WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:08.160 Okay, so we seem to be back. Sorry for the little shuffling chairs around. We are now live with 00:08.160 --> 00:16.400 Sid. Hi, Sid. Let me contextualize a little bit for the people because we are on Gen right now 00:16.400 --> 00:00:18.620 and the talk was happening on Dev. NOTE Short recap of what the talk was about? 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:22.800 Sid, can I ask you explaining what your talk was about in about 00:22.800 --> 00:28.560 one to two minutes? Yes, sure. The talk was called Maintaining the Maintainer's Attribution 00:28.560 --> 00:35.200 as a Model for Open Source Projects, and the idea is that instead of having an economic system based 00:35.200 --> 00:40.160 on supply and demand, which is capitalism, we have an economic system based on attribution 00:40.160 --> 00:47.120 and agreement, the power of our words, taking on incentives in the world, and that this can work 00:47.120 --> 00:52.240 for open source projects as a proving ground, and I think it can scale beyond that, and I hope it 00:52.240 --> 00:59.920 will scale beyond that in general. Okay, well I think you did, I'm not sure if you rehearsed 00:59.920 --> 01:05.040 this before, but that was such a perfect elevator speech for your talk. I am beyond amazed. 01:06.720 --> 01:10.960 Thank you, thank you. It's the adrenaline from being late and all the time zone shifting. 01:12.080 --> 01:19.920 You're not supposed to mention this, you know. You know, the things we keep telling people, 01:19.920 --> 01:24.560 you know, is that EmacsConf, yes, you see us rustling and being really grumpy when we don't 01:24.560 --> 01:30.640 get prereq, but really the live event is one part of EmacsConf, but really the better part of it is 01:30.640 --> 01:37.600 just having all the talks out of the head of people online, easily viewable, easily accessible 01:37.600 --> 01:42.000 with subtitles and stuff like this. So don't worry, it's fine if you're all right for submitting a 01:42.000 --> 01:46.720 prereq, it's fine if you don't show up to the Q&A, eventually we will find you, we will ask you the 01:46.720 --> 01:51.840 questions and all the data will be out there, so don't worry about it. Yeah, the magic of editing 01:51.840 --> 01:57.360 and stuff like that, you know. Yes, but we don't have it now, so we'll have to stick, you know, 01:57.360 --> 02:02.800 time is going to dilute, we'll have to stick with strict adherence to chronology right now. So 02:02.800 --> 02:07.680 starting with Sid, do you want to take the first question on the pad? Okay, let's look at them. NOTE What's the incentive to pay? 02:09.280 --> 02:14.960 So the first question is, this seems to assume that there will be money contributions commensured 02:14.960 --> 02:20.400 with the value of the project versus everyone freeloading because there's no incentive to pay. 02:21.840 --> 02:26.400 Right, so actually there is an incentive to pay, so I think what the question is referring to 02:26.400 --> 02:32.720 is that everyone is going to pay to other projects, or no one is going to pay to projects because 02:32.720 --> 02:38.080 they're free anyway and you can use them and you don't have to pay, but one of the new things 02:38.080 --> 02:43.920 with attribution-based economics is the idea that in open source projects we agree, we all 02:43.920 --> 02:50.400 collectively agree on a fair market price for a project, and this isn't a price in the sense that 02:50.400 --> 02:55.200 you are prohibited from using the product until you pay the price, but rather it's for an accounting 02:55.200 --> 02:59.920 purpose, which is that if you pay more than that price, then that means you are now an investor, 03:00.480 --> 03:06.080 and so you can sort of, that means you are now attributable in future revenues that come to the 03:06.080 --> 03:11.520 project. So if you think there's a project that's going to do some nice things, you can essentially 03:11.520 --> 03:16.160 buy shares in it, except these are not ownership shares, they're shares and attribution because 03:16.160 --> 03:22.240 you contribute value by contributing money and that's attributable, so there is an incentive 03:22.240 --> 03:30.720 to pay, and I think, but also beyond this, the financial model is incredibly complex, 03:30.720 --> 03:36.160 it is much simpler than what we have today in a capitalist world, but still finance is a very 03:36.160 --> 03:43.040 complex thing, and I think we're in the very very early stages of figuring out the financial model, 03:43.040 --> 03:48.480 and I think there's a number, there's tons of open questions, needs a lot of help from people 03:49.520 --> 03:56.480 to figure these out, so there's promising angles here, but I think we have a lot to work out as 03:56.480 --> 04:03.360 well. Should I go to the second question? Yeah, feel free to do so, you are the master, you're 04:03.360 --> 00:04:03.914 in Q&A. NOTE What do you think of projects like OpenQ? 00:04:04.014 --> 00:04:11.040 Okay, so the second question is, are you aware of projects like OpenQ, would that fit the 04:11.040 --> 04:18.960 model in your opinion? I'm actually not familiar with OpenQ, so maybe I should just move on to the 04:18.960 --> 00:04:23.205 next question and come back to that if we have time. Sure. NOTE Are you aware of SourceCred? 00:04:23.305 --> 00:04:25.840 The next one says, I see incredible 04:25.840 --> 04:30.800 amounts of overlap with the source cred system, where attribution of antecedents, graph of 04:30.800 --> 04:36.640 contributions, fair in hindsight, backpropagation. Oh, backpropagation, interesting. I'm sensing a 04:36.640 --> 04:40.560 pattern though, so you are being exposed to stuff that you do not know, which is amazing, that 04:40.560 --> 04:45.760 brings an opportunity to do research later on, but feel free to delay those questions until, 04:45.760 --> 04:49.920 perhaps, I would invite the people who ask those questions in the pad maybe to describe in a little 04:49.920 --> 04:55.520 blurb that Sid can read, what is the meaning of those particular platforms, and in the meantime, 04:55.520 --> 05:00.000 Sid, you can move on to the next questions. Sure, but I will say one thing on the subject of both 05:00.000 --> 05:07.200 of these things, which is that I think it's significantly underappreciated the extent to which 05:07.200 --> 05:13.040 value is created in the world that is both independently created of other value that happens 05:13.040 --> 05:20.720 to be very similar, as well as dependently related and that may be unknown, and this is something 05:20.720 --> 05:26.720 that I call subliminal transmission, which is like if you think about a turbulent flow, 05:26.720 --> 05:30.800 you know, and that's what our world is, you know, we like to have all these linear narratives and 05:30.800 --> 05:37.840 simple stories where I think if you take all of Wikipedia, right, even a single person's life 05:37.840 --> 05:42.240 has more information and richness than all of Wikipedia, so when you think about it in those 05:42.240 --> 05:47.920 terms, you realize just how small our stories are in expressing what really happens and what has 05:47.920 --> 05:53.040 really happened in the world, so from that perspective, I think there's this thing called 05:53.040 --> 05:58.720 subliminal transmission, which is like a turbulent flow where you have little vortices that appear 05:58.720 --> 06:02.480 here and then they disappear, they're gone, but then you see them again here and they're like 06:02.480 --> 06:05.600 bigger, but they're the same, and then you see them in a different place and they're not the 06:05.600 --> 06:11.440 same, they're different, yet somehow the same, and I think our world is like that, and if we have 06:11.440 --> 06:16.960 an economic system that's capable of not saying that, oh, it should be this other way, which it 06:16.960 --> 06:22.480 isn't, but in fact we see this is how it is, let's make sure that we recognize this and empower the 06:22.480 --> 06:29.440 right voices, given that this is how the world is, and from that perspective, I think projects like 06:29.440 --> 06:34.320 OpenQ and SourceCred and any number of others might exist which are creating value in the world, 06:34.320 --> 06:39.360 and I think that we all deserve to be empowered, you know, if we're creating similar kinds of 06:39.360 --> 06:44.320 value, then these are voices that have something useful to say for us moving forward, and they 06:44.320 --> 06:50.640 deserve to be empowered, so yeah, it doesn't have to be causally related, you know, you can have 06:50.640 --> 06:56.080 empowerment of all of these different projects because they work together, so yeah, very long 06:56.080 --> 07:00.720 -winded answer to a short question, or non-question, meta-question. 07:00.720 --> 07:04.480 You're fine, you can be as long-winded as you want, because honestly you have been so 07:04.480 --> 07:10.080 eloquent in your answer, and the little ingestors that accompany these little vertices 07:11.440 --> 07:15.520 do carry on with as much velocity as you want. We will be going until about 07:15.520 --> 07:20.880 52-53 of the current hours, which means we have about 20 more minutes. Also, we have a lot of 07:20.880 --> 07:25.600 questions in the pad, so I would prefer if Sid started answering the questions over the pad first, 07:25.600 --> 07:30.400 but we are going to be opening the pad in about six to seven minutes if you want to join and ask 07:30.400 --> 07:35.520 questions live to Sid, but in the meantime, Sid, sorry, I'm getting tired, it's late, in the meantime, 07:35.520 --> 00:07:39.789 Sid, feel free to answer more questions. Sure, okay, thank you. NOTE How is this different from money? 00:07:39.889 --> 00:07:41.280 The next question is, 07:41.280 --> 07:46.480 how is this different from money? Not in some abstract ownership versus attribution way. 07:46.480 --> 07:52.000 Open-source funding is an incentive problem, which this does not change as far as I can see. 07:54.000 --> 08:00.960 So, on the one hand, it does add new incentives, as we talked about. I'm not sure about the question 08:00.960 --> 08:06.800 of how this is different from money. This isn't proposing to replace money in any way. 08:06.800 --> 08:13.920 Rather, it employs money as, you know, the mechanism by which we recognize value. I think 08:13.920 --> 08:23.440 money is perhaps something that can be revisited and, you know, reflected upon in the future, 08:23.440 --> 08:28.960 but I don't think we need to do that at this stage. At this stage, I'm content to rest on the 08:28.960 --> 08:33.520 black box abstractions of certain things that we've already developed, like money, 08:33.520 --> 08:37.600 as a means of exchange and as a means of recognizing value, and I think we can use that, 08:37.600 --> 08:43.440 so I'm not trying to replace money. Open-source funding is an incentive program. This doesn't 08:43.440 --> 08:47.680 change incentives, so I think we already covered how it does add incentives in the sense that you 08:47.680 --> 08:53.520 can invest in open-source projects, which is a new incentive, and, you know, we also talked about 08:53.520 --> 08:58.080 how there are some unopened questions. I'm not sure if this is one of them. NOTE How would you approach a viable experiment for ABE? 08:58.080 --> 09:07.680 How would you approach a viable experiment? So, the prototype that we have, that we talked about 09:07.680 --> 09:13.760 in the talk, so there's a prototype, for those who didn't watch the talk. We have an open-source 09:14.560 --> 09:19.520 project, you know, it's a GitHub action, and, you know, I love to support other platforms. I'm not 09:19.520 --> 09:24.960 married to GitHub in any way. I don't have any special affection for GitHub. I don't have any 09:24.960 --> 09:31.520 special affection for GitHub. But it's a GitHub action at the moment, and what it will do is, 09:31.520 --> 09:37.120 when you follow all of the processes in the Constitution, which says, you know, 09:37.120 --> 09:43.360 open-source repository, create an issue that solicits related work reports from members of 09:43.360 --> 09:49.600 the public, and then create this folder structure which has a report of the contributors and this 09:49.600 --> 09:55.440 and that, once you do all of that, like initial logistical work, this GitHub action will process 09:55.440 --> 10:00.720 fresh payments that come in, which you report as single line item files, text files. Everything is 10:00.720 --> 10:07.360 text input and output, and then, you know, you can basically get all the accounting done for you by 10:07.360 --> 10:14.960 this system. So, that's what the nature of the experiment is, and I think we're starting with 10:14.960 --> 10:19.840 just one or two repos, because there's tremendous number of unresolved questions, and it's all going 10:19.840 --> 10:27.360 to be resolved through dialogue, agreement. We all decide how this thing works, and I think, 10:27.360 --> 00:10:33.899 you know, there's, yeah, so we'll see about how the experiment goes. NOTE How do you constrain the cognitive and time burdens of deciding the values of attributed contributions? 00:10:33.999 --> 00:10:36.400 Next question, given that 10:36.400 --> 10:45.040 oversight is a social process, how do you constrain the cognitive and time burdens of deciding the 10:45.040 --> 10:54.080 values of attributed contributions? Okay, this is a great question. So, first of all, you know, 10:54.080 --> 11:00.080 let's talk about long-term vision, right? Long-term vision, I don't imagine that any of us, that is, 11:00.080 --> 11:04.160 the actual contributors to the projects, are going to have to worry about this at all. 11:04.160 --> 11:08.240 We're not going to have to engage in this process of what is called dialectical inheritance 11:08.240 --> 11:13.440 attribution, which is, you know, it's a lot of work. There's all these standards and precedents, 11:13.440 --> 11:18.800 and how do you compare ideas versus works versus the materials that went into the project? It's a 11:18.800 --> 11:24.400 very hard problem, and I think it's something we'll be improving upon for possibly even decades. 11:25.200 --> 11:30.000 But at that stage, I believe there will be experts, much like today's investment bankers 11:30.000 --> 11:36.400 and lawyers, investment IP lawyers. These are the people who are going to specialize in it, 11:36.400 --> 11:40.880 going to be professionals, and that's the kind of work that they're going to do, and we can leave it 11:40.880 --> 11:48.000 to them. But at this stage, yes, we have to do it. We have to set these principles and standards in 11:48.000 --> 11:55.840 place. And how do we constrain that? We start with simple heuristics. So, initially, we want to have, 11:55.840 --> 11:59.680 you know, if you can imagine, this is, I don't know, this is probably a bad metaphor, but if you have, 11:59.680 --> 12:07.040 like, a big hole and you're trying to patch it, you know, if you put, like, little tiny things on 12:07.040 --> 12:12.240 it and try to focus on little tiny things, okay, what I'm trying to say is order of magnitude, 12:12.240 --> 12:19.280 right? Let's solve the problem at the first order of magnitude and then get the little harmonics 12:19.280 --> 12:27.520 and, like, solve those over time. So, basically, we want to have usable, workable heuristics that 12:27.520 --> 12:33.760 are low maintenance that solve the majority of the problem for our immediate purposes and then 12:33.760 --> 12:40.960 iterate on those over time and develop proper models, which I think we will start to do in the 12:40.960 --> 12:47.040 next phase. The initial phase is heuristics that are easy and low maintenance and useful. 12:47.040 --> 12:53.600 Right, Sid, I just want to barge in a little bit. I just want to let people know that we have opened 12:53.600 --> 13:00.000 up the Q&A BBB window right now, so the same spiel as usual. If you want to join Sid and ask questions 13:00.000 --> 13:04.160 directly, we still have some questions in the pad. Don't worry, Sid will get to them first. 13:04.160 --> 13:09.040 But if you want to join and have a discussion with Sid, we have until about, we've got about 13:09.040 --> 13:14.240 20, 18 minutes left of discussion there. So, please do not hesitate. This is a very interesting talk. 13:14.240 --> 13:19.840 We have a very interesting speaker as well. So, use this opportunity, please. In the meantime, 13:19.840 --> 13:24.720 Sid, you can answer more questions. Sure. Should we take one from the field? 13:25.360 --> 13:28.080 I guess while people are thinking about it, I'll take one more question, maybe. NOTE How are the attribution amounts calculated? 13:29.360 --> 13:37.440 Okay. So, the next question is, how are the attribution amounts calculated? 13:37.440 --> 13:42.960 Okay, how are the attribution amounts calculated? This is going to be done through standards. 13:42.960 --> 13:49.040 So, there is a, there's a repo, you know, if you go to the github.org account, dream-org, 13:49.040 --> 13:57.760 d-r-y-m-dash-org-slash-foundation. This contains the founding documents of how we will manage this 13:57.760 --> 14:04.080 process. And it can, it is, it will contain more standards. It has a few at the moment, very high 14:04.080 --> 14:10.240 level ones, but we will keep adding more standards there that are general enough to be universally 14:10.240 --> 14:16.880 applicable, and that can be specialized to the individual projects. And the attribution is going 14:16.880 --> 14:22.400 to be decided by these standards, by the members of the public, members of the community. 14:22.400 --> 14:28.240 Yeah. And they calculate, they must add up to 100%. So, it's, you know, and that's okay, actually, 14:28.240 --> 14:36.080 I should say. One of the mechanisms by which attribution will be done initially is this heuristic 14:36.080 --> 14:45.040 procedure called the Analyze, Appraise, Anonymize Attribute Loop. What that means is we first 14:45.040 --> 14:49.600 analyze the project, decompose it into its components, and we can do any number of such 14:49.600 --> 14:53.280 analyses, any number of people can do these analyses, and there can be a decision procedure 14:53.280 --> 14:58.320 for combining them. But that, I digress. We'll keep it simple first. We analyze the project into its 14:58.320 --> 15:05.520 components, then we agree on the proportion of value contributed by each of those components, 15:05.520 --> 15:10.480 then we analyze the activities done by the contributors, and then we analyze the 15:10.480 --> 15:15.120 activities done by the contributors and anonymize them. And we say, this was done, this was done, 15:15.120 --> 15:20.240 this was done, this was done. This is how much proportion of value these activities contribute 15:20.240 --> 15:24.720 to each of these components. And then once you have this chart, this graph of all of these 15:24.720 --> 15:32.880 connections and proportions of value, then you anonymize and you aggregate the sum of proportions 15:32.880 --> 15:38.480 of value by contributor. And contributor is not necessarily a person, a contributor is a 15:38.480 --> 15:45.040 project, it can be an antecedent, it doesn't have to be a direct contributor to the project, 15:45.040 --> 15:50.160 it doesn't have to be someone who wrote code, it can be a person who created a bug report, 15:50.160 --> 15:57.200 or a person who had a good idea for the design. And anyway, so once you do this, you aggregate 15:57.200 --> 16:02.800 by contributor, you have a set of proportions that total up to one, or a set of percentages 16:02.800 --> 16:09.920 that total up to 100, that dictate how the revenues that come into the project are to 16:09.920 --> 16:21.760 be divided amongst all of these antecedents and contributors. Let's see, what's the next question? 16:22.800 --> 16:26.240 Okay, the next question is being written down as we speak. 16:26.240 --> 00:16:29.720 It's fine, we can wait a little bit. NOTE Synchronicity with Bastien's talk last year 00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:33.200 In the meantime, I'll just mention, 16:35.360 --> 16:41.360 so actually, when we keep track of presentation for Emacs, we do have slugs for them. And this 16:41.360 --> 16:47.440 year, the slug for your talk, Sid, was made. And it was not an anodyne choice, because last year, 16:47.440 --> 16:53.360 we also had another talk by a maintainer, or well, the org maintainer, or one of the org maintainers, 16:53.360 --> 16:59.520 Bastien Guerri. And it feels like Bastien's talk was mostly geared towards sustaining 16:59.520 --> 17:05.360 maintenance, and your is more about maintaining the software effort in general. And it feels like 17:05.360 --> 17:13.280 the two talks are related, but yours seems to be more, I wouldn't say visionary, I think they are 17:13.280 --> 17:17.120 very complimentary in nature. I'm not sure, have you been able to watch Bastien's talk from last 17:17.120 --> 17:22.080 year? I have not, but that sounds very interesting. I'll definitely check it out after this. 17:22.080 --> 17:27.360 Right. And I will now stop my blabbering, and you can answer the last question. NOTE What are your assumptions about human nature? 17:28.960 --> 17:32.640 The last question is, what are your assumptions about human nature, 17:33.280 --> 17:42.000 vis-a-vis self-interest versus altruism? The funny thing is, I don't actually feel like 17:42.000 --> 17:50.000 we need to opine on that, from the perspective of an economic system. I mean, yes, we have to 17:50.000 --> 17:55.360 recognize that, you know, some people will say, oh, human nature is fundamentally selfish, or, 17:55.360 --> 18:00.320 you know, we have to be good, and we have to help each other. And I think both of these perspectives 18:00.320 --> 18:07.360 are not necessarily, you know, I don't know if they're necessarily the right way to think about 18:07.360 --> 18:13.040 it, because you have the idea about, well, capitalism assumes people are fundamentally 18:13.040 --> 18:17.840 selfish, or they have to act that way in order to be rational in the system. That's one side of it. 18:17.840 --> 18:22.800 The other side of it is this notion of altruism, right, that somehow you have to help others, 18:22.800 --> 18:28.320 and that, you know, there's like a charitable component, and you have all these people who 18:28.960 --> 18:33.520 make billions and billions of dollars, and then, you know, start giving that away. Which, 18:33.520 --> 18:36.880 you know, if you're going to make billions and billions of dollars, and you give it away, 18:36.880 --> 18:41.600 and like help the world, that's better than not giving it away and not helping the world. 18:41.600 --> 18:46.560 On the other hand, the fact that you got those billions and billions of dollars in a capitalist 18:46.560 --> 18:54.160 economic system, which fundamentally skews the value recognition in ways that, you know, is very, 18:54.160 --> 18:59.840 very subversive and very, very minimizing of the source, the true sources of value, 18:59.840 --> 19:06.160 means that you've led yourself to go down this path and essentially unwittingly and inevitably 19:06.160 --> 19:09.920 ended up causing a lot of problems, too. Like, it's not necessarily the case that if you're 19:09.920 --> 19:14.560 wealthy in a capitalist economy, that you've created a lot of value, because yes, you have, 19:14.560 --> 19:19.040 but at the same time, the net value is not guaranteed to be above zero, really, 19:20.320 --> 19:27.040 because capitalism can't express all forms of value. So I don't think thinking about self-interest 19:27.040 --> 19:35.680 versus altruism is the right way to think about things from the perspective of economic systems. 19:35.680 --> 19:42.480 In an economic system where the incentives are so set up that the maximum value to all 19:42.480 --> 19:47.840 is recognized the most, then it's inevitable that people want to do that. And it doesn't mean that 19:47.840 --> 19:51.280 you're a naturalistic person or a selfish person. You're just going to do it because there are 19:51.280 --> 20:00.240 incentives that are set up that way that everybody agreed on. And I think in such a system, your own 20:00.240 --> 20:07.040 sort of spiritual inclinations towards this are secondary. Not secondary. I don't want to say 20:07.040 --> 20:14.800 secondary. I want to say that they are up to you. And your actions in the world will be rewarded to 20:14.800 --> 20:20.320 the extent that you help others. The more you give, the more you will be empowered. So from 20:20.320 --> 20:25.280 that perspective, you could say that the system rewards altruism. But at the same time, if you're 20:25.280 --> 20:32.320 just giving and you're not in a position where... I mean, the system ensures that if you give, 20:32.320 --> 20:36.560 you're also taken care of, so that you don't have to choose between altruism and selfishness. 20:36.560 --> 20:44.160 Altruism is empowering yourself. So that's kind of the beauty of this system, really. That's the 20:44.160 --> 20:50.240 beauty of an attribution-based system is that you become more empowered by giving more. But we don't 20:50.240 --> 20:54.880 have to get into the spirituality stuff of it, really. It's beside the point as far as the 20:54.880 --> 21:02.400 mechanisms of the economic system go. All right. I think that was the last question, unless I'm 21:02.400 --> 21:09.920 mistaken. That's the last one I see. Yes. Well, you did a fine job answering, however, many 21:09.920 --> 21:15.920 questions before. Again, very lengthy, as you said, but very eloquent, as I will say to you. NOTE What is the URL of the project? 21:17.680 --> 21:22.080 There is one question that appeared on ISE, which was the URL of the project. You mentioned 21:22.080 --> 21:27.520 dream.org. Would you be able to maybe type it out in the chat so that people can 21:27.520 --> 21:32.640 check it, and I'll place it on ISE for the person that was asking? Or on BBB, it's fine, too. 21:34.000 --> 21:41.520 It's actually dream-org. Oh, that's why I did dream.org, which was the problem. 21:43.840 --> 00:21:44.902 It's the GitHub repo. NOTE Check out the prototype, "Old Abe" 00:21:45.002 --> 00:21:47.280 And actually, sorry, you should also check out 21:48.480 --> 21:55.840 dream-org.old-abe. That is the billing prototype, which is the GitHub action, 21:55.840 --> 22:01.520 which you can add to your repo. And it's got all the startup instructions for how you can 22:01.520 --> 22:08.720 set up attribution-based economics. So I'll let you type it out. github.com slash dream 22:10.480 --> 22:18.080 dash org slash old-abe. 22:18.080 --> 22:25.280 It's good for you for remembering it. I will place this in BBB right now. Sorry, 22:25.280 --> 00:22:29.420 not in BBB, in the pad so that people can click on it. NOTE Closing Remarks 00:22:29.520 --> 00:22:32.640 Sid, is there anything else you'd like to 22:32.640 --> 22:41.200 say? We are about at the end of the Q&A right now. I guess attribution-based economics is open for 22:41.200 --> 22:50.560 business, as it were. So if you can go to some of the repos at the dream-org GitHub org account, 22:51.280 --> 22:56.240 many of those repos are starting attribution-based economics. And simx.el in particular is one for 22:56.240 --> 23:00.560 the Emacs community. So I encourage you guys. And of course, old-abe, that's another one that 23:00.560 --> 23:04.560 started. And that's the only one that's actually ready to accept payments and distribute payments, 23:04.560 --> 23:09.120 because we have done the attributions already, given that it was written in the last few days. 23:09.120 --> 23:16.480 But the other ones, we might start payments out, I think, on January 1. So between now and January 23:16.480 --> 23:24.480 1, we'll start doing the attribution process and deciding the antecedents, who's owed what, 23:24.480 --> 23:28.080 what proportion of value came from whom, and all that stuff between now and then. And then we're 23:28.080 --> 23:36.880 going to start paying out from the repositories January 1 is the plan. If you can contribute to 23:36.880 --> 23:41.280 these projects, then that would help prove the model out, and that would create incentives for 23:41.280 --> 23:45.920 people to join. So I encourage you to do so. Thank you. Well, thank you. You've definitely 23:45.920 --> 23:50.320 made a very nice case for it, and people can make their own minds now by checking the link. NOTE A flicker of light and following your curiosity 23:50.320 --> 23:55.280 We really encourage you to follow up on a lot of the talks. It's one thing. One thing that we always 23:55.280 --> 24:02.080 say with Sasha to the people, be they speakers, be they user group members, is that Emacs can't, 24:02.080 --> 24:08.000 and user groups, any kind of community activity for Emacs is about curiosity. And it's one thing 24:08.000 --> 24:14.960 to ignite the flame of curiosity in some peoples. It's actually much better to actually follow the 24:14.960 --> 24:19.120 fuse and see where it leads you. Because, you know, it's a little fuse, a little tiny flame, 24:19.120 --> 24:24.000 a flicker of a flame, a flicker of light going in a direction that might explode so much curiosity 24:24.000 --> 24:32.960 later down the line. I was talking earlier with Blaine about, you know, oh, last year he was 24:32.960 --> 24:39.280 presenting, it had only been six, it had only been, I can't speak English, it's 10.45 a.m. in 24:39.280 --> 24:46.000 my time zone. I'm starting to tire. But he had only started using Emacs six months prior to 24:46.000 --> 24:51.040 presenting, and he was already so proficient in it. And it feels like, it's kind of like in Lost, 24:51.040 --> 24:55.280 you know, when you have the rope and you pull on the rope and it brings you so far away. Well, 24:55.280 --> 25:01.200 do follow this curiosity, be it for what Sid has presented to you today, but for any of the topics 25:01.200 --> 25:04.960 that we've presented to you today. So thank you so much, Sid, for all your time, all your 25:04.960 --> 25:09.280 presentation, and your answers. Thank you so much, Leo. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me.