About five seconds until we go live.
And we are live!
Hello again!
It's the first time you're seeing me today, and hopefully you're still laughing from
the little joke Carl had at the end of his talk.
Hi Carl, how are you doing?
I'm fine thanks, how are you doing?
I'm doing pretty fine, but I am currently struggling to make my windows slightly larger
because what am I doing?
Okay, okay, I think people can see me relatively well right now.
Yeah, I am doing well, and thank you for the joke.
It feels like when I see people wearing suits during a BBB presentation, or sorry, not a
BBB presentation, an EmacsConc presentation, I feel like it's a reply to my own style and
I feel attacked.
But I will just confirm, how do I do this without making too much of a fool, I will
lower my standing desk, and you can see that I am actually wearing trousers.
So yes, I am wearing socks and sandals because it's really cold right now and it's very comfortable
as well.
Don't ask me on this, but I am technically more dressed than you are.
Well this was a lederhose, actually a quite nice lederhose, which you wear for specific
occasions.
It's not considered as something special.
No, definitely, but it is looking a little bit odd to my French style.
Yeah, especially the combination, yes, you're right.
Right, we could be talking about hours for this, but I suppose people are not actually
here to hear us talk about this, but about you talk.
I'm not going to make the affront of asking if you've got the pad open, considering that
you have been managing the pad and helping us manage the pad for what, three years now,
or something?
Yeah, but this year, actually, it's doing great without my help, so yeah.
Actually there are already two answers.
Somebody was nice enough to copy my answers from the IRC to here.
Can you filter out blocked tasks on stuff like your agenda, on specific agenda view,
when you want to know what you can do next?
That's a tricky question.
The blocked tasks are never shown on the agenda by default.
Whenever there is no scheduled timestamp attached to a heading, it's not visible on my agenda.
If you use the dependencies, as I described it in the demo, you will see that the scheduled
timestamp, or date stamp, is only added when the previous one is marked as done, or canceled.
So therefore, blocked tasks are never shown on the agenda by default, if you use it in
this, in that way.
The functionality seems quite nice, but the markup seems pretty heavy in the property
drawers.
Do you ever have any issues having so much meta-level information?
No, as long as I don't have to type it manually, I don't see any issue at all, so far.
Because I tend to have very, rather large org-mode files in any way.
So far, I haven't thought of, oh my gosh, this is so bloated, I need to simplify it.
Not yet.
Looking for the IRC, if there is something going on.
If not, we'll be able to, because this is the showdown people were waiting.
Two years ago, you wrote an article about Algrom not being good, and I'm being polite.
We need to fight this out right now.
Yeah, sure.
Actually, I do think that Zettelkasten methods are interesting, but so far, I haven't seen
much use in my personal use.
But I can imagine that, for example, if you're working on a PhD thesis, or you're studying
in some research field and so forth, it's quite handy.
The only thing my concept so far doesn't have what the usual Zettelkasten methods do provide
is this visual navigation method, which I would not use anyway.
So I don't see any purpose at all for Zettelkasten methods for my personal use cases, as long
as I don't think that this visual navigation would be very handy in my case.
I'm very happy with the bidirectional links, because they get me from A to B, and I can
connect ideas and headings and tasks and whatnot.
So this is basically the most important part of Zettelkasten method from my perspective.
And this is what these bidirectional links and dependencies provide for me in my personal
setup.
Yeah, and I was taking a jab at it, because even you, with your own article, you were
saying how, you know, it's a title to grab attention, but actually you had a lot of things
Yeah, it was trick-based.
Yeah, I didn't want to say the word, you know, I'm trying to be, like, I didn't read the
actual title that should title the article.
But yeah, I think you were also interested in what we were discussing yesterday.
I can't remember which talk, because we had a number of org talks, but when I was discussing
in one of the Q&A the concept of a slip box for multiple peoples, you seemed to be interested
in this topic as well.
Yes.
Yeah, my personal interest is in personal information management, but collaborative
information management is of course a very related and important part, and I have some
background by writing a PhD thesis on organizing information and files and whatnot, and therefore
I'm interested in the ideas how to make a collaborative, let's say, something that might
actually work within a work group or even larger.
There are some things that overlap between personal information management and collaborative,
for example, I'm sure you know the vocabulary problem, where people do have different mental
models of the same stuff, so therefore finding one common phrase or one common word is a
difficult task to do, and you get these kind of troubles all over the place if you go into
that direction.
Yeah, this is why I think just like a lot of software solutions, they need to be backed
up by strong methodology on the side.
It feels like it's always a balance when you have the tools that are helping you enable
something like Emacs, like Org, like Zorcast, EL, Orgrom, or any kind of the, I don't want
to say Orgrom clone, it's like Dark Souls, when everything becomes a Dark Souls clone,
that's not the point, we have Zorcast and modes in Emacs that allow you to do this no-taking,
so that's the tools.
And then you have the methods on the other end, which are about how do you use those
tools to work with multiple people, we're only talking about collective sandbox here.
And yeah, there is obviously the vocabulary discussion, the point that Carl just mentioned,
there are some solutions methodologically, like you can have a taxonomy of all the words
you're using, if you have a list of patterns, for instance, it's good to fix the language
within a file, so that you can have something that people can read.
It's kind of like, you have dictionaries, obviously, but it reminds me of some very
specific dictionaries, like the hacker dictionary, when you have a lot of entries, where people
can learn the lingua, how to use the internet, how to chat on IOC, stuff like this, it feels
like a group sandbox is always going to be oriented towards solving a particular project,
I think, and I think taxonomy and vocabulary would be very important to have.
Anyway, I don't want to take too much, this is a very interesting topic, obviously, you
wrote a PhD on it, and I wrote software on it, and you've wrote software on it as well,
but we should probably talk about this later, at least, but maybe come up with something
to present in a year or so.
Okay.
So, somebody wrote the BBB is not open yet, I don't know if it's on purpose or not.
I'll do this now.
You'll see me whisper, you'll see something very fancy, look at me, I'm going to press
the button, you're going to see something appear at the bottom to talk to production,
this is the thing that I've developed since yesterday, it's amazing, wasn't it?
This was technology, right there.
So yes, the BBB will be open in about 30 seconds to one minute.
And people, it's the first one of the day, so I'll do the reminder.
In order to join us in a room right now, where I'm talking with Carl, you will need to go
to the talk page, so you can find all the talks on emaskov.org-2022.
Then you find the talk by Carl Voigt, you can look for his name, you click on the link
over there and at the top you will have a link to the BBB room in which we are currently. Also
if you're on IRC you will just have gotten a notification about joining the room. So in the
meantime Carl, how about we answer some of the new questions that you have on the pad whilst people
get warmed up. Sure. So the next one, does this change how you use to-do keywords next to do
blocked? Avoiding some or starting to use others? No. I don't see any connection. And my keywords
are next, oops, next, started, waiting, done, cancelled. That's basically it if you're interested.
But my configuration is online anyway. I can paste the link later. And yes, I can paste the link to
my thesis as well as ask on the IRC. Carl, if you don't mind, I do have a quick question because
I'm going to forget otherwise. We have someone in IRC asking you, is your PhD published? I'm not a
PhD but your thesis is published. Yes, of course. Everything of my PhD is public including the actual
research work, the hard figures of the user experiments and the derived functions, everything
of course. The later one actually should be also in org mode so 100% reproducible which was very
important to me. Would you have a link, so maybe not right now but in the pad, could you include a
link later on? I've already wrote down a question for that on my own so that I don't forget to
answer it afterwards. Okay, amazing. Thank you. You can continue with the questions. We also have
people joining on. I see microphones now and some of the people joining on BBB so I'm excited. I'm
getting ready for your questions. But in the meantime, Carl, feel free to go. I'm answering
all the questions in the pad anyway so if somebody is asking something in the BBB, I'm open to it.
Right, there is just one other thing I need to say. We need to move with the next talk in about
eight minutes. So, Carl, if you could maybe not rush but answer fairly quickly the last questions
on the pad, then we can move on to live Q&A inside BBB. Sure. OrgBrain has stuff like parent links
and directional links, sibling links, and if org.roam.else had nothing else interesting,
what about, like, the previous stuff? I'm going to be honest, I'm not sure what the previous stuff
was either. So, referring to side window, where it's not only the linked heading, so not only the
link is shown but actually some heading title and short contents below it. So, that's very handy
when you are looking, like, or is it relevant, or it's not relevant.
To me, it's not relevant at the moment. I don't have the requirement for specific link types
or directions. I like how, Carl, you feel obligated to write and speak at the same time.
Like, you can let go of your responsibility as the pad. We have another volunteer helping you
with the pad right now, so don't worry about it. Perfect. So, do you find that the links are fragile,
hard to maintain? No, not at all. The only thing that I have to remark here is probably that
sometimes I rename the links when the heading actually was renamed afterward and the link name
isn't reflecting the actual heading. Then I do a quick search and replace all of my Org Mode files,
but that's basically it. So, no, I really love the bi-directional and uni-directional links,
and it doesn't give me any burden to maintain them. Would it be of interest to, like, make auto
description for links in Org? You have an ID, you don't have any description, but then
description is generated automatically. My IDs are auto-generated and they are generated from
the heading title, so usually my links are pretty much self-explanatory.
Oh, so what you're referring to is that you have a link, then you rename the linked heading,
and then you change the link ID. Oh yeah, that's true. Links are not synchronized with their
headings once they are generated, but usually a heading title is not changed that often by me,
so this is not a really important problem in my use cases. PhD thesis unlinked later.
Why not Org UUIDs for IDs and the Preferences human-readable ones? Yeah, I hate UUIDs because
they tell me nothing at all, so I want to get an idea to what I'm linking to. Therefore, I've got
rid of all UUIDs in my setup and I prefer something that gives me as a user an idea of
what's happening when I open up this link. Sorry, have you been able to hear me? Is it
the first OTS mic of the conference? Wow, this is amazing. I was mispressing the button, I think.
I apologize humbly, deeply, and sincerely about the hot mic. No problem.
Do you have or use anything for what links here to this heading in a more occurred grep style
buffer and auto? No, not yet. I'm not using that, but I may be able to what links to here
by looking for the ID. All the heading IDs start with a date stamp and then a
string which is made up from the heading title. If I want to see what links to this specific heading
without having backlinks, I usually use org occur within the buffer and get the result right away.
All right, I'm just going to give you, I have the bad role here, I have to be the man with
the watch telling you that we have about three minutes left in this talk and afterwards we'll
need to move on to the next one. So you have about two minutes. Carla, I didn't ask you if
you had anything else to add over your talk. I wish we had more time to discuss because it's
a very interesting topic, but sadly we will have to get going with the next talk in two minutes.
So the next two minutes are yours. I continue answering questions on the
pad of course and you'll see me around on the IRC. I'm still around in IRC. I will answer all
the questions on the pad even after we continue and everybody who wants to get in touch and talk
about this stuff may find me on the internet. Sure, there is still the nebulous concept.
Every Microsoft says we should have a meeting room for maintainers or for people well invested
into org and melpa stuff and package writing because it feels like if we have so many ideas
and so far the only person who's been able to implement every single idea they have is
Alfa Papa because I have no idea how they do it. That's actually a group of people I think.
Yes, we need to check if Alfa Papa appeared in two different rooms at the same time. I need to
confirm this for my own sanity. But yeah, barring Adam from being able to do this, we have so many
ideas and it feels like if we were talking about them with other people we might be able to implement.
I've been asking about the cloning machine so maybe Alfa Papa got one.
Yeah, well anyway I'm sorry for cutting the conversation a little short but we will have
to get started with the next talk. So thank you so much Karl for taking the time first to send a
recording to us for answering questions now and also for being a volunteer for eMaximum. Thank
you so much for all of those three things. Oh, you're welcome. We will probably see you next
year. I am now definitely set on expecting a Cardboard talk every year and you will have to
top it next year. I'm not sure what you will find to make the end funny but you have set the bar
quite high and you need to go even higher this time. Next time without the Leda Jose oil.
As long as you don't show up, put more clothes, not fewer garments, please.
We will have to get started with the next talk. Thank you so much Karl. No, I'm sorry. We need to
get moving to the next talk. I'll be closing the BBB room and we'll start with the next talk at
the top of the minute in 30 seconds. Bye-bye everyone. Bye. All right, we are not live anymore.
Thank you so much Karl. I have to get going. We need to make sure everything works now.
Sure. Bye. Bye-bye.