WEBVTT 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:09.519 [Speaker 0]: 5 seconds. I keep forgetting we have an 00:00:11.120 --> 00:00:11.620 introduction now. The introduction is flying. 00:00:20.560 --> 00:00:20.900 [Speaker 1]: You're going to give a 30 second, 00:00:23.820 --> 00:00:24.320 [Speaker 0]: Well, it's about 5 seconds now. 00:00:27.900 --> 00:00:28.400 [Speaker 1]: right? Just say go when you want me to go. 00:00:30.780 --> 00:00:31.280 [Speaker 0]: Sure. You'll hear me anyway. 00:00:31.800 --> 00:00:32.299 [Speaker 1]: Okay. 00:00:34.900 --> 00:00:35.220 [Speaker 0]: All right, I think we are live now. 00:00:35.800 --> 00:00:36.100 So hi again, everyone. 00:00:37.680 --> 00:00:37.900 I promised you we would be back in about 30 00:00:39.440 --> 00:00:39.940 seconds. I lied, it was actually 1 minute, 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:41.760 but we are here with Bob. 00:00:42.340 --> 00:00:42.840 Hi, Bob, how are you doing? 00:00:46.780 --> 00:00:46.940 [Speaker 1]: Hi, doing great. Glad to 00:00:50.220 --> 00:00:50.600 [Speaker 0]: be with you. Yeah, glad to be here, 00:00:52.340 --> 00:00:52.580 and so are we. We're glad to have you again 00:00:54.280 --> 00:00:54.400 this year. So what we're going to do, 00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:56.140 we're not going to waste any time right now 00:00:57.739 --> 00:00:57.880 with chit-chats. What we're going to do, 00:00:58.940 --> 00:00:59.059 we're going to move straight into your 00:01:00.860 --> 00:01:01.120 presentation, Bob, so that you have as much 00:01:04.080 --> 00:01:04.239 time as you can. I'm going to recede into the 00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:07.440 background. I am going to full screen your 00:01:08.479 --> 00:01:08.979 presentation on a stream. 00:01:11.180 --> 00:01:11.680 And Bob, the floor is all yours. 00:01:14.220 --> 00:01:14.720 [Speaker 1]: Thank you very much, Leo. 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:18.400 Glad to be here. I hope everybody has an idea 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:22.780 of what Hyperbole is, but it's a broad 00:01:25.380 --> 00:01:25.880 information management system inside Emacs 00:01:28.040 --> 00:01:28.540 that works in all major modes. 00:01:31.560 --> 00:01:31.760 It's a global minor mode that you can turn on 00:01:34.540 --> 00:01:34.760 and off very rapidly so that you can just get 00:01:35.660 --> 00:01:36.160 in and out of hyperbole. 00:01:40.440 --> 00:01:40.940 And it works mostly from a mini buffer menu 00:01:43.940 --> 00:01:44.040 that if we just hit ctrl H H we see at the 00:01:47.220 --> 00:01:47.420 bottom of the screen here and as you see in 00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:48.980 some of this text right here, 00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:55.680 Dee will show you a demo with all these video 00:01:57.180 --> 00:01:57.680 links of Hyperbole now. 00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:01.780 But let's just get into the top 10 reasons to 00:02:08.340 --> 00:02:08.840 use Hyperbole. Number 10 is a key series 00:02:12.100 --> 00:02:12.600 curly braces. So you just put curly braces 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:17.620 around any set of key sequences that you want 00:02:22.200 --> 00:02:22.440 and hyperbole magically turns that into what 00:02:25.440 --> 00:02:25.640 we call an implicit button a hyper button and 00:02:28.340 --> 00:02:28.580 any kind of text that you have so if we go 00:02:35.260 --> 00:02:35.760 down here and we just click click here we see 00:02:39.720 --> 00:02:40.220 it that was a complex button that said let's 00:02:42.700 --> 00:02:43.200 start a shell, let's set an environment 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:45.140 variable as you see the command right up 00:02:47.220 --> 00:02:47.420 there, and then let's do a grep over the 00:02:50.500 --> 00:02:50.680 hyperbole code and find all instances of a 00:02:54.860 --> 00:02:55.360 particular label. So if we hit made a return, 00:02:56.760 --> 00:02:57.260 that's called the action key. 00:02:59.120 --> 00:02:59.340 That's what you use throughout hyperbole when 00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:01.900 you just want to activate any kind of button. 00:03:06.200 --> 00:03:06.380 So you see it jumped to the grep output and 00:03:08.260 --> 00:03:08.440 this is in a shell buffer it's not in a 00:03:10.900 --> 00:03:11.180 compilation buffer so anywhere that you have 00:03:13.260 --> 00:03:13.760 this sort of thing it's also an implicit 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:17.040 button and any sort of grep output or 00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:20.780 compiler output you can just jump to with the 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:23.580 same key, made a return. 00:03:28.740 --> 00:03:29.240 So that's key series, the first part. 00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:33.880 And then just to note that you can also just 00:03:38.760 --> 00:03:39.000 do a, well I'll just do it here and show you 00:03:43.040 --> 00:03:43.380 that you can do a recursive grep with this 00:03:45.340 --> 00:03:45.840 hyperbole command, HYPBR grep. 00:03:48.500 --> 00:03:49.000 And if you're in an Emacs list buffer, 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:54.740 it will only grep across the Emacs list. 00:03:58.100 --> 00:03:58.340 So a very handy way to just go through your 00:04:00.600 --> 00:04:01.040 code very rapidly and then jump to various 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:04.280 points in it. So we have a lot to cover 00:04:05.600 --> 00:04:05.800 today, so I'm going to go through this 00:04:07.060 --> 00:04:07.560 rapidly. This isn't a tutorial, 00:04:10.200 --> 00:04:10.340 it's just to get you interested in some of 00:04:12.900 --> 00:04:13.060 the features, and then there's a ton of 00:04:15.420 --> 00:04:15.920 reference material and videos now available 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:18.860 for Hyperlink. So let's go to number 9. 00:04:21.860 --> 00:04:22.360 Path names become implicit buttons. 00:04:23.700 --> 00:04:24.060 You don't even have to quote them. 00:04:26.460 --> 00:04:26.920 You can add environment variables or elist 00:04:28.700 --> 00:04:29.200 variables with the syntax right here. 00:04:31.820 --> 00:04:32.180 So here we have a shell script that's 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:33.500 somewhere on our path. 00:04:35.940 --> 00:04:36.380 And notice path is an environment variable 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:39.140 with many different paths within it, 00:04:42.100 --> 00:04:42.600 right? But Hyperbole knows that and it 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:44.980 searches the path, gets the first match, 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:48.620 finds it, and finds the actual shell script. 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:50.420 So you can just embed that anywhere. 00:04:51.660 --> 00:04:52.160 Here we have a list variable, 00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:54.360 hyperbdur, which is the home directory for 00:04:57.620 --> 00:04:58.120 hyperbole, and then a markdown file, 00:05:01.180 --> 00:05:01.680 and a link to a direct section in the file, 00:05:04.880 --> 00:05:05.220 and the 5 colon 5 means go to line 5 within 00:05:06.760 --> 00:05:07.260 that section and column 5. 00:05:08.900 --> 00:05:09.400 So let's just try it. Boom, 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:11.500 we're right there, and we're on another link 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:13.220 that we could activate as well. 00:05:17.620 --> 00:05:17.960 So notice the next line is the same link but 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:20.280 this is how you normally have to do it in a 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:23.160 markdown file. You have to change the section 00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:25.640 header to have dashes but with hyperbole you 00:05:27.620 --> 00:05:28.120 don't have to. You can just put it exactly 00:05:29.340 --> 00:05:29.840 like you see it in your file. 00:05:34.440 --> 00:05:34.660 Here the pound syntax for sections is really 00:05:36.140 --> 00:05:36.640 a generic syntax in the hyperbole. 00:05:39.660 --> 00:05:39.840 And so it works in all different kinds of 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:41.500 files, your programming files. 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:45.240 Here's a shell script and we said let's just 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:49.120 go to the first comment that has alias in it. 00:05:51.300 --> 00:05:51.700 Notice we didn't have to say the whole line, 00:05:52.700 --> 00:05:53.160 just the first part of it. 00:05:57.880 --> 00:05:58.140 And it matched to it. Here we have a link to 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:01.680 our hyperbole structured outliner called the 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:04.660 K Outliner. And you can see it auto-numbers 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:08.000 all these cells. But in addition to just 00:06:10.280 --> 00:06:10.640 displaying, you can also add a pipe symbol 00:06:14.440 --> 00:06:14.900 near the end and use this view syntax to clip 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:17.500 to 2 lines and show blank lines. 00:06:19.760 --> 00:06:19.920 So let's see if each node gets clipped to 2 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:22.680 lines. So you see they're all just 2 now with 00:06:24.780 --> 00:06:25.280 the ellipses and then we can expand them. 00:06:28.260 --> 00:06:28.760 So a lot of power there just with path names. 00:06:30.780 --> 00:06:31.120 Let's continue to number 8. 00:06:32.440 --> 00:06:32.940 [Speaker 0]: Can I just interrupt you just a bit? 00:06:33.420 --> 00:06:33.920 [Speaker 1]: Yes. 00:06:37.540 --> 00:06:37.720 [Speaker 0]: I think your phone, so we have your phone set 00:06:39.960 --> 00:06:40.460 up in case your internet misbehaves and we've 00:06:41.580 --> 00:06:42.080 set this up before we started, 00:06:44.060 --> 00:06:44.380 but I think the vibration is a little loud 00:06:46.060 --> 00:06:46.160 whenever it does. Can you maybe move it a 00:06:50.020 --> 00:06:50.380 little bit? I think so. 00:06:51.380 --> 00:06:51.880 It will have to vibrate again. 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:54.220 [Speaker 1]: Is that okay? No, my phone... 00:06:56.380 --> 00:06:56.880 Okay. It shouldn't have been vibrating. 00:07:00.760 --> 00:07:01.260 [Speaker 0]: It might have been another device, 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:02.800 but definitely we had vibration. 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:04.500 Anyway, carry on. Sorry for the interruption. 00:07:06.420 --> 00:07:06.920 [Speaker 1]: It could be me. So number 8, 00:07:10.320 --> 00:07:10.520 special prefixes. There are 3 prefixes you 00:07:11.440 --> 00:07:11.820 can attach to path names. 00:07:13.180 --> 00:07:13.680 The first, if you want to load, 00:07:15.540 --> 00:07:16.040 instead of just finding a file, 00:07:18.960 --> 00:07:19.460 an ELIST file, you can actually load it. 00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:22.060 And so I can just hit made a return on this, 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:24.300 and you see in the mini buffer, 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:27.100 it loaded it as compiled e-list. 00:07:28.840 --> 00:07:29.340 I could put a .el on here, 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:33.500 a .elc, .gz, all of that'll work, 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:36.420 and just put a dash in front to load it. 00:07:38.300 --> 00:07:38.720 If you want to run a shell command, 00:07:40.900 --> 00:07:41.040 just put an exclamation mark in front of 00:07:42.380 --> 00:07:42.540 something and again you can have the 00:07:44.340 --> 00:07:44.620 environment variable. So here we're saying 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:47.220 run the program date and you see, 00:07:49.540 --> 00:07:50.040 let's see, let's do it again. 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:53.240 There we go. It ran date and you see the 00:07:55.320 --> 00:07:55.680 output right there. And what if you want to 00:07:57.540 --> 00:07:58.040 run a graphical program on your system? 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:01.760 Well here, we want to open a PDF file and I'm 00:08:04.840 --> 00:08:05.340 just using XDG Open on Linux, 00:08:09.320 --> 00:08:09.440 you could use Open on Mac and you just put an 00:08:12.340 --> 00:08:12.840 ampersand in front and there's the Hyperbole 00:08:15.340 --> 00:08:15.840 manual instantly displayed. 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:18.620 So lots of power there and all of that 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:22.360 actually .pdf's and many other file types are 00:08:24.860 --> 00:08:25.080 automatically linked to various programs by 00:08:27.080 --> 00:08:27.340 Hyperbole. So you could just use the path 00:08:29.200 --> 00:08:29.340 name itself and it would probably behave the 00:08:33.940 --> 00:08:34.440 same way. Number 7, bookmarks on steroids. 00:08:37.059 --> 00:08:37.419 So Hyperbole gives you a personal button 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:40.340 file, which is on the menu you see here under 00:08:41.780 --> 00:08:42.280 button files, and then personal. 00:08:44.860 --> 00:08:45.360 So here we'll just display it. 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:47.720 And you can put whatever you want in here, 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:49.860 these implicit buttons of any type. 00:08:52.460 --> 00:08:52.660 You can name them the way here and you can 00:08:55.280 --> 00:08:55.560 activate either the name with MetaReturn or 00:08:56.760 --> 00:08:56.920 the button itself. So, 00:08:58.900 --> 00:08:59.400 of course, if we did MetaReturn here, 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:03.220 we'd just display that in a web browser. 00:09:05.020 --> 00:09:05.520 I'll just do a few of these. 00:09:06.760 --> 00:09:07.200 So here's a section of line. 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:08.580 Let's just jump there. 00:09:11.100 --> 00:09:11.400 But these can be all sorts of different 00:09:12.900 --> 00:09:13.140 actions that are going on. 00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:16.040 And you just, whatever cross references you 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:17.840 want, you put in here. 00:09:19.900 --> 00:09:20.400 And the neat thing is that this then becomes 00:09:22.920 --> 00:09:23.420 a list of what we call global buttons. 00:09:26.040 --> 00:09:26.540 So when I go into the menu and I go control 00:09:30.140 --> 00:09:30.640 HHGA to activate a global button, 00:09:32.800 --> 00:09:33.220 you can see that all the names from this file 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:36.100 appear here. So only the name buttons appear, 00:09:39.780 --> 00:09:40.240 and I could like go to the hyperbole to-do 00:09:41.760 --> 00:09:42.260 list and things like that. 00:09:45.480 --> 00:09:45.660 So very, very quick access to all your 00:09:47.080 --> 00:09:47.440 information whenever you need it. 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:49.600 And that could be an org file as well if you 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:53.500 prefer that. So we just took care of that. 00:09:56.880 --> 00:09:57.000 Number 6, instant test case running and 00:09:58.920 --> 00:09:59.420 debugging. This is a fairly new feature. 00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:02.240 What we're seeing here is a pre-release of 00:10:04.280 --> 00:10:04.440 version 9, which should be out within the 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:07.560 next week. But the instructions at the 00:10:10.460 --> 00:10:10.680 beginning of the presentation tell you how to 00:10:13.220 --> 00:10:13.720 get the development version of HyperBlade, 00:10:15.060 --> 00:10:15.560 which is right now 8.01 00:10:18.540 --> 00:10:19.040 pre, but that's virtually the same as what 9 00:10:22.560 --> 00:10:23.060 will be. So you can grab that as of today. 00:10:27.040 --> 00:10:27.540 So let's just jump to a test file. 00:10:29.800 --> 00:10:30.300 What you see here is called an explicit 00:10:32.520 --> 00:10:33.020 button. You can actually make buttons where 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:35.820 similar to org, where you just see a bit of 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:38.500 the button and all of the metadata is hidden. 00:10:41.800 --> 00:10:42.040 I can say control A J and I see all about 00:10:43.740 --> 00:10:43.940 that button, exactly what it's going to do 00:10:46.980 --> 00:10:47.200 before I activate it and even who created it 00:10:50.580 --> 00:10:50.680 or last modified it. Then just queue out of 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:52.580 here and you're back where you were. 00:10:56.320 --> 00:10:56.820 So now, what this did is link us to an ERT 00:10:59.440 --> 00:10:59.920 test. If you write tests in Emacs, 00:11:01.560 --> 00:11:02.060 you probably use ERT tests. 00:11:04.920 --> 00:11:05.220 So if I hit made a return on here it'll just 00:11:08.300 --> 00:11:08.520 run the test tell me it passed great okay but 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:11.760 maybe I had a problem so let me use control 00:11:16.820 --> 00:11:17.080 you made a return and that will e-debug the 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:20.080 test instantly. So now I'll step through it 00:11:21.700 --> 00:11:22.200 and it says, well, let's, 00:11:25.400 --> 00:11:25.580 this single line actually creates that 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:27.800 explicit button. You see we have an empty 00:11:29.060 --> 00:11:29.480 buffer here that we're in. 00:11:31.640 --> 00:11:31.780 Now I step through that and now there's the 00:11:33.740 --> 00:11:34.160 explicit button that got put in there. 00:11:36.760 --> 00:11:36.940 Now the next line I step through it and this 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:39.160 is going to check if we have the right action 00:11:42.040 --> 00:11:42.260 type and it returns true so that's good and 00:11:45.060 --> 00:11:45.220 now we should be it should be associated with 00:11:48.400 --> 00:11:48.680 the temp buffer returns true good And that's 00:11:50.860 --> 00:11:51.360 why what you saw before is this passed. 00:11:52.260 --> 00:11:52.760 The whole thing passed. 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:54.740 So lots of power there. 00:11:57.380 --> 00:11:57.600 Simple to use. You're just using your made a 00:11:58.860 --> 00:11:59.360 return and prefix arguments. 00:12:02.980 --> 00:12:03.240 It's something everybody who develops should 00:12:07.280 --> 00:12:07.640 have. So number, let's go on. 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:09.720 I think we're making pretty good time here, 00:12:10.740 --> 00:12:11.240 but I turned off my timer. 00:12:15.540 --> 00:12:15.800 Let's go to number 5. This is a very new 00:12:17.160 --> 00:12:17.660 feature, which is very cool too. 00:12:19.920 --> 00:12:20.420 You used to have to use the mouse probably 00:12:23.680 --> 00:12:23.880 and you could drag across windows to go from 00:12:26.580 --> 00:12:26.820 a source to a referent buffer and that would 00:12:27.880 --> 00:12:28.340 create a hyperlink for you. 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:30.880 But now we've installed it and made it even 00:12:33.640 --> 00:12:34.140 easier on, we've installed it on a, 00:12:36.040 --> 00:12:36.540 on the hyperbole menus. 00:12:39.680 --> 00:12:40.180 So let's just go back to our presentation 00:12:43.340 --> 00:12:43.660 here and say we want to link to this line 00:12:45.980 --> 00:12:46.160 that we're on there. And I'll just create the 00:12:48.340 --> 00:12:48.480 button in our scratch buffer here so it 00:12:50.160 --> 00:12:50.660 doesn't really mess anything up. 00:12:53.800 --> 00:12:53.980 So I just put my point in where I want the 00:12:56.780 --> 00:12:56.920 button to appear and then I put point where I 00:12:59.700 --> 00:13:00.060 want it to link to in the other the other 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:02.800 buffer and then I just say control HH to get 00:13:04.760 --> 00:13:05.260 my menu, I for implicit button, 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:07.940 and then L for link. Boom, 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:09.980 it inserts it, right at point. 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:12.880 What did it do? It knew that this was in the 00:13:14.900 --> 00:13:15.080 hyperbole directory and I have a variable for 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:17.780 that, so that if you sent this link to your 00:13:18.680 --> 00:13:19.180 friend who uses Hyperbole, 00:13:21.300 --> 00:13:21.440 it would still work right because they have a 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:22.860 different hyperbole there. 00:13:26.880 --> 00:13:27.380 And then I want to go directly to line 116. 00:13:29.860 --> 00:13:30.360 So boom, it just took me there. 00:13:33.680 --> 00:13:33.900 So that's it. And Hyperbole is doing all this 00:13:36.220 --> 00:13:36.420 for you. You just say I want a link to this 00:13:38.760 --> 00:13:38.940 thing and it figures out what's at point and 00:13:41.920 --> 00:13:42.240 it determines the right type of implicit link 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:45.520 to put there. And that's the whole point is 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:47.320 that you're just working like when you're 00:13:50.280 --> 00:13:50.500 programming or you're writing an article and 00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:53.520 you just hit made a return or or pull up a 00:13:57.040 --> 00:13:57.200 menu and hit a key binding and you're off to 00:14:02.220 --> 00:14:02.400 the races. So that was implicit linking We 00:14:04.760 --> 00:14:05.260 can also create those explicit link buttons, 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:07.760 and as well as the global link, 00:14:09.140 --> 00:14:09.580 where we would just give it a name, 00:14:11.380 --> 00:14:11.640 and it would automatically put it in our 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:14.640 global button file without us even having 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:18.380 that on screen. So lots of power there as 00:14:19.160 --> 00:14:19.660 well, lots of consistency. 00:14:24.860 --> 00:14:25.040 Now let's take a look at the K Outliner a 00:14:27.780 --> 00:14:28.040 little more. I'm just going to show you 1 00:14:29.620 --> 00:14:29.820 feature actually. I don't have time to show 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:31.580 you the K Outliner in detail, 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:34.220 but it's a really cool structured outliner 00:14:35.900 --> 00:14:36.400 that even if you love Org Mode, 00:14:39.060 --> 00:14:39.280 you should try it. And this is 1 thing that 00:14:40.560 --> 00:14:41.060 you can't get with Org Mode, 00:14:44.620 --> 00:14:45.100 is let's say Hyperlink comes with an example 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:48.580 file which teaches you about the K Outliner. 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:50.940 So we'll just use that right here. 00:14:52.540 --> 00:14:53.040 And when you're in the K Outliner, 00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:55.820 you can bring up and go into the K Outliner 00:14:57.040 --> 00:14:57.540 menu right here at the bottom. 00:14:59.920 --> 00:15:00.360 And there's a format menu there. 00:15:02.220 --> 00:15:02.600 You always take the first letter of a menu, 00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:05.100 the first capital letter of a menu item. 00:15:08.540 --> 00:15:08.720 So F for format and then D for display in 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:11.700 browser. So just let's do it. 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:17.220 We have with 1 button or 1 key we've produced 00:15:23.160 --> 00:15:23.660 the entire outline in a collapsible outline 00:15:25.760 --> 00:15:26.260 in HTML. So I can go here. 00:15:28.740 --> 00:15:29.240 I just have to use my mouse. 00:15:32.800 --> 00:15:33.300 So I can expand and collapse these trees live 00:15:39.020 --> 00:15:39.520 with very basic coding. 00:15:42.180 --> 00:15:42.680 We tried to keep this as simple as possible. 00:15:45.420 --> 00:15:45.580 But you see it maintains the structure of the 00:15:47.380 --> 00:15:47.880 outline and even tables. 00:15:57.320 --> 00:15:57.620 So all the formatting is maintained and again 00:15:59.960 --> 00:16:00.100 it's instant. Or you can just export it to a 00:16:01.420 --> 00:16:01.920 file without displaying it. 00:16:05.380 --> 00:16:05.880 Very efficient kinds of operations. 00:16:10.760 --> 00:16:10.960 So that was number 4. Number 3 is a 00:16:12.900 --> 00:16:13.400 subsystem, another subsystem in Hyperbole 00:16:15.920 --> 00:16:16.080 called Hycontrol, which is for window and 00:16:18.340 --> 00:16:18.600 frame management. And I just wanted to show 00:16:20.760 --> 00:16:20.920 you 1 thing in there. It's got a lot of 00:16:23.920 --> 00:16:24.420 capabilities. But I always had the problem 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:28.340 that Emacs wouldn't let me scale my fonts, 00:16:30.280 --> 00:16:30.780 all of my faces at the same time. 00:16:33.220 --> 00:16:33.680 I wanted to zoom. I didn't want to increase 00:16:36.020 --> 00:16:36.260 the default font size and all the others stay 00:16:40.160 --> 00:16:40.660 the same. So let's just display our faces 00:16:45.040 --> 00:16:45.200 right here and then we have a choice of 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:47.860 either controlling frames or windows. 00:16:49.740 --> 00:16:50.240 So let's start by controlling frames. 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:52.760 So you get another submenu when you're in 00:16:55.520 --> 00:16:56.020 high control to tell you what to do here. 00:16:59.280 --> 00:16:59.480 And there's just lowercase z and uppercase z. 00:17:02.980 --> 00:17:03.400 So let's try it. So it's scaling the entire 00:17:05.520 --> 00:17:06.020 frame. And you can see from the list of faces 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:08.500 that they're all scaling at the same time. 00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:10.220 And I can go back down. 00:17:13.280 --> 00:17:13.619 Now if I switch to window mode, 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:16.099 and there's a special fast way to do that, 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:18.819 just hit T to toggle. And if you look at the 00:17:21.619 --> 00:17:21.819 bottom menu it says frames right now now it 00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:25.599 says windows when I hit T so now if I do the 00:17:30.540 --> 00:17:30.640 same Z to increase it's just this window and 00:17:36.300 --> 00:17:36.800 but it's you know it's the faces in there so 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:40.680 a lot of power again but I just haven't found 00:17:43.080 --> 00:17:43.220 anywhere else that you can get that kind of 00:17:45.320 --> 00:17:45.820 control over your faces very rapidly. 00:17:51.140 --> 00:17:51.640 So that's number 3. Now number 2, 00:17:56.280 --> 00:17:56.780 let's put that in there. 00:18:02.980 --> 00:18:03.320 So the HiROLO is the final subsystem in 00:18:05.740 --> 00:18:06.240 Hyperbole and this has gotten much cooler. 00:18:08.180 --> 00:18:08.680 So it started off as a contact management 00:18:11.040 --> 00:18:11.540 system, but it's really just a hierarchical 00:18:14.800 --> 00:18:15.060 record management system that lets you have 00:18:17.520 --> 00:18:18.020 as many files, directories as you want, 00:18:19.860 --> 00:18:20.280 and you can search across all of them without 00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:23.240 any external utilities necessary, 00:18:25.740 --> 00:18:26.240 just what's built into Emacs and Hyperlink. 00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:29.920 So as you can see, we've expanded it to 00:18:31.320 --> 00:18:31.820 handle org files, markdown, 00:18:34.120 --> 00:18:34.620 K outlines, Emacs outlines. 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:36.820 So what I'm going to do is just say, 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:40.680 I want to search using my Hyberlo file list. 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:43.140 You just set that to what you wanted to 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:44.820 search. But now you have all this 00:18:46.020 --> 00:18:46.520 flexibility. You can use environment 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:48.840 variables in it. You can just specify a 00:18:50.860 --> 00:18:51.340 directory and it will find all those matching 00:18:53.100 --> 00:18:53.600 files below that directory recursively. 00:18:58.260 --> 00:18:58.460 You can give it the markdown file here and 00:19:00.840 --> 00:19:01.160 you can use file wildcards as well. 00:19:04.020 --> 00:19:04.360 I mean, look at this. It's got a list 00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:06.140 variable in it and a wildcard, 00:19:09.360 --> 00:19:09.840 and it's just all I'm gonna do is I change 00:19:13.260 --> 00:19:13.380 this from a Lisp expression to make it a 00:19:15.040 --> 00:19:15.380 hyper button. You just change the outer 00:19:16.420 --> 00:19:16.920 parens to angle brackets, 00:19:19.120 --> 00:19:19.620 and then it's automatically an implicit 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:22.840 button that you can activate with made a 00:19:25.840 --> 00:19:26.340 return so just ran that and now I've set my 00:19:29.220 --> 00:19:29.480 file list so now let's do a search it would 00:19:34.080 --> 00:19:34.580 be ctrl H H roll it X R and then S for search 00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:36.680 But I'll just do it this way. 00:19:39.820 --> 00:19:40.320 And boom, it found everything that fast. 00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:42.940 And I can just get like, 00:19:45.140 --> 00:19:45.520 show the top items in there. 00:19:47.760 --> 00:19:48.260 So I kind of have outlining in this buffer. 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:51.940 I can just move to each match that I hit. 00:19:53.480 --> 00:19:53.680 And notice, although everything was 00:19:55.080 --> 00:19:55.580 collapsed, it's expanding here. 00:19:58.100 --> 00:19:58.520 When I move in and out of each of the entry 00:20:02.220 --> 00:20:02.400 matches, it expands or collapses as I move to 00:20:05.740 --> 00:20:06.240 the next 1. So a lot of power there. 00:20:09.120 --> 00:20:09.620 What else? Just tabbing through these things. 00:20:11.840 --> 00:20:12.120 And you notice that it's working across all 00:20:12.840 --> 00:20:13.340 of these different types. 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:16.220 And it's telling you which file everything 00:20:17.540 --> 00:20:17.840 came from right up here. 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:19.940 So I could just made a return here, 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:23.500 should work. Yes, revisit the file normally. 00:20:25.260 --> 00:20:25.760 And it just pulls it right up. 00:20:27.900 --> 00:20:28.400 So everything is live and hyperbole. 00:20:29.620 --> 00:20:30.120 You've got hyperlinks everywhere. 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:33.740 Let's just get rid of that. 00:20:41.420 --> 00:20:41.600 Go back to our demo. So if you are fans of 00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:46.560 Vertico and Consult, you can now use that 00:20:49.120 --> 00:20:49.300 with the High Rollo. So all you have to do is 00:20:50.940 --> 00:20:51.440 let's just format our windows, 00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:55.720 and then I'll say, let's use ConsultGrep over 00:20:58.380 --> 00:20:58.880 the Rolodex. Now, it found all the matches 00:21:01.560 --> 00:21:02.060 there, and I can just move live through them 00:21:04.540 --> 00:21:04.640 in the buffer like you may be used to or I 00:21:08.100 --> 00:21:08.600 can filter back down and say using orderless 00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:13.700 joystick or anything that has joy in it just 00:21:16.940 --> 00:21:17.160 match to those lines and then I can you know 00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:20.020 either jump there or quit out of here. 00:21:21.580 --> 00:21:22.080 I'll just quit out of it right now. 00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:25.240 So very cool. And all of that is using 00:21:28.380 --> 00:21:28.640 whatever you personally set as the set of 00:21:30.060 --> 00:21:30.560 files and directories you want to search. 00:21:35.740 --> 00:21:35.940 And finally, our number 1 feature of 00:21:40.120 --> 00:21:40.400 Hyperbole is you can customize this to give 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:43.460 you these kinds of implicit buttons, 00:21:45.580 --> 00:21:46.080 whatever kind you want. 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:49.140 And there are 3 levels of doing this. 00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:51.140 The first is for non-programmers. 00:21:53.180 --> 00:21:53.680 You can just set a string, 00:21:56.540 --> 00:21:57.040 like a URL with a parameter in it. 00:21:58.940 --> 00:21:59.440 So the %s represents the parameter, 00:22:01.240 --> 00:22:01.440 and This is how you do a search on 00:22:03.560 --> 00:22:04.060 DuckDuckGo. So all I have to do is evaluate 00:22:06.660 --> 00:22:07.160 this defal for action link. 00:22:10.520 --> 00:22:11.020 And now I have a new implicit button type 00:22:12.900 --> 00:22:13.400 that I can put between angle brackets. 00:22:15.080 --> 00:22:15.580 And I just give it that name, 00:22:17.500 --> 00:22:18.000 ddg, and some parameter, 00:22:19.540 --> 00:22:20.040 whatever I want to search for, 00:22:22.540 --> 00:22:23.040 and this is a button that does that search. 00:22:28.320 --> 00:22:28.700 Very cool, right? So you can embed these. 00:22:30.540 --> 00:22:31.040 This could be a hyperlink in, 00:22:34.620 --> 00:22:35.120 you know, a comment in a programming file. 00:22:38.040 --> 00:22:38.160 Anything on the entire web that you want to 00:22:41.820 --> 00:22:42.320 link to, whatever kind of compact notation 00:22:44.600 --> 00:22:44.800 you want to give it. So that's what we're 00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:47.140 going to learn as we get more advanced here 00:22:48.900 --> 00:22:49.400 you can give it even more compact notations. 00:22:51.940 --> 00:22:52.420 So as you get more advanced you can say, 00:22:53.760 --> 00:22:54.240 well I don't like this angle bracket, 00:22:56.520 --> 00:22:57.020 I want to have an implicit button that uses 00:22:59.340 --> 00:22:59.620 these square brackets and then an angle 00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:02.080 bracket inside it. So then you need the 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:05.180 defile for implicit link. 00:23:08.600 --> 00:23:08.860 This lets you specify your start and end 00:23:11.980 --> 00:23:12.180 delimiters for your new type and and then you 00:23:14.340 --> 00:23:14.840 can give it a function that you wanted to run 00:23:18.120 --> 00:23:18.320 and that will take the text of whatever is in 00:23:19.280 --> 00:23:19.780 the button, in this case, 00:23:23.560 --> 00:23:23.760 test release here, and feed it to the 00:23:25.580 --> 00:23:26.060 function that I gave here. 00:23:29.100 --> 00:23:29.540 So what this function does is grep over my 00:23:33.260 --> 00:23:33.420 git log and find any commits that include the 00:23:34.940 --> 00:23:35.360 term test release in it. 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:38.200 So let's try it. First I have to add the 00:23:41.540 --> 00:23:41.740 button type and that's all it takes and it 00:23:44.620 --> 00:23:44.800 defined it now. So anywhere in Emacs now I 00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:46.940 can use this button type essentially. 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:48.980 So let me try to activate it. 00:23:52.260 --> 00:23:52.760 Okay and it says yeah let's save it. 00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:55.940 Okay so now it's running a git log command. 00:23:59.240 --> 00:23:59.440 It found all the commits and now of course if 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:02.980 I had made a return on this commit it 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:05.500 recognizes it as an implicit link, 00:24:08.800 --> 00:24:09.300 and if I search for what was a test release, 00:24:11.760 --> 00:24:11.960 there it is. So this commit had that in 00:24:13.740 --> 00:24:14.180 there. So all these matches, 00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:16.280 so I don't know how other people do this, 00:24:19.540 --> 00:24:20.040 but for me this makes it a lot simpler. 00:24:24.600 --> 00:24:24.800 So a lot of power that any programmer can 00:24:27.100 --> 00:24:27.520 use. And finally, if you've mastered Emacs 00:24:28.860 --> 00:24:29.360 Lisp, or you're starting to, 00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:33.740 you can look in the hib types file in 00:24:36.820 --> 00:24:37.320 Hyperbole and see all sorts of uses of defib, 00:24:38.940 --> 00:24:39.440 which is defined implicit button. 00:24:42.500 --> 00:24:42.660 And that's the full power of e-LISP when you 00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:45.060 want to define 1. So what we're going to do 00:24:46.280 --> 00:24:46.780 here is I wanted to know, 00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:49.660 given a date, what the day of the week is. 00:24:52.660 --> 00:24:53.040 And because the date primitives weren't quite 00:24:54.140 --> 00:24:54.640 written the way I might like, 00:24:57.040 --> 00:24:57.500 it's a little longer than some. 00:24:59.860 --> 00:25:00.360 But I'm just going to evaluate this list. 00:25:05.600 --> 00:25:06.100 And I've now defined DOW as an action type. 00:25:08.220 --> 00:25:08.520 Now, how do I know I'm doing that? 00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:10.700 So I can always say Control-H, 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:13.580 capital A here to see what a button's going 00:25:15.360 --> 00:25:15.860 to do. And it tells me When I'm there, 00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:18.140 I'm at a hyperbole button, 00:25:22.940 --> 00:25:23.440 and the type is from category DOW. 00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:25.120 And what's it gonna do? 00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:27.420 It takes a mark, it's gonna do a message 00:25:29.380 --> 00:25:29.880 action. Okay, so let's try it. 00:25:32.320 --> 00:25:32.780 It tells me that's a date, 00:25:33.840 --> 00:25:34.220 and it falls on a Sunday, 00:25:35.320 --> 00:25:35.820 which is today. That's correct. 00:25:38.520 --> 00:25:39.020 So 2 days from today is a Tuesday. 00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:43.460 Beautiful. So we've just totally transformed 00:25:46.340 --> 00:25:46.840 what we can do with text. 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:48.900 You notice there's no markup here. 00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:53.440 And this is working with all of the other 00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:55.600 implicit types that we have everywhere in 00:25:57.720 --> 00:25:57.920 Emacs. It's only going to match to this kind 00:26:00.060 --> 00:26:00.560 of pattern and anywhere else, 00:26:02.320 --> 00:26:02.820 you know, it just won't trigger that type. 00:26:06.180 --> 00:26:06.440 So lots of power. You just need to get 00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:07.700 started with Hyperbole. 00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:10.880 There's great documentation both inside the 00:26:13.820 --> 00:26:14.060 code in the manual. There's a fast demo that 00:26:16.620 --> 00:26:16.880 you can start with and there's about 10 00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:19.500 different videos. There'll be 3 presentations 00:26:21.940 --> 00:26:22.440 on hyperbole here at the conference, 00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:26.500 and I hope you've enjoyed this presentation. 00:26:29.740 --> 00:26:30.040 I'd love to answer your questions and get 00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:31.700 some new users for Hyperbole. 00:26:35.820 --> 00:26:36.020 So lastly, I'd like to thank my 00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:38.040 co-maintainer, Matt, who's going to speak 00:26:41.820 --> 00:26:42.040 later about the extensive test protocols we 00:26:45.420 --> 00:26:45.920 have in Hyperbole. Hyperbole works on every 00:26:47.360 --> 00:26:47.860 version of Emacs from 27.1 00:26:52.180 --> 00:26:52.600 up, and every operating system and Windows 00:26:55.960 --> 00:26:56.120 system that you use. And thanks so much to 00:26:58.140 --> 00:26:58.640 the volunteers and the speakers at EmacsConf. 00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:02.000 You do a great job, and we're all really 00:27:04.200 --> 00:27:04.400 appreciative that you take all the time that 00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:06.220 you do to make this happen. 00:27:07.120 --> 00:27:07.620 Thank you very much. 00:27:10.900 --> 00:27:11.400 [Speaker 0]: And thank you so much Bob. 00:27:14.540 --> 00:27:14.680 So I'll let you do the gymnastics to join us 00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:16.420 back on BBB and put your webcam. 00:27:18.340 --> 00:27:18.840 In the meantime, I'll invite people, 00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:20.740 as Sasha told you in the introduction, 00:27:23.300 --> 00:27:23.600 to go put your question in the pad. 00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:25.880 The link is on the talks page and also on 00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:28.220 IRC. So take your time. 00:27:29.700 --> 00:27:29.900 We've already got some people who've asked 00:27:32.860 --> 00:27:33.060 questions. You can also start joining the 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:35.140 room. Let me just ping Sasha. 00:27:37.940 --> 00:27:38.440 Ping to open ID HyperAmp. 00:27:40.920 --> 00:27:41.120 So, you'll be able to join us on 00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:43.260 BigBlueButton as well to go chat with Bob 00:27:44.900 --> 00:27:45.040 more directly. I'm not sure if people have 00:27:45.980 --> 00:27:46.480 joined already. Not yet. 00:27:50.920 --> 00:27:51.060 So, Bob, what I'll do, 00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:52.280 we already have 4 questions. 00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:54.080 I'm gonna read them to you and you can take 00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:54.900 your time answering them, 00:27:57.180 --> 00:27:57.340 but we do have about 7 minutes until we go to 00:27:58.940 --> 00:27:59.120 the next talk, so we need to be a little bit 00:28:00.420 --> 00:28:00.920 [Speaker 1]: Okay. 00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:03.240 [Speaker 0]: chop-chop. All right, so reading the first 00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:05.460 questions, and I'm also going to display them 00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:06.900 for the stream to see, 00:28:09.600 --> 00:28:09.760 do buttons keep their metadata within the 00:28:12.100 --> 00:28:12.380 same file? E.g., would I see it if I change 00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:13.940 to fundamental mode, for instance? 00:28:19.060 --> 00:28:19.340 [Speaker 1]: So all of the things that I was showing you, 00:28:20.800 --> 00:28:21.300 implicit buttons have no metadata. 00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:23.800 That's the great thing about them, 00:28:27.140 --> 00:28:27.400 is you just type them in the buffer and what 00:28:29.800 --> 00:28:30.020 you see is all there is to that button and 00:28:32.800 --> 00:28:33.300 hyperbole generates all the smarts associated 00:28:35.280 --> 00:28:35.780 with them. When you create an explicit 00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:38.660 button, which I showed you 1 or 2 examples 00:28:42.520 --> 00:28:42.720 of, that metadata is, there is metadata with 00:28:45.420 --> 00:28:45.860 that, and that is stored in a separate file 00:28:47.360 --> 00:28:47.860 in the same directory called .hypb. 00:28:51.300 --> 00:28:51.500 So it's hidden away and it doesn't affect the 00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:53.700 format of the buffer that it's in. 00:28:56.040 --> 00:28:56.540 So again, what you see is what you get. 00:28:58.520 --> 00:28:58.740 You just see the delimiters around the 00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:01.140 explicit button and that's it. 00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:04.500 So Hyperbole takes care of all that for you. 00:29:08.080 --> 00:29:08.360 However, if you embed them into a mail 00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:09.480 message, which you can, 00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:12.180 you can mail buttons, then there is a hidden 00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:14.700 area at the end of the mail message that 00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:17.120 encodes the metadata for the explicit 00:29:17.120 --> 00:29:17.620 buttons. 00:29:21.140 --> 00:29:21.640 [Speaker 0]: Ok, great. Next question. 00:29:24.060 --> 00:29:24.560 Is it possible to link to a file by its ID, 00:29:26.980 --> 00:29:27.340 like the node, org ID or some similar unique 00:29:27.620 --> 00:29:28.120 string inside? 00:29:32.120 --> 00:29:32.620 [Speaker 1]: Yes, In fact, that's 1 of the new features in 00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:37.840 9. You just made a return on an ID and it 00:29:40.280 --> 00:29:40.780 takes you right to the org node, 00:29:44.760 --> 00:29:44.900 works with org Rome and org straight out of 00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:47.900 the box. We're looking at ways to make it 00:29:49.640 --> 00:29:50.040 easier to just insert those in places, 00:29:52.580 --> 00:29:52.800 but since you have word keys that do that 00:29:55.320 --> 00:29:55.600 already, you can just insert them in any 00:29:58.180 --> 00:29:58.420 documents and Hyperbole will recognize them. 00:30:02.080 --> 00:30:02.580 I think In some cases you may need to put id 00:30:04.900 --> 00:30:05.400 colon in front of the id as well. 00:30:06.420 --> 00:30:06.920 Generally it works. 00:30:11.060 --> 00:30:11.560 [Speaker 0]: Ok, great. Moving on to the next question. 00:30:13.260 --> 00:30:13.760 Regarding the frames example, 00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:16.320 any thoughts or considerations for a 00:30:18.760 --> 00:30:19.020 transient interface or is this something 1 00:30:22.120 --> 00:30:22.280 could already toggle? Are you familiar with 00:30:22.660 --> 00:30:23.160 transient interface? 00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:26.700 [Speaker 1]: Yes, we don't use transient because we, 00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:30.140 you know, Hyperbole started out in 1991, 00:30:34.020 --> 00:30:34.280 though it's had much much work since then so 00:30:37.740 --> 00:30:37.940 we predate a lot of newer things in Emacs and 00:30:41.040 --> 00:30:41.400 then we just use them as as they Become 00:30:45.180 --> 00:30:45.480 useful too hyperbole We think the the mini 00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:46.720 buffer menu is pretty good. 00:30:48.280 --> 00:30:48.780 We could rewrite stuff in transient, 00:30:51.100 --> 00:30:51.600 but we haven't seen the need yet. 00:30:54.760 --> 00:30:54.960 Maybe high control, that might be a good 00:30:58.260 --> 00:30:58.480 candidate, because there are so many keys in 00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:00.440 it. So we'll think about that. 00:31:02.560 --> 00:31:03.060 But it would be a while before we got to it. 00:31:06.840 --> 00:31:07.060 [Speaker 0]: Moving on to the next question, 00:31:08.620 --> 00:31:08.800 sorry I got really confused because there's a 00:31:10.760 --> 00:31:11.260 French salut in the text. 00:31:13.100 --> 00:31:13.600 Is someone saying hi to me or something? 00:31:14.600 --> 00:31:15.100 All right, next question. 00:31:16.920 --> 00:31:17.420 Regarding multi-file search functionality, 00:31:22.260 --> 00:31:22.740 why not implement it within the existing 00:31:25.280 --> 00:31:25.680 framework of MetaX grep or similar built-in 00:31:28.020 --> 00:31:28.260 commands? Yet another search interface sounds 00:31:28.620 --> 00:31:29.120 a bit redundant. 00:31:33.660 --> 00:31:33.900 [Speaker 1]: Multi-file search, so High Rollo I guess 00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:35.940 you're talking about. I think what you missed 00:31:38.940 --> 00:31:39.440 there is that High Rollo matches to records, 00:31:42.620 --> 00:31:42.880 multi-line records, so it's not a 00:31:44.860 --> 00:31:45.360 line-oriented match, it's a record-oriented 00:31:50.520 --> 00:31:50.760 match. So Grep, you can say maybe give me 3 00:31:52.800 --> 00:31:53.000 lines of context, but what if I have a 00:31:55.860 --> 00:31:56.100 20-line record? I want to see the whole 00:31:58.580 --> 00:31:59.060 thing. And so, it's a full-text search 00:32:02.980 --> 00:32:03.480 interface, which lets you have any size 00:32:06.760 --> 00:32:07.260 entries or nodes in the match buffer. 00:32:10.520 --> 00:32:10.760 So that's 1 reason. MADAX grep works with 00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:12.880 hyperbole. I mean, you just use it if you 00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:15.580 want and then you can hit MADA return on grep 00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:19.640 lines. So we basically take everything from 00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:24.400 POSIX and everything in Emacs and we try to 00:32:26.200 --> 00:32:26.680 make a lot of it simpler to use. 00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:28.940 We don't take away any of the functionality, 00:32:30.540 --> 00:32:31.040 we just augment it. 00:32:35.020 --> 00:32:35.220 [Speaker 0]: Right, and I think that's the logic for a lot 00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:37.200 of the packages you know the philosophy is 00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:39.220 just you create your little bit your little 00:32:41.180 --> 00:32:41.420 island where you do your stuff and if you can 00:32:42.800 --> 00:32:42.940 resonate with other islands so much the 00:32:44.860 --> 00:32:45.080 better and it feels like between those 00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:47.900 islands you know hyperbole is a great way to 00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:49.980 connect things that are just text. 00:32:51.380 --> 00:32:51.880 So it's always been a lovely philosophy. 00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:53.620 There's always been a lovely philosophy 00:32:53.860 --> 00:32:54.360 behind it. 00:32:58.020 --> 00:32:58.200 [Speaker 1]: 1 other point I'd make there is that the 00:33:01.060 --> 00:33:01.480 Hyrolo also contains logical search 00:33:04.740 --> 00:33:04.940 operators. So when I typed in that string you 00:33:06.900 --> 00:33:07.360 could just as well type with like Lisp 00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:09.140 expressions, semi Lisp expressions. 00:33:12.980 --> 00:33:13.480 You can say open paren and word 1, 00:33:16.800 --> 00:33:17.280 word 2, close paren. You know you can have or 00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:22.360 and XOR and not and it'll do the search and 00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:24.220 just retrieve the entries, 00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:27.600 again, multi-line entries that match all of 00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:29.700 the criteria that you specified there. 00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:31.120 So that's fairly unique, 00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:33.320 I think. So you basically got a full text 00:33:35.340 --> 00:33:35.840 search platform with logical operators, 00:33:38.080 --> 00:33:38.580 instantly, you know, fast moving, 00:33:42.280 --> 00:33:42.720 rapid keys that you can control everything 00:33:44.920 --> 00:33:45.280 with and it's all integrated into this larger 00:33:45.280 --> 00:33:45.780 framework. 00:33:48.800 --> 00:33:49.060 [Speaker 0]: Okay, great. Well, Bob, 00:33:50.020 --> 00:33:50.520 you have 2 more questions, 00:33:53.600 --> 00:33:53.740 but there's a big 1 about what inspired you 00:33:56.120 --> 00:33:56.440 to write it back. It's being hyperbole around 00:33:56.980 --> 00:33:57.360 the time of its birth, 00:33:59.180 --> 00:33:59.680 but sadly, we only have about 1 more minute. 00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:01.320 So what I'm going to ask you to do, 00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:02.720 feel free to answer the question. 00:34:05.020 --> 00:34:05.140 If you go on BBB, I've pasted the link to the 00:34:06.820 --> 00:34:06.960 other pad, I think you can see it on your 00:34:10.520 --> 00:34:11.020 [Speaker 1]: I have the ether pad up. 00:34:12.560 --> 00:34:13.060 [Speaker 0]: computer as well. So what are we going to do? 00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:16.880 Sorry, I'm just a little bit pressed by time 00:34:18.280 --> 00:34:18.480 because it's not me controlling when we move 00:34:19.699 --> 00:34:20.199 on to the next talk, as was evidenced 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:22.179 yesterday when we got yonked to the next 00:34:25.020 --> 00:34:25.159 talk. So Bob, feel free to take all the time 00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:26.280 you want to answer questions. 00:34:27.719 --> 00:34:28.040 People, if you wanna join the Big Blue Button 00:34:29.960 --> 00:34:30.060 room, the links are available and open on the 00:34:31.480 --> 00:34:31.719 talk page. You can join and ask as many 00:34:32.560 --> 00:34:33.060 questions as you want to Bob. 00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:34.440 And for us, with a live stream, 00:34:36.219 --> 00:34:36.500 we'll be moving on to the next talk in about 00:34:38.940 --> 00:34:39.060 30 seconds. So Bob, all that's left is for me 00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:40.900 to thank you for your presentation again this 00:34:42.100 --> 00:34:42.600 year and for all your answers. 00:34:44.060 --> 00:34:44.560 [Speaker 1]: Thank you, Leo. 00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:46.440 [Speaker 0]: All right. Bye bye, Bob. 00:34:48.080 --> 00:34:48.239 And we'll be moving on to the next talk in 00:34:49.900 --> 00:34:50.400 about 10 seconds. See you in a bit. 00:34:55.860 --> 00:34:56.139 All right, Bob, we are off air I think now. 00:34:57.540 --> 00:34:57.720 Thank you so much. I need to get moving for 00:35:01.820 --> 00:35:02.320 [Speaker 1]: Okay, is somebody gonna keep writing answers 00:35:04.040 --> 00:35:04.540 in here or I need to type them in? 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:06.280 [Speaker 0]: the next talk. It's probably best now if you 00:35:09.160 --> 00:35:09.480 read the questions on your own and answer 00:35:10.680 --> 00:35:11.000 them. We'll collate everything together, 00:35:11.980 --> 00:35:12.480 we'd just like to have your answers. 00:35:16.680 --> 00:35:17.180 [Speaker 1]: I hope some people will join the BBB. 00:35:21.140 --> 00:35:21.340 [Speaker 0]: it in my... All right, 00:35:21.340 --> 00:35:21.840 bye-bye. 00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:23.300 [Speaker 1]: But I'll start. I'll put Bye-bye. 00:35:28.360 --> 00:35:28.580 So let me take a second here to see what 00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:32.980 questions we have. Did we cover that? 00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:42.900 OK. The point is why not upstream search 00:35:46.100 --> 00:35:46.600 interface? Could you clarify that question? 00:35:50.980 --> 00:35:51.420 I don't quite know what that means. 00:35:53.620 --> 00:35:53.800 So I'll go on to the next 1 and come back to 00:35:57.520 --> 00:35:57.660 that. Hyperlinks been around for a number of 00:35:59.620 --> 00:35:59.860 years now. What inspired you to write it back 00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:01.460 around the time of its birth? 00:36:02.640 --> 00:36:03.140 Well, that's a good question. 00:36:06.940 --> 00:36:07.360 It was born before the World Wide Web, 00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:09.260 actually. And it was right before. 00:36:12.600 --> 00:36:13.100 I remember we were in the midst of a version 00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:16.300 when the first version of the web occurred. 00:36:19.640 --> 00:36:19.820 And I was thinking that there was going to be 00:36:22.200 --> 00:36:22.700 an information explosion of unstructured 00:36:26.920 --> 00:36:27.140 information. And like we needed to have much 00:36:30.660 --> 00:36:30.920 better tools to be able to manage say like 00:36:36.300 --> 00:36:36.740 5,000 email messages coming in and all sorts 00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:39.260 of non-database-oriented information 00:36:41.500 --> 00:36:42.000 structures. So I said we need an advanced 00:36:45.860 --> 00:36:46.080 interactive hypertext system and it needs to 00:36:49.160 --> 00:36:49.320 work with all the general capabilities that 00:36:53.600 --> 00:36:54.100 we use like email and our document production 00:36:58.180 --> 00:36:58.500 systems. So I was doing research at the time 00:37:03.960 --> 00:37:04.200 at a university And I decided to work on 00:37:05.640 --> 00:37:06.140 something that we called personalized 00:37:07.020 --> 00:37:07.520 information environments. 00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:10.120 And there's a paper about this out there if 00:37:11.540 --> 00:37:12.040 you want to dig it out on the web. 00:37:14.860 --> 00:37:15.360 So Pies, as they were called, 00:37:19.620 --> 00:37:20.040 was an architecture which would have a bunch 00:37:23.940 --> 00:37:24.100 of managers, like Hyperbole was 1 of the 00:37:25.320 --> 00:37:25.820 managers, the hypertext manager, 00:37:29.060 --> 00:37:29.440 and then a bunch of point tools that would 00:37:30.220 --> 00:37:30.720 leverage the managers, 00:37:33.080 --> 00:37:33.580 like an email reader would be a point tool 00:37:35.640 --> 00:37:36.140 that would leverage the hypertext manager. 00:37:39.200 --> 00:37:39.480 And so the first, I did in fact write 00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:40.460 something called PyMail, 00:37:43.340 --> 00:37:43.840 which was very much Gmail-like, 00:37:47.140 --> 00:37:47.640 before Gmail. And so inside, 00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:51.300 and I did a, it was like our mail in a way, 00:37:53.520 --> 00:37:54.020 but inside your our mail summaries, 00:37:56.720 --> 00:37:57.180 for example, you could have explicit buttons 00:38:00.680 --> 00:38:01.120 embedded and that were drawn from the subject 00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:02.300 of your email message, 00:38:05.640 --> 00:38:06.140 and they'd work just like the regular button. 00:38:09.520 --> 00:38:10.020 So it was very flexible and it had rule-based 00:38:11.140 --> 00:38:11.640 processing and things. 00:38:14.180 --> 00:38:14.340 So Hyperbole came out of that and it's come a 00:38:19.020 --> 00:38:19.520 long way, But it's still a very useful core 00:38:22.200 --> 00:38:22.440 hypertext system, hypermedia system I should 00:38:26.520 --> 00:38:26.920 say. Are you familiar with the Embark 00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:30.060 package? I am a bit. I've just started using 00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:31.900 it. I think there's some overlapping 00:38:33.700 --> 00:38:34.200 functionality with hyperbole. 00:38:39.140 --> 00:38:39.360 Yes, we've found that people over time have 00:38:41.160 --> 00:38:41.600 enjoyed hyperbole and have started 00:38:43.460 --> 00:38:43.960 replicating some of its features, 00:38:45.380 --> 00:38:45.880 small amounts of the features. 00:38:51.120 --> 00:38:51.340 I talked to, I hope I don't miss his name, 00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:56.000 but O'Adam who writes that once in a while we 00:38:59.040 --> 00:38:59.480 dialogue and I think Embark is great, 00:39:04.080 --> 00:39:04.500 you know, I'll give him some pointers too and 00:39:07.740 --> 00:39:08.040 he thinks that Embark and hyperbole are quite 00:39:10.240 --> 00:39:10.740 compatible too, just like organ hyperbole. 00:39:12.580 --> 00:39:13.080 So that's how we like to keep it. 00:39:17.940 --> 00:39:18.140 Some people prefer just a small package of 00:39:20.920 --> 00:39:21.100 MBARC, and it does different things than what 00:39:23.600 --> 00:39:23.800 Hyperbole does. So I think you use all of 00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:27.540 these tools together, and they can work very 00:39:33.460 --> 00:39:33.960 well together. Any other questions? 00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:38.300 Anybody still here? If not, 00:39:40.680 --> 00:39:41.180 probably people are off to another talk. 00:39:47.160 --> 00:39:47.660 So thank you very much and look for Hyperbole 00:39:51.340 --> 00:39:51.840 version 9 in the next week. 00:39:56.380 --> 00:39:56.880 Thanks very much. Bye. 00:40:06.660 --> 00:40:07.120 Should I leave BBB? Oh Alpha Papa's here. 00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:16.040 Hey. Good to see you. Alright, 00:40:22.240 --> 00:40:22.740 well... Well, I'll stay for another minute, 00:40:26.920 --> 00:40:27.280 but I think I'm going to go off video 2 and 00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:29.780 start listening to another talk. 00:40:30.720 --> 00:40:30.980 Thanks, everyone. Thanks, 00:40:30.980 --> 00:40:31.480 everyone. 00:40:56.920 --> 00:40:56.960 Yes, I can hear you. Yes, 00:40:59.720 --> 00:41:00.040 [Speaker 0]: Have you been answering questions? 00:41:03.540 --> 00:41:03.700 [Speaker 1]: I can hear you. finished answering the 00:41:04.700 --> 00:41:05.200 questions. We're all done. 00:41:07.200 --> 00:41:07.280 [Speaker 0]: I Okay, cool. Well, what I'm going to do, 00:41:08.100 --> 00:41:08.400 I'm going to close the room, 00:41:09.720 --> 00:41:10.160 unless you want to go a little longer, 00:41:11.640 --> 00:41:11.880 because this talk that we're playing right 00:41:13.180 --> 00:41:13.480 now is finishing really quick, 00:41:14.620 --> 00:41:15.120 and we don't have a Q&A afterwards. 00:41:18.540 --> 00:41:19.040 So, do you want to stay on air or something? 00:41:21.240 --> 00:41:21.740 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, if you let people know to come back, 00:41:23.140 --> 00:41:23.320 because some went to go hear that 00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:24.900 presentation, I can stay. 00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:27.880 [Speaker 0]: Sure, I'll make an announcement then. 00:41:29.240 --> 00:41:29.680 And you can stay, we'll just put on BBB. 00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:31.840 You can stay muted until people join. 00:41:33.440 --> 00:41:33.640 But this way it opens up avenues for people 00:41:35.580 --> 00:41:35.980 to join. And if no 1 shows up in 5 minutes, 00:41:36.560 --> 00:41:37.060 we'll all go on break. 00:41:40.560 --> 00:41:41.060 Does that sound okay? Cool, 00:41:44.180 --> 00:41:44.320 I'll go back to the management in the 00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:45.780 background and I'll let you know. 00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:47.240 [Speaker 1]: Great, thank you. Where are you? 00:41:47.700 --> 00:41:48.200 Oh yeah, okay. 00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:50.740 [Speaker 0]: So sorry, I kind of need to run. 00:41:51.880 --> 00:41:52.380 I'll be back in about 2 minutes. 00:42:05.740 --> 00:42:06.240 Okay, bye. Bye. 00:43:27.040 --> 00:43:27.540 Okay, Bob, I've won the stream. 00:43:28.660 --> 00:43:28.940 We are joining it now. 00:43:29.880 --> 00:43:30.380 We've got about 5 seconds. 00:43:43.080 --> 00:43:43.580 And I think we are back. 00:43:50.760 --> 00:43:51.260 so we are gone, Bob, please. 00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:53.300 [Speaker 1]: Hi. So, yeah, I was going to say, 00:43:56.720 --> 00:43:57.160 can we see if anybody comes back in the room? 00:43:57.620 --> 00:43:58.120 How do you tell? 00:44:03.420 --> 00:44:03.740 [Speaker 0]: You should be able to show on the left, 00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:04.920 you've got on BbBlueButton, 00:44:06.300 --> 00:44:06.380 you've got a button, I'm showing it on the 00:44:08.200 --> 00:44:08.440 screen, but you've got a little button that 00:44:09.880 --> 00:44:10.380 allows you to show the people joining. 00:44:15.140 --> 00:44:15.340 So, hello everyone. Let's see if you had more 00:44:16.760 --> 00:44:17.080 question on your pad that we could be taking 00:44:18.920 --> 00:44:19.040 in the meantime, just give me a second to 00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:23.500 [Speaker 1]: your pad. Here we go, an error occurred. 00:44:32.720 --> 00:44:33.220 [Speaker 0]: find Okay. All right, it's loading up. 00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:38.440 [Speaker 1]: Wow. Feels like there's an AI writing this 00:44:41.180 --> 00:44:41.680 stuff on the pad. Has it? 00:44:45.820 --> 00:44:46.060 Is this the last pad? Oh no, 00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:47.080 this is a different 1, 00:44:51.020 --> 00:44:51.520 [Speaker 0]: Which question are you looking at now? 00:44:53.460 --> 00:44:53.820 [Speaker 1]: sorry. It was a different pad, 00:44:55.940 --> 00:44:56.440 [Speaker 0]: Oh right. 00:44:57.260 --> 00:44:57.380 [Speaker 2]: Okay, here 00:44:57.560 --> 00:44:58.060 [Speaker 1]: that was the problem. we go. 00:45:00.660 --> 00:45:00.900 Okay, I'm back. So, yeah, 00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:03.480 it looks like... Is anybody back? 00:45:06.680 --> 00:45:07.180 Send, if you're here, send a chat message. 00:45:09.520 --> 00:45:10.020 [Speaker 0]: Yeah, because it's been something. 00:45:13.740 --> 00:45:14.240 You have, apparently, whenever we leave those 00:45:17.720 --> 00:45:18.220 BBB chat room open, the moment we go off air, 00:45:20.080 --> 00:45:20.280 people start joining and asking a lot of very 00:45:21.980 --> 00:45:22.240 interesting questions and you know that's all 00:45:24.140 --> 00:45:24.280 well and good, we'll be able to put them on 00:45:26.160 --> 00:45:26.280 the page later on. But it'd be great if you 00:45:28.040 --> 00:45:28.260 could also have those discussions when we are 00:45:29.640 --> 00:45:30.140 live because a lot of people would benefit 00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:32.120 from the brilliance that goes on in this 00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:34.760 room. So please don't be shy, 00:45:39.400 --> 00:45:39.900 [Speaker 1]: So we're on the general stream now? 00:45:41.660 --> 00:45:41.760 [Speaker 0]: join and talk. Yep, we are back on the 00:45:45.940 --> 00:45:46.060 general stream. We have about until 10 of the 00:45:47.680 --> 00:45:48.180 next hour, which is 19 minutes. 00:45:55.640 --> 00:45:56.140 [Speaker 1]: Just- Why So have you ever tried hyperbole, 00:45:56.380 --> 00:45:56.880 Leo? 00:45:58.780 --> 00:45:59.280 [Speaker 0]: don't you and I talk? I have never, 00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:02.840 but You know, it feels like every year when 00:46:03.380 --> 00:46:03.740 you present something, 00:46:05.140 --> 00:46:05.640 it feels like I already know so much. 00:46:07.080 --> 00:46:07.580 Because of the buttons, 00:46:09.600 --> 00:46:10.080 it feels like it's also something that we've 00:46:11.980 --> 00:46:12.440 reinvented many times in Emacs. 00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:13.940 It's like conversion to evolution, 00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:16.560 except you're the 1 who started ahead of 00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:17.420 everyone else. 00:46:19.200 --> 00:46:19.700 [Speaker 1]: Well, that's a good point because, 00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:23.200 you know, we have, Emacs itself has push 00:46:25.240 --> 00:46:25.520 buttons, which you see like in the help 00:46:27.220 --> 00:46:27.540 buffers. And those used to, 00:46:29.340 --> 00:46:29.840 we didn't really do anything with those, 00:46:32.280 --> 00:46:32.780 but now we've subsumed them as implicit 00:46:34.840 --> 00:46:35.340 buttons as well. So you're made a return, 00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:38.500 we'll work on those anywhere too. 00:46:41.320 --> 00:46:41.820 So, we're trying to get, 00:46:45.660 --> 00:46:45.920 you use 1 key, right? To control every type 00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:47.080 of button that you have. 00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:48.420 It works on org links, 00:46:51.300 --> 00:46:51.800 org buttons anywhere, or URLs. 00:46:53.940 --> 00:46:54.440 Because it's so simple. 00:46:58.480 --> 00:46:58.820 All you need is like 5 to 10 lines of code to 00:47:02.560 --> 00:47:02.760 map. You map the pattern that represents a 00:47:04.900 --> 00:47:05.060 concept, right? And then you can create an 00:47:07.500 --> 00:47:07.700 infinite number of those buttons from that 00:47:09.240 --> 00:47:09.520 type. That's what's really cool about 00:47:12.560 --> 00:47:13.060 Hyperbole is say I have a 500 page document 00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:15.600 and it uses a really weird format for 00:47:16.560 --> 00:47:17.060 cross-referencing, right? 00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:22.320 I write my 3 lines of pattern match to work 00:47:23.860 --> 00:47:24.200 with that, and then everywhere throughout 00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:25.960 that document and the hundreds of other 00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:27.680 documents that will be created with that 00:47:30.380 --> 00:47:30.880 format, they're all live buttons instantly. 00:47:32.740 --> 00:47:33.240 Nothing changed about the document. 00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:35.540 That's really cool. You know, 00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:37.860 word mode, we have global word buttons, 00:47:41.860 --> 00:47:42.040 but mostly it has to be embedded within an 00:47:44.260 --> 00:47:44.760 org file, right? And follow that syntax. 00:47:51.660 --> 00:47:51.900 With hyperbole, it's like we can adapt as the 00:47:54.800 --> 00:47:55.300 world adapts around us to whatever formats 00:47:56.440 --> 00:47:56.940 people want to use that day. 00:47:59.240 --> 00:47:59.380 And you can even change things to look the 00:48:01.700 --> 00:48:02.200 way you want, right, and have your own 00:48:04.540 --> 00:48:04.860 cross-references. There's something built 00:48:07.060 --> 00:48:07.560 into Hyperbole that's not really active, 00:48:12.620 --> 00:48:13.120 which was sort of along the Zettelkasten way. 00:48:15.200 --> 00:48:15.420 We wrote this a long time ago. 00:48:16.460 --> 00:48:16.960 It's called hib-doc.el, 00:48:21.720 --> 00:48:22.200 and it's a card catalog notion. 00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:25.820 So it uses the high rollo in the background 00:48:29.900 --> 00:48:30.180 but it lets you create these forms that are 00:48:32.660 --> 00:48:32.800 cards that you fill out with whatever kind of 00:48:35.080 --> 00:48:35.380 data you want and then it gives you the full 00:48:38.040 --> 00:48:38.520 text searching across the cards and each card 00:48:41.260 --> 00:48:41.760 has a unique ID that you can reference 00:48:44.920 --> 00:48:45.240 similar to org IDs but these are human 00:48:49.700 --> 00:48:49.860 readable and human typable and so you can you 00:48:52.460 --> 00:48:52.960 can just have a cross-reference to any doc ID 00:48:55.940 --> 00:48:56.100 and essentially create what Engelbart used to 00:49:00.180 --> 00:49:00.480 call a journal, which is all these IDs on 00:49:02.980 --> 00:49:03.220 documents that point you directly to the 00:49:05.460 --> 00:49:05.640 document archive so that you could have like 00:49:09.780 --> 00:49:10.020 your internal publishing system and you know 00:49:12.440 --> 00:49:12.940 it's very simple to do and it's just 1 module 00:49:14.160 --> 00:49:14.660 added on to Hyperbole. 00:49:19.020 --> 00:49:19.140 [Speaker 0]: Yeah it's especially interesting for me you 00:49:20.960 --> 00:49:21.140 know because coming back to the side of 00:49:23.240 --> 00:49:23.400 convergent evolutions it's funny because the 00:49:24.380 --> 00:49:24.880 parameters are a little different. 00:49:25.760 --> 00:49:26.260 For us with org buttons, 00:49:29.060 --> 00:49:29.340 we're very happy. A lot of the stuff during 00:49:31.020 --> 00:49:31.360 EmacsConf is run with org mode, 00:49:33.840 --> 00:49:34.340 like we have Elisp going everywhere to 00:49:36.820 --> 00:49:37.320 compile a lot of org properties, 00:49:39.140 --> 00:49:39.640 like speaker information, 00:49:41.120 --> 00:49:41.480 for instance, how long the talk is, 00:49:42.500 --> 00:49:42.800 the title, and all this. 00:49:44.540 --> 00:49:44.760 We have all of this in an org file, 00:49:45.520 --> 00:49:46.020 which we use as a database, 00:49:47.480 --> 00:49:47.800 but then we can do so much stuff. 00:49:50.500 --> 00:49:50.740 We can send email and we can update the 00:49:52.080 --> 00:49:52.200 schedule. By the way, if you're interested in 00:49:54.160 --> 00:49:54.280 this, we'll have a talk on the DevTrack in 00:49:56.320 --> 00:49:56.640 the afternoon today that Sacha did and it's 00:49:57.800 --> 00:49:58.140 wonderful. I'm just teasing it. 00:49:58.540 --> 00:49:59.040 [Speaker 1]: Oh, that's great. 00:50:00.640 --> 00:50:01.140 [Speaker 0]: But coming back to Hyperbole, 00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:04.000 for you, it feels like the parameters were 00:50:06.140 --> 00:50:06.560 slightly different because the feeling was, 00:50:08.600 --> 00:50:09.000 I just want a tunnel that can work between 00:50:11.100 --> 00:50:11.240 any type of files. Now it's all well and 00:50:13.100 --> 00:50:13.580 good, Org-Rome, D-Note, 00:50:14.480 --> 00:50:14.760 and all this stuff like this, 00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:16.860 they create bidirectional links, 00:50:19.040 --> 00:50:19.540 but it's only between org-mode files. 00:50:21.540 --> 00:50:22.040 Whereas what you're achieving with Hyperbole, 00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:24.760 and you've done it much earlier than everyone 00:50:26.940 --> 00:50:27.440 else, is that you have this concept 00:50:29.260 --> 00:50:29.440 regardless of the type of file that you're 00:50:32.020 --> 00:50:32.520 using. And I find this to be beautiful. 00:50:34.900 --> 00:50:35.240 Like 5 years ago, whenever you were talking 00:50:36.900 --> 00:50:37.280 about hyperbole, I did not have a concrete 00:50:38.040 --> 00:50:38.540 idea of what was happening. 00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:40.360 But ever since I've gone through the journey 00:50:42.040 --> 00:50:42.380 of really understanding what the El Caster 00:50:44.500 --> 00:50:45.000 method were about, it feels like you were 00:50:46.600 --> 00:50:46.980 foreigners in the topic. 00:50:48.340 --> 00:50:48.540 Obviously, you've mentioned the mother of all 00:50:49.740 --> 00:50:50.240 demos by Edward Engelbart, 00:50:53.600 --> 00:50:54.100 but those ideas are not novel, 00:50:56.520 --> 00:50:56.820 but it feels like only now are they starting 00:50:58.140 --> 00:50:58.520 to be appropriated by people, 00:50:59.340 --> 00:50:59.800 especially in free software, 00:51:00.700 --> 00:51:01.200 and it's really good to see. 00:51:02.200 --> 00:51:02.440 I'm really excited to, 00:51:04.280 --> 00:51:04.600 well, have my small part to play in this. 00:51:06.760 --> 00:51:06.960 And I'm also excited to be able to chat with 00:51:09.640 --> 00:51:10.140 you and people like Bastien and other people 00:51:10.900 --> 00:51:11.400 about all those topics. 00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:13.780 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, I think, you know, 00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:16.640 it's fun that we can laugh now about when 00:51:19.540 --> 00:51:20.000 people say people are still using Emacs, 00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:22.800 you know, is because they're not used, 00:51:23.960 --> 00:51:24.160 certain people aren't using it. 00:51:26.640 --> 00:51:26.880 They have no idea of how far it's come and 00:51:28.260 --> 00:51:28.760 how powerful it is. And, 00:51:31.020 --> 00:51:31.520 you know, we're leveraging Elisp heavily, 00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:33.940 obviously, but if you look at the definition 00:51:37.480 --> 00:51:37.980 of our types, they look exactly like defunds 00:51:41.160 --> 00:51:41.420 in ELisp. And we've been able to do that 00:51:42.280 --> 00:51:42.780 because of Lisp macros. 00:51:46.420 --> 00:51:46.920 So we basically have our own domain-specific 00:51:49.920 --> 00:51:50.160 language there. But there's almost nothing to 00:51:52.500 --> 00:51:52.740 learn because it's just like what you know 00:51:55.440 --> 00:51:55.680 from UList. So again, you know, 00:51:57.720 --> 00:51:57.980 taking the concept and leveraging it, 00:52:00.060 --> 00:52:00.520 abstracting it and leveraging it multiple 00:52:02.440 --> 00:52:02.940 times gives you a lot of power. 00:52:05.820 --> 00:52:06.040 And people, you know, somebody said the other 00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:07.500 day, and I said, finally, 00:52:09.860 --> 00:52:10.360 this quote happened. He said, 00:52:14.820 --> 00:52:15.060 there's so many things that I do with 00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:17.200 hyperbole every day that I forget that I'm 00:52:21.220 --> 00:52:21.440 using hyperbole. Because it's just so 00:52:23.080 --> 00:52:23.580 embedded in this guy's workflow. 00:52:25.240 --> 00:52:25.440 And that's really how I use it. 00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:27.380 You know, there are features in there, 00:52:28.580 --> 00:52:29.060 can't use everything, right? 00:52:31.360 --> 00:52:31.860 So there are features that I don't use, 00:52:35.380 --> 00:52:35.580 but I use a lot of things and it's all like 00:52:37.080 --> 00:52:37.580 muscle memory, just like the keyboard, 00:52:39.240 --> 00:52:39.740 the Emacs key bindings. 00:52:41.780 --> 00:52:42.180 So it's very exciting to get to that level. 00:52:44.120 --> 00:52:44.300 And now, you know, we haven't started with 00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:46.940 the chatbots or any of the AI integration, 00:52:49.240 --> 00:52:49.440 but I'm starting to think about that a little 00:52:53.140 --> 00:52:53.520 bit and how we'll interface to that world and 00:52:54.820 --> 00:52:55.320 I think it's going to be very exciting. 00:52:58.180 --> 00:52:58.340 [Speaker 0]: Yeah, likewise and I think it harks back to 00:53:00.520 --> 00:53:00.660 what we were talking about before when we 00:53:03.560 --> 00:53:03.700 mentioned Hyperbole being a package inside of 00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:05.300 an ecosystem that is Emacs. 00:53:07.740 --> 00:53:08.040 But it's not because something is well 00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:10.560 circumscribed in terms of feature set that it 00:53:12.500 --> 00:53:12.880 does not influence everything around it. 00:53:14.680 --> 00:53:15.060 Like Hyperbole can be used with something 00:53:17.900 --> 00:53:18.080 completely at the opposite end of what it was 00:53:21.180 --> 00:53:21.380 intended for, just because it provides a good 00:53:23.480 --> 00:53:23.860 set of tools that can be used wherever else 00:53:25.900 --> 00:53:26.100 you want in Emacs. And it's the same thing 00:53:27.720 --> 00:53:27.980 with Org Mode, it's the same thing with many, 00:53:28.780 --> 00:53:29.280 many different things. 00:53:32.320 --> 00:53:32.820 And it feels like integrating AIs, 00:53:36.420 --> 00:53:36.920 or generative AIs, into Emacs would provide 00:53:42.160 --> 00:53:42.340 such a tool that could apply to any kind of 00:53:44.540 --> 00:53:45.040 other major mode or any kind of other use. 00:53:46.460 --> 00:53:46.640 So I'm also excited to see this. 00:53:49.900 --> 00:53:50.220 It feels like we are sitting at the brink of 00:53:51.980 --> 00:53:52.480 a revolution. I'm not going to say the acne 00:53:54.200 --> 00:53:54.440 stuff, but it definitely feels like right 00:53:57.100 --> 00:53:57.560 now, by trying to see what we can do with AI, 00:53:59.160 --> 00:53:59.380 it's definitely going to change the way not 00:54:01.360 --> 00:54:01.560 only we program, but also the way we take 00:54:02.720 --> 00:54:03.160 notes and the way we design stuff, 00:54:04.940 --> 00:54:05.220 arcing back to what John Wigley said 00:54:08.160 --> 00:54:08.660 yesterday about his draft program on macOS. 00:54:10.440 --> 00:54:10.940 Bob, if you don't mind, 00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:13.080 I see people typing questions and I also see 00:54:14.540 --> 00:54:14.820 people joining on people buttons, 00:54:16.720 --> 00:54:16.920 so I'm going to read you the 2 questions that 00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:18.260 have been added. Is that okay? 00:54:20.080 --> 00:54:20.580 [Speaker 1]: Great, go for it. 00:54:22.600 --> 00:54:23.100 [Speaker 0]: Cool, so first question. 00:54:24.880 --> 00:54:25.240 Wow, what you're describing now, 00:54:27.320 --> 00:54:27.520 and that's when you were talking about the 00:54:31.580 --> 00:54:31.840 bi-directional links and especially the last 00:54:32.540 --> 00:54:33.040 question in its entirety, 00:54:35.220 --> 00:54:35.440 What you're describing now reminds me a lot 00:54:37.040 --> 00:54:37.440 about HyperCard that I grew up on. 00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:39.220 Do you know if Hyperbole inspired Bill 00:54:40.840 --> 00:54:41.040 Atkinson or if you were inspired by 00:54:42.880 --> 00:54:43.040 HyperCard? Or were there just a lot of 00:54:44.580 --> 00:54:44.820 thoughts about hyper-contextuality around 00:54:45.020 --> 00:54:45.520 that time? 00:54:49.600 --> 00:54:50.100 [Speaker 1]: Alright, well this is another interesting 00:54:52.120 --> 00:54:52.360 anecdote. I don't know if it's true or not, 00:54:57.340 --> 00:54:57.840 but I think HyperCard predated our stuff. 00:55:00.180 --> 00:55:00.480 It was right around the same time when 00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:02.420 Hyperbole was starting out. 00:55:04.540 --> 00:55:05.040 But when I was doing the Pi research, 00:55:08.460 --> 00:55:08.800 I worked at, when I left school, 00:55:11.200 --> 00:55:11.280 I worked at Motorola, and we did a lot of 00:55:12.540 --> 00:55:13.040 work with Apple back then. 00:55:15.060 --> 00:55:15.480 And somebody came back and he said, 00:55:17.540 --> 00:55:18.040 you know, the people over there have seen 00:55:21.900 --> 00:55:21.940 your Pi research and they really liked it a 00:55:25.840 --> 00:55:26.020 lot. And so they were leveraging that when 00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:28.440 they decided to create the division that they 00:55:33.120 --> 00:55:33.280 called Apple Pi, which was the originator of 00:55:36.300 --> 00:55:36.500 the Newton which eventually led to the 00:55:40.440 --> 00:55:40.940 iPhone. So it all kind of is interconnected 00:55:44.120 --> 00:55:44.380 just like the impact that free software has 00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:47.240 had around the world. So you never know where 00:55:49.360 --> 00:55:49.860 your stuff is gonna go or end up. 00:55:53.160 --> 00:55:53.400 [Speaker 0]: Right. All right, moving on to the next 00:55:55.600 --> 00:55:55.840 question. Is it possible to only use 1 00:55:57.340 --> 00:55:57.800 feature of hyperbole without the others, 00:56:00.140 --> 00:56:00.580 i.e. Using only the implicit explicit buttons 00:56:03.340 --> 00:56:03.580 without I control I roller or without having 00:56:05.860 --> 00:56:05.920 to rewrite part of the code in hyperbole in 00:56:07.540 --> 00:56:08.040 order to be able to load a smaller hyperbole. 00:56:08.660 --> 00:56:09.160 Does it make sense? 00:56:12.140 --> 00:56:12.640 [Speaker 1]: Yes we get asked this all the time. 00:56:16.100 --> 00:56:16.560 So you can use any little bit that you want 00:56:19.120 --> 00:56:19.620 anywhere right you can even just call code 00:56:23.160 --> 00:56:23.660 from Hyperbole. I mean you don't use 00:56:24.720 --> 00:56:25.080 everything in Emacs, right? 00:56:27.180 --> 00:56:27.680 But you still install Emacs on your machine. 00:56:29.580 --> 00:56:30.080 It's exactly the same thing. 00:56:32.900 --> 00:56:33.280 Those libraries don't take up any memory, 00:56:36.140 --> 00:56:36.380 they take up a little disk space and it's so 00:56:38.360 --> 00:56:38.520 trivial compared to the amount of disk we 00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:41.780 have today. So a lot of things are not loaded 00:56:43.240 --> 00:56:43.740 unless you activate them. 00:56:48.720 --> 00:56:48.900 And so I know that you do have to build all 00:56:50.860 --> 00:56:51.340 those things. So maybe that's what bothers 00:56:55.520 --> 00:56:56.020 people. It takes 2 minutes if you're using, 00:56:57.920 --> 00:56:58.400 it depends how fast your computer is. 00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:01.160 But you build it once on install like every 00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:04.600 other package. And it used to be that there 00:57:06.460 --> 00:57:06.620 would be a lot of warnings just because of 00:57:08.740 --> 00:57:09.020 the way we wrote the code and we didn't 00:57:10.920 --> 00:57:11.120 really have to deal with some of those 00:57:12.620 --> 00:57:13.080 warnings. But with this new release, 00:57:14.640 --> 00:57:15.140 we've gotten rid of almost all of them, 00:57:19.280 --> 00:57:19.780 including the native compiler messages. 00:57:22.120 --> 00:57:22.620 So it should be a very clean install now, 00:57:26.120 --> 00:57:26.620 and just use 1 part at a time. 00:57:29.580 --> 00:57:29.820 But the other parts are there in case you 00:57:31.960 --> 00:57:32.080 make a link to something and you use a 00:57:34.360 --> 00:57:34.600 facility just like I was showing as I went 00:57:35.860 --> 00:57:36.360 across subsystems today. 00:57:37.640 --> 00:57:38.040 It may take you a year, 00:57:39.880 --> 00:57:40.120 but then all of a sudden you find the use 00:57:42.100 --> 00:57:42.340 case for Hyrule and you say, 00:57:43.520 --> 00:57:44.020 oh, I'm glad I have it there. 00:57:47.140 --> 00:57:47.540 And yes, some of these things could be split 00:57:49.320 --> 00:57:49.540 into sub packages like you do in the org 00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:52.500 ecosystem. But given our limited resources on 00:57:56.120 --> 00:57:56.420 the team, we find having them all in 1 gives 00:57:57.440 --> 00:57:57.940 us a higher level of quality, 00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:00.980 and lets us deliver a better integrated 00:58:02.800 --> 00:58:03.300 system for your use. 00:58:06.040 --> 00:58:06.300 [Speaker 0]: Yeah, exactly. And I think, 00:58:08.600 --> 00:58:09.100 you know, it's, it's not a monolith. 00:58:12.240 --> 00:58:12.540 I mean, it's usually easier, 00:58:14.340 --> 00:58:14.620 easy, more easy, more easy. 00:58:16.000 --> 00:58:16.480 Sorry, I was right on the first try. 00:58:20.140 --> 00:58:20.640 It's usually easier to maintain a monolith 00:58:22.780 --> 00:58:23.140 that contains many bits of functionality like 00:58:25.060 --> 00:58:25.280 org. You have plenty of people using org 00:58:26.680 --> 00:58:27.180 mode, not using org-agenda, 00:58:28.780 --> 00:58:28.980 for instance, or you've got plenty of people 00:58:31.320 --> 00:58:31.560 using org-mode and barely using Babel because 00:58:34.240 --> 00:58:34.740 it doesn't really translate to their use. 00:58:37.500 --> 00:58:37.720 And I feel like I very much agree with you. 00:58:39.320 --> 00:58:39.520 It's okay to install a package and only use 00:58:39.920 --> 00:58:40.420 some of the functions. 00:58:43.080 --> 00:58:43.580 I was reminded, as you were discussing this, 00:58:44.640 --> 00:58:45.140 of the consults package, 00:58:46.420 --> 00:58:46.920 which is part of the VertiCo, 00:58:50.540 --> 00:58:51.040 mbark and marginalia and all this. 00:58:54.520 --> 00:58:54.960 Consult, it replaces a lot of the Emacs 00:58:56.820 --> 00:58:56.980 built-in commands like for finding your 00:58:59.760 --> 00:58:59.900 buffers or finding text inside of your 00:59:03.480 --> 00:59:03.980 buffer. It's great. And you do not need to 00:59:06.140 --> 00:59:06.300 completely move to consult as you get 00:59:08.940 --> 00:59:09.080 started. You can start colonizing 1 step at a 00:59:11.040 --> 00:59:11.540 time the function that you usually use. 00:59:15.580 --> 00:59:16.060 I highly recommend to people to not let the 00:59:18.560 --> 00:59:18.700 size of a project deter them from trying it 00:59:21.140 --> 00:59:21.640 out because, again, in Emacs, 00:59:22.300 --> 00:59:22.800 everything is horizontal. 00:59:27.980 --> 00:59:28.180 If somehow you want to do something that was 00:59:29.440 --> 00:59:29.640 not intended primarily for this, 00:59:31.720 --> 00:59:32.220 or if you only want to use 10% of a package, 00:59:35.160 --> 00:59:35.540 well, do it. An example that I have for me is 00:59:39.660 --> 00:59:39.840 that Lispy is the minor mode that I use for 00:59:41.880 --> 00:59:42.380 editing Elisp documents, 00:59:45.140 --> 00:59:45.380 and it's great. Elisp provides similar 00:59:46.840 --> 00:59:47.040 functions to Paredit, which might be a little 00:59:48.960 --> 00:59:49.300 more popular, which allows you to have modal 00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:52.540 editing when you are on specific parts of a 00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:54.620 file, like the opening parenthesis or the 00:59:56.040 --> 00:59:56.480 closing parenthesis. It's great, 00:59:58.080 --> 00:59:58.320 it provides modal editing for those modes, 01:00:00.840 --> 01:00:01.340 but I certainly do not know everything, 01:00:04.040 --> 01:00:04.280 every modal command associated to it. 01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:06.180 I just use the 1 that makes the most sense to 01:00:07.680 --> 01:00:08.180 me. So feel free to explore. 01:00:13.200 --> 01:00:13.700 [Speaker 1]: I'll just say, we get this so much. 01:00:15.360 --> 01:00:15.660 It's not that large. I mean, 01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:17.360 there's a fair number of files, 01:00:20.600 --> 01:00:20.820 but it's just like 1 major directory and then 01:00:21.840 --> 01:00:22.340 the KOutliner directory. 01:00:25.120 --> 01:00:25.560 And when you look at these things, 01:00:26.640 --> 01:00:27.140 you install web applications, 01:00:30.240 --> 01:00:30.440 everything else, just when you download the 01:00:31.700 --> 01:00:31.820 source code, it's much, 01:00:33.480 --> 01:00:33.980 much smaller than any of that. 01:00:37.120 --> 01:00:37.360 So I don't know why people you know accept 01:00:39.140 --> 01:00:39.640 that it's larger than your typical package. 01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:41.900 Why there's really an issue there. 01:00:44.580 --> 01:00:45.080 [Speaker 0]: I think it's because people tend to assume 01:00:47.980 --> 01:00:48.480 that a paradigm like the 1 you're describing, 01:00:51.360 --> 01:00:51.560 which seems to be changing the way you use 01:00:53.200 --> 01:00:53.480 Emacs in a way because you're no longer 01:00:55.520 --> 01:00:56.000 thinking of as buffers as separate entities, 01:00:57.520 --> 01:00:57.980 you can tunnel between them. 01:00:59.820 --> 01:01:00.180 You know, it feels like a huge paradigm shift 01:01:02.120 --> 01:01:02.320 and you assume that the code behind it is 01:01:03.880 --> 01:01:04.080 going to be humongous as well, 01:01:05.080 --> 01:01:05.380 but it's usually not the case. 01:01:07.480 --> 01:01:07.640 It's just that the idea is very pure at the 01:01:09.560 --> 01:01:10.060 start, and the paradigm shift that it allows 01:01:14.020 --> 01:01:14.120 is also magnificent. But at the end of the 01:01:15.700 --> 01:01:16.200 day, the code is fairly simple, 01:01:17.860 --> 01:01:18.360 because it does 1 thing and it does it well. 01:01:20.860 --> 01:01:21.180 [Speaker 1]: 1 thing I noticed too, 01:01:23.560 --> 01:01:23.760 I mean I'm a big believer in turnkey kind of 01:01:26.780 --> 01:01:27.180 systems. In fact a long time ago when I built 01:01:28.680 --> 01:01:29.180 an IDE on Emacs called InfoDoc, 01:01:31.980 --> 01:01:32.480 that was delivered pre-compiled. 01:01:35.760 --> 01:01:35.940 So it's like you download it like every other 01:01:39.140 --> 01:01:39.440 app and you run it. And so I think 01:01:41.980 --> 01:01:42.480 eliminating all the friction that occurs, 01:01:45.860 --> 01:01:46.360 and you know, I just got going recently with 01:01:48.860 --> 01:01:49.160 the wonderful packages that you just 01:01:50.980 --> 01:01:51.460 mentioned, VertiCo and Consult, 01:01:55.120 --> 01:01:55.320 but they don't have a manual that covers all 01:01:57.280 --> 01:01:57.780 that. They use sort of like a cookbook, 01:02:02.020 --> 01:02:02.220 a wiki online to answer a lot of the 01:02:04.380 --> 01:02:04.600 questions that people have and everybody has 01:02:05.860 --> 01:02:06.360 to figure out their configurations, 01:02:10.640 --> 01:02:10.880 you know, to make these things all work 01:02:14.180 --> 01:02:14.680 together. We'd like to do that engineering 01:02:17.080 --> 01:02:17.440 and say here it is, you know, 01:02:19.240 --> 01:02:19.500 it's like if you want to configure it and 01:02:20.920 --> 01:02:21.420 make it your own, you can do it. 01:02:24.860 --> 01:02:25.160 But there is a default configuration that 01:02:28.180 --> 01:02:28.380 handles all the typical use cases and you can 01:02:30.940 --> 01:02:31.220 just load it up and run because it's made to 01:02:35.860 --> 01:02:36.020 use, you don't have to hack it to make it 01:02:36.760 --> 01:02:37.260 useful for you. 01:02:40.380 --> 01:02:40.560 [Speaker 0]: Yeah, it reminds me of the discussion we had 01:02:42.240 --> 01:02:42.740 with Stéphane yesterday about sane defaults. 01:02:45.080 --> 01:02:45.580 And I think the question was, 01:02:48.580 --> 01:02:49.080 Emacs should probably ship with sane defaults 01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:51.740 for people. And Stéphane's answer was, 01:02:53.620 --> 01:02:53.800 well, my sane defaults might not be the same 01:02:54.720 --> 01:02:55.220 thing as your sane defaults. 01:02:57.160 --> 01:02:57.560 And that's why I think it's important, 01:02:59.020 --> 01:02:59.340 really, to have a core set of features, 01:03:00.800 --> 01:03:01.300 be it with hyperbole of org mode, 01:03:02.020 --> 01:03:02.520 that is well-documented, 01:03:05.220 --> 01:03:05.500 as you mentioned. But what I like about this 01:03:06.900 --> 01:03:07.260 in a way, and I think hyperbole is perhaps 01:03:08.800 --> 01:03:09.300 taking more benefits of this than Org Mode, 01:03:11.780 --> 01:03:12.280 is that the self-documentation aspect of it 01:03:14.340 --> 01:03:14.540 feels like it's easier with hyperbole because 01:03:16.820 --> 01:03:17.300 you're not bound by Org Mode buffers. 01:03:18.840 --> 01:03:19.340 You can link to just about everything. 01:03:23.940 --> 01:03:24.240 And for me, this ability to self-document is 01:03:26.040 --> 01:03:26.140 well, first, very true to the philosophy of 01:03:27.040 --> 01:03:27.540 Emacs in the first place, 01:03:31.400 --> 01:03:31.900 but also opens up those resonance cycles 01:03:34.040 --> 01:03:34.180 where, oh, you get interested and then you 01:03:35.320 --> 01:03:35.820 start reading up and then the documentation 01:03:37.860 --> 01:03:38.320 is so good that it feeds into your practice 01:03:40.840 --> 01:03:41.040 and then it goes nuclear and you gain so much 01:03:42.040 --> 01:03:42.540 knowledge as a result of this. 01:03:44.280 --> 01:03:44.440 All right, Bob, we are about out of time. 01:03:46.120 --> 01:03:46.280 We only have about 1 minute until we go to 01:03:47.720 --> 01:03:48.220 the next talk. Do you have any parting words? 01:03:53.360 --> 01:03:53.860 [Speaker 1]: I do. I think, you know, 01:03:56.380 --> 01:03:56.880 the world's complex, it's getting more 01:03:59.980 --> 01:04:00.480 complex. I think that's why people use Emacs 01:04:02.080 --> 01:04:02.560 in the first place, because it's a big 01:04:04.600 --> 01:04:04.920 system. You wouldn't use it unless you wanted 01:04:06.100 --> 01:04:06.600 it to simplify your life. 01:04:10.580 --> 01:04:10.760 Hyperbole is built with the same idea in 01:04:14.020 --> 01:04:14.180 mind. You may not get it just like a lot of 01:04:15.720 --> 01:04:16.020 people don't understand when they first 01:04:17.900 --> 01:04:18.400 encounter it, but when they do understand it, 01:04:20.860 --> 01:04:21.360 they're blown away. It changes their life. 01:04:24.520 --> 01:04:25.020 You know, when you really understand implicit 01:04:27.880 --> 01:04:28.100 buttons, I think that's 1 of the things in 01:04:30.480 --> 01:04:30.820 hyperbole that can change your Emacs working 01:04:33.840 --> 01:04:34.060 life. So just give that a try and I think 01:04:36.140 --> 01:04:36.640 you'll be pleasantly surprised across time. 01:04:39.720 --> 01:04:39.860 [Speaker 0]: And thank you so much Bob. 01:04:41.400 --> 01:04:41.600 We'll be moving on to the next talk in about 01:04:43.480 --> 01:04:43.620 20 seconds so everyone see you in a bit and 01:04:44.440 --> 01:04:44.940 Bob thank you so much again. 01:04:45.560 --> 01:04:46.060 [Speaker 1]: Thanks very much. Thank you. 01:04:52.800 --> 01:04:53.000 [Speaker 0]: All right I think we are off here now, 01:04:53.800 --> 01:04:53.980 so thank you so much Bob. 01:04:55.380 --> 01:04:55.540 I'm gonna need to step out and get ready for 01:04:59.100 --> 01:04:59.240 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, do your thing. You do a great job at 01:05:01.400 --> 01:05:01.760 it. But I wanted to ask you where in London 01:05:04.280 --> 01:05:04.780 [Speaker 0]: the next talk. I'm not in London, 01:05:07.360 --> 01:05:07.480 I'm in France and I just know the time in 01:05:10.240 --> 01:05:10.740 [Speaker 1]: you are. Oh, okay, got it. 01:05:12.180 --> 01:05:12.680 Sorry, I thought you were, 01:05:15.020 --> 01:05:15.520 [Speaker 0]: London. All right, bye-bye Bob. 01:05:15.860 --> 01:05:16.360 [Speaker 1]: take care. Bye. 01:05:45.080 --> 01:05:45.580 [Speaker 0]: Silence. 01:06:00.060 --> 01:06:00.560 You 01:07:00.180 --> 01:07:00.680 [Speaker 1]: 311. 01:08:15.060 --> 01:08:15.560 [Speaker 0]: Silence. 01:10:20.580 --> 01:10:20.700 [Speaker 2]: We will read the input from yesterday and we 01:10:23.560 --> 01:10:24.060 will continue the evaluation with a different 01:10:25.380 --> 01:10:25.880 I provided in this input. 01:10:32.420 --> 01:10:32.660 So let's try to type some arbitrary value And 01:10:37.920 --> 01:10:38.100 [Speaker 0]: this value. And at the same 01:10:38.100 --> 01:10:38.380 [Speaker 2]: you see that the loop continued with time, 01:10:40.580 --> 01:10:41.080 it could easily interrupt. 01:10:45.720 --> 01:10:45.980 OK, what most annoying thing that I had 01:10:47.240 --> 01:10:47.560 previously with the usual regular 01:10:50.320 --> 01:10:50.820 implementation, then I have a quite nice 01:10:53.660 --> 01:10:54.160 Geeks API where I can build packages, 01:10:55.380 --> 01:10:55.880 systems, and other stuff. 01:10:59.640 --> 01:11:00.140 But if I evaluate this expression, 01:11:05.140 --> 01:11:05.640 I will get an error. OK. 01:11:11.500 --> 01:11:11.740 I will get an error because I don't have an 01:11:12.980 --> 01:11:13.480 appropriate environment. 01:11:16.640 --> 01:11:16.800 But what I can do, I can connect to the 01:11:22.360 --> 01:11:22.660 remote label by creating a server with 01:11:25.440 --> 01:11:25.920 xlabelListen command and connecting to it 01:11:27.100 --> 01:11:27.600 with etherconnect command. 01:11:28.580 --> 01:11:28.740 And now I 01:11:29.540 --> 01:11:30.040 [Speaker 0]: can emulate this expression. 01:11:32.780 --> 01:11:33.280 Right? Wow. Right. Whoa. 01:11:39.800 --> 01:11:40.300 Okay. 01:11:46.240 --> 01:11:46.740 [Speaker 2]: It actually doesn't matter for my example. 01:11:51.820 --> 01:11:52.320 I will explain how it doesn't work easily. 01:11:54.940 --> 01:11:55.400 This is a long running process which prints 01:11:57.980 --> 01:11:58.280 something and it can take up to a few 01:12:00.980 --> 01:12:01.160 minutes. And for the whole few minutes I 01:12:04.960 --> 01:12:05.440 don't see any results the same as with this 01:12:07.760 --> 01:12:08.000 infinite loop, which brings the STD out, 01:12:09.960 --> 01:12:10.460 but I don't see anything interactive. 01:12:15.720 --> 01:12:16.120 And with array, I can run the evaluation of 01:12:22.120 --> 01:12:22.620 the same expression. And you will see 01:12:27.040 --> 01:12:27.440 instantly that STTR output is presented here 01:12:29.060 --> 01:12:29.560 in slightly yellowish color. 01:12:32.200 --> 01:12:32.560 And I can interrupt the evaluation if I don't 01:12:35.080 --> 01:12:35.580 want to wait until it's finished. 01:12:39.560 --> 01:12:39.920 And just after that, I can evaluate another 01:12:48.340 --> 01:12:48.840 [Speaker 0]: that's 01:12:54.520 --> 01:12:55.020 [Speaker 2]: value. So cool. And let's see 1 more thing. 01:12:56.320 --> 01:12:56.820 We have an infinite loop. 01:12:59.060 --> 01:12:59.560 And we have some completion here. 01:13:00.700 --> 01:13:01.200 And completion still works. 01:13:05.740 --> 01:13:05.900 Very nice. While the infinite loop is 01:13:12.160 --> 01:13:12.440 [Speaker 0]: OK. Actually, it took 01:13:15.060 --> 01:13:15.560 [Speaker 2]: running. me around 2 months of full-time work 01:13:19.540 --> 01:13:19.740 under my own savings. And you can support and 01:13:22.800 --> 01:13:23.040 help to the project using WebIn Collective or 01:13:24.160 --> 01:13:24.660 by contributing on SourceHub. 01:13:30.180 --> 01:13:30.420 The future steps for the project includes an 01:13:32.980 --> 01:13:33.120 experimental workflow where you have a 01:13:35.580 --> 01:13:36.060 multiple simultaneous evaluation in different 01:13:37.060 --> 01:13:37.560 contexts. For example, 01:13:40.640 --> 01:13:41.140 you have fibers, you have goblins, 01:13:45.720 --> 01:13:46.000 you have some HTTP server or some other 01:13:48.340 --> 01:13:48.840 thing, and you want to run all of them 01:13:54.140 --> 01:13:54.640 independently in slightly isolated sessions, 01:13:59.280 --> 01:13:59.540 and you want to have ability to still 01:14:00.320 --> 01:14:00.720 interact with them. For example, 01:14:03.340 --> 01:14:03.800 if they require standard input or something 01:14:07.540 --> 01:14:08.040 else you want to be able to provide. 01:14:12.040 --> 01:14:12.320 You want to see the STD out of those 01:14:13.780 --> 01:14:14.280 long-running processors and so on. 01:14:19.780 --> 01:14:20.280 The second thing is 3D integration for better 01:14:22.000 --> 01:14:22.500 syntax highlighting, code navigation, 01:14:26.680 --> 01:14:27.180 and other features. And after that, 01:14:30.140 --> 01:14:30.640 probably we will do a full-fledged debugger 01:14:35.760 --> 01:14:36.020 so you can jump expressions 1 by 1 and see 01:14:39.380 --> 01:14:39.880 the results and see some intermediate values 01:14:41.880 --> 01:14:42.380 during the evaluation. 01:14:44.960 --> 01:14:45.020 And it's very possible because nrecl is a 01:14:46.760 --> 01:14:46.960 very extensible protocol and you can 01:14:49.480 --> 01:14:49.980 implement whatever you want on top of it. 01:14:55.380 --> 01:14:55.860 I will answer 2 probably very frequent 01:14:57.660 --> 01:14:58.000 questions. Does it support other Scheme 01:15:00.520 --> 01:15:01.020 implementations? At the moment, 01:15:04.200 --> 01:15:04.360 it doesn't. But the Scheme implementation is 01:15:07.340 --> 01:15:07.840 not restricted. You have a server which 01:15:09.520 --> 01:15:09.920 implemented in your language, 01:15:10.640 --> 01:15:11.140 and you have a client, 01:15:16.320 --> 01:15:16.620 in our case, Array, which communicates with 01:15:19.860 --> 01:15:20.280 this protocol. So if you implement an Ripple 01:15:21.300 --> 01:15:21.800 server in a different language, 01:15:25.460 --> 01:15:25.840 it should work with already implemented Array 01:15:32.180 --> 01:15:32.500 client. And is it possible to use the same 01:15:34.200 --> 01:15:34.640 functionality in other text editors, 01:15:35.920 --> 01:15:36.340 for example, in VS Code, 01:15:41.200 --> 01:15:41.420 Vim, whatever, yes, it's possible and the 01:15:43.860 --> 01:15:44.240 case is similar here. You have already 01:15:46.920 --> 01:15:47.220 implemented an EnableServer and you can write 01:15:50.500 --> 01:15:51.000 your own and it will work. 01:15:55.020 --> 01:15:55.260 I would like to thank the authors and 01:15:57.260 --> 01:15:57.760 maintainers and contributors of Kyle, 01:15:59.200 --> 01:15:59.700 Geyser, Cider, Closure, 01:16:03.260 --> 01:16:03.760 and Emacs, and all other people who somehow 01:16:07.360 --> 01:16:07.860 related to the work on those projects 01:16:10.240 --> 01:16:10.740 involved in this talk. 01:16:13.320 --> 01:16:13.480 And I hope the scheme programming will be 01:16:16.320 --> 01:16:16.820 enjoyable. If you want to contact me, 01:16:19.600 --> 01:16:19.900 join TrojanRC channel at RepairerChat or drop 01:16:21.820 --> 01:16:22.260 me a message via email or feed the words 01:16:26.600 --> 01:16:26.820 using Andrew at TrojanHackle and I will see 01:16:28.680 --> 01:16:29.180 you in a bit in Kuwait session. 01:16:57.220 --> 01:16:57.440 [Speaker 3]: Hey folks. So this was a great talk by Andrew 01:16:58.860 --> 01:16:59.340 Tropan. Unfortunately, 01:17:02.280 --> 01:17:02.780 Andrew isn't around just yet. 01:17:04.480 --> 01:17:04.680 We are still waiting for him if he does show 01:17:08.180 --> 01:17:08.680 up but in the meantime please do feel free to 01:17:11.480 --> 01:17:11.980 continue posting your questions on the path 01:17:14.580 --> 01:17:15.080 and if Andrew does show up here of course 01:17:17.340 --> 01:17:17.640 We'll take them otherwise we will forward 01:17:19.700 --> 01:17:19.920 them to Andrew so that he could answer them 01:17:21.360 --> 01:17:21.860 after the conference. Thank you 01:17:45.060 --> 01:17:45.560 [Speaker 0]: You 01:18:00.080 --> 01:18:00.580 Silence. 01:18:15.060 --> 01:18:15.560 Silence. Silence. 01:19:07.760 --> 01:19:08.260 [Speaker 3]: I see 2 questions on the panel already. 01:19:14.280 --> 01:19:14.600 Let's see. 1 asking how much Android uses 01:19:17.720 --> 01:19:18.040 these repos remotely or versus on their 01:19:20.640 --> 01:19:20.800 desktop. And now they're asking if this can 01:19:22.760 --> 01:19:23.260 be integrated with EGLOT. 01:19:26.400 --> 01:19:26.580 And I will note that it is very cool that 01:19:28.200 --> 01:19:28.700 this year we've had so many talks on repos. 01:19:32.320 --> 01:19:32.680 Just goes to show how powerful Emacs is and 01:19:34.540 --> 01:19:34.640 just how much or how far you can push it and 01:19:44.760 --> 01:19:45.020 how much you can do So see someone asking on 01:19:49.660 --> 01:19:50.160 IRC If or how many people use Given Geeks 01:19:52.960 --> 01:19:53.460 Since we are talking about scheme, 01:19:56.980 --> 01:19:57.260 GivenGeeks is a great platform slash 01:20:01.520 --> 01:20:01.700 operating system or distro for for your 01:20:03.480 --> 01:20:03.980 desktops but also for servers and such. 01:20:04.920 --> 01:20:05.380 They do some impressive, 01:20:09.400 --> 01:20:09.900 amazing work. And it's pretty much all done 01:20:10.900 --> 01:20:11.400 in the Google Cloud schema. 01:20:13.120 --> 01:20:13.620 So very cool stuff. 01:20:55.520 --> 01:20:56.020 [Speaker 0]: Silence. Silence. 01:21:11.040 --> 01:21:11.540 Silence. 01:21:30.060 --> 01:21:30.560 You 01:22:11.520 --> 01:22:11.680 [Speaker 3]: I see another interesting question on the 01:22:15.020 --> 01:22:15.520 pad. How hard is it to add support for 01:22:16.560 --> 01:22:17.060 something relevant in Guile? 01:22:19.600 --> 01:22:19.760 And if it makes sense to contribute at this 01:22:20.500 --> 01:22:21.000 early stage of development. 01:22:23.520 --> 01:22:23.860 They said that they've written several 01:22:25.080 --> 01:22:25.440 packages for chicken skin before, 01:22:26.960 --> 01:22:27.460 and they would like to try this 1 as well. 01:23:00.260 --> 01:23:00.760 [Speaker 0]: You you 01:23:46.380 --> 01:23:46.880 [Speaker 3]: Okay. 01:24:17.980 --> 01:24:18.480 I guess since Andrew isn't still here, 01:24:20.740 --> 01:24:21.100 and there was some chatter about Giddu Geeks 01:24:23.960 --> 01:24:24.460 in the chat, maybe it might be nice for me to 01:24:26.980 --> 01:24:27.100 share my screen and plug Giddu Geeks for a 01:24:29.600 --> 01:24:29.700 little bit and introduce it, 01:24:32.420 --> 01:24:32.600 or at least show its website to folks who may 01:24:34.400 --> 01:24:34.600 not have seen it yet. So I'm going to try and 01:24:35.000 --> 01:24:35.500 do that now. 01:25:11.320 --> 01:25:11.820 OK, let's see if this works. 01:25:25.080 --> 01:25:25.580 OK, so this is GnuGeeks' website. 01:25:26.580 --> 01:25:27.080 You can go to geeks.gnu.org 01:25:30.320 --> 01:25:30.800 and they introduce it at the top. 01:25:35.020 --> 01:25:35.520 So it's a wholly free operating system or 01:25:38.600 --> 01:25:38.780 distribution of Gini Linux Meaning that it 01:25:41.680 --> 01:25:41.920 only has free software packaged and no 01:25:44.220 --> 01:25:44.440 non-free packages. So it is endorsed by the 01:25:47.900 --> 01:25:48.040 FSF on the Gini project As someone said in 01:25:49.320 --> 01:25:49.820 the chat, it's kind of like Nix, 01:25:52.960 --> 01:25:53.460 but instead built on GigaGallop scheme. 01:25:56.880 --> 01:25:57.380 It has transactional upgrades and rollbacks, 01:26:01.780 --> 01:26:01.940 so if you do upgrade your system and let's 01:26:02.720 --> 01:26:02.980 say in the middle of it, 01:26:04.740 --> 01:26:05.240 your hardware fails or your power goes out, 01:26:08.080 --> 01:26:08.240 the likelihood of things being corrupted is 01:26:10.400 --> 01:26:10.900 very low because the upgrade is essentially 01:26:13.220 --> 01:26:13.720 prepared like in the background. 01:26:15.660 --> 01:26:16.160 And then pretty much atomically, 01:26:18.340 --> 01:26:18.840 the system is switched to it. 01:26:22.840 --> 01:26:23.080 And also if there is some kind of Sorry, 01:26:23.940 --> 01:26:24.440 I'm losing my voice here. 01:26:26.320 --> 01:26:26.660 If there is some kind of issue that makes 01:26:27.340 --> 01:26:27.840 your system unbootable, 01:26:31.100 --> 01:26:31.460 you could always go back to booting the 01:26:34.440 --> 01:26:34.640 previously, the previous revision of your 01:26:37.200 --> 01:26:37.360 system when you restart in the 01:26:47.360 --> 01:26:47.800 GrubBootLoader. So they have a nice blog 01:26:50.280 --> 01:26:50.500 where they regularly post updates and what's 01:26:52.360 --> 01:26:52.540 new in the project. You can go check that 01:26:57.160 --> 01:26:57.660 out. They also have a packages archive where 01:27:00.480 --> 01:27:00.660 you can see a list of all the software that 01:27:02.380 --> 01:27:02.880 has been packaged for Pinookies. 01:27:05.140 --> 01:27:05.640 It is an impressive list. 01:28:44.460 --> 01:28:44.960 [Speaker 0]: You 01:30:30.060 --> 01:30:30.560 Silence. 01:32:40.080 --> 01:32:40.580 And obviously you can run kines in it. 01:32:50.640 --> 01:32:51.140 There is mouse support. 01:33:02.580 --> 01:33:03.080 And there is true color support, 01:33:08.040 --> 01:33:08.180 so you can show any color in a tagline as 01:33:09.900 --> 01:33:10.400 long as your main display supports it. 01:33:17.660 --> 01:33:18.160 And then there is shell integration. 01:33:20.740 --> 01:33:21.240 For example, directory tracking. 01:33:28.697 --> 01:33:29.197 Like if I can switch to some other directory 01:33:31.420 --> 01:33:31.920 and Thank you.