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diff --git a/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-org-update--the-future-of-org--ihor-radchenko--answers.vtt b/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-org-update--the-future-of-org--ihor-radchenko--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..a32b0da2 --- /dev/null +++ b/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-org-update--the-future-of-org--ihor-radchenko--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,1294 @@ +WEBVTT + +00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.039 +And I believe we are live. Okay. Hi again, Ihor. How are you + +00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:09.359 +doing? Ready to answer questions, right? Yes. Ready to + +00:00:09.360 --> 00:00:13.039 +answer questions and all this. I mean, ready for + +00:00:13.040 --> 00:00:14.999 +everything. It's not just a question, it's the maintenance + +00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:21.679 +that is now lying in front of you. So... Oh, that's not the end + +00:00:21.680 --> 00:00:25.159 +of the day. I mean, it's a rare thing indeed, because you + +00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:27.439 +might not be able to see it on BBB. I'm checking in, but we've + +00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:30.599 +got Ihor, obviously, but we also have Bastien and also + +00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:34.199 +Carsten in the room. So, we have three maintainers of Org + +00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:36.119 +Mode right there in the room to answer all your questions. + +00:00:36.120 --> 00:00:40.759 +So, it's a rare occasion that I invite all of you to seize the + +00:00:40.760 --> 00:00:44.679 +day on this. Ihor, do you have anything maybe to say before we + +00:00:44.680 --> 00:00:49.599 +start moving into the questions? Well, I hope that I said + +00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:51.759 +everything I wanted. Hello, Bastien. during the + +00:00:51.760 --> 00:00:55.519 +presentation. Well, actually, I can say a lot more, like + +00:00:55.520 --> 00:01:01.439 +infinitely, because when I first recorded it, it was like + +00:01:01.440 --> 00:01:05.999 +one hour. So yeah. I mean, you did a, I'll just let you know, + +00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:08.359 +you did a fine job condensing everything in just 40 minutes. + +00:01:08.360 --> 00:01:14.079 +So congratulations on this. Yeah, it's, yeah, usually one + +00:01:14.080 --> 00:01:18.039 +minute per slide is the best way. Otherwise, it's something + +00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:22.319 +that's wrong with this presentation. Right, so just moving + +00:01:22.320 --> 00:01:25.519 +into the question, and by the way we've got 20 minutes, we + +00:01:25.520 --> 00:01:27.799 +might be able to chat a little more if Bastien wants to say + +00:01:27.800 --> 00:01:29.919 +something as well and Carsten, you know, feel free to + +00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:33.119 +intervene at any point during the questions if you've got + +00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:35.279 +anything to contribute or our voice will just show the + +00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:37.879 +breeze later on. So the first question is relating to + +00:01:37.880 --> 00:01:41.479 +something you said about 10 minutes 34 that might speak more + +00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:42.685 +to you than to me. + +NOTE Q: Is the track-changes item about the org-element parser? + +00:01:42.686 --> 00:01:45.159 +Is the track changes item about the org + +00:01:45.160 --> 00:01:51.519 +element parser Yes, the track changes is a new library that + +00:01:51.520 --> 00:01:58.959 +helps to receive changes in buffers incrementally. So like + +00:01:58.960 --> 00:02:03.079 +you can, it has API where you can request what changes + +00:02:03.080 --> 00:02:07.999 +happened in buffer since last request, chunk by chunk. And + +00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:14.119 +in org mode, in org element parser, we do pretty much the same + +00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:19.879 +thing, but using timers. So this track changes library + +00:02:19.880 --> 00:02:25.159 +should improve things, first, because it's a bit faster, + +00:02:25.160 --> 00:02:29.279 +because we don't need to conjure every single change, and + +00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:32.119 +track changes can agglomerate changes into chunks much + +00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:36.039 +more efficiently. And second, it's a built-in library, so + +00:02:36.040 --> 00:02:40.439 +it's a good idea to use built-in library when there is such an + +00:02:40.440 --> 00:02:45.879 +option, instead of running out our own implementation. + +00:02:45.880 --> 00:02:49.399 +Definitely. Moving on to the second question, although I'm + +00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:52.664 +not sure it refers that much to what you can do. + +NOTE Q: Could you please keep IRC alive? I prefer it to Matrix + +00:02:52.665 --> 00:02:57.759 +Could you please keep IRC alive? And I prefer it to Matrix. I mean, + +00:02:57.760 --> 00:03:03.239 +you did talk about IRC, right? But did we talk about phasing + +00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:08.799 +it out? So I try to be live on IRC, but I use mobile client for + +00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:12.999 +IRC to keep connected. So I usually connected, I usually see + +00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:15.519 +messages, except certain times when I don't have mobile + +00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:19.239 +internet. Right. Okay. That's why many people will tell + +00:03:19.240 --> 00:03:23.399 +you, you need a bouncer and all this, but the IRC crowd is very + +00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:33.679 +loud. I just don't know a good bouncer. I don't have a good + +00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:36.399 +setup for a bouncer. Okay. + +00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:41.239 +Personally, I use WeChat usually to stay connected to + +00:03:41.240 --> 00:03:44.119 +email. It's obviously a client for IRC, but it also allows + +00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.959 +you to, you know, you can keep it as a bouncer, but it's not in + +00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:54.159 +Emacs. It is. I don't have a computer that is running 24 + +00:03:54.160 --> 00:03:56.839 +hours, so. I mean, that's the thing. I do have a server to run + +00:03:56.840 --> 00:04:02.239 +it off. All right, moving on to the third question. That is + +00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:06.559 +what is running 24 hours. Right. Okay. All right. Moving on + +00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:07.987 +to the third question. + +NOTE Q: Is there any plan for adding support for other modalities of notes like handwritten, audio, etc.? + +00:04:07.988 --> 00:04:09.519 +Is there any plan for adding support + +00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:11.959 +for other modalities of note-like, handwritten, audio, + +00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:14.919 +and et cetera? Would that be interesting to the community? + +00:04:14.920 --> 00:04:20.319 +It will definitely be useful for me. I didn't. Okay. So this + +00:04:20.320 --> 00:04:25.399 +is not the idea I hear frequently. So there's no plan for such + +00:04:25.400 --> 00:04:29.959 +thing. Modalities of notes like handwritten audio. I think + +00:04:29.960 --> 00:04:34.519 +John Kitchin did some handwritten note. + +00:04:34.520 --> 00:04:46.119 +John Kitchin. Yeah. And for audio, I think as well. I. So + +00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:48.999 +basically you can use attachments, you can use images to + +00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:54.279 +paste you. I think John Kitchin even use it to automatically + +00:04:54.280 --> 00:04:58.519 +recognize notes. + +00:04:58.520 --> 00:05:05.359 +I think the previous speaker was talking about a whisper to + +00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:10.399 +recognize voice. Right. + +00:05:10.400 --> 00:05:13.959 +Otherwise there is no special workflow and I'm not even sure + +00:05:13.960 --> 00:05:16.919 +what we can do to support this workflow specifically. + +00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:22.759 +Yeah, it definitely feels like Org Mode is a good format for + +00:05:22.760 --> 00:05:25.719 +textual stuff, and a lot of things are textual. I mean, + +00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:29.679 +that's the whole philosophy behind Emacs. But when it comes + +00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:34.439 +to voice, it feels like it's... I think the person asking the + +00:05:34.440 --> 00:05:36.799 +question probably needs to specify what they mean by voice. + +00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:40.279 +Is it just raw note-taking, as Blaine mentioned in a + +00:05:40.280 --> 00:05:43.199 +previous talk, or is it something else? Feel free to add up to + +00:05:43.200 --> 00:05:46.759 +the question and we'll return to it later on. + +00:05:46.760 --> 00:05:51.919 +I think this is kind of related to drag and drop. I think you + +00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:57.279 +would like to be able to have an audio file and drop it in and + +00:05:57.280 --> 00:06:00.879 +have it translated to text. I think that would be an + +00:06:00.880 --> 00:06:03.959 +interesting API to do this, right? So that you can integrate + +00:06:03.960 --> 00:06:07.599 +it into something like drag and drop. I think I'm going to + +00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:12.079 +talk with supporters in since overnight. So we have, I + +00:06:12.080 --> 00:06:14.959 +believe what constant is alluring to is the fact that not + +00:06:14.960 --> 00:06:17.679 +just pictures but imagine if you were bringing in an audio + +00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:20.399 +file maybe you could, I mean I'm not sure it would work with + +00:06:20.400 --> 00:06:24.279 +whisper but. transcribing it in a way and inserting it as + +00:06:24.280 --> 00:06:27.079 +text. Although I'm not sure how we would be able to do this, + +00:06:27.080 --> 00:06:30.159 +but it's an interesting idea though. It can work if you write + +00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:35.359 +some kind of automatic speech recognition. It's not really + +00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:39.479 +a job for work. If you have some library that can transform + +00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:43.959 +audio to text or transform image to text in Elixir, then we + +00:06:43.960 --> 00:06:47.599 +can happily use that library. Definitely, but I can tell you + +00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:50.119 +that Whisper is not something that works very quickly. We do + +00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:53.479 +use Whisper AI to transcribe some of the talks that we + +00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:56.879 +broadcast during EmacsConf, and I can tell you it takes a + +00:06:56.880 --> 00:06:59.359 +fair while. If you have a video that lasts one minute, it's + +00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:03.439 +definitely going to take more than one minute to try to + +00:07:03.440 --> 00:07:09.239 +transcribe the video. We had to wait for a few years until it + +00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:12.679 +passed. Probably, but it's good to have the ID now so + +00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:17.479 +that we are ready eventually to do this. There is the new + +00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:23.319 +asynchronous IP. It's called org-pending. It's work in + +00:07:23.320 --> 00:07:29.599 +progress. And that basically allows to defer inserting + +00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:34.199 +text into our buffers until later. And while it's being + +00:07:34.200 --> 00:07:37.719 +worked on, it will basically highlight the place where it + +00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:43.159 +will be inserted. And you can click on it, see the progress, + +00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:49.519 +and stuff like that. So this is for Babylon, but I imagine for + +00:07:49.520 --> 00:07:56.159 +things like voice recognition, it can also work. + +00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:59.799 +All right, what I suggest we do, we're going to fill the two + +00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:02.279 +questions that we have now, and then it'd be nice if we could + +00:08:02.280 --> 00:08:05.399 +hear a word from Bastien and from Carsten as well, because + +00:08:05.400 --> 00:08:08.719 +it's rare to have all of you three in a room, and it would be + +00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:11.439 +nice maybe to chat a little bit about this. So quickly, with + +NOTE Q: WRT IETF standardization, have you looked at Karl Voit's OrgDown? + +00:08:11.440 --> 00:08:14.199 +the last two questions, with regards to IETF + +00:08:14.200 --> 00:08:17.039 +standardization, have you looked at Karl Voit's Orgdown? + +00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:24.919 +So, of course, there was a discussion on the mailing list, + +00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:28.319 +and there was a lot of pushback to this idea, especially to + +00:08:28.320 --> 00:08:33.399 +simplify the syntax. So, in short, the conclusion from + +00:08:33.400 --> 00:08:37.799 +there is we want the full syntax, we don't want to have things + +00:08:37.800 --> 00:08:43.079 +like different versus Org mode. But for the syntax, we may + +00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:49.279 +specify different like coverage. So for example, it's a + +00:08:49.280 --> 00:08:53.119 +minimal, it has a minimal support so people can, there's + +00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:59.079 +some parsers or apps can support just whatever curl calls + +00:08:59.080 --> 00:09:04.239 +fork down like level zero or level one or whatever. But the + +00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:10.079 +key point is, when it goes to IETF, we want to have the full + +00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:13.119 +syntax. We don't want to split it into pieces. + +00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:18.959 +Makes a lot of sense. All right. And the last question we have + +NOTE Q: About a year ago we discussed switching GNU documentation from texinfo to org. Do you still consider this? + +00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:22.359 +for now. About a year ago, we discussed switching new + +00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:26.239 +documentation from texinfo to org. Do you still consider + +00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:30.879 +this? definitely contributed to some of the ideas about + +00:09:30.880 --> 00:09:34.479 +syntax. For example, the inline special blocks, I think + +00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:41.639 +about them with this in mind, so that, so basically, one + +00:09:41.640 --> 00:09:45.999 +clarity, we don't want to complicate our syntax, we don't + +00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:50.319 +want to have special built-in support for variable, or I + +00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:54.319 +don't know, function name, or all this kind of specific + +00:09:54.320 --> 00:10:00.959 +markup. But instead, the idea is to have some generic custom + +00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:06.479 +syntax. And then when it goes to software manuals, we want + +00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:09.759 +some like optional library that will provide certain + +00:10:09.760 --> 00:10:12.439 +syntax extensions, like inline special block for + +00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:15.479 +variables, inline special block for acronym and stuff like + +00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:20.999 +that. Then people who want to use Org mode for manuals should + +00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:26.119 +be able to use that new markup to achieve what they want. + +00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:34.359 +That's a distant idea. But the key point is we want to keep org + +00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:39.039 +mode as generic syntax. We don't want to specialize it for + +00:10:39.040 --> 00:10:43.799 +software specifically. But generic in the sense that it can + +00:10:43.800 --> 00:10:44.759 +be used for software as well. + +00:10:44.760 --> 00:10:50.959 +All right, well thank you so much for your answer here and + +00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:56.399 +that was very enlightening but I'd first like to give the mic + +00:10:56.400 --> 00:11:00.359 +to Bastien who might need to leave shortly and I just want to + +00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:03.559 +make sure that you get to chat a little bit Bastien because + +00:11:03.560 --> 00:11:06.199 +it's a big thing we've had you as a maintainer for however + +00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:13.199 +long now? Well, officially, it was 14 years. But obviously, + +00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:17.999 +EHO has been doing much of the groundwork as a de facto + +00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:20.239 +maintainer for several years now, I believe for three or + +00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:28.679 +four years. And before Before IHO, there was Nicolas Goaziou, + +00:11:28.680 --> 00:11:33.679 +who's doing a lot of work. Also Kyle Meyer, who is still + +00:11:33.680 --> 00:11:40.599 +active, backporting Emacs changes. So + +00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:46.039 +it's a relief that we can do things properly, that I didn't + +00:11:46.040 --> 00:11:51.439 +give up before someone could really step up. I'm glad we're + +00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:57.679 +doing this. And I'm glad there was so much help during the + +00:11:57.680 --> 00:12:01.959 +time when I was not available enough. Well, thank you, + +00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:05.039 +Bastien. I think on behalf of the community, I think I'd like + +00:12:05.040 --> 00:12:07.719 +to extend a big thank you for all the work you've done + +00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:12.279 +throughout those 14 years. And if we pull the rope just a + +00:12:12.280 --> 00:12:15.719 +little more, before those 14 years, we had someone else + +00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:18.199 +maintaining Org Mode, well, not actually just maintaining + +00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:20.879 +Org Mode, but also inventing it. Carsten, how are you doing? + +00:12:20.880 --> 00:12:26.799 +I am. I'm doing fine. A really great opportunity to be here. + +NOTE Community + +00:12:26.800 --> 00:12:31.279 +First, I would like to start by indeed thanking Bastien + +00:12:31.280 --> 00:12:34.839 +because, I mean, he was not only maintainer after I stopped, + +00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:37.839 +but already during the time I was there, he was one of the key + +00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:40.559 +contributors who helped the project along for quite a bit. + +00:12:40.560 --> 00:12:44.759 +So it's an incredible investment of time and energy that + +00:12:44.760 --> 00:12:48.399 +Basquiat has shown, which is really fantastic. And now I see + +00:12:48.400 --> 00:12:52.479 +Ihor taking over with, as far as I can see, deep knowledge and + +00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:56.199 +all the right ideas about philosophy. So I'm really + +00:12:56.200 --> 00:13:00.039 +impressed. For me, this is really totally amazing because I + +00:13:00.040 --> 00:13:04.719 +started hacking this more than 20 years ago. And to just see + +00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:07.679 +that there's a community that has sustained itself with the + +00:13:07.680 --> 00:13:11.439 +help of new maintainers for such a long time makes me + +00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:13.999 +extremely grateful. So thank you very much to all of you. + +00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:20.679 +Okay, well, amazing. I mean, I'm a little flustered, I must + +00:13:20.680 --> 00:13:23.559 +admit, because I'm seeing three players of the community in + +00:13:23.560 --> 00:13:27.639 +a way that have kept me busy with very fun stuff to do with Org + +00:13:27.640 --> 00:13:30.999 +Mode, and it's really amazing to see three giants of the + +00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:34.239 +community being able to maintain Org Mode for so long and + +00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:38.199 +contribute so much to it. So, again, thanks to all of you + +00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:40.981 +three. I must also admit that it's really amazing for me + +00:13:40.982 --> 00:13:45.442 +that all of you three stress the importance of the community + +00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:48.479 +a whole lot, and I know that Bastien, you've talked about + +00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:51.359 +maintaining software last year at Emacs Confs, and even + +00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:55.519 +today, during the one-minute little chat that you did in + +00:13:55.520 --> 00:13:59.279 +Ihor's chat, you stressed the importance of maintenance and to + +00:13:59.280 --> 00:14:06.559 +be future-oriented about it. I'm kind of wondering, why do + +00:14:06.560 --> 00:14:12.679 +you think community is so important to Org Mode in general? + +00:14:12.680 --> 00:14:14.679 +Like, obviously we've talked about maintainers and we've + +00:14:14.680 --> 00:14:16.879 +talked about volunteers, but don't you think there's + +00:14:16.880 --> 00:14:19.159 +something more about community in general, about Org Mode + +00:14:19.160 --> 00:14:20.950 +and the fact that we are all taking notes + +00:14:20.951 --> 00:14:34.799 +and doing so much with it? Yeah, are you asking me? + +00:14:34.800 --> 00:14:40.640 +I remember Carsten made his point during the Google talk about + +00:14:40.680 --> 00:14:45.159 +the core idea of Org Mode, about mixing note taking and to-do + +00:14:45.160 --> 00:14:49.959 +manager. It was really powerful. And also in the same + +00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:53.399 +presentation that 98% + +00:14:53.400 --> 00:14:57.047 +of the features were organically developed as ideas + +00:14:57.048 --> 00:15:00.668 +by the community. And Ihor just said the same today + +00:15:00.669 --> 00:15:03.589 +in the presentation, like most of the features, + +00:15:03.590 --> 00:15:06.875 +not only the ideas, but also the code came from + +00:15:06.876 --> 00:15:11.350 +the communities. So that's why the community is so rich. + +00:15:11.351 --> 00:15:12.759 +And another thing is + +00:15:12.760 --> 00:15:16.919 +also that I do remember. Now everyone is having kind of an open + +00:15:16.920 --> 00:15:20.799 +source fatigue and questions about how is it okay to be + +00:15:20.800 --> 00:15:24.039 +maintainer? How do you keep open source project + +00:15:24.040 --> 00:15:28.199 +sustainable? And I'm saying open source on purpose with + +00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:33.119 +this audience to see beyond just the small GNU project and + +00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:36.359 +the small free software community. So at large, there is + +00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:40.679 +some sense of fatigue. I remember that the Org community + +00:15:40.680 --> 00:15:44.079 +right from the beginning had a reputation of being an + +00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:48.839 +amazing community and I think it + +00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:54.879 +continues to be one and I'm amazed that sometimes when I'm, + +00:15:54.880 --> 00:15:59.199 +you know, sometimes I'm, I have this fatigue of moderating + +00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:01.839 +emails from the mailing list, for example, and filtering + +00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:06.199 +out spam. And then I go on the list and I read some emails and I + +00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:09.536 +feel like, okay, this is still there. And it's really + +00:16:09.537 --> 00:16:14.559 +a boost of energy. I wish that this repetition outside Org Mode, + +00:16:14.560 --> 00:16:19.239 +outside Emacs, of being a nice welcoming, + +00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:22.559 +community of knowledgeable people talking of things + +00:16:22.560 --> 00:16:25.319 +and learning from each other that we can + +00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:30.159 +keep up with this pace. Yeah, maybe if I + +00:16:30.160 --> 00:16:32.919 +can just add to this, I think you're making an extremely + +00:16:32.920 --> 00:16:36.679 +important point, Pascal. I think that was really, from the + +00:16:36.680 --> 00:16:39.639 +beginning, something that was really special. And I think + +00:16:39.640 --> 00:16:45.639 +the reason why we all community still works is that first me, + +00:16:45.640 --> 00:16:49.239 +but in particular also the two of you and more people have + +00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:53.359 +been able to keep up the friendly spirit in this community. + +00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:57.239 +Because we had very few fights on the mailing list. There + +00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:02.879 +were a few at some point, we had a few contributors with a + +00:17:02.880 --> 00:17:06.719 +little bit of fights. And I remember that I, for example, had + +00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:10.159 +to invest a lot of time to keep that one under control, but I + +00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:14.199 +think it was totally worth it because as a group, as a whole, I + +00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:18.679 +think it was really fantastic. Our friendly people + +00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:21.719 +always were, and I think that has spurred all the + +00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:22.640 +contributions that we had. Because + +00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:25.542 +if you are in a toxic environment, you will + +00:17:25.543 --> 00:17:29.458 +not be willing to stay and to invest all their time. And if you + +00:17:29.708 --> 00:17:32.291 +are in an appreciative environment where people support + +00:17:32.292 --> 00:17:35.191 +each other, it's a completely different game. So I really + +00:17:35.192 --> 00:17:38.566 +think that Org Mode is a great example for open source + +00:17:38.567 --> 00:17:43.774 +projects that many other communities can learn from. + +00:17:43.775 --> 00:17:52.441 +If I may just interject for a second, because we need to go + +00:17:52.442 --> 00:17:55.441 +into the next chat for the live stream. But as usual, I invite + +00:17:55.442 --> 00:17:57.524 +you, if you're interested with the discussion, we are + +00:17:57.525 --> 00:18:01.482 +staying on BBB, asking questions to Bastien, to Ihor and + +00:18:01.483 --> 00:18:04.316 +to Carsten. So feel free to join on BBB and chat with them + +00:18:04.317 --> 00:18:07.857 +live. The stream will be moving on to the next chat, but we + +00:18:07.858 --> 00:18:10.566 +will be recording the Q&A and posting it afterwards on + +00:18:10.567 --> 00:18:13.441 +emacsconf. So, I'll use the opportunity to thank you again, + +00:18:13.442 --> 00:18:18.941 +all three, for taking part in this EmacsConf, and enjoy the + +00:18:18.942 --> 00:18:27.482 +discussion, and we'll see you later! Thank you, bye bye! So, + +00:18:27.483 --> 00:18:31.274 +yeah, what I was starting to say actually is I feel that the + +00:18:31.275 --> 00:18:35.024 +Org Mode community and to the big extent the Emacs community + +00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:38.679 +is a bit like research in the early days when there was a bunch + +00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:43.959 +of enthusiasts who just exchanged mails together and tried + +00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:49.159 +to find out something new. And there was like no feeling of + +00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:52.719 +competition or too much competition at that time. Unlike + +00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:58.759 +now when we like we all rise for funding and stuff. So it's, + +00:18:58.760 --> 00:19:02.199 +it's really, it's really nice to, to, to have communities + +00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:05.919 +that has the spirit and they hope it can keep the spirit in + +00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:08.279 +future as well. + +00:19:08.280 --> 00:19:14.599 +Yeah. Yeah. I thought I'm very optimistic after. So I mean, + +00:19:14.600 --> 00:19:18.679 +actually had not been reading the mailing list for quite a + +00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:23.039 +while, but I started to read it again a little while ago and I + +00:19:23.040 --> 00:19:26.719 +could just see you also working on it and see how everything + +00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:30.919 +was going. That made me extremely happy to see that and made + +00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:37.679 +me very proud that this is still ongoing. + +00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:42.799 +I was interested about your point about the tables with + +00:19:42.800 --> 00:19:49.079 +multi-lines. My unsolicited advice is don't do it, because + +00:19:49.080 --> 00:19:52.639 +I think it's going to be a mess. Which I think is reflected + +00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.039 +also by you saying that nobody has a good idea on how to do + +00:19:56.040 --> 00:20:01.079 +this. I have certainly thought about it. It is requested so + +00:20:01.080 --> 00:20:04.599 +often. It's requested so often that it feels like it would be + +00:20:04.600 --> 00:20:07.959 +nice to come out with something. The question is, it is what? + +00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:11.399 +Yeah, that's a big question. Because I don't always ask + +00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:15.919 +eDocs, for example, and they do have multi line cells in + +00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:21.279 +tables, but that syntax is so ugly. Yes. Yeah, no, exactly. I + +00:20:21.280 --> 00:20:28.719 +think this is a problem and the question is, how far do you + +00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:33.639 +want to develop or want to be a completely full authoring + +00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:35.839 +system in the sense that you have all these options there + +00:20:35.840 --> 00:20:39.999 +because I think to me, the Org Mode tables have a specific + +00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.759 +application. They have this fast way of building + +00:20:42.760 --> 00:20:46.079 +something. And if I would have to go and build a hugely + +00:20:46.080 --> 00:20:50.279 +complicated table with different numbers of columns and + +00:20:50.280 --> 00:20:53.959 +columns going away and appearing further down the table, so + +00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:56.639 +I would probably go somewhere else. So for me, this seems to + +00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.319 +be overkill. So I don't want to curb anybody's enthusiasm. + +00:21:00.320 --> 00:21:04.919 +But I think it's really important to keep to keep the kind of + +00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:11.199 +functionality that it has. It's a very easy use and quick + +00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:15.879 +ability to do something interesting that I think is more + +00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:23.319 +important. There could be reasons to not do something. So + +00:21:23.320 --> 00:21:28.399 +again, the thing is, we don't have a good idea. But what I know + +00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:32.319 +100% is that we are not going to give up the existing syntax. + +00:21:32.320 --> 00:21:38.839 +Yeah, for sure. So even if you come up with something good, + +00:21:38.840 --> 00:21:42.279 +the existing syntax will remain working. And if people who + +00:21:42.280 --> 00:21:46.159 +need to use simple tables, they should remain possible in + +00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:52.759 +exactly the same way. But I know many people struggle and try + +00:21:52.760 --> 00:21:55.839 +in LaTeX and other workarounds just to create more complex + +00:21:55.840 --> 00:22:01.039 +tables. So there's clearly a demand. I think this is related + +00:22:01.040 --> 00:22:04.439 +to the other question that you asked earlier. I think it's + +00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:06.639 +related to the question about the different parsers. And + +00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:09.999 +then, of course, the way the tables are implemented now is by + +00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:11.944 +basically just looking at what's around you + +00:22:11.945 --> 00:22:13.484 +and doing the right things with + +00:22:13.485 --> 00:22:20.479 +this regular expression-based part of + +00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:24.279 +the parser. And you probably would have to fully use the + +00:22:24.280 --> 00:22:28.839 +other parts and to do all the changes in the formal structure + +00:22:28.840 --> 00:22:31.559 +in order to do something like this. So I have to be honest that + +00:22:31.560 --> 00:22:35.559 +I don't understand this well enough to really have a + +00:22:35.560 --> 00:22:39.679 +meaningful idea about it. Not only that, we'll also need to + +00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:42.799 +rewrite the spreadsheet functionality because it is + +00:22:42.800 --> 00:22:47.679 +completely using regular expressions. Exactly. Not only + +00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:50.639 +idea is missing that the roadmap will be very complicated if + +00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:57.519 +you get there. Yeah. I mean, I do remember. Yeah, go ahead. + +00:22:57.520 --> 00:23:03.359 +Yeah, sorry. I do remember Richard Stallman saying that + +00:23:03.360 --> 00:23:09.759 +Org Mode was doing too much. So my answer was just, coming from + +00:23:09.760 --> 00:23:14.159 +the inventor of Emacs, I took it as a compliment for Org Mode. + +00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:19.319 +But of course, that was just humor. And I agree that the + +00:23:19.320 --> 00:23:24.279 +simple things should keep being simple. And I like the + +00:23:24.280 --> 00:23:30.039 +custom syntax idea of Juan because it goes in the direction + +00:23:30.040 --> 00:23:34.159 +of flexibility while keeping things simple. + +00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:40.319 +And looking forward to what people will come up with. I like + +00:23:40.320 --> 00:23:44.839 +the idea that you want to formalize the syntax. I think that + +00:23:44.840 --> 00:23:48.479 +is really very good. I'd like to also submit it. I think that + +00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:52.359 +would be excellent. I'm also... I think it was proposed by + +00:23:52.360 --> 00:23:57.239 +Timothy, yeah. Initially. Okay. Yeah, that's really + +00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:02.839 +helpful. Pascal, are you still talking, I think? No, yeah, I + +00:24:02.840 --> 00:24:08.399 +just wanted to say also for the younger Emacs users, there is + +00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:12.839 +a lot of new things in Emacs the last five years. It has been so + +00:24:12.840 --> 00:24:17.719 +exciting. And I believe it's exciting for Org Mode too, the + +00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:22.439 +things you mentioned about track changes. uh native + +00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:25.639 +compilation and all that stuff that that's really good like + +00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:29.879 +some some performance problems that we had for org mode for + +00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:33.759 +the agenda and stuff like that were suddenly solved by uh the + +00:24:33.760 --> 00:24:38.159 +the crazy amazing work by Eli and emacs maintainers so + +00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:40.457 +it's really exciting for org as well. + +00:24:40.458 --> 00:24:43.566 +I don't know how you feel, Ihor, about this, + +00:24:43.567 --> 00:24:45.482 +but I know you are reading the Emacs + +00:24:45.483 --> 00:24:50.732 +development mailing list and keeping this is a job in + +00:24:50.733 --> 00:24:54.774 +itself, but it's really exciting for everyone, I guess. Not + +00:24:54.775 --> 00:24:58.274 +only that, I hope we can upstream org-ql, which will speed up + +00:24:58.275 --> 00:25:00.566 +agenda specifically even more. + +00:25:00.567 --> 00:25:06.982 +Okay. I need to fly away, but it was really nice connecting + +00:25:06.983 --> 00:25:13.899 +and I hope everyone has a great conference. Bye-bye. It was + +00:25:13.900 --> 00:25:16.107 +so good to see you. Thank you again for everything that you + +00:25:16.108 --> 00:25:21.399 +have done. Thanks to you both. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. + +NOTE Off-stream Q&A + +00:25:28.520 --> 00:25:35.959 +All right. Is it only the two of us now? I don't really know who + +00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:40.239 +else. Can you see if there's anybody else in this room? I + +00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:45.079 +don't know. There are like two, four, six people and Sacha is + +00:25:45.080 --> 00:25:48.159 +one of them, so probably five people. Oh, Sacha is here. + +00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:51.999 +Okay. I haven't heard her say anything, but I see her in the + +00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:58.479 +chat. Okay. It's the same room, basically. Hi, Sacha. Oh, + +00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:02.199 +okay. They're also at her pad, so we may want to finish other + +00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:08.839 +questions, maybe, if there are some. This is just a circle. + +NOTE microemacs + +00:26:08.840 --> 00:26:12.079 +This is just a historical question, but Carsten, I think you + +00:26:12.080 --> 00:26:14.359 +used microemacs back in the day. + +00:26:14.360 --> 00:26:17.839 +Did that have any influence + +00:26:17.840 --> 00:26:23.879 +on Org? That is a really interesting question. I used + +00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:27.359 +microemacs as my first version of emacs, and then I stepped + +00:26:27.360 --> 00:26:33.359 +over to Emacs. I actually did two things at the same time. I + +00:26:33.360 --> 00:26:39.119 +also was working with so Awk basically, that language. I ran + +00:26:39.120 --> 00:26:45.599 +against walls with both Micro-Emacs and with Awk, where I had + +00:26:45.600 --> 00:26:48.639 +the feeling I don't have enough freedom to do everything + +00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:52.839 +that I wanted, so I switched to Perl on one side and to Emacs on + +00:26:52.840 --> 00:26:58.679 +the other side. That's what it was. Micro-Emacs absolutely + +00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:02.679 +had the function to pull me into Emacs, But it's not that I + +00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:04.759 +have specific microemacs features that would have + +00:27:04.760 --> 00:27:08.119 +triggered me to do something for Org Mode. I think that would be + +00:27:08.120 --> 00:27:14.207 +the answer to your question. All right, thanks. + +00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:21.639 +Are you a user of microemacs, George? I posted the source to + +00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:26.719 +CompSource's Amiga in 86, and I was somewhat responsible + +00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:31.959 +for it being in the wild. Oh, I'm so sorry that I didn't, + +00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:35.199 +wasn't really aware that I made the connection to your name. + +00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:39.719 +No, no, no, no. We all moved on and the world is a better place. + +00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:44.799 +Yeah. No, I actually did use it for something like, I think + +00:27:44.800 --> 00:27:47.440 +six years as my only admin at the time before I made the + +00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:51.359 +switch. No, I put it out to the list. David Lawrence ran with + +00:27:51.360 --> 00:27:55.399 +it and you know, that was about, that was the end of it. And I + +00:27:55.400 --> 00:27:57.599 +actually implemented something like fly spell for + +00:27:57.600 --> 00:28:02.359 +microemacs. I remember doing that at some point. Yeah, no, I + +00:28:02.360 --> 00:28:05.319 +don't want us to get stuck on that. I don't want us to get stuck + +00:28:05.320 --> 00:28:10.279 +on that, so. Yeah, yeah. Good. Thank you. Thank you for + +00:28:10.280 --> 00:28:17.679 +Org Mode. Yeah, you're most welcome. + +00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:22.199 +For microemacs, actually, I also tried it once. It feels + +00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:27.959 +like at home after Emacs, of course, the major downside was at + +00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:33.599 +this point is that there is no UTF support. I think that was + +00:28:33.600 --> 00:28:40.039 +like, unfortunately, that that's not going to work. I + +00:28:40.040 --> 00:28:43.959 +think I'm also going to disconnect now. But it was really + +00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:49.119 +fantastic to listen to your talk. I wish you all the best. I'm + +00:28:49.120 --> 00:28:53.479 +sure that is a good answer. Thank you for joining, and nice to + +00:28:53.480 --> 00:29:00.159 +meet you. Yeah, bye. Bye. + +00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:02.799 +Okay, so there are still people in the room, so if you want to + +00:29:02.800 --> 00:29:10.440 +ask questions, feel free to do it. I + +00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:12.679 +think there's one unanswered question in the etherpad + +00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:18.119 +also. Let me see. + +00:29:18.120 --> 00:29:21.639 +It's probably awkward to answer. Okay, I can answer and then + +00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:24.039 +probably answering the answer for this one. So there's a + +00:29:24.040 --> 00:29:28.519 +question about, from a person, I spent some time writing a + +00:29:28.520 --> 00:29:31.919 +library for myself, which involved working with Org files. + +NOTE Q: Is there/could there be a resource with which to recommend particularly well written codebases for review by others? + +00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:34.359 +One thing I struggled with was finding a good source of + +00:29:34.360 --> 00:29:41.599 +reference code which demonstrated idiomatic usage. + +00:29:41.600 --> 00:29:46.319 +particularly well-written code bases for review by + +00:29:46.320 --> 00:29:52.599 +others? That's a good question. We have some wiki pages. + +00:29:52.600 --> 00:29:57.039 +I'll put it in the answer later. You can also check Org Mode's + +00:29:57.040 --> 00:30:02.399 +code, but usually in org-element there are good usages, and + +00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:06.919 +in Org export. + +00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:10.279 +Otherwise, maybe something from Alphapapa, but I need to + +00:30:10.280 --> 00:30:13.320 +check that and probably reply later. + +00:30:16.167 --> 00:30:23.875 +Otherwise, that's all. So I'm going to end this. + +00:30:52.400 --> 00:32:09.720 +Bye bye. |