WEBVTT 00:01.280 --> 00:02.800 Hi everyone! I'm very excited 00:02.800 --> 00:05.200 to be here at EmacsConf 2021 today 00:05.200 --> 00:06.640 to give my talk called 00:06.640 --> 00:09.360 "M-x Forever: How Emacs Will Outlast 00:09.360 --> 00:11.519 Text Editor Trends." 00:11.519 --> 00:13.759 So let's start with the conclusion first. 00:13.759 --> 00:15.040 I know, it's a little bit unorthodox, 00:15.040 --> 00:16.960 but let's just try and see what happens. 00:16.960 --> 00:18.400 So no matter what happens 00:18.400 --> 00:19.760 in the wider software world, 00:19.760 --> 00:21.520 GNU Emacs will continue to be 00:21.520 --> 00:22.640 a beloved program 00:22.640 --> 00:24.080 with a dedicated community 00:24.080 --> 00:25.199 and a healthy team 00:25.199 --> 00:00:28.079 of maintainers and contributors. 00:28.080 --> 00:29.439 You're probably wondering 00:29.439 --> 00:31.141 who am I to be making such a claim, 00:31.141 --> 00:32.640 so I'll tell you. 00:32.640 --> 00:34.640 I am David Wilson, the creator of the 00:34.640 --> 00:36.000 System Crafters YouTube channel 00:36.000 --> 00:38.079 and community. If you want to see 00:38.079 --> 00:39.040 a lot of really great videos 00:39.040 --> 00:41.280 about GNU Emacs, GNU Guix, etc., 00:41.280 --> 00:42.719 come check out my YouTube channel. 00:42.719 --> 00:44.480 I'm also on LBRY and Odysee 00:44.480 --> 00:46.399 if you don't want to go use YouTubea 00:46.399 --> 00:47.360 And also, if you're the type of person 00:47.360 --> 00:48.399 who doesn't want to use 00:48.399 --> 00:49.680 any of these websites 00:49.680 --> 00:51.039 and you want to see my videos anyway, 00:51.039 --> 00:52.160 please just send me an email 00:52.160 --> 00:53.280 at the email address below 00:53.280 --> 00:54.079 and I'll see if I can set you up 00:54.079 --> 00:55.520 with that. You can also check out 00:55.520 --> 00:58.160 my website and the places where we chat, 00:58.160 --> 00:59.440 especially on libera.chat 00:59.440 --> 01:01.440 at the #systemcrafters channel. 01:01.440 --> 01:02.719 If you have any thoughts 01:02.719 --> 01:03.600 after seeing this talk, 01:03.600 --> 01:04.799 please feel free to send me an email 01:04.799 --> 00:01:07.199 or find me on chat. 01:07.200 --> 01:09.920 So there is a recurring concern 01:09.920 --> 01:11.119 in the Emacs community 01:11.119 --> 01:12.799 about its popularity. 01:12.799 --> 01:14.320 This is something that keeps coming back 01:14.320 --> 01:16.479 time and time again. You probably see it 01:16.479 --> 01:18.640 every year or two where people on Reddit 01:18.640 --> 01:19.840 or maybe on the emacs-devel 01:19.840 --> 01:21.600 mailing list are talking about ways 01:21.600 --> 01:24.000 to increase Emacs popularity. 01:24.000 --> 01:25.600 More recently, there was a discussion 01:25.600 --> 01:27.600 on Hacker News where somebody posted 01:27.600 --> 01:28.159 a link to this 01:28.159 --> 01:31.360 Making Emacs Popular Again blog post 01:31.360 --> 01:32.479 which does chronicle some of the 01:32.479 --> 01:34.479 more recent discussions on emacs-devel 01:34.479 --> 01:35.840 about things that could be done 01:35.840 --> 01:38.479 to make Emacs a more popular editor. 01:38.479 --> 01:40.079 So the title of my talk claims 01:40.079 --> 01:41.280 that Emacs is going to 01:41.280 --> 01:43.759 outlast text editor trends. 01:43.759 --> 01:45.840 So to elaborate on this claim, 01:45.840 --> 01:46.799 we're going to try to answer 01:46.799 --> 01:48.720 a few specific questions. 01:48.720 --> 01:51.200 First of all, what is popularity 01:51.200 --> 01:53.280 and how do you even measure it? 01:53.280 --> 01:54.240 If people are saying 01:54.240 --> 01:55.920 that Emacs needs to be more popular, 01:55.920 --> 01:57.040 then what do we really mean 01:57.040 --> 01:59.040 by popularity? 01:59.040 --> 02:00.159 Also, what are the benefits 02:00.159 --> 02:01.920 of popularity? If emacs did somehow 02:01.920 --> 02:03.920 become more popular, what benefits 02:03.920 --> 02:05.680 would it receive from that? 02:05.680 --> 02:07.439 And also, how does an editor 02:07.439 --> 02:08.720 lose popularity, and what are 02:08.720 --> 02:11.120 the possible consequences to that? 02:11.120 --> 02:12.480 And then what are the unique factors 02:12.480 --> 02:13.680 about Emacs that will ensure 02:13.680 --> 02:16.000 that it survives long term? 02:16.000 --> 02:17.520 What is special about Emacs 02:17.520 --> 02:19.440 that will help it to thrive 02:19.440 --> 02:21.920 despite whatever happens in the 02:21.920 --> 02:24.560 popular sphere of text editors and 02:24.560 --> 00:02:26.958 programming languages, etc.? 02:26.959 --> 02:28.800 So, first of all, what does popularity 02:28.800 --> 02:30.720 really mean? When someone says 02:30.720 --> 02:32.400 that Emacs needs to become more popular, 02:32.400 --> 02:33.680 what are they really saying 02:33.680 --> 02:35.840 is that there needs to be more users, 02:35.840 --> 02:37.102 and that they stick around. 02:37.102 --> 02:38.800 Like, they learn how to use Emacs 02:38.800 --> 02:41.680 and they continue to be users. 02:41.680 --> 02:42.800 If we did get those new users, 02:42.800 --> 02:45.599 what would it actually do for Emacs? 02:45.599 --> 02:47.440 Also, is it that there are 02:47.440 --> 02:48.959 more community members that are 02:48.959 --> 02:51.040 creating new packages? 02:51.040 --> 02:52.480 You know, that sort of assumes 02:52.480 --> 02:53.519 that the editor itself 02:53.519 --> 02:54.720 doesn't have enough packages, 02:54.720 --> 02:55.519 or that the only way 02:55.519 --> 02:57.120 that the an editor stays alive 02:57.120 --> 02:58.800 is for there to be constant churn, 02:58.800 --> 03:01.440 with new packages coming around. 03:01.440 --> 03:03.120 Is it that there is more content 03:03.120 --> 03:04.319 being created by users, 03:04.319 --> 03:05.840 like more blog posts being written, 03:05.840 --> 03:07.920 more YouTube videos being made, 03:07.920 --> 03:09.360 more other ways that people are 03:09.360 --> 03:11.599 evangelizing the use of Emacs 03:11.599 --> 03:14.720 and also teaching people how to use it? 03:14.720 --> 03:16.080 Also, is it that 03:16.080 --> 03:18.720 more long-term stability is had 03:18.720 --> 03:20.159 in the editor, and more core 03:20.159 --> 03:21.280 improvements that are being made 03:21.280 --> 03:22.879 over time? I mean, I guess you could say 03:22.879 --> 03:23.760 that it does make sense 03:23.760 --> 03:25.680 that if the editor is more popular, 03:25.680 --> 03:26.959 then people will be more invested 03:26.959 --> 03:28.080 in improving it, and there will be 03:28.080 --> 03:30.000 more new contributors coming in, 03:30.000 --> 03:32.480 but is greater and greater popularity 03:32.480 --> 03:33.280 really what's needed 03:33.280 --> 03:35.280 to ensure that this happens? 03:35.280 --> 03:37.040 Also, it could just be that 03:37.040 --> 03:38.080 there's more validation 03:38.080 --> 03:40.480 for someone's personal choices. 03:40.480 --> 03:42.159 You know, people tend to use 03:42.159 --> 03:43.760 these software choices they use 03:43.760 --> 03:44.799 as part of their identity. 03:44.799 --> 03:46.000 So is it that they want Emacs 03:46.000 --> 03:46.799 to be more popular 03:46.799 --> 03:48.319 so that they can finally say, 03:48.319 --> 03:49.440 "I'm an Emacs user," 03:49.440 --> 03:50.080 and have people think 03:50.080 --> 03:51.840 that they're cool or "hip" or whatever? 03:51.840 --> 03:52.720 I hope that... Hopefully, 03:52.720 --> 03:53.370 that's not the case. 03:53.370 --> 03:54.239 Hopefully, it's one of these 03:54.239 --> 03:56.000 other points. But it could be something 03:56.000 --> 03:57.120 because, as we see, you know, 03:57.120 --> 03:59.439 there's a lot of trends and fashion 03:59.439 --> 04:00.879 when it comes to software development 04:00.879 --> 04:02.640 and also free software 04:02.640 --> 04:04.159 and open source tools. 04:04.159 --> 04:05.840 So as we go through this talk, 04:05.840 --> 04:07.200 keep these questions in mind 04:07.200 --> 04:07.760 as we talk about 04:07.760 --> 04:09.680 some of the finer points on all of this, 04:09.680 --> 04:11.280 and see whether you think 04:11.280 --> 04:13.680 that popularity really correlates 04:13.680 --> 00:04:15.679 with these things. 04:15.680 --> 04:17.919 So first of all, how do we measure 04:17.919 --> 04:20.720 popularity? What information do we have 04:20.720 --> 04:21.600 to actually determine 04:21.600 --> 04:23.360 which editors are popular, 04:23.360 --> 04:25.199 and whether they're gaining or losing 04:25.199 --> 04:26.880 popularity? So I've got a few, 04:26.880 --> 04:27.759 or a couple places here 04:27.759 --> 04:29.120 that we can look at 04:29.120 --> 04:30.560 to judge the popularity 04:30.560 --> 00:04:32.399 of various editors. 04:32.400 --> 04:33.840 First of all, Google Trends. 04:33.840 --> 04:35.199 Google actually gives us the ability 04:35.199 --> 04:37.199 to track and compare search volume 04:37.199 --> 04:39.040 for particular terms and topics 04:39.040 --> 04:41.759 over time. So if you wanted to know 04:41.759 --> 04:43.040 how often someone was searching 04:43.040 --> 04:44.800 about Emacs, maybe to try to find help 04:44.800 --> 04:46.479 for something, or look for documentation, 04:46.479 --> 04:48.800 or maybe look for blog posts, etc., 04:48.800 --> 04:49.919 you can look at Google Trends 04:49.919 --> 04:51.600 to see how often people are searching 04:51.600 --> 04:53.440 for Emacs over time. 04:53.440 --> 04:55.199 One useful ability is that we can 04:55.199 --> 04:57.360 compare how much people are searching 04:57.360 --> 04:58.720 across various different topics 04:58.720 --> 05:00.000 and see a graph, which is 05:00.000 --> 05:01.680 what i'm going to show you right now. 05:01.680 --> 05:04.000 This graph shows you the search volume 05:04.000 --> 05:06.320 for Emacs compared to Vim, Atom, 05:06.320 --> 05:08.800 Sublime Text, and Visual Studio Code 05:08.800 --> 05:11.120 from 2004 to the present 05:11.120 --> 05:12.880 worldwide, so all across the world 05:12.880 --> 05:14.479 where searches are happening. 05:14.479 --> 05:16.240 You can see that in 2004, 05:16.240 --> 05:18.479 Emacs is the reigning king supreme 05:18.479 --> 05:21.039 where you have the most search terms 05:21.039 --> 05:22.720 or searches happening on emacs 05:22.720 --> 05:25.199 at that time. Also, Vim is quite high 05:25.199 --> 05:26.960 on this list as well. 05:26.960 --> 05:28.560 Let's see. Sublime Text is a bit lower 05:28.560 --> 05:31.120 in the list, but it's in third place. 05:31.120 --> 05:32.080 Nope. Yep. That's right. 05:32.080 --> 05:34.880 Then atom is quite low, but I think that 05:34.880 --> 05:36.320 Atom didn't exist yet, 05:36.320 --> 05:37.759 so maybe at that point, you know, 05:37.759 --> 05:39.120 this is probably something else. 05:39.120 --> 05:41.360 Google is just getting random data. 05:41.360 --> 05:42.880 And then Visual Studio Code 05:42.880 --> 05:43.919 also didn't exist, 05:43.919 --> 05:45.039 so probably this is like 05:45.039 --> 05:46.479 Visual Studio searches, 05:46.479 --> 05:48.000 but then as you go across the years, 05:48.000 --> 05:48.960 you see that gradually, 05:48.960 --> 05:52.160 Emacs popularity appears to be declining. 05:52.160 --> 05:54.639 As does Vim, but not quite so much. 05:54.639 --> 05:56.560 And then over time, Sublime Text 05:56.560 --> 05:57.520 becomes more popular, 05:57.520 --> 05:59.280 and then VS Code in more recent years 05:59.280 --> 06:00.319 becomes very popular 06:00.319 --> 06:02.400 compared to everything else. 06:02.400 --> 06:04.479 So it looks like Emacs 06:04.479 --> 06:06.960 has declined significantly in popularity, 06:06.960 --> 06:09.600 while the other editors have taken over. 06:09.600 --> 06:11.360 But is the search volume really 06:11.360 --> 06:12.800 the only important factor 06:12.800 --> 06:14.800 that indicates popularity or health 06:14.800 --> 06:16.080 of a given editor? 06:16.080 --> 00:06:18.318 That still remains to be seen. 06:18.319 --> 06:19.680 We can also take a look 06:19.680 --> 06:22.400 at the yearly survey 06:22.400 --> 06:24.602 that the website Stack Overflow puts out 06:24.602 --> 06:26.533 asking developers about the tools 06:26.533 --> 06:27.360 that they use to find out 06:27.360 --> 06:28.720 which ones are being used 06:28.720 --> 06:29.759 most frequently and that are 06:29.759 --> 06:31.919 gaining popularity over time. 06:31.919 --> 06:33.680 So there is a great blog post 06:33.680 --> 06:35.039 by someone named Roben Kleene, 06:35.039 --> 06:37.039 who synthesizes some 06:37.039 --> 06:37.840 of this data together, 06:37.840 --> 06:39.120 specifically about editors, 06:39.120 --> 06:40.240 and provides us with a graph 06:40.240 --> 06:41.680 that we can take a look at 06:41.680 --> 06:43.440 that compares the popularity 06:43.440 --> 06:44.639 of particular editors 06:44.639 --> 06:46.560 in the last maybe four or five years, 06:46.560 --> 06:49.199 at least 2015 to 2019, 06:49.199 --> 06:50.560 based on the responses 06:50.560 --> 06:52.560 to the Stack Overflow survey. 06:52.560 --> 06:54.479 In this case we see that 06:54.479 --> 06:56.560 Emacs is the light blue line, 06:56.560 --> 06:59.440 and it sort of stays in maybe, let's see, 06:59.440 --> 07:00.960 maybe third place in the beginning, 07:00.960 --> 07:02.000 and then fifth place, 07:02.000 --> 07:03.520 and basically just stays in fifth place 07:03.520 --> 07:05.039 the whole time, compared to things like 07:05.039 --> 07:07.120 Atom, Sublime Text, and VS Code. 07:07.120 --> 07:08.560 As we saw before, the VS Code 07:08.560 --> 07:10.960 just sort of ramps up at the end. 07:10.960 --> 07:13.199 Now, this is another thing 07:13.199 --> 07:14.560 that basically is showing us 07:14.560 --> 07:17.039 similarly to the Google Trends 07:17.039 --> 07:19.280 that Emacs's popularity is not quite 07:19.280 --> 07:21.840 as much as other editors out there. 07:21.840 --> 07:23.840 You can also look at the 2021 results 07:23.840 --> 07:26.160 of the Stack Overflow survey, 07:26.160 --> 07:27.199 which I'll show you now, 07:27.199 --> 07:30.319 which shows Emacs in 16th place. 07:30.319 --> 07:31.680 Let's see. If we look here, 07:31.680 --> 07:32.960 we see Visual Studio Code 07:32.960 --> 07:34.400 is the most popular, then we have 07:34.400 --> 07:36.800 a whole bunch of other well-known editors. 07:36.800 --> 07:37.840 Some are kind of surprising, 07:37.840 --> 07:40.400 like Notepad++ is quite high up there, 07:40.400 --> 07:42.080 but then we have Emacs here 07:42.080 --> 07:43.199 coming right in behind 07:43.199 --> 07:44.879 PhpStorm and NetBeans, 07:44.879 --> 07:46.400 which is pretty funny to me. 07:46.400 --> 07:48.879 But it just goes to show you 07:48.879 --> 07:54.000 that the Emacs community is smaller 07:54.000 --> 07:55.599 than what you might consider 07:55.599 --> 07:56.960 for other editors, or at least 07:56.960 --> 07:58.800 the Emacs user base, maybe. 07:58.800 --> 07:59.440 Maybe it's just the people 07:59.440 --> 08:00.800 who actually respond to the survey. 08:00.800 --> 08:02.080 You can't really tell for sure 08:02.080 --> 08:03.759 because all this data is coming from 08:03.759 --> 08:05.039 a self-selected group of people 08:05.039 --> 08:06.720 who have responded to the survey. 08:06.720 --> 08:08.879 So I think what... Basically, 08:08.879 --> 08:10.560 what I'm trying to say is that 08:10.560 --> 08:12.080 if you look at all these things, 08:12.080 --> 08:14.080 you would probably get the perception 08:14.080 --> 08:15.919 that Emacs is dead 08:15.919 --> 08:17.199 and that maybe nobody really 08:17.199 --> 08:18.240 uses the editor anymore, 08:18.240 --> 00:08:19.999 or that it's on its way out. 08:20.000 --> 08:21.599 However, I think there's another way 08:21.599 --> 08:24.879 to look at the health or popularity 08:24.879 --> 08:27.280 of Emacs (or any other editor, really), 08:27.280 --> 08:28.240 and that is to judge 08:28.240 --> 08:29.520 the popularity and health 08:29.520 --> 08:30.240 by taking a look 08:30.240 --> 08:32.080 at the community activity 08:32.080 --> 08:33.680 in places such as Reddit, 08:33.680 --> 08:35.760 or maybe on Discord servers, 08:35.760 --> 08:38.880 Slack servers, IRC channels, 08:38.880 --> 08:40.000 mailing lists, particularly 08:40.000 --> 08:41.120 on emacs-devel, 08:41.120 --> 08:42.640 where all of the conversation 08:42.640 --> 08:45.120 about the development of Emacs happens. 08:45.120 --> 08:46.640 Blogs. There's quite a lot of people 08:46.640 --> 08:47.519 in the Emacs community 08:47.519 --> 08:48.959 writing blog posts. 08:48.959 --> 08:50.640 There's quite a few YouTube channels now 08:50.640 --> 08:52.399 making content about Emacs 08:52.399 --> 08:53.839 pretty frequently, and then 08:53.839 --> 08:56.880 conferences like this one, EmacsConf. 08:56.880 --> 08:58.399 If you've spent any time 08:58.399 --> 08:59.600 in any of these places recently, 08:59.600 --> 09:00.640 did you actually get the sense 09:00.640 --> 09:03.440 that Emacs community lacks activity? 09:03.440 --> 09:04.800 I personally don't. 09:04.800 --> 09:06.560 I see quite a lot of activity on Reddit, 09:06.560 --> 09:07.360 I see a lot of activity 09:07.360 --> 09:08.320 in various other places, 09:08.320 --> 09:11.040 even my own chats that I've created. 09:11.040 --> 09:12.480 Lots of people talking about Emacs 09:12.480 --> 09:16.320 every day. But this is harder to measure, 09:16.320 --> 09:18.160 because you would have to go count 09:18.160 --> 09:21.279 all of the mailing list emails 09:21.279 --> 09:22.560 compared to other editors, 09:22.560 --> 09:23.760 or maybe like the Reddit posts 09:23.760 --> 09:24.959 compared to other editors. 09:24.959 --> 09:26.880 We could do that, but really, 09:26.880 --> 09:27.839 the more important thing 09:27.839 --> 09:29.920 is to just go experience the community 09:29.920 --> 09:31.279 by going to one of these places 09:31.279 --> 09:33.360 and take a look at what's going on. 09:33.360 --> 09:34.560 You can get a really good sense of that 09:34.560 --> 09:37.760 by checking out Sacha Chua's Emacs News 09:37.760 --> 09:39.120 roll-up blog posts 09:39.120 --> 09:40.399 that come out every week. 09:40.399 --> 09:42.000 It's a very good distillation of things 09:42.000 --> 09:42.560 that are happening 09:42.560 --> 09:43.920 in the Emacs community. 09:43.920 --> 09:48.080 If you look at those things 09:48.080 --> 09:49.040 and look at all that, 09:49.040 --> 09:50.640 you can tell that there is actually 09:50.640 --> 09:51.360 something happening 09:51.360 --> 09:52.240 in the Emacs community 09:52.240 --> 09:54.000 that is more than what you see 09:54.000 --> 09:55.680 in the numbers on Google Trends 09:55.680 --> 09:58.080 and on Stack Overflow. 09:58.080 --> 09:59.200 Another interesting point 09:59.200 --> 10:00.480 that doesn't really fit into all this, 10:00.480 --> 10:01.440 but if you want to look 10:01.440 --> 10:02.640 at the actual data 10:02.640 --> 10:03.920 from the Emacs community 10:03.920 --> 10:06.160 about how the community uses Emacs, 10:06.160 --> 10:06.880 check out the results 10:06.880 --> 10:08.480 of the 2020 Emacs survey. 10:08.480 --> 10:09.040 I'm sure there's going to be 10:09.040 --> 10:11.760 another Emacs survey at some point soon, 10:11.760 --> 10:13.120 as well, but that will give you 10:13.120 --> 10:14.480 some insight into what's happening 10:14.480 --> 10:16.000 within the community itself. 10:16.000 --> 10:16.399 You can see that 10:16.399 --> 10:17.600 there's quite a lot of activity 10:17.600 --> 10:19.839 and a lot of different use cases for Emacs 10:19.839 --> 00:10:23.199 and types of people who are using Emacs. 10:23.200 --> 10:24.000 Let's talk about 10:24.000 --> 10:26.079 how editors lose popularity. 10:26.079 --> 10:26.880 So people are worried 10:26.880 --> 10:29.360 that Emacs is going to lose popularity. 10:29.360 --> 10:31.440 What do they worry is going to happen 10:31.440 --> 10:34.000 if that happens? 10:37.040 --> 00:10:38.319 Or how actually could it happen? 10:38.320 --> 10:39.680 So maybe a new editor 10:39.680 --> 10:41.839 with better features appears. 10:41.839 --> 10:43.440 So one theory for why users 10:43.440 --> 10:45.920 left TextMate for Sublime Text... 10:45.920 --> 10:46.880 If you don't know about TextMate, 10:46.880 --> 10:49.600 it was a very popular editor on macOS 10:49.600 --> 10:52.160 back probably in the Ruby on Rails craze 10:52.160 --> 10:54.079 time frame, maybe like the mid-2000s, 10:54.079 --> 10:57.200 2005 or so. Then eventually Sublime Text 10:57.200 --> 10:59.519 came along, and it had 10:59.519 --> 11:01.360 a better extensibility API 11:01.360 --> 11:03.200 and really good performance. 11:03.200 --> 11:05.200 It also was able to use 11:05.200 --> 11:07.040 some of the same stuff from TextMate, 11:07.040 --> 11:08.720 like these syntax highlighting grammars 11:08.720 --> 11:11.040 and the snippet definitions, etc. 11:11.040 --> 11:12.240 So you had TextMate 11:12.240 --> 11:13.519 which was a well-loved editor, 11:13.519 --> 11:15.200 but then a new editor called Sublime Text 11:15.200 --> 11:17.200 came along with better functionality, 11:17.200 --> 11:18.880 and people started switching over to it 11:18.880 --> 11:20.160 because it could do more things 11:20.160 --> 11:21.680 and the user had more ability 11:21.680 --> 11:24.399 to add functionality to it. 11:24.399 --> 11:26.880 Also, VS Code came along 11:26.880 --> 11:27.920 and used a similar model 11:27.920 --> 11:29.120 to the Atom editor, 11:29.120 --> 11:31.360 basically being a web-based editor 11:31.360 --> 11:32.480 using Electron, 11:32.480 --> 11:34.640 but it greatly improved upon performance 11:34.640 --> 11:36.640 and IDE tooling ecosystem. 11:36.640 --> 11:38.640 For people getting real work done 11:38.640 --> 11:39.519 with large projects, 11:39.519 --> 11:41.120 you need to have things like IntelliSense, 11:41.120 --> 11:42.800 and being able to find definitions 11:42.800 --> 11:45.839 of functions or classes that are defined. 11:45.839 --> 11:47.040 So you have a new editor 11:47.040 --> 11:47.519 that comes along 11:47.519 --> 11:49.440 that has basically better functionality 11:49.440 --> 11:51.279 than the one that was there before. 11:51.279 --> 11:52.399 But the thing is, 11:52.399 --> 11:53.760 if you have a new editor that comes along 11:53.760 --> 11:54.720 with better functionality, 11:54.720 --> 11:57.120 it still has to be at least as good as 11:57.120 --> 11:58.800 or better than the previous editor 11:58.800 --> 12:00.000 for people to stick with it. 12:00.000 --> 12:02.480 So it's a very tall order 12:02.480 --> 12:03.680 for someone to say 12:03.680 --> 12:05.200 there's going to be some editor 12:05.200 --> 12:05.839 that will come along 12:05.839 --> 12:07.040 that would be better than Emacs 12:07.040 --> 12:08.240 on every dimension, 12:08.240 --> 12:09.680 because there are some unique dimensions 12:09.680 --> 12:11.360 that are hard to beat 12:11.360 --> 12:14.160 in an editor like Emacs. 12:14.160 --> 12:15.920 Lack of sufficient maintenance. 12:15.920 --> 12:16.560 That's one thing 12:16.560 --> 12:17.600 that could possibly happen 12:17.600 --> 12:19.279 if an editor loses popularity. 12:19.279 --> 12:20.687 So maybe sometimes... 12:20.687 --> 12:22.480 Sorry, that's something 12:22.480 --> 12:23.440 that can cause a lack, 12:23.440 --> 00:12:25.679 a loss of popularity. 12:25.680 --> 12:26.959 Sometimes the development team 12:26.959 --> 12:28.320 for an editor either moves on 12:28.320 --> 12:29.279 or maybe switches focus 12:29.279 --> 12:30.720 to a different project. 12:30.720 --> 12:32.079 When this happens, the development 12:32.079 --> 12:33.360 of the editor can stagnate, 12:33.360 --> 12:36.240 giving the impression that it's dead. 12:37.279 --> 12:38.160 You can see this happening 12:38.160 --> 12:40.720 a lot of times on repositories 12:40.720 --> 12:41.920 for open source projects, 12:41.920 --> 12:43.440 where if someone doesn't make any commits 12:43.440 --> 12:44.639 or adding new features for a while, 12:44.639 --> 12:45.839 people just automatically assume 12:45.839 --> 12:46.880 that the thing is dead, 12:46.880 --> 12:48.399 even if it's in a very stable state 12:48.399 --> 12:49.920 and doesn't really need any improvements 12:49.920 --> 12:53.680 to be made. This is something 12:53.680 --> 12:55.360 that can happen over time. 12:55.360 --> 12:56.720 The developers of Sublime Text 12:56.720 --> 12:57.920 sometimes give the impression 12:57.920 --> 12:59.519 that the editor isn't being maintained 12:59.519 --> 13:02.000 because of long breaks between updates, 13:02.000 --> 13:03.360 and this gives people... 13:03.360 --> 13:04.560 If you go search for 13:04.560 --> 13:05.440 "Is Sublime Text dead?", 13:05.440 --> 13:06.800 you'll see posts about this 13:07.519 --> 13:08.240 every couple years, 13:08.240 --> 13:09.120 where people are wondering 13:09.120 --> 13:10.320 what's happening with Sublime Text, 13:10.320 --> 13:12.320 when in reality, there's actually 13:12.320 --> 13:15.120 development happening on this project, 13:15.120 --> 13:18.160 and paid users are getting these updates 13:18.160 --> 13:19.279 because they've paid, 13:19.279 --> 13:20.639 but the product is not open source. 13:20.639 --> 13:21.600 You have no visibility 13:21.600 --> 13:22.399 into the development. 13:22.399 --> 13:24.639 So if people have the perception 13:24.639 --> 13:26.160 that the editor is not being maintained, 13:26.160 --> 13:26.880 then there's going to be 13:26.880 --> 13:28.079 rumors getting started, 13:28.079 --> 13:29.200 and that could cause 13:29.200 --> 13:30.959 the mentality of people to shift 13:30.959 --> 13:32.639 and try to move on to other editors 13:32.639 --> 13:34.240 because they perceive them to be 13:34.240 --> 13:36.399 more well-maintained or more active. 13:36.399 --> 13:37.920 Another problem can be that there are 13:37.920 --> 13:39.839 major bugs that persist over a long time 13:39.839 --> 13:41.040 that aren't being fixed 13:41.040 --> 13:42.560 while the maintainers are focusing on 13:42.560 --> 13:44.639 some other efforts in the project, 13:44.639 --> 13:46.000 and this could hurt sentiment 13:46.000 --> 13:48.160 in the community and cause a backlash 13:48.160 --> 13:49.120 leading to an exodus. 13:49.120 --> 13:51.120 So if you have really bad bugs 13:51.120 --> 13:51.600 and people think 13:51.600 --> 13:52.560 that you're not really concerned 13:52.560 --> 13:53.519 about fixing them, 13:53.519 --> 13:54.399 then that could be something 13:54.399 --> 13:55.360 that would cause an editor 13:55.360 --> 13:56.399 to lose popularity 13:56.399 --> 13:58.000 as people move on to find something else 13:58.000 --> 00:14:01.039 that appears to be more stable. 14:01.040 --> 14:03.199 Lastly, sometimes all it takes is 14:03.199 --> 14:04.480 for a new programming language 14:04.480 --> 14:05.279 to become popular 14:05.279 --> 14:06.880 or for an influential person to say 14:06.880 --> 14:08.720 that they switched to a different editor, 14:08.720 --> 14:14.560 because people are capable of being led 14:14.560 --> 14:16.720 by someone else who is influential, 14:16.720 --> 14:18.320 so sometimes it's just... 14:18.320 --> 14:20.240 All it takes is someone to say, you know, 14:20.240 --> 14:22.240 I'm not going to use this editor any more, 14:22.240 --> 14:24.000 and other people will follow. 14:24.000 --> 14:26.240 But oftentimes, it's not just about 14:26.240 --> 14:27.199 the fashion changing, 14:27.199 --> 14:28.560 it's also there's other problems 14:28.560 --> 14:29.040 that are happening. 14:29.040 --> 14:29.680 Some of these other things 14:29.680 --> 14:30.959 that I mentioned before 14:30.959 --> 14:32.160 that could be contributing 14:32.160 --> 14:33.839 to this overall sentiment 14:33.839 --> 00:14:36.958 that caused people to move on. 14:36.959 --> 14:38.000 So then what happens 14:38.000 --> 14:40.000 when an editor loses popularity? 14:40.000 --> 14:40.800 If people are worried 14:40.800 --> 14:43.120 that Emacs is going to lose popularity, 14:43.120 --> 14:44.880 what happens if it doesn't gain more? 14:44.880 --> 14:47.839 So what are the possible consequences? 14:47.839 --> 14:49.120 Well, maybe core maintainers 14:49.120 --> 14:50.399 will gradually leave the project 14:50.399 --> 14:52.160 with nobody to replace them. I mean, 14:52.160 --> 14:53.839 if you have a project like Emacs 14:53.839 --> 14:57.199 where there's a core 14:57.199 --> 14:58.240 that's written in a language 14:58.240 --> 14:59.600 that's different than the language 14:59.600 --> 15:01.040 everybody uses to extend it, 15:01.040 --> 15:02.240 then maybe it's risky 15:02.240 --> 15:03.440 to have people leave the project 15:03.440 --> 15:04.800 because you don't have other people 15:04.800 --> 15:06.560 to come along who can help maintain it 15:06.560 --> 15:10.240 and to carry on the knowledge of the core. 15:10.240 --> 15:11.519 Also, maybe no new features 15:11.519 --> 15:13.279 are being added to stay competitive 15:13.279 --> 15:14.800 with other editors. 15:14.800 --> 15:15.920 So this is one of these things 15:15.920 --> 15:17.120 where people kind of feel like 15:17.120 --> 15:18.800 there's a feature mill, where you know 15:18.800 --> 15:20.880 if new features are coming online 15:20.880 --> 15:21.680 in other editors, 15:21.680 --> 15:23.279 maybe your editor needs to catch up. 15:23.279 --> 15:24.160 Well, I don't really think that 15:24.160 --> 15:25.279 that's necessarily needed, 15:25.279 --> 15:28.160 but if there are new paradigms 15:28.160 --> 15:29.839 or usage patterns or workflows 15:29.839 --> 15:32.320 that are becoming... 15:32.320 --> 15:33.759 I guess you could say mainstream, 15:33.759 --> 15:34.800 sometimes it does make sense 15:34.800 --> 15:37.199 for an editor to be able to adopt these, 15:37.199 --> 15:37.759 but if you have 15:37.759 --> 15:39.519 a sufficiently extendable editor, 15:39.519 --> 15:41.440 then oftentimes, you don't really need to 15:41.440 --> 15:42.079 do anything other than 15:42.079 --> 15:44.480 just write a new package. 15:44.480 --> 15:46.160 Critical bugs that never get fixed... 15:46.160 --> 15:48.240 I mean, if people start to drift off 15:48.240 --> 15:49.839 from the project, it is much more likely 15:49.839 --> 15:52.720 that bad bugs won't get fixed over time. 15:52.720 --> 15:54.079 Less community interest in creating 15:54.079 --> 15:55.199 and maintaining packages. 15:55.199 --> 15:56.320 There's another possibility 15:56.320 --> 15:57.519 if people don't feel like 15:57.519 --> 15:58.880 it's worth their time anymore 15:58.880 --> 16:00.079 because not many people 16:00.079 --> 16:00.880 are using an editor, 16:00.880 --> 16:02.480 maybe they'll have more users 16:02.480 --> 16:03.279 or more interaction 16:03.279 --> 16:04.959 if they go write a similar package 16:04.959 --> 16:07.440 for a different editor. 16:07.440 --> 16:10.079 Less blog posts, videos, content. 16:10.079 --> 16:11.519 Basically, like, if people feel 16:11.519 --> 16:12.480 that it's not worth their time 16:12.480 --> 16:13.839 to make content about the editor either, 16:13.839 --> 16:15.360 or if you're just not interested any more, 16:15.360 --> 16:17.040 then those things will dry up. 16:17.040 --> 16:18.639 And also one thing that is possible, 16:18.639 --> 16:19.839 but probably not very likely, 16:19.839 --> 16:21.839 is that the program may not be 16:21.839 --> 16:24.000 packaged any more in Linux distributions 16:24.000 --> 16:25.680 or for other operating systems. 16:25.680 --> 16:27.519 So if it's not worth someone to package it, 16:27.519 --> 16:29.040 or they just sort of lose interest 16:29.040 --> 16:31.360 in the editor, then maybe those things 16:31.360 --> 16:32.320 sort of drift away 16:32.320 --> 16:33.920 and you can't even install it any more 16:33.920 --> 16:35.360 in many places. 16:35.360 --> 16:36.399 But I feel that these things 16:36.399 --> 16:37.279 would only really happen 16:37.279 --> 16:39.279 if there was already other major issues 16:39.279 --> 16:41.920 in the dev team or in the community, 16:41.920 --> 16:44.320 like maybe a high profile schism 16:44.320 --> 16:45.199 in the maintainer team, 16:45.199 --> 16:47.519 sort of like what we saw with GNU Emacs 16:47.519 --> 16:49.759 versus XEmacs, because you have 16:49.759 --> 16:50.959 two competing versions 16:50.959 --> 16:52.160 of the same idea 16:52.160 --> 16:53.600 with different implementations, 16:53.600 --> 16:54.800 and then over time, 16:54.800 --> 16:55.920 one of them may fade out 16:55.920 --> 16:57.839 because people just lose interest 16:57.839 --> 17:00.800 and maybe something like GNU Emacs 17:00.800 --> 17:02.399 gradually catches up and surpasses it 17:02.399 --> 17:04.720 in functionality. So these things 17:04.720 --> 17:07.520 can happen, but it's not really 17:07.520 --> 00:17:10.239 as likely as people would think, I think. 17:10.240 --> 17:12.959 So how is Emacs going to survive 17:12.959 --> 17:15.280 despite popularity? I feel that 17:15.280 --> 17:16.640 there are a few important 17:16.640 --> 17:17.679 and unique factors 17:17.679 --> 00:17:20.159 that are going to contribute to this. 17:20.160 --> 17:21.520 First of all, Emacs is 17:21.520 --> 17:22.720 more deeply hackable 17:22.720 --> 17:24.959 than almost all other editors. 17:24.959 --> 17:26.000 I'm couching that a bit, 17:26.000 --> 17:26.880 but really it is 17:26.880 --> 17:28.000 basically more extensible 17:28.000 --> 17:28.960 than any other editor. 17:28.960 --> 17:29.679 I haven't seen one 17:29.679 --> 17:31.440 that's more extensible than Emacs so far, 17:31.440 --> 17:32.000 and that's because 17:32.000 --> 17:34.160 Emacs was designed for this. 17:34.160 --> 17:35.360 The whole point of Emacs 17:35.360 --> 17:36.960 is that you should be able to go in 17:36.960 --> 17:38.320 and customize your workflow, 17:38.320 --> 17:39.600 and customize the editor to do 17:39.600 --> 17:41.039 exactly what you want it to do. 17:41.039 --> 17:44.080 It's this whole idea of user freedom. 17:44.080 --> 17:46.320 You're not letting the editor designer 17:46.320 --> 17:47.120 tell you what to do, 17:47.120 --> 17:48.880 you're telling the editor what to do 17:48.880 --> 17:50.559 at every step of the way. 17:50.559 --> 17:53.440 Also, an Emacs user can grow their skills 17:53.440 --> 17:55.039 from small configuration tweaks, 17:55.039 --> 17:56.240 just basically setting variables 17:56.240 --> 17:57.280 and whatnot, to writing 17:57.280 --> 17:58.960 their own packages over time, 17:58.960 --> 17:59.600 and then eventually 17:59.600 --> 18:01.280 to contributing to Emacs itself-- 18:01.280 --> 18:02.320 the same skill set, 18:02.320 --> 18:03.360 because the majority 18:03.360 --> 18:04.640 of the functionality of the editor 18:04.640 --> 18:06.160 is written with the same language 18:06.160 --> 18:07.600 that you use to configure it. 18:07.600 --> 18:09.280 So unlike other editors, 18:09.280 --> 18:10.960 where you have... 18:10.960 --> 18:12.960 the way that you write extensions 18:12.960 --> 18:13.440 for the editor, 18:13.440 --> 18:14.960 that has a specific API, 18:14.960 --> 18:16.400 but if you go contribute to the core, 18:16.400 --> 18:18.160 the code base is completely different. 18:18.160 --> 18:19.280 It's different with Emacs 18:19.280 --> 18:22.640 because you have basically the same APIs, 18:22.640 --> 18:24.320 the same code and same everything 18:24.320 --> 18:26.080 that you use to write a package 18:26.080 --> 18:28.160 versus writing actual code 18:28.160 --> 18:29.600 for functionality for the editor. 18:29.600 --> 18:30.960 Now obviously, there's the C layer 18:30.960 --> 18:32.000 that is different, 18:32.000 --> 18:34.000 but I think a lot of the actual packages 18:34.000 --> 18:35.280 and functionality in Emacs 18:35.280 --> 18:36.640 are at the Emacs Lisp layer. 18:36.640 --> 18:38.797 So what this means is that 18:38.797 --> 18:41.120 Emacs configuration hackers 18:41.120 --> 18:42.000 and package authors 18:42.000 --> 18:43.200 are prime candidates 18:43.200 --> 18:44.880 for eventually becoming contributors 18:44.880 --> 18:46.960 to Emacs itself. You see this play out 18:46.960 --> 18:48.559 a lot of times in Emacs community, 18:48.559 --> 18:49.760 where someone writes 18:49.760 --> 18:51.039 some really good packages, 18:51.039 --> 18:52.240 and either parts of those 18:52.240 --> 18:53.440 get merged into Emacs 18:53.440 --> 18:55.520 or that person maybe makes contributions 18:55.520 --> 18:57.280 to Emacs to add new functionality 18:57.280 --> 18:59.360 that their own packages can use, 18:59.360 --> 19:01.679 or just to improve Emacs as a whole. 19:01.679 --> 19:03.679 So there's much more chance 19:03.679 --> 19:04.880 that people who are involved 19:04.880 --> 19:06.160 in the community of Emacs 19:06.160 --> 19:07.440 can actually become contributors 19:07.440 --> 19:08.480 to the project itself. 19:08.480 --> 19:09.200 I think that's going to be 19:09.200 --> 19:11.600 very important for its health. 19:11.600 --> 19:13.200 Also, you don't need to add functionality 19:13.200 --> 19:14.080 to Emacs core 19:14.080 --> 19:16.160 to make the editor itself better. 19:16.160 --> 19:17.120 Package authors are on 19:17.120 --> 19:18.480 an equal playing field 19:18.480 --> 19:19.679 as the built-in functionality, 19:19.679 --> 19:21.008 for the same reason what I said before. 19:21.008 --> 19:22.640 Everything's written with Emacs Lisp, 19:22.640 --> 19:24.160 or I guess a lot of the functionality 19:24.160 --> 19:26.000 is written with Emacs Lisp. 19:26.000 --> 19:28.720 Since there's a lot of ways to hook into 19:28.720 --> 19:30.720 or replace functionality in Emacs, 19:30.720 --> 19:33.280 you can do a lot of deep customizations 19:33.280 --> 19:35.360 to Emacs itself to make it better 19:35.360 --> 19:37.600 in ways that aren't really... 19:37.600 --> 19:39.760 The core developers don't need to 19:39.760 --> 19:40.960 add new things for you to do that. 19:40.960 --> 19:42.320 You can just do it if you want to. 19:42.320 --> 19:44.640 So that gives Emacs more of 19:44.640 --> 19:45.840 a platform feel 19:45.840 --> 19:47.440 rather than just being an editor 19:47.440 --> 00:19:51.439 that can't really be changed very much. 19:51.440 --> 19:53.440 Also, Emacs has a strong community 19:53.440 --> 19:56.080 of highly-skilled packaged authors 19:56.080 --> 19:58.000 and the high-quality packages 19:58.000 --> 19:59.919 that they create make it far better 19:59.919 --> 20:01.679 and more uniquely valuable 20:01.679 --> 20:02.960 than many other editors. 20:02.960 --> 20:04.960 Specifically, things like Org mode, 20:04.960 --> 20:06.240 Magit, Org-roam, 20:06.240 --> 20:07.039 and a lot of other things 20:07.039 --> 20:08.000 that we've talked about 20:08.000 --> 20:10.000 on the System Crafters channel over time, 20:10.000 --> 20:11.136 and the hundreds of other 20:11.136 --> 20:12.480 workflow-improving packages 20:12.480 --> 20:14.720 that have been created over the years. 20:14.720 --> 20:18.559 So all these things really make Emacs 20:18.559 --> 20:20.159 a unique offering 20:20.159 --> 20:21.679 in the space of text editors, 20:21.679 --> 20:22.640 or development tools, 20:22.640 --> 20:24.240 or even just general 20:24.240 --> 20:25.440 information management tools, 20:25.440 --> 20:27.120 or desktop environments, 20:27.120 --> 20:28.960 if you want to call it that. 20:28.960 --> 20:31.280 So the people who are involved 20:31.280 --> 20:32.159 in making these things 20:32.159 --> 20:33.600 make Emacs far better than it could be 20:33.600 --> 20:35.039 just by itself, 20:35.039 --> 20:37.360 and this thriving ecosystem helps Emacs 20:37.360 --> 20:39.120 to continually feel fresh, 20:39.120 --> 20:40.320 regardless of what's happening 20:40.320 --> 20:41.600 in core Emacs development, 20:41.600 --> 20:43.840 because packages can do so much 20:43.840 --> 20:45.280 and because people can come along 20:45.280 --> 20:46.640 and propose sort of 20:46.640 --> 20:47.760 a new way of doing things 20:47.760 --> 20:49.360 and other people can start using it. 20:49.360 --> 20:51.120 Emacs itself doesn't have to be 20:51.120 --> 20:52.400 beholden to just what 20:52.400 --> 20:53.840 the core developers do. 20:53.840 --> 20:55.280 The community can also play 20:55.280 --> 20:57.760 a major role in making Emacs feel fresh 20:57.760 --> 20:59.919 and be modernized over time. 20:59.919 --> 21:01.360 Just take a look at what Doom Emacs 21:01.360 --> 21:03.919 is doing to give Emacs a better face, 21:03.919 --> 21:04.960 and Spacemacs as well. 21:04.960 --> 21:06.240 Those things are very good 21:06.240 --> 21:08.000 for making Emacs more palatable 21:08.000 --> 21:09.440 to the general public, 21:09.440 --> 21:11.120 because you have a much better experience 21:11.120 --> 21:12.240 out of the box, and a lot of things 21:12.240 --> 21:12.880 have been polished 21:12.880 --> 00:21:15.279 for the user experience. 21:15.280 --> 21:17.200 Emacs also has a very strong 21:17.200 --> 21:18.799 user community. Lots of activity 21:18.799 --> 21:20.000 and discussion about emacs 21:20.000 --> 21:21.440 is taking place all the time 21:21.440 --> 21:22.559 in various places, 21:22.559 --> 21:23.919 like we talked about before. 21:23.919 --> 21:26.559 Mailing lists, IRC, Reddit, etc. 21:26.559 --> 21:28.159 If you get into Emacs 21:28.159 --> 21:28.880 and you go take part 21:28.880 --> 21:29.840 in the Emacs community, 21:29.840 --> 21:30.640 there's always going to be 21:30.640 --> 21:32.000 somebody around who's going to want to 21:32.000 --> 21:33.520 talk about Emacs with you 21:33.520 --> 21:34.960 and answer your questions. 21:34.960 --> 21:37.120 So it's a very good thing 21:37.120 --> 21:39.039 for the health of the project 21:39.039 --> 21:40.320 because there's a lot of people there 21:40.320 --> 21:42.640 that are very invested in it every day 21:42.640 --> 21:45.120 and want to see it succeed. 21:45.120 --> 21:47.039 Also, there's many community members 21:47.039 --> 21:47.840 writing articles 21:47.840 --> 21:49.440 and making videos about Emacs, 21:49.440 --> 21:51.280 many of which are actually moving forward 21:51.280 --> 21:52.240 the state of the art 21:52.240 --> 21:53.679 about how we use the editor, 21:53.679 --> 21:55.360 and how we use it... I mean, 21:55.360 --> 21:56.480 how many times have you seen 21:56.480 --> 21:57.520 a really great blog post 21:57.520 --> 21:59.120 that completely blew your mind 21:59.120 --> 22:00.880 and showed you a new way 22:00.880 --> 22:02.720 to use Emacs, or a new way to think about 22:02.720 --> 22:05.120 how you use Emacs. I see stuff like that 22:05.120 --> 22:08.480 all the time, like posts by Protesilaos, 22:08.480 --> 22:10.640 or by Karthik, or by many other people 22:10.640 --> 22:12.080 who show you a new way 22:12.080 --> 22:13.360 to look at things, and then you're, like, 22:13.360 --> 22:14.720 Wow. This... I could do things 22:14.720 --> 22:15.200 completely different 22:15.200 --> 22:16.559 than I was doing before. 22:16.559 --> 22:17.200 This kind of stuff 22:17.200 --> 22:18.240 is extremely important 22:18.240 --> 22:20.080 for the health of the editor 22:20.080 --> 22:22.799 going forward, because people are able to 22:22.799 --> 22:24.799 inspire others to use the editor. 22:24.799 --> 22:26.559 It's a great thing for evangelism as well. 22:26.559 --> 22:28.080 Like, if someone happens to 22:28.080 --> 22:30.080 stumble across a video or a blog post, 22:30.080 --> 00:22:33.439 they may be really inspired to use Emacs. 22:33.440 --> 22:35.280 And lastly, the Emacs maintainers 22:35.280 --> 22:36.720 and contributors really care 22:36.720 --> 22:38.000 about the users. 22:38.000 --> 22:39.280 There are many core maintainers 22:39.280 --> 22:40.080 who have been with the project 22:40.080 --> 22:43.360 for 10+ years, some way longer than that. 22:43.360 --> 22:45.200 So it shows you that 22:45.200 --> 22:46.559 the people who work on this project 22:46.559 --> 22:47.600 really care a lot, 22:47.600 --> 22:48.640 and they're very invested 22:48.640 --> 22:51.120 in making sure that it remains healthy 22:51.120 --> 22:53.360 for the long term. 22:53.360 --> 22:55.440 They also really care about ensuring 22:55.440 --> 22:56.720 that Emacs continues to work well 22:56.720 --> 22:58.159 for long-time users, 22:58.159 --> 23:00.080 (and some people have been using it 23:00.080 --> 23:01.280 for 30 to 40 years, 23:01.280 --> 23:02.400 which is kind of insane, 23:02.400 --> 23:03.760 if you think about it), 23:03.760 --> 23:05.679 all while gradually and sensibly 23:05.679 --> 23:07.120 enabling new scenarios 23:07.120 --> 23:08.080 and core improvements 23:08.080 --> 23:09.280 that benefit all of us, 23:09.280 --> 23:11.520 even the new and the old users. 23:11.520 --> 23:12.880 Keeping a piece of software 23:12.880 --> 23:13.600 running and relevant 23:13.600 --> 23:14.400 for this many years 23:14.400 --> 23:15.440 is a huge effort, 23:15.440 --> 23:16.799 so I'm very thankful 23:16.799 --> 23:18.480 to the maintainers of Emacs, 23:18.480 --> 23:20.159 and I hope all of you are as well, 23:20.159 --> 23:22.799 because this is kind of an anomaly 23:22.799 --> 23:23.600 in the software field 23:23.600 --> 23:24.960 to have a piece of software 23:24.960 --> 23:26.640 that has existed for so long, 23:26.640 --> 23:30.000 who has managed to survive 23:30.000 --> 23:31.840 despite various different types 23:31.840 --> 23:33.280 of platform transitions, 23:33.280 --> 23:35.280 operating transitions over the years 23:35.280 --> 23:37.360 and still thrive and be a very useful 23:37.360 --> 23:38.559 and very key piece of software 23:38.559 --> 00:23:40.959 for a lot of people. 23:40.960 --> 23:42.320 So aren't all these things 23:42.320 --> 23:43.039 that we just talked about 23:43.039 --> 23:43.840 supposed to come 23:43.840 --> 23:45.279 when an editor is popular? 23:45.279 --> 23:46.080 We've been talking about 23:46.080 --> 23:47.039 what is popularity, 23:47.039 --> 23:48.720 what benefits come with popularity. 23:48.720 --> 23:50.320 So all the things I just mentioned, 23:50.320 --> 23:51.120 shouldn't that be something 23:51.120 --> 23:52.720 that would only be for editors 23:52.720 --> 23:54.640 that are super popular? Well, I guess 23:54.640 --> 23:56.720 the answer is maybe Emacs is actually 23:56.720 --> 23:57.840 popular enough. 23:57.840 --> 23:58.799 That doesn't necessarily mean 23:58.799 --> 24:00.640 that we should not try to 24:00.640 --> 24:03.600 help other people find Emacs, 24:03.600 --> 24:04.960 but I think that we should not 24:04.960 --> 24:05.760 worry so much about 24:05.760 --> 24:06.880 the popularity of Emacs, 24:06.880 --> 24:08.480 because what we have is great, 24:08.480 --> 24:11.120 and we should just focus our time 24:11.120 --> 24:13.919 on continuing to improve the health 24:13.919 --> 24:15.520 of the community that we have 24:15.520 --> 24:17.360 and the health of the editor itself, 24:17.360 --> 24:19.440 and not worry too much about chasing 24:19.440 --> 24:20.880 whatever is happening out in the world 24:20.880 --> 00:24:22.879 at any given point. 24:22.880 --> 24:26.159 To conclude, the next time someone says 24:26.159 --> 24:27.760 we should do this thing 24:27.760 --> 24:28.559 or this other thing 24:28.559 --> 24:30.400 to make Emacs more popular, 24:30.400 --> 24:32.240 ask them these questions. 24:32.240 --> 24:35.200 1. What does popularity mean to you? 24:35.200 --> 24:37.279 2. How do you measure it? 24:37.279 --> 24:39.440 3. What do you think Emacs is going to 24:39.440 --> 24:41.600 gain from increased popularity? 24:41.600 --> 24:43.279 So I hope that you found this talk 24:43.279 --> 24:44.159 inspiring and maybe 24:44.159 --> 24:46.320 a little bit reassuring. Thanks so much 24:46.320 --> 24:48.240 for your time, and happy hacking. 24:48.240 --> 24:50.867 We'll see ya. 24:50.867 --> 24:51.559 [captions by sachac]