WEBVTT 00:00:53.489 --> 00:00:53.989 [Speaker 0]: All right. I have unmuted. 00:00:59.860 --> 00:01:00.180 It's been a while since I've actually done an 00:01:05.360 --> 00:01:05.860 actual presentation. Hi. 00:01:08.979 --> 00:01:09.380 Okay. I'm going to deafen myself and mumble 00:01:12.540 --> 00:01:13.040 so that I don't get distracted by backstage 00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:16.900 chatter. Hello, everyone! Okay, 00:01:17.980 --> 00:01:18.480 so where are we? Questions, 00:01:20.800 --> 00:01:21.300 questions, questions. Okay, 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:23.600 how easy would it be for someone else to 00:01:25.960 --> 00:01:26.120 reuse the Emacs conf strips and config to do 00:01:29.380 --> 00:01:29.640 a conf of their own? Like everything else, 00:01:32.220 --> 00:01:32.560 I have no idea if things actually work until 00:01:35.140 --> 00:01:35.600 somebody does it for, you know, 00:01:37.500 --> 00:01:37.680 to get everything to run on a computer that 00:01:40.080 --> 00:01:40.200 isn't my computer and with assumptions that 00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:41.120 aren't my assumptions. 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:43.340 So, I have no idea. But optimistically, 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:46.480 I have put most of the EmacsConf things, 00:01:48.760 --> 00:01:49.200 like EmacsConf, the name of the conference 00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:50.620 and things like that in variables. 00:01:53.160 --> 00:01:53.320 So if theoretically someone were to run an 00:01:56.040 --> 00:01:56.320 org mode conference or something like that, 00:01:58.440 --> 00:01:58.940 it might be possible to reuse all this code. 00:02:01.960 --> 00:02:02.080 We'll see. I don't know if it's going to be 00:02:03.480 --> 00:02:03.560 easy. I don't even know if it's going to be 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:05.260 possible, but it might be fun to try. 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:10.199 What tools would I like to exist in Emacs 00:02:11.720 --> 00:02:12.220 land to help with preparing the conference 00:02:15.880 --> 00:02:16.320 next time? Well, I've already been thinking 00:02:18.420 --> 00:02:18.600 about adjustments that I want to make to 00:02:21.220 --> 00:02:21.720 sub-eds so that the audio synchronization 00:02:24.340 --> 00:02:24.560 issues that we sometimes have with FFmpeg can 00:02:26.600 --> 00:02:27.040 be something that I can flag and maybe fix 00:02:29.060 --> 00:02:29.560 even while I'm watching a video. 00:02:32.960 --> 00:02:33.340 But also as much as possible, 00:02:36.820 --> 00:02:37.020 I like to leave the actual FFMPEG audio and 00:02:39.220 --> 00:02:39.440 visual tinkering with to other people like 00:02:41.320 --> 00:02:41.520 Leo, whose patience is slightly more than 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:45.180 mine, because audio is, 00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:47.260 I still don't have the patience to sit for 00:02:48.620 --> 00:02:48.900 it. You can tell I talk really, 00:02:50.540 --> 00:02:50.860 really quickly. I'm still trying to squeeze 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:53.160 everything into however little focus time I 00:02:56.140 --> 00:02:56.280 actually have. So it would be kind of nice to 00:03:00.820 --> 00:03:01.320 use that. Emacs is already doing quite a ton 00:03:04.740 --> 00:03:04.900 and stuffing more multimedia processing and 00:03:06.180 --> 00:03:06.300 other fun things into it might be 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:07.260 interesting. Who knows? 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:09.440 Oh, the other thing that I would really love 00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:12.720 to have that people always ask for is a way 00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:15.860 from Emacs to interact with the Etherpad. 00:03:18.900 --> 00:03:19.340 The Etherpad API, it seems very granular. 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:21.180 Like, you can set the HTML of a pad, 00:03:22.920 --> 00:03:23.100 but you can't actually just append stuff to 00:03:24.640 --> 00:03:24.960 it. And I was trying to get something that 00:03:26.820 --> 00:03:26.980 could take questions from IRC and 00:03:28.480 --> 00:03:28.980 automatically push them into the pad, 00:03:30.920 --> 00:03:31.400 even from an ERC bot or whatever, 00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:34.900 but no go. If someone were to figure out some 00:03:38.860 --> 00:03:39.160 CRDT thing where we can collaboratively edit 00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:41.500 the document, that I think is the number 1 00:03:42.720 --> 00:03:43.140 request that people always have around 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:46.760 EmacsConf. That would be really cool to do 00:03:48.900 --> 00:03:49.320 more of the conference itself from within 00:03:53.240 --> 00:03:53.740 Emacs. I don't know if actually, 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:55.860 well, we have an org file now that launches 00:03:59.440 --> 00:03:59.940 the MPV from Emacs. But if you want to have 00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:02.300 an ex-widget or something else watching the 00:04:03.740 --> 00:04:04.240 conference from within Emacs itself. 00:04:05.640 --> 00:04:06.140 I think that will also be really cool. 00:04:09.480 --> 00:04:09.980 Yes. And then other fun stuff. 00:04:12.980 --> 00:04:13.220 OK, how can speakers and viewers help make 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:15.540 preparing for next year's Emacs Conf even 00:04:16.300 --> 00:04:16.800 more fun for the organizers? 00:04:20.440 --> 00:04:20.899 Well, I love it when not only do the speakers 00:04:24.280 --> 00:04:24.780 do all that work to prepare their talk, 00:04:27.620 --> 00:04:28.040 but lately people have actually even been 00:04:29.780 --> 00:04:30.280 volunteering to caption their own talks. 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:33.740 And that's great because then they know the 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:36.500 words that they use. And if I can show them 00:04:39.140 --> 00:04:39.280 the workflow that we have so that they can do 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:42.420 it very efficiently, because there's all 00:04:44.620 --> 00:04:44.860 these wonderful things that I do now with 00:04:48.340 --> 00:04:48.580 Subweb Waveform and Aeneas for like the 00:04:49.900 --> 00:04:50.400 forced alignment so we can get timestamps 00:04:53.100 --> 00:04:53.360 from text and all these other fun things that 00:04:55.520 --> 00:04:55.680 make getting a transcript or editing the 00:04:57.380 --> 00:04:57.880 captions fun and easy. 00:05:00.780 --> 00:05:01.000 That makes it easier for not only speakers to 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:03.280 contribute captions for their own talks, 00:05:05.220 --> 00:05:05.720 but also interested volunteers who, 00:05:07.760 --> 00:05:07.920 as mentioned, get early access to all the 00:05:09.140 --> 00:05:09.640 talks and can watch them at leisure. 00:05:12.540 --> 00:05:12.800 And it's, you know, nice prick there. 00:05:13.700 --> 00:05:14.200 Definitely should try that. 00:05:19.400 --> 00:05:19.600 I do have some sample videos of how we use 00:05:21.500 --> 00:05:22.000 subed. But of course, in the process of 00:05:24.280 --> 00:05:24.780 shoving like 30 or 40 talks, 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:27.100 maybe 30 talks through it for EmacsConf, 00:05:29.440 --> 00:05:29.640 this is like the stress test season for 00:05:30.340 --> 00:05:30.760 subed, which is great, 00:05:31.880 --> 00:05:32.380 I ended up adding more features. 00:05:36.260 --> 00:05:36.500 So 1 of my big to-dos afterwards is I have to 00:05:38.300 --> 00:05:38.600 document the different workflows for things 00:05:40.260 --> 00:05:40.760 like, okay, you've got a script. 00:05:43.520 --> 00:05:43.700 You can use WDiff to get word diffs so you 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:45.760 can take the subtitles and compare them with 00:05:47.540 --> 00:05:47.720 the original script and see where the 00:05:48.880 --> 00:05:49.380 misrecognized words are. 00:05:52.960 --> 00:05:53.360 And that's great. Or you can use SubWeb 00:05:54.960 --> 00:05:55.440 Waveform to start adjusting things. 00:05:56.820 --> 00:05:57.320 Or for example, if there's a synchronization 00:06:01.320 --> 00:06:01.820 issue, I can now middle click on a subtitle 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:04.000 where I want the subtitle to actually start 00:06:06.500 --> 00:06:06.680 and then move all the subtitles to start at 00:06:09.020 --> 00:06:09.280 that point. So it's getting to be a really 00:06:10.860 --> 00:06:11.000 elaborate tool. And I definitely need to 00:06:15.220 --> 00:06:15.520 document that and stick all the blog post 00:06:17.860 --> 00:06:18.040 links into the readme so that people can find 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:20.740 this in the future. So it's very, 00:06:23.080 --> 00:06:23.320 very nifty. And the reason why we do this is 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:25.220 because, well, personally, 00:06:26.820 --> 00:06:27.160 I have a hard time sitting and watching 00:06:28.940 --> 00:06:29.080 videos. I like to be able to just jump to the 00:06:31.540 --> 00:06:31.780 interesting parts or watch it at 3 times 00:06:33.400 --> 00:06:33.900 speed, which MPV lets me do. 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:36.660 And the text makes it a lot more searchable, 00:06:38.960 --> 00:06:39.460 which is fantastic. And also because, 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:41.480 you know, if you've got all these interesting 00:06:44.220 --> 00:06:44.720 variable names and key bindings and whatever, 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:47.520 and the automatic subtitles just don't do the 00:06:49.540 --> 00:06:49.740 right thing. So it's nice that people do the 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:53.480 captioning. So, yeah, so that's 1 thing that 00:06:55.080 --> 00:06:55.380 people can help with. Captioning is always 00:06:57.160 --> 00:06:57.280 very interesting. And the other thing that 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:00.780 people can do is take the inspiration that 00:07:02.860 --> 00:07:03.340 you get from EmacsConf and from the ideas 00:07:04.640 --> 00:07:05.140 that you have when you're working with Emacs, 00:07:07.280 --> 00:07:07.780 and suggest talks for next year's EmacsConf. 00:07:09.760 --> 00:07:10.260 And it doesn't have to be a super fancy, 00:07:13.740 --> 00:07:14.060 nobody else needs to go out and do a really 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:15.420 professional-looking video. 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:17.640 Even though Howard has set the bar this you 00:07:19.640 --> 00:07:19.840 know it's pretty high you don't have to do 00:07:22.540 --> 00:07:22.660 that kind of thing it can be just you in a 00:07:24.860 --> 00:07:25.240 screen or even just a screen and you talking 00:07:27.340 --> 00:07:27.400 about this cool thing that you learned and 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:29.340 they could be a video or it could be a blog 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:31.940 post it could be something else and that 00:07:34.780 --> 00:07:35.020 those those things are fantastic because they 00:07:36.960 --> 00:07:37.200 inspire people to see what's possible with 00:07:39.440 --> 00:07:39.620 Emacs. So that's another big thing that 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:41.300 people can do to help. 00:07:44.080 --> 00:07:44.480 And then there's sharing the word about it. 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:46.840 So if you saw something that you really like, 00:07:48.760 --> 00:07:49.080 if you write a blog post about it or a tweet 00:07:51.220 --> 00:07:51.480 or a toot or whatever else you want to do, 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:52.980 you make a reaction video, 00:07:55.280 --> 00:07:55.780 that helps other people discover that stuff 00:07:57.800 --> 00:07:58.080 not just today, not just next week, 00:08:00.340 --> 00:08:00.540 but you know even later as they search for 00:08:04.640 --> 00:08:05.140 these words that as people search for ideas 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:07.760 using words that are not necessarily the ones 00:08:10.320 --> 00:08:10.560 in the video, you describing things in other 00:08:11.980 --> 00:08:12.400 ways helps with the search engine 00:08:13.500 --> 00:08:13.740 optimization, you're not really, 00:08:15.200 --> 00:08:15.700 it's just people finding stuff, 00:08:17.220 --> 00:08:17.500 which is amazing. So yes, 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:19.500 please write about the cool things that 00:08:22.840 --> 00:08:23.040 you've seen and what you'd like to tell other 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:26.280 people about. Suggesting ideas for talks. 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:30.340 Yes. Making talks. All sorts of wonderful 00:08:35.220 --> 00:08:35.380 things. OK. Could you elaborate on the 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:37.320 workflow that goes on in your mind for when 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:38.320 approaching these things? 00:08:40.260 --> 00:08:40.460 Do you start with an Emacs org solution right 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:42.340 off the bat at this point when faced with a 00:08:44.059 --> 00:08:44.340 task? Are there some conscious steps involved 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:46.460 from early ideas to automation of the kind 00:08:48.740 --> 00:08:49.080 you just showed? Mostly it starts with, 00:08:50.740 --> 00:08:51.040 okay, we got to do this thing. 00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:54.220 So I have this to-do. And sometimes, 00:08:55.860 --> 00:08:56.200 like in the week before the conference, 00:08:57.440 --> 00:08:57.720 I have to think, okay, 00:09:00.740 --> 00:09:01.000 is this a top priority thing that I can do 00:09:01.460 --> 00:09:01.960 before the conference, 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:03.980 or is it something that I can, 00:09:05.800 --> 00:09:06.160 I, I, like we can still do the conference 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:08.360 without doing so I have to just postpone it 00:09:09.860 --> 00:09:10.360 until afterwards? So some prioritization 00:09:12.160 --> 00:09:12.280 happens. But a lot of times it's like, 00:09:13.140 --> 00:09:13.320 okay, you know, like this, 00:09:14.620 --> 00:09:14.820 there's a thing that I need to do here. 00:09:15.920 --> 00:09:16.360 I don't know how to figure it out, 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:19.080 let me start an org Babble block and start 00:09:19.760 --> 00:09:20.240 sketching out something, 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:22.620 you know, custom function or whatever else, 00:09:23.980 --> 00:09:24.200 and then say okay, you know, 00:09:25.380 --> 00:09:25.760 hey, that looks kind of useful, 00:09:27.180 --> 00:09:27.600 let me see if I can generalize that, 00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:29.640 and then let me stick it into the library so 00:09:30.820 --> 00:09:31.320 that I can find it next year. 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:33.520 And that's basically how it goes. 00:09:35.500 --> 00:09:36.000 It just goes, it just like, 00:09:37.540 --> 00:09:38.040 I have a thing that I need to do. 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:40.280 If it's, if I'm going to do it more than 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:42.720 once, or actually even if I'm going to do it, 00:09:44.640 --> 00:09:44.800 you know, once I tried to automate it just so 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:46.500 that I can understand it and, 00:09:47.700 --> 00:09:48.100 and then I can, I can, 00:09:50.280 --> 00:09:50.440 I can squeeze it into like the 15 minutes I 00:09:54.140 --> 00:09:54.280 actually have and I can pause and I can pick 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:56.380 it up again and the code is still there and 00:09:57.160 --> 00:09:57.660 my notes are still there? 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:00.760 And then every little bit of the, 00:10:03.540 --> 00:10:04.040 every little step like that builds up. 00:10:05.740 --> 00:10:06.100 So I can write a short function today, 00:10:07.680 --> 00:10:07.820 and then tomorrow when the kid was asleep, 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:09.740 I can write a little bit more of that. 00:10:11.160 --> 00:10:11.660 And so it just goes on from there. 00:10:14.260 --> 00:10:14.760 And then I just stuff that all in there. 00:10:17.660 --> 00:10:17.900 How well does this approach allow for other 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:20.140 organisers to do individual customisations to 00:10:21.500 --> 00:10:21.640 their liking while still being able to 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:22.620 collaborate effectively? 00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:26.460 We've actually split things up fairly neatly 00:10:28.020 --> 00:10:28.260 in the sense that for this year, 00:10:30.620 --> 00:10:30.940 for example, most everyone else was super 00:10:34.400 --> 00:10:34.900 busy, so I did all the heavy lifting up until 00:10:37.420 --> 00:10:37.540 people were available and then they jumped in 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:38.740 with the audio normalization. 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:39.840 Thank you very much, Leo, 00:10:41.280 --> 00:10:41.780 for doing all of that stuff and the hosting 00:10:42.840 --> 00:10:43.340 and all the other things. 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:46.040 So I tend to do most of the Emacs list 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:48.360 fiddling with and the shell scripting and 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:50.460 stuff like that, aside from the FFmpeg 00:10:53.100 --> 00:10:53.520 incantations, which are too arcane for me to 00:10:56.860 --> 00:10:57.040 even think about. And then in the course of 00:10:57.980 --> 00:10:58.180 watching me deal with like, 00:10:59.440 --> 00:10:59.640 oh, no, this video is not playing. 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:01.280 And then they see the commands that I'm 00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:04.640 using, like play and then, 00:11:05.740 --> 00:11:06.240 you know, play a world, 00:11:08.760 --> 00:11:08.920 which is the ideas of the talk that we were 00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:10.940 having a hard time with or MPD or whatever. 00:11:13.520 --> 00:11:13.740 Then the other organizers kind of just pick 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:15.480 that up by osmosis, because We didn't even 00:11:17.160 --> 00:11:17.360 have time to do dry runs for training this 00:11:20.540 --> 00:11:20.740 year. So it's just there's not much 00:11:22.500 --> 00:11:22.660 collaboration in the sense that I'm just 00:11:24.400 --> 00:11:24.740 basically saying, OK, these are the scripts 00:11:25.760 --> 00:11:26.260 that I'm going to write for myself. 00:11:28.980 --> 00:11:29.480 And you all figure out how to work with that. 00:11:34.780 --> 00:11:35.280 What was the hardest problem you encountered 00:11:37.040 --> 00:11:37.180 in organizing or running the conference this 00:11:38.540 --> 00:11:39.040 year and how do you deal with it? 00:11:40.680 --> 00:11:40.840 Oh, the constant, constant problem with 00:11:43.340 --> 00:11:43.820 e-mails. There's so many amazing ideas. 00:11:45.660 --> 00:11:46.160 I want to fit into the time. 00:11:46.920 --> 00:11:47.420 And then afterwards, like, 00:11:49.740 --> 00:11:49.960 Sasha, do not mess with production the day 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:50.860 before the conference. 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:52.680 You're going to save that for after the 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:54.920 conference, right? So that's the hardest 00:11:56.140 --> 00:11:56.420 part, is just saying, OK, 00:11:58.620 --> 00:11:58.780 yes, that's an idea. I'm going to put that in 00:12:01.400 --> 00:12:01.680 the inbox. We're going to maybe get to that 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:03.620 next year. But right now, 00:12:05.400 --> 00:12:05.560 these are the things that I need to do in 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:07.700 order to get the conference off the ground 00:12:14.820 --> 00:12:15.320 reasonably in a reasonable amount of time. 00:12:17.140 --> 00:12:17.640 So earlier in the conference, 00:12:19.240 --> 00:12:19.740 then I can be like, OK, 00:12:21.900 --> 00:12:22.360 what if we do this? What if we run everything 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:24.640 off a crontab instead of using Emacs tramp 00:12:25.680 --> 00:12:26.180 timers? Wouldn't that be great? 00:12:28.380 --> 00:12:28.840 And then I can explore all those crazy ideas. 00:12:30.440 --> 00:12:30.720 But then as we get closer and closer to date, 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:32.720 I'm like, okay, fine. I'm going to like just 00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:34.700 capture the idea and deal with it later. 00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:36.580 So that's really, really hard for me. 00:12:39.520 --> 00:12:39.800 Year to your growth in attendance and after 00:12:40.760 --> 00:12:41.260 the conference video watching. 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:46.740 The growth, well, first thing, 00:12:51.110 --> 00:12:51.610 there is like absolute growth in the kind of 00:12:53.520 --> 00:12:53.720 the quantity of things that people are 00:12:56.820 --> 00:12:57.180 sharing. I have a blog post about this that 00:12:59.440 --> 00:12:59.820 talks about a number of minutes of talks, 00:13:02.160 --> 00:13:02.360 and it's going up. Last year, 00:13:03.740 --> 00:13:03.960 we did 2 tracks because I couldn't fit 00:13:05.460 --> 00:13:05.720 everything in 1 day. And this year, 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:07.240 we did 2 tracks, but even then, 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:08.360 everything was kind of squished, 00:13:09.880 --> 00:13:10.040 and I was trying to find space in the 00:13:11.940 --> 00:13:12.160 schedule. And if you make it so that next 00:13:13.500 --> 00:13:14.000 year, we have to figure out 3 tracks, 00:13:15.760 --> 00:13:16.000 I think We have another host now, 00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:17.340 so it might be doable, 00:13:19.540 --> 00:13:19.820 which is great. Who knows? 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:23.860 We'll see. And the other interesting thing 00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:25.520 that I'm seeing in terms of growth is that 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:27.720 people are starting to refer to the talks 00:13:29.800 --> 00:13:30.300 from previous conferences that inspired them. 00:13:32.980 --> 00:13:33.220 So the evil plan is working in that it is 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:35.160 getting people to get cool stuff out of their 00:13:37.020 --> 00:13:37.200 heads and into videos that have like 00:13:39.560 --> 00:13:39.720 searchable transcripts and that people can 00:13:41.980 --> 00:13:42.280 refer to as for inspiration and for showing 00:13:42.980 --> 00:13:43.200 other people, hey, look, 00:13:44.060 --> 00:13:44.560 this is what it can do. 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:46.860 So that is fantastic growth. 00:13:49.400 --> 00:13:49.540 The actual numbers, I'm intense to look at 00:13:51.160 --> 00:13:51.660 the number of simultaneous viewers. 00:13:53.860 --> 00:13:53.980 And every so often, it's kind of nice to go 00:13:55.960 --> 00:13:56.360 through the YouTube stats or whatever. 00:13:57.560 --> 00:13:57.980 But that's not so much as a, 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:01.320 like, I don't really keep that in mind as 00:14:05.060 --> 00:14:05.560 much, just because as long as people are 00:14:07.660 --> 00:14:07.880 connecting to the ideas and getting stuff out 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:13.440 there and being inspired to think around 00:14:16.220 --> 00:14:16.720 more, then it's doing the thing. 00:14:21.300 --> 00:14:21.460 Cognizant is working. So where are we now for 00:14:22.640 --> 00:14:23.140 questions? Ooh, I can actually, 00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:25.820 I have ERC here. I can find eventually. 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:28.700 1 of my screens has Dev in it. 00:14:30.780 --> 00:14:31.260 Okay, here we are. What are the other 00:14:34.900 --> 00:14:35.400 questions? Probably, Probably an IRC. 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:39.520 Where's IRC? Dove, dove, 00:14:45.700 --> 00:14:46.200 dove. I did try to record things more slowly, 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:47.520 and I tried several times, 00:14:49.920 --> 00:14:50.020 but I really just speak very quickly when I 00:14:53.300 --> 00:14:53.480 get excited and Emacs is very fun so it is 00:14:59.960 --> 00:15:00.460 tough oh yes okay so 1 in once yes automated 00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:04.540 present workflows oh yeah okay so where are 00:15:05.660 --> 00:15:05.840 we now for time? Oh look, 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:07.900 it's 4.30, should we do our closing remarks 00:15:09.280 --> 00:15:09.440 or like how are things going over in the 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:12.340 other stream? I should find out. 00:15:14.760 --> 00:15:14.860 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, I've been keeping a close eye on the 00:15:16.400 --> 00:15:16.900 other 1, but yeah, I believe that- 00:15:19.800 --> 00:15:20.300 [Speaker 0]: Yay, look at that, good timing. 00:15:22.880 --> 00:15:23.300 Okay, I have managed to zoom through the 00:15:26.660 --> 00:15:26.980 questions and we can switch over to the 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:31.740 closing remarks how do we do this yes okay 00:15:35.060 --> 00:15:35.400 okay we're gonna oh wait people okay people 00:15:37.580 --> 00:15:37.760 who wanted to ask questions how do you want 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:39.360 to do this? Because there are a lot of people 00:15:42.040 --> 00:15:42.240 in this 1 here too. You want to go to the 00:15:48.820 --> 00:15:49.320 other 1? 0 no, they aren't done yet. 00:15:51.180 --> 00:15:51.600 Sorry, I forgot to turn on the con tab 00:15:52.500 --> 00:15:53.000 because of course I got excited. 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:55.200 Okay, so Jacob is still answering questions, 00:15:56.940 --> 00:15:57.440 which means I get to still answer questions. 00:15:59.880 --> 00:16:00.060 Now I'll try to be quiet and let people in 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:02.220 the BBB room speak up if we want to. 00:16:12.040 --> 00:16:12.540 Okay that means 00:16:13.585 --> 00:16:13.650 [Speaker 3]: are going to hear. 00:16:13.715 --> 00:16:13.780 [Speaker 1]: Some more 00:16:15.660 --> 00:16:16.100 [Speaker 2]: people in the chat ideas I had on the Emacs 00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:18.000 conferences you could have like a little 00:16:21.300 --> 00:16:21.660 Emacs starter config just for like the Emacs 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:27.040 conference where you have emms playlist and 00:16:29.540 --> 00:16:29.780 IRC help cheer function to help get you into 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:35.320 IRC into ERC and then the to-do states that I 00:16:36.060 --> 00:16:36.560 was talking about before. 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:40.380 So you can say, I'm watching this 1, 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:41.480 I want to re-watch this 1, 00:16:42.780 --> 00:16:43.080 but I'm going to skip it because I'm watching 00:16:52.820 --> 00:16:53.220 something else. I used the HyperBowl package 00:16:55.680 --> 00:16:55.860 to go straight to the web pages to all the 00:16:59.600 --> 00:16:59.860 either pads but you can also have some quick 00:17:04.540 --> 00:17:04.960 functions to go into a CRDT buffer hosted 00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:07.900 buffer, where all the org mode Etherpad 00:17:14.220 --> 00:17:14.440 documents would be. And then that would get 00:17:15.280 --> 00:17:15.780 everybody using Emacs, 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:17.839 and then they could all be chatting with each 00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:23.980 other with CRDT, with controlling Emacs. 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:25.680 I don't know how the sub stuff, 00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:27.339 I don't know if you can get the sub stuff in 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:30.060 there working, but yeah, 00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:33.160 It could be a good way of getting it all 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:35.420 wrapped up together. And also, 00:17:38.040 --> 00:17:38.400 Mkron, if you ever looked at that versus 00:17:40.800 --> 00:17:41.300 Kron, Mkron is configured in Elisp. 00:17:43.320 --> 00:17:43.740 Then you can also write some custom functions 00:17:44.620 --> 00:17:45.120 in the middle of your Kron. 00:17:46.800 --> 00:17:47.280 So maybe you could make some like conditional 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:49.460 things where you can start or stop it. 00:17:56.320 --> 00:17:56.440 And like 1 of the differences is if your 00:17:58.860 --> 00:17:59.100 computer reboots, it can start up and say, 00:18:01.780 --> 00:18:02.160 oh, I'm supposed to run this cron job at this 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:05.200 time and then just Do the correct thing 00:18:08.100 --> 00:18:08.600 rather than losing the state Randomly because 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:10.940 your computer lost power 00:18:15.700 --> 00:18:15.900 [Speaker 0]: Thanks for those recommendations I will add 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:18.140 mcron to my list of things to check out. 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:24.020 And yeah, we finally remembered to publish 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:25.400 all those schedules as org, 00:18:27.540 --> 00:18:27.840 and I decided to just spam all the time zones 00:18:28.520 --> 00:18:29.020 with them, which was fantastic. 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:30.620 And other people have mentioned that this is 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:32.960 useful. We get to figure out how to use this 00:18:35.740 --> 00:18:35.900 to teach people more about what you can do 00:18:36.620 --> 00:18:37.120 with org. As you mentioned, 00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:41.280 encouraging them to tag the stuff with things 00:18:43.360 --> 00:18:43.860 that they want to attend gives us the ability 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:46.240 to set up an agenda view for them that has 00:18:47.840 --> 00:18:48.340 the talks that are tagged with those tags. 00:18:48.580 --> 00:18:48.600 [Speaker 3]: So I 00:18:49.280 --> 00:18:49.780 [Speaker 0]: was like, okay, let's, 00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:54.340 let's teach org mode and lisp in the process 00:18:58.120 --> 00:18:58.380 of doing things. Okay, 00:19:00.860 --> 00:19:01.000 there was a question about any chance of an 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:03.220 in person EmacsConf again someday. 00:19:05.580 --> 00:19:06.000 And I was actually at the very first EMAX 00:19:11.040 --> 00:19:11.400 Conf, which was 2013 and organized in London 00:19:12.980 --> 00:19:13.080 to take advantage of the fact that I had a 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:16.160 business shift there. It was fantastic being 00:19:18.760 --> 00:19:19.120 in a room with 100 other people who are all 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:20.460 really interested in Emacs, 00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:23.560 but I'm not traveling like any time for the 00:19:25.560 --> 00:19:25.680 foreseeable future, so if other people are 00:19:27.500 --> 00:19:27.800 interested in organizing something like that, 00:19:29.260 --> 00:19:29.760 I am totally happy to spread the word. 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:31.860 It doesn't fit with my current lifestyle, 00:19:32.860 --> 00:19:33.360 but it might fit somebody's. 00:19:37.080 --> 00:19:37.580 I don't know. We're still just here. 00:19:38.800 --> 00:19:39.300 And I like the virtual conference. 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:42.120 I really like the fact that we can bring 00:19:43.780 --> 00:19:44.280 together people from all over the world. 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:46.840 I can take a look at my schedule with all the 00:19:47.540 --> 00:19:47.720 time constraints. Okay, 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:49.300 I need to put this person in the morning 00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:50.800 because they're in Australia and I need to 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:52.360 put this person in the afternoon because 00:19:56.120 --> 00:19:56.360 they're from Vancouver or from somewhere else 00:19:58.020 --> 00:19:58.520 in the Pacific time zone. 00:20:01.420 --> 00:20:01.920 And it's just this breadth of people. 00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:04.300 But the other thing that I would love for 00:20:06.220 --> 00:20:06.420 people to start thinking about is if we could 00:20:08.300 --> 00:20:08.560 have a virtual conference in other time 00:20:11.320 --> 00:20:11.580 zones, so that's easier for people in Asia 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:13.220 Pacific or Europe to attend. 00:20:16.080 --> 00:20:16.580 And as we're getting the hang of this, 00:20:17.840 --> 00:20:18.080 this crontab-based thing, 00:20:20.140 --> 00:20:20.320 I think we might almost be at the point where 00:20:22.320 --> 00:20:22.540 I can set it up to run even when I'm 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:25.080 sleeping. And then other people can figure 00:20:26.120 --> 00:20:26.520 out, you know, the exception handling, 00:20:27.780 --> 00:20:27.900 oh, you know, this talk needs to be 00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:30.780 restarted. Okay, just play it again and scrub 00:20:31.800 --> 00:20:32.300 around to find the right part, 00:20:34.500 --> 00:20:35.000 which means we could have replays, 00:20:37.060 --> 00:20:37.560 or we can have like the Asia Pacific 00:20:39.140 --> 00:20:39.440 Alternate Event that we had the other time 00:20:45.600 --> 00:20:45.780 where some speakers came back online and did 00:20:48.840 --> 00:20:49.040 another Q&A session just for that kind of 00:20:51.360 --> 00:20:51.660 event. So those are other cool, 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:53.460 fun things that would love to be, 00:20:57.700 --> 00:20:58.140 would be great. Satellite events, 00:20:59.480 --> 00:20:59.980 someone mentioned in the etherpad. 00:21:03.280 --> 00:21:03.520 Some people have been organizing these, 00:21:05.020 --> 00:21:05.280 which are great. Basically a bunch of people 00:21:07.800 --> 00:21:08.080 get together in a room or 2 rooms now because 00:21:10.320 --> 00:21:10.820 of the tracks and watch Emacs Conf together. 00:21:12.940 --> 00:21:13.140 So if you have a physical meetup or if you'd 00:21:15.360 --> 00:21:15.760 like to start 1, It's basically, 00:21:17.860 --> 00:21:17.960 you know, do this, maybe have stickers if you 00:21:19.900 --> 00:21:20.200 have stickers. You know, 00:21:22.540 --> 00:21:22.800 it's just have everyone come over and hang 00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:24.680 out and meet people. I don't know. 00:21:27.540 --> 00:21:27.660 It's a thing. Specifically how to do it, 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:29.700 I have no idea how to organize these things. 00:21:32.080 --> 00:21:32.580 But Alain does. So talk to him. 00:21:35.280 --> 00:21:35.580 [Speaker 2]: Another way of adding multiple tracks is 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:38.140 changing it to doing it like 2 times a year, 00:21:39.760 --> 00:21:40.260 in max confidence. 00:21:44.340 --> 00:21:44.640 [Speaker 0]: Yeah, yeah, people have mentioned something 00:21:50.080 --> 00:21:50.320 like that. Or the fact that org often has 00:21:51.860 --> 00:21:52.280 like a full day of talks by itself, 00:21:53.800 --> 00:21:53.980 and actually a little bit more than a day 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:55.640 now, because I've been squeezing things into 00:21:58.260 --> 00:21:58.760 other tracks. There has been some potential 00:22:00.060 --> 00:22:00.560 interest in having an org conf. 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:03.480 It could be a thing. And I'd love to see 00:22:05.760 --> 00:22:06.240 also, we'd love to experiment with other 00:22:08.900 --> 00:22:09.240 formats. So there could be a bug hunting 00:22:13.740 --> 00:22:13.900 session or let's use the breakout rooms to 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:16.120 split up into little mentoring groups and see 00:22:18.040 --> 00:22:18.240 how that works. So lots of things that we can 00:22:21.460 --> 00:22:21.760 do. They've actually finished over in the Gen 00:22:24.360 --> 00:22:24.620 track so I don't know if people want to very 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:26.920 quickly ask questions here or if we go there. 00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:31.260 Leo has come over here instead so okay he's 00:22:32.560 --> 00:22:33.060 joining over here on the other side. 00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:36.180 Okay, hello. 00:22:38.060 --> 00:22:38.560 [Speaker 3]: I 00:22:43.260 --> 00:22:43.440 [Speaker 1]: have 1 thing to add. Yeah, 00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:46.720 [Speaker 4]: No, no, no, I was just about to say I am not 00:22:48.420 --> 00:22:48.680 hosting anymore. You 2 do a wonderful job, 00:22:49.640 --> 00:22:50.140 and I'm happy to just watch. 00:22:53.860 --> 00:22:54.000 [Speaker 1]: go ahead. Cool. Yeah, I was going to add 1 00:22:56.520 --> 00:22:56.660 quick note about any potential suggestions or 00:22:58.080 --> 00:22:58.240 recommendations for hosting Emacs on 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:00.240 satellites. Is that, I mean, 00:23:01.800 --> 00:23:02.300 given that we are an event centered around 00:23:07.360 --> 00:23:07.440 Emacs, and Emacs is backed by the Free 00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:09.320 Software Foundation, if you do reach out to 00:23:11.180 --> 00:23:11.680 them, they're usually pretty helpful in terms 00:23:14.340 --> 00:23:14.840 of sending goodies and stickers and such. 00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:17.040 So yeah, if you give them a heads up and 00:23:17.900 --> 00:23:18.400 reach out to them in advance, 00:23:20.800 --> 00:23:20.880 you might well end up with a whole bunch of 00:23:22.800 --> 00:23:23.000 swag on your hands that you could give out 00:23:24.860 --> 00:23:25.360 during the satellite. So that's the thing. 00:23:35.500 --> 00:23:36.000 [Speaker 5]: Well, I just wanted to note it felt kind of 00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:37.840 even smoother. I mean, 00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:40.160 you guys always run a nice conference, 00:23:43.180 --> 00:23:43.460 but it felt smoother this year than ever 00:23:45.600 --> 00:23:45.980 before, which listening to your talk, 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:48.900 Sasha, All the automation that you're doing 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:52.740 is pretty incredible. So I think it's paying 00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:53.240 off. 00:23:58.180 --> 00:23:58.320 [Speaker 0]: Yay! You know, it is very amusing to hear the 00:23:59.240 --> 00:23:59.440 host say, okay, you know, 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:01.000 but we've got to wrap up in the next 30 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:03.040 seconds because Sasha's contact is going to 00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:03.740 go yoink! 00:24:12.800 --> 00:24:12.980 [Speaker 5]: I have a person I work with who keeps the 00:24:15.360 --> 00:24:15.860 trains running on time shall we say and like 00:24:18.940 --> 00:24:19.140 cuts off every meeting like the second that 00:24:21.140 --> 00:24:21.320 it's supposed to end while somebody's in 00:24:24.860 --> 00:24:25.080 mid-sentence and I hope we don't get to that 00:24:25.380 --> 00:24:25.880 point here. 00:24:34.560 --> 00:24:34.740 [Speaker 0]: So do we have any more, 00:24:36.080 --> 00:24:36.360 [Speaker 4]: oh sorry I'm reverting to the hosting, 00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:37.900 Do we have any more questions for MaxConf? 00:24:39.760 --> 00:24:39.960 Although maybe we want to switch to the other 00:24:41.580 --> 00:24:41.760 room so that we don't struggle too much to 00:24:44.340 --> 00:24:44.840 find... Organize the stuff on BBB afterwards. 00:24:46.360 --> 00:24:46.620 [Speaker 0]: Oh, the recording. Well, 00:24:48.340 --> 00:24:48.640 this is a way to make sure the recording gets 00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:54.640 online. But we could do that too. 00:24:55.760 --> 00:24:56.260 I don't know. What do y'all think? 00:25:00.580 --> 00:25:00.900 [Speaker 4]: I'm personally fine. If we want to stay here 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:03.220 right now, the development track is currently 00:25:05.280 --> 00:25:05.780 streaming this BBB room. 00:25:08.760 --> 00:25:08.940 So are we on Jen. So we're going to leave it 00:25:10.760 --> 00:25:10.840 at is and move into closing remarks if we 00:25:10.840 --> 00:25:11.340 want. 00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:15.060 [Speaker 1]: Oh, yeah, just, I guess, 00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:17.920 make sure that every 1 of the organizers are 00:25:20.740 --> 00:25:21.060 here. I see Flo here. Let's see, 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:23.860 Corbyn, are you here? Can you maybe speak 00:25:24.280 --> 00:25:24.780 here on BBB? 00:25:32.860 --> 00:25:33.000 [Speaker 4]: We'll give some time for Corbyn to figure it 00:25:33.840 --> 00:25:34.280 out. He did figure it out eventually 00:25:36.260 --> 00:25:36.420 yesterday, so surely today will go 00:25:36.420 --> 00:25:36.920 swimmingly. 00:25:47.420 --> 00:25:47.720 Right. We're getting everything ready, 00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:48.220 folks. 00:25:57.100 --> 00:25:57.600 [Speaker 0]: Okay. So while we sort out Corwin, 00:25:58.980 --> 00:25:59.280 can someone tell him on mumble, 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:00.980 I guess? Because I'm not sure if he's... 00:26:05.060 --> 00:26:05.420 Anyway. I also want to say that in the Emacs 00:26:06.580 --> 00:26:06.740 conference channel, people have been 00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:09.060 mentioning that the remote stuff has been 00:26:10.840 --> 00:26:10.920 working for them. And I really do like the 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:12.880 way that this means we can have all the 00:26:13.980 --> 00:26:14.480 videos, you know, all prepared, 00:26:16.020 --> 00:26:16.220 they're captioned, you know, 00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:17.580 We can send them to people, 00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:19.500 we can post them on the website afterwards. 00:26:21.540 --> 00:26:22.020 We can bring all these people together who 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:23.880 might not be able to convince their companies 00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:25.680 to fly them somewhere for an Emacs 00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:29.760 conference. And also I can do this kind of 00:26:32.120 --> 00:26:32.620 prep while having my now seven-year-old still 00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:34.980 be able to wander by and whatever. 00:26:36.820 --> 00:26:37.320 Travelling is really tough. 00:26:39.220 --> 00:26:39.600 So, this is fine. This is cool. 00:26:40.760 --> 00:26:41.260 I like this. We'll keep doing it. 00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:44.740 [Speaker 4]: It's definitely playing into the low-cost 00:26:46.360 --> 00:26:46.820 conference. To do it online, 00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:48.400 So many people can just access it very 00:26:53.760 --> 00:26:54.220 easily. All right, so we've messaged Colwyn. 00:26:55.760 --> 00:26:56.040 I guess we can get started with Dalim. 00:26:57.720 --> 00:26:57.900 It should maybe take a minute or 2 to join 00:27:01.400 --> 00:27:01.640 us. Should I get started with the Final words 00:27:04.540 --> 00:27:04.900 of the day? All right, 00:27:05.740 --> 00:27:06.240 cool. All right, folks, 00:27:08.220 --> 00:27:08.440 we made it. We are at the end of the second 00:27:10.320 --> 00:27:10.820 day of EmacsConf, the second of 2 days. 00:27:12.620 --> 00:27:13.040 And the first thing I want to say is first, 00:27:15.360 --> 00:27:15.660 thank you so much for joining us for this new 00:27:19.020 --> 00:27:19.200 edition. It's personally my fourth year doing 00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:22.500 the EmacsConf, but if you go to emacsconf-org 00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:25.080 and you see the different sessions, 00:27:27.380 --> 00:27:27.660 you will realize that the first 1 was in 00:27:29.820 --> 00:27:30.300 2013, which happens to be 10 years ago. 00:27:33.340 --> 00:27:33.480 So we are obviously very excited about all of 00:27:35.420 --> 00:27:35.680 this and we'll tell you perhaps a little more 00:27:38.100 --> 00:27:38.300 about what has changed over the last 10 00:27:41.760 --> 00:27:42.260 years. As usual, you know the pre-recorded 00:27:44.540 --> 00:27:44.800 talks are available right now on the talk 00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:46.800 page, at least for all those which were 00:27:48.620 --> 00:27:48.760 pre-recorded. All the ones which happened on 00:27:50.200 --> 00:27:50.320 the Google button, it will take us a little 00:27:52.360 --> 00:27:52.780 bit of time to figure out how to, 00:27:54.320 --> 00:27:54.820 well, when to put them available. 00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:56.880 We need to do subtitles and all this jazzy 00:27:59.060 --> 00:27:59.440 stuff. And we'll also upload them to YouTube 00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:02.000 and other places once we check the audio, 00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:03.200 especially for the Q&As. 00:28:05.140 --> 00:28:05.280 We need to clean up some of the audios and 00:28:08.300 --> 00:28:08.680 make sure that we do not publish any personal 00:28:13.040 --> 00:28:13.220 stuff. All the live talks and Q&As will do 00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:14.700 this in the weeks to come. 00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:16.800 Usually, it takes us about 1 to 2 months to 00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:17.640 try to get everything out, 00:28:18.280 --> 00:28:18.680 but if it takes longer, 00:28:19.540 --> 00:28:20.040 it's fine. Eventually, 00:28:20.900 --> 00:28:21.180 everything will be there. 00:28:23.360 --> 00:28:23.860 The 1 thing we can say is that by EmacsConf 00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:26.660 2024, when it comes around, 00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:28.840 everything should have been uploaded at some 00:28:30.100 --> 00:28:30.600 point. So that's a wide window. 00:28:34.340 --> 00:28:34.700 So again, and as usual, 00:28:35.980 --> 00:28:36.480 feel free to spread the word about EmacsConf 00:28:38.860 --> 00:28:38.940 because, you know, we've been doing this for 00:28:42.100 --> 00:28:42.280 a while and every year more people show up to 00:28:43.980 --> 00:28:44.440 these events and more people watch the videos 00:28:46.620 --> 00:28:47.120 on YouTube and it's wonderful to see, 00:28:49.940 --> 00:28:50.220 you know, our main goal which is to get cool 00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:51.900 ideas out of the head of people, 00:28:53.860 --> 00:28:54.280 shared and viewed by so many people. 00:28:56.660 --> 00:28:57.160 It's always amazing. Also, 00:28:58.180 --> 00:28:58.680 I would like to ask you personally, 00:28:59.700 --> 00:29:00.060 what did you like about this conference? 00:29:01.780 --> 00:29:01.980 Or what do you like, what do you feel was 00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:02.860 better than last year, 00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:05.840 because the feedback is very useful to us. 00:29:07.340 --> 00:29:07.540 We'd also like to know if you've got any 00:29:08.940 --> 00:29:09.440 ideas for making things even better. 00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:12.180 And we've got a general conference discussion 00:29:13.900 --> 00:29:14.400 slash notes slash community message board, 00:29:14.920 --> 00:29:15.420 which is pad.emaxconf.org 00:29:19.280 --> 00:29:19.640 slash 2023. And you can also just mention 00:29:22.120 --> 00:29:22.300 them. You know, we might open this room for 00:29:24.080 --> 00:29:24.520 people to join us and chat, 00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:25.960 although Flowy and myself, 00:29:27.340 --> 00:29:27.540 your up team, needs to go to bed. 00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:28.680 So please be mindful of this. 00:29:29.760 --> 00:29:30.160 If you ask a very interesting question, 00:29:32.260 --> 00:29:32.560 We will both have to make sacrifices to stay 00:29:34.300 --> 00:29:34.680 a while longer because you're too damn 00:29:38.620 --> 00:29:39.080 interesting. Now we'd like to move into 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:41.500 thanking all the people who make EmacsConf 00:29:42.660 --> 00:29:43.080 possible. And obviously, 00:29:45.060 --> 00:29:45.560 first, we have to thank all the speakers, 00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:47.460 all the volunteers, the participants, 00:29:49.960 --> 00:29:50.240 and to all those other people in our lives 00:29:51.660 --> 00:29:51.820 who make it possible through time and 00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:54.060 support, thank you so much for allowing us to 00:29:55.760 --> 00:29:55.960 run EmacsCount. It wouldn't happen without 00:29:57.160 --> 00:29:57.440 you, and without us, I suppose, 00:29:58.540 --> 00:29:59.040 because we are included in this. 00:30:01.720 --> 00:30:02.220 This year's conference hosts are myself, 00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:03.900 Leo Vivier, Amine Bendali, 00:30:05.860 --> 00:30:06.100 and joining our team of hosts for the first 00:30:07.080 --> 00:30:07.540 time this year, Flobby Coder. 00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:08.360 Thank you so much, Flobby. 00:30:09.340 --> 00:30:09.840 You did a wonderful job. 00:30:11.600 --> 00:30:12.100 It's right there. No, dammit. 00:30:15.180 --> 00:30:15.360 No, I can't. I can never remember if BBB is 00:30:17.120 --> 00:30:17.360 flipping stuff, so either 1 of those 00:30:19.600 --> 00:30:20.020 directions. The streams this year, 00:30:21.760 --> 00:30:22.200 as last year, were managed by Sasha Schwa, 00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:24.820 obviously. And the check-ins by Flobby Coder, 00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:27.740 and I'm in with Miscellaneous running around 00:30:30.020 --> 00:30:30.520 by Corwin Brust, who will be joining us 00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:32.500 momentarily. Apparently, 00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:35.140 all his USB failed, so he will be with us as 00:30:38.140 --> 00:30:38.640 [Speaker 3]: Roost. Rhymes with Roost. 00:30:41.040 --> 00:30:41.380 Do I have audio now? Alright, 00:30:42.380 --> 00:30:42.800 I'll go to work on my camera. 00:30:43.820 --> 00:30:44.320 Hi. Hello? 00:30:45.540 --> 00:30:45.980 [Speaker 4]: soon as he can. It's Lovely. 00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:47.140 Okay, I'll keep going. 00:30:49.120 --> 00:30:49.460 I also need to thank, well, 00:30:51.100 --> 00:30:51.480 need, no, I want to thank all the captioning 00:30:53.040 --> 00:30:53.400 volunteers, the captioners as we call them. 00:30:54.380 --> 00:30:54.880 You've got Daniel Molina, 00:30:57.160 --> 00:30:57.660 Bala Ramadoui, Durai, sorry, 00:30:59.140 --> 00:30:59.640 Bhavin Gandhi, Amin Zayed, 00:31:02.220 --> 00:31:02.440 Yoni Rapkin, who presented 1 of the talk 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:04.740 earlier, Daniel Alejandro Tapia, 00:31:06.060 --> 00:31:06.560 Hannah Miller, Ken Huang, 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:07.700 Jean-Christophe Ellary, 00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:10.800 and James Howell. Also thanking 00:31:11.320 --> 00:31:11.760 Jean-Christophe Ellary, 00:31:13.220 --> 00:31:13.680 Colwyn, Quiliro, Kern, 00:31:15.420 --> 00:31:15.800 and Amin Bendali for helping with the early 00:31:18.120 --> 00:31:18.620 acceptance process. Sasha, 00:31:21.180 --> 00:31:21.600 do I read this 1? It's weird to think myself. 00:31:22.740 --> 00:31:23.080 I'm gonna pat myself on the back, 00:31:24.780 --> 00:31:25.280 I guess. Go on, Sasha. 00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:26.920 I'll do it. I'll do it. 00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:29.340 It's fine. Thanks to myself for fiddling with 00:31:30.900 --> 00:31:31.400 the audio to get things nicely synced, 00:31:34.120 --> 00:31:34.340 And thanks to myself again and other people, 00:31:36.840 --> 00:31:37.340 we kept the mailing list free from spam. 00:31:39.320 --> 00:31:39.440 Because I'm not sure what happened since May, 00:31:41.820 --> 00:31:42.180 but we've been receiving about 3 to 4 spam 00:31:44.760 --> 00:31:45.040 emails. And it just happened all of a sudden, 00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:46.900 and I was really weirded out by this process. 00:31:51.380 --> 00:31:51.880 Where was I? OK, thanks to Andrew Ducurty for 00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:53.500 helping with whisper processing. 00:31:55.840 --> 00:31:56.200 Thanks to Ashki Ghekwad for design 00:31:57.540 --> 00:31:58.040 contribution. Thanks to Yoshin, 00:31:59.900 --> 00:32:00.040 our grand changro for all the music that 00:32:01.840 --> 00:32:01.960 we've been using for the last 3 years at this 00:32:04.740 --> 00:32:04.840 point, I think. Also thanks to Rye for the 00:32:06.820 --> 00:32:07.020 server that we're using for OBS streaming and 00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:08.220 for processing videos. 00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:10.800 And also thanks to the free software 00:32:12.540 --> 00:32:13.040 foundation for obviously Emacs itself, 00:32:14.340 --> 00:32:14.840 the mailing list that we use, 00:32:15.340 --> 00:32:15.840 and the media.emacsconf-org 00:32:19.540 --> 00:32:19.780 server where all of the presentations are 00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:22.580 currently hosted. We'd also like to thank 00:32:23.520 --> 00:32:24.020 BigBlueButton, Etherpad, 00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:26.420 IceCast, OBS, The Lounge, 00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:28.980 Libre.chat, FFmpeg, OpenAI, 00:32:31.300 --> 00:32:31.800 Whisper, the E-N-E-S force alignment tool, 00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:35.000 Site Transfer, SubD, and contributors to all 00:32:36.900 --> 00:32:37.020 of the tools and services we used in the 00:32:37.600 --> 00:32:38.000 making of this conference. 00:32:39.520 --> 00:32:39.960 And obviously, all of them are free, 00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:41.880 as Sasha obviously told you, 00:32:44.080 --> 00:32:44.260 and as we will be telling you again for many 00:32:47.700 --> 00:32:48.060 years to come. We'd also like again to thank 00:32:49.780 --> 00:32:50.140 everyone for attending the conference and 00:32:51.820 --> 00:32:52.320 making EmacsConf what it is. 00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:54.280 And for those who were on the general track, 00:32:56.540 --> 00:32:56.720 you know Sasha did it in parallel to the last 00:32:58.980 --> 00:32:59.340 talk we had today. She did a wonderful talk 00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:02.180 on how EmacsConf is actually run. 00:33:05.620 --> 00:33:06.060 So there's her talk, there's also an entire 00:33:07.760 --> 00:33:08.260 page on our wiki about the infrastructure 00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:10.400 that we use. So if you're interested, 00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:12.380 especially in running an event of your own, 00:33:14.340 --> 00:33:14.540 you've got as much information as you want, 00:33:15.600 --> 00:33:15.940 and as Sacha probably told you, 00:33:17.600 --> 00:33:18.100 we are available for sharing the knowledge 00:33:20.820 --> 00:33:20.940 and enabling your dreams of making a 00:33:24.220 --> 00:33:24.340 conference. Amint, do you want to take it 00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:26.180 over with the fiscal sponsorship 00:33:29.320 --> 00:33:29.480 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, sure. Let's see. 00:33:30.980 --> 00:33:31.480 Can you please scroll down a little bit? 00:33:33.520 --> 00:33:34.020 Whoever is kindly sharing the screen. 00:33:34.460 --> 00:33:34.960 [Speaker 4]: announcements? Okay. Oh, 00:33:36.140 --> 00:33:36.360 I was scrolling on my end. 00:33:36.360 --> 00:33:36.860 Sorry. 00:33:41.380 --> 00:33:41.780 [Speaker 1]: Thanks, Sasha. Yeah, so kind of super excited 00:33:43.080 --> 00:33:43.300 to finally get into this. 00:33:45.220 --> 00:33:45.300 And this is something that we've been kind of 00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:47.200 hoping to get worked out for a long time 00:33:48.280 --> 00:33:48.780 actually and it's finally here. 00:33:52.900 --> 00:33:53.140 So people might have already seen this but as 00:33:57.620 --> 00:33:58.120 of this last Thursday we're actually fiscally 00:33:59.440 --> 00:33:59.940 sponsored by the Free Software Foundation. 00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:03.740 So we joined their Working Together for Free 00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:07.840 Software program. And DFSF published the 00:34:08.540 --> 00:34:08.940 announcement on their website. 00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:11.500 You're welcome to go and check it out there. 00:34:14.060 --> 00:34:14.280 But I just want to quickly get into a little 00:34:17.900 --> 00:34:18.040 bit about what it means and some of the 00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:22.000 benefits, I guess. So as part of this working 00:34:23.300 --> 00:34:23.800 together for a free software fund, 00:34:26.580 --> 00:34:26.679 the FSF provides fiscal sponsorship for a 00:34:29.060 --> 00:34:29.320 number of important free software and new 00:34:30.900 --> 00:34:31.239 technical projects, such as the new tool 00:34:33.679 --> 00:34:33.840 chain and Replicant, which is a free fork of 00:34:36.340 --> 00:34:36.540 Android. And starting this year, 00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:38.800 EmacsConf has joined the program as well. 00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:41.440 And as a fiscal sponsor, 00:34:43.520 --> 00:34:44.020 DFSF can assist us by providing services 00:34:46.500 --> 00:34:46.940 required by a legal entity, 00:34:49.300 --> 00:34:49.460 like signing contracts and receiving and 00:34:53.080 --> 00:34:53.360 processing payments. So to provide some 00:34:56.820 --> 00:34:57.040 context, eMAXConf is and always has been an 00:34:58.740 --> 00:34:58.940 independent initiative organized by a very 00:34:59.700 --> 00:35:00.140 small number of people, 00:35:02.120 --> 00:35:02.560 a small team of people without any corporate 00:35:05.980 --> 00:35:06.220 sponsors. And that's important in part 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:09.380 because I believe part of our message is that 00:35:11.860 --> 00:35:12.040 we want to showcase that everybody can do 00:35:14.200 --> 00:35:14.380 this and organize a conference like this no 00:35:17.200 --> 00:35:17.560 matter how small your team is and how modest 00:35:19.540 --> 00:35:19.900 your resources are, which we will actually 00:35:21.260 --> 00:35:21.560 get into a little bit later in the closing 00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:25.900 remarks. But yeah, so now having the FSF as 00:35:27.780 --> 00:35:28.020 our fiscal sponsor, we're in a better 00:35:30.200 --> 00:35:30.680 position to accept donations as 1 potential 00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:33.860 way to contribute or help the conference. 00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:36.860 And just to clarify, we're currently not 00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:39.520 struggling at all to cover these costs of the 00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:41.240 servers and such, which we will get into 00:35:44.720 --> 00:35:45.060 again. But this is just 1 extra avenue if 00:35:46.720 --> 00:35:46.880 people are feeling generous and would like to 00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:48.380 help, it's much appreciated. 00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:54.620 And yeah, so having a 501c3 nonprofit like 00:35:57.160 --> 00:35:57.660 the FSF, as a fiscal sponsor, 00:36:00.060 --> 00:36:00.340 many donors will receive tax benefits that 00:36:02.180 --> 00:36:02.360 they otherwise wouldn't receive if they were 00:36:04.540 --> 00:36:04.680 to like donate to like individuals running a 00:36:07.500 --> 00:36:07.720 project directly. And also donors can know 00:36:08.860 --> 00:36:09.140 that, you know, the funds that they're 00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:11.420 donating are being handled by an accountable 00:36:14.060 --> 00:36:14.540 institution. And also importantly, 00:36:16.020 --> 00:36:16.520 when donating through the FSF, 00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:20.460 Let's see, text changing. 00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:23.560 Okay, yeah. People can donate without having 00:36:24.600 --> 00:36:25.100 to run any non-free JavaScript, 00:36:27.380 --> 00:36:27.880 which is nice. Because unfortunately, 00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:29.540 usually these days on the web when you do 00:36:30.600 --> 00:36:30.880 want to buy something or spend money, 00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:32.340 you have to run non-free JavaScript, 00:36:35.020 --> 00:36:35.220 which isn't the case when donating through 00:36:37.720 --> 00:36:38.160 the FSF. Yeah, so we just joined, 00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:39.500 as I said, on Thursday, 00:36:43.020 --> 00:36:43.220 and we've already received our very first 00:36:45.400 --> 00:36:45.640 donation, so we'd like to extend our thanks 00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:47.300 and gratitude to Scott Ranby, 00:36:49.480 --> 00:36:49.980 who is actually our first ever kind donor. 00:36:51.820 --> 00:36:52.320 They agreed to be thanked publicly. 00:36:55.900 --> 00:36:56.200 So thank you, Scott. And yeah, 00:36:57.040 --> 00:36:57.540 so this is a recent development. 00:36:59.800 --> 00:36:59.980 And we plan to add much more information and 00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:02.020 details about this whole situation to the 00:37:04.200 --> 00:37:04.700 wiki, including links to the announcements, 00:37:06.280 --> 00:37:06.780 some more information about the program, 00:37:08.040 --> 00:37:08.540 and our donation page of course, 00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:13.140 in the new future. And in the meantime I'm 00:37:15.080 --> 00:37:15.240 also happy to help answer any questions as 00:37:17.900 --> 00:37:18.400 best as I can, So feel free to ping me on IRC 00:37:19.640 --> 00:37:20.140 or just email me at bandalia.guinard.org. 00:37:26.140 --> 00:37:26.640 [Speaker 3]: Which gives me a chance to jump in and just 00:37:29.060 --> 00:37:29.560 point out 1 question that we know people have 00:37:32.680 --> 00:37:32.960 is just about how much of the money goes to 00:37:35.660 --> 00:37:35.860 FSF when you make a contribution through the 00:37:36.860 --> 00:37:37.360 fund toward EmacsConf? 00:37:40.560 --> 00:37:40.760 [Speaker 1]: Right, exactly. Yeah, and the answer to that 00:37:44.540 --> 00:37:44.720 is that it's 10%, which is for supporting the 00:37:46.720 --> 00:37:46.960 operation of the Working Together program and 00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:49.300 also the shared GNU infrastructure, 00:37:52.040 --> 00:37:52.540 which we as EmacsConf use and depend on, 00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:55.420 along with several hundred GNU packages. 00:37:59.860 --> 00:38:00.060 So, yeah, and it covers things like 00:38:03.060 --> 00:38:03.480 transaction costs that the FSF's payment 00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:04.500 processor charges? 00:38:10.040 --> 00:38:10.240 [Speaker 3]: And then again I'll come back to say this is 00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:12.780 a real fair price. I have some experience 00:38:15.300 --> 00:38:15.540 with working with payment processing and 00:38:19.120 --> 00:38:19.440 things like this and like 10% that's a that's 00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:22.940 something that you see in Bigger businesses 00:38:25.900 --> 00:38:26.380 that have a model around making money on that 00:38:29.160 --> 00:38:29.280 Transaction so to be able to do that as a 00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:31.760 nonprofit. We're taking advantage of a really 00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:32.900 awesome thing there. 00:38:35.860 --> 00:38:36.060 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, 00:38:36.820 --> 00:38:37.120 just for a quick plug, 00:38:38.860 --> 00:38:39.060 the FSF is actually doing an end of year 00:38:41.780 --> 00:38:42.020 fundraiser right now. So if you want to go 00:38:44.220 --> 00:38:44.700 donate to them, or if you donate to us, 00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:48.260 a part of it will go to the FSF to support 00:38:51.400 --> 00:38:51.900 their work on free software, 00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:53.500 helping grow the movement, 00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:56.120 and spread the word about it. 00:39:02.080 --> 00:39:02.360 So, thank you. And I guess now is a good time 00:39:05.380 --> 00:39:05.800 for me to pass the baton to the next 00:39:08.160 --> 00:39:08.320 organizer who wants to talk about some of the 00:39:11.040 --> 00:39:11.540 specs of the servers that we use right now. 00:39:14.720 --> 00:39:14.860 [Speaker 0]: We actually don't have to go about this in 00:39:16.560 --> 00:39:16.840 detail. I just put it in there in case people 00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:19.540 were curious about how much it takes to run 00:39:20.740 --> 00:39:21.240 something like this. Not a lot. 00:39:22.900 --> 00:39:23.100 It's just really, you know, 00:39:26.100 --> 00:39:26.260 2 days of computing is not that expensive in 00:39:29.060 --> 00:39:29.480 today's world, and all the rest is just 00:39:32.220 --> 00:39:32.640 volunteer time and a heck of a lot of Emacs 00:39:34.080 --> 00:39:34.280 lists as previously discussed in our 00:39:41.020 --> 00:39:41.180 presentation. So, we'll just skip through 00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:42.440 that instead of reading all of it. 00:39:43.580 --> 00:39:43.840 Unless people are specifically curious, 00:39:44.640 --> 00:39:45.140 you can ask questions afterwards. 00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:46.820 But yes, happy birthday, 00:39:49.200 --> 00:39:49.440 EmacsConf, and here's another wonderful 10 00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:49.940 years. 00:39:56.820 --> 00:39:57.040 [Speaker 4]: All right, I think we are at the end of the 00:39:58.820 --> 00:39:59.320 closing remarks. Have I forgotten anything? 00:40:00.060 --> 00:40:00.380 We haven't had Flowy yet, 00:40:03.340 --> 00:40:03.560 I believe. Sorry for putting you on the spot 00:40:03.560 --> 00:40:04.060 again. 00:40:07.940 --> 00:40:08.400 [Speaker 6]: I guess I have nothing really to say besides 00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:09.780 what you have already said. 00:40:12.560 --> 00:40:13.060 So thank everybody to make a presentation, 00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:15.640 to do anything here. Thanks for all of you 00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:17.080 that I could be a part of it. 00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:18.380 I have to admit it also. 00:40:21.020 --> 00:40:21.520 So thank you all. And yeah, 00:40:22.540 --> 00:40:23.040 nothing to say probably. 00:40:25.560 --> 00:40:25.840 [Speaker 1]: And I also want to send the thanks to Flowy 00:40:27.260 --> 00:40:27.380 for, you know, stepping in. 00:40:29.340 --> 00:40:29.480 We kind of like throw this on you like at the 00:40:31.560 --> 00:40:31.720 last second, but Flowy actually stepped in 00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:34.160 and hosted graciously a couple of the talks 00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:35.140 on the Dev track today. 00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:37.200 So, which I think went very well. 00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:38.980 So congrats and thank you. 00:40:39.720 --> 00:40:40.220 [Speaker 6]: Thank you. 00:40:41.420 --> 00:40:41.920 [Speaker 4]: Speaking of which we were not monsters. 00:40:43.420 --> 00:40:43.660 We kindly asked Floey yesterday because 00:40:44.540 --> 00:40:44.760 everything was going so well. 00:40:45.520 --> 00:40:45.600 And now we can say it, 00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:47.240 you know, I can say things are going well. 00:40:48.760 --> 00:40:48.880 Usually it's a bad thing when you're doing a 00:40:50.500 --> 00:40:50.740 broadcast to say things are going well right 00:40:53.080 --> 00:40:53.300 now because it tends to backfires at some 00:40:56.980 --> 00:40:57.480 [Speaker 3]: Hours of notice, hours of notice. 00:40:58.900 --> 00:40:59.400 That, that's planning. 00:41:02.420 --> 00:41:02.920 [Speaker 4]: point. But yesterday- So hours of notice, 00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:05.340 Flowy didn't sleep all that much because we 00:41:06.500 --> 00:41:06.980 tasked him with hosting, 00:41:08.440 --> 00:41:08.720 so he was turning in his bed all night 00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:10.460 thinking, oh, I'm going to host MaxCons. 00:41:13.660 --> 00:41:13.860 But Flowy, you did a wonderful job and I am 00:41:15.720 --> 00:41:15.940 so glad that not only you were able to join 00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:17.900 us again this year, but that also you were 00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:20.140 able to host. Because last year, 00:41:20.900 --> 00:41:21.140 had we asked you to host, 00:41:21.820 --> 00:41:22.320 you would have said no. 00:41:25.120 --> 00:41:25.580 First time we asked you this year was yes, 00:41:27.100 --> 00:41:27.600 but give me some time to think about it. 00:41:30.100 --> 00:41:30.600 [Speaker 6]: Next year it is yes completely. 00:41:32.780 --> 00:41:32.940 [Speaker 4]: If we've done a good job, 00:41:33.560 --> 00:41:34.060 it will be yes directly. 00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:38.080 All right, so since we are at the end of the 00:41:41.140 --> 00:41:41.320 thankings and I did say europe team needs to 00:41:43.580 --> 00:41:43.700 go to bed in about 12 minutes that leaves us 00:41:45.940 --> 00:41:46.440 about 12 minutes to try to answer as many 00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:48.340 points as you'd like to raise. 00:41:50.640 --> 00:41:50.940 Sasha, I think the Q&A room is still open 00:41:52.680 --> 00:41:53.100 because we are technically still in the Emacs 00:41:53.560 --> 00:41:54.020 conference room currently. 00:41:56.480 --> 00:41:56.660 So, if you... We're going to put the link 00:41:57.840 --> 00:41:58.000 again if you need to find it. 00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:00.300 Otherwise, scroll up and find the 1 on there. 00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:04.900 [Speaker 0]: I think I can change the redirect. 00:42:07.240 --> 00:42:07.740 Maybe. I will go figure this out. 00:42:08.600 --> 00:42:09.100 Keep talking in the background. 00:42:12.160 --> 00:42:12.280 [Speaker 4]: Right. So, whilst we figure this out in the 00:42:13.740 --> 00:42:13.860 background, it would be nice if you could 00:42:14.640 --> 00:42:15.040 join us and ask questions, 00:42:15.900 --> 00:42:16.020 either by dropping them. 00:42:18.080 --> 00:42:18.340 I see plenty of people have already left some 00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:19.840 comments. We have 2 places, 00:42:21.820 --> 00:42:22.240 right now it's more about a chitchatting 00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:23.360 about the end of the conference. 00:42:24.160 --> 00:42:24.660 If you've got general feedback, 00:42:26.160 --> 00:42:26.400 we've mentioned it at the top, 00:42:28.580 --> 00:42:28.780 but if you want to write your general 00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:31.080 feedback here, it will find its way at some 00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:33.160 point in the years of the relevant people who 00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:34.280 can make things change. 00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:36.040 So don't worry too much about where you put 00:42:37.120 --> 00:42:37.540 your feedback, it'll be fine. 00:42:40.240 --> 00:42:40.440 But now, how about we start reading some of 00:42:42.700 --> 00:42:43.080 the notes that people have said or questions 00:42:43.080 --> 00:42:43.260 that 00:42:47.094 --> 00:42:47.151 [Speaker 3]: have been asked. So here's 1 for Amin. 00:42:48.460 --> 00:42:48.820 Do you have any stats on how many people 00:42:52.200 --> 00:42:52.700 watched for an IRC and BBB over the 2 days? 00:42:58.140 --> 00:42:58.620 [Speaker 1]: Right, yeah, so I guess for IceCast, 00:43:00.040 --> 00:43:00.540 which I can answer more readily, 00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:04.260 I think yesterday we were averaging around 00:43:08.120 --> 00:43:08.620 240, 250 concurrent viewers at a time. 00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:13.260 And today, so today it varied. 00:43:16.300 --> 00:43:16.740 I think the maximum was again like around 200 00:43:19.600 --> 00:43:19.820 to 20-ish with the average being more around 00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:25.460 180, 190 viewers. We've had a lot of hits to 00:43:28.700 --> 00:43:29.180 the actual web pages for the Emacs Conf Wiki 00:43:31.720 --> 00:43:31.960 or the pad, which are all being served on 1 00:43:34.740 --> 00:43:35.140 server. I pulled some numbers. 00:43:36.140 --> 00:43:36.640 I'm not sure if they're correct. 00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:38.900 So I'm like a little bit hesitant to discuss 00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:41.980 them. Safe to say they're easily in the tens 00:43:44.380 --> 00:43:44.580 of thousands, maybe in the hundreds of 00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:48.420 thousands of total visits over the past, 00:43:52.540 --> 00:43:53.040 [Speaker 0]: Maybe the pad makes a lot of small requests. 00:43:53.940 --> 00:43:54.400 [Speaker 1]: I guess, 48 hours. Right, 00:43:57.040 --> 00:43:57.200 okay. So, yeah, that's why I'm hesitant to 00:43:59.240 --> 00:43:59.380 say. But yeah, easily in the thousands or 00:44:01.860 --> 00:44:02.020 [Speaker 3]: You know 00:44:02.980 --> 00:44:03.260 [Speaker 4]: who you are anyway, the crowd, 00:44:04.080 --> 00:44:04.240 you know how many you are, 00:44:05.340 --> 00:44:05.840 you do not need exact numbers 00:44:08.720 --> 00:44:09.220 [Speaker 1]: tens of thousands. Yeah, 00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:11.200 so I don't have the exact numbers but I guess 00:44:13.260 --> 00:44:13.460 it's always kind of fun to maybe try to pull 00:44:15.700 --> 00:44:15.840 some numbers and look at it that way but you 00:44:18.080 --> 00:44:18.580 know of course we all know that what we do, 00:44:19.720 --> 00:44:20.220 every single person counts. 00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:24.660 So I don't know, trying to look at turning 00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:28.400 people into abstract numbers isn't, 00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:30.820 I don't know, inspiring to me very much, 00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:32.340 but it's cool. So. 00:44:36.020 --> 00:44:36.140 [Speaker 4]: All right. So how about we go into the 00:44:37.640 --> 00:44:38.140 questions. So Sasha is now in the viewport 00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:39.780 where we can see some questions. 00:44:41.200 --> 00:44:41.700 So how about we take some of them. 00:44:43.900 --> 00:44:44.060 I can read them or if anyone of the 00:44:45.020 --> 00:44:45.520 organizers wants to do this, 00:44:46.720 --> 00:44:47.040 feel free, especially those who haven't 00:44:48.040 --> 00:44:48.540 talked to a whole lot this year. 00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:53.480 Cohen, do you want to try it? 00:44:54.760 --> 00:44:55.260 [Speaker 3]: I didn't make my motive clear. 00:44:59.220 --> 00:44:59.500 I did and I'm done. I took the first 00:45:01.120 --> 00:45:01.320 question, I picked the bottom question off 00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:03.120 the list because I knew exactly who it was 00:45:05.140 --> 00:45:05.500 going for. The person who wants to answer or 00:45:07.080 --> 00:45:07.580 direct the next question is welcome. 00:45:10.520 --> 00:45:10.760 Sorry, I could have given a little better 00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:11.680 stage direction there. 00:45:13.660 --> 00:45:14.160 I'm not prepared to answer how many emaxers 00:45:16.080 --> 00:45:16.560 are from Nordic countries other than to say 00:45:17.680 --> 00:45:18.180 definitely yes and several. 00:45:21.900 --> 00:45:22.080 And I haven't looked close enough at the 00:45:22.580 --> 00:45:23.080 suggestion yet. 00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:27.720 [Speaker 4]: Right, okay. I can take the question about 00:45:30.020 --> 00:45:30.060 the BBB limitations. So it's the second 1, 00:45:31.560 --> 00:45:32.060 the red 1. Small suggestion, 00:45:33.120 --> 00:45:33.520 likely out of your control, 00:45:36.340 --> 00:45:36.660 but anyway, the blue button seems to work 00:45:38.300 --> 00:45:38.560 very well, but it would be a bit more 00:45:40.680 --> 00:45:40.840 watchable if the webcam frames were lined up 00:45:42.660 --> 00:45:42.920 vertically on 1 side, because it would allow 00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:44.920 the screen share frames to be larger and 00:45:47.080 --> 00:45:47.560 would make much better use of the viewable 00:45:49.740 --> 00:45:50.240 space. Maybe worth a bug report to upstream. 00:45:53.080 --> 00:45:53.420 And I agree, BBB has been really good. 00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:54.900 Amine, did you want to say something? 00:45:55.120 --> 00:45:55.240 [Speaker 3]: I'm going 00:45:56.760 --> 00:45:56.880 [Speaker 1]: to continue and then I'll add something at 00:45:56.960 --> 00:45:57.460 the end. 00:45:59.960 --> 00:46:00.100 [Speaker 4]: Okay, sure. So BBB has been really good for 00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:04.940 us. It allows us to have many parallel rooms 00:46:07.700 --> 00:46:07.800 which are all recording service side at the 00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:10.120 same time. And it's wonderful for us because 00:46:11.260 --> 00:46:11.580 we can gather. At some point, 00:46:13.520 --> 00:46:13.820 I think last year, we had 4 concurrent talks 00:46:15.220 --> 00:46:15.360 being recorded because people were just so 00:46:17.040 --> 00:46:17.540 interested in what was going on in rooms. 00:46:19.040 --> 00:46:19.540 And you know, we only, 00:46:21.660 --> 00:46:22.160 like this year, the co-organizers, 00:46:23.720 --> 00:46:23.940 it's the 5 people you see in a room 00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:26.880 currently. And if we had all of us to be in a 00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:28.580 separate room, having to record on the 00:46:29.340 --> 00:46:29.640 machine, it wouldn't work. 00:46:32.120 --> 00:46:32.280 So we are able to demultiply the amount of 00:46:33.560 --> 00:46:34.060 content that we produce thanks to BBB, 00:46:37.540 --> 00:46:37.700 but sadly, we are also quite limited by the 00:46:39.560 --> 00:46:39.720 interface of BBB. Another problem that is 00:46:43.860 --> 00:46:44.360 dear to me is that audio tends to be fairly 00:46:46.240 --> 00:46:46.740 bad at some points depending on the speakers 00:46:50.080 --> 00:46:50.580 because BBB has really funky audio correction 00:46:51.500 --> 00:46:51.820 stuff going in the background, 00:46:52.540 --> 00:46:52.900 and sometimes it works, 00:46:53.760 --> 00:46:54.260 sometimes it doesn't work, 00:46:55.480 --> 00:46:55.980 and especially on my machine, 00:46:58.320 --> 00:46:58.480 the specs are above in the document if you're 00:47:02.040 --> 00:47:02.220 interested, but BBB and OBS do not play well 00:47:04.640 --> 00:47:04.820 at all. You might have heard me speaking with 00:47:06.120 --> 00:47:06.500 some clicks in my voice at some point. 00:47:07.600 --> 00:47:08.100 That's another problem of BBB. 00:47:09.240 --> 00:47:09.520 Anyway, I mean, you wanted to add something 00:47:09.720 --> 00:47:10.220 as well. 00:47:14.060 --> 00:47:14.340 [Speaker 1]: Right, yeah, I kind of empathize and also 00:47:17.220 --> 00:47:17.640 emphasize the problems with audio on BBB 00:47:19.860 --> 00:47:20.360 sometimes, but about the specific suggestion 00:47:22.540 --> 00:47:22.760 here of like lighting things up at least 00:47:24.780 --> 00:47:24.960 visually, I think that's like much more 00:47:26.940 --> 00:47:27.440 doable even if you don't open a bug upstream. 00:47:30.140 --> 00:47:30.520 I believe the Free Software Foundation for 00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:31.860 their LibrePlanet conference, 00:47:33.740 --> 00:47:34.200 either last year or the year before, 00:47:36.500 --> 00:47:36.760 they had some custom, like clients signed 00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:38.500 into browser, custom CSS, 00:47:40.520 --> 00:47:40.720 where it would do exactly something like 00:47:44.440 --> 00:47:44.820 that. It would like enlarge the shared screen 00:47:46.840 --> 00:47:47.000 on the 1 side and then stack up all of the 00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:48.280 webcam feeds on 1 side. 00:47:50.280 --> 00:47:50.440 So we might be able to use something like 00:47:50.440 --> 00:47:50.940 that. 00:47:53.040 --> 00:47:53.540 [Speaker 3]: So I'll tack on to that. 00:47:56.760 --> 00:47:56.880 And now I feel like a heel as soon as I 00:47:59.340 --> 00:47:59.500 opened my mouth, because I think I almost get 00:48:01.480 --> 00:48:01.720 the sense Floyd wants to jump in here and 00:48:03.680 --> 00:48:03.840 we're all talking, everyone except Sasha who 00:48:06.420 --> 00:48:06.660 actually wrote OBS, you know, 00:48:10.680 --> 00:48:10.920 the OBS WebSocket plugin that is probably the 00:48:12.100 --> 00:48:12.600 answer to all the different questions 00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:13.480 everyone is bringing up. 00:48:15.060 --> 00:48:15.420 So I guess I'll leave my input at that And 00:48:16.680 --> 00:48:16.800 Chloe, did you have anything to say, 00:48:17.720 --> 00:48:18.220 or can we pick on Sasha? 00:48:20.460 --> 00:48:20.960 [Speaker 6]: Nothing to say. 00:48:25.120 --> 00:48:25.320 [Speaker 0]: I need to update the OBS WebSocket plugin for 00:48:27.260 --> 00:48:27.440 the protocol change, because I think the 00:48:29.040 --> 00:48:29.540 protocol change was from 4 to 5. 00:48:32.080 --> 00:48:32.300 It's 1 of those things that I haven't gotten 00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:35.580 [Speaker 1]: Cool. But 00:48:37.120 --> 00:48:37.280 [Speaker 0]: around to. yeah, so we'll try to solve it in 00:48:41.240 --> 00:48:41.380 CSS. So if I can tinker with the CSS or if 00:48:44.160 --> 00:48:44.380 somebody else would like to volunteer to move 00:48:45.720 --> 00:48:46.220 things around, then that would be fantastic 00:48:48.040 --> 00:48:48.540 because front-end should be things. 00:48:53.480 --> 00:48:53.600 Okay, oh, what order of magnitude hours do 00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:55.520 you each of you think you devote to the 00:48:58.260 --> 00:48:58.580 conference yearly? I have I expected someone 00:48:59.540 --> 00:49:00.040 would ask this question. 00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:08.120 So I have I have my the past 11 years of time 00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:11.400 analysis. This is my Emacs category, 00:49:12.780 --> 00:49:13.280 so it also includes Emacs news. 00:49:15.660 --> 00:49:16.160 So this is my Emacs hours by month and year. 00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:18.420 So you can see last year, 00:49:21.140 --> 00:49:21.640 it spiked up a lot. But this year, 00:49:23.100 --> 00:49:23.440 it has taken less time. 00:49:26.260 --> 00:49:26.760 So last month, it was about 93 hours. 00:49:29.020 --> 00:49:29.520 And the month before that was just about 87 00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:31.880 hours of prep. And this actually includes 00:49:33.240 --> 00:49:33.740 things like captioning and, 00:49:36.260 --> 00:49:36.340 and coordination. And then you can see a 00:49:38.560 --> 00:49:38.940 little bit of time here like the EMAX news 00:49:42.040 --> 00:49:42.440 and and harvesting q&a and adding chapter 00:49:43.780 --> 00:49:44.280 index indices and things like that. 00:49:47.960 --> 00:49:48.460 So I, I like it, it's it's my form of fun. 00:49:50.540 --> 00:49:50.640 And Otherwise, I'm mostly just, 00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:53.460 you know, helping the kiddo go to play dates 00:49:54.320 --> 00:49:54.820 and carrying things around. 00:49:57.280 --> 00:49:57.500 And, you know, so this is the stuff that I do 00:49:58.260 --> 00:49:58.760 to keep my brain happy. 00:50:00.060 --> 00:50:00.320 And if you're wondering, 00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:01.860 okay, well, do you sleep? 00:50:03.520 --> 00:50:03.820 That's the next question I expected people 00:50:04.840 --> 00:50:05.060 ask. The answer is yes, 00:50:06.420 --> 00:50:06.660 we still actually do manage to sleep, 00:50:09.640 --> 00:50:09.800 or at least I do. Less so now that I have a 00:50:10.760 --> 00:50:11.260 kid, this is like 2016, 00:50:13.100 --> 00:50:13.260 had a kiddo, and then suddenly much less 00:50:14.640 --> 00:50:14.800 sleep, but still a reasonable amount of 00:50:16.780 --> 00:50:17.280 sleep. So Emacs stuff happens, 00:50:19.600 --> 00:50:20.100 I can still sleep, and it's a lot of fun. 00:50:23.260 --> 00:50:23.760 [Speaker 4]: Now that's data for you folks. 00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:27.460 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, we can't top that at all. 00:50:30.420 --> 00:50:30.820 [Speaker 0]: It's a blog post also, 00:50:30.820 --> 00:50:31.320 yeah. 00:50:33.160 --> 00:50:33.340 [Speaker 4]: Especially, you start like this, 00:50:36.540 --> 00:50:37.040 how do you expect all of us to say anything 00:50:38.680 --> 00:50:38.740 after this? Whatever we say is not going to 00:50:40.560 --> 00:50:40.680 be backed up by data, it's not going to be as 00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:42.520 many hours, and it's not going to be as 00:50:43.180 --> 00:50:43.680 qualitative in general. 00:50:53.640 --> 00:50:53.900 I can remark on something because for me it's 00:50:56.040 --> 00:50:56.540 my fourth year helping to organize EmacsConf 00:50:59.280 --> 00:50:59.780 and there's a definite change this year. 00:51:02.480 --> 00:51:02.980 I did spend, usually I get into EmacsConf 00:51:05.640 --> 00:51:06.040 mode in late September when I start worrying 00:51:07.900 --> 00:51:08.080 about the CFP, the call for proposal is 00:51:09.720 --> 00:51:10.080 finishing, and then we need to start running 00:51:12.580 --> 00:51:12.780 after speakers to secure the proposals to 00:51:13.860 --> 00:51:14.360 make sure, oh, can you do this? 00:51:16.500 --> 00:51:16.680 Can you do maybe a 10-minute format instead 00:51:17.400 --> 00:51:17.560 of a 20-minute format, 00:51:18.760 --> 00:51:19.260 you know, all this jazzy stuff. 00:51:21.820 --> 00:51:22.020 And usually it kind of looks like Sasha for 00:51:22.940 --> 00:51:23.400 me in terms of involvement, 00:51:24.900 --> 00:51:25.400 or at least it did for the previous year. 00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:29.300 But this year, now that I've been gainfully 00:51:30.220 --> 00:51:30.720 employed as a software developer, 00:51:33.760 --> 00:51:33.900 I found it much harder to find the time to 00:51:36.500 --> 00:51:36.660 invest into MaxComp. But 1 of the things that 00:51:39.520 --> 00:51:39.800 allowed me to still stay efficient at my day 00:51:42.100 --> 00:51:42.260 job is the fact that I knew that Sasha and 00:51:43.680 --> 00:51:44.180 all the work that we did in previous years 00:51:46.240 --> 00:51:46.560 would come to help us organize this year's 00:51:48.160 --> 00:51:48.560 conference. And I'm not kidding, 00:51:49.900 --> 00:51:50.140 this year, I've been keeping an eye, 00:51:51.300 --> 00:51:51.480 obviously, and we've been chatting with all 00:51:53.860 --> 00:51:54.340 the organizers, but it's mostly been Sasha 00:51:56.880 --> 00:51:57.080 holding the fort from the end of the CFP in 00:52:00.060 --> 00:52:00.560 September to right about end of November. 00:52:02.220 --> 00:52:02.720 So I'll use the opportunity, 00:52:04.780 --> 00:52:05.160 as well my fellow co-organizers will, 00:52:07.300 --> 00:52:07.480 to thank you Sasha for putting so much time 00:52:09.720 --> 00:52:09.900 and energy into this. Not only Sasha from 00:52:11.680 --> 00:52:11.920 this year, but also Sasha from last year, 00:52:12.840 --> 00:52:13.340 and last year, and last year. 00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:20.160 And I will not be able to give you a figure 00:52:20.840 --> 00:52:21.000 of how much time it takes. 00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:23.220 I can tell you that the 2 days of Emacs Con 00:52:28.180 --> 00:52:28.380 are a bloody marathon because we cannot share 00:52:31.060 --> 00:52:31.220 our screens with you, but Sasha has given you 00:52:32.220 --> 00:52:32.580 a little bit of pointers about, 00:52:34.080 --> 00:52:34.580 you know, how much stuff we need to monitor. 00:52:36.560 --> 00:52:36.820 Sasha just switches constantly between 00:52:38.860 --> 00:52:39.320 workspaces. I just put everything on 1 00:52:41.400 --> 00:52:41.900 workspace and my screen looks absolutely 00:52:44.480 --> 00:52:44.920 mental. And then I wonder why my microphone 00:52:46.020 --> 00:52:46.520 is clipping on BVB, I suppose. 00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:47.540 All right, that's all for me. 00:52:48.900 --> 00:52:49.040 Anyone wants to say anything about how much 00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:50.420 time it takes? Sasha, please. 00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:53.000 [Speaker 0]: I have a nice setup this year because I 00:52:55.840 --> 00:52:55.960 actually have a Matthew Lent donated a 00:52:57.440 --> 00:52:57.660 computer to me that can handle the big 00:53:00.240 --> 00:53:00.420 monitor and I'm stealing my husband's big 00:53:01.100 --> 00:53:01.280 monitor over there. See, 00:53:02.240 --> 00:53:02.740 So this is my setup today. 00:53:05.600 --> 00:53:06.020 It's got like conference stuff on my laptop 00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:09.240 and then just IOC on the other big screen and 00:53:10.640 --> 00:53:11.000 the 480p so I can see, 00:53:12.340 --> 00:53:12.840 I can make sure it doesn't fall down. 00:53:14.900 --> 00:53:15.400 Yes, so I have a nice setup today. 00:53:22.260 --> 00:53:22.400 [Speaker 4]: Anyone wants to comment about how much time 00:53:24.160 --> 00:53:24.360 it takes for them to organize the MaxCon for 00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:25.940 2, you know, including everything, 00:53:26.580 --> 00:53:27.080 be it the brainstorming, 00:53:28.940 --> 00:53:29.440 the answering volunteers and stuff like this? 00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:31.640 Or we can move to another question, 00:53:31.800 --> 00:53:32.300 of course. 00:53:34.600 --> 00:53:34.960 [Speaker 1]: I mean, I know for myself, 00:53:36.180 --> 00:53:36.580 I kind of dropped the ball this year, 00:53:38.940 --> 00:53:39.440 somewhat unintentionally or unintentionally. 00:53:41.640 --> 00:53:42.040 Well, yeah, I didn't have any other choice, 00:53:44.280 --> 00:53:44.780 basically, at least in like September through 00:53:46.940 --> 00:53:47.440 like early November or mid November. 00:53:51.100 --> 00:53:51.500 But I think like, it sort of differs, 00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:52.820 I guess, from year to year. 00:53:53.520 --> 00:53:54.020 Sometimes life happens, 00:53:57.900 --> 00:53:58.400 and no matter how much you would love to put 00:53:59.540 --> 00:53:59.880 a ton of time into something, 00:54:01.620 --> 00:54:01.820 you just can't. And maybe next year you can 00:54:04.340 --> 00:54:04.540 do a lot more. So I'm optimistic I'll be able 00:54:07.080 --> 00:54:07.260 to put in much more time into things for 00:54:09.580 --> 00:54:10.080 EmacsConf next year, but that's just me. 00:54:12.360 --> 00:54:12.560 [Speaker 4]: I just want to say something before Robin 00:54:13.900 --> 00:54:14.400 drops in. Sasha, go please first. 00:54:18.800 --> 00:54:19.120 [Speaker 0]: And I think people shouldn't like feel bad 00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:20.780 about having those. I think designing 00:54:24.120 --> 00:54:24.280 conference systems or processes so that they 00:54:26.800 --> 00:54:27.300 can take advantage of little pockets of time 00:54:30.460 --> 00:54:30.680 is the way to go. I love the fact that we now 00:54:33.200 --> 00:54:33.360 have a system where hosts can show up on the 00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:35.680 day of and just rock it, 00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:37.380 right? So this is great. 00:54:41.580 --> 00:54:42.080 It is good that we can get by with less time 00:54:43.940 --> 00:54:44.120 throughout the process and just take 00:54:45.660 --> 00:54:46.160 advantage of whatever time people have. 00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:47.180 Whether it's, you know, 00:54:49.120 --> 00:54:49.280 they've got 2 hours, they want to caption a 00:54:51.560 --> 00:54:52.040 talk, that sort of stuff is already totally 00:54:52.040 --> 00:54:52.540 awesome. 00:54:57.480 --> 00:54:57.980 [Speaker 3]: And yeah, you both, thank you. 00:55:00.820 --> 00:55:01.020 Yeah, you both stole my Thunder and then put 00:55:03.880 --> 00:55:04.120 a quarterback in me. I couldn't agree more 00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:05.280 with everything you said. 00:55:09.020 --> 00:55:09.220 That's something that just typifies what is 00:55:10.360 --> 00:55:10.860 amazing about this conference, 00:55:12.340 --> 00:55:12.840 right? It's a kind of accessibility, 00:55:17.120 --> 00:55:17.500 isn't it? Having some work I can give you 00:55:19.380 --> 00:55:19.880 that helps you give back to your community 00:55:21.340 --> 00:55:21.840 that is at your level, 00:55:23.300 --> 00:55:23.800 that fits your time budget, 00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:27.120 that is something that you're willing to go 00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:28.780 care about because it intersects, 00:55:31.400 --> 00:55:31.780 you know, the world you live in in some 00:55:34.240 --> 00:55:34.540 practical way and therefore you can make time 00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:37.860 for it. We all live in a lot of different 00:55:40.520 --> 00:55:40.600 trenches and making them intersect is 1 of 00:55:42.500 --> 00:55:43.000 the things Emacs does in a technical way 00:55:43.820 --> 00:55:44.020 [Speaker 5]: and 00:55:47.260 --> 00:55:47.580 [Speaker 3]: through this conference at least in a very 00:55:51.100 --> 00:55:51.340 community way. Okay, and it brings me back 00:55:52.360 --> 00:55:52.680 also on the OBS front. 00:55:54.080 --> 00:55:54.240 And I think that's what really excited me 00:55:56.260 --> 00:55:56.580 too. When I think about the potential that's 00:55:59.440 --> 00:55:59.940 out there and getting a bunch of people 00:56:01.960 --> 00:56:02.080 looking at the work you've already done with 00:56:03.960 --> 00:56:04.440 OBS WebSocket and thinking about, 00:56:06.660 --> 00:56:06.960 you know, oh, we want more timers that count 00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:09.340 things down and we want each organizer to be 00:56:10.680 --> 00:56:11.040 able to have a little palette of them, 00:56:12.780 --> 00:56:12.940 some of which are gonna be handed to you by 00:56:14.620 --> 00:56:14.760 the conference director and some of which you 00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:17.240 can add yourself because they help you and 00:56:19.600 --> 00:56:20.020 that's right. And, you know, 00:56:21.780 --> 00:56:22.120 have, you know, keeping things really fast 00:56:24.120 --> 00:56:24.620 and loose so we can make the artistic 00:56:26.880 --> 00:56:27.340 decisions on the fly that make our conference 00:56:30.340 --> 00:56:30.840 what it is, but then making, 00:56:33.480 --> 00:56:33.740 you know, a simple automated tool chain that 00:56:36.380 --> 00:56:36.560 anyone can learn and that we know how to 00:56:37.700 --> 00:56:38.200 execute the steps of manually. 00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:41.280 That's the actual design pattern that you've 00:56:42.980 --> 00:56:43.480 implemented here that's working so well. 00:56:47.460 --> 00:56:47.580 So the 00:56:50.080 --> 00:56:50.540 [Speaker 4]: 1 thing I wanted to ask about Amin saying, 00:56:51.600 --> 00:56:52.100 oh, I've dropped the ball this year. 00:56:53.600 --> 00:56:53.940 Amin's, just to be clear with everyone, 00:56:55.380 --> 00:56:55.520 Amin's definition of dropping the ball is 00:56:56.940 --> 00:56:57.360 securing a sponsorship with the FSF. 00:56:58.680 --> 00:56:59.180 So that's dropping the ball for you. 00:57:02.320 --> 00:57:02.720 [Speaker 3]: Well attending a weekly meeting, 00:57:04.480 --> 00:57:04.640 We take 1 week off a month where we 00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:08.720 coordinate infrastructure issues between this 00:57:13.200 --> 00:57:13.440 and other FSF supported projects using quote 00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:14.820 unquote GNU infrastructure. 00:57:16.860 --> 00:57:17.360 That's kind of a, GNU is really an umbrella 00:57:19.220 --> 00:57:19.720 term once you get kind of close to it. 00:57:22.220 --> 00:57:22.400 You know, it's like GNU is all of the 00:57:25.020 --> 00:57:25.240 volunteers helping with this vision we have 00:57:25.840 --> 00:57:26.340 of user rights. 00:57:31.380 --> 00:57:31.560 [Speaker 4]: 1 last thing I wanted to add about how much 00:57:32.220 --> 00:57:32.480 time we spend on this. 00:57:33.900 --> 00:57:34.400 It's just the fact that we've experimented 00:57:36.180 --> 00:57:36.380 over the 4 years I've been part of this. 00:57:38.480 --> 00:57:38.760 You know, the first year we had so many 00:57:40.720 --> 00:57:40.840 meetings because we thought this would be the 00:57:42.640 --> 00:57:42.800 way to know 1 another and this would be the 00:57:44.280 --> 00:57:44.780 way to create qualitative notes. 00:57:46.520 --> 00:57:46.560 And we've come back to this. 00:57:48.180 --> 00:57:48.340 [Speaker 3]: That is what I saw. I can't help but 00:57:49.940 --> 00:57:50.440 interrupt you again. This is all I do. 00:57:52.080 --> 00:57:52.580 Leo This is why I keep off the microphone 00:57:54.060 --> 00:57:54.440 until the last 20 minutes of the conference 00:57:56.580 --> 00:57:56.760 once everybody already wants to hang up Then 00:57:58.940 --> 00:57:59.080 I know you'll be honest with me But I have to 00:58:01.880 --> 00:58:02.240 say when I looked at that table of data all I 00:58:05.280 --> 00:58:05.440 saw was 200 hours of Sasha's life that she 00:58:06.940 --> 00:58:07.240 spent talking to the, you know, 00:58:08.360 --> 00:58:08.680 all many of us were involved. 00:58:10.960 --> 00:58:11.320 It's not just the 4 or 5 of us that, 00:58:13.160 --> 00:58:13.460 you know, that have done this last 2 years 00:58:14.440 --> 00:58:14.940 convention, right? It's, 00:58:17.120 --> 00:58:17.260 you know, there's been many people that have 00:58:19.340 --> 00:58:19.780 come in, shared wise thoughts, 00:58:22.120 --> 00:58:22.420 helping us form the, I don't know, 00:58:24.400 --> 00:58:24.620 ethos or all of the things that we're 00:58:26.680 --> 00:58:27.180 carrying forward into 2024. 00:58:31.460 --> 00:58:31.960 Sorry, Leo. 00:58:32.640 --> 00:58:32.880 [Speaker 1]: No, no, 00:58:33.560 --> 00:58:33.940 [Speaker 4]: you're fine, You're fine. 00:58:35.980 --> 00:58:36.060 I mean, you pretty much continued with what I 00:58:37.500 --> 00:58:38.000 was going to talk about. 00:58:41.040 --> 00:58:41.540 So I'm looking at the time and I've already 00:58:44.640 --> 00:58:44.700 extended by 5 minutes the amount of time I 00:58:46.640 --> 00:58:46.800 was supposed to stay and Flowy is looking at 00:58:50.320 --> 00:58:50.660 me with very teary eyes because he's thinking 00:58:51.900 --> 00:58:52.280 about the meeting he's going to have at 9am 00:58:53.440 --> 00:58:53.940 tomorrow, as will I by the way. 00:58:54.720 --> 00:58:54.920 Yeah, don't you have to 00:58:56.380 --> 00:58:56.760 [Speaker 3]: be commuting like right now Flowy? 00:58:58.200 --> 00:58:58.700 I mean aren't you supposed to be... 00:59:01.560 --> 00:59:01.840 I hope you get to sleep before work. 00:59:04.820 --> 00:59:04.960 Thank you so much for your awesome work this 00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:05.460 year. 00:59:07.360 --> 00:59:07.680 [Speaker 6]: I mean, I didn't do so much at the Emojis 00:59:09.100 --> 00:59:09.600 Conference, so I'm just here like from 00:59:13.180 --> 00:59:13.320 Friday. At first, I was looking at the 00:59:14.760 --> 00:59:15.060 website, which talks we're having, 00:59:17.860 --> 00:59:18.040 So it's all fine. So maybe next year or the 00:59:19.740 --> 00:59:19.960 coming year, I can do a little bit more 00:59:19.960 --> 00:59:20.460 privacy. 00:59:23.260 --> 00:59:23.760 [Speaker 4]: A little more, like again, 00:59:25.920 --> 00:59:26.420 like with Amin, Flowy's definition of doing, 00:59:30.240 --> 00:59:30.400 not having done much is hosting 1 of many of 00:59:34.120 --> 00:59:34.240 the Dev talks. So you could be kind of 00:59:35.680 --> 00:59:36.140 worried about it. All right, 00:59:38.480 --> 00:59:38.720 folks, considering the question that we have 00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:40.640 right now, we still see people adding 00:59:42.260 --> 00:59:42.620 questions, but I think we are all pretty 00:59:44.960 --> 00:59:45.060 tired and we need to get on with the rest of 00:59:46.280 --> 00:59:46.780 our weekends or nights. 00:59:49.740 --> 00:59:50.080 So do I go into parting words now everyone? 00:59:50.720 --> 00:59:51.220 Are we okay with this? 00:59:55.280 --> 00:59:55.680 I'll take this for a yes. 00:59:56.780 --> 00:59:57.280 I'll ask Sasha, yeah? 01:00:00.780 --> 01:00:01.080 [Speaker 0]: Oh I think I basically have until the kiddo 01:00:03.560 --> 01:00:03.760 yells at me to come for dinner so I can hang 01:00:04.440 --> 01:00:04.940 out with people after. 01:00:09.240 --> 01:00:09.740 and do the wrapping up. 01:00:09.920 --> 01:00:10.080 [Speaker 3]: But I 01:00:10.080 --> 01:00:10.440 [Speaker 4]: All right, splendid. Go ahead know, 01:00:12.100 --> 01:00:12.600 right, I'll do the wrapping up for the 01:00:13.860 --> 01:00:14.040 perhaps the stream. We might leave it up 01:00:16.360 --> 01:00:16.700 because there's no impetus for us to close 01:00:20.100 --> 01:00:20.280 it. But at least to officially close while 01:00:22.340 --> 01:00:22.840 we're still there, EmacsConf 2023, 01:00:25.480 --> 01:00:25.900 I will have again to thank everyone, 01:00:28.200 --> 01:00:28.700 all the speakers, all my co-organizers for 01:00:31.020 --> 01:00:31.160 making this possible. You've seen all the 01:00:32.120 --> 01:00:32.260 care that we put into it, 01:00:34.900 --> 01:00:35.320 and we are glad every year that all this work 01:00:37.940 --> 01:00:38.440 is doing something in terms of community 01:00:41.420 --> 01:00:41.600 building, in terms of leading more people to 01:00:42.880 --> 01:00:43.380 join us every year as speakers, 01:00:45.040 --> 01:00:45.540 or just join us as a user of Emacs. 01:00:49.940 --> 01:00:50.100 And it's always a pleasure to organize the 01:00:51.140 --> 01:00:51.640 conference, to host it, 01:00:53.360 --> 01:00:53.620 and to work with everyone in the room 01:00:56.840 --> 01:00:57.340 currently. Corwin and I are constantly joking 01:00:59.640 --> 01:01:00.140 when we are backstage making jokes. 01:01:03.540 --> 01:01:03.840 I think it's Corwin we said last year during 01:01:06.620 --> 01:01:06.900 the closing remarks that there was no other 01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:09.500 place they'd rather be than in the backstage. 01:01:12.800 --> 01:01:12.940 And for me, even though many things have 01:01:15.040 --> 01:01:15.360 changed in my life over the last year, 01:01:16.240 --> 01:01:16.740 many good things have happened, 01:01:19.640 --> 01:01:19.860 it's good to come back to Emacs Cons as this 01:01:22.080 --> 01:01:22.580 milestone and say, oh yeah, 01:01:23.960 --> 01:01:24.220 I'm exactly where I want to be, 01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:25.820 with the people I want to be with, 01:01:29.020 --> 01:01:29.220 and I see myself and I cannot wait to see 01:01:30.660 --> 01:01:31.080 myself again in the situation next year. 01:01:32.080 --> 01:01:32.580 So thank you so much everyone. 01:01:34.440 --> 01:01:34.640 If you want to join us, 01:01:36.100 --> 01:01:36.180 ask questions, we'll still be here for a 01:01:37.360 --> 01:01:37.640 while. Floey might drop out, 01:01:39.520 --> 01:01:40.020 I might drop out, Sasha might drop out, 01:01:41.600 --> 01:01:41.880 but we'll be here to answer as many questions 01:01:43.140 --> 01:01:43.640 as you want for as long as we can. 01:01:46.120 --> 01:01:46.280 Bye bye everyone and let's get started with 01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:47.300 the after show now. 01:01:51.540 --> 01:01:52.040 [Speaker 0]: Bye Leo, bye Chloe! I'll drop out eventually 01:01:53.000 --> 01:01:53.500 when the kiddo yells at me. 01:01:56.200 --> 01:01:56.440 [Speaker 3]: I can't tell you how much fun this is, 01:01:58.260 --> 01:01:58.440 yeah. The way to remember what I said, 01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:00.700 Leo, it's 100% true. Oh man, 01:02:01.380 --> 01:02:01.640 turning off your lights, 01:02:02.880 --> 01:02:03.220 I'm doing it. I'm doing it too. 01:02:04.600 --> 01:02:04.900 Sorry y'all. Oh, yeah, 01:02:05.380 --> 01:02:05.880 bye-bye lights 01:02:10.440 --> 01:02:10.760 [Speaker 4]: Yeah, that's every year that's how we finish 01:02:12.340 --> 01:02:12.500 we just turn off the the big lights that we 01:02:14.240 --> 01:02:14.440 have in our faces all the day especially the 01:02:14.440 --> 01:02:14.940 hosts 01:02:19.120 --> 01:02:19.460 [Speaker 3]: and Tell me if there's too much back chatter 01:02:22.700 --> 01:02:23.200 [Speaker 5]: get off my headphones, 01:02:24.280 --> 01:02:24.720 too, so I can 01:02:25.260 --> 01:02:25.760 [Speaker 3]: when I hear you in the room. 01:02:28.860 --> 01:02:29.360 Can I hear you now? Yeah. 01:02:31.960 --> 01:02:32.460 Is it feeding back pretty bad? 01:02:34.480 --> 01:02:34.980 [Speaker 1]: Hello? there is some echo. 01:02:37.460 --> 01:02:37.960 [Speaker 4]: Yeah, there is some echo. 01:02:41.200 --> 01:02:41.380 [Speaker 3]: I think Okay. Fine. I can live with my 01:02:42.160 --> 01:02:42.660 headset a little longer. 01:02:44.860 --> 01:02:45.360 I give 1 ear a break at a time. 01:02:47.140 --> 01:02:47.640 [Speaker 1]: Thanks for your sacrifice. 01:02:50.060 --> 01:02:50.560 [Speaker 3]: Oh, well, you know, it's a small, 01:02:53.080 --> 01:02:53.360 small, small price to pay to get to smooth 01:02:56.600 --> 01:02:56.820 with y'all. Yeah, I was just looking at that 01:02:58.580 --> 01:02:58.820 chart and I was thinking about all of those 01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:01.560 meetings that we had like 18 months we were 01:03:05.900 --> 01:03:06.400 just on this death march to organize this and 01:03:09.240 --> 01:03:09.520 it's just such an amazing accomplishment that 01:03:11.960 --> 01:03:12.140 you you have here Sasha like I'm sorry to 01:03:14.540 --> 01:03:14.760 pick on you personally but the work that you 01:03:16.680 --> 01:03:17.180 put in keep being able to keep it the whole 01:03:18.760 --> 01:03:19.260 technical project in your mind, 01:03:21.580 --> 01:03:21.760 all the way down to presenting it at this 01:03:24.100 --> 01:03:24.480 year's conference and like kind of spoon 01:03:26.380 --> 01:03:26.520 feeding it to people that want to run off in 01:03:27.900 --> 01:03:28.260 their own damn direction and then handing 01:03:31.480 --> 01:03:31.880 them an org is the 1 that people keep bugging 01:03:33.440 --> 01:03:33.940 us about. So if you're looking for a project, 01:03:37.340 --> 01:03:37.840 here it is. Just really well done. 01:03:43.540 --> 01:03:43.980 I no longer feel like we wasted a lot of time 01:03:46.460 --> 01:03:46.680 there. I mean, you remember I enjoyed so much 01:03:48.600 --> 01:03:49.100 all of our check ins and all of that stuff. 01:03:51.420 --> 01:03:51.920 But we had so many ideas, 01:03:53.480 --> 01:03:53.980 you can imagine that I wondered, 01:03:56.980 --> 01:03:57.160 you know, I wondered if we should have had 01:03:58.520 --> 01:03:58.700 more focused meetings and all that. 01:04:01.100 --> 01:04:01.360 And I was glad when we stopped having like 01:04:04.240 --> 01:04:04.540 weekly meetings, because you know what I mean 01:04:06.980 --> 01:04:07.120 To keep this much power in the room once a 01:04:08.160 --> 01:04:08.660 week, it feels creepy. 01:04:10.560 --> 01:04:11.060 This much intellectual power. 01:04:18.525 --> 01:04:18.820 Anyway, that's it. I think that's it for me. 01:04:19.600 --> 01:04:19.760 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, and I'll say, I mean, 01:04:22.280 --> 01:04:22.540 I can't obviously speak for Sash or anyone 01:04:24.840 --> 01:04:24.940 else. Yeah, the regular meetings were a 01:04:26.980 --> 01:04:27.180 little bit intense than we had the year 01:04:29.540 --> 01:04:29.680 before, but I'm kind of also super glad that 01:04:31.840 --> 01:04:32.040 we did do them. And, you know, 01:04:34.840 --> 01:04:34.960 in a way, it did help us sort of connect and 01:04:38.180 --> 01:04:38.360 get to know each other much more regularly or 01:04:41.200 --> 01:04:41.440 much more which is great and I see thumbs up 01:04:44.900 --> 01:04:45.060 from Leo and Corwin so yeah happy we did 01:04:49.080 --> 01:04:49.280 them. Might want to have some kind of 01:04:51.820 --> 01:04:52.040 actually irregular ones every once in a while 01:04:53.400 --> 01:04:53.860 if we have to decide on something. 01:04:55.240 --> 01:04:55.520 But if like this year, 01:04:57.400 --> 01:04:57.600 everything can be worked out pretty much ad 01:04:58.780 --> 01:04:59.020 hoc, whenever needs be, 01:05:00.480 --> 01:05:00.980 like over asynchronous communications. 01:05:03.640 --> 01:05:04.140 I see Sasha nodding very excitedly. 01:05:07.820 --> 01:05:08.320 This also works. So yeah. 01:05:10.920 --> 01:05:11.420 And I also see some questions coming in here 01:05:14.580 --> 01:05:15.040 in BBB. If other folks want to join, 01:05:16.280 --> 01:05:16.780 please feel free to do that as well. 01:05:18.800 --> 01:05:19.300 Yeah, I don't think we have an issue tracker 01:05:22.440 --> 01:05:22.860 right now, but our whole website is a wiki. 01:05:24.780 --> 01:05:25.280 So if you wanna like create a new page or 01:05:26.180 --> 01:05:26.480 there might be a page, 01:05:28.640 --> 01:05:28.780 I don't know. You can of course go in and 01:05:29.760 --> 01:05:30.260 edit it to your heart's content. 01:05:36.540 --> 01:05:37.040 [Speaker 3]: Yeah. Hilarious, I couldn't, 01:05:39.440 --> 01:05:39.600 like I almost managed to type that as fast as 01:05:40.760 --> 01:05:41.260 you could say it, you know. 01:05:43.840 --> 01:05:43.940 That's fine. I get the same answer in the 01:05:46.620 --> 01:05:46.800 chat. Yep. Our website's a wiki and we 01:05:48.060 --> 01:05:48.260 definitely use ideas here. 01:05:50.280 --> 01:05:50.540 If you want to implement them or you know 01:05:53.100 --> 01:05:53.440 document them enough that even Corwin can 01:05:55.240 --> 01:05:55.740 code it then you know I'll do that. 01:05:58.220 --> 01:05:58.380 [Speaker 0]: Also I'll go through all the etherpads at 01:06:00.240 --> 01:06:00.480 some point to harvest them and I think I have 01:06:02.240 --> 01:06:02.480 yeah I have an Emacs list function that does 01:06:05.020 --> 01:06:05.280 this for me. So that I can go through that 01:06:06.820 --> 01:06:07.280 thing and include that in our organizers 01:06:09.060 --> 01:06:09.280 notebooks, lessons learned and ideas for next 01:06:09.280 --> 01:06:09.780 year. 01:06:11.120 --> 01:06:11.620 [Speaker 3]: Yeah. 01:06:15.010 --> 01:06:15.060 [Speaker 4]: Yeah, because something that you know, 01:06:16.280 --> 01:06:16.720 We were talking about the different models 01:06:18.680 --> 01:06:18.840 between having many, many meetings and how it 01:06:20.280 --> 01:06:20.760 paid off eventually. The thing is, 01:06:22.160 --> 01:06:22.660 this year we had no meetings. 01:06:27.440 --> 01:06:27.660 We met Friday morning on Mumble and we were 01:06:29.540 --> 01:06:29.720 ready to go. We did chat things up a little 01:06:30.180 --> 01:06:30.660 bit on ISE, obviously, 01:06:31.780 --> 01:06:32.120 but no meeting this year. 01:06:33.420 --> 01:06:33.640 So I'm tempted to say that, 01:06:34.800 --> 01:06:35.080 yes, we could have off-hand meetings, 01:06:36.360 --> 01:06:36.480 but I think it's mostly because we want to 01:06:38.240 --> 01:06:38.680 see 1 another, not because we need 01:06:40.680 --> 01:06:41.160 necessarily for those meetings to prepare 01:06:45.480 --> 01:06:45.660 Emacs cons. But what I wanted to say as well 01:06:49.740 --> 01:06:50.200 is that I think it's a testament to the bets 01:06:52.940 --> 01:06:53.140 that Sasha took last year to automatize a lot 01:06:54.520 --> 01:06:54.720 of things. I mean, we'd already been 01:06:55.760 --> 01:06:56.120 automatizing a lot of stuff, 01:06:58.260 --> 01:06:58.760 like writing scripts for every single thing 01:07:02.220 --> 01:07:02.600 in ESPire, but last year we made a big bet to 01:07:04.600 --> 01:07:04.920 say, what if we had OBS in the cloud? 01:07:06.580 --> 01:07:06.760 What if we had a streaming platform that was 01:07:08.680 --> 01:07:08.860 running on a machine? And this is what 01:07:11.660 --> 01:07:12.100 allowed us to very smoothly have 2 tracks, 01:07:13.380 --> 01:07:13.880 the general track and the dev track. 01:07:16.640 --> 01:07:16.980 And I think the beauty of this system is 01:07:19.680 --> 01:07:19.840 that, obviously, because we get more and more 01:07:20.720 --> 01:07:21.220 speakers submitting talks, 01:07:22.800 --> 01:07:23.100 we are starting to think maybe we actually 01:07:26.480 --> 01:07:26.740 need a third track or something and no 1 is 01:07:28.580 --> 01:07:29.080 stressed in the room when Sasha says this. 01:07:31.100 --> 01:07:31.360 You know, there's not the reaction that's 01:07:32.320 --> 01:07:32.540 like, oh no it's gonna be tough, 01:07:33.200 --> 01:07:33.620 we're gonna need more hosts, 01:07:34.480 --> 01:07:34.980 organizers, it's just a calm... 01:07:37.580 --> 01:07:38.040 [Speaker 3]: Now, point of order, Now Flowy is stressed 01:07:39.000 --> 01:07:39.500 when Sasha says this. 01:07:44.640 --> 01:07:45.060 [Speaker 4]: That was just a- 01:07:46.640 --> 01:07:46.800 [Speaker 0]: I didn't know, Colin, we could put you in the 01:07:47.720 --> 01:07:47.880 spot next year. You'd be like, 01:07:49.200 --> 01:07:49.400 you know, hey, Colin, what do you feel about 01:07:49.400 --> 01:07:49.900 hosting? 01:07:53.300 --> 01:07:53.800 [Speaker 3]: You know, I'm happy to do it. 01:07:56.960 --> 01:07:57.260 And I feel, I mean, just to jump in there and 01:07:59.540 --> 01:08:00.040 say, yes, exactly. No, 01:08:01.400 --> 01:08:01.560 there's no concern on the part of the 01:08:03.220 --> 01:08:03.720 organizer committee that we could expand 01:08:06.000 --> 01:08:06.180 this. If you said we needed to expand to 4 01:08:08.400 --> 01:08:08.900 tracks, I think we would gulp and consider 01:08:10.080 --> 01:08:10.360 it, you know, from there, 01:08:11.040 --> 01:08:11.540 it gets a little crazy, 01:08:13.980 --> 01:08:14.260 but strictly because there aren't that many 01:08:16.399 --> 01:08:16.899 people that we know want to commit. 01:08:18.120 --> 01:08:18.399 What did we see there? 01:08:20.600 --> 01:08:20.939 80 hours of potential work that, 01:08:23.000 --> 01:08:23.200 you know, that could go into organizing next 01:08:25.439 --> 01:08:25.580 year's conference if you find that it's a 01:08:26.979 --> 01:08:27.399 rabbit hole for you and being a streamer 01:08:28.979 --> 01:08:29.140 means you want to read every email and 01:08:31.500 --> 01:08:31.819 respond to every, as Sasha has done this last 01:08:34.439 --> 01:08:34.819 year, right? So when I look at her numbers 01:08:35.359 --> 01:08:35.859 for total participation, 01:08:38.000 --> 01:08:38.500 that's really a high watermark. 01:08:43.439 --> 01:08:43.939 Sasha really took care of this convention, 01:08:46.680 --> 01:08:47.180 you know, like a producer might. 01:08:52.240 --> 01:08:52.660 And the fact that what used to take 200 hours 01:08:56.000 --> 01:08:56.260 before, I mean, I can't harp enough on the 01:08:57.720 --> 01:08:57.979 story that that's telling you, 01:09:00.399 --> 01:09:00.800 right? And as I think about it with a project 01:09:01.800 --> 01:09:02.080 manager hat on, right? 01:09:02.960 --> 01:09:03.160 I'm saying, okay, well, 01:09:07.080 --> 01:09:07.580 that's, you know, that work can potentially 01:09:09.800 --> 01:09:09.960 be amplified to many thousands of hours of 01:09:11.800 --> 01:09:11.920 work, considering the automation and the 01:09:13.279 --> 01:09:13.439 potential for bringing people in. 01:09:14.540 --> 01:09:14.800 So if you thought about it as a money-making 01:09:16.319 --> 01:09:16.520 thing, If we were trying to make money by 01:09:16.960 --> 01:09:17.460 having these conventions, 01:09:19.040 --> 01:09:19.540 you would think we have a very profitable 01:09:23.760 --> 01:09:24.000 business here because we can amplify the 01:09:25.640 --> 01:09:25.939 talent that walks in the door really 01:09:28.140 --> 01:09:28.640 effectively, if that makes sense, 01:09:29.800 --> 01:09:30.300 through the tools and the training. 01:09:33.800 --> 01:09:33.960 [Speaker 0]: So we should clarify that if anyone wants to 01:09:35.920 --> 01:09:36.180 volunteer as a host or just check in, 01:09:38.300 --> 01:09:38.380 let's just talk host. It's really just a 01:09:40.080 --> 01:09:40.580 matter of showing up, making sure your BVB 01:09:42.160 --> 01:09:42.439 works so you can talk. 01:09:43.260 --> 01:09:43.620 If you want to share your webcam, 01:09:44.899 --> 01:09:45.040 you can. You can skip it if you don't want 01:09:46.359 --> 01:09:46.859 to. You can share the screen with the pad. 01:09:48.640 --> 01:09:48.800 And then you just sit there and you chat with 01:09:51.260 --> 01:09:51.399 a speaker and you read the questions off the 01:09:53.240 --> 01:09:53.399 pad in case they don't read the questions off 01:09:56.740 --> 01:09:57.240 themselves. So it can be a very low effort, 01:09:59.440 --> 01:09:59.940 low stress way to get into it and just there 01:10:02.840 --> 01:10:03.000 kind of helping the speaker have somebody to 01:10:05.540 --> 01:10:05.820 talk to. It doesn't have to take 80 hours. 01:10:08.220 --> 01:10:08.720 It can take 2 hours and that's cool. 01:10:10.680 --> 01:10:10.840 [Speaker 3]: And the same, and that's just like the 01:10:11.820 --> 01:10:12.040 transcription task. Yeah, 01:10:13.700 --> 01:10:13.980 sorry, I probably missed the lead there, 01:10:16.080 --> 01:10:16.360 right? Every individual part of this is 01:10:19.160 --> 01:10:19.660 really easy. So it's an open-ended commitment 01:10:22.360 --> 01:10:22.860 to come and kind of meet a part of the 01:10:24.840 --> 01:10:25.340 committee, a part of the community, 01:10:27.040 --> 01:10:27.540 right? To come in and say, 01:10:29.440 --> 01:10:29.940 maybe you're really excited about org, 01:10:33.420 --> 01:10:33.600 you could review talks and just review the 01:10:35.420 --> 01:10:35.660 org ones. There's not an obligation that says 01:10:37.440 --> 01:10:37.800 you're going to look at every talk that's 01:10:40.520 --> 01:10:40.640 submitted, right? Share your thoughts on the 01:10:42.500 --> 01:10:42.660 talks that you have a chance to review the 01:10:44.440 --> 01:10:44.900 proposals. That's the submissions review 01:10:48.040 --> 01:10:48.540 part, right? So there's a way to help with 01:10:51.820 --> 01:10:52.120 almost any appetite for I'd like a little 01:10:54.520 --> 01:10:54.780 extra work in the Emacs department here like 01:10:56.480 --> 01:10:56.640 if you want to feel like you're part of the 01:10:59.600 --> 01:10:59.800 team this this team is really easy to get 01:11:02.440 --> 01:11:02.710 [Speaker 7]: think that's 01:11:03.680 --> 01:11:03.840 [Speaker 3]: involved with. I I mean, 01:11:04.280 --> 01:11:04.440 please. Go ahead, 01:11:06.820 --> 01:11:07.320 [Speaker 4]: No, no, please. I've talked enough. 01:11:08.940 --> 01:11:09.100 [Speaker 1]: sort of the... Leo. Well, 01:11:10.380 --> 01:11:10.660 I don't get tired of hearing you talk, 01:11:13.000 --> 01:11:13.500 but yeah, I was going to say, 01:11:16.920 --> 01:11:17.320 Yeah, I feel like that's the general message 01:11:19.600 --> 01:11:19.920 here is that we're all just a bunch of people 01:11:21.360 --> 01:11:21.860 who are interested in this. 01:11:24.060 --> 01:11:24.560 And of course, being humans, 01:11:26.120 --> 01:11:26.280 each of us have different kinds of lives and 01:11:27.560 --> 01:11:27.720 different kinds of availabilities and 01:11:28.260 --> 01:11:28.760 different kinds of interests. 01:11:29.860 --> 01:11:30.360 And there is something for everybody, 01:11:34.300 --> 01:11:34.540 both in terms of the kinds of tasks that you 01:11:37.480 --> 01:11:37.760 need doing, but also in terms of the amount 01:11:39.980 --> 01:11:40.480 of time that you want or are able to put in. 01:11:43.780 --> 01:11:44.080 So yes, if you do think this is something 01:11:46.240 --> 01:11:46.700 that you might be interested in helping with 01:11:47.980 --> 01:11:48.400 for future additions and such, 01:11:51.140 --> 01:11:51.340 or even some of the post-conference work that 01:11:52.300 --> 01:11:52.800 needs doing after this year. 01:11:55.800 --> 01:11:55.960 Please reach out there's something for 01:11:57.440 --> 01:11:57.940 everybody and I would love to have 01:12:03.020 --> 01:12:03.360 [Speaker 6]: you. I can confirm there was an easy access 01:12:06.260 --> 01:12:06.500 so I came here last year just doing some 01:12:08.600 --> 01:12:09.100 checking in and the process of getting, 01:12:10.840 --> 01:12:11.120 it's called a trained in was really, 01:12:12.520 --> 01:12:12.620 really short. There was a lot of 01:12:13.700 --> 01:12:14.200 documentation how to do something. 01:12:17.720 --> 01:12:17.920 I mean, there's a pad that gets sent and what 01:12:20.540 --> 01:12:20.660 to do, when to do, and what to ask is like 01:12:22.160 --> 01:12:22.660 really incredible. So thank you for that. 01:12:26.320 --> 01:12:26.820 Just come here, write an email, 01:12:28.860 --> 01:12:29.200 join us. It's really, really cool. 01:12:30.920 --> 01:12:31.420 And it's a great experience to be honest. 01:12:35.680 --> 01:12:35.900 [Speaker 4]: Thank you. And while Sasha is speaking about 01:12:36.820 --> 01:12:37.280 the update of the wiki, 01:12:38.320 --> 01:12:38.820 oh Coleman did you want to say something? 01:12:41.140 --> 01:12:41.600 [Speaker 3]: No I was just I was just gonna embarrass 01:12:44.240 --> 01:12:44.740 Floey Coder further but you go ahead. 01:12:51.000 --> 01:12:51.200 I was just gonna say I think you're pretty 01:12:52.420 --> 01:12:52.900 quick, you're pretty quick, 01:12:55.320 --> 01:12:55.820 you took to it really quickly or you show 01:12:57.240 --> 01:12:57.740 just kind of a reflexive calm. 01:12:59.340 --> 01:12:59.720 Like you know how to not talk over people. 01:13:01.200 --> 01:13:01.700 You're already better at it than I am. 01:13:06.500 --> 01:13:07.000 Now, you know, I think, 01:13:09.000 --> 01:13:09.280 yeah, I hope you're enjoying the new stuff 01:13:10.600 --> 01:13:10.720 that you're starting to take on because you 01:13:12.040 --> 01:13:12.540 seem to be doing great with it. 01:13:14.220 --> 01:13:14.500 And yeah, I hope you're not sitting there 01:13:15.720 --> 01:13:16.080 thinking that you're taking, 01:13:17.960 --> 01:13:18.340 you know, that you're coming on, 01:13:19.700 --> 01:13:19.920 that you're not taking on enough 01:13:21.420 --> 01:13:21.680 responsibility or anything like that, 01:13:23.100 --> 01:13:23.600 or I don't know, maybe. 01:13:26.040 --> 01:13:26.240 I picked up like a little undercurrent of 01:13:28.100 --> 01:13:28.380 like, I don't do that much, 01:13:31.440 --> 01:13:31.940 and I hope you don't feel that way because I 01:13:33.719 --> 01:13:34.219 just enjoyed really having your help the last 01:13:38.680 --> 01:13:39.180 couple of years. Thank you very much. 01:13:47.640 --> 01:13:47.720 [Speaker 4]: Yeah, that's how they get you, 01:13:48.560 --> 01:13:48.680 you know, they just tell you, 01:13:49.340 --> 01:13:49.840 oh, could you do check-ins? 01:13:51.820 --> 01:13:52.180 Like I showed up for 4 years ago saying, 01:13:54.660 --> 01:13:55.080 oh, I'd like to help and look at me now. 01:13:56.780 --> 01:13:57.040 I think I did I host on the first year? 01:13:57.800 --> 01:13:58.300 I'm pretty sure I did. 01:14:00.020 --> 01:14:00.420 Like it took 2 months basically of onboarding 01:14:02.960 --> 01:14:03.160 to convince me to do some of the hosting and 01:14:06.820 --> 01:14:07.000 back then oh it was so tough for us to do the 01:14:08.440 --> 01:14:08.680 hosting because we didn't have all the fancy 01:14:10.320 --> 01:14:10.680 setup we have this year and we were 01:14:13.680 --> 01:14:14.180 struggling with OBS with bid rates with 01:14:18.160 --> 01:14:18.340 sharing scenes I'm glad we are where we are 01:14:20.460 --> 01:14:20.760 today, where I don't have to worry as much 01:14:21.880 --> 01:14:22.120 about this. But it's also nice, 01:14:24.440 --> 01:14:24.580 it's also 1 thing, we do have a culture of 01:14:25.760 --> 01:14:26.260 documentation as Sasha exemplified, 01:14:28.140 --> 01:14:28.640 and like Flo mentioned, 01:14:29.540 --> 01:14:29.820 documentation on the roles. 01:14:33.060 --> 01:14:33.560 Yes, We did do this to help people join us. 01:14:39.360 --> 01:14:39.840 But really, I'm the host of General, 01:14:41.660 --> 01:14:41.840 but it could be just anyone else because we 01:14:43.780 --> 01:14:44.020 have so much documentation on how to do 01:14:46.560 --> 01:14:46.780 things. Obviously, when a co-organizer is 01:14:48.740 --> 01:14:48.900 doing a role, we tend to have an eye on how 01:14:49.740 --> 01:14:50.160 the infrastructure is going. 01:14:51.820 --> 01:14:52.320 But really, if you want to join us, 01:14:54.720 --> 01:14:54.940 we will make sure that the jobs that you 01:14:57.240 --> 01:14:57.500 have, first, you like them and it's something 01:14:59.440 --> 01:14:59.640 that interests you, and we will also make 01:15:04.180 --> 01:15:04.400 sure that on our end, everything goes well 01:15:06.140 --> 01:15:06.640 for you. Like we'll be monitoring the streams 01:15:08.540 --> 01:15:09.040 and every time we have a new person join us, 01:15:13.500 --> 01:15:14.000 it is as much energy and mental availability 01:15:17.780 --> 01:15:18.220 to invest into, oh, maybe we could do this. 01:15:19.800 --> 01:15:19.940 Oh, 0, we have a fire going out because the 01:15:21.320 --> 01:15:21.820 speaker hasn't checked in yet. 01:15:24.060 --> 01:15:24.560 So it's all about sharing expertise, 01:15:27.180 --> 01:15:27.260 it's all about making people level up in 01:15:28.520 --> 01:15:29.020 terms of skills that are really useful. 01:15:34.120 --> 01:15:34.280 I will attribute a lot of my success in 01:15:35.920 --> 01:15:36.120 public speaking to the work I do with 01:15:38.620 --> 01:15:39.120 EmacsConf, and I'm sure plenty of people 01:15:43.420 --> 01:15:43.620 would gain from joining us and learning these 01:15:47.440 --> 01:15:47.940 skills. All right, It's about 30 minutes past 01:15:49.740 --> 01:15:49.920 the official time. Do we want to go a little 01:15:51.180 --> 01:15:51.680 longer? Are we still available to go? 01:15:55.180 --> 01:15:55.680 All right, well, let's keep going. 01:16:00.443 --> 01:16:00.486 I don't see any more people joining us on the 01:16:00.660 --> 01:16:00.703 [Speaker 1]: We have Bob, 01:16:01.240 --> 01:16:01.720 [Speaker 4]: Blue Button. who was 1 of the speakers today 01:16:03.940 --> 01:16:04.200 in the room. Bob, do you want to maybe unmute 01:16:05.400 --> 01:16:05.900 yourself and ask us some questions? 01:16:08.420 --> 01:16:08.720 Or just thank us. I mean, 01:16:09.480 --> 01:16:09.840 I'm just begging for something. 01:16:10.920 --> 01:16:11.420 But I know you've been very helpful. 01:16:15.340 --> 01:16:15.720 [Speaker 5]: Yes. How are you? No, I've really had fun. 01:16:18.340 --> 01:16:18.600 No, I'm exhausted. I'm exhausted for you, 01:16:22.800 --> 01:16:23.300 I think. So I learned something. 01:16:25.040 --> 01:16:25.460 Everybody wants to record their videos, 01:16:26.460 --> 01:16:26.940 which of course, is great, 01:16:28.380 --> 01:16:28.480 and then you have the subtitles and 01:16:31.560 --> 01:16:32.040 everything. But I saved a lot of time by 01:16:35.600 --> 01:16:35.740 doing it live this year and not going in and 01:16:38.040 --> 01:16:38.200 tweaking and doing all the editing and 01:16:39.440 --> 01:16:39.860 spending all the time that we do. 01:16:42.480 --> 01:16:42.720 And it was kind of fun to do it that way too. 01:16:44.900 --> 01:16:45.400 So just a little note there. 01:16:48.340 --> 01:16:48.640 But I look forward to seeing 1 of my talks 01:16:53.760 --> 01:16:53.940 subtitled someday. So no, 01:16:55.240 --> 01:16:55.740 I love what you do. It's fun. 01:16:57.660 --> 01:16:57.900 I've only seen part of Sasha's talk, 01:17:00.660 --> 01:17:01.000 so I'll go and review that about how you're 01:17:03.840 --> 01:17:04.340 automating all this. You know, 01:17:06.560 --> 01:17:06.680 it's a little sad for me personally that of 01:17:09.080 --> 01:17:09.580 course, Org gets all the attention, 01:17:14.060 --> 01:17:14.340 but you know, we're exposing hyperbole more 01:17:16.820 --> 01:17:17.240 now and There's definitely a growing interest 01:17:18.800 --> 01:17:19.020 on Reddit and you know, 01:17:20.140 --> 01:17:20.640 I think it's kind of like EmacsConf. 01:17:23.680 --> 01:17:23.900 Give it a few years. We went away for a long 01:17:24.840 --> 01:17:25.340 time and then we came back. 01:17:30.420 --> 01:17:30.880 We'll start to see it permeate the Emacs 01:17:33.160 --> 01:17:33.660 first. But I was thinking that, 01:17:36.720 --> 01:17:36.960 you know, I think people who like Emacs and 01:17:38.340 --> 01:17:38.840 stuff, they read things online, 01:17:40.920 --> 01:17:41.420 they come to this conference, 01:17:43.620 --> 01:17:43.940 but we're always hearing about, 01:17:44.620 --> 01:17:45.120 well, the next generation. 01:17:47.260 --> 01:17:47.500 We have to deal with that. 01:17:50.000 --> 01:17:50.160 And I think a lot of people get exposed to 01:17:52.900 --> 01:17:53.120 Emacs in college. Now a professor turns them 01:17:55.080 --> 01:17:55.460 on to it and makes them use it, 01:17:57.100 --> 01:17:57.600 and then they go out into the real world, 01:17:59.720 --> 01:18:00.220 and there's no encouragement anymore, 01:18:01.460 --> 01:18:01.960 and they just drop it. 01:18:05.600 --> 01:18:05.980 And with all of what you're putting together 01:18:09.280 --> 01:18:09.720 here, it seems like if there was some reach 01:18:14.120 --> 01:18:14.620 out to universities and college students, 01:18:18.600 --> 01:18:19.100 You know, we might get a whole new big crowd 01:18:22.360 --> 01:18:22.580 of people coming in. You know, 01:18:25.200 --> 01:18:25.320 just as I think OREG has really attracted a 01:18:26.840 --> 01:18:27.340 lot of people in the sciences, 01:18:30.060 --> 01:18:30.440 since that's what it was originally developed 01:18:32.500 --> 01:18:32.860 for. So just a thought, 01:18:35.740 --> 01:18:35.900 you know, maybe if you get any volunteers who 01:18:38.440 --> 01:18:38.940 can help in the reach out or just, 01:18:40.320 --> 01:18:40.560 you know, sending things around to 01:18:43.780 --> 01:18:44.020 universities that might really extend who 01:18:45.060 --> 01:18:45.560 gets exposed to this stuff. 01:18:49.240 --> 01:18:49.480 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, I think that's a great and very 01:18:51.960 --> 01:18:52.020 interesting idea. And it sort of touches on a 01:18:52.600 --> 01:18:53.000 couple of different things. 01:18:53.640 --> 01:18:54.140 Sort of like you mentioned, 01:18:56.180 --> 01:18:56.400 well, with org, it sort of really drew into 01:19:00.060 --> 01:19:00.560 sciences, folks. It would be interesting to 01:19:03.280 --> 01:19:03.780 see other parts of Emacs doing that for other 01:19:05.740 --> 01:19:06.240 kinds of communities, but also specifically, 01:19:08.920 --> 01:19:09.420 I guess, for colleges and universities. 01:19:14.220 --> 01:19:14.680 Yeah, it would be cool if we had local groups 01:19:17.140 --> 01:19:17.300 or local meetups, because so far right now, 01:19:20.140 --> 01:19:20.420 I think the most common ones are like by city 01:19:22.280 --> 01:19:22.440 like for example a Toronto Emacs meetup or 01:19:25.320 --> 01:19:25.760 something like that yeah if you could maybe 01:19:28.820 --> 01:19:29.320 encourage or help foster a university level 01:19:32.200 --> 01:19:32.520 type of thing you know University of blah 01:19:35.360 --> 01:19:35.860 blah Emacs group or something like that and 01:19:39.860 --> 01:19:40.080 you know seeing what their needs would be or 01:19:42.860 --> 01:19:43.360 trying to think also what features of Emacs 01:19:46.260 --> 01:19:46.560 would be very useful in an academic slash 01:19:48.680 --> 01:19:48.920 educational setting. Yeah, 01:19:50.460 --> 01:19:50.840 lots of food for thought there. 01:19:52.120 --> 01:19:52.620 So thank you for mentioning this. 01:20:02.420 --> 01:20:02.920 [Speaker 5]: Sure. And I guess, yeah, 01:20:04.400 --> 01:20:04.900 OBS is coming up here. 01:20:06.820 --> 01:20:07.040 I worked with that a bit, 01:20:08.920 --> 01:20:09.240 yes, last year. You know, 01:20:12.040 --> 01:20:12.540 another powerful piece of software with a 01:20:15.240 --> 01:20:15.740 sort of, I think, a weak user interface, 01:20:20.080 --> 01:20:20.540 you know, for the newbies coming along on it. 01:20:23.200 --> 01:20:23.700 And maybe, you know, if there's, 01:20:25.920 --> 01:20:26.420 if that's kind of what people use, 01:20:29.540 --> 01:20:29.700 figuring out or putting some information in 01:20:32.740 --> 01:20:33.240 the wiki about how to do that, 01:20:34.900 --> 01:20:35.400 you know, work with it or... 01:20:36.300 --> 01:20:36.800 [Speaker 4]: Oh, good idea. 01:20:43.140 --> 01:20:43.340 [Speaker 3]: I can comment. It is definitely the 01:20:46.420 --> 01:20:46.920 preeminent streamer software out there, 01:20:49.120 --> 01:20:49.620 well beyond the free software community. 01:20:54.120 --> 01:20:54.500 It's used by most streamers on Twitch and 01:20:59.680 --> 01:20:59.960 other like commercial for-profit things but 01:21:01.780 --> 01:21:02.220 of course those companies are making money 01:21:04.480 --> 01:21:04.700 off people trying to give money to the 01:21:07.200 --> 01:21:07.440 streamers. Those streamers aren't getting any 01:21:10.160 --> 01:21:10.660 software help. So actually most of them are 01:21:13.900 --> 01:21:14.400 dependent for their income on free software 01:21:18.680 --> 01:21:18.900 like OBS and OBS in specific or by some kind 01:21:23.100 --> 01:21:23.600 of forked brand name is the primary tool. 01:21:28.660 --> 01:21:28.820 [Speaker 4]: If I'm not mistaken I believe Stefan has 01:21:29.860 --> 01:21:30.360 joined us right now in the room. 01:21:33.240 --> 01:21:33.420 I'm putting you on the spot, 01:21:34.480 --> 01:21:34.760 if you want to stay muted you can. 01:21:35.640 --> 01:21:36.140 Oh, you have unmuted yourself. 01:21:38.400 --> 01:21:38.900 [Speaker 7]: I managed to click the unmute button. 01:21:41.180 --> 01:21:41.680 Yes, I'm here. How are you guys doing? 01:21:43.840 --> 01:21:44.200 [Speaker 4]: Doing good, surviving here. 01:21:44.200 --> 01:21:44.700 [Speaker 1]: Congratulations. 01:21:45.480 --> 01:21:45.980 [Speaker 4]: Late in your time. 01:21:50.040 --> 01:21:50.220 [Speaker 7]: Really amazing work organizing the 01:21:51.960 --> 01:21:52.460 conference. I really have to congratulate 01:21:56.120 --> 01:21:56.480 everyone. So I just hopped on here to sort of 01:21:58.140 --> 01:21:58.640 say that I'm extremely impressed. 01:22:04.240 --> 01:22:04.540 And I think this is an example to follow for 01:22:07.040 --> 01:22:07.440 other conferences and for Emacs in general. 01:22:09.400 --> 01:22:09.900 I think we need more of this community-type 01:22:12.940 --> 01:22:13.380 organizing and just getting people interested 01:22:15.960 --> 01:22:16.240 and involved on all kinds of levels can only 01:22:20.200 --> 01:22:20.340 help Emacs. Because we are in this for the 01:22:22.540 --> 01:22:23.040 long haul. That's it. 01:22:25.280 --> 01:22:25.780 [Speaker 3]: Oh, what a great point. 01:22:28.500 --> 01:22:28.740 If I can comment, that's 1 of the things that 01:22:30.720 --> 01:22:31.020 drew me to trying to contribute to free 01:22:32.580 --> 01:22:32.960 software when I was a kid, 01:22:35.580 --> 01:22:36.080 like we're talking now 30 plus years ago, 01:22:38.360 --> 01:22:38.860 the idea like, and I recognized it from 01:22:42.180 --> 01:22:42.620 Stallman's initial manifestos on the topic, 01:22:45.060 --> 01:22:45.360 right? He was clearly in this for the long 01:22:47.040 --> 01:22:47.540 haul. Like I am building the library of 01:22:50.500 --> 01:22:50.740 Alexandria here and like linking the work 01:22:52.420 --> 01:22:52.580 that we're trying to do to community that I 01:22:54.640 --> 01:22:54.900 don't know how you could touch my heart you 01:22:57.620 --> 01:22:57.840 know more surely because that's that's 01:22:59.440 --> 01:22:59.940 exactly what we want to do not necessarily 01:23:03.800 --> 01:23:04.300 any given talk or comment but the idea that 01:23:07.960 --> 01:23:08.460 we have to get together and share our ideas 01:23:10.900 --> 01:23:11.400 and the place that we do that has to be just 01:23:14.380 --> 01:23:14.880 has to be a buffet and not a crucible. 01:23:17.620 --> 01:23:17.800 [Speaker 7]: And look, we're standing on the shoulders of 01:23:19.400 --> 01:23:19.840 giants, really, when we're looking at Emacs 01:23:21.100 --> 01:23:21.600 and sort of what we have achieved. 01:23:24.680 --> 01:23:24.840 And the galaxy of talent that exists in the 01:23:27.040 --> 01:23:27.540 Emacs community is also like truly 01:23:30.800 --> 01:23:31.300 impressive, I think. So There's a lot of work 01:23:34.280 --> 01:23:34.780 to be done, but we've also achieved some 01:23:37.120 --> 01:23:37.480 pretty impressive things so far. 01:23:38.620 --> 01:23:39.120 So let's just keep at it. 01:23:43.200 --> 01:23:43.700 I'm sure we'll have a fantastic future for 01:23:44.180 --> 01:23:44.680 Emacs. 01:23:52.540 --> 01:23:53.040 [Speaker 5]: You know, I'm kind of interested in what 01:23:56.540 --> 01:23:57.040 Stefan's here. You know, 01:24:00.400 --> 01:24:00.900 just the common tropes that go around. 01:24:05.320 --> 01:24:05.740 I just hear it so much on the net, 01:24:07.540 --> 01:24:08.040 you know, is Emacs still alive? 01:24:09.960 --> 01:24:10.460 Do people still use it? 01:24:11.120 --> 01:24:11.480 You know, and of course, 01:24:13.620 --> 01:24:14.100 it's like you have an older piece of software 01:24:15.200 --> 01:24:15.700 that started so long ago, 01:24:17.540 --> 01:24:17.720 people don't realize that it's still up, 01:24:20.320 --> 01:24:20.820 but it's also because of the trends, 01:24:22.900 --> 01:24:23.400 right? You know, we've got the electron-based 01:24:28.580 --> 01:24:28.740 development and Visual Studio is slick out of 01:24:32.720 --> 01:24:33.220 the box. So what's in the core Emacs 01:24:36.260 --> 01:24:36.540 developers realm, obviously you guys are 01:24:38.160 --> 01:24:38.660 taking this longer term perspective, 01:24:44.060 --> 01:24:44.380 which makes sense, but what do you think 01:24:48.480 --> 01:24:48.980 about this issue, the shorter term and how to 01:24:52.200 --> 01:24:52.540 alleviate those concerns that some people 01:24:52.540 --> 01:24:53.040 represent? 01:24:54.820 --> 01:24:55.040 [Speaker 7]: Of course, yes. I mean, 01:24:55.840 --> 01:24:56.160 this is something that, 01:24:59.340 --> 01:24:59.600 I mean, clearly people are discussing and as 01:25:01.480 --> 01:25:01.800 you say, It's almost like a trope at this 01:25:04.200 --> 01:25:04.700 point. And it's been discussed on EmacsDevil, 01:25:07.800 --> 01:25:07.960 what can we do to promote Emacs more and to 01:25:10.240 --> 01:25:10.740 what extent should we care about that? 01:25:15.100 --> 01:25:15.600 And I mean, my reply to that is usually just, 01:25:19.120 --> 01:25:19.620 the rumors of my death are very accurate. 01:25:24.720 --> 01:25:25.220 And I think this is true also for Emacs. 01:25:29.240 --> 01:25:29.700 So we are very much here. 01:25:31.960 --> 01:25:32.460 I think what has happened also is reflective 01:25:34.960 --> 01:25:35.220 of basically that there are just more 01:25:36.580 --> 01:25:37.080 programmers on the planet, 01:25:38.040 --> 01:25:38.240 [Speaker 3]: And we 01:25:39.920 --> 01:25:40.420 [Speaker 7]: right? haven't been able to sort of catch 01:25:41.960 --> 01:25:42.460 that segment as it's been growing, 01:25:44.680 --> 01:25:45.060 but also we have more Emacs users I think 01:25:47.500 --> 01:25:47.860 today than probably ever before. 01:25:48.420 --> 01:25:48.920 We have more packages, 01:25:50.540 --> 01:25:51.040 we have more stuff going on. 01:25:55.580 --> 01:25:55.980 So I think it's a challenge as well, 01:25:58.200 --> 01:25:58.440 like to what extent do we wanna be like a 01:26:00.260 --> 01:26:00.420 niche and to what extent do we wanna be the 01:26:03.280 --> 01:26:03.780 text editor for programmers. 01:26:06.420 --> 01:26:06.720 And I think there's a tension there because 01:26:09.780 --> 01:26:09.960 we want to stay true to what Emacs is and to 01:26:12.440 --> 01:26:12.940 its sort of core values of what makes Emacs 01:26:16.720 --> 01:26:16.880 great, but can we still make some changes to 01:26:18.340 --> 01:26:18.760 sort of stay relevant. 01:26:21.060 --> 01:26:21.340 And I think that's a huge win. 01:26:24.800 --> 01:26:24.960 And clearly these discussions are going on on 01:26:26.980 --> 01:26:27.280 the Emacs level and in the minds of core 01:26:29.340 --> 01:26:29.640 developers, I think, every day. 01:26:32.040 --> 01:26:32.540 Even though, I mean, most of our work is just 01:26:35.320 --> 01:26:35.820 trying to keep adding new features, 01:26:38.220 --> 01:26:38.720 make sure that we have that sort of core 01:26:40.060 --> 01:26:40.400 infrastructure in place, 01:26:42.280 --> 01:26:42.500 which is part of the reason why I gave the 01:26:44.260 --> 01:26:44.680 talk I did yesterday, to invite more people 01:26:46.920 --> 01:26:46.960 to come on board. Because I see a lot of 01:26:48.200 --> 01:26:48.700 people have opinions about Emacs, 01:26:50.700 --> 01:26:51.200 which is amazing, and we need more of that. 01:26:54.160 --> 01:26:54.660 But I think, let's say, 01:26:56.280 --> 01:26:56.780 patches speak louder than words. 01:27:01.300 --> 01:27:01.780 Software. And it's definitely true in Emacs 01:27:01.780 --> 01:27:02.280 development. 01:27:04.680 --> 01:27:04.960 [Speaker 3]: I want to just piggyback on, 01:27:06.820 --> 01:27:06.940 like attack the premise of the question a 01:27:09.800 --> 01:27:09.960 little bit, right? Remember that we are sort 01:27:11.880 --> 01:27:12.380 of in a trench warfare with commercial 01:27:15.160 --> 01:27:15.660 interests that are dependent on dominating 01:27:20.660 --> 01:27:21.160 software ecosystems in order to exploit users 01:27:24.600 --> 01:27:24.760 for money. Like that is a necessary thing to 01:27:26.020 --> 01:27:26.420 a lot of people's business model. 01:27:30.060 --> 01:27:30.560 And so we live in a world where software is 01:27:32.760 --> 01:27:33.260 more than tools. It is clothing. 01:27:38.480 --> 01:27:38.840 And so when I put on my Mac and I put on my 01:27:42.860 --> 01:27:43.180 UI skin, I'm not just choosing whether I like 01:27:46.640 --> 01:27:46.960 sliders or radio buttons or check boxes or 01:27:49.840 --> 01:27:50.340 the other UI mechanics that give that 01:27:53.920 --> 01:27:54.160 heuristic and make it make me think it's easy 01:27:55.440 --> 01:27:55.940 to use, easy to learn to use, 01:27:59.160 --> 01:27:59.340 right? I'm also choosing a whole line of 01:28:02.080 --> 01:28:02.580 implementation detail that I'm being actively 01:28:06.040 --> 01:28:06.540 trained not to try to understand by, 01:28:08.720 --> 01:28:09.020 you know, kind of the dark side of the force 01:28:11.780 --> 01:28:12.100 over here. So when I think about, 01:28:14.380 --> 01:28:14.880 you know, make Emacs more like Toaster, 01:28:18.860 --> 01:28:19.060 [Speaker 1]: you know, 01:28:21.340 --> 01:28:21.560 [Speaker 3]: I, 1 of my responses is every time that 01:28:22.740 --> 01:28:22.960 question asks, you know, 01:28:24.160 --> 01:28:24.480 an angel grows, gets asked, 01:28:25.440 --> 01:28:25.720 an angel grows its wings. 01:28:27.040 --> 01:28:27.540 A developer submits a patch, 01:28:30.040 --> 01:28:30.240 a bug gets opened that we can, 01:28:31.840 --> 01:28:32.320 you know, with enough information to actually 01:28:33.240 --> 01:28:33.740 do something about it, 01:28:34.920 --> 01:28:35.280 the ecosystem gets better, 01:28:38.100 --> 01:28:38.600 right? Whether a new user comes or not, 01:28:40.680 --> 01:28:41.040 like somebody's actually asking a question 01:28:42.780 --> 01:28:42.900 that's going to lead them someday to pick a 01:28:43.260 --> 01:28:43.760 better tool. 01:28:47.620 --> 01:28:48.120 [Speaker 7]: Yeah, it's true. I mean, 01:28:50.000 --> 01:28:50.280 we have powerful enemies and they are not 01:28:52.540 --> 01:28:52.720 working for us. And when they are working on 01:28:54.960 --> 01:28:55.160 improving VS code, you can't be under any 01:28:56.640 --> 01:28:56.720 illusion that they are doing that in the 01:28:57.340 --> 01:28:57.660 interest of the users. 01:28:59.760 --> 01:29:00.060 They're doing that in their interest of the 01:29:02.620 --> 01:29:02.780 corporate owners. So this is the reality that 01:29:04.640 --> 01:29:04.900 we have to face and Emacs is just not like 01:29:07.920 --> 01:29:08.040 that. And this is of course part of the 01:29:09.960 --> 01:29:10.460 reason why it's so important that we continue 01:29:14.040 --> 01:29:14.260 this work for the future of being able to do 01:29:17.640 --> 01:29:17.800 computing in a free way and in a way that is 01:29:20.220 --> 01:29:20.380 actually, you know, supports the types of 01:29:21.740 --> 01:29:22.240 workflows that we know and love. 01:29:26.720 --> 01:29:26.920 [Speaker 4]: Something that I'd like to add to this is 01:29:29.680 --> 01:29:30.060 that, you know, you've mentioned we need more 01:29:30.640 --> 01:29:31.140 programmers in the world. 01:29:33.240 --> 01:29:33.340 And in light of what we're doing with 01:29:35.140 --> 01:29:35.220 EmacsConf, perhaps we need more people to be 01:29:36.580 --> 01:29:36.960 at EmacsConf talking, not necessarily 01:29:38.100 --> 01:29:38.600 programmers, but just people apprehending 01:29:40.520 --> 01:29:40.940 Emacs and talking about it. 01:29:42.720 --> 01:29:43.180 It feels like we've got different missions 01:29:44.440 --> 01:29:44.700 that we're trying to accomplish with this. 01:29:45.820 --> 01:29:46.320 We are... Okay, you... 01:29:47.780 --> 01:29:48.280 Go ahead, Colin. 01:29:49.600 --> 01:29:49.940 [Speaker 3]: I can't leave that alone. 01:29:52.120 --> 01:29:52.420 I almost came in there on the previous point. 01:29:55.020 --> 01:29:55.240 Yeah, I actually Completely agree with that 01:29:58.900 --> 01:29:59.140 Leo. That's something that and I mean to be 01:30:02.780 --> 01:30:03.240 fair. I owe a good I owe dev al a good email 01:30:05.800 --> 01:30:06.160 on this topic, but we desperately need more 01:30:07.840 --> 01:30:08.340 project managers, more solutions architect, 01:30:10.380 --> 01:30:10.880 more business process analysts, 01:30:12.660 --> 01:30:13.160 more systems analysts, 01:30:15.100 --> 01:30:15.560 more, you know, and the best tech, 01:30:17.900 --> 01:30:18.400 you know, some of the best threads start with 01:30:23.100 --> 01:30:23.420 quite a bit of an analytical work done on the 01:30:24.940 --> 01:30:25.440 part of an engineer who's come along. 01:30:29.320 --> 01:30:29.680 But actually, Larry Wall has this quote, 01:30:31.640 --> 01:30:32.140 right? Where he says, consider 3 solutions 01:30:34.120 --> 01:30:34.300 and build 1. And I think we struggle with 01:30:36.760 --> 01:30:37.260 that as a community because getting a patch 01:30:39.920 --> 01:30:40.120 is a lot of work and a lot to ask for 01:30:42.900 --> 01:30:43.080 somebody. So asking 3 people to submit a 01:30:45.200 --> 01:30:45.260 patch means you're saying no to a lot of 01:30:47.280 --> 01:30:47.560 blood, sweat and tears on the part of like 2 01:30:48.960 --> 01:30:49.460 people, maybe 2 teams of people. 01:30:55.520 --> 01:30:56.020 [Speaker 5]: And 1 thing I think is a big expansion is 01:31:02.020 --> 01:31:02.520 usability and user experience design. 01:31:05.560 --> 01:31:05.900 I think, and not in the sense like, 01:31:08.260 --> 01:31:08.760 you know, CUA mode or, 01:31:12.440 --> 01:31:12.560 you know, people don't realize that Emacs key 01:31:13.680 --> 01:31:14.180 bindings are actually ergonomic, 01:31:16.720 --> 01:31:17.220 but more, you know, like for myself, 01:31:20.240 --> 01:31:20.740 I did a lot of work in sort of bringing out 01:31:24.480 --> 01:31:24.880 Emacs features and did a lot of things 01:31:26.240 --> 01:31:26.740 creating this info doc, 01:31:28.940 --> 01:31:29.100 you know, which is sort of like Space Max or 01:31:30.300 --> 01:31:30.800 something in the old days. 01:31:33.900 --> 01:31:34.200 But the process, yeah, 01:31:38.600 --> 01:31:39.100 kept a lot of that from ever making it into 01:31:40.460 --> 01:31:40.680 CoreDMX and, you know, 01:31:44.180 --> 01:31:44.680 just a lack of time on my part to follow up. 01:31:46.560 --> 01:31:47.060 But if you had somebody, 01:31:51.220 --> 01:31:51.500 you know, who sort of coalesced all the 01:31:52.820 --> 01:31:53.260 technical work on like, 01:31:56.280 --> 01:31:56.480 here's how we can put it together and make it 01:32:01.320 --> 01:32:01.820 more accessible, I've seen that go a long way 01:32:02.800 --> 01:32:03.300 in certain environments. 01:32:06.100 --> 01:32:06.340 And I imagine, you know, 01:32:08.160 --> 01:32:08.660 it's just not the experience of, 01:32:11.180 --> 01:32:11.680 you know, most people on the core team. 01:32:14.620 --> 01:32:15.060 [Speaker 7]: Yeah, for sure. I mean, 01:32:16.160 --> 01:32:16.560 We don't have, I mean, 01:32:18.760 --> 01:32:18.900 we're mostly a bunch, we're a bunch of 01:32:20.080 --> 01:32:20.280 programmers. That's what we are, 01:32:22.640 --> 01:32:22.800 right? We don't have graphical signers or any 01:32:24.320 --> 01:32:24.620 of the stuff that you're talking about. 01:32:28.380 --> 01:32:28.580 So we don't have really any UX experts on 01:32:30.380 --> 01:32:30.800 board. So perhaps that would be welcome. 01:32:35.460 --> 01:32:35.960 But then again, how do you even fit the EMAX 01:32:38.880 --> 01:32:39.280 paradigm into what is typically taught and 01:32:40.840 --> 01:32:41.120 discussed in UX? I mean, 01:32:43.220 --> 01:32:43.380 maybe there is a way. I'm sure there are 01:32:45.640 --> 01:32:45.920 general principles and a lot that we could 01:32:47.880 --> 01:32:48.380 learn, But then there is also like this, 01:32:52.240 --> 01:32:52.440 we have to stay true to what Emacs is to some 01:32:53.940 --> 01:32:54.400 extent and what does that look like 01:32:56.320 --> 01:32:56.580 concretely. There are discussions to be had 01:32:58.620 --> 01:32:59.120 for sure, but we would definitely benefit 01:33:02.900 --> 01:33:03.400 from that type of specific input. 01:33:04.360 --> 01:33:04.480 [Speaker 3]: Well, I 01:33:06.940 --> 01:33:07.240 [Speaker 5]: mean, like a simple example today is I looked 01:33:09.720 --> 01:33:09.900 at the conference guidelines I always stay in 01:33:13.160 --> 01:33:13.420 dark mode and it said well use light mode for 01:33:16.220 --> 01:33:16.420 your presentation so okay I'll switch to 01:33:19.280 --> 01:33:19.480 light mode let me load a theme so I go into 01:33:21.280 --> 01:33:21.780 all the default themes and, 01:33:23.900 --> 01:33:24.400 you know, start going through the light ones 01:33:28.080 --> 01:33:28.580 and then I check all the faces and, 01:33:31.120 --> 01:33:31.620 you know, there are at least 3 to 5 faces 01:33:35.160 --> 01:33:35.600 that have nearly invisible text as a result 01:33:38.480 --> 01:33:38.980 of the background highlighting on them. 01:33:40.080 --> 01:33:40.460 And I'm like, you know, 01:33:43.380 --> 01:33:43.680 so there's low hanging fruit like that where 01:33:46.840 --> 01:33:47.020 people would deal with the structure of the 01:33:49.400 --> 01:33:49.900 menus, the actual faces, 01:33:53.120 --> 01:33:53.620 the themes, that don't have to do anything 01:33:57.840 --> 01:33:58.060 affecting core Emacs except make the 01:33:59.960 --> 01:34:00.460 presentation much better. 01:34:03.380 --> 01:34:03.640 [Speaker 7]: Yeah, definitely. If people want to send such 01:34:06.160 --> 01:34:06.660 polishing patches for various aspects, 01:34:09.280 --> 01:34:09.520 I spent some time making a new help screen. 01:34:10.520 --> 01:34:10.960 I don't know if you noticed, 01:34:12.740 --> 01:34:13.040 I don't know how many people press Control H, 01:34:14.160 --> 01:34:14.660 Control H on their keyboards, 01:34:17.540 --> 01:34:17.720 But it's like with new sections and it's 01:34:18.480 --> 01:34:18.980 sorted a little bit better. 01:34:20.500 --> 01:34:20.640 It didn't take much. I mean, 01:34:21.660 --> 01:34:22.060 it took a time obviously, 01:34:23.940 --> 01:34:24.440 but it's not like it required some fantastic 01:34:28.140 --> 01:34:28.260 technical knowledge or deep expertise in 01:34:29.200 --> 01:34:29.700 Emacs Lisp to do that. 01:34:31.480 --> 01:34:31.980 It's Basically anyone can do stuff like that. 01:34:34.200 --> 01:34:34.340 So definitely if you're interested in doing 01:34:37.440 --> 01:34:37.680 that type of work, start discussing with us. 01:34:41.040 --> 01:34:41.440 Let's talk about what we can do and get doing 01:34:41.820 --> 01:34:42.320 it, really. 01:34:44.960 --> 01:34:45.140 [Speaker 4]: Yeah, this is exactly in line with your 01:34:45.800 --> 01:34:46.240 presentation from yesterday, 01:34:47.720 --> 01:34:47.920 Stefan, as well, because you were just 01:34:50.160 --> 01:34:50.320 inviting people who are not contributing to 01:34:51.380 --> 01:34:51.740 the core of Emacs to do so. 01:34:53.200 --> 01:34:53.360 You were talking to package developer on 01:34:55.120 --> 01:34:55.440 MailPub, but you were also talking just about 01:34:58.200 --> 01:34:58.380 the average Joe or Jane just doing their own 01:34:59.580 --> 01:35:00.080 things or encountering a problem. 01:35:01.120 --> 01:35:01.280 Now, yes, we talked about, 01:35:02.800 --> 01:35:02.960 oh, you need to build master and all this, 01:35:03.920 --> 01:35:04.420 but at the end of the day, 01:35:06.680 --> 01:35:06.960 low-hanging fruits like the ones Bob just 01:35:09.840 --> 01:35:10.120 described. If everyone does this at the end, 01:35:11.280 --> 01:35:11.780 you end up with something that is extremely 01:35:13.520 --> 01:35:13.620 polished. Perhaps you do not need to have a 01:35:14.900 --> 01:35:15.140 UX specialist to tell you that, 01:35:18.220 --> 01:35:18.340 oh, those 2 colors are actually very close to 01:35:21.220 --> 01:35:21.600 1 another. I think it's kind of a discussion 01:35:23.580 --> 01:35:24.020 about same defaults as well that you had 01:35:25.080 --> 01:35:25.580 yesterday. Ultimately, 01:35:27.340 --> 01:35:27.600 we do not need... Yes, 01:35:28.780 --> 01:35:29.040 we need more programmers in the world. 01:35:30.480 --> 01:35:30.980 We want more people to use Emacs. 01:35:33.740 --> 01:35:34.240 But you don't know. Like, 01:35:36.220 --> 01:35:36.500 is it going to be someone in computer science 01:35:38.420 --> 01:35:38.620 that's going to be the next giant on whose 01:35:39.580 --> 01:35:39.880 shoulders we're going to stand? 01:35:41.003 --> 01:35:41.010 [Speaker 3]: computer science? Is it going to be someone 01:35:41.066 --> 01:35:41.074 in computer science that's going to be the 01:35:41.082 --> 01:35:41.090 next giant 01:35:41.137 --> 01:35:41.145 [Speaker 1]: on whose shoulders we're going to stand? 01:35:41.184 --> 01:35:41.192 Is it someone who did not 01:35:41.192 --> 01:35:41.200 [Speaker 4]: Is it someone who did not study study 01:35:42.660 --> 01:35:42.980 computer science? Is it going to be someone 01:35:44.060 --> 01:35:44.560 who did something completely different? 01:35:46.960 --> 01:35:47.120 We do not know the prototypical user of 01:35:49.280 --> 01:35:49.640 Emacs. We have some idea about the fact that 01:35:51.760 --> 01:35:51.940 they might be using you know, 01:35:52.580 --> 01:35:53.080 Emacs for their programming, 01:35:55.560 --> 01:35:55.680 but more and more, and as is evidenced by the 01:35:56.420 --> 01:35:56.920 talks we received with EmacsConf, 01:36:01.020 --> 01:36:01.360 it's just people doing writing or taking 01:36:01.920 --> 01:36:02.420 notes for their classes. 01:36:06.340 --> 01:36:06.540 So it's really interesting to see how and to 01:36:09.400 --> 01:36:09.480 explore for us how we can give back to the 01:36:11.180 --> 01:36:11.600 core of Emacs in a way that is mutually 01:36:12.360 --> 01:36:12.700 constructive because again, 01:36:14.440 --> 01:36:14.940 to go back to the philosophy or the political 01:36:17.400 --> 01:36:17.640 agenda that we have is for more people to use 01:36:19.700 --> 01:36:20.200 software that is not the liberties. 01:36:20.500 --> 01:36:21.000 Exactly. 01:36:24.140 --> 01:36:24.280 [Speaker 3]: So right. Yeah. I mean, 01:36:25.840 --> 01:36:26.100 that's a good spot for me to come right back 01:36:27.380 --> 01:36:27.720 in. And that's exactly where I do. 01:36:30.200 --> 01:36:30.420 Right. Because that's that's what it's all 01:36:33.040 --> 01:36:33.540 about. In the In terms of a tool user, 01:36:36.600 --> 01:36:37.100 you know, the evolution of using tools as, 01:36:38.620 --> 01:36:39.120 you know, these creatures have fought, 01:36:42.820 --> 01:36:43.220 Emacs is fire. Emacs is the ability to learn 01:36:45.920 --> 01:36:46.320 languages, the ability to manipulate other 01:36:48.140 --> 01:36:48.640 tools. I mean, it's almost like, 01:36:50.680 --> 01:36:51.140 you know, God Emperor of Dune level, 01:36:53.720 --> 01:36:54.140 you know, some Frank Herbert type of powers 01:36:56.480 --> 01:36:56.680 that you have over your computer and you are 01:36:58.460 --> 01:36:58.740 not required to understand how all those 01:37:02.440 --> 01:37:02.940 things work. So from a support standpoint 01:37:04.540 --> 01:37:04.840 that puts us in a challenging position, 01:37:06.300 --> 01:37:06.720 right? I spend a lot of time on Pound Emacs 01:37:07.760 --> 01:37:08.040 and the questions that go by there, 01:37:09.840 --> 01:37:09.960 I feel bad for people that feel like they 01:37:12.600 --> 01:37:12.720 have to answer every question that goes by in 01:37:14.060 --> 01:37:14.500 the channel because no 1 could. 01:37:16.640 --> 01:37:17.080 No 1 can give an intelligent answer to the, 01:37:18.040 --> 01:37:18.540 you know, everything from, 01:37:21.260 --> 01:37:21.440 Hey, how do I change my default font on this 01:37:23.520 --> 01:37:24.020 operating system? You've never heard of to, 01:37:26.140 --> 01:37:26.480 you know, how do you know this list code? 01:37:28.040 --> 01:37:28.340 That's 40 lines long doesn't work. 01:37:30.040 --> 01:37:30.260 And I think it was a recent change that was 01:37:31.720 --> 01:37:32.220 made to the P case macro. 01:37:39.480 --> 01:37:39.980 Do you agree? Right? And as deep as that, 01:37:42.740 --> 01:37:43.240 well is, if you turn it 90 degrees, 01:37:45.040 --> 01:37:45.200 the Emacs is that kind of tool to the 01:37:46.080 --> 01:37:46.400 operating system level. 01:37:48.800 --> 01:37:49.280 It's letting me walk across to other systems, 01:37:51.360 --> 01:37:51.780 multi-hop, become the super user, 01:37:55.120 --> 01:37:55.620 right? And, you know, the just the power, 01:37:57.600 --> 01:37:58.020 the amplification of power there, 01:38:02.320 --> 01:38:02.820 it's like the lever combined with the magnet, 01:38:08.140 --> 01:38:08.640 etc, etc. I mean, just, 01:38:14.760 --> 01:38:14.960 yeah, I don't know. So I guess where we kind 01:38:16.260 --> 01:38:16.640 of jump off, where that gets stuck, 01:38:18.580 --> 01:38:18.740 right, is trying to change something like the 01:38:19.760 --> 01:38:20.260 defaults in the user experience. 01:38:22.740 --> 01:38:23.240 So I imagine, you know, 01:38:26.580 --> 01:38:26.920 we don't get 1 great idea about user 01:38:28.020 --> 01:38:28.520 experience, we'll get 3, 01:38:30.240 --> 01:38:30.480 right? And then Once again, 01:38:32.980 --> 01:38:33.400 we have to send our brave developers off to 01:38:36.220 --> 01:38:36.440 build 1 to 3 patches, some of which won't see 01:38:41.040 --> 01:38:41.140 the light of day. I think that's where the 01:38:41.920 --> 01:38:42.420 breakthrough is needed. 01:38:46.680 --> 01:38:47.180 Another evolution in the packaging thought, 01:38:48.620 --> 01:38:49.120 or maybe it's not packaging. 01:38:50.920 --> 01:38:51.380 Maybe it's the compilation step. 01:38:52.800 --> 01:38:53.220 Maybe it's the distribution step. 01:38:56.120 --> 01:38:56.280 Maybe we want the Debians of the world to 01:38:59.220 --> 01:38:59.540 deliver Emacs as 2 different pieces now. 01:39:03.540 --> 01:39:03.700 And there's a UX piece that we want you to 01:39:05.280 --> 01:39:05.780 package each 1 that you package, 01:39:09.060 --> 01:39:09.240 each 1 per window manager that you support or 01:39:11.380 --> 01:39:11.660 at the intersection of each window manager 01:39:12.940 --> 01:39:13.300 and display manager you port. 01:39:15.200 --> 01:39:15.300 And the other one's just the server and you 01:39:17.040 --> 01:39:17.280 don't even have to package that if I'm only 01:39:19.680 --> 01:39:20.020 offering the CLI or there's a you know like 01:39:21.960 --> 01:39:22.280 I'm making all this up and I can't code a 01:39:23.760 --> 01:39:24.260 single thing like what I just said, 01:39:26.920 --> 01:39:27.420 but I think that there's a technical 01:39:31.640 --> 01:39:32.140 opportunity. Pretty high level for technical 01:39:35.020 --> 01:39:35.520 there of just thinking about a way to accept 01:39:40.560 --> 01:39:40.680 contributions of experience with maybe a 01:39:43.780 --> 01:39:44.280 little less rigor and a little less ground 01:39:44.900 --> 01:39:45.400 into the marble. 01:39:50.400 --> 01:39:50.800 [Speaker 5]: Yeah it makes me think of somebody at work 01:39:54.220 --> 01:39:54.340 just brought up pair programming and he's in 01:39:58.080 --> 01:39:58.580 love with it. He wants to pair up and do it, 01:40:01.120 --> 01:40:01.620 which is not true of all programmers. 01:40:05.800 --> 01:40:06.300 But I said, okay, so you spearhead that. 01:40:10.680 --> 01:40:10.900 If we, I think it is a very high barrier to 01:40:13.580 --> 01:40:13.780 get your patches in because of course they 01:40:15.420 --> 01:40:15.860 need to meet the quality standard of Emacs. 01:40:20.800 --> 01:40:21.300 So if people who are doing day-to-day 01:40:24.200 --> 01:40:24.700 understand that process and can do it well, 01:40:28.200 --> 01:40:28.540 could work with some of the people who can't 01:40:30.040 --> 01:40:30.540 quite contribute at that level, 01:40:35.020 --> 01:40:35.240 but have ideas that are on the level that 01:40:39.780 --> 01:40:40.280 should go in, pairing them up could really 01:40:41.420 --> 01:40:41.920 move a lot of that forward. 01:40:46.000 --> 01:40:46.500 Like Lars, I don't know what his, 01:40:50.000 --> 01:40:50.500 I get the feeling maybe he's retired. 01:40:54.960 --> 01:40:55.380 So, you know, maybe he has some time, 01:40:58.300 --> 01:40:58.640 you know, and he's really good at going back 01:41:00.320 --> 01:41:00.480 in and saying, you know, 01:41:02.400 --> 01:41:02.480 these areas haven't gotten attention in a 01:41:05.660 --> 01:41:05.900 while, so I'm going to go kill some bugs and 01:41:08.160 --> 01:41:08.660 look at them and fix them up. 01:41:13.640 --> 01:41:13.840 So I would think he would be good to do that 01:41:15.340 --> 01:41:15.480 with someone. But you know, 01:41:22.400 --> 01:41:22.740 Again, I've got years of code that would just 01:41:25.320 --> 01:41:25.760 require somebody to work through it to update 01:41:28.340 --> 01:41:28.660 to the latest code base and diff against it. 01:41:30.080 --> 01:41:30.480 But it does things like, 01:41:32.960 --> 01:41:33.420 I mean, like if anybody used RMAIL anymore, 01:41:36.200 --> 01:41:36.700 I made the summary mode of RMAIL exactly 01:41:40.080 --> 01:41:40.580 compatible key-wise with the main buffer, 01:41:43.140 --> 01:41:43.260 which it never was, and fixed a number of 01:41:46.120 --> 01:41:46.620 other features. Dured made operations 01:41:49.340 --> 01:41:49.480 reversible, where you mark something and you 01:41:51.420 --> 01:41:51.920 unmark it, and you can go up and down. 01:41:53.160 --> 01:41:53.480 And there are all these little 01:41:56.260 --> 01:41:56.760 incompatibilities that kind of add up across 01:42:00.120 --> 01:42:00.620 time, and they never seem to get addressed. 01:42:06.180 --> 01:42:06.480 We could just fix them and people would start 01:42:09.400 --> 01:42:09.640 to say, oh, this is smoother and they are 01:42:12.580 --> 01:42:12.820 getting more of that experience because it 01:42:15.060 --> 01:42:15.560 feels like the systems maybe 80, 01:42:20.740 --> 01:42:21.240 85% of the way there in a lot of thoughtful 01:42:26.040 --> 01:42:26.200 design. But that last 15% could be the 01:42:29.640 --> 01:42:30.100 difference between an iPhone and an Android 01:42:32.260 --> 01:42:32.760 phone of usability-wise. 01:42:38.720 --> 01:42:38.940 So that's a thought. That's a 01:42:41.100 --> 01:42:41.240 [Speaker 3]: brilliant idea, and it probably can be 01:42:42.840 --> 01:42:43.340 applied far wider than emacs. 01:42:46.060 --> 01:42:46.320 That's something that that FSF should 01:42:48.480 --> 01:42:48.980 consider suggesting across, 01:42:49.920 --> 01:42:50.420 you know, GNU packages, 01:42:54.280 --> 01:42:54.600 for example, like a matchmaking project seems 01:42:56.520 --> 01:42:56.880 like something that FSF community teams 01:43:04.020 --> 01:43:04.110 should think about. Yeah, 01:43:04.360 --> 01:43:04.520 I was going 01:43:04.920 --> 01:43:05.420 [Speaker 1]: That's so... to say also, 01:43:08.080 --> 01:43:08.140 I noticed that the name Debian came up a 01:43:09.840 --> 01:43:10.260 while ago and now we were talking about 01:43:14.540 --> 01:43:15.040 programming and such and Mentoring maybe and 01:43:17.960 --> 01:43:18.320 Debian has this service or part of their site 01:43:19.600 --> 01:43:20.100 or community called Mentors. 01:43:22.120 --> 01:43:22.620 They have a website, mentors.debian.net, 01:43:26.920 --> 01:43:27.100 where the idea is that people who want to get 01:43:28.100 --> 01:43:28.480 into contributing to Debian, 01:43:29.580 --> 01:43:30.080 for example, to package things, 01:43:33.200 --> 01:43:33.480 but obviously don't have upload rights right 01:43:35.720 --> 01:43:36.000 away. This is where they can go to, 01:43:38.460 --> 01:43:38.760 and this is separate from their mailing list 01:43:42.340 --> 01:43:42.580 or bug trackers. They can basically build 01:43:44.760 --> 01:43:45.260 their changed packages and upload them here, 01:43:48.220 --> 01:43:48.480 and then Debian developers who have commit or 01:43:51.380 --> 01:43:51.620 upload rights to the Debian archive can go 01:43:55.960 --> 01:43:56.120 and review and give them feedback or ask them 01:43:57.620 --> 01:43:58.120 to change something or if it's good, 01:44:01.620 --> 01:44:01.920 then just easily upload the package right 01:44:04.200 --> 01:44:04.440 from there. And I wonder if it might make 01:44:07.760 --> 01:44:08.000 sense to have something kind of like that in 01:44:10.360 --> 01:44:10.840 like the context of Emacs or the GNU project 01:44:13.360 --> 01:44:13.660 as a whole, where we have like some kind of 01:44:15.520 --> 01:44:16.020 a, like loosely defined mentoring thing, 01:44:18.840 --> 01:44:19.120 where we could pair up people who are more 01:44:20.500 --> 01:44:21.000 experienced, who, for example, 01:44:22.540 --> 01:44:22.740 have commit rights in the Emacs core 01:44:27.080 --> 01:44:27.240 repository to match them up with someone who 01:44:29.080 --> 01:44:29.260 is just making your very first patches or 01:44:31.640 --> 01:44:31.960 contributions to Emacs or whatever other GNU 01:44:34.000 --> 01:44:34.200 package. Just some food for thought, 01:44:38.040 --> 01:44:38.540 [Speaker 5]: Yeah, sounds good. 01:44:44.340 --> 01:44:44.600 [Speaker 1]: I guess. Yeah, and then I guess 1 feature of 01:44:47.360 --> 01:44:47.860 such a system which would be nice is that it, 01:44:49.200 --> 01:44:49.340 at least in terms of, you know, 01:44:50.380 --> 01:44:50.580 the mentors that Debbie and that, 01:44:52.200 --> 01:44:52.700 that it has a web UI, which, 01:44:56.040 --> 01:44:56.200 is nice because mailing lists might be 01:44:58.140 --> 01:44:58.380 intimidating for someone who is just getting 01:44:59.340 --> 01:44:59.840 started, like in these communities. 01:45:03.960 --> 01:45:04.200 Or, you know, just making patches like that, 01:45:05.440 --> 01:45:05.940 or just have a series of concrete 01:45:08.100 --> 01:45:08.320 instructions. Like with mentors at 01:45:11.100 --> 01:45:11.200 Devian.net, I feel like you can't go wrong in 01:45:13.820 --> 01:45:14.240 terms of finding the steps of figuring out 01:45:16.260 --> 01:45:16.500 what you need to do to put together some 01:45:19.040 --> 01:45:19.240 change. Which I think the same idea could 01:45:20.280 --> 01:45:20.740 apply to Emacs, for example, 01:45:20.860 --> 01:45:21.360 as well. 01:45:24.560 --> 01:45:24.960 [Speaker 7]: I think this is a good point about lowering 01:45:27.440 --> 01:45:27.620 barriers, and how email is a barrier to 01:45:28.860 --> 01:45:29.240 people. I mean, so on the 1 hand, 01:45:31.100 --> 01:45:31.320 you have us guys on Emacs level, 01:45:32.860 --> 01:45:33.360 we're very used to the email workflow. 01:45:35.140 --> 01:45:35.500 Like we're not just using it for fun. 01:45:37.040 --> 01:45:37.160 You know what I mean? Like this is a 01:45:38.320 --> 01:45:38.820 workhorse. It really is. 01:45:41.400 --> 01:45:41.840 And it's tried, it's battled, 01:45:42.900 --> 01:45:43.300 tested. It has some quirks, 01:45:45.140 --> 01:45:45.340 but we know them extremely well on the other 01:45:48.060 --> 01:45:48.380 hand. So, but still we want more people 01:45:50.700 --> 01:45:50.880 involved, right? And we realized that, 01:45:52.760 --> 01:45:52.960 you know, times are changing as well. 01:45:54.720 --> 01:45:54.900 And people are more used to doing stuff from 01:45:55.640 --> 01:45:56.140 the web browser, perhaps. 01:46:00.040 --> 01:46:00.320 So we do want to move to a forge, 01:46:01.920 --> 01:46:02.420 or at least start looking into that. 01:46:03.560 --> 01:46:04.060 But there are some obstacles. 01:46:06.060 --> 01:46:06.280 So we are looking for volunteers to do that 01:46:07.360 --> 01:46:07.580 work. I'm not just saying it, 01:46:08.640 --> 01:46:09.140 like we are very serious. 01:46:11.660 --> 01:46:11.760 I'm very seriously asking people in the 01:46:12.520 --> 01:46:13.020 community to consider, 01:46:14.920 --> 01:46:15.280 hey, could you dedicate some time? 01:46:18.660 --> 01:46:18.900 I mean, it will take some dedication for sure 01:46:20.600 --> 01:46:20.820 it will take some time and it will take some 01:46:23.040 --> 01:46:23.300 describe probably even you know Be prepared 01:46:24.760 --> 01:46:25.260 to be frustrated at times right, 01:46:26.980 --> 01:46:27.180 but if you're serious about doing that type 01:46:28.040 --> 01:46:28.260 of work, okay now 01:46:32.520 --> 01:46:32.900 [Speaker 3]: I believe you Well, I'm just I'm just teasing 01:46:35.900 --> 01:46:36.140 but but but yes exactly any I mean it's it's 01:46:38.560 --> 01:46:39.060 not even a joke right Any serious undertaking 01:46:41.420 --> 01:46:41.920 having to do with any free software project, 01:46:45.300 --> 01:46:45.600 just because we are open to the entire world 01:46:47.760 --> 01:46:48.160 and we pride ourselves on trying to take 01:46:50.020 --> 01:46:50.460 seriously all input. And if it's a logical 01:46:51.940 --> 01:46:52.040 argument, then we'll go ahead and take the 01:46:53.000 --> 01:46:53.200 time to combat with you, 01:46:54.960 --> 01:46:55.180 even though the maintainer has 300 other 01:46:57.260 --> 01:46:57.760 things to do. Like, man, 01:46:58.280 --> 01:46:58.740 this 01:47:00.020 --> 01:47:00.280 [Speaker 7]: is just the way it is, 01:47:02.840 --> 01:47:03.160 right? It just, It's not like Emacs is way 01:47:06.960 --> 01:47:07.460 harder to change than any other project of 01:47:08.680 --> 01:47:09.180 its longevity and size. 01:47:10.800 --> 01:47:11.100 It's just these things take time. 01:47:13.420 --> 01:47:13.920 Try getting a change into Debian. 01:47:15.060 --> 01:47:15.460 That's an uphill battle. 01:47:16.960 --> 01:47:17.460 I don't even know where to start with that. 01:47:19.540 --> 01:47:20.040 That's huge, right? And I have tremendous 01:47:21.640 --> 01:47:21.820 respect for the people doing that type of 01:47:22.760 --> 01:47:23.260 work because it takes dedication, 01:47:26.280 --> 01:47:26.440 it takes effort. So we really need someone to 01:47:27.180 --> 01:47:27.600 step up from the community, 01:47:29.760 --> 01:47:30.060 I think, to be a champion for something like 01:47:33.160 --> 01:47:33.600 this and work together with us on Emacs Devil 01:47:37.800 --> 01:47:38.200 and off Emacs Devil, probably with me and Eli 01:47:40.320 --> 01:47:40.600 and perhaps some other people that could be 01:47:41.820 --> 01:47:42.280 in the mail thread, and we could coordinate 01:47:44.620 --> 01:47:44.960 this type of work. I would be super excited 01:47:46.560 --> 01:47:47.060 if someone wanted to get the ball rolling. 01:47:48.480 --> 01:47:48.980 I can't do everything. 01:47:51.100 --> 01:47:51.340 I wish I could. Like, I thought about it. 01:47:52.840 --> 01:47:53.000 Should I just put everything to the side and 01:47:53.860 --> 01:47:54.000 do this? But then, I mean, 01:47:54.800 --> 01:47:55.080 there are some, there are other 01:47:56.040 --> 01:47:56.400 responsibilities as well. 01:47:57.740 --> 01:47:58.040 So we need someone to step up. 01:47:58.520 --> 01:47:59.020 We need help here. 01:48:03.220 --> 01:48:03.460 [Speaker 3]: you're gonna speak. I was totally gonna pick 01:48:04.120 --> 01:48:04.620 on you. Go ahead. 01:48:05.540 --> 01:48:05.820 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, so. Oh, good, Thanks, 01:48:06.540 --> 01:48:06.860 yeah, I was just gonna say, 01:48:08.460 --> 01:48:08.960 yeah, I echo Stefan's sentiments. 01:48:11.680 --> 01:48:11.960 And that, yeah, in terms of like maybe 01:48:14.020 --> 01:48:14.080 experimenting with a different Forge or a 01:48:15.280 --> 01:48:15.600 better Forge and like, 01:48:16.124 --> 01:48:16.296 you know, supplementing Savannah. 01:48:16.640 --> 01:48:17.140 And supplementing Savannah. 01:48:20.860 --> 01:48:20.920 I actually did some initial work a couple of 01:48:23.240 --> 01:48:23.740 months ago to get a SourceFed instance 01:48:24.860 --> 01:48:25.360 installed for the new project. 01:48:28.440 --> 01:48:28.660 And I've done some work on and off, 01:48:29.340 --> 01:48:29.760 but then life happens, 01:48:32.140 --> 01:48:32.640 especially from September onwards. 01:48:35.240 --> 01:48:35.500 But even from earlier in the year, 01:48:36.460 --> 01:48:36.960 the project has been semi-dormant, 01:48:38.740 --> 01:48:39.240 but I have been meaning to get to that. 01:48:42.740 --> 01:48:42.900 So I'm like 1 such person who's interested in 01:48:44.760 --> 01:48:44.960 that type of work and driving it forward and 01:48:47.640 --> 01:48:47.880 I would love you know if anyone's and anyone 01:48:50.820 --> 01:48:50.980 else has the kind of time and energy and the 01:48:52.760 --> 01:48:53.260 interest to help with something like that. 01:48:55.280 --> 01:48:55.780 Yes, please reach out to all of us, 01:48:56.880 --> 01:48:57.380 to Emacs core developers, 01:48:58.100 --> 01:48:58.600 of course, and to myself. 01:49:01.840 --> 01:49:02.340 This is something that could be very useful, 01:49:04.960 --> 01:49:05.460 not just for GNU Emacs and Emacs developers, 01:49:09.760 --> 01:49:10.240 but also for any other GNU package as well. 01:49:13.040 --> 01:49:13.480 So yeah, that's 1 area of potential 01:49:15.660 --> 01:49:16.060 contribution and 1 thing that we sort of, 01:49:17.860 --> 01:49:18.340 I guess, regularly meet with the FSF 01:49:20.140 --> 01:49:20.640 sysadmins to discuss these kinds of projects 01:49:22.120 --> 01:49:22.620 and things as Corwin would know. 01:49:24.520 --> 01:49:24.720 [Speaker 3]: Yeah, that's kind of, I mean, 01:49:26.280 --> 01:49:26.420 you knew exactly where I was going to, 01:49:27.960 --> 01:49:28.420 and I'm glad that you volunteered yourself 01:49:30.040 --> 01:49:30.540 personally because that's the best choice. 01:49:32.320 --> 01:49:32.820 If you're hearing this and you're thinking, 01:49:35.760 --> 01:49:36.260 you know, maybe I should do some sysop stuff, 01:49:38.200 --> 01:49:38.700 literally reach out to Amin. 01:49:41.040 --> 01:49:41.420 And because it's complicated, 01:49:43.040 --> 01:49:43.320 there are a lot of projects to volunteer for. 01:49:44.120 --> 01:49:44.620 They're all very worthy. 01:49:48.760 --> 01:49:49.020 And it's sort of political to figure out what 01:49:52.760 --> 01:49:53.000 we're gonna try to change for whom first to 01:49:55.940 --> 01:49:56.260 demonstrate we can do all the things we wanna 01:49:58.320 --> 01:49:58.440 do to make it better without losing all the 01:50:00.340 --> 01:50:00.540 things that are important about how it is 01:50:04.040 --> 01:50:04.480 today. And we'll do it in a measured way like 01:50:06.500 --> 01:50:06.760 everybody's just like room full of rocking 01:50:09.640 --> 01:50:09.780 chairs everybody's got a long tail it's a 01:50:12.340 --> 01:50:12.620 hard project but you will do something that 01:50:15.380 --> 01:50:15.540 just a lot like as a Savannah hacker which I 01:50:17.920 --> 01:50:18.240 am with Amin So that's how I know about his 01:50:20.080 --> 01:50:20.340 work on that project. We worked together on 01:50:22.300 --> 01:50:22.800 the Savannah Forge. I'm aware of his work 01:50:26.660 --> 01:50:26.980 piloting SourceHut recently and just with a 01:50:29.020 --> 01:50:29.240 working group there to look at the next 01:50:30.540 --> 01:50:31.040 generation of forges for GNU. 01:50:34.160 --> 01:50:34.340 Emacs of course as a GNU package could go do 01:50:36.540 --> 01:50:36.820 its own thing. FFS would most likely give 01:50:38.360 --> 01:50:38.560 cash to go do its own thing, 01:50:39.720 --> 01:50:39.860 even if it didn't like it. 01:50:41.140 --> 01:50:41.520 We know, you know, as a, 01:50:42.800 --> 01:50:43.260 like if I put on, I'm not FSF, 01:50:44.260 --> 01:50:44.600 but if I put on that hat, 01:50:45.800 --> 01:50:46.300 I imagine that we must know. 01:50:50.020 --> 01:50:50.200 Emacs is a flagship thing that people in the 01:50:52.420 --> 01:50:52.800 real world depend on. If I get this ancient 01:50:55.320 --> 01:50:55.820 computer, I get a working Linux distribution 01:50:59.340 --> 01:50:59.500 and Emacs. Maybe it's not Microsoft Word as a 01:51:00.800 --> 01:51:01.300 word processor, but you guys, 01:51:03.080 --> 01:51:03.580 you can learn a language on it for sure, 01:51:05.600 --> 01:51:05.800 you know And you can do your homework on it 01:51:08.300 --> 01:51:08.680 and you know It's it makes your you can edit 01:51:10.580 --> 01:51:10.960 things and then you can edit your system 01:51:13.900 --> 01:51:14.340 files and teach yourself how to manage a GNU 01:51:17.860 --> 01:51:18.040 system and you can You know so Emacs is 01:51:19.540 --> 01:51:19.840 really powerful as a practical tool. 01:51:21.560 --> 01:51:21.720 Like I keep coming back to that point when I 01:51:25.040 --> 01:51:25.320 think about Emacs, like I really put it as 01:51:27.380 --> 01:51:27.880 like, it's an important tool on the like 01:51:31.780 --> 01:51:32.080 humans inventing tools level just because it 01:51:35.080 --> 01:51:35.280 lets me make this editor into whatever I need 01:51:37.580 --> 01:51:38.080 it to be to get my actual work done. 01:51:39.520 --> 01:51:39.860 Whether that's getting the length, 01:51:41.460 --> 01:51:41.600 maybe that's making the font big enough that 01:51:43.260 --> 01:51:43.380 I can see it, or making it easy enough to 01:51:44.760 --> 01:51:45.060 change from this font to that font, 01:51:45.920 --> 01:51:46.420 changing the background colors, 01:51:47.960 --> 01:51:48.460 like your basic vision, 01:51:49.960 --> 01:51:50.460 accessibility issues, right? 01:51:52.740 --> 01:51:53.120 All, you know, solved, 01:51:55.080 --> 01:51:55.320 I can bake that customization in and I can 01:51:56.320 --> 01:51:56.580 pretty much depend on, 01:51:57.900 --> 01:51:58.400 no matter what we change in Emacs, 01:51:59.760 --> 01:52:00.140 I'm gonna accept the new version, 01:52:01.920 --> 01:52:02.220 it's gonna be on the next computer I get, 01:52:03.840 --> 01:52:04.000 I'm going to install the package and my 01:52:05.920 --> 01:52:06.100 configuration that sets all that up will be 01:52:10.960 --> 01:52:11.100 there for me. Right? It's like back to 01:52:13.300 --> 01:52:13.780 Stefan's point, what, 6 and a half hours ago, 01:52:16.120 --> 01:52:16.620 I mean, you know, 20 minutes ago about 01:52:23.680 --> 01:52:24.180 just... Oh gosh, I lost it. 01:52:27.980 --> 01:52:28.260 Boy, I really thought I had handed that 01:52:29.020 --> 01:52:29.520 neatly back to you. 01:52:36.040 --> 01:52:36.220 [Speaker 1]: No problem, Yeah, I think we're in general in 01:52:36.220 --> 01:52:36.720 agreement. 01:52:41.980 --> 01:52:42.480 [Speaker 4]: If we are now in the realm of Concord, 01:52:44.800 --> 01:52:44.960 of harmony, and the realm of midnight in 01:52:47.560 --> 01:52:47.720 Europe, Should we bring this discussion to a 01:52:49.200 --> 01:52:49.460 close or we could go all night, 01:52:51.180 --> 01:52:51.500 but I'll need to explain to my employer why 01:52:52.720 --> 01:52:53.220 my eyes are barely open tomorrow. 01:52:56.600 --> 01:52:57.100 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, I think that's probably a good idea. 01:52:59.960 --> 01:53:00.460 I see some folks starting to slowly sign off. 01:53:02.740 --> 01:53:03.060 [Speaker 0]: Yeah, also, you know, Leo, 01:53:04.680 --> 01:53:05.180 you could leave and just miss out. 01:53:05.460 --> 01:53:05.960 What? 01:53:13.620 --> 01:53:13.820 [Speaker 7]: Hey, Sasha, can I say something like what an 01:53:15.880 --> 01:53:16.020 amazing job with everything you're doing in 01:53:16.960 --> 01:53:17.300 the community over the years? 01:53:18.820 --> 01:53:19.240 I'm so impressed with Emacs News. 01:53:22.020 --> 01:53:22.160 What a great resource to stay up to date in 01:53:24.720 --> 01:53:24.760 Emacs. Just really hats off to you for a 01:53:25.080 --> 01:53:25.580 whole lot. 01:53:26.680 --> 01:53:26.880 [Speaker 3]: Thank you 01:53:29.440 --> 01:53:29.700 [Speaker 0]: very much. It actually turned out to be quite 01:53:31.840 --> 01:53:32.220 timely that John Wheatley had suggested it 01:53:35.020 --> 01:53:35.140 back when he was maintainer because when I 01:53:36.980 --> 01:53:37.200 had the kiddo, I suddenly had 0 time to 01:53:38.000 --> 01:53:38.440 actually write new things. 01:53:39.560 --> 01:53:39.840 But reading things is fine. 01:53:41.820 --> 01:53:42.040 I can just speed read all the Reddit things 01:53:43.160 --> 01:53:43.660 and put the links together. 01:53:45.800 --> 01:53:46.300 So I'm very glad that Emacs news is helpful. 01:53:49.080 --> 01:53:49.580 [Speaker 7]: it really is, yeah. 01:53:55.380 --> 01:53:55.880 [Speaker 3]: It is, So, okay, now let's try to go for our 01:54:00.040 --> 01:54:00.480 closing thoughts here while Leo's still here. 01:54:01.740 --> 01:54:02.140 And then if we wanna keep rolling, 01:54:04.760 --> 01:54:05.260 even after Leo drops, we won't tell him, 01:54:06.420 --> 01:54:06.920 we'll tell him we're stuck. 01:54:12.380 --> 01:54:12.540 [Speaker 4]: I guess that was a beacon to me to perhaps go 01:54:14.140 --> 01:54:14.440 for the second close of the day I've already 01:54:18.080 --> 01:54:18.380 done it I can do it again But I will prove 01:54:19.300 --> 01:54:19.480 Sasha wrong this time. 01:54:21.020 --> 01:54:21.520 I will miss out if need be because really, 01:54:24.160 --> 01:54:24.660 I have been very impressed with the sleep 01:54:28.700 --> 01:54:29.120 record that you had and I am very envious 01:54:32.040 --> 01:54:32.220 right now of your past ability to sleep more 01:54:33.160 --> 01:54:33.380 than 9 hours per night. 01:54:35.440 --> 01:54:35.560 And I wish I would be able to go back to 01:54:37.300 --> 01:54:37.800 this. But anyway, folks, 01:54:38.560 --> 01:54:39.060 I'm going to drop out. 01:54:40.520 --> 01:54:40.680 People might hang out for a little while 01:54:42.360 --> 01:54:42.520 longer. Bear in mind that Sasha might get 01:54:44.480 --> 01:54:44.980 called at any point to go take care of Kido. 01:54:47.220 --> 01:54:47.720 So this might wrap up very fast afterwards. 01:54:49.780 --> 01:54:49.920 But at any rate, it was my pleasure to be the 01:54:51.420 --> 01:54:51.820 host today. Stefan, thank you for joining. 01:54:53.520 --> 01:54:54.020 Bob, thank you for joining and interacting 01:54:56.040 --> 01:54:56.320 with us and making this a little more 01:54:58.860 --> 01:54:59.020 interactive and more plural than just the 01:55:01.260 --> 01:55:01.760 co-organizers. And on that note, 01:55:03.640 --> 01:55:03.900 I will be leaving. So have a wonderful night, 01:55:05.860 --> 01:55:06.020 everyone. And we'll see you next year for the 01:55:06.740 --> 01:55:07.240 next edition, potentially. 01:55:09.560 --> 01:55:10.060 [Speaker 3]: Thank you, Leo. You're my hero. 01:55:11.580 --> 01:55:12.040 I take everything I said on mumble back. 01:55:12.280 --> 01:55:12.780 You're amazing. 01:55:14.840 --> 01:55:15.340 [Speaker 4]: bye everyone. 01:55:16.400 --> 01:55:16.680 [Speaker 1]: All right, Thank you all. 01:55:17.960 --> 01:55:18.220 Take care. Bye. I will 01:55:20.200 --> 01:55:20.580 [Speaker 6]: also say bye bye. I also need to go to bed. 01:55:22.200 --> 01:55:22.700 Thank you all for this cool conference and 01:55:24.920 --> 01:55:25.080 hopefully we're here through the year and at 01:55:25.900 --> 01:55:26.400 least in 1 year. 01:55:30.900 --> 01:55:31.400 [Speaker 3]: You've probably made the rest of the rest of 01:55:34.440 --> 01:55:34.700 the victorious. You really stepped up. 01:55:38.300 --> 01:55:38.800 [Speaker 5]: your contributions. 01:55:38.980 --> 01:55:39.220 [Speaker 3]: Thanks so much for Yeah, 01:55:40.580 --> 01:55:40.960 [Speaker 1]: thanks so much for being a part of it, 01:55:41.720 --> 01:55:42.100 specifically you, Floey, 01:55:43.480 --> 01:55:43.980 and just everyone. Thank you all. 01:55:48.180 --> 01:55:48.420 [Speaker 6]: Have a nice day or night and we'll hear each 01:55:48.740 --> 01:55:49.240 other. Bye! 01:55:51.220 --> 01:55:51.420 [Speaker 1]: See you. Okay, well, 01:55:51.880 --> 01:55:52.360 [Speaker 3]: Thanks, Zen. I'll go next. 01:55:53.800 --> 01:55:54.300 I'm the next newest, I think. 01:55:59.640 --> 01:56:00.140 Well, I want to say also, 01:56:01.800 --> 01:56:02.300 you know, Bob and Stefan, 01:56:03.660 --> 01:56:03.760 thank you so much for jumping in and 01:56:04.860 --> 01:56:05.360 participating in the closing remarks. 01:56:06.700 --> 01:56:07.200 I too think it's a lot of, 01:56:08.560 --> 01:56:08.960 like, it's fun to just, 01:56:10.760 --> 01:56:11.260 like, share the buzz after the convention. 01:56:13.260 --> 01:56:13.460 We've got all these millions of ideas and 01:56:16.120 --> 01:56:16.480 then to have a group, a little group think 01:56:18.960 --> 01:56:19.460 about what we're walking away from that with. 01:56:22.360 --> 01:56:22.540 What is the temperature of the fire in your 01:56:24.360 --> 01:56:24.860 belly? And it's just... 01:56:28.440 --> 01:56:28.740 I mean, this is 1 of the highlights of my 01:56:30.200 --> 01:56:30.700 year in a way that it's just... 01:56:31.780 --> 01:56:31.970 I don't think other people... 01:56:33.880 --> 01:56:34.120 I don't think I dare explain it to other 01:56:35.880 --> 01:56:36.020 people. I think my wife understands and I 01:56:40.600 --> 01:56:40.860 will do. So thank you very much for this 01:56:42.340 --> 01:56:42.840 conference and the opportunity to participate 01:56:45.540 --> 01:56:46.040 in it. You know, just the conversation, 01:56:48.540 --> 01:56:49.040 how vibrant the chat is on IRC, 01:56:52.080 --> 01:56:52.580 how the variety of talks, 01:56:54.140 --> 01:56:54.640 some of the talks that look like television 01:56:59.380 --> 01:56:59.540 content to me and others that look a lot like 01:57:03.840 --> 01:57:03.960 my talk. And working through your slides and 01:57:06.100 --> 01:57:06.280 doing it live and you know I appreciate that 01:57:10.240 --> 01:57:10.380 we make a place for all those levels and and 01:57:12.720 --> 01:57:13.220 show people how to improve our craft as well. 01:57:26.140 --> 01:57:26.460 I'm not actually dropping or going anywhere. 01:57:29.040 --> 01:57:29.220 I'll continue to talk about eMAX until I get 01:57:30.860 --> 01:57:31.000 the dinner time bell. I've probably got an 01:57:40.240 --> 01:57:40.580 hour here. I'll tell you what will happen 01:57:42.040 --> 01:57:42.160 though is I'm guaranteed to light a 01:57:43.780 --> 01:57:43.940 cigarette. You can already see me kind of 01:57:45.860 --> 01:57:46.160 hovering about my room because I'm trying to 01:57:47.440 --> 01:57:47.780 avoid like smoking on camera. 01:57:49.300 --> 01:57:49.540 I don't know where that came from. 01:57:52.360 --> 01:57:52.860 I'm giving it up in approximately 5 seconds. 01:57:58.980 --> 01:57:59.480 [Speaker 7]: Yeah I'm gonna hop off. 01:58:00.800 --> 01:58:01.300 It's possibly right here. 01:58:02.220 --> 01:58:02.720 I'll work tomorrow. 01:58:06.200 --> 01:58:06.380 [Speaker 3]: I took the next 2 days off. 01:58:07.320 --> 01:58:07.820 I'm actually going camping, 01:58:11.040 --> 01:58:11.280 Stefan. I know I've learned that this 01:58:12.800 --> 01:58:13.300 conference leaves me completely emotionally 01:58:16.360 --> 01:58:16.860 exhausted. I just like, 01:58:18.700 --> 01:58:19.140 I don't know, I watch all, 01:58:20.820 --> 01:58:21.320 I feel like I just connect with all the, 01:58:23.440 --> 01:58:23.640 like it's this time where I connect with all 01:58:25.260 --> 01:58:25.580 these people that spend as much time thinking 01:58:26.580 --> 01:58:27.080 about Emacs as I do. 01:58:31.480 --> 01:58:31.760 [Speaker 0]: All right, so maybe we should wrap up before 01:58:32.440 --> 01:58:32.940 you have like, you know, 01:58:35.380 --> 01:58:35.880 that overflow error and just... 01:58:38.000 --> 01:58:38.500 [Speaker 3]: In buster thrill, okay. 01:58:41.720 --> 01:58:41.980 Thank you 01:58:45.200 --> 01:58:45.440 [Speaker 0]: so much, everyone. Let us actually wrap up 01:58:47.360 --> 01:58:47.440 then. Everyone can find the recordings if you 01:58:48.640 --> 01:58:49.140 want to keep the conversation going. 01:58:51.900 --> 01:58:52.120 There are meetups, there are people's blog 01:58:54.240 --> 01:58:54.520 posts and video channels and mailing lists 01:58:55.320 --> 01:58:55.820 and all those other things. 01:58:58.820 --> 01:58:59.180 I often I list a lot of meetups in Emacs news 01:59:00.680 --> 01:59:01.080 so that's another great way to stay connected 01:59:02.560 --> 01:59:03.060 through the year and we hope to see everybody 01:59:04.740 --> 01:59:05.240 next year at EmacsConf 2024. 01:59:11.260 --> 01:59:11.420 [Speaker 4]: Thanks Sasha for the send off and goodbye to 01:59:16.740 --> 01:59:16.940 everyone. Oh Sasha I think you were muted but 01:59:18.340 --> 01:59:18.520 yes I was still there I assume that's what 01:59:21.220 --> 01:59:21.720 you just said. I lied. 01:59:23.680 --> 01:59:23.920 I was staying around like Corwin was. 01:59:25.440 --> 01:59:25.580 I just said goodbye, but then I wait in the 01:59:26.520 --> 01:59:27.020 bushes, waiting for the ambush. 01:59:29.340 --> 01:59:29.840 [Speaker 3]: Well I'm personally surprised, 01:59:32.780 --> 01:59:33.040 speaking for myself. I wouldn't have guessed 01:59:36.040 --> 01:59:36.340 that would happen. All right, 01:59:36.340 --> 01:59:36.580 [Speaker 4]: The perfect moment. well, 01:59:37.360 --> 01:59:37.680 I guess that's a wrap then. 01:59:39.060 --> 01:59:39.560 Thank you, everyone, and see you next year. 01:59:43.440 --> 01:59:43.740 [Speaker 3]: I thought we were clear like 10 minutes ago. 01:59:45.340 --> 01:59:45.840 Are we not? We are, right? 01:59:47.400 --> 01:59:47.780 We're definitely clear. 01:59:48.040 --> 01:59:48.220 [Speaker 5]: OK, I'm 01:59:49.240 --> 01:59:49.440 [Speaker 3]: hanging up now. Good night. 01:59:50.640 --> 01:59:51.140 It was wonderful to meet you. 01:59:51.900 --> 01:59:52.400 [Speaker 7]: Take care Corwin 01:59:56.520 --> 01:59:57.020 [Speaker 4]: Bye Stefan. Bye. Bye all