From c6c2d25cb561946e993e5dc5919afed8017cd087 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Sacha Chua Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 20:18:23 -0500 Subject: add etherpads to wiki pages --- 2022/talks/rms.md | 362 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 1 file changed, 362 insertions(+) (limited to '2022/talks/rms.md') diff --git a/2022/talks/rms.md b/2022/talks/rms.md index 634dca1e..e1a36bf0 100644 --- a/2022/talks/rms.md +++ b/2022/talks/rms.md @@ -15,6 +15,368 @@ We will play [Richard Stallman's 2014 TEDx video: "Free Sofware, Free Society"]( Reactions: - [Why do we hack?](http://curious.galthub.com/blog/2022-12-04/) +# Discussion + +## Notes + +- +- (regarding reports of attacks against + him) +- \"Free Software\": A similar point of view related to contributing + to gated web forums: + +- \"Everything other than an Lispy language would be wrong for GNU + Emacs\" (paraphrased) +- RMS wants an update to \"An Introduction to Programming in Emacs + Lisp\" to cover changes to Emacs such as lexical binding. +- Names of packages should help you remember what this package does. + Omit pure word-plays. Stick to names that people will remember. +- RMS wants to edit formatted documents within Emacs using WYSIWYG + (like with LibreOffice) +- RMS wants to get back to the situation where browsers decided how a + web page is rendered. Less browser features that allow to control + the look by the web page providers. +- RMS doesn\'t want to use packages that are not actually part of + Emacs (e.g., Magit). RMS is using VC and not git. +- RMS: \"Happy hacking\" + +## Questions and answers + +- Q: Pragmatically, how are people that buy into these ideals, and + especially those that build the software, meant to live/thrive, + short of renouncing many of the luxuries of modern life, as many + have been struggling to reconcile both it appears. Wouldn\'t it be + smarter and more productive longer-term to solve that problem too? + - A: (answered on stream, will be copied later) +- Q: I have been admiring your work for free software for many years + now. I am a bit concerned about what will happen to the GNU project + when you retire (not soon, I hope!!). Have you planned how to manage + the GNU project in the long run? + - A: (answering on stream, will be copied later) + - RMS: haven\'t found a way yet. We\'ll have to try again. +- Q: In response to your aversion to JavaScript support in Emacs: In + the same way that to revolt against the nonfree spirit in software + development one has to develop software, and that to fight nonfree + compilers one has to write a free compiler - can you fairly consider + rejection of JavaScript as a tool conducive to improving the state + of free JavaScript? A server can send back any MIME type to execute + on your machine, JS was just the most convenient. + - A: The issue is different in kind. We already have free JS + support.  Free browsers contain it.  The issue is the programs + that are going to run. If JS would allow you to inspect the code + before runing it, it wouldn\'t be problematic. The problem is + that they end up in your browser and the user has no idea + what\'s happening.  Websites are mistreating users. The + important thing about it is the danger it creates.  +- Q: With all the recent additions and optimizations to Emacs Lisp + (lexical scoping, native compilation etc.) would you deem Emacs Lisp + suitable for general purpose programming outside Emacs (i.e. + scripting, running web servers). If not, why? + - A: Nothing wrong with this in principle, but it would be a + distraction. I\'d rather we didn\'t do it. If we had 1K + programmers ready to do this and every other thing, no problem. + We don\'t. There are many other platforms that can accommodate + programs. I\'d rather use emacs to do its work and leaving other + languages to theirs.  +- Q: Would a namespace system similar to Common Lisp packages but + without :USE work in Emacs? Modern CL implementations have package + local nicknames to create package local prefixes. + - A: Basically, yes, but it has issues. \[rest will be copied from + stream later\...\] A naming convention would be much simpler to + get right. +- Q: With Emacs 29 adding more (awesome) features into vanilla emacs, + how should we ensure vanilla emacs does not get bloated with many + similar features? (example : ido/icomplete, vc/magit) + - A:To some extent we can\'t, because users do things differently. + I have never used Magit because I didn\'t want to use anything + not part of Emacs. I was unable to get into contact with the + Magit developer regarding integration of it within Emacs. I do + not use git as my main vc system. I think when packages have + very different approaches about how to handle things (like vc + versus magit) their approaches are not redundant. +- Q: What do you have in mind for more modular Emacs development? + - A: There is no specific feature, but a way of thinking about + modularity when you write each package because you\'ll find that + when interacting with other packages you\'ll identify hooks that + may be there or may be missing. You could add a fairly general + hook so that instead of a rigid connection to other parts of + emacs you could use a general purpose hook that could do a lot + of things including the thing you need it to do. +- Q: Could you give a few examples of the medium-sized jobs necessary + for WYSIWYG-editor support in Emacs? + - A: I can\'t really, but I would appreciate it if people started + putting that together. If you look at LIbreOffice then you could + choose a subset of very important ones that will give everyone a + start.  +- Q:Is there an up-do-date document where people can see what is and + isn\'t on the roadmap, and why? i.e. a live version of talks like + this or email threads on emacs-devel? + - A: Not that I\'m aware of. + - etc/TODO +- Q: Should GNU (or someone else) define a safe-subset of HTML/CSS/JS + to make web browsers simpler and safer (e.g. by preventing JS from + contacting servers)? + - A: This would be an interesting thing to explore, but I don\'t + know if it can be done. Browser profiling is facilitated by + javascript. So, there is a collection of benchmarks and results + are different. So it allows the browser to gain information + without employing cookies.  +- Q: How can we ensure the continuity of an understanding of the more + arcane parts of the \[Emacs\] source code, and increase their + evolvability, notably with regards to display, single-threading + limitations, etc.? + - A:  Single threading is a very specific thing. The furthest that + I\'ve bothered to think about it is to enable multiple LISP + programs to run in parallel. My machine doesn\'t allow me to run + multiple threads in a single program, so it never mattered to + me. Basically, dev of the displaycode without threads is more + feasible. However, changes in the buffer data structure would be + required and that will be the hard part. Representing a buffer + with a certain display needs to be worked out first. You have to + decide the data structure thinking about how display can handle + it efficiently. Think about that at that stage. The editing and + data structure is the part to figure out. +- Q: Do you recommend reaching out in \[high\] schools for volunteers + instead of universities because they are more prone to value the + objectives of freedom? +- Do you recommend reaching out in schools for volunteers for both + advocacy and for development instead of unversities because they are + more prone to value the objectives of freedom? + - A: Reaching out for what? To teach about freedom or to find more + developers? Can you elaborate? **Questioner**:   + - A: my entrypoint in school was LaTex.  +- Q: There was an effort called guile-emacs a while back, and there + was some effort to get guile to be able to compile and run + emacs-lisp, you mentioned there were still some challenges related + to guile, what road blocks kept some of these other efforts from + being used with Emacs? + - A: We never finished the problem of reconciling guile-emacs data + types with Emacs Lisp data types (such as handling nil/\#f/() + interoperation \[and string/buffer handling\]). +- Q: Are there any problems or disadvantages using the GNU AGPL for + non-networked software like Emacs packages? + - A: I figured the community would be happier if the radical + change did not happen in the license itself.  +- Q: Is there a list of Emacs issues which can be solved by + programmers with different levels? For example my level is A, I know + basic elisp and C. How can i help? + - A: I don\'t know of one. I tend to think that people who know + only a basic knowledge. Looking at bugs and thinking about how + they could debug them, you could alert the developers. In the + process you\'ll learn more about how programs are written and + how to understand them.  +- Q: What do you use emacs for beyond editing? Nice song :-) + - A: I use it for reading and writing email; this is what I do + most of the day.  (**Sings**)  + - \"I\'ve been answering my email, + - all the god-damned day / .. / \\] +- Q:With features like org-mode and enriched-mode, it seems like Emacs + is getting closer to the goal of WSIWYG. Are there specific ways in + which you see these as falling short? +- Q: Do you use Org/Org-mode, and if so to what extent? + - A: No. Originally, it was an outlining mode that I never tried + to use. The documentation was not easy for  nme to grasp because + I had no use for it. Then others developed other ways to use the + org syntax. I was not interested in using the org syntax. The + process was daunting. It was not easy to separate other modules + used with org mode. Org mode could become an advance\-- not + saying that it isn\'t useful\-- if extended to do it, we could + use a replacement for texinfo. Texinfo\'s syntax was arcane and + was based on TeX. It could become a better way to write GNU + manuals. Probably more people know that syntax and if it could + be extended then it could be a superior way to write the + manuals. But we need to be able to generate all of the outputs + that we can generate now. HTML, info files, info browsers like + the one inside emacs, and generating input to TeX. This is not a + gigantic job. It is two or three medium-sized jobs.   +- Q:Emacs is used by a small population relative to the population + that could benefit from it.  Do you have any thoughts on how to + expand the user base more broadly even among software developers? + - A: No. Basically, the fact is that vscode has an advantage\-- + which comes from Microsoft, which is putting it together as a + part of evil proprietary software\... Users don\'t understand + that issue. I wish I could come up with a way to show them + what\'s at stake and why.  The TEDX talk is the closest thing.  +- Q: It's hard to pick up Emacs if you do not speak English, can + something be done to address that? + - A: What do you actually suggest? Manuals? Messages that Emacs + displays? Command names? The easiest thing would be to deal wiht + the messages. It\'s hard to adapt it to Emacs because there is + no fixed set of messages. It could be done. It\'s not a terribly + hard process. Maybe differrent command names or an alternative + to meta-x. If you typed this other thing, it would only complete + over the other names in the native language. Working out the + details would take a great deal of thought. Docstrings: you + could write another set of them and write a set of help + commands.  +- Q: What was the thought process behind making emacs lisp dynamically + scoped when you first created it? What advantages did it provide + over the alternative? + - A: It was simple. I did know how to implement it to build a + simple and small Lisp interpreter and being small was crucial to + bootstrap it on the hardware of that time. Things have changed + though, these days Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping is an + obsolete statement +- Q: In light of that critique of JavaScript not being about the + language per se but rather the \"culture of blindly getting and + running packages/libraries\", what\'s so different with what\'s + currently done by the vast majority of Emacs/Elisp users to just + install packages blindly? + - A: Well, they know they\'re installing a package and that makes + all the difference. People could post various versions of a + package that people can look at and identify which to use or + whether one of them has horrible bugs. With JS there is no way + to do this, and most of these programs are not free. You don\'t + know which programs are being installed on your browser. These + things don\'t happen with elisp packages \-- at least not when + they\'re in reputable package archives.  +- Q: Do you think the freedom e.g., we have in Emacs, becomes a hurdle + for some people to pursue more important things in the world? I used + to do a lot of Emacs programming, but I recently try to stay away + from tinkering on Emacs. + - A: There may be more important things for you to do, but when + you look at all of the other distractions in the world it seems + unfair to criticize emacs. Look at video games which achieve + nothing but distraction. If you tinker with emacs code there is + a chance for you to discover something more important than how + to win a video game. + - Reply to Anwser: Sorry about the question. I do not intend + to criticize Emacs. It is more like a reflection on this + issue. The easiblity of jumping from anywhere in Emacs to + the source code, to the add-on packages, to the rich + documentation, to previous notes I have, becomes a strong + pulling force for me to do more important things. I often + found myself stay late in nights, and unable to have a good + sleep. Emacs gives me tremendous amount of freedom, I + definitely apprecitate it. On the other hand, I hate to stay + in non-free software, so I elimintate every possibility to + interact with them. This seems to be more effective to get + work done, since I only do the most important things, let it + go, and never thinking about the software. Don\'t get me + wrong, I agree with your point of view that the most + important thing GNU Emacs gives to the world is the freedom. + I  will do my part.  +- Q: Do you still intend to merge your patch to the \"shorthands\" + feature to the master branch? + - A: Yes, but some work on the docstrings is blocking it. s.el + references other s.el functions in its docstrings and we\'ll + want to alter the docstrings, too. A new docstring construct + could fix that. We\'ve added a lot alrady, one more would be + fine. +- Q: Question about software freedom: how does it apply to software + that are art/media experiences, like videogames? In your view, Is + the creator of a videogame obliged to release it under a free + license? + - A:  +- Q: And how would technologies like webassembly fit in with the + javascript issues? + - A: They don\'t change much. If the licensing situation is + handled the same way as with regular JS using LibreJS-recognized + license notices and complies with its license \[like, by + providing its sources\], it would be fine. +- Q: Have you seen Haketilo It looks + kinda like librejs? + - A: Haketilo is design to allow people to get some of the benefit + of free software. Potentially it offers a solution to the + javascript problem, but it has a long way to go. If you want to + do this, please do so.  +- Q: Is writing a free software replacement to Github Copilot with + proper license attribution a good idea? (like Mozilla Common Voice) + - A: Maybe but remember that copilot is not a program, it is a + service. It is a computation that someone else will do for you + when you ask. What are the practical problems with doing that? + Not sure. Of course the server operates by running programs, but + there is still a difference. People who use copilot don\'t get + any kind of copy of the program. They send it to the server. It + might be a good idea.  +- Q: Do you have any suggestions for helping propective contributers + streamline the copyright assignment needed to contribute to Emacs + (and other FSF software projects)?  If working for a large + corporation, simply navigating the internal beaucracy to find the + correct person/people to talk to who even understands what you\'re + talking about without a \"deer in the headlights look\" can be very + difficult.  This problem of gaining copyright assignment seems to be + a signifcant problem and ultimately splits people into two different + classifications, those who can contribute directly to FSF projects + (willing and able) and those who can\'t (willing but unable). + - A: The copyright assignment does not take long. The important + thing is the employer disclaimer. If your job entails + programming, we want to make sure that your employer does not + say, \"you\'ve got no right to contribute that program\" and the + project is shafted. We are working on some simplifications to + make it easier for companies to say yes to it, but fundamentally + we need them to say yes.  +- Q: What do you think of Hyperbole or EEV instead of org mode, or + other things for the stuff that org mode does \"second brain / + knowledge base\", or GTD \'getting things done\' etc\... among other + things in Emacs or other Emacs packages + - A: Well, I don\'t know that much about either of them. I don\'t + know EEV. I know Hyperbole, but it was many years ago. So I + can\'t have an educated opinion. Someone could study this, and + there would be a lot to study. If these are fairly similar\-- is + either actually part of emacs? A: \[Both are free software. \]  + - A: We might want to compare them to determine which is the best + possible add to emacs, but since I don\'t have specifics, I + don\'t want to state a priority preference. I don\'t have one.  +- Q: I thought it was a virtue to separate the content from the style + or appearance of information. Part of being free is also to view + information in the format that you want. Does your WYSIWYG idea + erode this virtue and lead to more thinking \-- perhaps undue + thinking about style over substance?  {seems like more freedom for + authors and less freedom for readers} (No the question is more about + the experience of creation.) + - A: I don\'t know actually. I know that in LibreOffice you can + make named styles, and you can change styles\... Is that enough? + I am hardly a power user.  +- Q: Do you ever dabble in retro-computing, e.g. logging into + TOPS10/20 systems SDF, etc?   + - A: No, I decided it\'s a waste of time. It\'s tinkering that + would not develop anything of any importance or use. And I know + if I\'m going to enjoy developing something\... I could enjoy + developing anything\... I decided not to distract my attention + from useful computing.  +- Q: Do you know Gemini ? (a + network of very simplified Markdown-like text files without images + and third-party content transmitted via an open/public/free protocol + which is not http(s)) If so, what do you think of it? (I\'m dreaming + of a Gemini-web with interlinked Org mode syntax files) + - A: I don\'t remember and have no opinion. The lack of images + will turn out to be a considerable drawback. The exclusion of + images would be a big loss.  +- Q: What is your opinion on the current state of large machine + learning/AI models? Even if the model is released under a free + license, it cannot be modified in a meaningful way without access to + vast quantities of training data, which isn\'t free. Even if it\'s + available, using the data requires datacenter-levels of computing + resources out of the reach of most users. + - A: I don\'t think that\'s true. You can modify it. You don\'t + need the previously used training data. The trained neural + network can be treated as source code. What else could it be?  +- Q: Are there plans to bring modal editing (eg. evil-mode, viper) to + emacs core and did your opinion on modal editing change over the + years? + - A: I don\'t have a wish for that. Now it\'s not somehow morally + anathema. It\'s not a non-free program. How to incorporate this + into existing Emacs without doing any violence to its code is + the question.  +- Q: Can complexity induced by company-funded free/libre code become a + problem, when the company pulls out, leaving the code potentially + unmaintainable? + - A: It's a matter of community, the same applies for software + developed by single individuals. Over-complicated programs + suffer more. +- Q:  Hi Richard, do you know about \[GNU + TeXmacs\]()? If so, why doesn\'t it fit your + idea of a way to write rich documents with emacs-like keyboard-based + interfaces? (referring to \"something like layout capabilities of + TeX and the editing capabilities of Emacs). + - A:  +- Comment: If you\'ve heard about attacks that others have been making + on me I refer you to stallmansupport.org. + + [[!inline pages="internal(2022/info/rms-after)" raw="yes"]] -- cgit v1.2.3