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diff --git a/2024/talks/org-update.md b/2024/talks/org-update.md index 6141f4f0..4406b3bc 100644 --- a/2024/talks/org-update.md +++ b/2024/talks/org-update.md @@ -1,5 +1,5 @@ [[!meta title="Updates on Org Mode maintenance"]] -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2024 Ihor Radchenko and Bastien Guerry"]] +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2024 Ihor Radchenko"]] [[!inline pages="internal(2024/info/org-update-nav)" raw="yes"]] <!-- Initially generated with emacsconf-publish-talk-page and then left alone for manual editing --> @@ -7,13 +7,181 @@ # The Future of Org -Ihor Radchenko and Bastien Guerry +Ihor Radchenko [[!inline pages="internal(2024/info/org-update-before)" raw="yes"]] +# Discussion +## Questions and answers + +- Q:<\_viz\> Q: Is the track-changes item about the org-element + parser? \[10:34\] + - A:Yes + - <Ihor\> Moreover, track-changes has been developed with my + input specifically aimed to make sure that it can support + org-element use case. See + [https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi](https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi) + /bugreport.cgi?bug=70077 +- Q: Could you please keep IRC alive? I prefer it to Matrix. Thx. + - A: I am mostly live on IRC from mobile (via Revolution IRC) and + should be able to see most of the messages. Except when my + mobile phone does not have good internet connection or is + discharged + - I got a suggestion to use chat.sr.ht as a bouncer. I will look + into it to make the connection more reliable. (It is not bad + now, but I do miss messages once in a while). +- Q: Is there any plan for adding support for other modalities of + notes like handwritten, audio, etc.? Would that be interesting to + the community? It will definitely be useful for me. + - A: Might want to look into jkitchin's repos (possibly via + tesseract) + - tesseract + image paste: + [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGGAr1AWkTc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGGAr1AWkTc) + - John Kitchin \[Youtube\] (2021) scimax - #drawing + screenshot, tesseract, pngpaste and ox-clip + - For audio, I do not know much. My bookmarks contain a couple + of possibly related items: + - [https://git.sr.ht/\~lxsameer/orion](https://git.sr.ht/~lxsameer/orion) + - [https://github.com/rksm/org-ai?tab=readme-ov-file#setting-up-speech-input\--output](https://github.com/rksm/org-ai?tab=readme-ov-file#setting-up-speech-input--output) + - You can use attachment and images to paste. + + - <Ihor\> In terms of actually adding support for hadwritten + notes/audio, it is not 100% clear what that support would + consitute. Tooling to convert images/sound to text would + probably not be appropriate for Org mode. It would be better + done as a separate package(s). Then, using such tooling could be + supported, but again, it is not clear what such a support would + constitute. + + - "Would that be interesting to the community?" Go and ask ;) + Just write about your idea in details to the mailing list and + you will get feedback. What I can tell is that this topic does + not surface frequently as far as I am aware. + +- Q: I spent some time writing a library for myself which involved + working with org files. One thing I struggled with was finding a + good source of reference code which demonstrated idiomatic usage. Is + there/could there be a resource with which to recommend particularly + well written codebases for review by others? + - A: Ideally, Org codebase should be such a place. Unfortunately, + not every part of Org is a good reference for others (I hope to + keep pushing for improvements). + - Decent references could be ox.el, many ob-\* backends, and + ox-\* backends. But I cannot suggest something definite + without knowing what exactly you tried to do. There are many + APIs in Org mode. + - What might be useful is + [https://orgmode.org/manual/Hacking.html](https://orgmode.org/manual/Hacking.html) + and + [https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/index.html](https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/index.html) + - Maybe also + [https://alphapapa.github.io/org-almanac/#development](https://alphapapa.github.io/org-almanac/#development) + +- Q: WRT IETF standardization, have you looked at Karl Voit's OrgDown? + - A: Lot of pushback to this idea on the mailing-list. + - A large part of it was about naming + - Some links: + - [https://list.orgmode.org/2021-11-28T20-44-37@devnull.Karl-Voit.at/](https://list.orgmode.org/2021-11-28T20-44-37@devnull.Karl-Voit.at/) + - My followup: + [https://list.orgmode.org/87tufnbj1w.fsf@localhost/](https://list.orgmode.org/87tufnbj1w.fsf@localhost/) + - Despite pushback, Karl's idea did align with our IETF idea + and with one of the point I make in the presentation about + making life easier for non-Emacs apps. + - See + [https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/2022-10-17T22-36-38@devnull.Karl-Voit.at/](https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/2022-10-17T22-36-38@devnull.Karl-Voit.at/) + - I will quote Bastien here: + - [https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/87fsfl7g01.fsf@bzg.fr/](https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/87fsfl7g01.fsf@bzg.fr/) + - What occurred to me while rereading this thread is + that definining a + - syntax for a IETF RFC on an Org mimetype probably + needs to be done not + - just by this Emacs Org-mode community, but by + bringing together other + - "consumers" of .org files, from ecosystems outside + of Emacs. + - Such a collective work could lead to define what + subset of the Org + - syntax is useful as the corner-stone for .org files + everywhere - which + - is what you rightfully brought up with "Orgdown". + - If successful, such a process could end up in + defining the minimal and + - official "Org syntax" while allowing + implementations (like the one for + - Emacs org-mode) to supercharge this syntax if deemed + useful. + - Perhaps TEC is right and we will end up having the + minimal syntax + - being the one we currently use for Org-mode: we'll + see. +- Q: About a year ago we discussed switching GNU documentation from texinfo to org. Do you still consider this? + - A: We don't want to complicate org syntax to adjust to the + texinfo markup. + - ...But we want to keep org's syntax generic so that it can be + customized to support the necessary Texinfo constructs + - I detailed my vision in + [https://list.orgmode.org/875xwqj4tl.fsf@localhost/](https://list.orgmode.org/875xwqj4tl.fsf@localhost/) + - apart from Texinfo parity, the idea is to help + addressing various syntax edge cases by providing + aliases to the existing markup elements + +## Notes + +- Nice to see mobile apps actively being considered when talking about org :D +- Transient integration in org will be a very welcome improvement! Being able to save the + transient state on org-export would be very nice indeed +- fun fact: Transient did take some inspiration from Org's menus + - tarsius: Oh, I did not know this! + - From which menus exactly, those implemented by Nicolas + for the exporter? + - Not any specific menus but the "dim unreachable + commands, when the user typed an incomplete key sequence" + feature. +- love to hear how folks in emacs real approach + project development as social endeavors to a significant degree +- Another mobile app that understands org-markdown is + ZettelNotes + ([https://znotes.thedoc.eu.org/](https://znotes.thedoc.eu.org/)) + - It is not the only one missed. For a reason. I did not + find source code. + - Ah ok, that is fair. +- <jaafar\>There is a Ruby parser too, in the Guthub renderer + - Right. It is also listed at + [https://orgmode.org/tools.html](https://orgmode.org/tools.html) + (alongside with Pandoc) +- As an org user but someone who is not familiar with + development (and has no context on org's direction before Ihor's stewardship), I'm really excited about the priorities being expressed in this talk :) Thanks + \[10:47\] +- another great (and absolute core to me) app with org-mode + support (respectively org files are at the core of it) for iOS + devices is: beorg + [https://www.beorgapp.com/](https://www.beorgapp.com/) + - the dev is responsive and open for feedback/feature requests, from my experience so far. i'm still "a noob", but org-mode, emacs and beorg allow me to structure my workflows/needs and to get rid of possibly many other apps/software. + - The list of iOS-native apps are still quite small with varying quality. So far, I'm quite happy with beorg. Tried out other too (1-2 i may be missing, maybe considering buying them, even if it's just a small contribution to Emacs/orgmode as community as such). as far as the libre aspect. true, but i have to be pragmatic at some point, and firstly i want to be productive/efficient/effective. As long as it's a sole dev / community-inspired thing, and not a big corporate raider, i'm fine with non-libre software, if the standards are kept and no proprietary overhead stuff is modifying the core of org-mode (in this example for example). +- Really encouraging stuff, thanks :D +- Thank you yantar92\` +- Thank you for this wonderful talk! +- We appreciate all the work being done +- really enjoying this talk as a long time user who hasn't + ever really thought about how org mode gets developed (much less + contributed) +- For audio transcription, I use Speech Note (offline) and copy the + text to orgmode +- It's great to see Carsten, Bastien and Ihor together. I run my life + with orgmode, so we owe you guys a lot :) +- I think a huge part of Org Mode is workflow, and that's + both highly individual and highly social - we learn about what's + possible by hearing about how other people do things +- Thank you for taking over org! I use it every day and I'm happy to see that org's future is in good hands. +- YouTube comments: + - Congratulations! I'm super excited for the things to come, especially about mobile apps not being an afterthought anymore. Also looking forward to the transition to transient menus! + - That was a great talk. Thank you for bringing all that information together and thank you for your work on org-mode. I use it every day and it's good to see it's still in active and constructive development. I particularly like the focus on the standard and parsers to define the format and clean up code bases both in org-mode and beyond. + - As someone who has just started using org mode, it's really reassuring to see that someone with such a well thought through, comprehensive, specific, detailed, and balanced vision of the future of org is taking the helm! May your bugs always be shallow and your users grateful <3 + - I've been using org-mode for over a decade now, and can't imagine life without it. So welcome aboard, Ihor, may org-mode continue to prosper with you as Maintainer! + [[!inline pages="internal(2024/info/org-update-after)" raw="yes"]] [[!inline pages="internal(2024/info/org-update-nav)" raw="yes"]] |