WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:03.880 Sorry, it's a little tight. I'm doing a lot of stuff behind the scene and now we're ready 00:03.880 --> 00:23.320 to go live in about five seconds. Sorry, five more seconds. Five. And we are live. Hello 00:23.320 --> 00:27.920 again, everyone. Hopefully you can hear me just fine. And we just had a talk with Bob 00:27.920 --> 00:32.800 and Bob is now here in the room. Hi Bob, how are you doing? Hi, doing well. Good to see 00:32.800 --> 00:39.120 you, Leo. You're doing a great job. Well, thank you. I must say, I am back to asking 00:39.120 --> 00:44.160 questions, but for the last two hours, I have been running after pre-recordings. I have 00:44.160 --> 00:48.800 been doing the re-encoding and stuff like this, which means it doesn't look like this, 00:48.800 --> 00:53.220 but this was very much of a marathon. And I'm glad to be here to be in a room with you 00:53.220 --> 00:57.000 because I'm actually going to be able to rest a little bit. 00:57.000 --> 01:04.400 Did you see the presentation? Not yet. Okay, can I lie? If I were able to lie, I would 01:04.400 --> 01:08.960 say yes, I've been very attentively watching everything in a presentation, but sadly, no, 01:08.960 --> 01:13.160 I've been quite busy elsewhere. And because, well, no, we don't need to tell them about 01:13.160 --> 01:20.120 this. But Bob, do you have the pad open in front of you? Yes. Well, I can't look at both 01:20.120 --> 01:26.280 at the same time, but... It's fine. You don't need to see my face. You've seen it. Okay. 01:26.280 --> 01:31.120 I see it here. Can you have multiple implicit button files? If so, how would you know which 01:31.120 --> 01:39.780 link came from what files? I guess they're one-way links, so you embed buttons in any 01:39.780 --> 01:46.600 number of files that you want and you traverse them, or they perform actions for you. There 01:46.600 --> 01:52.900 are three categories of buttons. We were showing you implicit buttons, which is one category. 01:52.900 --> 01:59.800 Then there's explicit buttons, which can also perform arbitrary actions, but those you embed 01:59.800 --> 02:05.860 one at a time in a file and you say, okay, I want this to be a link to an org file section 02:05.860 --> 02:12.560 or something. And then... Sorry for the interruption. Can we keep going? The third kind are global 02:12.560 --> 02:18.500 buttons, which we demonstrated there when you put those in your personal button file, 02:18.500 --> 02:23.920 and then you can access them by name anywhere in Emacs without even having a buffer up on 02:23.920 --> 02:30.560 screen. The next question... So I should just go down the questions? You don't have any 02:30.560 --> 02:36.960 Leo? No, no, feel free. I'm mostly here to be the pretty face that when a problem happens, 02:36.960 --> 02:41.400 I'm here to help. But since you have questions already in the pad, I'm more than happy to 02:41.400 --> 02:45.420 have you answer the question from the pad. And if we have a little more time, I'll come 02:45.420 --> 02:49.560 up with my own questions, so don't worry about it. Yeah, and encourage people to come into 02:49.560 --> 02:57.020 the chat. We can do something live and then go back to the Etherpad and deal with these 02:57.020 --> 03:03.800 later as well if people want to talk. So just to specify this, we might first have you answer 03:03.800 --> 03:07.960 the questions on the pad first and we'll open up the BBT a little later. For now, just you 03:07.960 --> 03:17.340 on the pad. I'll keep you posted. So are we showing the pad so people see it or I need 03:17.340 --> 03:24.480 to share that? So I'm sharing the pad right now, I'm managing what people are seeing on 03:24.480 --> 03:27.840 the stream. You might want to have the pad in front of you and read the question anyway 03:27.840 --> 03:33.480 to know which question you're actually answering. Okay, I do have the pad separately. Okay. 03:33.480 --> 03:40.920 What about using implicit buttons with multiple people with different configs? Not quite sure 03:40.920 --> 03:49.820 what the question is, but hyperbole is always thinking about people working collaboratively, 03:49.820 --> 03:56.880 though it is also somewhat focused on your personal information. So as you saw when we 03:56.880 --> 04:03.940 embedded a variable, either an Emacs list variable or an environment variable in a path, 04:03.940 --> 04:08.620 you can share those with people. You can embed hyperbole buttons in your email messages and 04:08.620 --> 04:13.720 they'll adapt based on the environment that the person activates them in. So there's a 04:13.720 --> 04:22.200 lot of useful kind of capability like that built in for collaboration as well. Coming 04:22.200 --> 04:27.260 in from org mode, would it be a fair assessment that hyperbole is in some way a generalization 04:27.260 --> 04:33.240 of what most people think of the great features of org to work across formats with the hyperbole 04:33.240 --> 04:38.600 links buttons being the recurring example and that it then further adds some capabilities 04:38.600 --> 04:45.500 again across formats being the global miner mode is interesting. I think it goes to RMS's 04:45.500 --> 04:51.280 talk that org's features could be more generalized modularized. How is hyperbole in that respect? 04:51.280 --> 04:56.800 Yes, it hyperbole is meant to give you all of these capabilities across your entire Emacs 04:56.800 --> 05:05.000 experience. So everything you saw in org mode works and all sorts of other buffer types 05:05.000 --> 05:13.560 to accept the pieces that were activating org's specific features. Internal radio targets, 05:13.560 --> 05:22.560 are they able to link to other org mode files that are part of my agenda? Certainly you 05:22.560 --> 05:33.960 can have, you can make a link type that crosses similar to what you saw in the K outliner 05:33.960 --> 05:41.040 links where you specified a file and then it just would have the sub part of the link 05:41.040 --> 05:48.640 that you wanted that would reference the target as well. Your package advances how useful 05:48.640 --> 05:53.880 a mouse can be with creating links. That we didn't show but you can just drag between 05:53.880 --> 05:59.240 windows and create an explicit link between things as well. Do you have any experience 05:59.240 --> 06:03.640 or thoughts about how touchscreens or mice could be used or improved with Emacs? Yes 06:03.640 --> 06:13.080 I do. In fact, when hyperbole was conceived originally it was part of a broader research 06:13.080 --> 06:19.640 project called personalized information environments. At the dawn of the web is when this started 06:19.640 --> 06:25.800 and we kind of figured people would be deluged with maybe 5,000 email messages a day or just 06:25.800 --> 06:33.240 all sorts of things like we are deluged with today. So we were thinking about sort of like 06:33.240 --> 06:41.160 org brain and the graphical sort of navigation that you could do in hyper versus and came 06:41.160 --> 06:51.920 up with some prototypes that were kind of very iPad like in the node sort of views but 06:51.920 --> 06:58.760 with much greater navigation capability. So a lot of that isn't implemented but we are 06:58.760 --> 07:04.400 always thinking about how to make things more useful and you see the smart context handling 07:04.400 --> 07:10.360 that the mouse keys do because there's drags associated with the action and the assist 07:10.360 --> 07:16.800 keys when put onto mice and those do a great many things that sort of replicate what a 07:16.800 --> 07:22.960 touchscreen might do as well. Would you consider hyperbole to be more of a format spec that 07:22.960 --> 07:28.240 can then be handled however we want or the engine itself along with that format i.e. 07:28.240 --> 07:33.620 can the simple link formats be used for other extensible purposes. Yes again hyperbole was 07:33.620 --> 07:39.560 conceived as a hypertext engine that would be part of the personalized information environments 07:39.560 --> 07:47.600 or pies and it would link that engine would then be available to multiple applications. 07:47.600 --> 07:57.560 So we sort of built an API not a web API but just a programming API that you can use and 07:57.560 --> 08:03.960 that's documented in the manual to build other applications atop hyperbole. It turned out 08:03.960 --> 08:09.280 that a lot of people didn't have that capability to program it so we just kept programming 08:09.280 --> 08:14.640 a lot of these default features that you see today with all the button types to show people 08:14.640 --> 08:20.760 what was possible. How is the integration with org roam? We're just starting to look 08:20.760 --> 08:29.240 at that you know again I just find with hyperbole there are no external required packages you 08:29.240 --> 08:34.640 just load hyperbole and whatever Emacs has that's all that it needs so that's kind of 08:34.640 --> 08:40.080 unique for such a big package like this. There are optional things like ace window that you 08:40.080 --> 08:45.200 can add on and then hyperbole will work with them but they're not required. So similarly 08:45.200 --> 08:55.760 we try to never have any separate C compiled programs like SQLite or org roam which uses 08:55.760 --> 09:03.600 SQLite that's required. However we interface to external systems like that so basically 09:03.600 --> 09:12.400 you know we'll do some interesting things with org roam nodes in the near future. When 09:12.400 --> 09:19.200 does something when doing something where do you determine where to put it k-o-t-l rollo 09:19.200 --> 09:28.080 org? I like k-o-t-l k-outline for journaling and org mode for getting things done. Sure 09:28.080 --> 09:37.820 I mean you know org and k-outliner are both outline formats so I like k-outliner for like 09:37.820 --> 09:44.480 requirements gathering anytime I need things numbered quickly I'm making lists or hierarchies 09:44.480 --> 09:52.040 I want those IDs there. Org does some of that but not nearly to the level that the k-outliner 09:52.040 --> 09:58.600 does. The rollo again I just stuff all sorts of information in there and then we have very 09:58.600 --> 10:04.440 simple search and retrieval operations that we can use on there so I don't need to worry 10:04.440 --> 10:10.880 about all of these like drawers and all the complexity that org allows because you want 10:10.880 --> 10:16.760 to publish something. I tend to use everything as a live hypertext and don't worry about 10:16.760 --> 10:22.320 printing it out or displaying it in some other format too much. So it depends on your taste 10:22.320 --> 10:28.320 I would say. Would you recommend a specific resource for getting into hyperbole or should 10:28.320 --> 10:33.080 I just start with the manual? Definitely interested in getting into this. Thank you for asking 10:33.080 --> 10:39.600 that. Definitely don't start with manual. The manual is almost 170 pages it's a reference 10:39.600 --> 10:45.760 manual for specific things that you want to know. For learning once you install hyperbole 10:45.760 --> 10:55.080 part of the menu system is control H HDD for documentation and then demo and that puts 10:55.080 --> 10:59.080 you into an interactive demo that you just walk through so it's sort of like the Emacs 10:59.080 --> 11:06.980 tutorial and that'll get you started much better than any other way and the second thing 11:06.980 --> 11:13.960 to do after that I would say is watch some of the videos. One of the videos is a talk 11:13.960 --> 11:19.800 I gave earlier that's about an hour-long talk introducing you to hyperbole and its concepts 11:19.800 --> 11:25.280 so I think those are the two best ways to get started and then you can move on to the 11:25.280 --> 11:32.240 reference manual if you're really good at reading. What is hyperorg? That's a name that 11:32.240 --> 11:41.360 Sasha made up I believe for the talk here. I thought it should be hyperborg. It would 11:41.360 --> 11:48.200 be a little funnier that right we're trying to be like a borg and get people to use hyperbole 11:48.200 --> 11:55.440 and org together and then you'll never you'll never want to be anything else except users 11:55.440 --> 12:05.920 of those packages. Anybody want to talk live on the big blue button? 12:05.920 --> 12:11.960 Again so the thing is I didn't give you the time when we were supposed to finish with 12:11.960 --> 12:22.720 the Q&A and give me just a second. I've confirmed with the people behind me that we actually 12:22.720 --> 12:26.080 need to get moving to the next talk at the top of this minute so Bob thank you so much 12:26.080 --> 12:29.320 for answering so many questions. I'm sorry we don't have more time for questions because 12:29.320 --> 12:33.200 your talk I think was a little longer than we anticipated at first but I still believe 12:33.200 --> 12:35.840 you've done a great job at first covering a lot of stuff. 12:35.840 --> 12:40.080 I'll be on the etherbed for a little while if people want to push anything else there. 12:40.080 --> 12:44.040 Also if you want to stay here we are going to open the BBB if people want to ask you 12:44.040 --> 12:51.360 questions we're going to publish the link. Bob we're going to need to get going with 12:51.360 --> 12:54.560 the stream we're starting the next talk in 20 seconds thank you so much and I'll see 12:54.560 --> 13:14.640 you later. Take care Leo thank you. Bye bye. 13:24.560 --> 13:36.400 Gosh yeah pretty much I mean I'm still on this thing if it shows up for a minute but 13:36.400 --> 13:56.480 nobody's there. 13:56.480 --> 14:13.060 Take care. 14:26.480 --> 14:28.540 you 14:56.480 --> 14:58.540 you 15:26.480 --> 15:28.540 you 15:56.480 --> 15:58.540 you 16:26.480 --> 16:28.540 you 16:56.480 --> 16:58.540 you 17:26.480 --> 17:28.540 you 17:56.480 --> 17:58.540 you 18:26.480 --> 18:28.540 you 18:56.480 --> 18:58.540 you 19:26.480 --> 19:28.540 you 19:56.480 --> 19:58.540 you 20:26.480 --> 20:28.540 you 20:56.480 --> 20:58.540 you 21:26.480 --> 21:28.540 you 21:56.480 --> 21:58.540 you 22:26.480 --> 22:28.540 you 22:56.480 --> 22:58.540 you 23:26.640 --> 23:28.340 you 23:37.680 --> 23:41.040 Would you still be up to talking? 23:41.040 --> 23:56.400 Hi, are you talking to me? 23:56.400 --> 23:57.400 Yeah. 23:57.400 --> 24:12.720 For a minute, I'm going to just go take a walk in a little bit, but I can quickly pause. 24:12.720 --> 24:14.920 Just go ahead. 24:14.920 --> 24:20.780 One thing whenever I've tried setting up any knowledge bases, I've generally thrown them 24:20.780 --> 24:24.500 away after a while, slowly picking up more and more. 24:24.500 --> 24:31.680 Right now, I'm using org room and LogSec. 24:31.680 --> 24:38.340 And one of the features I found in LogSec that I like is you're able to have the link 24:38.340 --> 24:44.520 in such a way where I can make an outline of everything I want to do on a week in one 24:44.520 --> 24:49.640 file and then in the journal view that it will dynamically generate, it will show you 24:49.640 --> 24:55.240 the tasks individually on that day just for that day. 24:55.240 --> 24:57.160 So is there any way? 24:57.160 --> 25:04.720 So it creates kind of a journal based on dated items that it's extracting from multiple other 25:04.720 --> 25:06.320 sources, right? 25:06.320 --> 25:07.320 Yeah. 25:07.320 --> 25:16.840 So it's got a section below it that's from different sources and you can go and do that 25:16.840 --> 25:24.160 and it will just dynamically put it at the bottom, but just for those specific links. 25:24.160 --> 25:32.800 You know, sort of like the idea of transclusion, right, is something that they've addressed 25:32.800 --> 25:37.960 in org mode and we haven't really dealt with that in hyperbole. 25:37.960 --> 25:43.320 So those are areas that we want to get into. 25:43.320 --> 25:51.760 I think there's a lot of work going on in LogSec and Obsidian that I look at when I 25:51.760 --> 25:53.900 have time. 25:53.900 --> 25:58.720 So there's definitely ideas to draw around that. 25:58.720 --> 26:03.920 One of the things we find is there's just covering all across Emacs, there's so much 26:03.920 --> 26:12.880 to do all the time and this being a part-time project, we have to think like RMS does across 26:12.880 --> 26:17.640 years rather than weeks just because of the energy around it. 26:17.640 --> 26:25.280 But you know, the more people can kind of like write a paragraph and say if hyperbole 26:25.280 --> 26:32.040 or some tool could do this, you know, the more likely it is that we'll approach it and 26:32.040 --> 26:33.920 turn it into reality. 26:33.920 --> 26:34.920 Yeah. 26:34.920 --> 26:40.440 Well, like you could probably write some functions that will just dynamically grab information 26:40.440 --> 26:41.440 like that out. 26:41.440 --> 26:49.000 Yeah, well, I mean like you have that with the high roller so you can just make arbitrary 26:49.000 --> 26:56.080 documents and just put stars at the front of each node and the high roller will pull 26:56.080 --> 27:00.000 out anything that you want to match on. 27:00.000 --> 27:05.400 You know, it can be regular expressions, logic expressions with and or not. 27:05.400 --> 27:11.400 So that's already there and it's very simple with the other capabilities to just turn 27:11.400 --> 27:15.600 a search into a button somewhere in your file. 27:15.600 --> 27:23.200 So you basically create your own dynamic views then without any additional mechanism. 27:23.200 --> 27:27.400 But when you want to deal with like the dates and you want to see it, you know, that's a 27:27.400 --> 27:33.840 specific view that we would program for you and provide. 27:33.840 --> 27:40.880 With Not Much and MU4E, the thing I like about Not Much More is you're able to in your search 27:40.880 --> 27:48.640 queries you can use the ands and ors with subject headers or stuff that's only in the 27:48.640 --> 27:56.520 body of the paragraph of the email or who it's to and from and I don't think MU4E has 27:56.520 --> 27:59.120 near that support. 27:59.120 --> 28:07.360 You could use something with org mode and you could do that type of stuff searching 28:07.360 --> 28:12.520 like based off of keywords with, there's a package by Alpha Papa, I can't remember the 28:12.520 --> 28:13.520 name of it. 28:13.520 --> 28:14.520 Org Rifle. 28:14.520 --> 28:15.520 OrgQL. 28:15.520 --> 28:17.960 OrgQL, yeah. 28:17.960 --> 28:23.440 And does like you have anything? 28:23.440 --> 28:31.280 I mean, yeah, it's like, I'm not sure you combine say subject, colon, whatever, your 28:31.280 --> 28:38.520 regular expression and you map that with a logic expression. 28:38.520 --> 28:44.600 So in hyperbole, in high roll though, to do a logic expression, you just do it like a 28:44.600 --> 28:46.080 Lisp expression. 28:46.080 --> 28:49.040 So but you use and or, ex or not. 28:49.040 --> 28:56.920 So you say, you know, open paren, not, and then what you want to not match to, right? 28:56.920 --> 29:02.480 This node doesn't have that in it and you know, a broader expression with an and around 29:02.480 --> 29:07.000 it would say, so it's not this and it's this. 29:07.000 --> 29:11.960 So that all exists the moment you pull up the interface to say, I want to do a string 29:11.960 --> 29:12.960 search. 29:12.960 --> 29:18.080 You can actually embed those logic expressions right in your search there and it'll do them 29:18.080 --> 29:21.820 for you. 29:21.820 --> 29:28.820 That would mostly be regex, right, or is it a different syntax? 29:28.820 --> 29:34.600 It's a different, so you can have regexes embedded in the logic expression, but the 29:34.600 --> 29:44.000 logic itself is done with like the equivalent of, you know, S expressions with and or not 29:44.000 --> 29:45.200 an ex or. 29:45.200 --> 29:57.320 So I could say and bird watch and it would only find outline items that contain the words 29:57.320 --> 29:59.280 bird and watch. 29:59.280 --> 30:06.000 So it's very simple, you know, textual like that, but then bird could be a regex if I, 30:06.000 --> 30:08.500 you know, as well. 30:08.500 --> 30:15.600 So things like that, you have to try it out, I think, you know, to really get a feel for 30:15.600 --> 30:16.600 it. 30:16.600 --> 30:25.080 I've tried it some, I just, it's just a lot harder to, they have so many of these knowledge 30:25.080 --> 30:30.120 base programs that it's hard to make a knowledge base with each one of them and then compare 30:30.120 --> 30:31.120 them. 30:31.120 --> 30:32.120 Oh, I agree. 30:32.120 --> 30:33.120 I mean, that's part of why we built it, right? 30:33.120 --> 30:39.560 I mean, we built this before org existed, so. 30:39.560 --> 30:46.600 You know, I really do want to tie them together, but I agree with Stallman that org, you know, 30:46.600 --> 30:54.540 for scientific research purposes has embedded so many things that people outside that community 30:54.540 --> 30:59.240 don't really need and, you know, it's gotten to a level of complexity, I mean, you look 30:59.240 --> 31:06.080 at the code base that I still kind of, you know, happy to interface with it and use it 31:06.080 --> 31:12.560 and I see a lot of great stuff in there, but I want to be able to have a much simpler format 31:12.560 --> 31:18.160 for when I just have all this unstructured data that I want to deal with. 31:18.160 --> 31:26.760 Yeah, there's definitely a part of org mode that, that unmodularity and all the features 31:26.760 --> 31:39.080 that doesn't feel like Unix-y and the rest of Emacs and I think like org, yeah, just 31:39.080 --> 31:41.800 some of the features, org-id, I can't remember what they are. 31:41.800 --> 31:42.800 It's really the opposite. 31:42.800 --> 31:49.180 It's like, it's coming at it from, you know, that structure process, okay, we're going 31:49.180 --> 31:54.960 to tag everything with, you know, what property it is. 31:54.960 --> 31:59.800 And hyperbole is sort of the opposite to say, well, we have relational databases for when 31:59.800 --> 32:01.520 we're doing that kind of thing. 32:01.520 --> 32:07.360 So this is for your everyday information where, you know, oh, I just grabbed all this off 32:07.360 --> 32:14.440 the web or, you know, I just added in 200 files and now I want to deal with it and kind 32:14.440 --> 32:17.760 of mix it into my Hyperverse. 32:17.760 --> 32:20.640 What kind of capabilities can you give me to do that? 32:20.640 --> 32:25.480 So say like there were 200 documents that somebody handed you and they all have this 32:25.480 --> 32:31.520 cross-reference pattern embedded in it, right, which is a version of hyperlinks, but they're 32:31.520 --> 32:33.100 not actually hyperlinks. 32:33.100 --> 32:40.800 So you just create a couple line button type in hyperbole because all the mechanisms there 32:40.800 --> 32:41.800 already. 32:41.800 --> 32:48.060 And then once you activate that type, all of those documents now have those cross-references 32:48.060 --> 32:50.380 as hyperlinks. 32:50.380 --> 32:56.360 And you solve the problem could be for millions of cross-references with three lines of code. 32:56.360 --> 33:02.040 So that's the kind of leverage that we're looking to get without people having to, you 33:02.040 --> 33:09.440 know, touch the original source format. 33:09.440 --> 33:15.760 That's one of the things your package has tackled was links in the wild, email addresses, 33:15.760 --> 33:22.440 websites that people use and identify with. 33:22.440 --> 33:27.600 And then you got all that behavior without having to learn key bindings like you do in 33:27.600 --> 33:28.600 the org, right? 33:28.600 --> 33:32.360 I mean, you got to know at least like 10 in the org, I think. 33:32.360 --> 33:37.200 And you know, it's really too largely in hyperbole. 33:37.200 --> 33:42.560 So for me, when I'm going along, you know, I just want to mark things, operate on them 33:42.560 --> 33:46.680 and not really think about the command a lot. 33:46.680 --> 33:52.760 And so, of course, we all know many commands in Emacs, but, you know, so I have that the 33:52.760 --> 33:59.760 editing commands, but the knowledge base commands, I don't really need to add on that much more 33:59.760 --> 34:02.080 and I can still be very effective. 34:02.080 --> 34:10.440 Yeah, you dealt with links in the wild while simultaneously advancing the state of the 34:10.440 --> 34:13.520 art with the implicit links. 34:13.520 --> 34:20.160 So like what can you do if you stay within your own system and you control everything? 34:20.160 --> 34:28.960 Yeah, I think that's the, you know, people love implicit buttons, but it sort of takes 34:28.960 --> 34:33.520 a while for it to sink in what you can do with it, right? 34:33.520 --> 34:40.200 Because it is a little difficult to figure out how you create your own type. 34:40.200 --> 34:48.120 But like we have a GitHub, I don't know if you use GitHub, but type built in and, you 34:48.120 --> 34:57.720 know, with very short cross references, it can access issues, commits, projects, linked 34:57.720 --> 35:04.800 to all of their things with just, you know, a few characters in your document. 35:04.800 --> 35:11.720 And so, you know, there's an interface to an entire web ecosystem that's done in one 35:11.720 --> 35:19.560 module and I verbally and, you know, you don't, all you have to do is use it. 35:19.560 --> 35:24.920 Something that could be interesting there is if you had it with next common list web 35:24.920 --> 35:33.000 browser, you click a GitHub issue on the website and it either downloads the source code or 35:33.000 --> 35:39.680 just goes and then the uses maggot or forge to download the issues and then just automatically 35:39.680 --> 35:42.520 opens it up in Emacs for you to look at it there. 35:42.520 --> 35:43.520 That'd be an interesting. 35:43.520 --> 35:44.520 Yeah. 35:44.520 --> 35:52.160 Well, we have that for, so if you just type in any buffer, you put a bug pound sign and 35:52.160 --> 36:00.080 the number and you press your action key on that, that will display that bug number for 36:00.080 --> 36:05.640 Emacs in good news and the dialogue associated with it. 36:05.640 --> 36:15.440 So, you know, we have that similar kind of thing for GitHub, GitLab and so it's, you 36:15.440 --> 36:19.240 know, a lot of people are interested in that because they have Jira or something and they 36:19.240 --> 36:24.840 just want a simple way, you know, to get at their issues in whatever web browser they 36:24.840 --> 36:25.840 use. 36:25.840 --> 36:32.480 And that's very easy to do and one of the most common things programmers do. 36:32.480 --> 36:38.320 You still there? 36:38.320 --> 36:40.320 Yeah. 36:40.320 --> 36:42.320 Okay. 36:42.320 --> 36:45.560 It's just funny. 36:45.560 --> 36:53.760 So yeah, I hope, I guess you've obviously explored hyperbole a little bit, you know, 36:53.760 --> 36:59.760 let us know what the barriers are to, you know, becoming a regular user and we'll work 36:59.760 --> 37:01.480 on this. 37:01.480 --> 37:11.080 One thing I found that I like about the K outline is if you, long form journaling is 37:11.080 --> 37:18.880 if I do that with centering the buffer, making it a little bit bigger, the text a little 37:18.880 --> 37:24.200 bit bigger, I find that I like that more than org mode. 37:24.200 --> 37:28.360 If it's short enough, it doesn't matter, but if it's long enough or my thoughts are complex 37:28.360 --> 37:38.160 enough, not worrying about buffer headings or body paragraph content or anything along 37:38.160 --> 37:43.800 those lines, less presentation helps a lot in that. 37:43.800 --> 37:50.960 The automatic paragraph formatting just makes it work, I type, I'm good to go, it automatically 37:50.960 --> 37:52.360 does everything like that. 37:52.360 --> 37:53.360 Right. 37:53.360 --> 37:58.400 You can just write and you get all, you get all this stuff for free. 37:58.400 --> 38:02.840 That's kind of a lot, you know, that's like I talked about the cognitive overhead. 38:02.840 --> 38:08.640 You know, I think Emacs, people have a lot of trouble understanding why people stick 38:08.640 --> 38:18.120 with Emacs now, but I think it does, the common editing capabilities are very similar to hyperbole, 38:18.120 --> 38:19.120 right? 38:19.120 --> 38:24.560 So you go across all these modes, different applications, but the editing stays the same. 38:24.560 --> 38:32.520 That takes so much off your plate compared to learning new hotkeys for every application. 38:32.520 --> 38:41.560 And so, you know, we're sold and now you want that kind of thing for your writing, for your 38:41.560 --> 38:43.560 knowledge management. 38:43.560 --> 38:50.840 And yeah, I think org is, you know, really, it was built for the scientists, the researchers, 38:50.840 --> 38:51.840 right? 38:51.840 --> 38:54.120 They have to do all that stuff with citations. 38:54.120 --> 38:57.040 I'm never going to use the citation capability, right? 38:57.040 --> 38:59.720 I don't publish much anymore. 38:59.720 --> 39:06.020 So you know, all that work is kind of lost on me, whereas like, you know, better structured 39:06.020 --> 39:12.840 outlining is going to be a win for, you know, a very broad cross section of people. 39:12.840 --> 39:19.400 So I think it's, you know, I wish more people would give it a try, but I think now we're 39:19.400 --> 39:25.760 doing a lot more things that are making hyperbole more accessible to people. 39:25.760 --> 39:31.240 A lot of people, I don't know if we can, like people have asked for a doom interface or 39:31.240 --> 39:32.880 space max interface. 39:32.880 --> 39:40.640 I do notice on Reddit that tons of people seem to use one of those two and they've never 39:40.640 --> 39:45.720 learned Emacs in its core form, right? 39:45.720 --> 39:49.160 They're coming from VI, so they're Vim users or something. 39:49.160 --> 39:55.500 And they, I guess they like all this layering kind of capability, exposing the features. 39:55.500 --> 40:00.560 So I haven't really looked at that, but maybe, you know, if we did that and we don't have 40:00.560 --> 40:08.480 hyperbole on Melpa, so although, you know, some people, they replace Elpa mistakenly 40:08.480 --> 40:12.160 with Melpa, you know, in their config. 40:12.160 --> 40:16.600 And so they never see hyperbole because it's not in their packages. 40:16.600 --> 40:22.920 Like, I didn't know this existed, like, well, don't do that. 40:22.920 --> 40:30.600 One thing that would be nice for stuff like this is having Emacs in it for hyperbole with 40:30.600 --> 40:35.780 a knowledge base and then one with Orgrom and a knowledge base and one with the ZK package 40:35.780 --> 40:39.300 and a knowledge base, et cetera, et cetera. 40:39.300 --> 40:45.740 Is that something you might look at doing a little, you know, sort of like proof of 40:45.740 --> 40:55.240 concept of, and share with us, you know, give us some idea of your thoughts? 40:55.240 --> 41:02.640 I just thought of it while watching this talk, and I might put together some resources of, 41:02.640 --> 41:10.360 there's some other packages that, or ZK, or there's another one of these packages that 41:10.360 --> 41:11.360 has a knowledge base. 41:11.360 --> 41:14.760 I might put together resources like that, see if I see anybody else's. 41:14.760 --> 41:16.880 Yeah, that'd be great. 41:16.880 --> 41:25.400 And do you try to note, do you use a prods denote package? 41:25.400 --> 41:29.600 I haven't messed with that one yet. 41:29.600 --> 41:32.520 I've looked at it. 41:32.520 --> 41:38.900 One contention I see between using all these right here is, like, you have the org FC package 41:38.900 --> 41:44.520 for flashcards, and that would sound really nice for learning new English words that I 41:44.520 --> 41:45.520 ever come across. 41:45.520 --> 41:50.520 I could make that, put the description. 41:50.520 --> 41:54.960 But if I, it seems like you can either use org rom and you're completely tied into the 41:54.960 --> 42:01.240 org rom org system, or you don't do that, then you can't use any of those features where 42:01.240 --> 42:05.800 they treat each of the nodes as a individual system. 42:05.800 --> 42:09.880 I've dabbled with multiple of the systems, so maybe there's a way. 42:09.880 --> 42:10.880 Are you good with org rom? 42:10.880 --> 42:13.920 I've been having this one problem. 42:13.920 --> 42:14.920 It's weird. 42:14.920 --> 42:21.280 I get in this mode where I pointed it somewhere and it worked at one time, and now I repoint 42:21.280 --> 42:26.040 it somewhere, and then I point it back and it won't work anymore. 42:26.040 --> 42:33.620 So I can't get it to sometimes index my set of org files, and it seems like it should 42:33.620 --> 42:43.460 be so basic, but there's something in the sequence of how it caches, I guess, the directory 42:43.460 --> 42:49.520 of org files that maybe I've solved it already, I don't recall, but I was just wondering if 42:49.520 --> 42:53.080 anybody else had that experience. 42:53.080 --> 43:00.000 I've mostly just dabbled in a couple of these systems and then haven't really chosen one 43:00.000 --> 43:02.120 to just use. 43:02.120 --> 43:03.120 Do you program? 43:03.120 --> 43:10.040 Are you by nature a programmer or is it like a hobby? 43:10.040 --> 43:11.040 Hobby. 43:11.040 --> 43:20.440 I haven't done too much on writing my own functions, but Emacs is by far the biggest 43:20.440 --> 43:28.720 or longest program I've ever...longest program, config, whatever, that I've ever used. 43:28.720 --> 43:34.200 And you started on Emacs how long ago? 43:34.200 --> 43:41.760 Five or ten years ago, somewhere along those lines. 43:41.760 --> 43:43.240 Good one. 43:43.240 --> 43:48.160 Yeah, it was nice having Stelman there today, right? 43:48.160 --> 43:56.520 It's like, well, if you want an actual answer, there's something that only he could answer. 43:56.520 --> 44:03.400 I'm surprised how many questions there were on that talk. 44:03.400 --> 44:06.240 What about them? 44:06.240 --> 44:09.840 I was surprised just about how many questions there were on... 44:09.840 --> 44:16.320 Yeah, you hear all this negative stuff about him, but people are very interested in where 44:16.320 --> 44:25.500 stuff came from, why have you never used this package that everybody else uses and things 44:25.500 --> 44:35.640 like that, what his world view is, since it is so different than so many other people's. 44:35.640 --> 44:47.200 All right, well, great talking to you and good luck with your knowledge space research 44:47.200 --> 44:51.200 and yeah, let me know if there's something. 44:51.200 --> 44:57.880 Try out the development version of Hyperbole like I should, that'll get you all the newest 44:57.880 --> 45:02.000 features and we'll get 9.0 out as soon as we can. 45:02.000 --> 45:06.640 Yeah, I use the Borg, so I actually do try out the development already. 45:06.640 --> 45:08.640 Oh, great, super. 45:08.640 --> 45:15.040 Also because sometimes since I'm using the development version of Emacs, it doesn't always... 45:15.040 --> 45:18.560 I've had issues compiling in the past because I needed the newer code. 45:18.560 --> 45:26.760 I think, I can't entirely remember, but thanks for the package and good talking, nice ideas 45:26.760 --> 45:27.760 and talk. 45:27.760 --> 45:28.760 Yeah. 45:28.760 --> 45:29.760 Take care. 45:29.760 --> 45:30.760 Bye. 45:30.760 --> 45:50.120 Bye.