-okay so the first question is what is an -
-example of a car -
-a package currently in -
-a non-elpa repo that does not work well -
-with Emacs -
-well one of them is s dot el -
-and this is what made me aware that -
-there was an issue here that caused -
-problems well s.e.l -
-is a beautifully written package -
-that appears to be very useful for -
-people -
-and there's just one thing wrong with it -
-it gobbled up the name space -
-of symbols starting with s dash -
-and I was shocked to discover that -
-somebody who had not coordinated with -
-the Emacs developers at all -
-had implemented a package using such a -
-short prefix which -
-isn't the right way to do things oh by -
-the way the questions have moved off the -
-screen this is no good I can continue -
-answering this one -
-but I'll be stuck when this one is over -
-anyway so uh -
-and I was told that there was nothing I -
-could do about it -
-that so many users packages were using -
-swl and thus essentially using that -
-definition -
-of the s dash star symbols -
-that any attempt to use them -
-publicly or privately for anything else -
-would lead to horrible problems -
-and I don't like that -
-I decided I wanted to do something -
-a so that that wouldn't happen again -
-and b to make it unhappen -
-in that case well the way to make it -
-unhappen in that case is with a new -
-symbol renaming feature the idea is -
-you rename that file to something else -
-and then you define an s.e.l that -
-sets up symbol renaming and then loads -
-the something else -
-so it actually runs the same code it -
-just -
-doesn't globally define the symbols -
-s dash whatever but they -
-appear to work for the programs that -
-explicitly -
-require that require sdl -
-or the s package so this gets the same -
-behavior for all the programs that are -
-using that library -
-and uh doesn't interfere -
-with the global name space at all -
-however to do that we need to have a -
-package -
-s.e.l that isn't the same -
-totally a short file that's totally -
-different -
-plus we've got to have the file that -
-normally is called -
-s.e.l available but -
-uh under another name well -
-how are we going to do that we can't put -
-this into -
-into Emacs in a nice way that -
-won't make the uh won't make the -
-maintainer angry -
-of the mate to the developer of that -
-package -
-but we can do it with non-gnu -
-elpa we can put those two things into -
-non-gnu elpa -
-without any difficulty and this shows -
-one of the advantages -
-we can put files we can put packages -
-into non-gdu elpa -
-and make changes in them now in general -
-we wouldn't -
-go to the effort of making big changes -
-that's just too much to do -
-unless something's really important but -
-small changes -
-that help things fit in are -
-easy to do and -
-uh okay oh so basically the recording -
-didn't get anything until now I just saw -
-a note pop up this session is now being -
-recorded -
-I hope it's been recorded all along it -
-would be a shame to -
-spoil oh good okay -
-okay good so uh that's one of the issues -
-uh does non-gnu eopa already exist -
-or is this a sort of quote plan I don't -
-know why you have to -
-put scare quotes around the word plan -
-it's sort of in between -
-it's the creation of it is started you -
-will find -
-that there is an archive that it's -
-possible to download packages from -
-and there is a repository to put them in -
-but that's not the way it's really -
-supposed to work -
-uh this is not supposed to be like the -
-new elpa where there's -
-one repo for all the packages and thus -
-anyone who wants to edit any of them -
-anyone that we want to have edit any of -
-them -
-has got to have access to the whole -
-thing for one thing -
-some packages will make -
-an arrangement with the developers -
-and they'll assure us that they will -
-do things as things should be done and -
-then we'll -
-have their repo copied automatically -
-or in other cases say -
-copied manually with a little checking -
-every so often -
-uh and then uh in -
-other cases we'll need to have our own -
-repo for a particular package -
-but we shouldn't have a single repo for -
-all the packages we should have a repo -
-for each package -
-so that the people working on that can -
-get access to modify it -
-this has to be finished setting up -
-and we're still working out the -
-procedures -
-for instance for making the arrangements -
-with the developers of a package so that -
-we can -
-we hope uh entrust its development to -
-them and -
-rely on them directly -
-and there may be more that needs to be -
-worked on -
-oh there's so many questions -
-well I hope you the third question is -
-what are the benefits -
-I hope that people now see the benefits -
-I've described them -
-uh next question is it possible to work -
-with the melba team -
-to integrate that into Emacs -
-no because the goal doesn't make sense -
-melba the way it's done does not belong -
-inside Emacs in any sense well first of -
-all it can't literally be -
-inside Emacs we don't have copyright -
-assignments for that code -
-and to get it would be unfeasible -
-but we're not asking for copyright -
-assignments for -
-non-gnu elpa so that's -
-you might wonder could melpa be merged -
-with non-venue elpa the problem is -
-melpa doesn't modify the packages -
-it's just a place to find releases of -
-packages wherever they happen to be -
-and they put packages in with -
-only a little bit of checking -
-so no we there are a lot of packages -
-that are -
-in melpa that we'd like to get into -
-non-canoe elpa I don't know the names of -
-most of them but I expect most of them -
-would be fine to have but they've got to -
-be looked at one by one -
-there are some rules for non-glpa -
-and the only way to check them is to -
-check them on one package at a time -
-and that's going to take effort -
-now with the people who work on melba -
-want to get involved -
-of this that would be great -
-I haven't tried asking them first we've -
-got to get this thing -
-set up I doubt they would want to -
-but if they said yes that would be -
-wonderful -
-uh any thoughts of packages being -
-added I'm afraid -
-um -
-I'm afraid any thoughts of packages -
-being added as -
-some url I don't know anything about but -
-it talks about open source -
-which means I'm very unlikely to have -
-much -
-in common with whatever they say about -
-either licensing or -
-what's right and wrong uh -
-but this seems to be something about -
-disregarding licenses -
-altogether well that is basically -
-asking to lose there are reasons -
-why we developed gnu licenses to release -
-software why we have criteria -
-for which licenses make a program free -
-software -
-if the program doesn't carry a license -
-or if it carries a non-free license that -
-program -
-is not free software now you can -
-maybe get away with disregarding that -
-fact uh unless -
-somebody an author or publisher stops -
-you -
-but we're not going to take we're not -
-basically going to -
-disregard the question of whether the -
-software we -
-recommend to people really is free -
-software or not -
-that's basically uh -
-blindfolding yourself to the legal -
-situation of the software you're -
-distributing -
-it's a terrible idea uh if they -
-disregard our licenses they will hear -
-from us about it -
-and if you want to contribute to the -
-free world -
-put free licenses on your code -
-and choose good ones to get this -
-information -
-look at gnu.org slash licensing -
-in particular slash licenses -
-and one page that input that's important -
-is license -
-dash recommendations.html -
-that's where we advise you on what -
-license we would recommend you use -
-depending on the circumstances -
-there's also license dash list dot html -
-which describes a lot of licenses and -
-says which ones are free -
-which ones are compatible with the new -
-gpl -
-it's really important to use only gpl -
-compatible licenses -
-so that the various programs can be -
-combined together -
-or linked and -
-you can also get other information about -
-gnu licenses -
-and the reasons why they are written the -
-way they are -
-oh sorry I don't see the next question -
-oh why do I insist on using per and -
-purrs -
-uh I'm not happy with using -
-they which is a plural pronoun with a -
-singular antecedent -
-it's bad because it causes -
-confusion that is completely gratuitous -
-many sentences become a lot of work -
-to parse and understand if you -
-add that ambiguity that source of him of -
-regular ambiguity now -
-I do not accept the demands of other -
-people -
-in regard to changing my grammar -
-you can try to convince me but -
-no one is entitled to give me orders -
-about that -
-or state their desires and expect -
-obedience not for me and not from you -
-or anyone we are all -
-equally entitled to decide -
-how we will speak and how we won't speak -
-now I've spelled out all of these points -
-in a file called stolman.org -
-articles slash -
-genderneutrality.html -
-of course this is not a gnu project -
-policy -
-it's my own personal ideas on the -
-subject -
-if any of you feels offended -
-by my referring to you with a singular -
-gender neutral pronoun feel free -
-to ex contact me privately -
-and explain to me your reasons -
-I will pay attention to them I'll -
-think about them assuming that they're -
-not something I've already -
-considered and decided to dismiss before -
-but you must not speak to me as if I had -
-no business not obeying you because -
-that's -
-rude and it is not likely to convince me -
-to change my mind -
-I believe it is not actually -
-of stating offense to anyone -
-and the fact that somebody disagrees -
-with me does not mean I'm wrong -
-but I always can be wrong -
-when you wrote that you could add a -
-package to non your new elpa -
-are you implying that you would add -
-packages with or without package -
-maintainers knowledge -
-of course the packages we would -
-we would distribute in this way are free -
-software -
-everyone is entitled to redistribute -
-them -
-and everyone is also entitled to modify -
-them -
-and redistribute them that's part of the -
-meaning of free software -
-I have been unable to understand -
-how there came to be an idea -
-that those who redistribute packages -
-have some idea to be mere -
-some obligation to be near mirrors -
-and not modify things themselves -
-well if a package is -
-being maintained by developers who are -
-cooperating with us -
-we'll normally just leave it to them -
-after all -
-we have lots of other work to do they -
-are -
-clearly experts on the packages they've -
-developed -
-let's leave it to them if they make that -
-sort of arrangement with us but -
-that's up to them we can't insist that -
-anyone make an arrangement with us -
-but since those programs are free -
-software anyone c is -
-free to redistribute them and we will do -
-that -
-have you ever used vi or vim or -
-evil mode no -
-are there any plans to implement -
-security considerations in non-gnu -
-elpa uh we probably -
-should and this will have to be -
-implemented -
-but at the moment -
-developer Emacs maintainers will copy -
-packages -
-into it and so as long as they are -
-verifying the packages and getting the -
-packages from the right place -
-that will take care of the security once -
-there is -
-when with automatic copying in -
-will have to do something to -
-make sure that we're fetching the -
-packages securely -
-and uh some of you might be interested -
-in -
-helping to design and implement this -
-system -
-uh what distro do I use -
-uh well which distro of gnu slash linux -
-do I use -
-I use tree scale -
-I haven't tried most of the free distros -
-and the reason is it's not crucial that -
-I do so -
-we don't need me to rate the various -
-free distros on -
-practical questions because anyone can -
-do that as well as I can -
-and so you can tell people what -
-you think of using them for me what's -
-important to me -
-is to inform people of the difference -
-between the free distros -
-and the non-free distros making sure -
-people are aware that if you -
-install a non-free gnu slash linux -
-distro you'll get a free operating -
-system with -
-non-free stuff in various quantities -
-added thus you will not reach freedom -
-although you you'll make a lot of -
-progress compared -
-with using for instance windows or -
-mac os or whatever vicious thing it -
-might be -
-I'd like to I'd like to people to be -
-aware -
-of this next step towards -
-getting freedom for yourself and your -
-own computing -
-so that you can do that if you want to -
-uh -
-so who gets to make the final decision -
-regarding -
-non-gnu elpa the -
-emax maintainers are going to be in -
-charge of this -
-but because it's not -
-just a technical decision it has with -
-only technical consequences -
-but in general unless there's some -
-severe problem with the package we will -
-want to put it in -
-and I expect most packages won't have a -
-problem -
-and we can just put them in when we get -
-to them -
-won't the elpa link to non-free sites -
-like github -
-uh it's a mistake to talk about a -
-non-free site -
-because a site is not a program -
-a program is either free or non-free and -
-we have -
-clearly stated criteria for that in -
-gnu.org philosophy slash -
-free dash sw.html we have the free -
-software definition -
-but a site well their programs on it -
-but it doesn't make sense to ask whether -
-the site is -
-free or not it's too simplistic a -
-question -
-to have a meaningful answer now one -
-thing you can ask about is does the site -
-send javascript to the user's machine -
-to the user's browser and if so is that -
-javascript -
-non-free well github -
-does send non-free javascript for some -
-operations -
-so we consider it unsatisfactory as a -
-repository -
-but uh that doesn't mean linking to it -
-for is a bad thing to do regardless of -
-what the purpose is -
-for instance if the purpose is to refer -
-to some things -
-that you can access without running the -
-non-free javascript -
-then it's okay for that purpose -
-so if now that you understand the -
-details of this issue -
-you think that there is a problem with -
-the -
-link to camel there's -
-sorry a link in camel dot html -
-well report it to -
-uh bug gnu emax reported as an Emacs bug -
-but do think about the criteria I've -
-just said because maybe it's not a -
-problem -
-is it okay to use the gnu of pharaoh gpl -
-for emax packages -
-yes it is -
-uh which is your favorite programming -
-language -
-if lisp which variant -
-well I don't exactly have a -
-favorite variant but -
-when I designed Emacs lisp I -
-did the best thing I could think of at -
-the time -
-subject to the need to keep it small -
-for the first few years it was important -
-for gdu Emacs -
-to run in a machine which could only -
-give it half -
-a meg of user space -
-so there are a lot of constructs that -
-clearly were desirable to include -
-that I left out because we could -
-make it work without them -
-and then a lot of those have been added -
-since because -
-it's been a long time since we needed to -
-keep Emacs so rigorously small -
-um someone is -
-asking about the -
-fsf's repository project well -
-we agreed that there would be another -
-virtual machine -
-running one of those for the gnu project -
-but that's as far as the discussion went -
-question 17 is extremely insulting -
-I have not engaged in sexual harassment -
-don't expect me to plead guilty to such -
-a -
-nasty claim -
-people have been accusing me of many -
-things -
-some of which are -
-basically mole hills and some of which -
-are false so -
-uh I'm not going to give them -
-anything I have been bullied in a -
-horrible way -
-that was wrong -
-I would like the bullies to apologize to -
-me -
-and when I see that they're not bullying -
-I will forgive them -
-I would like to have conversations with -
-them if any of the mole hills -
-annoyed someone I'm happy to talk -
-with her and thus -
-uh help help resolve things with peace -
-and my opinion on -
-quote diversity within -
-Emacs well Emacs is -
-never going to be diverse it is extended -
-in -
-one language Emacs lisp -
-well I don't know uh we did have an idea -
-of implementing extensibility using -
-scheme and the hope was that guile -
-could be integrated with Emacs that -
-turned out to be difficult it may be -
-impossible but in principle -
-it might be a good thing that would be a -
-small amount of diversity -
-but it's not that important -
-what I think is really important for -
-developing Emacs -
-is to make it do word processing -
-I sometimes use libra office -
-and yeah I can make it do things -
-it has features for wysiwyg which are -
-very nice -
-but it's in other regards -
-it's not Emacs and it doesn't have the -
-abilities of Emacs -
-and it should -
-so I urge people to work on extending -
-Emacs -
-in that direction adding the features -
-that a word processor has to have -
-the last question I can answer is -
-18 but yes it's a very sad thing -
-how many companies -
-insist on using non-free software -
-well I would get a different kind of job -
-that's a decision I made many years ago -
-early in the gnu project -
-I decided I would not first I would not -
-get a job developing non-free software -
-and later on I decided -
-once I could stop using non-free -
-software that is once we had -
-a gnu slash linux system that we could -
-switch over to and uh -
-oh wait I thought I thought magic wand -
-time meant it was time to stop -
-but now I rather ask the question -
-uh -
-so what do you do well if I were you -
-I'd probably not work for any of those -
-companies -
-if I needed to make money I'd get a job -
-but I get some -
-other kind of job -
-that didn't involve using software -
-I would or that let me choose the -
-software I would use -
-but I would live cheaply you know the -
-less you spend -
-the less you need to make and the more -
-time -
-you can take away from your paid work -
-and the more flexibility you have in -
-which paid work -
-you can do being in a position -
-to say no to avoid being -
-desperate to say yes -
-uh strengthens your position -
-and you need that one way you can help -
-do that is by -
-not having children now that is a -
-tangent but it can't be denied that -
-raising children is very expensive I -
-have heard -
-many people say that they are -
-uncomfortable with their jobs -
-but they have to do those jobs to make -
-enough money -
-to support their children -
-well think about that be aware -
-that's likely to happen to you before -
-you make that decision -
-what would I -
-what would I change about free software -
-well since this is -
-magic I would magically find -
-a way of showing everyone why -
-most free software needs to be copy -
-lifted -
-so that our community would not -
-basically -
-submit to abuse by proprietary software -
-developers -
-of course I could go further if I could -
-magically recruit a hundred thousand -
-good programmers to do lots of work -
-improving free software -
-we might well if we could do this 20 -
-years ago we might have wiped out -
-non-free systems and then we wouldn't -
-have had -
-horrible things like -
-world wide web drm that -
-no one has the courage to resist -
-if they're desperately trying to get -
-money for anything -
-and if they need approval of companies -
-of the big companies that push for drm -
-uh then they don't dare even resist as -
-much as they can resist -
-and look what happened to the world wide -
-web consortium -
-uh they surrendered blatantly -
-and ignominiously by -
-endorsing the drm system -
-so what can you do I don't have a magic -
-wand -
-I'm a human being with the capabilities -
-I have -
-but the advantage of -
-great firmness in campaigning for free -
-software -
-and this enables me to do things -
-that no one else will do -
-what tools from pre unix days do you -
-miss -
-well I don't I don't think about them -
-with -
-missing them actually but -
-it was sort of nice to have -
-ddt as your login shell -
-so in using modern terminology -
-because that meant at any time you could -
-stop a program lotus debugging symbols -
-and start examining the data in the -
-instructions -
-you could debug it that way and then you -
-could even -
-patch in instructions to continue -
-running that job with the bug fixed -
-in fact you could even do this with the -
-system kernel -
-so that your jobs wouldn't get lost I -
-did that -
-quite a few times of course sometimes I -
-saw what was wrong and I just had to -
-fix a piece of data but sometimes -
-it took me a long time to figure out how -
-to get the system to -
-keep on going but with the work I had -
-done -
-I didn't want to lose that work -
-and so one of the first features I put -
-into gdu Emacs was -
-auto save -
-uh I'm not going to try to figure out -
-which packages I re I actually used -
-uh if I knew I would get hit by a bus -
-tomorrow -
-uh say because of a fortune teller -
-no a fortune teller doesn't give you any -
-knowledge it's just -
-superstitious uh hand waving -
-so assuming that I -
-talked that I got a reading from a -
-fortune teller which is -
-implausible enough to begin with uh -
-that wouldn't give me any knowledge -
-about what was going to happen to me -
-oh by the way fortune tellers generally -
-play back to you facts that they've -
-discovered about you -
-together with cold reading which means -
-they say things calculated to make it -
-appear that they know -
-more than they do or things that are -
-uh that sound wise to anyone -
-so you can say the same thing to -
-uh say 100 people -
-and 80 or 90 of them will say boy that -
-was really accurate -
-but what if for some reason -
-uh about -
-what what advice would I give for -
-stewardship of -
-Emacs well basically -
-focus on -
-keeping the community strong in -
-defending -
-freedom if you have a choice between -
-keeping the community strong in -
-defending freedom -
-and getting more people to participate -
-in the development -
-you've got to choose the freedom it is -
-very -
-easy for free software projects to -
-subordinate freedom to other criteria -
-and once that happens it's -
-easy for those who don't care much about -
-freedom -
-such as sometimes companies that might -
-offer you some money -
-to purchase your soul -
-not that there are really things that -
-exist called souls it's a metaphor but -
-it's an important metaphor for something -
-important -
-people in the community have to be -
-thinking about freedom -
-when they make decisions about what is -
-wise to do -
-the decision to devel to set up non-glpa -
-has a drawback it was a compromise now a -
-lot of people will -
-tell you that I am uncompromising and -
-say that that's a flaw -
-well they're wrong I make little -
-compromises -
-very often and occasionally I make a -
-medium-sized compromise -
-the compromise is in the past we wanted -
-to get -
-copyright assignments for the packages -
-in gnu -
-elpa so that we could move them into -
-core Emacs and of course sometimes we -
-move packages in the other direction -
-that way we are where we distribute a -
-given package -
-is something we can decide purely -
-technically -
-and however make insisting on getting -
-copyright assignments for all the -
-packages in gnu elpa -
-meant that we had to say sorry no -
-we will not install that packages in -
-packaging dewey lpa unless the -
-authors sign copyright assignments and -
-sometimes that's a lot of trouble -
-well non-glpa -
-won't require copyright assignments if -
-there's a free package -
-we can make whatever changes presumably -
-small otherwise we would probably say -
-we don't have time but and then -
-put it in but it does have the drawback -
-that -
-we in general we won't be able to move -
-those packages -
-into core Emacs without -
-getting the legal papers then that we -
-didn't get before -
-how do you see the future of gdu Emacs -
-uh I don't see the future -
-I used to say that my crystal ball is -
-cloudy today -
-unfortunately that has another -
-meaning which is quite ironic uh we -
-certainly don't want -
-our lives to be -
-somewhere in a cloud because -
-that clouds your mind and then people -
-start -
-cheating you and taking advantage of you -
-and it's horrible -
-but uh I don't see the future I just -
-can be sure from the past that there -
-will be -
-challenges where some of the people -
-involved want to make a big compromise -
-that isn't worth it -
-and they some they may even get the -
-impression that it's -
-up to them well actually -
-Emacs has appointed maintainers just as -
-every gdu package does and they are the -
-ones in charge of developing that -
-package -
-and this is for a good reason -
-because the appointed maintainers take -
-responsibility -
-to carry out the gnu project policies -
-and most important of all -
-are the ones that make the whole system -
-work together -
-and the ethical standards -
-to respect freedom and defend freedom -
-is there any plan to move more packages -
-from core Emacs into elpa -
-uh I don't know uh -
-whether there is a plan I suppose if -
-there's a plan -
-we probably would have done it if there -
-had been a plan -
-some have been moved I don't see this as -
-a -
-fundamentally important issue it's a -
-matter of what's convenient for -
-the users and their advantages and -
-disadvantages to each choice -
-what is your opinion on higher education -
-uh requiring non-free software for -
-instance -
-well I wouldn't I wouldn't -
-matriculate in a school which did that -
-unless I saw a way I could refuse -
-now of course I do this -
-because I can get away with it and -
-therefore my doing it is extremely -
-important to show somebody does resist -
-I don't expect most people who support -
-free school -
-who advocate free software to go that -
-far -
-uh I published an article in the spring -
-entitled saying no even once -
-is helping saying no to non-free -
-software -
-even once because -
-the more you do it the more you help but -
-even doing it a little in a way that -
-other people notice -
-is starting to help so -
-uh please don't think that your choices -
-are either -
-be as firm and stubborn as I am -
-or just give up and let yourself drift -
-helplessly as if you had no volition -
-there are a lot of points in between -
-there and you can surely -
-manage to say no some of the time -
-and show people an example of saying no -
-some of the time for instance you could -
-say to people -
-you know I hate the fact that my school -
-makes me -
-use zoom uh so whenever -
-I'm not being forced I'm not going to -
-use it -
-or I hate the fact that the only way I -
-can talk to that group of people -
-is resume but when -
-but for anything else I will feel better -
-about myself if I don't -
-see lots of ways to say no some of the -
-time -
-and yield some of the time -
-and when you try saying no occasionally -
-you may just develop the ability to say -
-no more often -
-now whether you would ever get to be as -
-stubborn as I am -
-I don't know but what I find is that -
-I like the fact that I've never made -
-this kind of compromise -
-I feel I have a reputation to maintain -
-nobody's forcing me but I get -
-satisfaction -
-out of maintaining out of being able to -
-continue to say -
-I will not -
-you are now unmuted and that also -
-can happen at various different levels -
-so you can get that satisfaction -
-of fully maintaining a refusal -
-that applies only to certain areas -
-citizens uh noon already let's maybe -
-take one or two more questions and then -
-break for -
-the lunch break okay thank you -
-how often do you personally use Emacs as -
-the -
-lowest question now uh -
-well I use it most of the day -
-I occasionally do use other things in -
-fact I occasionally edit with -
-libreoffice -
-I occasionally use media players I -
-occasionally -
-uh -
-I occasionally ssh to a machine and type -
-some commands on it -
-which occasionally includes running -
-Emacs on it -
-I read pdf files a lot -
-would be nice if you could get those -
-into Emacs so that I could read them -
-with Emacs commands -
-and I maybe even edit them with the max -
-commands -
-when they can be edited I use -
-uh journal sometimes -
-to write on a pdf file -
-are there any more interesting projects -
-you have in mind over and above -
-non-gnu elpa uh -
-I can't think of one right now well -
-there are things there are things that -
-the gnu project needs -
-doing there are packages that don't have -
-maintainers or could use -
-more maintainers uh -
-talk with maintainers at canoe.org -
-and the assistant candusences will -
-help you find a package where you can do -
-good -
-not for beginners though you got to get -
-you got to learn -
-uh a substantive substantial level of -
-capacity to develop and debug programs -
-before you can -
-be a maintainer uh have I ever looked at -
-maggot -
-uh no I haven't -
-but I believe -
-work is being done to get it put into -
-Emacs -
-and at that point I'll give it a try -
-I do not want to share my configuration -
-files -
-they're personal but -
-how about if we end this now -
-you are now unmuted sounds good to me -
-thank you very much richard for joining -
-in for live questions -
-okay -- cgit v1.2.3