WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:08.160 now. We seem to be back. Sorry for the little shuffling chairs around. We are now live with 00:08.160 --> 00:16.400 Sid. Hi, Sid. Let me contextualize a little bit for the people because we are on Gen right now 00:16.400 --> 00:22.800 and the talk was happening on Dev. Sid, can I ask you explaining what your talk was about in about 00:22.800 --> 00:28.560 one to two minutes? Yes, sure. The talk was called Maintaining the Maintainer's Attribution 00:28.560 --> 00:35.200 as a Model for Open Source Projects, and the idea is that instead of having an economic system based 00:35.200 --> 00:40.160 on supply and demand, which is capitalism, we have an economic system based on attribution 00:40.160 --> 00:47.120 and agreement, the power of our words, taking on incentives in the world, and that this can work 00:47.120 --> 00:52.240 for open source projects as a proving ground, and I think it can scale beyond that, and I hope it 00:52.240 --> 00:59.920 will scale beyond that in general. Okay, well I think you did, I'm not sure if you rehearsed 00:59.920 --> 01:05.040 this before, but that was such a perfect elevator speech for your talk. I am beyond amazed. 01:06.720 --> 01:10.960 Thank you, thank you. It's the adrenaline from being late and all the time zone shifting. 01:12.080 --> 01:19.920 You're not supposed to mention this, you know. You know, the things we keep telling people, 01:19.920 --> 01:24.560 you know, is that EmacsConf, yes, you see us rustling and being really grumpy when we don't 01:24.560 --> 01:30.640 get prereq, but really the live event is one part of EmacsConf, but really the better part of it is 01:30.640 --> 01:37.600 just having all the talks out of the head of people online, easily viewable, easily accessible 01:37.600 --> 01:42.000 with subtitles and stuff like this. So don't worry, it's fine if you're all right for submitting a 01:42.000 --> 01:46.720 prereq, it's fine if you don't show up to the Q&A, eventually we will find you, we will ask you the 01:46.720 --> 01:51.840 questions and all the data will be out there, so don't worry about it. Yeah, the magic of editing 01:51.840 --> 01:57.360 and stuff like that, you know. Yes, but we don't have it now, so we'll have to stick, you know, 01:57.360 --> 02:02.800 time is going to dilute, we'll have to stick with strict adherence to chronology right now. So 02:02.800 --> 02:07.680 starting with Sid, do you want to take the first question on the pad? Okay, let's look at them. 02:09.280 --> 02:14.960 So the first question is, this seems to assume that there will be money contributions commensured 02:14.960 --> 02:20.400 with the value of the project versus everyone freeloading because there's no incentive to pay. 02:21.840 --> 02:26.400 Right, so actually there is an incentive to pay, so I think what the question is referring to 02:26.400 --> 02:32.720 is that everyone is going to pay to other projects, or no one is going to pay to projects because 02:32.720 --> 02:38.080 they're free anyway and you can use them and you don't have to pay, but one of the new things 02:38.080 --> 02:43.920 with attribution-based economics is the idea that in open source projects we agree, we all 02:43.920 --> 02:50.400 collectively agree on a fair market price for a project, and this isn't a price in the sense that 02:50.400 --> 02:55.200 you are prohibited from using the product until you pay the price, but rather it's for an accounting 02:55.200 --> 02:59.920 purpose, which is that if you pay more than that price, then that means you are now an investor, 03:00.480 --> 03:06.080 and so you can sort of, that means you are now attributable in future revenues that come to the 03:06.080 --> 03:11.520 project. So if you think there's a project that's going to do some nice things, you can essentially 03:11.520 --> 03:16.160 buy shares in it, except these are not ownership shares, they're shares and attribution because 03:16.160 --> 03:22.240 you contribute value by contributing money and that's attributable, so there is an incentive 03:22.240 --> 03:30.720 to pay, and I think, but also beyond this, the financial model is incredibly complex, 03:30.720 --> 03:36.160 it is much simpler than what we have today in a capitalist world, but still finance is a very 03:36.160 --> 03:43.040 complex thing, and I think we're in the very very early stages of figuring out the financial model, 03:43.040 --> 03:48.480 and I think there's a number, there's tons of open questions, needs a lot of help from people 03:49.520 --> 03:56.480 to figure these out, so there's promising angles here, but I think we have a lot to work out as 03:56.480 --> 04:03.360 well. Should I go to the second question? Yeah, feel free to do so, you are the master, you're 04:03.360 --> 04:11.040 in Q&A. Okay, so the second question is, are you aware of projects like OpenQ, would that fit the 04:11.040 --> 04:18.960 model in your opinion? I'm actually not familiar with OpenQ, so maybe I should just move on to the 04:18.960 --> 04:25.840 next question and come back to that if we have time. Sure. The next one says, I see incredible 04:25.840 --> 04:30.800 amounts of overlap with the source cred system, where attribution of antecedents, graph of 04:30.800 --> 04:36.640 contributions, fair in hindsight, backpropagation. Oh, backpropagation, interesting. I'm sensing a 04:36.640 --> 04:40.560 pattern though, so you are being exposed to stuff that you do not know, which is amazing, that 04:40.560 --> 04:45.760 brings an opportunity to do research later on, but feel free to delay those questions until, 04:45.760 --> 04:49.920 perhaps, I would invite the people who ask those questions in the pad maybe to describe in a little 04:49.920 --> 04:55.520 blurb that Sid can read, what is the meaning of those particular platforms, and in the meantime, 04:55.520 --> 05:00.000 Sid, you can move on to the next questions. Sure, but I will say one thing on the subject of both 05:00.000 --> 05:07.200 of these things, which is that I think it's significantly underappreciated the extent to which 05:07.200 --> 05:13.040 value is created in the world that is both independently created of other value that happens 05:13.040 --> 05:20.720 to be very similar, as well as dependently related and that may be unknown, and this is something 05:20.720 --> 05:26.720 that I call subliminal transmission, which is like if you think about a turbulent flow, 05:26.720 --> 05:30.800 you know, and that's what our world is, you know, we like to have all these linear narratives and 05:30.800 --> 05:37.840 simple stories where I think if you take all of Wikipedia, right, even a single person's life 05:37.840 --> 05:42.240 has more information and richness than all of Wikipedia, so when you think about it in those 05:42.240 --> 05:47.920 terms, you realize just how small our stories are in expressing what really happens and what has 05:47.920 --> 05:53.040 really happened in the world, so from that perspective, I think there's this thing called 05:53.040 --> 05:58.720 subliminal transmission, which is like a turbulent flow where you have little vortices that appear 05:58.720 --> 06:02.480 here and then they disappear, they're gone, but then you see them again here and they're like 06:02.480 --> 06:05.600 bigger, but they're the same, and then you see them in a different place and they're not the 06:05.600 --> 06:11.440 same, they're different, yet somehow the same, and I think our world is like that, and if we have 06:11.440 --> 06:16.960 an economic system that's capable of not saying that, oh, it should be this other way, which it 06:16.960 --> 06:22.480 isn't, but in fact we see this is how it is, let's make sure that we recognize this and empower the 06:22.480 --> 06:29.440 right voices, given that this is how the world is, and from that perspective, I think projects like 06:29.440 --> 06:34.320 OpenQ and SourceCred and any number of others might exist which are creating value in the world, 06:34.320 --> 06:39.360 and I think that we all deserve to be empowered, you know, if we're creating similar kinds of 06:39.360 --> 06:44.320 value, then these are voices that have something useful to say for us moving forward, and they 06:44.320 --> 06:50.640 deserve to be empowered, so yeah, it doesn't have to be causally related, you know, you can have 06:50.640 --> 06:56.080 empowerment of all of these different projects because they work together, so yeah, very long 06:56.080 --> 07:00.720 -winded answer to a short question, or non-question, meta-question. 07:00.720 --> 07:04.480 You're fine, you can be as long-winded as you want, because honestly you have been so 07:04.480 --> 07:10.080 eloquent in your answer, and the little ingestors that accompany these little vertices 07:11.440 --> 07:15.520 do carry on with as much velocity as you want. We will be going until about 07:15.520 --> 07:20.880 52-53 of the current hours, which means we have about 20 more minutes. Also, we have a lot of 07:20.880 --> 07:25.600 questions in the pad, so I would prefer if Sid started answering the questions over the pad first, 07:25.600 --> 07:30.400 but we are going to be opening the pad in about six to seven minutes if you want to join and ask 07:30.400 --> 07:35.520 questions live to Sid, but in the meantime, Sid, sorry, I'm getting tired, it's late, in the meantime, 07:35.520 --> 07:41.280 Sid, feel free to answer more questions. Sure, okay, thank you. The next question is, 07:41.280 --> 07:46.480 how is this different from money? Not in some abstract ownership versus attribution way. 07:46.480 --> 07:52.000 Open-source funding is an incentive problem, which this does not change as far as I can see. 07:54.000 --> 08:00.960 So, on the one hand, it does add new incentives, as we talked about. I'm not sure about the question 08:00.960 --> 08:06.800 of how this is different from money. This isn't proposing to replace money in any way. 08:06.800 --> 08:13.920 Rather, it employs money as, you know, the mechanism by which we recognize value. I think 08:13.920 --> 08:23.440 money is perhaps something that can be revisited and, you know, reflected upon in the future, 08:23.440 --> 08:28.960 but I don't think we need to do that at this stage. At this stage, I'm content to rest on the 08:28.960 --> 08:33.520 black box abstractions of certain things that we've already developed, like money, 08:33.520 --> 08:37.600 as a means of exchange and as a means of recognizing value, and I think we can use that, 08:37.600 --> 08:43.440 so I'm not trying to replace money. Open-source funding is an incentive program. This doesn't 08:43.440 --> 08:47.680 change incentives, so I think we already covered how it does add incentives in the sense that you 08:47.680 --> 08:53.520 can invest in open-source projects, which is a new incentive, and, you know, we also talked about 08:53.520 --> 08:58.080 how there are some unopened questions. I'm not sure if this is one of them. 08:58.080 --> 09:07.680 How would you approach a viable experiment? So, the prototype that we have, that we talked about 09:07.680 --> 09:13.760 in the talk, so there's a prototype, for those who didn't watch the talk. We have an open-source 09:14.560 --> 09:19.520 project, you know, it's a GitHub action, and, you know, I love to support other platforms. I'm not 09:19.520 --> 09:24.960 married to GitHub in any way. I don't have any special affection for GitHub. I don't have any 09:24.960 --> 09:31.520 special affection for GitHub. But it's a GitHub action at the moment, and what it will do is, 09:31.520 --> 09:37.120 when you follow all of the processes in the Constitution, which says, you know, 09:37.120 --> 09:43.360 open-source repository, create an issue that solicits related work reports from members of 09:43.360 --> 09:49.600 the public, and then create this folder structure which has a report of the contributors and this 09:49.600 --> 09:55.440 and that, once you do all of that, like initial logistical work, this GitHub action will process 09:55.440 --> 10:00.720 fresh payments that come in, which you report as single line item files, text files. Everything is 10:00.720 --> 10:07.360 text input and output, and then, you know, you can basically get all the accounting done for you by 10:07.360 --> 10:14.960 this system. So, that's what the nature of the experiment is, and I think we're starting with 10:14.960 --> 10:19.840 just one or two repos, because there's tremendous number of unresolved questions, and it's all going 10:19.840 --> 10:27.360 to be resolved through dialogue, agreement. We all decide how this thing works, and I think, 10:27.360 --> 10:36.400 you know, there's, yeah, so we'll see about how the experiment goes. Next question, given that 10:36.400 --> 10:45.040 oversight is a social process, how do you constrain the cognitive and time burdens of deciding the 10:45.040 --> 10:54.080 values of attributed contributions? Okay, this is a great question. So, first of all, you know, 10:54.080 --> 11:00.080 let's talk about long-term vision, right? Long-term vision, I don't imagine that any of us, that is, 11:00.080 --> 11:04.160 the actual contributors to the projects, are going to have to worry about this at all. 11:04.160 --> 11:08.240 We're not going to have to engage in this process of what is called dialectical inheritance 11:08.240 --> 11:13.440 attribution, which is, you know, it's a lot of work. There's all these standards and precedents, 11:13.440 --> 11:18.800 and how do you compare ideas versus works versus the materials that went into the project? It's a 11:18.800 --> 11:24.400 very hard problem, and I think it's something we'll be improving upon for possibly even decades. 11:25.200 --> 11:30.000 But at that stage, I believe there will be experts, much like today's investment bankers 11:30.000 --> 11:36.400 and lawyers, investment IP lawyers. These are the people who are going to specialize in it, 11:36.400 --> 11:40.880 going to be professionals, and that's the kind of work that they're going to do, and we can leave it 11:40.880 --> 11:48.000 to them. But at this stage, yes, we have to do it. We have to set these principles and standards in 11:48.000 --> 11:55.840 place. And how do we constrain that? We start with simple heuristics. So, initially, we want to have, 11:55.840 --> 11:59.680 you know, if you can imagine, this is, I don't know, this is probably a bad metaphor, but if you have, 11:59.680 --> 12:07.040 like, a big hole and you're trying to patch it, you know, if you put, like, little tiny things on 12:07.040 --> 12:12.240 it and try to focus on little tiny things, okay, what I'm trying to say is order of magnitude, 12:12.240 --> 12:19.280 right? Let's solve the problem at the first order of magnitude and then get the little harmonics 12:19.280 --> 12:27.520 and, like, solve those over time. So, basically, we want to have usable, workable heuristics that 12:27.520 --> 12:33.760 are low maintenance that solve the majority of the problem for our immediate purposes and then 12:33.760 --> 12:40.960 iterate on those over time and develop proper models, which I think we will start to do in the 12:40.960 --> 12:47.040 next phase. The initial phase is heuristics that are easy and low maintenance and useful. 12:47.040 --> 12:53.600 Right, Sid, I just want to barge in a little bit. I just want to let people know that we have opened 12:53.600 --> 13:00.000 up the Q&A BBB window right now, so the same spiel as usual. If you want to join Sid and ask questions 13:00.000 --> 13:04.160 directly, we still have some questions in the pad. Don't worry, Sid will get to them first. 13:04.160 --> 13:09.040 But if you want to join and have a discussion with Sid, we have until about, we've got about 13:09.040 --> 13:14.240 20, 18 minutes left of discussion there. So, please do not hesitate. This is a very interesting talk. 13:14.240 --> 13:19.840 We have a very interesting speaker as well. So, use this opportunity, please. In the meantime, 13:19.840 --> 13:24.720 Sid, you can answer more questions. Sure. Should we take one from the field? 13:25.360 --> 13:28.080 I guess while people are thinking about it, I'll take one more question, maybe. 13:29.360 --> 13:37.440 Okay. So, the next question is, how are the attribution amounts calculated? 13:37.440 --> 13:42.960 Okay, how are the attribution amounts calculated? This is going to be done through standards. 13:42.960 --> 13:49.040 So, there is a, there's a repo, you know, if you go to the github.org account, dream-org, 13:49.040 --> 13:57.760 d-r-y-m-dash-org-slash-foundation. This contains the founding documents of how we will manage this 13:57.760 --> 14:04.080 process. And it can, it is, it will contain more standards. It has a few at the moment, very high 14:04.080 --> 14:10.240 level ones, but we will keep adding more standards there that are general enough to be universally 14:10.240 --> 14:16.880 applicable, and that can be specialized to the individual projects. And the attribution is going 14:16.880 --> 14:22.400 to be decided by these standards, by the members of the public, members of the community. 14:22.400 --> 14:28.240 Yeah. And they calculate, they must add up to 100%. So, it's, you know, and that's okay, actually, 14:28.240 --> 14:36.080 I should say. One of the mechanisms by which attribution will be done initially is this heuristic 14:36.080 --> 14:45.040 procedure called the Analyze, Appraise, Anonymize Attribute Loop. What that means is we first 14:45.040 --> 14:49.600 analyze the project, decompose it into its components, and we can do any number of such 14:49.600 --> 14:53.280 analyses, any number of people can do these analyses, and there can be a decision procedure 14:53.280 --> 14:58.320 for combining them. But that, I digress. We'll keep it simple first. We analyze the project into its 14:58.320 --> 15:05.520 components, then we agree on the proportion of value contributed by each of those components, 15:05.520 --> 15:10.480 then we analyze the activities done by the contributors, and then we analyze the 15:10.480 --> 15:15.120 activities done by the contributors and anonymize them. And we say, this was done, this was done, 15:15.120 --> 15:20.240 this was done, this was done. This is how much proportion of value these activities contribute 15:20.240 --> 15:24.720 to each of these components. And then once you have this chart, this graph of all of these 15:24.720 --> 15:32.880 connections and proportions of value, then you anonymize and you aggregate the sum of proportions 15:32.880 --> 15:38.480 of value by contributor. And contributor is not necessarily a person, a contributor is a 15:38.480 --> 15:45.040 project, it can be an antecedent, it doesn't have to be a direct contributor to the project, 15:45.040 --> 15:50.160 it doesn't have to be someone who wrote code, it can be a person who created a bug report, 15:50.160 --> 15:57.200 or a person who had a good idea for the design. And anyway, so once you do this, you aggregate 15:57.200 --> 16:02.800 by contributor, you have a set of proportions that total up to one, or a set of percentages 16:02.800 --> 16:09.920 that total up to 100, that dictate how the revenues that come into the project are to 16:09.920 --> 16:21.760 be divided amongst all of these antecedents and contributors. Let's see, what's the next question? 16:22.800 --> 16:26.240 Okay, the next question is being written down as we speak. 16:26.240 --> 16:33.200 It's fine, we can wait a little bit. In the meantime, I'll just mention, 16:35.360 --> 16:41.360 so actually, when we keep track of presentation for Emacs, we do have slugs for them. And this 16:41.360 --> 16:47.440 year, the slug for your talk, Sid, was made. And it was not an anodyne choice, because last year, 16:47.440 --> 16:53.360 we also had another talk by a maintainer, or well, the org maintainer, or one of the org maintainers, 16:53.360 --> 16:59.520 Bastien Guerri. And it feels like Bastien's talk was mostly geared towards sustaining 16:59.520 --> 17:05.360 maintenance, and your is more about maintaining the software effort in general. And it feels like 17:05.360 --> 17:13.280 the two talks are related, but yours seems to be more, I wouldn't say visionary, I think they are 17:13.280 --> 17:17.120 very complimentary in nature. I'm not sure, have you been able to watch Bastien's talk from last 17:17.120 --> 17:22.080 year? I have not, but that sounds very interesting. I'll definitely check it out after this. 17:22.080 --> 17:27.360 Right. And I will now stop my blabbering, and you can answer the last question. 17:28.960 --> 17:32.640 The last question is, what are your assumptions about human nature, 17:33.280 --> 17:42.000 vis-a-vis self-interest versus altruism? The funny thing is, I don't actually feel like 17:42.000 --> 17:50.000 we need to opine on that, from the perspective of an economic system. I mean, yes, we have to 17:50.000 --> 17:55.360 recognize that, you know, some people will say, oh, human nature is fundamentally selfish, or, 17:55.360 --> 18:00.320 you know, we have to be good, and we have to help each other. And I think both of these perspectives 18:00.320 --> 18:07.360 are not necessarily, you know, I don't know if they're necessarily the right way to think about 18:07.360 --> 18:13.040 it, because you have the idea about, well, capitalism assumes people are fundamentally 18:13.040 --> 18:17.840 selfish, or they have to act that way in order to be rational in the system. That's one side of it. 18:17.840 --> 18:22.800 The other side of it is this notion of altruism, right, that somehow you have to help others, 18:22.800 --> 18:28.320 and that, you know, there's like a charitable component, and you have all these people who 18:28.960 --> 18:33.520 make billions and billions of dollars, and then, you know, start giving that away. Which, 18:33.520 --> 18:36.880 you know, if you're going to make billions and billions of dollars, and you give it away, 18:36.880 --> 18:41.600 and like help the world, that's better than not giving it away and not helping the world. 18:41.600 --> 18:46.560 On the other hand, the fact that you got those billions and billions of dollars in a capitalist 18:46.560 --> 18:54.160 economic system, which fundamentally skews the value recognition in ways that, you know, is very, 18:54.160 --> 18:59.840 very subversive and very, very minimizing of the source, the true sources of value, 18:59.840 --> 19:06.160 means that you've led yourself to go down this path and essentially unwittingly and inevitably 19:06.160 --> 19:09.920 ended up causing a lot of problems, too. Like, it's not necessarily the case that if you're 19:09.920 --> 19:14.560 wealthy in a capitalist economy, that you've created a lot of value, because yes, you have, 19:14.560 --> 19:19.040 but at the same time, the net value is not guaranteed to be above zero, really, 19:20.320 --> 19:27.040 because capitalism can't express all forms of value. So I don't think thinking about self-interest 19:27.040 --> 19:35.680 versus altruism is the right way to think about things from the perspective of economic systems. 19:35.680 --> 19:42.480 In an economic system where the incentives are so set up that the maximum value to all 19:42.480 --> 19:47.840 is recognized the most, then it's inevitable that people want to do that. And it doesn't mean that 19:47.840 --> 19:51.280 you're a naturalistic person or a selfish person. You're just going to do it because there are 19:51.280 --> 20:00.240 incentives that are set up that way that everybody agreed on. And I think in such a system, your own 20:00.240 --> 20:07.040 sort of spiritual inclinations towards this are secondary. Not secondary. I don't want to say 20:07.040 --> 20:14.800 secondary. I want to say that they are up to you. And your actions in the world will be rewarded to 20:14.800 --> 20:20.320 the extent that you help others. The more you give, the more you will be empowered. So from 20:20.320 --> 20:25.280 that perspective, you could say that the system rewards altruism. But at the same time, if you're 20:25.280 --> 20:32.320 just giving and you're not in a position where... I mean, the system ensures that if you give, 20:32.320 --> 20:36.560 you're also taken care of, so that you don't have to choose between altruism and selfishness. 20:36.560 --> 20:44.160 Altruism is empowering yourself. So that's kind of the beauty of this system, really. That's the 20:44.160 --> 20:50.240 beauty of an attribution-based system is that you become more empowered by giving more. But we don't 20:50.240 --> 20:54.880 have to get into the spirituality stuff of it, really. It's beside the point as far as the 20:54.880 --> 21:02.400 mechanisms of the economic system go. All right. I think that was the last question, unless I'm 21:02.400 --> 21:09.920 mistaken. That's the last one I see. Yes. Well, you did a fine job answering, however, many 21:09.920 --> 21:15.920 questions before. Again, very lengthy, as you said, but very eloquent, as I will say to you. 21:17.680 --> 21:22.080 There is one question that appeared on ISE, which was the URL of the project. You mentioned 21:22.080 --> 21:27.520 dream.org. Would you be able to maybe type it out in the chat so that people can 21:27.520 --> 21:32.640 check it, and I'll place it on ISE for the person that was asking? Or on BBB, it's fine, too. 21:34.000 --> 21:41.520 It's actually dream-org. Oh, that's why I did dream.org, which was the problem. 21:43.840 --> 21:47.280 It's the GitHub repo. And actually, sorry, you should also check out 21:48.480 --> 21:55.840 dream-org.old-abe. That is the billing prototype, which is the GitHub action, 21:55.840 --> 22:01.520 which you can add to your repo. And it's got all the startup instructions for how you can 22:01.520 --> 22:08.720 set up attribution-based economics. So I'll let you type it out. github.com slash dream 22:10.480 --> 22:18.080 dash org slash old-abe. 22:18.080 --> 22:25.280 It's good for you for remembering it. I will place this in BBB right now. Sorry, 22:25.280 --> 22:32.640 not in BBB, in the pad so that people can click on it. Sid, is there anything else you'd like to 22:32.640 --> 22:41.200 say? We are about at the end of the Q&A right now. I guess attribution-based economics is open for 22:41.200 --> 22:50.560 business, as it were. So if you can go to some of the repos at the dream-org GitHub org account, 22:51.280 --> 22:56.240 many of those repos are starting attribution-based economics. And simx.el in particular is one for 22:56.240 --> 23:00.560 the Emacs community. So I encourage you guys. And of course, old-abe, that's another one that 23:00.560 --> 23:04.560 started. And that's the only one that's actually ready to accept payments and distribute payments, 23:04.560 --> 23:09.120 because we have done the attributions already, given that it was written in the last few days. 23:09.120 --> 23:16.480 But the other ones, we might start payments out, I think, on January 1. So between now and January 23:16.480 --> 23:24.480 1, we'll start doing the attribution process and deciding the antecedents, who's owed what, 23:24.480 --> 23:28.080 what proportion of value came from whom, and all that stuff between now and then. And then we're 23:28.080 --> 23:36.880 going to start paying out from the repositories January 1 is the plan. If you can contribute to 23:36.880 --> 23:41.280 these projects, then that would help prove the model out, and that would create incentives for 23:41.280 --> 23:45.920 people to join. So I encourage you to do so. Thank you. Well, thank you. You've definitely 23:45.920 --> 23:50.320 made a very nice case for it, and people can make their own minds now by checking the link. 23:50.320 --> 23:55.280 We really encourage you to follow up on a lot of the talks. It's one thing. One thing that we always 23:55.280 --> 24:02.080 say with Sasha to the people, be they speakers, be they user group members, is that Emacs can't, 24:02.080 --> 24:08.000 and user groups, any kind of community activity for Emacs is about curiosity. And it's one thing 24:08.000 --> 24:14.960 to ignite the flame of curiosity in some peoples. It's actually much better to actually follow the 24:14.960 --> 24:19.120 fuse and see where it leads you. Because, you know, it's a little fuse, a little tiny flame, 24:19.120 --> 24:24.000 a flicker of a flame, a flicker of light going in a direction that might explode so much curiosity 24:24.000 --> 24:32.960 later down the line. I was talking earlier with Blaine about, you know, oh, last year he was 24:32.960 --> 24:39.280 presenting, it had only been six, it had only been, I can't speak English, it's 10.45 a.m. in 24:39.280 --> 24:46.000 my time zone. I'm starting to tire. But he had only started using Emacs six months prior to 24:46.000 --> 24:51.040 presenting, and he was already so proficient in it. And it feels like, it's kind of like in Lost, 24:51.040 --> 24:55.280 you know, when you have the rope and you pull on the rope and it brings you so far away. Well, 24:55.280 --> 25:01.200 do follow this curiosity, be it for what Sid has presented to you today, but for any of the topics 25:01.200 --> 25:04.960 that we've presented to you today. So thank you so much, Sid, for all your time, all your 25:04.960 --> 25:09.280 presentation, and your answers. Thank you so much, Leo. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. 25:10.320 --> 25:14.480 Great. I'll still make some last-minute announcement. So we are still running, 25:14.480 --> 25:23.280 sorry, the elves are yelling in my ears again. We will be waiting a little bit for the track, 25:24.480 --> 25:29.280 development track to finish, which should take about five to ten minutes, and we will reconvene 25:29.280 --> 25:33.920 in seven minutes in this channel for the closing remarks for day one. So see you in a bit, 25:33.920 --> 25:48.000 and thank you again, Sid. Thank you. Okay, Sid, we are not live anymore. Thank you so much. I need 25:48.000 --> 25:51.040 to get going. I need to prepare the closing remarks. All right. Thank you so much, Leo. 25:51.040 --> 25:57.760 Appreciate it. Where can I watch the closing remarks? Closing remarks? You go to emacs.org 25:57.760 --> 26:03.520 slash 2022. You'll have everything over there. Watch. I'm going to give you the page. I have 26:03.520 --> 26:11.280 the time to do this. 22, watch. Check on BBB. We will be on the general channel in about 26:11.280 --> 26:28.240 six minutes. Okay, perfect. Thanks, Leo. See you in a bit. See ya.