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diff --git a/2024/info/casual-after.md b/2024/info/casual-after.md index 24d64e34..7095221f 100644 --- a/2024/info/casual-after.md +++ b/2024/info/casual-after.md @@ -266,7 +266,321 @@ Captioner: sachac -Questions or comments? Please e-mail [emacsconf-org-private@gnu.org](mailto:emacsconf-org-private@gnu.org?subject=Comment%20for%20EmacsConf%202023%20casual%3A%20Re-imagining%20the%20Emacs%20user%20experience%20with%20Casual%20Suite) +<div class="transcript transcript-qanda"><a name="casual-qanda-transcript"></a><h1>Q&A transcript (unedited)</h1> + +[[!template text="""Leo? I'm doing well as well and I'm so happy to have seen your""" start="00:00:00.000" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""talk because the interaction with Emacs is always""" start="00:00:05.240" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""something that I find very interesting, and stuff like""" start="00:00:10.720" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Transient, stuff like Hydra before, I think they really""" start="00:00:13.720" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""improve the user experience of users, and I'm really glad""" start="00:00:18.840" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that I've seen you talk. Perhaps just starting with the""" start="00:00:22.120" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""first question, do you have anything else that you'd like to""" start="00:00:24.480" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""add on your talk? Because we are pretty stringent with the""" start="00:00:27.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""amount of time that we give for talks, but is there anything""" start="00:00:30.720" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that you would have liked to mention to people that you""" start="00:00:33.200" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""weren't able to fit into the talk? I think probably one of the""" start="00:00:35.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""design considerations I've done is that many of the""" start="00:00:42.720" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""commands that I've exposed through my casual interfaces""" start="00:00:46.600" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""have been in Emacs. They've been in there forever, but very""" start="00:00:49.360" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""few people uh, myself included really know that they're""" start="00:00:56.400" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""there, uh, because they're just not discoverable through,""" start="00:01:00.440" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""uh, basically the existing mechanisms, you know, prior to""" start="00:01:06.000" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""transient and which key to, to even know that those, those""" start="00:01:09.560" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""functions are there. Yeah. So I think I'm going to start""" start="00:01:13.480" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""asking you questions whilst people start writing them in a""" start="00:01:19.400" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""pad. But yeah, I also think that discoverability is a very""" start="00:01:21.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""huge point that having stuff like the stuff that you've""" start="00:01:25.760" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""showed today actually allows. One example that I'd like to""" start="00:01:29.560" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""give that many people tend to forget, and you've already""" start="00:01:32.680" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""mentioned it in your presentation, is that I've learned so""" start="00:01:35.760" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""much about using git in general thanks to maggots for the""" start="00:01:39.560" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""reason that it shows you so many options that you might not be""" start="00:01:43.480" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""aware of for instance like i like to really think about when""" start="00:01:46.720" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you think about logging in git maggots allows you to""" start="00:01:50.800" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""discover so many of the finer options like oh I only want to""" start="00:01:54.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""see the first comet since the merge or oh I only want to""" start="00:01:58.120" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""consider this subsection of comets going from master or""" start="00:02:01.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""main to the point of your branch. So many things like this""" start="00:02:06.000" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that you get to discover thanks to Transient. So do you have""" start="00:02:09.000" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""any similar experience on your end? Uh, oh yeah, uh, far too""" start="00:02:11.760" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""many. Uh, I think, uh, particularly with EditKit, uh, you""" start="00:02:16.880" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""know, having access to these commands, uh, um,""" start="00:02:22.360" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""particularly with different granularity on, like, uh, S""" start="00:02:28.280" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""expressions, sentences, words, uh, probably the most""" start="00:02:31.960" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""surprising thing I found was just how How compelling the S""" start="00:02:37.320" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""expression would be as a unit of text for working with. I""" start="00:02:43.360" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""found that in most contexts, or in many places, it did what I""" start="00:02:49.160" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""wanted. I found that to be very surprising.""" start="00:02:54.880" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So unless you've got anything else to add, I think we can just""" start="00:03:02.720" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""jump into questions. Okay, certainly. I'll be reading them""" start="00:03:06.160" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""for you so that it's easier for you. So the first question is,""" start="00:03:10.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I wonder whether casual can only be used with the packages""" start="00:03:13.600" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you mentioned or whether it can be used with whatever""" start="00:03:17.600" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""packages you like. I think it's really the latter. I'm not""" start="00:03:19.600" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""quite sure what the... What the question was really""" start="00:03:25.400" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""pointing at, you know, is the question asking for why I chose""" start="00:03:29.880" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""the packages or the different modes that I did? Or is it, are""" start="00:03:35.040" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""they looking at it from a developer perspective of, can we""" start="00:03:41.680" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""integrate casual with other packages? I mean, since we've""" start="00:03:45.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""got a little bit of time ahead of us, feel free to answer both""" start="00:03:50.400" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""questions. Um, I think the answer is, uh. Well, for the 1st,""" start="00:03:52.840" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""1, I've, I've generally tried to stick with using. The modes""" start="00:03:59.280" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that are already packaged in, um, and so there was a. A big""" start="00:04:05.600" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""refactoring of it where. Initially, I made separate repos""" start="00:04:11.040" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""for the different modes that I supported. And then through a""" start="00:04:16.760" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""discussion, which I won't go into here, that got changed""" start="00:04:20.880" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""where I consolidated all of the different transient menus""" start="00:04:24.960" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""for modes that are built in for behavior that's built into""" start="00:04:30.240" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""the Emacs. I put that into a single package called casual.""" start="00:04:35.040" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And then integrations with other third party packages that""" start="00:04:39.200" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""are not built in were given the same standalone repo here. In""" start="00:04:44.800" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""terms of folks wanting to integrate that, it's the beauty of""" start="00:04:49.880" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""open source. They can get the repo and uh, and basically""" start="00:04:55.720" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""study that the code base, uh, actually, if they even install""" start="00:05:01.160" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""it through, uh, you know, the package manager in this case,""" start="00:05:05.200" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""uh, coming from the Melbourne distribution, um, they can""" start="00:05:08.600" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""inspect that code and, and, um, make modifications or even.""" start="00:05:12.680" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""uh, you know, integrate that with their other packages and,""" start="00:05:17.920" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""uh, do that to their heart's content. Um, I think one of the""" start="00:05:21.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""things that I need to, or at least, uh, you know, that I, I, I""" start="00:05:25.280" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""planned on sort of elaborating further on in the""" start="00:05:29.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""documentation is, is that transient already has built in""" start="00:05:32.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""mechanisms for modifying an existing transient. So you can""" start="00:05:36.400" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""add commands or, uh, re redefine the bindings. And so. That""" start="00:05:41.280" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""mechanism is available for users if they're not happy with""" start="00:05:47.280" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""those bindings or they want to add their own commands to a""" start="00:05:51.960" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""menu. Yeah, and people are... I'm personally familiar with""" start="00:05:57.160" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""this, again, with Magit, because sometimes, even though""" start="00:06:01.960" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you have a lot of discoverability for functions that you may""" start="00:06:05.120" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""not know, sometimes you also happen to realize that""" start="00:06:07.480" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""something is missing in the list of available options. I'm""" start="00:06:10.360" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""not sure if Casual actually supports something similar to""" start="00:06:14.000" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Magit, which is levels of options being displayed.""" start="00:06:16.920" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Actually, I'm not sure if it's transient native or if it's""" start="00:06:21.560" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""just something that Magit adds over this. No, transient""" start="00:06:24.040" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""supports levels. I've decided""" start="00:06:27.440" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""in large part, I've tried to avoid that just to avoid the""" start="00:06:30.600" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""added complexity of trying to define those levels. Yeah, I""" start="00:06:36.800" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""was going to say that perhaps it doesn't gel very well with""" start="00:06:43.120" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""the notion of casualness that you seem to be introducing the""" start="00:06:47.480" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""package. On one end, you've got something that is supposed""" start="00:06:49.840" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""to be very casual, very easy to use, and on the other end, you""" start="00:06:52.440" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""add levels for stuff that is fairly advanced. So advanced""" start="00:06:56.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""versus casual, kind of makes sense that you check this over.""" start="00:06:59.600" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Alright, moving to the second question which is related to""" start="00:07:05.760" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""the previous one. Are there any patterns emerging such that""" start="00:07:09.360" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""it would be impossible, sorry, such that it would be""" start="00:07:13.160" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""possible to once systematize and to automate the mapping of""" start="00:07:15.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""mode commands to keyboard-driven menus, possibly even""" start="00:07:19.720" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""have an auto-casual wrapper for an uncovered mode? Does it""" start="00:07:23.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""make sense to you? Yes, and I've gotten these comments from a""" start="00:07:26.560" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""number of different folks who really want to see some sort""" start="00:07:35.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""of design rule to, or basically, what is it? Some sort of""" start="00:07:42.800" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""design system to be able to generate the UI.""" start="00:07:49.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Conceptually, I think it's doable, but on the flip side, it""" start="00:07:54.680" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""just requires so much coordination that it makes it really""" start="00:08:01.400" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""untenable. In this case, I have very strong opinions. I""" start="00:08:05.320" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""think we're better off trying to handcraft the user""" start="00:08:11.200" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""interface to get basically the best user experience. To try""" start="00:08:15.720" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""to emulate that with a design system, good luck, but I'm not""" start="00:08:20.760" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I'm not interested in working on that. Right, yeah. I think""" start="00:08:26.400" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""if I try to think a little more about this, it feels like""" start="00:08:31.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""there's a notion of intention that is very important when""" start="00:08:34.120" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you are designing UI and UX. And to have this intention, it""" start="00:08:36.560" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""feels like you cannot just base yourself of a design idea to""" start="00:08:41.480" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""organize the options. You cannot just work off a pattern. I""" start="00:08:45.320" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""think you need to have the trace of human understanding in""" start="00:08:48.800" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""order to have a UX that really works. And judging by the""" start="00:08:53.600" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""option that you've picked in the demos that you've showed""" start="00:08:56.680" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""today, I don't think it'd be particularly easy to organize""" start="00:08:59.000" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""them in a UX just casually for any mode. I think you need some""" start="00:09:04.040" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""human introspection to understand this, if that makes""" start="00:09:07.960" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""sense.""" start="00:09:14.160" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Moving to the next question, which is related to something""" start="00:09:14.680" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""we discussed about with Magit. Does Casual have a log where""" start="00:09:17.280" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you can see what commands were invoked? This is always""" start="00:09:21.080" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""available via MetaXView Lossage or via the Common Log mode,""" start="00:09:23.760" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""but I'm wondering if it can do for Emacs command what Magit""" start="00:09:27.480" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Process Buffer does for learning Git commands. And for""" start="00:09:31.320" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""everyone who's currently in Emacs, whenever you're""" start="00:09:34.480" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""running a command in Magit, it's always printing the exact""" start="00:09:37.440" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""command that was run in a shell, inside this dollar sign""" start="00:09:40.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""menu. So does Casual actually provide something similar,""" start="00:09:44.800" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Charles? I don't know. In general, because I'm building off""" start="00:09:47.400" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""of transient, it would have to be a mechanism that's""" start="00:09:52.600" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""available through transient. And You know, I would let""" start="00:09:55.200" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Jonas speak more on that capability, because to be honest, I""" start="00:10:01.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""mean, even to my knowledge of transient is not that deep,""" start="00:10:06.800" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""actually.""" start="00:10:14.880" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Well, it's funny that you say this because even though you""" start="00:10:16.840" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""say your knowledge might not be that big, you still managed""" start="00:10:21.400" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""to develop a whole suite of tools on top of it. So as far as""" start="00:10:23.760" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""people who do not know transient a whole lot, you're doing a""" start="00:10:27.240" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""pretty damn good job. Let me tell you that much. Thank you.""" start="00:10:29.600" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Yeah, I think sort of what I bring to the table is, you know,""" start="00:10:33.160" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""quite a considerable career in software development on""" start="00:10:37.720" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""other software ecosystems. And as of late, I've spent""" start="00:10:41.920" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""basically the past decade working on iOS apps. Right. I""" start="00:10:47.880" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""think it's refreshing to be able to go back to something that""" start="00:10:52.440" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""looks like Emacs after iOS.""" start="00:10:55.200" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Well, that's perhaps another longer conversation there.""" start="00:10:56.840" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Speaking of longer conversation, we have only about 10""" start="00:11:03.880" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""minutes left until we need to move on to the next talk. But""" start="00:11:08.600" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""thank you everyone for all the questions you're asking. I'm""" start="00:11:11.600" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""not saying this because we finished, but it's good to see so""" start="00:11:13.760" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""many people writing in the chat and asking questions. It""" start="00:11:17.240" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""always shows that you're interested and that's always""" start="00:11:19.920" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""lovely to us. And you've mentioned Jonas. Obviously, we're""" start="00:11:23.080" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""talking about Jonas Bernoulli, i.e. Tarsius, the""" start="00:11:26.080" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""maintainer of transient. And what Charles just mentioned""" start="00:11:29.360" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""about having a transient tooling to print the lossage,""" start="00:11:33.440" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""basically, of which sex were run by which command, feels""" start="00:11:37.560" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""like this is something that would be interesting. So,""" start="00:11:43.040" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""perhaps, I'm not sure if Tarsius is still on the chat""" start="00:11:44.840" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""currently, but he was definitely around earlier today, so""" start="00:11:50.240" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""we'll make sure that the ID lands on his lap later on. All""" start="00:11:52.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""right, moving to the next question. Is there a setting to""" start="00:11:55.840" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""close menu after executing a command? By default, it will.""" start="00:12:00.920" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""There is a There's a slot that you can define in a transient""" start="00:12:07.480" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""prefix called colon transient. And if you set that to true,""" start="00:12:10.880" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""then it will persist the menu after executing the command.""" start="00:12:17.200" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""But by default, it will actually dismiss the menu. This""" start="00:12:20.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""feels... Did you actually get to play with Hydra before""" start="00:12:26.160" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""playing with transients? To be honest, no. Yeah, I kind of""" start="00:12:29.360" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""slept on Hydra or at least, you know, I really wasn't all that""" start="00:12:36.280" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""ambitious with working with different packages until""" start="00:12:41.720" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""about like, a little less than 2 years ago or so.""" start="00:12:44.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And then the other part was also, um. You know, not not really""" start="00:12:48.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""a technical. Start a comparison because I really don't want""" start="00:12:57.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""to upset folks here, but, uh. But more along the lines of just""" start="00:13:02.000" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""going with the notion that transient was being built in or""" start="00:13:05.760" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""packaged as a built in package for Emacs. I went with using""" start="00:13:09.560" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that for my implementation. Cool. And I don't think there's""" start="00:13:15.280" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""anything controversial with what you're saying right now""" start="00:13:20.680" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""because, you know, we had earlier today, Euro Rechenko, the""" start="00:13:23.200" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""new maintainer of Augment, mentioning that he'd like to""" start="00:13:28.840" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""have a better integration with Transient because""" start="00:13:32.440" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Transient is, it looks like it's here to stay for a long time""" start="00:13:34.320" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""and might even land in core at some point. So, it definitely""" start="00:13:39.160" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""feels comparing Hydra because for me, most of my UI needs in""" start="00:13:42.880" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Emacs prior to Transient were done via Hydra because it was a""" start="00:13:49.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""very convenient tooling. For people who do not know, Hydra""" start="00:13:54.440" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""is written by AboAbo. who's also authored packages like""" start="00:13:57.800" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Lispy, an interactive Lisp mode, also for Ivy, which you""" start="00:14:02.920" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""might know as the counterpart of Helm, maybe five years ago.""" start="00:14:08.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So all those packages, they were very innovative for the""" start="00:14:14.240" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""time and it's cool to see that some of the ideas which were""" start="00:14:17.960" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""introduced by IV and Helm and all this are then taken by tools""" start="00:14:21.200" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""like Transient and done perhaps with a little more""" start="00:14:28.040" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""hindsight now that people have experienced a little more of""" start="00:14:30.280" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""it. Okay, we have still a little bit of time. Moving on to the""" start="00:14:33.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""next question. What modes are you working on at the moment""" start="00:14:38.360" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""for Casual or are you excited to explore?""" start="00:14:41.920" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Well, so I just recently published one for calendar. And so I""" start="00:14:44.160" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""think the calendar interface has a lot of really""" start="00:14:54.000" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""interesting behavior, particularly its support for""" start="00:14:56.840" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""non-Gregorian events, which is, you know, for folks who'd""" start="00:15:00.480" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""like, in my case, looking at the lunar calendar, it's great""" start="00:15:07.480" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""to have tooling to be able to not have to leave Emacs to figure""" start="00:15:13.080" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""out when a lunar date is.""" start="00:15:17.800" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Then, I think, you know, for the most part, My work on casual""" start="00:15:19.760" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""was really kind of my summer of code for Emacs here. And so in""" start="00:15:29.600" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""many ways, the velocity of casual development is going to""" start="00:15:34.960" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""slow down where I've got a big bulk of the modes that I really""" start="00:15:41.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""wanted to take care of. Um, I think one experimental thing""" start="00:15:48.920" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that I think is very unbaked, but I would, you know, if folks""" start="00:15:57.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""are interested, uh, maybe looking at it is, uh, taking a look""" start="00:16:01.000" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""at edebug and trying to make that an easier thing to do. Um,""" start="00:16:06.880" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that is ambitious. Uh, yeah, so maybe too ambitious.""" start="00:16:13.080" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Uh, other things are like really scary projects. And so not""" start="00:16:18.360" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""to say that I've, I really have a desire to do it, but another""" start="00:16:25.000" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""one would be Edith. Right. Okay. Relitigating it's""" start="00:16:28.320" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""interface, um, to have a transient menu. Um, but, um, I say""" start="00:16:33.240" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""these things, but I'm also scared of those things. Yeah, I""" start="00:16:43.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""mean, I think it's a lovely way to tackle the project,""" start="00:16:47.920" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""really, because you are fully aware that edebug and ediffs""" start="00:16:50.720" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""are mastodons when it comes to Emacs. They work very well. If""" start="00:16:55.480" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you've ever tried to do a conflict resolution in maggot and""" start="00:16:59.400" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you've pressed E, that usually opens edith for you and if you""" start="00:17:02.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""happen to know how it works it's amazing but if you do not know""" start="00:17:07.200" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""it works the interface is a little it's a it's a lot to take in""" start="00:17:09.960" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""at the moment and you know you have to like know a b w I can, and I""" start="00:17:13.720" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""can never remember which one is the lower and which one is the""" start="00:17:20.880" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""upper. Like, it constantly goes in different directions. I""" start="00:17:24.440" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""can never remember which is the commit I'm trying to merge,""" start="00:17:27.360" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""which is the commit I'm currently being on. It has nothing to""" start="00:17:29.720" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""do with the Git. It's merely Git and the way they conceive""" start="00:17:32.760" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""this. And probably, there might be a very nice way to""" start="00:17:36.840" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""remember it, but I still haven't found it after 10 years as a""" start="00:17:39.720" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""software developer. So, I guess I need to dig a little""" start="00:17:42.080" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""deeper. But what I find lovely about the approach is that for""" start="00:17:44.920" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you, working on the interface to those tools is actually""" start="00:17:48.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""something that allows you to discover how they work, but""" start="00:17:52.600" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""also how to make it more easy for people to understand how""" start="00:17:55.160" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""those tools work. So you're doing the work of""" start="00:17:59.120" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""understanding, of digesting a lot of the commands, so that""" start="00:18:02.040" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""people do not have to go through the same pain as you have. So I""" start="00:18:05.400" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""find this a very noble endeavor in a way. Uh, yeah, I, you""" start="00:18:08.600" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""know, in so many ways, uh, as perhaps I've, uh, uh, mentioned""" start="00:18:14.280" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""in my talk, um, I'm getting older. Uh, I, I can't remember all""" start="00:18:18.560" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""these damn commands and my hand dexterity is failing. I""" start="00:18:23.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""mean, there's so many. Like, you know, multiple keystroke""" start="00:18:28.760" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""bindings, which I absolutely loathe. Um, you know, at most,""" start="00:18:33.200" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""like I can, I can only physically handle like, you know, two""" start="00:18:37.480" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""characters. uh, three, maybe right at a time. So maybe""" start="00:18:40.800" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that's, that's just me, but, and others, you know, may, may""" start="00:18:47.800" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""feel differently, but at the same time, um, you know, the,""" start="00:18:51.240" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""the work that I've invested here is, has been very personal""" start="00:18:56.000" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""for me because I just don't want to work that hard and I want to""" start="00:19:01.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""keep using Emacs. Yeah, and that's again a very good""" start="00:19:06.240" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""endeavor, I think, to have. And there's one last thing that""" start="00:19:11.160" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I'd like to mention, because you've mentioned this project""" start="00:19:13.720" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""of yours, Casual, being some kind of summer of code, with the""" start="00:19:16.040" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""implication that you've worked a whole lot of it during the""" start="00:19:19.880" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""summer or during this period. and perhaps investment will""" start="00:19:22.400" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""die down a little bit now. But I think it's completely fine to""" start="00:19:26.920" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""have moments when you feel particularly excited and you do a""" start="00:19:31.120" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""lot of work, and sometimes it dies down a little bit.""" start="00:19:33.880" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Personally, I've been... Four years ago, I was working a lot""" start="00:19:36.960" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""on Org Roam and I had my Summer of Code on Org Roam. And that was""" start="00:19:41.440" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""great. I was able to do a lot of things, to get a lot of things""" start="00:19:44.680" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""out of my head. But eventually, you know, you have to go make""" start="00:19:47.160" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""some money to survive or you have to take care of family and""" start="00:19:50.560" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""stuff like this. So, life tends to get in the way of your""" start="00:19:53.280" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""hobbies, especially when, you know, it's so... It's""" start="00:19:56.400" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""hobbies that involve so much of your time to get things""" start="00:20:00.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""right, like programming does. But, you know, we appreciate""" start="00:20:03.240" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""all the work you've done, Charles, and the fact that you've""" start="00:20:07.880" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""put it out there for people to enjoy. It's already a victory.""" start="00:20:09.800" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""You don't need to feel compelled to keep working on it""" start="00:20:12.680" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""because ultimately, as you said, the beauty of open source""" start="00:20:15.000" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""is that people can just send PRs and get the project going""" start="00:20:18.160" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""again. Yeah. I mean, and if anything, you know, folks have""" start="00:20:21.760" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""expressed to me that, you know, in many ways, a lot of this""" start="00:20:28.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""stuff should be, you know, sort of folded in the core. And,""" start="00:20:33.320" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you know, I would love to see at least the ideals of, or at""" start="00:20:37.960" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""least an openness into thinking, rethinking the interface""" start="00:20:45.160" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""for Emacs. So, you know, it doesn't have to be, basically""" start="00:20:49.320" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""work the way it worked for basically the last half of the 20th""" start="00:20:54.120" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""century here. Yeah, Emacs is flexible enough to have""" start="00:20:59.120" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""different approaches and, you know, transient is one""" start="00:21:03.520" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""approach, but at the same time, you know, the ability to""" start="00:21:10.280" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""reimagine the user interface for, you know, the computing""" start="00:21:17.760" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""needs, you know, for basically users needs today, whether""" start="00:21:22.560" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you write or code or anything of that nature, I think is an""" start="00:21:28.160" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""exciting and great thing. Yeah, well, thank you so much for""" start="00:21:33.120" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""this conclusion. So I'm a little sorry, because sadly, we""" start="00:21:39.040" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""needed to move the stream to the next talk. So we've lost""" start="00:21:41.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""about 20 seconds of what you said. But don't worry, whatever""" start="00:21:45.920" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you've said will be available on the website. I didn't want""" start="00:21:49.640" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""to interrupt, sadly, because I didn't want to be rude. But I""" start="00:21:52.000" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""think we did a great job answering the questions. So thank""" start="00:21:55.760" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you so much for taking the time. I'll need to get going,""" start="00:21:58.680" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""because we might have a problem with the next talk. So thank""" start="00:22:01.200" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you so much, Charles. Certainly. Take care. Thank you.""" start="00:22:02.760" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Appreciate it. Bye.""" start="00:22:05.920" video="qanda-casual" id="subtitle"]] + +</div>Questions or comments? Please e-mail [emacsconf-org-private@gnu.org](mailto:emacsconf-org-private@gnu.org?subject=Comment%20for%20EmacsConf%202023%20casual%3A%20Re-imagining%20the%20Emacs%20user%20experience%20with%20Casual%20Suite) <!-- End of emacsconf-publish-after-page --> |