say everyone can say hi to Sasha. Oh, we are recording now. Okay, great. But do say thanks
to Sasha for being everywhere at once trying to make sure that the stream is working properly.
She has the magic touch, yes, definitely.
All right, Vala, sorry to do that. But now the floor is yours. You can take as many questions
as you want. And I'll be making humorous comments when I'm not busy putting out fires in the
background. Okay. All right. Thanks, folks. So thank you for the questions. I'll take one by one.
How do you link the notes together so you could search through them in the future? Okay, this
video I made before, or rather the experience that I shared with you was before I got into
linking of notes and how to make sense of it. I'm still I mean, I'm thankful for guys like Leo for
putting our room together. However, yes, you can take a bow. However, I'm still in the infancy of
trying to link these topics. So the suggestion I have is once you convert your handwritten text
into text, so handwritten stuff from your notebook into text, or if you write it, if you have a
writing device, and you can convert it into text, input it into org rom and link it the way you
would do it. So I have not yet gone into it. But having said that, I've started doing it like a
week ago, I started linking these handwritten notes, which are converted into text, and then
can be linked to any other note that you want. So that's that would be my response to the linking
part. So which actually leads to the next question, is it necessary to OCR your handwriting?
This is a necessary step, you have to do optical character recognition, as in convert all the
handwritten stuff into text, because otherwise, indexing and linking becomes a problem later on.
If it's only you going through the handwritten notes, so that you browse it and read it when
you want it, that's okay. So you don't have to worry about OCR, just input the JPEG, the PNG,
or whatever file you use, format you use, input it into under the org mode headline, or the org
rom file, and you should be good to go. However, if you want the other stuff, then OCR becomes a
necessity. So I'm unfamiliar with any package that does the OCR conversion inside of the Emacs
ecosystem. So I use tools like OneNote, or I think Google Keep does that. I don't know of any other
free slash open source tools which do that. I'm not familiar, but I use an external tool to convert
handwritten text into notes, if you want the link again, read rating, if you want the linking and
the indexing. If not, for me, sometimes screenshots and handwritten notes have to go together,
so that I can find out, okay, this team or this student was talking about his project,
or her project, and this is the screenshot of their presentation, and I write down my notes,
and it goes along with that. That was for me a key to have that together, and not just hand
typewritten notes, because I have no recollection later on, but handwritten notes I seem to recall
better, and that's the whole idea of how to integrate. I was breaking my head over it.
So those are the two responses to those two questions. What about searching notes? Notes
to text while being offline? Oh my god, this is a related one as well. So yes, it is going to be
searching has to be linked. If you want the searching facility, it has to be converted text.
There are no two ways to that right now. Proprietary software like Google Keep seems to
manage it. I think others, OneNote also, Dropbox also says that they can do it. I haven't tried it
there, searching it inside these systems to look for handwritten text, because I don't use that for
managing my projects or making sense of what I've written down. So when it comes to
doing all those tasks, I use Org Mode. So I would say you absolutely mandatory for us to convert
this, unless I've made that appeal at the end of my talk, saying if Org Mode, Emacs, Org Mode
community can put their brains together. I don't know if I can help, but if you want me for
testing your package, I certainly put my hands up for this for sure. I can do that. I'm keen on
trying that out. I hope that answered the third question. These articles on, those articles are
not taking seems interesting. Could you get a link for them? I'll definitely drop it in the Etherpad
after this recording is done for sure. I will leave it there. It is my good friend in France
who shared that with me saying when he saw the title of my talk, he sent me a whole bunch of
articles saying, hey, this seems to support what you told me. And I have sort of shown you the
screenshots in the video, but I'll definitely leave some of these links in the Etherpad after this.
Oh yeah, I've used, the next question is, have you looked at taking handwritten notes on a tablet
like, I don't know how to say that, journal with an X plus plus? So yes, I have started using it
again. The only tools I used were OneNote and Google Keep because those were the only ones
which would allow for writing using my stylus. I'm sure there are other apps which can do it,
but do they convert it into text and how easy is it to input it into org mode is something that,
so for now, the Dropbox method for me was I write notes, I take a mobile camera, take a picture,
upload it to Dropbox. Why Dropbox? Because it allows JPEG to be uploaded. Whereas PDF,
I find it very cumbersome from handwriting to get it in here. So JPEG, I can input it into
org mode, I'm sorry, OneNote and that converts it into text and then I take it and put it into,
the inbox has the image as well as the converted text. So I put it into my system,
the org mode system. So that's how my workflow really is. I don't know if I answered that
question very well. I've used X journal, but not a whole lot to give you intelligent advice.
Have you tried out remarkable device to take handwritten notes as well? I haven't figured out
how to link the files back into org mode in a constructive way yet. Okay, so yes, I've heard
of remarkable devices. There's another one called Books, if I'm not wrong, and Amazon has also come
up with a writing, I call it the writing Kindle. I don't know what it's called, a smarter name for
that. So these devices do exist, but I'm not sure if they convert it into text and if they can put
it in a repository, which is accessible on your computer, where you can import it into org mode.
I'm not so sure about those things. So linking that would be nice if you can have access to
where your Emacs org mode ecosystem is. For me, Dropbox works very well because it's on my mobile
phone, smartphone, as well as on my computer. So the linking happens and I can just push it all
into my org mode inbox and process them and refile the notes or do all the good stuff linking. If I
have the text, I can link them, do all that I can. I can certainly do that. So that's my answer to
the... where did it go? Remarkable stuff. That question is gone. I don't know. Okay, anyway,
so that was... Yeah, I don't see it either anymore. It's disappeared, but thank you for
taking the time to answer it. Okay. So next one. How are we on time, Leo? I can talk all day.
You are completely good on time. Don't worry. We have until 45 at the current hour
until we need to move on to the next box. It's very roomy. Take your time answering as many
questions as you want. Okay. All right. So I won't have either. All right. Something to think about
is handwritten and org transcribed notes, deduplication for searching. Do you want one or
the other? Oh, okay. So this is wishlist. Oh, thank you so much for asking this question. Transcription
for me has become important, not only handwritten, but also voice notes. So this is another thing
that I've been... I have a couple of podcasts where I want a summary of my important points
and I can grab the voice clips, but transcribing it, in spite of so many tools out there,
I find it very difficult to transcribe them automatically. I can make the error corrections
later on, but I find it extremely cumbersome to transcribe voice notes. So it would be nice
if we can have voice transcription, one. Handwritten transcription also helps for sure.
If it can be done, then it makes it... Actually, that's a great idea. Transcription. I wasn't
thinking of inside. I was thinking of basically taking the notes and somehow linking it within
the handwritten stuff itself. Maybe my limitation imagination, but transcription is definitely
something that I would be very interested in. Voice as well as handwriting. I've seen it in
some other software. I think it was OneNote where I saw that you can record yourself vocally and
also there is a transcribe for paid packages. They have transcription as well. And then you
could link text from there on. So if we can do it in our R mode system, nothing like that. I keep
seeing it and notes keep coming up there. I keep writing it on my Wacom device or my remarkable
device and it goes into my R mode as I write and as I speak. Unbelievable. This is important. This
is really important. Thanks for the great idea. I hope this... Again, I volunteer myself to test
this out as well. I have tons of... At least this year, I have produced 300 minutes of podcast
content and I find it extremely cumbersome to transcribe it easily. So if this can do it for us,
at least even a minute or two of the text, nothing like it. That's amazing. The last question I see
is how often do you instead type in and summarize your notes? Would you consider that a suitable
approach for yourself at the end of the day? That's a good idea of typing notes. When I'm in
a hurry, I type. So when I'm in a tearing hurry or my notes is just lying somewhere and there's
a meeting going on, I don't want to get up and go get my notes, I immediately go to my R mode and
start typing there. So that's what I do. At the end of the day, I don't have that habit at all.
I promised myself that I should do daily journaling and all that because it's... Everybody
says it's a good habit. I've done it a few times and I found it to be good, but it's not a habit
I'm yet on. So I mean, I also have a shortcut, a keyboard shortcut for the org-grown dailies.
I do have that and it shows up on the calendar, the blue color. I love those features,
but I'm not on it. I should make it a habit. As much as I look at my org agenda,
you should have dailies as well. I type out when I'm in a hurry. Perhaps even writing
your daily journal could be helpful. Particularly, I find that I'm comfortable typing English
letters. If non-English, for example, my mother tongue has a different script, which I can't
easily type using English. So perhaps writing is easier there for me rather than typing it out.
It feels very weird. So perhaps that could help for non-English, non-Roman script. Perhaps
writing is better for journaling as well. I guess that could help.
Okay, Bala, if I can interrupt you for a second because don't worry, I'm not stopping you with
the questions. I told you you have until 45 and I will honor what I said before. But I just wanted
to let people know that we have opened up the BBB chat room. So if people want to join the room now
and ask questions directly to Bala, who has already answered many of your questions on the
pad, but if you have more questions or if you'd just like to chat with Bala, well, do feel free to
join the room. The link has been pasted on the ISE channels. It's also available on the talk page at
the top. So you should be able to find the link pretty easily. And even if we move to the next
talk, if you're still there and still want to chat with Bala, provided Bala is available and does not
need to sleep, by the way, with respect to the fact that it's really late over there, do feel free to
hang around a little more and ask more questions and we'll be posting all of this on the website
afterwards. So Bala, I think, do you have one more question on the pad or was it the last one?
Let me check. I think that was the last one. Oh, there is a new question coming up just before that.
Do take it then. Sure. I was going to say something of an experience I wanted to share,
but anyway, I can answer this. How fancy has your handwritten notes import been?
Okay, I'm going to wait for this. I'm not sure if we're talking about importing the notes into,
like, is it merely importing the files or is it about importing it to your note-taking system,
like, or whatnot? Okay, okay, okay. I get it. I get it. So I have a simple system for, yes,
I absolutely agree with you. I mean, the birth of org-mode was that you wanted notes and you wanted
tasks inside it, right? So that was the origin of that. So I think the same philosophy applies for
handwritten notes as well because you're writing down notes and somebody says, hey Bala, can you
send me this document by next Wednesday? And I write that down in my notes and then I send it
and I write that down in my notes and that's a task. So I just put a star next to it. So I know
when I am scanning, I don't think that shows up as a, I don't think star shows up as anything in my
import, but I know when I'm scanning it that I need to keep track of that as a task. So in the
talk about it is in OneNote, control-1 is the shortcut for ToDo and if it is converted into
text, yes, of course, alt-enter in org-mode will work as well. So yes, so I think that is important
even, so that's the only thing that I do is an asterisk or a star just before the note so that
it tells me that it is a task that I have to keep track of. I even put a date so that the
numbers also get imported into org-mode. But my wish list, this has gotten me into me wishing is
if the handwriting notes, I mean the gadget, the device, the remarkable or the Amazon
writing pads of the world, if we can actually write down notes with a star, an asterisk,
and the headline and scheduled and all that and import it directly into org-mode, I think
that's doing away with a whole bunch of in-between scanning, uploading, processing, and all that. This
can go directly, you can start refiling into your system. So that would be nice. So somebody
is asking me for a wish list, here's one more too, if we can do that. So that makes basically
a writing org-mode rather than like as if it's a language, like a human language, rather than it
being something restricted to a computer. So that's interesting. That's an interesting thought.
Just to glorify handwriting, I don't know if it has anything to do with the questions. A few days
ago, a client of mine asked me for a talk and I was going to give them the plain vanilla talk,
but I decided to pause myself and write down what I was going to talk about. Actually that gave
rise to a completely different idea and the whole thing was far more effective compared to what was
my plain vanilla. According to me, that handwritten ideation that I did with a white space really
helped me think beyond what was my plain vanilla talk. Of course, the talk went well, I think,
and the audience did have fun because I even jotted down a few things that I wanted to crack
jokes on. All that went into my notes. So I think handwriting is sort of under-marketed,
underplayed so much with the advent of typing and these things becoming so efficient and easy
that I think that all your ideas, if they come together, I think handwritten notes will become
part and parcel of the org-mode system itself and an effective and efficient way of capturing our
thoughts. All right, Bala. So I think you don't have any more questions currently. I don't see
anyone with a microphone on. So by the way, if you're joining us on BBB and if you want to ask
your questions, you do have to join with a microphone. It is interesting for you to join
listening only, but if everyone does this and nobody turns on the microphone, it's going to be
very lonely for Bala and myself. I can ask questions for you. I have plenty of questions
that I'd love to ask. I did get my own tablet. Oh, actually, let me show the stream. Let me...
Oops. Can I un-full screen this? Yes. Okay. Let me try to make the screen a little bigger so that
you can see me. Okay. I was going to talk to you about, if we have a little more time, because I do
have a tablet like this, which allows me to do handwritten notes. This is... Don't worry too much.
This is a lead code exit slide that I was solving. And this is Yink, which allows me to type my
stuff. And I bought this about two years ago. And I've really been struggling to find ways to...
How do I work both in the Emacs and how do I work with my NVDA notes, which is why I was really
interested with your talk, because honestly, right now, those are two completely separate
collections of notes. What is in my machine, this device right there, is its own thing.
It has its own quality. Do I do my journaling in it? I do my journaling, maybe. I also do my lead
code exercise. But that's about it. And I wish it were easy for me to connect the dots between
what I've got on this device and what I've got on my computer right in front of me. So I can talk
some more about this, but people could also join and ask their own questions. I can talk to Bala
whenever I want. I've been in touch with Bala for quite a while. And I'll be able to do this
whenever. But this is your chance for you to do this, to have your question answered,
and for the question to leave on EmacsConf forever and ever. All the talks for EmacsConf,
all the questions since three years ago have been published. So it is your chance to,
if you're not making a talk of your own, at least you have the questions of your own leaving on
a website. So Bala, I believe you were a little interested with my little device. Do you actually
have a device of your own that allows you to take notes like this? Or is it just written on paper?
My computer is a touchscreen, so I can write. I have a stylus that I can use to write anywhere
on the screen. So I take the laptop and actually fold it, and I can use it like a notebook. So this
is my use case these days. So when I'm learning, I'm learning Japanese, by the way. And I tell you,
there's no way I could have retained so much if I had not written Japanese out, the characters. So
this is critical. Writing is critical. And their ideas, when they're externalized,
you see it while you're writing it, there's a physical action, you feel the proximity to your
ideas, what you're doing. So typing, yes, it is also physical. But for me, it's one step away from
writing down. For me, that's going to make you laugh. I was also studying Japanese and I do have
my own kanji that allows me to do my practice. So please don't look at it. If you're going to pause
this video and check what I've written, you will be sorely disappointed because those are just
collection of verbs. But this is how I practice my kanji as well. And it's been amazing. This is,
you know, it is such a wonderful usage, because if you try learning kanji,
just by seeing them and not putting them in your hand or embedding them in your hands,
it's so complicated to do so. Oh, we have more things in common than I imagined. Okay.
Yeah. So we happen to have someone in the room currently. Jack, I believe, is their nickname.
Do you have a question? And do you want to maybe unmute yourself to ask the question?
You are more than welcome to do so now. I might actually need to unmute you. Actually,
I can't. Can you unmute yourself and ask the question if you want to?
I'm just trying to get my headset set up. I'm having the similar struggle with this issue of
handwriting my notes because that's the easiest way for me to write them quickly. It's also very,
it does help me retain the information better. But then getting them back into org mode. I'm
about to start experimenting with some of the iPad apps like Notability and GoodNotes to see
if that can work or if I can use Apple Notes for that as well. My interests are probably similar
to yours. I'm studying computer science, and I have two kinds of notes that are very difficult to
transcribe. Mind maps, which is often the way I take class notes because it's a good outlining
form. But the handwriting recognition blows if you're part of the expression. And equations,
particularly involving proof steps for formal semantics. And I'm wondering if you have any ideas
about mind mapping in particular and getting those incorporated from handwritten notes. I hate using
the mind mapping tools that are available. I find that that replaces the bad methods that
I use. It replaces the bad memory generation from typing with a bad memory generation for mind
mapping. But if you have any thoughts, I'd love to hear them. Actually, I have used mind mapping
tools. I use something called function maps, where you not only have interlinking relationships,
this also has what is the relationship, what is the nature of relationships. All that I've been
drawing it on my laptop screen. So that helps me internalize that. So I do not convert it into
any other digital format. I leave it as a picture because every time I read it, but in the digital
format itself, when you have new understanding, you can actually add another object and interlink
them and add the relationship. So it's a lot easier if it's on this. But on a piece of paper,
drawing a mind map and or function map and editing it and moving things around becomes a problem.
So I find that doing it on a device and retaining it as such, not converting it into a free mind or
any of those kind of XML or anything like that, doesn't help me at all, or a plan TML even. But
I find that I leave it as such in the digital format. You can select it, like a lasso select,
move it around and add new objects or remove it or shade it. You can do all those good stuff,
if it is remaining in the same way. So I like it to be that way. Yeah, I've done that as well
on the iPad. I'll use Nebo or something like that to give me a good way of rearranging the mind map
directly in the iPad, exporting it as a JPEG and linking it to other notes documents that I have.
But I do wish I had a better way of extracting the keywords that come out of it and having
those searchable. But I get it. Okay, the answer is no, I don't have any. I usually link the live
document itself into org mode. So for example, OneNote. OneNote colon and the entire... I just
click on that and it goes, opens the exact document that I want and I can add more to it.
I do something very simple.
All right, folks, I'm really sorry for interrupting you, but we are getting close to time.
Thank you so much for joining. We have four people on the scene right now, which is amazing.
You can continue talking about this and people can still tune in. The link to the BBB room
is still available on Bala's talk. You go to EmacsConf 2022, you go to the talk of Bala and
you'll find the link at the top of the page. You can come in the room and chat with Bala some more.
But for us on the stream, we're going to move on to the next talk in about 40 seconds.
So Bala, thank you so much for taking all the time answering all the questions. And thank you,
Gag, also for coming and asking also lovely questions. I suppose it was really good.
Yeah, thank you. It was great seeing you. Sorry, I'm rushing because I'm being pressed for time.
And I will see you both whenever I see you. OK, bye bye everyone.
See you. Bye bye, Leo. Take care.
Actually, I'm not sure. We are probably getting the next talk started currently,
so you can probably still hear me on the stream, but it's going to take about
three seconds. I'll see you after.
OK, we are now off air. Thank you so much, Bala, for taking the time to answer all the questions.
Thank you. Ciao.
Yeah, I think no one is left in a BBB room, so I think people are probably not going to show up.
So you've earned your well, your rest for tonight.
OK, thanks.
Mine will not come before a long time. I still have about seven hours to stream.
Oh, my God. OK.
All right. Well, thank you so much, Bala. See you next time.
Thanks. Have a good day and I'll catch you soon. OK.
Sure. Bye bye.
Bye bye.
Bye.