all those in org-mode documents 00:43:08.300 --> 00:43:08.760 with crdt.el, post all those in the Emacs 00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:11.600 conference and then people could use that to 00:43:13.820 --> 00:43:13.980 edit all the documents at the same time so 00:43:15.160 --> 00:43:15.660 then everybody's actually collaboratively 00:43:20.180 --> 00:43:20.440 editing. And then people have all the 00:43:24.520 --> 00:43:25.020 scaffolding for if you do the Emacs meetings, 00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:27.940 buddy meetings, because they know exactly how 00:43:29.820 --> 00:43:30.180 to set it all up with that. 00:43:34.040 --> 00:43:34.540 And then you combine it with any number of 00:43:38.040 --> 00:43:38.360 whatever chat video program so that people 00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:40.280 can talk and watch each other. 00:43:45.420 --> 00:43:45.920 [Speaker 3]: I have a presentation later on EmacsConf 00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:49.200 infrastructure and I will capture the note 00:43:51.380 --> 00:43:51.600 And maybe I can include a mini tutorial in 00:43:53.460 --> 00:43:53.800 the schedule org so that people can be like, 00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:55.680 hey, by the way, you could refile these 00:43:58.860 --> 00:43:59.120 things into your own org files or tag them 00:44:01.520 --> 00:44:01.720 and here's a list thingy that filters your 00:44:03.420 --> 00:44:03.740 agenda by your tag or whatever, 00:44:04.940 --> 00:44:05.200 it'll be fine. But it's, 00:44:06.100 --> 00:44:06.600 you know, it's, it's kind of like, 00:44:09.640 --> 00:44:09.800 it is, you're right. It is an opportunity to 00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:12.800 expose people to more things that they could 00:44:14.620 --> 00:44:15.120 do in kind of a scaffolded way. 00:44:16.600 --> 00:44:16.880 That's interesting stuff, 00:44:18.780 --> 00:44:19.040 but I, your point actually driving also going 00:44:21.180 --> 00:44:21.680 back to previous parts of conversation about, 00:44:24.340 --> 00:44:24.546 it's difficult for people to share. 00:44:26.420 --> 00:44:26.720 When you realize, like I keep telling 00:44:28.380 --> 00:44:28.880 everyone, hey, if you blog about Emacs, 00:44:30.720 --> 00:44:30.920 you'll not only learn things for yourself and 00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:31.920 make things more searchable, 00:44:33.520 --> 00:44:33.740 other people will come by and tell you even 00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:35.340 better ways of doing things, 00:44:36.940 --> 00:44:37.080 which is something that always happens to me 00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:37.960 too, and I'm posting this. 00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:38.900 Has that ever happened? 00:44:39.960 --> 00:44:40.460 I'm sure that happens to you. 00:44:45.020 --> 00:44:45.520 [Speaker 1]: It's great. I love getting those things like, 00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:49.700 yeah, Howard's presentation on the game 00:44:51.720 --> 00:44:52.000 stuff. I'm like, I'm going to go explore that 00:44:54.560 --> 00:44:55.060 now. Because it's my little house. 00:44:57.280 --> 00:44:57.780 [Speaker 3]: You just have to make it less intimidating, 00:45:00.600 --> 00:45:01.100 right? And kind of change people's perception 00:45:03.420 --> 00:45:03.540 that, oh, blogging or sharing tutorials or 00:45:05.460 --> 00:45:05.860 whatever, that's then when you're an expert, 00:45:06.340 --> 00:45:06.840 when you're an experienced, 00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:09.720 to rather working out loud, 00:45:11.520 --> 00:45:11.740 thinking out loud, this is just that I'm 00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:13.300 learning along the way. 00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:16.000 And it might not be the most efficient way to 00:45:17.720 --> 00:45:17.880 do things, but this is what I'm doing right 00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:18.380 now. 00:45:23.940 --> 00:45:24.180 [Speaker 1]: Yeah. And I had a handful of times where I 00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:26.000 posted something and someone was like, 00:45:27.620 --> 00:45:27.900 Oh yeah, this is, this would have you tried 00:45:30.060 --> 00:45:30.420 this? Or I'm like, I didn't even know that 00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:32.940 existed. That makes this easier. 00:45:37.540 --> 00:45:37.740 [Speaker 3]: I've written this like little hack and I'm 00:45:38.860 --> 00:45:39.140 very proud of it because it's clever. 00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:39.920 And then someone's like, 00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:41.240 Oh yeah, there's a package for that. 00:45:42.720 --> 00:45:43.220 It's called this. Right? 00:45:43.660 --> 00:45:44.160 [Speaker 1]: Thank you. Right? Yeah. 00:45:49.380 --> 00:45:49.880 It's just it's Yeah, it the fantastic part 00:45:54.140 --> 00:45:54.240 it. I played Legos as a kid and me and my 00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:56.260 friends would play Legos at the house. 00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:01.300 And Emacs has this like feeling of playing 00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:04.540 Legos with a group of people across the 00:46:06.120 --> 00:46:06.620 world. In fact, 1 of my current, 00:46:09.080 --> 00:46:09.580 well, 1 of my best friends now, 00:46:14.040 --> 00:46:14.540 we met a year ago. And it turns out we both 00:46:18.460 --> 00:46:18.620 love Emacs. We talk every Thursday and we 00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:20.420 hang out and we talk poetry. 00:46:23.500 --> 00:46:24.000 We talk Tom Petty. We talk Emacs. 00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:25.420 We talk software development. 00:46:26.840 --> 00:46:27.340 He does Python. I do Ruby. 00:46:29.860 --> 00:46:30.360 Just anything and everything. 00:46:36.660 --> 00:46:36.820 And it's also we both are curious because we 00:46:38.100 --> 00:46:38.600 don't use it the same way. 00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:44.420 And we like how we accomplish a task. 00:46:47.020 --> 00:46:47.220 I think that's the fascinating part to me is 00:46:50.140 --> 00:46:50.580 we each get to explore our way to interact 00:46:54.060 --> 00:46:54.560 with the computer uniquely by whatever 00:46:55.860 --> 00:46:56.360 pathways are in our brain. 00:46:58.340 --> 00:46:58.520 We see stuff, we pick it up, 00:47:00.060 --> 00:47:00.240 and we're like, that doesn't quite work for 00:47:01.960 --> 00:47:02.460 me, or, oh, that worked really well. 00:47:06.660 --> 00:47:07.160 Fascinating, like, I don't know, 00:47:08.200 --> 00:47:08.700 shared art installation. 00:47:13.740 --> 00:47:14.020 [Speaker 3]: I think you're onto something that I also 00:47:15.460 --> 00:47:15.640 resonate with. 1 of the things that 00:47:18.820 --> 00:47:19.060 fascinates me about Emacs is all these 00:47:21.220 --> 00:47:21.720 people's configuration jobs are crystallized 00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:25.080 workflows. And it's really when you talk to 00:47:26.580 --> 00:47:27.080 them and you see how they're using it, 00:47:29.200 --> 00:47:29.540 and you understand a little bit of their 00:47:32.140 --> 00:47:32.320 story and things that they need, 00:47:33.160 --> 00:47:33.660 the ideas they've had, 00:47:35.640 --> 00:47:36.140 that's really fascinating. 00:47:37.580 --> 00:47:37.800 And I think that's 1 of the things that makes 00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:40.080 it possible to be perpetually curious about 00:47:42.660 --> 00:47:43.160 Emacs, because it's not just the, 00:47:43.820 --> 00:47:44.060 you know, this is the, 00:47:45.520 --> 00:47:45.920 these are all the Lego pieces there are, 00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:47.920 but you have this community of people who are 00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:50.820 using these Lego bricks in such fascinating 00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:53.940 ways and always inventing new things for it. 00:47:56.100 --> 00:47:56.600 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, new colors, new shapes, 00:47:59.640 --> 00:48:00.140 they show up. It's great. 00:48:03.200 --> 00:48:03.400 [Speaker 2]: It's like powered twice or something like 00:48:06.040 --> 00:48:06.220 that because it's like you can use Emacs with 00:48:09.720 --> 00:48:10.220 a thousand different customizations and then 00:48:12.340 --> 00:48:12.720 you can interact with people who can each 00:48:16.540 --> 00:48:17.040 also Use Emacs in a thousand different ways 00:48:17.520 --> 00:48:17.800 [Speaker 1]: Mm-hmm, Right, 00:48:20.200 --> 00:48:20.280 [Speaker 2]: Then you can both learn from each other and 00:48:21.720 --> 00:48:22.040 that can go a thousand different ways. 00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:24.500 So it's like, it's like powering your 00:48:25.240 --> 00:48:25.680 [Speaker 3]: Yep. 00:48:27.400 --> 00:48:27.700 [Speaker 2]: Something along those lines with each other 00:48:30.720 --> 00:48:30.920 and like how different and how much you can 00:48:31.560 --> 00:48:32.060 learn from it. 00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:38.980 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, the kind of touching back to the mentee 00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:42.380 that I have who went, he had originally 00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:44.980 started in Vim and then did VS code. 00:48:47.420 --> 00:48:47.600 And then we were talking and he was gonna go 00:48:50.420 --> 00:48:50.860 into Emacs and I didn't have a, 00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:52.360 I mean, sure, that'd be great. 00:48:53.860 --> 00:48:54.060 But he's like, I don't have a lot of time. 00:48:56.120 --> 00:48:56.620 And I'm like, well, go back to the place that 00:48:57.840 --> 00:48:58.340 you have that experience. 00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:01.280 And he did, And then he started writing Lua 00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:03.340 plugins. He was like, this is so much fun. 00:49:05.380 --> 00:49:05.880 I'm like, good, you're on the right path. 00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:11.340 Like maybe there'll be space like over time, 00:49:13.860 --> 00:49:14.360 how Lua plugins and Emacs, 00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:17.260 you know, who knows? I know that Lua, 00:49:19.040 --> 00:49:19.540 you can use Fennel to write Lisp. 00:49:24.240 --> 00:49:24.740 In you write Lisp and it will transpile 00:49:29.060 --> 00:49:29.560 Fennel to Lua. I forget how that plays out, 00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:32.080 but we're not too far away from those 2 00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:34.980 things being able to play. 00:49:39.020 --> 00:49:39.520 But I guess the question is, 00:49:41.980 --> 00:49:42.480 does it need to? I don't know. 00:49:44.540 --> 00:49:45.040 [Speaker 3]: Yeah, I mean, even without direct code 00:49:47.620 --> 00:49:48.120 translation, the cross-pollination of ideas 00:49:51.460 --> 00:49:51.960 is certainly enough. I love the fact that 00:49:54.720 --> 00:49:54.840 people are borrowing ideas from VS Code and 00:49:57.840 --> 00:49:58.040 from Vim and people look at Emacs videos and 00:49:58.840 --> 00:49:59.020 other things and say, hey, 00:49:59.860 --> 00:50:00.060 that's a cool thing in Emacs, 00:50:01.240 --> 00:50:01.680 but I don't want to ever use Emacs. 00:50:03.240 --> 00:50:03.740 I'm going to do that whole thing in Vim. 00:50:04.600 --> 00:50:05.100 And I think that's fantastic. 00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:07.820 [Speaker 1]: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, 00:50:10.640 --> 00:50:11.140 monocultures die. They just do. 00:50:16.840 --> 00:50:17.340 And computer software and computer industry 00:50:24.120 --> 00:50:24.280 pushes towards monoculture because of it 00:50:26.660 --> 00:50:27.160 wants the highest efficiency. 00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:31.780 And I'm like, I'm not, 00:50:33.640 --> 00:50:34.140 I mean, sometimes I'm here for that, 00:50:35.600 --> 00:50:35.980 but most of the time I'm like, 00:50:37.120 --> 00:50:37.620 I want the bumps and the warts. 00:50:40.680 --> 00:50:41.180 I want the art, the human interaction, 00:50:42.720 --> 00:50:43.220 the like, why are we trying to accomplish 00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:43.860 this? 00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:46.620 [Speaker 2]: It determines, It depends on how you 00:50:49.640 --> 00:50:50.140 determine efficiency because Emacs is far 00:50:52.840 --> 00:50:53.240 Even if Emacs isn't multi-threaded is far 00:50:56.980 --> 00:50:57.480 more efficient because because of the mental 00:51:00.060 --> 00:51:00.220 model shifts because you're able to play and 00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:04.600 tweak with it and then have as much of a 00:51:07.160 --> 00:51:07.360 mental model shift for each task change that 00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:11.260 you want. Like, yeah, I want my file manager 00:51:16.260 --> 00:51:16.760 to not be an editable text buffer. 00:51:18.660 --> 00:51:19.120 Although sometimes when I want to rename 00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:20.820 files, I want it to be that. 00:51:23.800 --> 00:51:24.300 [Speaker 1]: Right. Yeah, and really, 00:51:26.640 --> 00:51:27.040 like, to be clear, I like the idea of Emacs 00:51:29.060 --> 00:51:29.340 as a projection of, like, 00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:30.660 how I think about stuff. 00:51:33.780 --> 00:51:33.960 So it's that whatever my neurons have made a 00:51:37.040 --> 00:51:37.280 good pathway for, I can have Emacs flow with 00:51:41.660 --> 00:51:42.160 me. That efficiency side is I want a factory, 00:51:43.080 --> 00:51:43.480 I want to stamp out widgets, 00:51:44.540 --> 00:51:44.720 I want them to be the same, 00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:45.650 chop, chop, chop, chop, 00:51:51.860 --> 00:51:52.360 chop, chop. That emacs runs in its spirit 00:51:57.180 --> 00:51:57.440 along with vim contrary to that and I like 00:51:57.440 --> 00:51:57.940 that 00:52:00.530 --> 00:52:00.720 [Speaker 2]: emacs is a 1 of the things with the like the 00:52:03.480 --> 00:52:03.680 mental model of Emacs is you should look at 00:52:06.180 --> 00:52:06.660 Emacs like this is probably something that 00:52:08.100 --> 00:52:08.320 people should think about when they are 00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:10.940 introducing Emacs to other people is Emacs is 00:52:15.720 --> 00:52:15.900 a treasure trove of conflicting ways of 00:52:18.080 --> 00:52:18.580 solving the same problem so you get, 00:52:22.040 --> 00:52:22.280 so you can individuate yourself on how you 00:52:23.520 --> 00:52:24.020 actually want to solve that problem. 00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:25.600 [Speaker 3]: Do you 00:52:26.700 --> 00:52:27.200 [Speaker 2]: want Vim bindings or not? 00:52:30.200 --> 00:52:30.580 You get to choose. Or do you want Meow 00:52:31.900 --> 00:52:32.400 bindings? You can choose. 00:52:34.780 --> 00:52:35.280 [Speaker 1]: Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. 00:52:38.780 --> 00:52:39.040 I, I came, I'm, I consider my, 00:52:42.380 --> 00:52:42.660 I, I lament because in 2005 I almost picked 00:52:46.100 --> 00:52:46.240 up Emacs and it wasn't until 2020 that I 00:52:49.040 --> 00:52:49.440 picked it up. And fortunately I picked it up 00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:54.500 when I did because I was able to look at 00:52:58.020 --> 00:52:58.520 things I had previously accomplished and find 00:53:05.140 --> 00:53:05.420 analogs And things like Helm and Ivy were 00:53:08.940 --> 00:53:09.440 both 2 different ways of doing it and consult 00:53:11.600 --> 00:53:12.100 and then, or Selectrum and then consult, 00:53:15.860 --> 00:53:16.060 like they all had these different ways And it 00:53:18.900 --> 00:53:19.400 felt great because I could find the thing 00:53:24.520 --> 00:53:25.020 that worked for me. And they're close, 00:53:27.680 --> 00:53:27.840 but then they also like branch out and do 00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:30.860 things differently. And it was so fascinating 00:53:34.860 --> 00:53:35.020 to explore each of those and spend an hour or 00:53:39.100 --> 00:53:39.360 2 on a primary task in seeing where that 00:53:42.040 --> 00:53:42.540 little thread went. It's great. 00:53:47.200 --> 00:53:47.600 [Speaker 3]: So tell me a bit more about how you got into 00:53:51.040 --> 00:53:51.300 Emacs. What pulled you 00:53:55.120 --> 00:53:55.620 [Speaker 1]: in? Yeah, this is a great little moment. 00:53:59.680 --> 00:54:00.180 I started in TextMate, 00:54:03.280 --> 00:54:03.420 That's kind of where I would say the 00:54:06.460 --> 00:54:06.660 beginning for coding for open source and 00:54:07.840 --> 00:54:08.340 using open source software. 00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:11.920 Sorry, using open source frameworks and 00:54:14.540 --> 00:54:15.040 languages. So TextMate to Sublime, 00:54:18.260 --> 00:54:18.580 basically TextMate couldn't search very well 00:54:20.740 --> 00:54:21.060 at the time. It was getting bogged down. 00:54:21.640 --> 00:54:22.080 So I moved to Sublime, 00:54:23.260 --> 00:54:23.760 which solved it, felt well, 00:54:27.900 --> 00:54:28.400 carried the same UI look with me. 00:54:30.680 --> 00:54:31.180 And then when I was at a conference, 00:54:34.540 --> 00:54:34.860 there was a talk about using an open source 00:54:36.600 --> 00:54:36.880 editor. I was like, yeah, 00:54:38.720 --> 00:54:39.220 I need to do that. I really need to. 00:54:43.080 --> 00:54:43.260 And Adam was viable. I was like, 00:54:44.320 --> 00:54:44.820 Oh, this is really close. 00:54:47.120 --> 00:54:47.360 I'll use it. And I didn't think too much 00:54:49.540 --> 00:54:49.680 about it. And then the writing was on the 00:54:51.120 --> 00:54:51.620 wall, that Adam is going away. 00:54:55.760 --> 00:54:56.040 And I was like, I need to find an open source 00:54:57.100 --> 00:54:57.600 editor that speaks to me. 00:54:59.200 --> 00:54:59.440 And I said, all right, 00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:01.260 Vim, This is my fifth time. 00:55:06.300 --> 00:55:06.800 I will try. And I gave an earnest 2 weeks. 00:55:09.060 --> 00:55:09.440 And I'm just like, I cannot get this mental 00:55:11.600 --> 00:55:11.840 model in my head. So I'm like, 00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:13.200 all right, I set it down. 00:55:14.540 --> 00:55:15.040 I can use Vim, I'm comfortable. 00:55:15.940 --> 00:55:16.360 I think it's a great tool, 00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:19.500 but my mental model doesn't map well there. 00:55:21.040 --> 00:55:21.420 And I'm like, all right, 00:55:24.780 --> 00:55:25.280 here we go, VS code. All right, 00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:28.520 you're fine. But I feel like I might 00:55:31.340 --> 00:55:31.500 accidentally charge my credit card in the 00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:33.500 text editor on the default installation. 00:55:38.680 --> 00:55:39.180 And that was alluded to by in 1 of the talks, 00:55:46.120 --> 00:55:46.620 I forget who he German about mandating Emacs 00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:48.500 in his computer science classes. 00:55:51.020 --> 00:55:51.220 He mentioned like the Microsoft Office or 00:55:54.060 --> 00:55:54.560 Microsoft Marketplace felt like it was there. 00:55:58.860 --> 00:55:59.060 So that was 1, but the moment where I was 00:56:02.380 --> 00:56:02.880 like, oh, hell no, VS Code. 00:56:08.520 --> 00:56:08.940 Or I wanted to use a commit from the command 00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:12.780 palette, and it brought up an HTML text input 00:56:15.060 --> 00:56:15.560 area, and it was 30 characters. 00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:23.500 And in that moment, I saw several things. 00:56:27.040 --> 00:56:27.140 1, I'm like, no, that's terrible because I 00:56:28.100 --> 00:56:28.600 want to write something meaningful. 00:56:33.640 --> 00:56:33.900 2, this is the behavior that this tool is 00:56:38.960 --> 00:56:39.240 modeling. That tells me that history and like 00:56:41.320 --> 00:56:41.820 how it is built is not important. 00:56:47.160 --> 00:56:47.320 And yes, I can fix it and get around it. 00:56:49.240 --> 00:56:49.740 And I kind of did. And I was like, 00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:51.860 the principles are just, 00:56:53.680 --> 00:56:54.180 they're there. And then also understanding 00:56:56.100 --> 00:56:56.600 like there's a bunch of telemetry underneath 00:56:58.860 --> 00:56:59.360 it. So I used VS Codium, 00:57:00.240 --> 00:57:00.740 there's still telemetry. 00:57:03.340 --> 00:57:03.840 And I was like, all right, 00:57:07.380 --> 00:57:07.880 2005 Jeremy, let's go try Emacs, 00:57:08.940 --> 00:57:09.440 let's see if we can do it. 00:57:13.860 --> 00:57:14.360 And I hopped in, I grabbed Space Max. 00:57:16.640 --> 00:57:17.020 I was Like, yeah, this works pretty well. 00:57:18.740 --> 00:57:18.960 Like, I don't know how to use the keys very 00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:21.380 well. I'm figuring it out. 00:57:26.040 --> 00:57:26.400 And. And I was like, you know what? 00:57:27.340 --> 00:57:27.840 Why don't I do the tutorial? 00:57:30.860 --> 00:57:31.360 And it was the tutorial that hooked me. 00:57:36.820 --> 00:57:37.320 Not because everything made 100% sense 00:57:42.440 --> 00:57:42.620 because Emacs is old. It had a lot of 00:57:45.420 --> 00:57:45.920 language that was hard to internalize, 00:57:50.500 --> 00:57:50.740 but it presented it in a conversational I'm 00:57:52.360 --> 00:57:52.600 gonna meet you where you're at and we're 00:57:53.440 --> 00:57:53.940 gonna walk with it together. 00:57:56.480 --> 00:57:56.980 And then when I was done with the tutorial, 00:57:58.420 --> 00:57:58.740 I said, you know, Space Max, 00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:00.060 I don't understand it. 00:58:00.920 --> 00:58:01.420 And it's got some performance. 00:58:04.180 --> 00:58:04.300 It looks like there's like extra stuff that I 00:58:08.420 --> 00:58:08.920 may not need. So I went vanilla, 00:58:11.780 --> 00:58:12.280 nothing Emacs and just started working. 00:58:14.060 --> 00:58:14.560 I was like, well, how do you do this? 00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:17.460 [Speaker 2]: Although 5 minutes of Space Max or any of 00:58:19.600 --> 00:58:20.100 those Emacs distribution shows you 00:58:22.360 --> 00:58:22.860 unequivocally how different it can be. 00:58:25.880 --> 00:58:26.380 [Speaker 1]: It was, it was, it was so amazing, 00:58:31.600 --> 00:58:32.100 and it was so good. But I knew my nature was, 00:58:34.780 --> 00:58:35.140 I was frustrated in, like I wrote an Atom 00:58:37.780 --> 00:58:38.280 package, and that was awful. 00:58:42.860 --> 00:58:43.360 It was so terrible. But I knew what I wanted. 00:58:48.280 --> 00:58:48.480 And then I wrote, I started writing a VS code 00:58:49.640 --> 00:58:49.840 and I'm like, oh no, no, 00:58:50.800 --> 00:58:51.300 no, we're not here for this. 00:58:55.520 --> 00:58:55.800 And so, yeah, SpaceMax showed me like this 00:59:00.600 --> 00:59:00.760 can look and feel like a space that I used to 00:59:03.920 --> 00:59:04.420 be in. And then it has more functionality, 00:59:07.440 --> 00:59:07.940 more stuff. It's gonna be great. 00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:10.380 And then I just was like, 00:59:11.880 --> 00:59:12.380 I'm gonna go find my own. 00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:16.200 I'm really happy that I took the path because 00:59:19.300 --> 00:59:19.640 I just worked, wrote, and I'm like, 00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:21.380 I bet you this, I bet you the tool, 00:59:22.540 --> 00:59:22.960 I know it can do this because it, 00:59:24.620 --> 00:59:25.120 you know, text me, did this or Adam, 00:59:27.800 --> 00:59:28.300 I'm gonna go, I went on to Melpa and I found 00:59:29.440 --> 00:59:29.940 a couple different things. 00:59:31.120 --> 00:59:31.440 I'm like, all right, let's try them. 00:59:32.320 --> 00:59:32.640 I'm like, that's the 1, 00:59:34.480 --> 00:59:34.980 great. Roll it in, keep working. 00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:36.500 I know it can do this. 00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:40.160 Find a package. And so I built up this sense 00:59:46.060 --> 00:59:46.160 of the packages and my strategy was go to 00:59:49.680 --> 00:59:49.940 Melpa, look at, that was the 1 that showed 00:59:52.540 --> 00:59:53.040 up, look at the number of downloads. 00:59:54.520 --> 00:59:54.960 So I'm like, what's the high stuff? 00:59:55.900 --> 00:59:56.400 What really gets used? 00:59:57.680 --> 00:59:58.180 There's something there. 01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:00.760 And then also look at what was most recently 01:00:03.420 --> 01:00:03.580 updated. So kind of pivot on those along with 01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:07.260 a keyword search and I found the tools that 01:00:17.780 --> 01:00:18.100 worked well. But it really came down to like 01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:20.460 that VS Code I was almost in, 01:00:24.400 --> 01:00:24.640 but I've been around long enough to know what 01:00:25.560 --> 01:00:26.060 Microsoft will do. 01:00:32.240 --> 01:00:32.540 [Speaker 2]: For me, I was always like customizing things. 01:00:34.600 --> 01:00:35.100 I think I saw some interesting emacs videos. 01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:42.720 I wanted to try Well, I wanted to try working 01:00:44.500 --> 01:00:44.720 more with the keyboard and not need I think 01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:47.300 [Speaker 1]: mm-hmm 01:00:51.180 --> 01:00:51.680 [Speaker 2]: the mouse on a laptop And so I was looking 01:00:54.380 --> 01:00:54.520 explicitly for ways to just work on the 01:00:56.920 --> 01:00:57.400 keyboard only, which meant that I wasn't 01:00:59.060 --> 01:00:59.560 looking for programs that followed Cua, 01:01:04.400 --> 01:01:04.900 which really leaves you like 2 options, 01:01:10.960 --> 01:01:11.380 Vim and Emacs. And when I looked at the 2, 01:01:13.940 --> 01:01:14.100 I saw 1 of the big differentiating factors I 01:01:15.660 --> 01:01:16.020 saw was Tramp, which was, 01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:18.600 oh, you mean I get a SSH into a machine and 01:01:19.840 --> 01:01:20.340 have my customizations too? 01:01:22.740 --> 01:01:23.240 [Speaker 1]: Yep. Yeah. 01:01:29.140 --> 01:01:29.540 [Speaker 2]: And then I started using Emacs more and more. 01:01:34.440 --> 01:01:34.860 Eventually I combined that with a tiling 01:01:36.400 --> 01:01:36.900 window manager, NixOS, 01:01:40.840 --> 01:01:41.040 and started banishing as much of the GUI as I 01:01:44.060 --> 01:01:44.560 possibly could, running MPV or VLC, 01:01:49.180 --> 01:01:49.400 so I could edit so that my config files could 01:01:53.720 --> 01:01:54.020 be keyboard oriented. My settings config 01:01:55.920 --> 01:01:56.420 menus are now keyboard oriented. 01:02:00.860 --> 01:02:01.080 And yeah, that was the incremental process of 01:02:04.400 --> 01:02:04.900 just, yeah, making the computer nicer, 01:02:06.680 --> 01:02:06.860 more efficient, and then you figure out all 01:02:08.080 --> 01:02:08.580 the other advantages of the... 01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:13.780 [Speaker 1]: Yeah. How did you get in to it, 01:02:18.940 --> 01:02:19.440 [Speaker 2]: Oh, you're lost. 01:02:21.840 --> 01:02:22.340 [Speaker 1]: Sasha? Your sound is gone. 01:02:27.345 --> 01:02:27.845 [Speaker 3]: Sorry, my face mute button. 01:02:29.600 --> 01:02:29.800 Okay, I'll tell you that story, 01:02:30.840 --> 01:02:31.080 I get thought out of my head, 01:02:32.780 --> 01:02:33.240 so I forget it. But what you described, 01:02:34.900 --> 01:02:35.080 Jerry, about kind of starting with the 01:02:37.340 --> 01:02:37.540 distribution and then pulling back and 01:02:39.140 --> 01:02:39.520 starting with vanilla and building up, 01:02:41.040 --> 01:02:41.320 kind of close the stories that I've heard 01:02:42.980 --> 01:02:43.480 from a lot of people in the community where 01:02:46.600 --> 01:02:46.800 the distribution gives them kind of an end 01:02:48.140 --> 01:02:48.640 goal, at least work requirements, 01:02:50.280 --> 01:02:50.600 So get the stuff done and they're not 01:02:52.260 --> 01:02:52.760 slugging through the weeds around the start. 01:02:55.440 --> 01:02:55.760 I have a hard time modifying it because 01:02:57.440 --> 01:02:57.720 modifying the distribution itself is very 01:02:59.140 --> 01:02:59.640 different from the tools they see. 01:03:01.520 --> 01:03:01.740 They feel like they want to understand the 01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:02.820 different possible part. 01:03:04.240 --> 01:03:04.540 And so then they pull back and say, 01:03:06.300 --> 01:03:06.800 okay, I've got this thing that can use 01:03:08.360 --> 01:03:08.680 everything to just get some quick work done, 01:03:10.380 --> 01:03:10.760 but I have this thing that I can call, 01:03:13.500 --> 01:03:13.680 that's mine. And I understand because I'm 01:03:15.960 --> 01:03:16.460 building it up from the ground up. 01:03:19.540 --> 01:03:19.640 Okay, so that's like, oh, 01:03:21.500 --> 01:03:21.660 interesting, there's a lot of people who are 01:03:23.940 --> 01:03:24.280 like that, and it really helps them to both 01:03:27.240 --> 01:03:27.620 have that insight, which is see through 01:03:29.540 --> 01:03:29.780 distributions and also videos of other 01:03:32.060 --> 01:03:32.220 people's workflows and press kind of 01:03:34.080 --> 01:03:34.500 conference presentations often about 01:03:35.140 --> 01:03:35.540 completely different topics, 01:03:37.540 --> 01:03:37.700 right? So someone whizzing through Ruby on 01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:40.420 Rails or whatever else and doing all of this. 01:03:43.580 --> 01:03:44.040 But also having 1 help them break out, 01:03:46.560 --> 01:03:46.760 okay, well, there's a lot of work from where 01:03:47.900 --> 01:03:48.160 I am to where that is. 01:03:49.740 --> 01:03:50.240 How do I do it without being overwhelmed? 01:03:51.400 --> 01:03:52.960 Because if they try to learn everything, 01:03:55.520 --> 01:03:55.760 they'll go crazy. And then they'll fall. 01:03:57.500 --> 01:03:58.000 And the brain is super important. 01:04:01.500 --> 01:04:01.860 And how I got into this whole eMac thing was 01:04:03.520 --> 01:04:03.780 I was reading all the computer science books 01:04:06.180 --> 01:04:06.480 in the university library and 1 of the Unix 01:04:09.160 --> 01:04:09.360 power tools had a chapter on Emacs and had 01:04:11.040 --> 01:04:11.320 them you know well there's another type of 01:04:14.440 --> 01:04:14.760 whatever. Okay that's interesting so I went 01:04:17.080 --> 01:04:17.320 and tried it out But the reason I really got 01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:19.780 into it was because I was using John Wigley's 01:04:23.520 --> 01:04:23.760 Planner Mode. This was before Org Mode came 01:04:25.320 --> 01:04:25.600 about. So Planner Mode was a link. 01:04:27.040 --> 01:04:27.540 I said, hey, this is great. 01:04:29.380 --> 01:04:29.880 I'm looking for ways to help out. 01:04:31.560 --> 01:04:32.060 If you need help verifying any bugs, 01:04:34.160 --> 01:04:34.660 you know, send it to me and I'll do the 01:04:37.540 --> 01:04:37.840 figuring out. He's an author and an inventor. 01:04:37.960 --> 01:04:38.100 [Speaker 2]: And then 01:04:39.480 --> 01:04:39.980 [Speaker 3]: he made me the miniature for it. 01:04:42.720 --> 01:04:42.880 So I'm like, okay. And then that's how I got 01:04:44.680 --> 01:04:45.140 to know this wonderful community of people 01:04:46.840 --> 01:04:47.340 who customize emacs so much. 01:04:51.680 --> 01:04:52.180 And it just goes there because really, 01:04:54.100 --> 01:04:54.240 when you see all these different ways that 01:04:55.860 --> 01:04:56.360 people use in all these different stories 01:05:00.060 --> 01:05:00.480 that you get send off because they're using 01:05:03.960 --> 01:05:04.460 it to bake sourdough bread and do knitting 01:05:06.700 --> 01:05:06.880 and all the crazy things that people come up 01:05:08.900 --> 01:05:09.400 with. I've been using it as an audio editor. 01:05:11.000 --> 01:05:11.500 It's just weird. It's just fun. 01:05:13.100 --> 01:05:13.600 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, that's great. 01:05:19.640 --> 01:05:20.020 [Speaker 2]: Yeah. Every, Sasha, like 2 things that I was 01:05:22.900 --> 01:05:23.040 meaning to say is every time I see the on the 01:05:26.140 --> 01:05:26.580 EMAX conference the time that the scratch 01:05:29.900 --> 01:05:30.400 buffer with the big clock that is ticking 01:05:34.980 --> 01:05:35.480 down as and the multi multiple sized fonts As 01:05:37.720 --> 01:05:37.900 I always think wow, that's really cool. 01:05:38.980 --> 01:05:39.280 I didn't know Emacs could do that. 01:05:40.440 --> 01:05:40.940 Wait, no, I saw that last year. 01:05:43.860 --> 01:05:44.060 How do you do, now, how do I do that? 01:05:45.360 --> 01:05:45.480 Cause that's not, and that's not something I 01:05:46.920 --> 01:05:47.420 normally even think about Emacs doing. 01:05:48.080 --> 01:05:48.580 [Speaker 1]: Right. 01:05:51.220 --> 01:05:51.720 [Speaker 2]: I'll think about putting 01:05:55.760 --> 01:05:56.260 [Speaker 3]: There's an EmacsConf-stream.el 01:05:59.760 --> 01:06:00.260 in the EmacsConf-el repository. 01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:04.160 Grab the link and open but you can grab the 01:06:07.940 --> 01:06:08.260 code from there. It's basically the text 01:06:08.260 --> 01:06:08.760 property. 01:06:15.020 --> 01:06:15.480 [Speaker 2]: But it's a thought that has repeated multiple 01:06:17.140 --> 01:06:17.460 years. Like, I didn't know we could do that 01:06:18.220 --> 01:06:18.720 way. I thought about that. 01:06:21.260 --> 01:06:21.600 I had this exact thought last year when I saw 01:06:21.600 --> 01:06:22.100 it. 01:06:28.260 --> 01:06:28.480 [Speaker 1]: It's, we're like, I'm at the point where it's 01:06:31.220 --> 01:06:31.620 like I have memories of remembering doing 01:06:34.540 --> 01:06:35.040 something. I don't have memories of doing it. 01:06:36.680 --> 01:06:37.180 Like all of the things. 01:06:40.560 --> 01:06:41.060 Like so it's again, we, 01:06:45.240 --> 01:06:45.740 Emacs helps expose like the, 01:06:48.640 --> 01:06:49.140 like it's, anything's possible. 01:06:53.300 --> 01:06:53.560 And we see how it becomes possible through 01:06:55.640 --> 01:06:56.120 other people. And then it gets our brains 01:06:57.780 --> 01:06:58.140 thinking about other ways of doing stuff. 01:06:59.920 --> 01:07:00.420 And I think that's the exciting part. 01:07:02.360 --> 01:07:02.860 Dog who wants to go play Frisbee. 01:07:07.900 --> 01:07:08.080 [Speaker 3]: And that's actually 1 of the reasons why I 01:07:11.060 --> 01:07:11.320 want to encourage people to not only talk 01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:12.980 about Emacs and write Emacs blog posts, 01:07:15.380 --> 01:07:15.520 but also actually demonstrate Emacs in the 01:07:16.560 --> 01:07:17.060 sense of doing something else. 01:07:20.220 --> 01:07:20.720 So for example, we can match people at Emacs 01:07:23.560 --> 01:07:24.000 if you're presenting about Ruby on Rails and 01:07:27.040 --> 01:07:27.440 you're doing all of your and education and 01:07:30.240 --> 01:07:30.480 things while you're presenting Rails, 01:07:32.900 --> 01:07:33.400 you reach all these people who are interested 01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:34.780 in Rails, developer Rails, 01:07:36.260 --> 01:07:36.760 but might not have even considered Emacs. 01:07:41.920 --> 01:07:42.420 And here, you know, you probably would. 01:07:44.860 --> 01:07:45.060 I would probably have a hard time writing an 01:07:47.040 --> 01:07:47.540 entire talk about adding text properties, 01:07:49.540 --> 01:07:49.760 but the fact that there's a thing here that 01:07:50.800 --> 01:07:51.300 shows, hey, this is possible, 01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:53.300 Emacs can get people to think, 01:07:54.880 --> 01:07:55.380 okay, so how do I get from here to there? 01:07:57.440 --> 01:07:57.940 Just showing the possible. 01:08:02.120 --> 01:08:02.360 Yeah. Which source code is in the, 01:08:02.360 --> 01:08:02.860 whatchamacallit. 01:08:04.600 --> 01:08:05.100 [Speaker 1]: Right, yeah. Yeah, I just saw that. 01:08:08.240 --> 01:08:08.740 [Speaker 2]: There's a weird interesting thing how Emacs 01:08:12.540 --> 01:08:12.720 dovetails with people who are interested in 01:08:15.940 --> 01:08:16.439 making their own local first Zettelkasten, 01:08:17.720 --> 01:08:18.220 because look at how many Zettelkasten 01:08:21.300 --> 01:08:21.600 packages you have. Especially with how much, 01:08:23.800 --> 01:08:24.100 like it feels like, it seems like Emacs has 01:08:27.439 --> 01:08:27.939 more than Vim, but Vim is bigger or VS, 01:08:30.140 --> 01:08:30.420 feels like it has more than Vim or VS Code, 01:08:31.920 --> 01:08:32.319 and VS Code's bigger. I'm not sure, 01:08:36.819 --> 01:08:37.319 but it feels like it. Same thing with that 01:08:39.920 --> 01:08:40.420 HyperCore. That HyperCore felt more like a 01:08:42.540 --> 01:08:43.040 local first peer-to-peer system. 01:08:48.240 --> 01:08:48.640 So there's a weird dovetail where they want 01:08:52.279 --> 01:08:52.779 the knowledge bases that are local first, 01:08:58.260 --> 01:08:58.359 comprehensive, because 1 of the properties of 01:09:03.500 --> 01:09:03.740 the Zettelkasten or Org Mode agendas is that 01:09:07.359 --> 01:09:07.819 it's all your notes in 1 place. 01:09:14.439 --> 01:09:14.760 It's not, you know, your notes in either pad 01:09:19.540 --> 01:09:20.040 and your notes in Google Calendar, 01:09:23.180 --> 01:09:23.680 your notes in 20 different places, 01:09:24.520 --> 01:09:25.020 your notes in Evernote. 01:09:28.700 --> 01:09:29.060 It's your notes in 1 program in 1 place 01:09:30.840 --> 01:09:31.080 because you have to deal with them And 01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:32.800 they're going to be in files on your hard 01:09:34.279 --> 01:09:34.779 drive, and you're going to have packages 01:09:37.080 --> 01:09:37.359 there. That's the other weird thing too, 01:09:40.240 --> 01:09:40.600 is how many, like, you install an Emacs 01:09:41.399 --> 01:09:41.899 package, 1 of the guarantees, 01:09:43.439 --> 01:09:43.640 some of the guarantees you seem to get with 01:09:46.260 --> 01:09:46.680 it is if it does use an external program, 01:09:48.399 --> 01:09:48.580 it's going to have a lot of configuration in 01:09:51.020 --> 01:09:51.520 Emacs. It's going to be installed. 01:09:53.760 --> 01:09:54.260 It's going to be local first. 01:09:56.780 --> 01:09:57.100 Cause like you have flow bits, 01:09:59.340 --> 01:09:59.840 but how many programs like are, 01:10:05.140 --> 01:10:05.280 are cloud first. And it feels like most of 01:10:06.820 --> 01:10:07.320 those are like org Trello, 01:10:10.160 --> 01:10:10.520 where it's like, I want to use org mode, 01:10:12.040 --> 01:10:12.540 but other people use Trello. 01:10:15.460 --> 01:10:15.780 So I'm going to be grudgingly using this org 01:10:17.400 --> 01:10:17.660 Trello to be a bridge between the 2, 01:10:19.200 --> 01:10:19.640 not because I wanted to use org, 01:10:21.240 --> 01:10:21.360 not because I wanted to use Trello in the 01:10:23.200 --> 01:10:23.320 first place or I started off with Trello and 01:10:24.280 --> 01:10:24.780 now I wanna use org mode. 01:10:27.680 --> 01:10:28.180 [Speaker 1]: Right, no, you're that local first. 01:10:37.020 --> 01:10:37.400 The Thought I have is with the 2022 interest 01:10:43.080 --> 01:10:43.580 rates going up, the era of free money, 01:10:46.520 --> 01:10:47.020 or even like getting money for more, 01:10:49.960 --> 01:10:50.180 more money than it actually costs Like it was 01:10:55.600 --> 01:10:56.100 minting money. We are going to be seeing how 01:10:59.440 --> 01:10:59.940 these organizations that had financial 01:11:01.840 --> 01:11:02.340 runways, all of these cloud services, 01:11:06.760 --> 01:11:07.020 what's not gonna last because there's no 01:11:12.440 --> 01:11:12.880 funding. And like the durability of our local 01:11:16.400 --> 01:11:16.900 first plain text, free open source stuff. 01:11:21.320 --> 01:11:21.820 Like I won't have to do a content migration 01:11:24.320 --> 01:11:24.740 unless I get a B of my bonnet and want to 01:11:27.700 --> 01:11:27.880 like change from org mode to markdown for 01:11:30.660 --> 01:11:30.920 some reason. Like I have it and Then I can 01:11:32.980 --> 01:11:33.480 send it out. So there's also like that posse 01:11:36.400 --> 01:11:36.900 principle publish on-site syndicate 01:11:41.660 --> 01:11:41.820 everywhere Is what emacs and vim like they 01:11:42.780 --> 01:11:43.280 allow for us to do? 01:11:46.440 --> 01:11:46.620 [Speaker 2]: Well, that's part of the individuation is you 01:11:48.900 --> 01:11:49.080 have multiple options of doing something so 01:11:51.580 --> 01:11:51.820 you can choose something so you can take 01:11:54.360 --> 01:11:54.860 ownership of your data in the way you want. 01:12:00.220 --> 01:12:00.380 It all dovetails into each other and I think 01:12:02.840 --> 01:12:03.260 that's something worth thinking about, 01:12:05.540 --> 01:12:05.800 especially in relation with who should learn 01:12:08.040 --> 01:12:08.440 and how should you introduce Emacs to people, 01:12:14.180 --> 01:12:14.420 because like, with the idea of people should 01:12:16.560 --> 01:12:16.800 try an Emacs distribution and then start 01:12:17.240 --> 01:12:17.740 their own from scratch, 01:12:18.880 --> 01:12:19.120 just so that they, like, 01:12:20.280 --> 01:12:20.640 if you use it for 10 minutes, 01:12:24.400 --> 01:12:24.820 you'll gain so much because you use your 3 01:12:25.760 --> 01:12:26.260 and then all of a sudden you realize, 01:12:29.180 --> 01:12:29.440 you also know how malleable Emacs can be. 01:12:30.520 --> 01:12:30.960 And then you start saying, 01:12:32.000 --> 01:12:32.160 now, how do I do that? 01:12:33.240 --> 01:12:33.740 So I get to make those choices? 01:12:34.840 --> 01:12:35.340 [Speaker 1]: Yeah. 01:12:39.340 --> 01:12:39.520 [Speaker 2]: Or you might say, this person did it well 01:12:40.320 --> 01:12:40.820 enough, I don't have to. 01:12:43.500 --> 01:12:43.900 [Speaker 3]: That reminded me of something that I also 01:12:45.360 --> 01:12:45.860 wanted to mention, shocking word, 01:12:49.040 --> 01:12:49.280 as in malleability. Another tip I came 01:12:50.600 --> 01:12:50.900 across, don't know from whom, 01:12:51.500 --> 01:12:51.700 might have been from you, 01:12:53.440 --> 01:12:53.940 I don't know, is to define aliases, 01:12:56.320 --> 01:12:56.460 because we use different words from what the 01:12:58.680 --> 01:12:59.180 functions are. It's 1 of those little meta 01:13:00.420 --> 01:13:00.720 things that, you know, 01:13:02.080 --> 01:13:02.580 If you keep calling it something else, 01:13:05.900 --> 01:13:06.020 just define it so that you can call it like 01:13:06.760 --> 01:13:07.260 commencing your words. 01:13:12.440 --> 01:13:12.740 [Speaker 1]: it's interesting. Anyway, 01:13:14.020 --> 01:13:14.240 [Speaker 3]: Yeah. Yeah, gotta go disappear and get ready 01:13:17.220 --> 01:13:17.360 for my dog. Okay, I'll listen to what you 01:13:18.120 --> 01:13:18.280 say. All right, I 01:13:20.020 --> 01:13:20.520 [Speaker 1]: I need to take my dogs out and play Frisbee. 01:13:21.780 --> 01:13:22.280 They have been so patient. 01:13:26.040 --> 01:13:26.200 So it was great talking with all of you and 01:13:29.640 --> 01:13:30.040 Sasha, thanks for the organizing energy 01:13:31.680 --> 01:13:32.120 you've put into this. Plasma Strike, 01:13:32.800 --> 01:13:33.300 thank you for your presentation. 01:13:34.860 --> 01:13:35.360 I love this conference. 01:13:36.660 --> 01:13:37.160 So thank you very much. 01:13:41.760 --> 01:13:42.260 And now have a good rest of your Sunday. 01:13:43.100 --> 01:13:43.600 Bye.