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diff --git a/2025/talks/juicemacs.md b/2025/talks/juicemacs.md index d724ad33..1a5f8c79 100644 --- a/2025/talks/juicemacs.md +++ b/2025/talks/juicemacs.md @@ -66,6 +66,103 @@ during the journey, including how three interpreters out of four (or more?) in Emacs are implemented in Juicemacs and how speculative compilation can make some optimizations possible. +## Discussion / notes + +- Q: Sorry for the explain-for-CL-user question - is what juicemacs is + doing analogous to issuing a new declamation then doing something + like (funcall (eval (function-lambda-expression + #'my-sbcl-function))) ? + - - (Thanks I had been confused about JIT a little bit) + + - A: I actually know very little about CL (the benchmarks come + from an article linked in elisp-benchmarks). Personally I think + the difference between Juicemacs and CL impl like SBCL, is that, + most CL runtimes I know actually ahead-of-time compiles code, + even in REPL, but Juicemacs is a JIT runtime and tries to gather + statistics before compiling things (mostly through Truffle). For + function calls, Juicemacs has several optimizations, like + assuming unchanged function definitions (and recompile when it + changes), and cache functions produced by `#'(lambda () + ...)` constructs. +- Q: What's the inspiration behind the name Juicemacs? + - A: Since it is in Java, so I want the name to begin with 'J'. + Since juice is humorously not solid, I chose that name :) +- Q: Do you think the GC of Juicemacs will have similarities with the + GC iterations of GNU Emacs (such as IGC)? + - A: I am very much looking forward to IGC but haven't tried it + yet. The difference between IGC (using MPS under the hood) and + JVM GCs is that the MPS used by Emacs is conservative (GC term) + and not "precise" (also GC term), in that it guesses what + machine words on the stack are actual objects, but otherwise it + should be a very competent GC. +- Q: Just reading the blog - your experiments with Emacs are so + extensive :D how'd you get started? Have you experience writing + text editors? + - A: Thanks! Currently, Juicemacs is mostly about an ELisp runtime + though and has very little actual "text editor" things. (It + has proper elisp buffers, but not display in any way - no + GUI/TUI). And with a functional elisp runtime, an actual editor + can (1) be fairly easy if you ignore a bunch of things mentioned + in the blog, (2) or very very hard if you want to replicate + Emacs. And, sadly, no, I don't have experience previously + writing text editors, so my current plan is to delegate + rendering to GTK (and Pango for low-level rendering to support + overlays) (and other programmers by using a proper IPC protocol + :-) ), and delegate editing to ELisp (which is also what Emacs + does). + - For getting started, I don't know? I've already started + experimenting with a bit more things. Basically it is all about + replicating and learning from other implementations, like Emacs + and GtkTextView (and GraalJs for JIT compilers) (oh! and VS + Code, I just borrowed their intervalTree.ts for overlays): it's + all there, written by competent people. And all you need is + maybe read them all? ;P (Experimenting with Emacs and learning + about it (and crashing it sometimes) is very fun, by the way.) + - Here is a little devlog: + [https://juice.zulipchat.com/#narrow/channel/535506-gui/topic/Tiny.20progress.3A.20GUI.20dev.20log/with/562157361](https://juice.zulipchat.com/#narrow/channel/535506-gui/topic/Tiny.20progress.3A.20GUI.20dev.20log/with/562157361) + , in which I am trying to get a GUI (and after that maybe an + editor) working. + - (original question-asker) -> So: read read read, smash smash + smash. Love it :D and zulip is a nice idea for organising public + engagement with a project, looks v cool. Thanks for sharing! +- Q: <emarsden> GraalVM is able to run C code via LLVM; I wonder + whether it would be feasible to use some of the existing Emacs code + in that way + - A: (Came across this interesting question on #emacs IRC.) + Actually, Java has added FFI (or "Foreign Function and Memory, + FFM) API very recently, so we can directly run (dynamically + linked) C code without needing LLVM or GraalVM in Java. However, + the thing I'm afraid of is that, Emacs is very complicated, and + it seems rather impossible to just use "some" of its existing + code without incorporating a whole GNU Emacs... (For example, + even passing a cons list from Java to C code is very hard, since + we need to now care about ABI compatibility. Not to mention that + in many places Emacs just assumes it is run with its built-in + GC.) But, speaking of FFM, I think we can make very good use of + it to support Emacs dynamic modules (right now I'm also + listening to the Emacs PDF reader talk, which is also a dynamic + module). As far as I know, the API interface of Emacs dynamic + modules is very clearly decoupled from Emacs internals (when + reading /usr/include/emacs-module.h, which seems to make its + `struct emacs_value` opaque, meaning that we can use any + pointer, or even Java object references in that pointer), and we + should be able to support any dynamic modules out there with + FFM. +- [https://codeberg.org/gudzpoz/Juicemacs](https://codeberg.org/gudzpoz/Juicemacs) +- The blog article is now online: + [https://kyo.iroiro.party/en/posts/juicemacs-exploring-jit-for-elisp/](https://kyo.iroiro.party/en/posts/juicemacs-exploring-jit-for-elisp/) +- Wonderful explanations! Thank you for taking the time to share your + wisdom. +- A very impressive project! Thanks for presenting it +- [https://juice.zulipchat.com](https://juice.zulipchat.com) +- Very exciting project! + +- yet another exciting emacs clone lets goo!! +- I really want to end up with a formal specification of emacs lisp one day +- juicemacs elisp is suprisingly far along +- your jit compiled elisp is impressive +- Thanks, I know a little more about JIT now ! +- Kana here! Thanks! Please feel free to ask any question. I'm also trying out a Zulip chat server for maybe lengthier discussions: https://juice.zulipchat.com . [[!inline pages="internal(2025/info/juicemacs-after)" raw="yes"]] |