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diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-doc--literate-documentation-with-emacs-and-org-mode--mike-hamrick--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-doc--literate-documentation-with-emacs-and-org-mode--mike-hamrick--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..28d655f0 --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-doc--literate-documentation-with-emacs-and-org-mode--mike-hamrick--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,593 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:03.639 --> 00:00:04.019 +[Speaker 0]: Well, we have about, I think, + +00:00:06.339 --> 00:00:06.839 +10 or 15 minutes of on-stream Q&A time. + +00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:10.559 +But if there's more questions than that, + +00:00:11.420 --> 00:00:11.920 +people are welcome to stay. + +00:00:14.200 --> 00:00:14.639 +If Mike has the time to answer some more, + +00:00:15.060 --> 00:00:15.560 +then Awesome. + +00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:21.060 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I will be around for the rest of the + +00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:22.940 +conference. So I am spudpnds, + +00:00:26.580 --> 00:00:27.080 +which is spud upside down on IRC, + +00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:30.140 +if you want to hit me up on IRC. + +00:00:30.860 --> 00:00:31.360 +Nice. + +00:00:42.800 --> 00:00:43.300 +[Speaker 0]: I see we already have a question on the pad, + +00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:46.080 +and it is, did you develop a variant of your + +00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:47.420 +document for CentOS? + +00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:53.239 +[Speaker 1]: I did not. I have not messed with any other + +00:00:56.120 --> 00:00:56.620 +Red Hat distributions other than Fedora. + +00:00:59.960 --> 00:01:00.460 +I would like to expand the document out to + +00:01:05.740 --> 00:01:05.860 +Windows and to Mac OS as I think a lot of + +00:01:07.720 --> 00:01:07.960 +people really want to build Emacs on those + +00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:10.340 +platforms because it's much harder to get + +00:01:13.080 --> 00:01:13.580 +Emacs binaries running on those platforms. + +00:01:15.860 --> 00:01:16.080 +Although they're around on the internet it's + +00:01:17.320 --> 00:01:17.440 +not as bad as it used to be, + +00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:19.760 +but building Emacs is very, + +00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:21.160 +a very fun thing to do. + +00:01:22.760 --> 00:01:23.260 +And I encourage everybody to do that. + +00:01:46.160 --> 00:01:46.440 +[Speaker 0]: Right. We're also getting comments from folks + +00:01:46.800 --> 00:01:47.300 +here on BigBlueButton. + +00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:49.900 +EXC or Matt saying, great talk, + +00:01:51.140 --> 00:01:51.640 +good demonstration of what's possible. + +00:01:53.940 --> 00:01:54.240 +And Aaron thanking Mike, + +00:01:54.760 --> 00:01:55.260 +saying awesome presentation. + +00:01:56.880 --> 00:01:57.040 +And they missed the first few minutes and + +00:01:59.540 --> 00:01:59.720 +have to rewatch to get the portion that they + +00:01:59.720 --> 00:02:00.220 +missed. + +00:02:03.400 --> 00:02:03.700 +[Speaker 1]: I had a hard time cramming the entire talk + +00:02:08.220 --> 00:02:08.720 +into 40 minutes. So I spoke quickly. + +00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:10.919 +I have a feeling I may have left some folks + +00:02:12.540 --> 00:02:13.040 +behind who weren't paying close attention. + +00:02:16.020 --> 00:02:16.520 +So rewatching might help. + +00:02:18.920 --> 00:02:19.420 +[Speaker 0]: Oh, nice. + +00:02:24.920 --> 00:02:25.340 +[Speaker 1]: I noticed Matt said that he helps maintain + +00:02:27.440 --> 00:02:27.700 +the shell functionality or Babel and last + +00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:30.580 +March they added async evaluation into + +00:02:32.920 --> 00:02:33.340 +session code blocks. Very cool, + +00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:34.840 +especially when you're doing something that + +00:02:36.420 --> 00:02:36.820 +takes a long time. It would be nice if Emacs + +00:02:38.920 --> 00:02:39.060 +wasn't locked up. I will definitely have to + +00:02:50.220 --> 00:02:50.460 +check that out. I use this technique at work + +00:02:53.220 --> 00:02:53.360 +a lot, like when I write documents to how to + +00:02:55.900 --> 00:02:56.400 +explain things to coworkers and such. + +00:03:00.060 --> 00:03:00.300 +And 1 of the things I had to explain was how + +00:03:05.220 --> 00:03:05.720 +to build AWS MySQL databases and replicas, + +00:03:07.760 --> 00:03:08.260 +and how to build them with very specific + +00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:10.240 +parameters to work with the system called + +00:03:13.060 --> 00:03:13.320 +Vitesse. And when I was running that + +00:03:15.660 --> 00:03:16.160 +document, building these kinds of MySQL + +00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:20.640 +databases in AWS with lockup Emacs for 20, + +00:03:22.300 --> 00:03:22.800 +25 minutes at a time. So, + +00:03:26.060 --> 00:03:26.540 +yeah, I'm really excited about async + +00:03:26.540 --> 00:03:27.040 +evaluation. + +00:04:03.780 --> 00:04:04.020 +Totally. Oh yeah, Python mode I think has had + +00:04:05.600 --> 00:04:06.100 +async for shell blocks for a while. + +00:04:09.220 --> 00:04:09.720 +I think there's a third-party package at Elba + +00:04:11.260 --> 00:04:11.760 +that adds async support for that. + +00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:16.620 +But yeah, I explicitly wanted to make sure + +00:04:18.620 --> 00:04:18.959 +that it would work with super vanilla stuff. + +00:04:20.060 --> 00:04:20.560 +Oh, it's built in. I see. + +00:04:24.140 --> 00:04:24.280 +Yeah, I didn't realize it was built in for + +00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:26.420 +Python blocks. I'll have to check that out. + +00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:28.300 +There's so much Emacs. + +00:04:32.080 --> 00:04:32.240 +It's hard to wrap your head even around a + +00:04:34.900 --> 00:04:35.400 +tiny portion of it. It's such a deep topic. + +00:04:47.660 --> 00:04:48.160 +Looks like somebody in IRC said, + +00:04:50.220 --> 00:04:50.440 +I can't wait to add some of this stuff to my + +00:04:52.680 --> 00:04:53.180 +documents. And that really makes me happy. + +00:04:55.400 --> 00:04:55.640 +I hope people go out and write literate Org + +00:04:57.180 --> 00:04:57.680 +Mode documents that do amazing things. + +00:05:25.640 --> 00:05:26.040 +When's the next talk? We have like, + +00:05:30.900 --> 00:05:31.080 +[Speaker 0]: let's see. I think we have about 4 or 5 + +00:05:32.960 --> 00:05:33.460 +minutes live on stream for Q&A. + +00:05:35.860 --> 00:05:36.360 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, okay. Oh, here's the question. + +00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:39.320 +Blaine asks, are you running Emacs from the + +00:05:41.420 --> 00:05:41.760 +host machine? And yeah, + +00:05:43.940 --> 00:05:44.180 +so I'm running Emacs on the exact same + +00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:47.060 +machine that I'm building Emacs on. + +00:05:50.580 --> 00:05:50.900 +And I had first thought about doing that over + +00:05:53.440 --> 00:05:53.720 +Tramp. And I thought that would be a very + +00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:55.560 +cool demo to show how you could do that + +00:05:57.980 --> 00:05:58.180 +remotely on Tramp so you didn't need Emacs on + +00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:03.280 +the host machine. But I decided it would be a + +00:06:05.640 --> 00:06:05.780 +lot easier, and as I ran into a deadline to + +00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:06.860 +get the talk completed, + +00:06:08.900 --> 00:06:09.140 +I abandoned that notion for the + +00:06:09.880 --> 00:06:10.380 +straightforward approach. + +00:06:13.260 --> 00:06:13.760 +But ideally, I would spin up virtual machines + +00:06:16.980 --> 00:06:17.140 +and then using the Org Mode document and + +00:06:18.960 --> 00:06:19.440 +having Org Mode reach out to those machines + +00:06:20.440 --> 00:06:20.940 +via SSH and Tramp. + +00:06:33.400 --> 00:06:33.540 +Oh yeah, there's also a little bit of + +00:06:38.200 --> 00:06:38.440 +discussion on IRC about org macros and how + +00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:40.160 +they made their way into the document. + +00:06:42.540 --> 00:06:42.900 +And I remember when I first discovered org + +00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:44.980 +macros by reading the org mode documentation, + +00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:47.500 +I was really excited because I thought I + +00:06:49.860 --> 00:06:50.040 +could limit a lot of the boilerplate I end up + +00:06:51.900 --> 00:06:52.360 +typing. But as we discussed, + +00:06:54.760 --> 00:06:55.260 +ORD macros, I think, only work in 1 context + +00:06:56.380 --> 00:06:56.780 +in your ORD mode document, + +00:06:58.280 --> 00:06:58.780 +and I think that's in the pros section. + +00:07:03.740 --> 00:07:04.080 +So You can't resolve a macro inside a header + +00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:07.100 +arg, for example, or inside an options block. + +00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:09.960 +It would be awesome if macros worked + +00:07:12.280 --> 00:07:12.780 +everywhere, but I'm happy to have them just + +00:07:13.500 --> 00:07:14.000 +as they are now. + +00:07:22.960 --> 00:07:23.460 +[Speaker 0]: Indeed, they're very convenient. + +00:07:32.020 --> 00:07:32.260 +[Speaker 1]: And Blaine also says, thank you for showing + +00:07:33.420 --> 00:07:33.920 +what's possible with literate documentation. + +00:07:35.380 --> 00:07:35.660 +This is mind-blowing. Yeah, + +00:07:39.400 --> 00:07:39.640 +I think so too. I first saw this technique in + +00:07:41.020 --> 00:07:41.520 +Howard's video, Literate DevOps, + +00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:44.900 +and I remember I was just picking up parts of + +00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:47.040 +my mind after it exploded after having + +00:07:49.740 --> 00:07:49.860 +watched that video. So I wanted to do some of + +00:07:51.820 --> 00:07:52.040 +it myself, and that's where I came up with a + +00:07:54.020 --> 00:07:54.520 +couple different approaches to that. + +00:07:57.600 --> 00:07:57.800 +It's not just for, you know, + +00:07:59.060 --> 00:07:59.560 +making literate Emacs configurations. + +00:08:04.680 --> 00:08:04.920 +[Speaker 0]: For Sure. We have another remark slash + +00:08:07.260 --> 00:08:07.580 +question on the pad. Someone saying great + +00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:10.300 +presentation. The preparation is outstanding. + +00:08:12.520 --> 00:08:13.020 +And for someone like me that never touched + +00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:14.540 +the org-mux side of Emacs, + +00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:17.200 +What do you feel is the more complex part to + +00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:19.540 +tackle? You made it seem simple, + +00:08:20.500 --> 00:08:21.000 +but the complexity there. + +00:08:25.840 --> 00:08:26.340 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. Just getting all of the configuration + +00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:31.300 +set up the way you want it is the hardest + +00:08:34.780 --> 00:08:35.280 +part. So some of the defaults are, + +00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:37.280 +you know, they don't look good when you + +00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:39.820 +render them out in LaTeX and finally PDF. + +00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:42.380 +And there's a lot of work to be done to tweak + +00:08:45.380 --> 00:08:45.780 +the LaTeX environment so it looks as pretty + +00:08:48.620 --> 00:08:48.940 +as you might want it. And then just Org Mode + +00:08:50.800 --> 00:08:51.300 +has a lot of knobs that you can tune, + +00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:54.020 +and they have a pretty large impact on how + +00:08:55.520 --> 00:08:56.020 +your document is exported. + +00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:00.680 +So I think the hardest part is just knowing + +00:09:03.820 --> 00:09:03.960 +what's possible and knowing where all the + +00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:05.700 +knobs are to tune and twist. + +00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:10.440 +[Speaker 0]: Got another question on the pad. + +00:09:12.040 --> 00:09:12.180 +And I think we have about a minute or so on + +00:09:13.740 --> 00:09:13.920 +the stream. So I'll read this question as + +00:09:15.160 --> 00:09:15.660 +well. But folks, you're welcome to continue + +00:09:17.560 --> 00:09:18.040 +on the pad or just come join here on BBB + +00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:20.320 +after myself and the stream move on to the + +00:09:23.100 --> 00:09:23.480 +next talk. Yeah, and the next question is, + +00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:24.720 +how do you normally debug, + +00:09:26.640 --> 00:09:27.100 +for example, view the logs or see failed + +00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:29.720 +statuses when the commands in the source + +00:09:32.020 --> 00:09:32.280 +blocks fail, especially if they output lots + +00:09:34.640 --> 00:09:34.780 +and lots of logs, and you need to see the + +00:09:35.640 --> 00:09:36.140 +full history of the build. + +00:09:39.520 --> 00:09:40.020 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so I see it in the messages buffer + +00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:42.580 +whenever I export a document. + +00:09:44.540 --> 00:09:44.700 +If there's a failure, that's typically where + +00:09:47.460 --> 00:09:47.640 +it's written to. And I will actually kill the + +00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:50.440 +messages buffer before I export so I know + +00:09:52.840 --> 00:09:53.200 +that only the messages in the buffer are for + +00:09:55.800 --> 00:09:55.960 +my given export and I mentioned that + +00:09:58.580 --> 00:09:58.780 +debugging trick where you name all of your + +00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:00.960 +org-mode source blocks So if there is a + +00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:02.820 +problem in 1 of the blocks, + +00:10:06.560 --> 00:10:07.060 +it'll actually tell you what the block, + +00:10:09.140 --> 00:10:09.640 +the name of the block the error occurred in. + +00:10:13.160 --> 00:10:13.360 +If you don't do that, it just gives you a + +00:10:14.800 --> 00:10:15.300 +position number in the buffer. + +00:10:18.620 --> 00:10:18.820 +And whenever I tried to convert those + +00:10:21.400 --> 00:10:21.540 +position numbers to actual places where the + +00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:23.760 +error occurred, it was never exactly where I + +00:10:24.640 --> 00:10:25.020 +suspected it would be. + +00:10:26.680 --> 00:10:27.180 +So I found that very difficult in debugging. + +00:10:29.800 --> 00:10:30.040 +So the only real debugging tip I have is name + +00:10:32.840 --> 00:10:33.120 +your source blocks, even if you don't refer + +00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:33.980 +to them later. + +00:10:39.860 --> 00:10:40.020 +[Speaker 0]: I think that's all the time we have on + +00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:41.520 +stream. And I also have to drop as well. + +00:10:42.540 --> 00:10:42.880 +But thanks again so much, + +00:10:46.160 --> 00:10:46.660 +Mike. And folks are welcome to come here and + +00:10:47.980 --> 00:10:48.480 +continue discussion here. + +00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:53.100 +Thanks again. + +00:21:45.060 --> 00:21:45.560 +[Speaker 1]: You + +00:22:00.060 --> 00:22:00.560 +Thank + +00:22:15.060 --> 00:22:15.560 +[Speaker 0]: you + +00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:28.900 +[Speaker 1]: for + +00:22:45.060 --> 00:22:45.560 +watching. You + +00:23:00.260 --> 00:23:00.760 +you diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-emacsconf--emacsconforg-how-we-use-org-mode-and-tramp-to-organize-and-run-a-multitrack-conference--sacha-chua--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-emacsconf--emacsconforg-how-we-use-org-mode-and-tramp-to-organize-and-run-a-multitrack-conference--sacha-chua--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..ecfdd018 --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-emacsconf--emacsconforg-how-we-use-org-mode-and-tramp-to-organize-and-run-a-multitrack-conference--sacha-chua--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,8261 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:53.489 --> 00:00:53.989 +[Speaker 0]: All right. I have unmuted. + +00:00:59.860 --> 00:01:00.180 +It's been a while since I've actually done an + +00:01:05.360 --> 00:01:05.860 +actual presentation. Hi. + +00:01:08.979 --> 00:01:09.380 +Okay. I'm going to deafen myself and mumble + +00:01:12.540 --> 00:01:13.040 +so that I don't get distracted by backstage + +00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:16.900 +chatter. Hello, everyone! Okay, + +00:01:17.980 --> 00:01:18.480 +so where are we? Questions, + +00:01:20.800 --> 00:01:21.300 +questions, questions. Okay, + +00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:23.600 +how easy would it be for someone else to + +00:01:25.960 --> 00:01:26.120 +reuse the Emacs conf strips and config to do + +00:01:29.380 --> 00:01:29.640 +a conf of their own? Like everything else, + +00:01:32.220 --> 00:01:32.560 +I have no idea if things actually work until + +00:01:35.140 --> 00:01:35.600 +somebody does it for, you know, + +00:01:37.500 --> 00:01:37.680 +to get everything to run on a computer that + +00:01:40.080 --> 00:01:40.200 +isn't my computer and with assumptions that + +00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:41.120 +aren't my assumptions. + +00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:43.340 +So, I have no idea. But optimistically, + +00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:46.480 +I have put most of the EmacsConf things, + +00:01:48.760 --> 00:01:49.200 +like EmacsConf, the name of the conference + +00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:50.620 +and things like that in variables. + +00:01:53.160 --> 00:01:53.320 +So if theoretically someone were to run an + +00:01:56.040 --> 00:01:56.320 +org mode conference or something like that, + +00:01:58.440 --> 00:01:58.940 +it might be possible to reuse all this code. + +00:02:01.960 --> 00:02:02.080 +We'll see. I don't know if it's going to be + +00:02:03.480 --> 00:02:03.560 +easy. I don't even know if it's going to be + +00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:05.260 +possible, but it might be fun to try. + +00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:10.199 +What tools would I like to exist in Emacs + +00:02:11.720 --> 00:02:12.220 +land to help with preparing the conference + +00:02:15.880 --> 00:02:16.320 +next time? Well, I've already been thinking + +00:02:18.420 --> 00:02:18.600 +about adjustments that I want to make to + +00:02:21.220 --> 00:02:21.720 +sub-eds so that the audio synchronization + +00:02:24.340 --> 00:02:24.560 +issues that we sometimes have with FFmpeg can + +00:02:26.600 --> 00:02:27.040 +be something that I can flag and maybe fix + +00:02:29.060 --> 00:02:29.560 +even while I'm watching a video. + +00:02:32.960 --> 00:02:33.340 +But also as much as possible, + +00:02:36.820 --> 00:02:37.020 +I like to leave the actual FFMPEG audio and + +00:02:39.220 --> 00:02:39.440 +visual tinkering with to other people like + +00:02:41.320 --> 00:02:41.520 +Leo, whose patience is slightly more than + +00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:45.180 +mine, because audio is, + +00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:47.260 +I still don't have the patience to sit for + +00:02:48.620 --> 00:02:48.900 +it. You can tell I talk really, + +00:02:50.540 --> 00:02:50.860 +really quickly. I'm still trying to squeeze + +00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:53.160 +everything into however little focus time I + +00:02:56.140 --> 00:02:56.280 +actually have. So it would be kind of nice to + +00:03:00.820 --> 00:03:01.320 +use that. Emacs is already doing quite a ton + +00:03:04.740 --> 00:03:04.900 +and stuffing more multimedia processing and + +00:03:06.180 --> 00:03:06.300 +other fun things into it might be + +00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:07.260 +interesting. Who knows? + +00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:09.440 +Oh, the other thing that I would really love + +00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:12.720 +to have that people always ask for is a way + +00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:15.860 +from Emacs to interact with the Etherpad. + +00:03:18.900 --> 00:03:19.340 +The Etherpad API, it seems very granular. + +00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:21.180 +Like, you can set the HTML of a pad, + +00:03:22.920 --> 00:03:23.100 +but you can't actually just append stuff to + +00:03:24.640 --> 00:03:24.960 +it. And I was trying to get something that + +00:03:26.820 --> 00:03:26.980 +could take questions from IRC and + +00:03:28.480 --> 00:03:28.980 +automatically push them into the pad, + +00:03:30.920 --> 00:03:31.400 +even from an ERC bot or whatever, + +00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:34.900 +but no go. If someone were to figure out some + +00:03:38.860 --> 00:03:39.160 +CRDT thing where we can collaboratively edit + +00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:41.500 +the document, that I think is the number 1 + +00:03:42.720 --> 00:03:43.140 +request that people always have around + +00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:46.760 +EmacsConf. That would be really cool to do + +00:03:48.900 --> 00:03:49.320 +more of the conference itself from within + +00:03:53.240 --> 00:03:53.740 +Emacs. I don't know if actually, + +00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:55.860 +well, we have an org file now that launches + +00:03:59.440 --> 00:03:59.940 +the MPV from Emacs. But if you want to have + +00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:02.300 +an ex-widget or something else watching the + +00:04:03.740 --> 00:04:04.240 +conference from within Emacs itself. + +00:04:05.640 --> 00:04:06.140 +I think that will also be really cool. + +00:04:09.480 --> 00:04:09.980 +Yes. And then other fun stuff. + +00:04:12.980 --> 00:04:13.220 +OK, how can speakers and viewers help make + +00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:15.540 +preparing for next year's Emacs Conf even + +00:04:16.300 --> 00:04:16.800 +more fun for the organizers? + +00:04:20.440 --> 00:04:20.899 +Well, I love it when not only do the speakers + +00:04:24.280 --> 00:04:24.780 +do all that work to prepare their talk, + +00:04:27.620 --> 00:04:28.040 +but lately people have actually even been + +00:04:29.780 --> 00:04:30.280 +volunteering to caption their own talks. + +00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:33.740 +And that's great because then they know the + +00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:36.500 +words that they use. And if I can show them + +00:04:39.140 --> 00:04:39.280 +the workflow that we have so that they can do + +00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:42.420 +it very efficiently, because there's all + +00:04:44.620 --> 00:04:44.860 +these wonderful things that I do now with + +00:04:48.340 --> 00:04:48.580 +Subweb Waveform and Aeneas for like the + +00:04:49.900 --> 00:04:50.400 +forced alignment so we can get timestamps + +00:04:53.100 --> 00:04:53.360 +from text and all these other fun things that + +00:04:55.520 --> 00:04:55.680 +make getting a transcript or editing the + +00:04:57.380 --> 00:04:57.880 +captions fun and easy. + +00:05:00.780 --> 00:05:01.000 +That makes it easier for not only speakers to + +00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:03.280 +contribute captions for their own talks, + +00:05:05.220 --> 00:05:05.720 +but also interested volunteers who, + +00:05:07.760 --> 00:05:07.920 +as mentioned, get early access to all the + +00:05:09.140 --> 00:05:09.640 +talks and can watch them at leisure. + +00:05:12.540 --> 00:05:12.800 +And it's, you know, nice prick there. + +00:05:13.700 --> 00:05:14.200 +Definitely should try that. + +00:05:19.400 --> 00:05:19.600 +I do have some sample videos of how we use + +00:05:21.500 --> 00:05:22.000 +subed. But of course, in the process of + +00:05:24.280 --> 00:05:24.780 +shoving like 30 or 40 talks, + +00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:27.100 +maybe 30 talks through it for EmacsConf, + +00:05:29.440 --> 00:05:29.640 +this is like the stress test season for + +00:05:30.340 --> 00:05:30.760 +subed, which is great, + +00:05:31.880 --> 00:05:32.380 +I ended up adding more features. + +00:05:36.260 --> 00:05:36.500 +So 1 of my big to-dos afterwards is I have to + +00:05:38.300 --> 00:05:38.600 +document the different workflows for things + +00:05:40.260 --> 00:05:40.760 +like, okay, you've got a script. + +00:05:43.520 --> 00:05:43.700 +You can use WDiff to get word diffs so you + +00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:45.760 +can take the subtitles and compare them with + +00:05:47.540 --> 00:05:47.720 +the original script and see where the + +00:05:48.880 --> 00:05:49.380 +misrecognized words are. + +00:05:52.960 --> 00:05:53.360 +And that's great. Or you can use SubWeb + +00:05:54.960 --> 00:05:55.440 +Waveform to start adjusting things. + +00:05:56.820 --> 00:05:57.320 +Or for example, if there's a synchronization + +00:06:01.320 --> 00:06:01.820 +issue, I can now middle click on a subtitle + +00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:04.000 +where I want the subtitle to actually start + +00:06:06.500 --> 00:06:06.680 +and then move all the subtitles to start at + +00:06:09.020 --> 00:06:09.280 +that point. So it's getting to be a really + +00:06:10.860 --> 00:06:11.000 +elaborate tool. And I definitely need to + +00:06:15.220 --> 00:06:15.520 +document that and stick all the blog post + +00:06:17.860 --> 00:06:18.040 +links into the readme so that people can find + +00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:20.740 +this in the future. So it's very, + +00:06:23.080 --> 00:06:23.320 +very nifty. And the reason why we do this is + +00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:25.220 +because, well, personally, + +00:06:26.820 --> 00:06:27.160 +I have a hard time sitting and watching + +00:06:28.940 --> 00:06:29.080 +videos. I like to be able to just jump to the + +00:06:31.540 --> 00:06:31.780 +interesting parts or watch it at 3 times + +00:06:33.400 --> 00:06:33.900 +speed, which MPV lets me do. + +00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:36.660 +And the text makes it a lot more searchable, + +00:06:38.960 --> 00:06:39.460 +which is fantastic. And also because, + +00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:41.480 +you know, if you've got all these interesting + +00:06:44.220 --> 00:06:44.720 +variable names and key bindings and whatever, + +00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:47.520 +and the automatic subtitles just don't do the + +00:06:49.540 --> 00:06:49.740 +right thing. So it's nice that people do the + +00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:53.480 +captioning. So, yeah, so that's 1 thing that + +00:06:55.080 --> 00:06:55.380 +people can help with. Captioning is always + +00:06:57.160 --> 00:06:57.280 +very interesting. And the other thing that + +00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:00.780 +people can do is take the inspiration that + +00:07:02.860 --> 00:07:03.340 +you get from EmacsConf and from the ideas + +00:07:04.640 --> 00:07:05.140 +that you have when you're working with Emacs, + +00:07:07.280 --> 00:07:07.780 +and suggest talks for next year's EmacsConf. + +00:07:09.760 --> 00:07:10.260 +And it doesn't have to be a super fancy, + +00:07:13.740 --> 00:07:14.060 +nobody else needs to go out and do a really + +00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:15.420 +professional-looking video. + +00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:17.640 +Even though Howard has set the bar this you + +00:07:19.640 --> 00:07:19.840 +know it's pretty high you don't have to do + +00:07:22.540 --> 00:07:22.660 +that kind of thing it can be just you in a + +00:07:24.860 --> 00:07:25.240 +screen or even just a screen and you talking + +00:07:27.340 --> 00:07:27.400 +about this cool thing that you learned and + +00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:29.340 +they could be a video or it could be a blog + +00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:31.940 +post it could be something else and that + +00:07:34.780 --> 00:07:35.020 +those those things are fantastic because they + +00:07:36.960 --> 00:07:37.200 +inspire people to see what's possible with + +00:07:39.440 --> 00:07:39.620 +Emacs. So that's another big thing that + +00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:41.300 +people can do to help. + +00:07:44.080 --> 00:07:44.480 +And then there's sharing the word about it. + +00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:46.840 +So if you saw something that you really like, + +00:07:48.760 --> 00:07:49.080 +if you write a blog post about it or a tweet + +00:07:51.220 --> 00:07:51.480 +or a toot or whatever else you want to do, + +00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:52.980 +you make a reaction video, + +00:07:55.280 --> 00:07:55.780 +that helps other people discover that stuff + +00:07:57.800 --> 00:07:58.080 +not just today, not just next week, + +00:08:00.340 --> 00:08:00.540 +but you know even later as they search for + +00:08:04.640 --> 00:08:05.140 +these words that as people search for ideas + +00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:07.760 +using words that are not necessarily the ones + +00:08:10.320 --> 00:08:10.560 +in the video, you describing things in other + +00:08:11.980 --> 00:08:12.400 +ways helps with the search engine + +00:08:13.500 --> 00:08:13.740 +optimization, you're not really, + +00:08:15.200 --> 00:08:15.700 +it's just people finding stuff, + +00:08:17.220 --> 00:08:17.500 +which is amazing. So yes, + +00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:19.500 +please write about the cool things that + +00:08:22.840 --> 00:08:23.040 +you've seen and what you'd like to tell other + +00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:26.280 +people about. Suggesting ideas for talks. + +00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:30.340 +Yes. Making talks. All sorts of wonderful + +00:08:35.220 --> 00:08:35.380 +things. OK. Could you elaborate on the + +00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:37.320 +workflow that goes on in your mind for when + +00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:38.320 +approaching these things? + +00:08:40.260 --> 00:08:40.460 +Do you start with an Emacs org solution right + +00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:42.340 +off the bat at this point when faced with a + +00:08:44.059 --> 00:08:44.340 +task? Are there some conscious steps involved + +00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:46.460 +from early ideas to automation of the kind + +00:08:48.740 --> 00:08:49.080 +you just showed? Mostly it starts with, + +00:08:50.740 --> 00:08:51.040 +okay, we got to do this thing. + +00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:54.220 +So I have this to-do. And sometimes, + +00:08:55.860 --> 00:08:56.200 +like in the week before the conference, + +00:08:57.440 --> 00:08:57.720 +I have to think, okay, + +00:09:00.740 --> 00:09:01.000 +is this a top priority thing that I can do + +00:09:01.460 --> 00:09:01.960 +before the conference, + +00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:03.980 +or is it something that I can, + +00:09:05.800 --> 00:09:06.160 +I, I, like we can still do the conference + +00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:08.360 +without doing so I have to just postpone it + +00:09:09.860 --> 00:09:10.360 +until afterwards? So some prioritization + +00:09:12.160 --> 00:09:12.280 +happens. But a lot of times it's like, + +00:09:13.140 --> 00:09:13.320 +okay, you know, like this, + +00:09:14.620 --> 00:09:14.820 +there's a thing that I need to do here. + +00:09:15.920 --> 00:09:16.360 +I don't know how to figure it out, + +00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:19.080 +let me start an org Babble block and start + +00:09:19.760 --> 00:09:20.240 +sketching out something, + +00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:22.620 +you know, custom function or whatever else, + +00:09:23.980 --> 00:09:24.200 +and then say okay, you know, + +00:09:25.380 --> 00:09:25.760 +hey, that looks kind of useful, + +00:09:27.180 --> 00:09:27.600 +let me see if I can generalize that, + +00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:29.640 +and then let me stick it into the library so + +00:09:30.820 --> 00:09:31.320 +that I can find it next year. + +00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:33.520 +And that's basically how it goes. + +00:09:35.500 --> 00:09:36.000 +It just goes, it just like, + +00:09:37.540 --> 00:09:38.040 +I have a thing that I need to do. + +00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:40.280 +If it's, if I'm going to do it more than + +00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:42.720 +once, or actually even if I'm going to do it, + +00:09:44.640 --> 00:09:44.800 +you know, once I tried to automate it just so + +00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:46.500 +that I can understand it and, + +00:09:47.700 --> 00:09:48.100 +and then I can, I can, + +00:09:50.280 --> 00:09:50.440 +I can squeeze it into like the 15 minutes I + +00:09:54.140 --> 00:09:54.280 +actually have and I can pause and I can pick + +00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:56.380 +it up again and the code is still there and + +00:09:57.160 --> 00:09:57.660 +my notes are still there? + +00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:00.760 +And then every little bit of the, + +00:10:03.540 --> 00:10:04.040 +every little step like that builds up. + +00:10:05.740 --> 00:10:06.100 +So I can write a short function today, + +00:10:07.680 --> 00:10:07.820 +and then tomorrow when the kid was asleep, + +00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:09.740 +I can write a little bit more of that. + +00:10:11.160 --> 00:10:11.660 +And so it just goes on from there. + +00:10:14.260 --> 00:10:14.760 +And then I just stuff that all in there. + +00:10:17.660 --> 00:10:17.900 +How well does this approach allow for other + +00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:20.140 +organisers to do individual customisations to + +00:10:21.500 --> 00:10:21.640 +their liking while still being able to + +00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:22.620 +collaborate effectively? + +00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:26.460 +We've actually split things up fairly neatly + +00:10:28.020 --> 00:10:28.260 +in the sense that for this year, + +00:10:30.620 --> 00:10:30.940 +for example, most everyone else was super + +00:10:34.400 --> 00:10:34.900 +busy, so I did all the heavy lifting up until + +00:10:37.420 --> 00:10:37.540 +people were available and then they jumped in + +00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:38.740 +with the audio normalization. + +00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:39.840 +Thank you very much, Leo, + +00:10:41.280 --> 00:10:41.780 +for doing all of that stuff and the hosting + +00:10:42.840 --> 00:10:43.340 +and all the other things. + +00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:46.040 +So I tend to do most of the Emacs list + +00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:48.360 +fiddling with and the shell scripting and + +00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:50.460 +stuff like that, aside from the FFmpeg + +00:10:53.100 --> 00:10:53.520 +incantations, which are too arcane for me to + +00:10:56.860 --> 00:10:57.040 +even think about. And then in the course of + +00:10:57.980 --> 00:10:58.180 +watching me deal with like, + +00:10:59.440 --> 00:10:59.640 +oh, no, this video is not playing. + +00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:01.280 +And then they see the commands that I'm + +00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:04.640 +using, like play and then, + +00:11:05.740 --> 00:11:06.240 +you know, play a world, + +00:11:08.760 --> 00:11:08.920 +which is the ideas of the talk that we were + +00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:10.940 +having a hard time with or MPD or whatever. + +00:11:13.520 --> 00:11:13.740 +Then the other organizers kind of just pick + +00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:15.480 +that up by osmosis, because We didn't even + +00:11:17.160 --> 00:11:17.360 +have time to do dry runs for training this + +00:11:20.540 --> 00:11:20.740 +year. So it's just there's not much + +00:11:22.500 --> 00:11:22.660 +collaboration in the sense that I'm just + +00:11:24.400 --> 00:11:24.740 +basically saying, OK, these are the scripts + +00:11:25.760 --> 00:11:26.260 +that I'm going to write for myself. + +00:11:28.980 --> 00:11:29.480 +And you all figure out how to work with that. + +00:11:34.780 --> 00:11:35.280 +What was the hardest problem you encountered + +00:11:37.040 --> 00:11:37.180 +in organizing or running the conference this + +00:11:38.540 --> 00:11:39.040 +year and how do you deal with it? + +00:11:40.680 --> 00:11:40.840 +Oh, the constant, constant problem with + +00:11:43.340 --> 00:11:43.820 +e-mails. There's so many amazing ideas. + +00:11:45.660 --> 00:11:46.160 +I want to fit into the time. + +00:11:46.920 --> 00:11:47.420 +And then afterwards, like, + +00:11:49.740 --> 00:11:49.960 +Sasha, do not mess with production the day + +00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:50.860 +before the conference. + +00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:52.680 +You're going to save that for after the + +00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:54.920 +conference, right? So that's the hardest + +00:11:56.140 --> 00:11:56.420 +part, is just saying, OK, + +00:11:58.620 --> 00:11:58.780 +yes, that's an idea. I'm going to put that in + +00:12:01.400 --> 00:12:01.680 +the inbox. We're going to maybe get to that + +00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:03.620 +next year. But right now, + +00:12:05.400 --> 00:12:05.560 +these are the things that I need to do in + +00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:07.700 +order to get the conference off the ground + +00:12:14.820 --> 00:12:15.320 +reasonably in a reasonable amount of time. + +00:12:17.140 --> 00:12:17.640 +So earlier in the conference, + +00:12:19.240 --> 00:12:19.740 +then I can be like, OK, + +00:12:21.900 --> 00:12:22.360 +what if we do this? What if we run everything + +00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:24.640 +off a crontab instead of using Emacs tramp + +00:12:25.680 --> 00:12:26.180 +timers? Wouldn't that be great? + +00:12:28.380 --> 00:12:28.840 +And then I can explore all those crazy ideas. + +00:12:30.440 --> 00:12:30.720 +But then as we get closer and closer to date, + +00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:32.720 +I'm like, okay, fine. I'm going to like just + +00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:34.700 +capture the idea and deal with it later. + +00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:36.580 +So that's really, really hard for me. + +00:12:39.520 --> 00:12:39.800 +Year to your growth in attendance and after + +00:12:40.760 --> 00:12:41.260 +the conference video watching. + +00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:46.740 +The growth, well, first thing, + +00:12:51.110 --> 00:12:51.610 +there is like absolute growth in the kind of + +00:12:53.520 --> 00:12:53.720 +the quantity of things that people are + +00:12:56.820 --> 00:12:57.180 +sharing. I have a blog post about this that + +00:12:59.440 --> 00:12:59.820 +talks about a number of minutes of talks, + +00:13:02.160 --> 00:13:02.360 +and it's going up. Last year, + +00:13:03.740 --> 00:13:03.960 +we did 2 tracks because I couldn't fit + +00:13:05.460 --> 00:13:05.720 +everything in 1 day. And this year, + +00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:07.240 +we did 2 tracks, but even then, + +00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:08.360 +everything was kind of squished, + +00:13:09.880 --> 00:13:10.040 +and I was trying to find space in the + +00:13:11.940 --> 00:13:12.160 +schedule. And if you make it so that next + +00:13:13.500 --> 00:13:14.000 +year, we have to figure out 3 tracks, + +00:13:15.760 --> 00:13:16.000 +I think We have another host now, + +00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:17.340 +so it might be doable, + +00:13:19.540 --> 00:13:19.820 +which is great. Who knows? + +00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:23.860 +We'll see. And the other interesting thing + +00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:25.520 +that I'm seeing in terms of growth is that + +00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:27.720 +people are starting to refer to the talks + +00:13:29.800 --> 00:13:30.300 +from previous conferences that inspired them. + +00:13:32.980 --> 00:13:33.220 +So the evil plan is working in that it is + +00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:35.160 +getting people to get cool stuff out of their + +00:13:37.020 --> 00:13:37.200 +heads and into videos that have like + +00:13:39.560 --> 00:13:39.720 +searchable transcripts and that people can + +00:13:41.980 --> 00:13:42.280 +refer to as for inspiration and for showing + +00:13:42.980 --> 00:13:43.200 +other people, hey, look, + +00:13:44.060 --> 00:13:44.560 +this is what it can do. + +00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:46.860 +So that is fantastic growth. + +00:13:49.400 --> 00:13:49.540 +The actual numbers, I'm intense to look at + +00:13:51.160 --> 00:13:51.660 +the number of simultaneous viewers. + +00:13:53.860 --> 00:13:53.980 +And every so often, it's kind of nice to go + +00:13:55.960 --> 00:13:56.360 +through the YouTube stats or whatever. + +00:13:57.560 --> 00:13:57.980 +But that's not so much as a, + +00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:01.320 +like, I don't really keep that in mind as + +00:14:05.060 --> 00:14:05.560 +much, just because as long as people are + +00:14:07.660 --> 00:14:07.880 +connecting to the ideas and getting stuff out + +00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:13.440 +there and being inspired to think around + +00:14:16.220 --> 00:14:16.720 +more, then it's doing the thing. + +00:14:21.300 --> 00:14:21.460 +Cognizant is working. So where are we now for + +00:14:22.640 --> 00:14:23.140 +questions? Ooh, I can actually, + +00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:25.820 +I have ERC here. I can find eventually. + +00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:28.700 +1 of my screens has Dev in it. + +00:14:30.780 --> 00:14:31.260 +Okay, here we are. What are the other + +00:14:34.900 --> 00:14:35.400 +questions? Probably, Probably an IRC. + +00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:39.520 +Where's IRC? Dove, dove, + +00:14:45.700 --> 00:14:46.200 +dove. I did try to record things more slowly, + +00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:47.520 +and I tried several times, + +00:14:49.920 --> 00:14:50.020 +but I really just speak very quickly when I + +00:14:53.300 --> 00:14:53.480 +get excited and Emacs is very fun so it is + +00:14:59.960 --> 00:15:00.460 +tough oh yes okay so 1 in once yes automated + +00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:04.540 +present workflows oh yeah okay so where are + +00:15:05.660 --> 00:15:05.840 +we now for time? Oh look, + +00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:07.900 +it's 4.30, should we do our closing remarks + +00:15:09.280 --> 00:15:09.440 +or like how are things going over in the + +00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:12.340 +other stream? I should find out. + +00:15:14.760 --> 00:15:14.860 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I've been keeping a close eye on the + +00:15:16.400 --> 00:15:16.900 +other 1, but yeah, I believe that- + +00:15:19.800 --> 00:15:20.300 +[Speaker 0]: Yay, look at that, good timing. + +00:15:22.880 --> 00:15:23.300 +Okay, I have managed to zoom through the + +00:15:26.660 --> 00:15:26.980 +questions and we can switch over to the + +00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:31.740 +closing remarks how do we do this yes okay + +00:15:35.060 --> 00:15:35.400 +okay we're gonna oh wait people okay people + +00:15:37.580 --> 00:15:37.760 +who wanted to ask questions how do you want + +00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:39.360 +to do this? Because there are a lot of people + +00:15:42.040 --> 00:15:42.240 +in this 1 here too. You want to go to the + +00:15:48.820 --> 00:15:49.320 +other 1? 0 no, they aren't done yet. + +00:15:51.180 --> 00:15:51.600 +Sorry, I forgot to turn on the con tab + +00:15:52.500 --> 00:15:53.000 +because of course I got excited. + +00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:55.200 +Okay, so Jacob is still answering questions, + +00:15:56.940 --> 00:15:57.440 +which means I get to still answer questions. + +00:15:59.880 --> 00:16:00.060 +Now I'll try to be quiet and let people in + +00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:02.220 +the BBB room speak up if we want to. + +00:16:12.040 --> 00:16:12.540 +Okay that means + +00:16:13.585 --> 00:16:13.650 +[Speaker 3]: are going to hear. + +00:16:13.715 --> 00:16:13.780 +[Speaker 1]: Some more + +00:16:15.660 --> 00:16:16.100 +[Speaker 2]: people in the chat ideas I had on the Emacs + +00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:18.000 +conferences you could have like a little + +00:16:21.300 --> 00:16:21.660 +Emacs starter config just for like the Emacs + +00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:27.040 +conference where you have emms playlist and + +00:16:29.540 --> 00:16:29.780 +IRC help cheer function to help get you into + +00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:35.320 +IRC into ERC and then the to-do states that I + +00:16:36.060 --> 00:16:36.560 +was talking about before. + +00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:40.380 +So you can say, I'm watching this 1, + +00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:41.480 +I want to re-watch this 1, + +00:16:42.780 --> 00:16:43.080 +but I'm going to skip it because I'm watching + +00:16:52.820 --> 00:16:53.220 +something else. I used the HyperBowl package + +00:16:55.680 --> 00:16:55.860 +to go straight to the web pages to all the + +00:16:59.600 --> 00:16:59.860 +either pads but you can also have some quick + +00:17:04.540 --> 00:17:04.960 +functions to go into a CRDT buffer hosted + +00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:07.900 +buffer, where all the org mode Etherpad + +00:17:14.220 --> 00:17:14.440 +documents would be. And then that would get + +00:17:15.280 --> 00:17:15.780 +everybody using Emacs, + +00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:17.839 +and then they could all be chatting with each + +00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:23.980 +other with CRDT, with controlling Emacs. + +00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:25.680 +I don't know how the sub stuff, + +00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:27.339 +I don't know if you can get the sub stuff in + +00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:30.060 +there working, but yeah, + +00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:33.160 +It could be a good way of getting it all + +00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:35.420 +wrapped up together. And also, + +00:17:38.040 --> 00:17:38.400 +Mkron, if you ever looked at that versus + +00:17:40.800 --> 00:17:41.300 +Kron, Mkron is configured in Elisp. + +00:17:43.320 --> 00:17:43.740 +Then you can also write some custom functions + +00:17:44.620 --> 00:17:45.120 +in the middle of your Kron. + +00:17:46.800 --> 00:17:47.280 +So maybe you could make some like conditional + +00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:49.460 +things where you can start or stop it. + +00:17:56.320 --> 00:17:56.440 +And like 1 of the differences is if your + +00:17:58.860 --> 00:17:59.100 +computer reboots, it can start up and say, + +00:18:01.780 --> 00:18:02.160 +oh, I'm supposed to run this cron job at this + +00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:05.200 +time and then just Do the correct thing + +00:18:08.100 --> 00:18:08.600 +rather than losing the state Randomly because + +00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:10.940 +your computer lost power + +00:18:15.700 --> 00:18:15.900 +[Speaker 0]: Thanks for those recommendations I will add + +00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:18.140 +mcron to my list of things to check out. + +00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:24.020 +And yeah, we finally remembered to publish + +00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:25.400 +all those schedules as org, + +00:18:27.540 --> 00:18:27.840 +and I decided to just spam all the time zones + +00:18:28.520 --> 00:18:29.020 +with them, which was fantastic. + +00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:30.620 +And other people have mentioned that this is + +00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:32.960 +useful. We get to figure out how to use this + +00:18:35.740 --> 00:18:35.900 +to teach people more about what you can do + +00:18:36.620 --> 00:18:37.120 +with org. As you mentioned, + +00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:41.280 +encouraging them to tag the stuff with things + +00:18:43.360 --> 00:18:43.860 +that they want to attend gives us the ability + +00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:46.240 +to set up an agenda view for them that has + +00:18:47.840 --> 00:18:48.340 +the talks that are tagged with those tags. + +00:18:48.580 --> 00:18:48.600 +[Speaker 3]: So I + +00:18:49.280 --> 00:18:49.780 +[Speaker 0]: was like, okay, let's, + +00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:54.340 +let's teach org mode and lisp in the process + +00:18:58.120 --> 00:18:58.380 +of doing things. Okay, + +00:19:00.860 --> 00:19:01.000 +there was a question about any chance of an + +00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:03.220 +in person EmacsConf again someday. + +00:19:05.580 --> 00:19:06.000 +And I was actually at the very first EMAX + +00:19:11.040 --> 00:19:11.400 +Conf, which was 2013 and organized in London + +00:19:12.980 --> 00:19:13.080 +to take advantage of the fact that I had a + +00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:16.160 +business shift there. It was fantastic being + +00:19:18.760 --> 00:19:19.120 +in a room with 100 other people who are all + +00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:20.460 +really interested in Emacs, + +00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:23.560 +but I'm not traveling like any time for the + +00:19:25.560 --> 00:19:25.680 +foreseeable future, so if other people are + +00:19:27.500 --> 00:19:27.800 +interested in organizing something like that, + +00:19:29.260 --> 00:19:29.760 +I am totally happy to spread the word. + +00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:31.860 +It doesn't fit with my current lifestyle, + +00:19:32.860 --> 00:19:33.360 +but it might fit somebody's. + +00:19:37.080 --> 00:19:37.580 +I don't know. We're still just here. + +00:19:38.800 --> 00:19:39.300 +And I like the virtual conference. + +00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:42.120 +I really like the fact that we can bring + +00:19:43.780 --> 00:19:44.280 +together people from all over the world. + +00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:46.840 +I can take a look at my schedule with all the + +00:19:47.540 --> 00:19:47.720 +time constraints. Okay, + +00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:49.300 +I need to put this person in the morning + +00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:50.800 +because they're in Australia and I need to + +00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:52.360 +put this person in the afternoon because + +00:19:56.120 --> 00:19:56.360 +they're from Vancouver or from somewhere else + +00:19:58.020 --> 00:19:58.520 +in the Pacific time zone. + +00:20:01.420 --> 00:20:01.920 +And it's just this breadth of people. + +00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:04.300 +But the other thing that I would love for + +00:20:06.220 --> 00:20:06.420 +people to start thinking about is if we could + +00:20:08.300 --> 00:20:08.560 +have a virtual conference in other time + +00:20:11.320 --> 00:20:11.580 +zones, so that's easier for people in Asia + +00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:13.220 +Pacific or Europe to attend. + +00:20:16.080 --> 00:20:16.580 +And as we're getting the hang of this, + +00:20:17.840 --> 00:20:18.080 +this crontab-based thing, + +00:20:20.140 --> 00:20:20.320 +I think we might almost be at the point where + +00:20:22.320 --> 00:20:22.540 +I can set it up to run even when I'm + +00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:25.080 +sleeping. And then other people can figure + +00:20:26.120 --> 00:20:26.520 +out, you know, the exception handling, + +00:20:27.780 --> 00:20:27.900 +oh, you know, this talk needs to be + +00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:30.780 +restarted. Okay, just play it again and scrub + +00:20:31.800 --> 00:20:32.300 +around to find the right part, + +00:20:34.500 --> 00:20:35.000 +which means we could have replays, + +00:20:37.060 --> 00:20:37.560 +or we can have like the Asia Pacific + +00:20:39.140 --> 00:20:39.440 +Alternate Event that we had the other time + +00:20:45.600 --> 00:20:45.780 +where some speakers came back online and did + +00:20:48.840 --> 00:20:49.040 +another Q&A session just for that kind of + +00:20:51.360 --> 00:20:51.660 +event. So those are other cool, + +00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:53.460 +fun things that would love to be, + +00:20:57.700 --> 00:20:58.140 +would be great. Satellite events, + +00:20:59.480 --> 00:20:59.980 +someone mentioned in the etherpad. + +00:21:03.280 --> 00:21:03.520 +Some people have been organizing these, + +00:21:05.020 --> 00:21:05.280 +which are great. Basically a bunch of people + +00:21:07.800 --> 00:21:08.080 +get together in a room or 2 rooms now because + +00:21:10.320 --> 00:21:10.820 +of the tracks and watch Emacs Conf together. + +00:21:12.940 --> 00:21:13.140 +So if you have a physical meetup or if you'd + +00:21:15.360 --> 00:21:15.760 +like to start 1, It's basically, + +00:21:17.860 --> 00:21:17.960 +you know, do this, maybe have stickers if you + +00:21:19.900 --> 00:21:20.200 +have stickers. You know, + +00:21:22.540 --> 00:21:22.800 +it's just have everyone come over and hang + +00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:24.680 +out and meet people. I don't know. + +00:21:27.540 --> 00:21:27.660 +It's a thing. Specifically how to do it, + +00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:29.700 +I have no idea how to organize these things. + +00:21:32.080 --> 00:21:32.580 +But Alain does. So talk to him. + +00:21:35.280 --> 00:21:35.580 +[Speaker 2]: Another way of adding multiple tracks is + +00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:38.140 +changing it to doing it like 2 times a year, + +00:21:39.760 --> 00:21:40.260 +in max confidence. + +00:21:44.340 --> 00:21:44.640 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, yeah, people have mentioned something + +00:21:50.080 --> 00:21:50.320 +like that. Or the fact that org often has + +00:21:51.860 --> 00:21:52.280 +like a full day of talks by itself, + +00:21:53.800 --> 00:21:53.980 +and actually a little bit more than a day + +00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:55.640 +now, because I've been squeezing things into + +00:21:58.260 --> 00:21:58.760 +other tracks. There has been some potential + +00:22:00.060 --> 00:22:00.560 +interest in having an org conf. + +00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:03.480 +It could be a thing. And I'd love to see + +00:22:05.760 --> 00:22:06.240 +also, we'd love to experiment with other + +00:22:08.900 --> 00:22:09.240 +formats. So there could be a bug hunting + +00:22:13.740 --> 00:22:13.900 +session or let's use the breakout rooms to + +00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:16.120 +split up into little mentoring groups and see + +00:22:18.040 --> 00:22:18.240 +how that works. So lots of things that we can + +00:22:21.460 --> 00:22:21.760 +do. They've actually finished over in the Gen + +00:22:24.360 --> 00:22:24.620 +track so I don't know if people want to very + +00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:26.920 +quickly ask questions here or if we go there. + +00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:31.260 +Leo has come over here instead so okay he's + +00:22:32.560 --> 00:22:33.060 +joining over here on the other side. + +00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:36.180 +Okay, hello. + +00:22:38.060 --> 00:22:38.560 +[Speaker 3]: I + +00:22:43.260 --> 00:22:43.440 +[Speaker 1]: have 1 thing to add. Yeah, + +00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:46.720 +[Speaker 4]: No, no, no, I was just about to say I am not + +00:22:48.420 --> 00:22:48.680 +hosting anymore. You 2 do a wonderful job, + +00:22:49.640 --> 00:22:50.140 +and I'm happy to just watch. + +00:22:53.860 --> 00:22:54.000 +[Speaker 1]: go ahead. Cool. Yeah, I was going to add 1 + +00:22:56.520 --> 00:22:56.660 +quick note about any potential suggestions or + +00:22:58.080 --> 00:22:58.240 +recommendations for hosting Emacs on + +00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:00.240 +satellites. Is that, I mean, + +00:23:01.800 --> 00:23:02.300 +given that we are an event centered around + +00:23:07.360 --> 00:23:07.440 +Emacs, and Emacs is backed by the Free + +00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:09.320 +Software Foundation, if you do reach out to + +00:23:11.180 --> 00:23:11.680 +them, they're usually pretty helpful in terms + +00:23:14.340 --> 00:23:14.840 +of sending goodies and stickers and such. + +00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:17.040 +So yeah, if you give them a heads up and + +00:23:17.900 --> 00:23:18.400 +reach out to them in advance, + +00:23:20.800 --> 00:23:20.880 +you might well end up with a whole bunch of + +00:23:22.800 --> 00:23:23.000 +swag on your hands that you could give out + +00:23:24.860 --> 00:23:25.360 +during the satellite. So that's the thing. + +00:23:35.500 --> 00:23:36.000 +[Speaker 5]: Well, I just wanted to note it felt kind of + +00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:37.840 +even smoother. I mean, + +00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:40.160 +you guys always run a nice conference, + +00:23:43.180 --> 00:23:43.460 +but it felt smoother this year than ever + +00:23:45.600 --> 00:23:45.980 +before, which listening to your talk, + +00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:48.900 +Sasha, All the automation that you're doing + +00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:52.740 +is pretty incredible. So I think it's paying + +00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:53.240 +off. + +00:23:58.180 --> 00:23:58.320 +[Speaker 0]: Yay! You know, it is very amusing to hear the + +00:23:59.240 --> 00:23:59.440 +host say, okay, you know, + +00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:01.000 +but we've got to wrap up in the next 30 + +00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:03.040 +seconds because Sasha's contact is going to + +00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:03.740 +go yoink! + +00:24:12.800 --> 00:24:12.980 +[Speaker 5]: I have a person I work with who keeps the + +00:24:15.360 --> 00:24:15.860 +trains running on time shall we say and like + +00:24:18.940 --> 00:24:19.140 +cuts off every meeting like the second that + +00:24:21.140 --> 00:24:21.320 +it's supposed to end while somebody's in + +00:24:24.860 --> 00:24:25.080 +mid-sentence and I hope we don't get to that + +00:24:25.380 --> 00:24:25.880 +point here. + +00:24:34.560 --> 00:24:34.740 +[Speaker 0]: So do we have any more, + +00:24:36.080 --> 00:24:36.360 +[Speaker 4]: oh sorry I'm reverting to the hosting, + +00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:37.900 +Do we have any more questions for MaxConf? + +00:24:39.760 --> 00:24:39.960 +Although maybe we want to switch to the other + +00:24:41.580 --> 00:24:41.760 +room so that we don't struggle too much to + +00:24:44.340 --> 00:24:44.840 +find... Organize the stuff on BBB afterwards. + +00:24:46.360 --> 00:24:46.620 +[Speaker 0]: Oh, the recording. Well, + +00:24:48.340 --> 00:24:48.640 +this is a way to make sure the recording gets + +00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:54.640 +online. But we could do that too. + +00:24:55.760 --> 00:24:56.260 +I don't know. What do y'all think? + +00:25:00.580 --> 00:25:00.900 +[Speaker 4]: I'm personally fine. If we want to stay here + +00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:03.220 +right now, the development track is currently + +00:25:05.280 --> 00:25:05.780 +streaming this BBB room. + +00:25:08.760 --> 00:25:08.940 +So are we on Jen. So we're going to leave it + +00:25:10.760 --> 00:25:10.840 +at is and move into closing remarks if we + +00:25:10.840 --> 00:25:11.340 +want. + +00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:15.060 +[Speaker 1]: Oh, yeah, just, I guess, + +00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:17.920 +make sure that every 1 of the organizers are + +00:25:20.740 --> 00:25:21.060 +here. I see Flo here. Let's see, + +00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:23.860 +Corbyn, are you here? Can you maybe speak + +00:25:24.280 --> 00:25:24.780 +here on BBB? + +00:25:32.860 --> 00:25:33.000 +[Speaker 4]: We'll give some time for Corbyn to figure it + +00:25:33.840 --> 00:25:34.280 +out. He did figure it out eventually + +00:25:36.260 --> 00:25:36.420 +yesterday, so surely today will go + +00:25:36.420 --> 00:25:36.920 +swimmingly. + +00:25:47.420 --> 00:25:47.720 +Right. We're getting everything ready, + +00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:48.220 +folks. + +00:25:57.100 --> 00:25:57.600 +[Speaker 0]: Okay. So while we sort out Corwin, + +00:25:58.980 --> 00:25:59.280 +can someone tell him on mumble, + +00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:00.980 +I guess? Because I'm not sure if he's... + +00:26:05.060 --> 00:26:05.420 +Anyway. I also want to say that in the Emacs + +00:26:06.580 --> 00:26:06.740 +conference channel, people have been + +00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:09.060 +mentioning that the remote stuff has been + +00:26:10.840 --> 00:26:10.920 +working for them. And I really do like the + +00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:12.880 +way that this means we can have all the + +00:26:13.980 --> 00:26:14.480 +videos, you know, all prepared, + +00:26:16.020 --> 00:26:16.220 +they're captioned, you know, + +00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:17.580 +We can send them to people, + +00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:19.500 +we can post them on the website afterwards. + +00:26:21.540 --> 00:26:22.020 +We can bring all these people together who + +00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:23.880 +might not be able to convince their companies + +00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:25.680 +to fly them somewhere for an Emacs + +00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:29.760 +conference. And also I can do this kind of + +00:26:32.120 --> 00:26:32.620 +prep while having my now seven-year-old still + +00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:34.980 +be able to wander by and whatever. + +00:26:36.820 --> 00:26:37.320 +Travelling is really tough. + +00:26:39.220 --> 00:26:39.600 +So, this is fine. This is cool. + +00:26:40.760 --> 00:26:41.260 +I like this. We'll keep doing it. + +00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:44.740 +[Speaker 4]: It's definitely playing into the low-cost + +00:26:46.360 --> 00:26:46.820 +conference. To do it online, + +00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:48.400 +So many people can just access it very + +00:26:53.760 --> 00:26:54.220 +easily. All right, so we've messaged Colwyn. + +00:26:55.760 --> 00:26:56.040 +I guess we can get started with Dalim. + +00:26:57.720 --> 00:26:57.900 +It should maybe take a minute or 2 to join + +00:27:01.400 --> 00:27:01.640 +us. Should I get started with the Final words + +00:27:04.540 --> 00:27:04.900 +of the day? All right, + +00:27:05.740 --> 00:27:06.240 +cool. All right, folks, + +00:27:08.220 --> 00:27:08.440 +we made it. We are at the end of the second + +00:27:10.320 --> 00:27:10.820 +day of EmacsConf, the second of 2 days. + +00:27:12.620 --> 00:27:13.040 +And the first thing I want to say is first, + +00:27:15.360 --> 00:27:15.660 +thank you so much for joining us for this new + +00:27:19.020 --> 00:27:19.200 +edition. It's personally my fourth year doing + +00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:22.500 +the EmacsConf, but if you go to emacsconf-org + +00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:25.080 +and you see the different sessions, + +00:27:27.380 --> 00:27:27.660 +you will realize that the first 1 was in + +00:27:29.820 --> 00:27:30.300 +2013, which happens to be 10 years ago. + +00:27:33.340 --> 00:27:33.480 +So we are obviously very excited about all of + +00:27:35.420 --> 00:27:35.680 +this and we'll tell you perhaps a little more + +00:27:38.100 --> 00:27:38.300 +about what has changed over the last 10 + +00:27:41.760 --> 00:27:42.260 +years. As usual, you know the pre-recorded + +00:27:44.540 --> 00:27:44.800 +talks are available right now on the talk + +00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:46.800 +page, at least for all those which were + +00:27:48.620 --> 00:27:48.760 +pre-recorded. All the ones which happened on + +00:27:50.200 --> 00:27:50.320 +the Google button, it will take us a little + +00:27:52.360 --> 00:27:52.780 +bit of time to figure out how to, + +00:27:54.320 --> 00:27:54.820 +well, when to put them available. + +00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:56.880 +We need to do subtitles and all this jazzy + +00:27:59.060 --> 00:27:59.440 +stuff. And we'll also upload them to YouTube + +00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:02.000 +and other places once we check the audio, + +00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:03.200 +especially for the Q&As. + +00:28:05.140 --> 00:28:05.280 +We need to clean up some of the audios and + +00:28:08.300 --> 00:28:08.680 +make sure that we do not publish any personal + +00:28:13.040 --> 00:28:13.220 +stuff. All the live talks and Q&As will do + +00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:14.700 +this in the weeks to come. + +00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:16.800 +Usually, it takes us about 1 to 2 months to + +00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:17.640 +try to get everything out, + +00:28:18.280 --> 00:28:18.680 +but if it takes longer, + +00:28:19.540 --> 00:28:20.040 +it's fine. Eventually, + +00:28:20.900 --> 00:28:21.180 +everything will be there. + +00:28:23.360 --> 00:28:23.860 +The 1 thing we can say is that by EmacsConf + +00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:26.660 +2024, when it comes around, + +00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:28.840 +everything should have been uploaded at some + +00:28:30.100 --> 00:28:30.600 +point. So that's a wide window. + +00:28:34.340 --> 00:28:34.700 +So again, and as usual, + +00:28:35.980 --> 00:28:36.480 +feel free to spread the word about EmacsConf + +00:28:38.860 --> 00:28:38.940 +because, you know, we've been doing this for + +00:28:42.100 --> 00:28:42.280 +a while and every year more people show up to + +00:28:43.980 --> 00:28:44.440 +these events and more people watch the videos + +00:28:46.620 --> 00:28:47.120 +on YouTube and it's wonderful to see, + +00:28:49.940 --> 00:28:50.220 +you know, our main goal which is to get cool + +00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:51.900 +ideas out of the head of people, + +00:28:53.860 --> 00:28:54.280 +shared and viewed by so many people. + +00:28:56.660 --> 00:28:57.160 +It's always amazing. Also, + +00:28:58.180 --> 00:28:58.680 +I would like to ask you personally, + +00:28:59.700 --> 00:29:00.060 +what did you like about this conference? + +00:29:01.780 --> 00:29:01.980 +Or what do you like, what do you feel was + +00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:02.860 +better than last year, + +00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:05.840 +because the feedback is very useful to us. + +00:29:07.340 --> 00:29:07.540 +We'd also like to know if you've got any + +00:29:08.940 --> 00:29:09.440 +ideas for making things even better. + +00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:12.180 +And we've got a general conference discussion + +00:29:13.900 --> 00:29:14.400 +slash notes slash community message board, + +00:29:14.920 --> 00:29:15.420 +which is pad.emaxconf.org + +00:29:19.280 --> 00:29:19.640 +slash 2023. And you can also just mention + +00:29:22.120 --> 00:29:22.300 +them. You know, we might open this room for + +00:29:24.080 --> 00:29:24.520 +people to join us and chat, + +00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:25.960 +although Flowy and myself, + +00:29:27.340 --> 00:29:27.540 +your up team, needs to go to bed. + +00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:28.680 +So please be mindful of this. + +00:29:29.760 --> 00:29:30.160 +If you ask a very interesting question, + +00:29:32.260 --> 00:29:32.560 +We will both have to make sacrifices to stay + +00:29:34.300 --> 00:29:34.680 +a while longer because you're too damn + +00:29:38.620 --> 00:29:39.080 +interesting. Now we'd like to move into + +00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:41.500 +thanking all the people who make EmacsConf + +00:29:42.660 --> 00:29:43.080 +possible. And obviously, + +00:29:45.060 --> 00:29:45.560 +first, we have to thank all the speakers, + +00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:47.460 +all the volunteers, the participants, + +00:29:49.960 --> 00:29:50.240 +and to all those other people in our lives + +00:29:51.660 --> 00:29:51.820 +who make it possible through time and + +00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:54.060 +support, thank you so much for allowing us to + +00:29:55.760 --> 00:29:55.960 +run EmacsCount. It wouldn't happen without + +00:29:57.160 --> 00:29:57.440 +you, and without us, I suppose, + +00:29:58.540 --> 00:29:59.040 +because we are included in this. + +00:30:01.720 --> 00:30:02.220 +This year's conference hosts are myself, + +00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:03.900 +Leo Vivier, Amine Bendali, + +00:30:05.860 --> 00:30:06.100 +and joining our team of hosts for the first + +00:30:07.080 --> 00:30:07.540 +time this year, Flobby Coder. + +00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:08.360 +Thank you so much, Flobby. + +00:30:09.340 --> 00:30:09.840 +You did a wonderful job. + +00:30:11.600 --> 00:30:12.100 +It's right there. No, dammit. + +00:30:15.180 --> 00:30:15.360 +No, I can't. I can never remember if BBB is + +00:30:17.120 --> 00:30:17.360 +flipping stuff, so either 1 of those + +00:30:19.600 --> 00:30:20.020 +directions. The streams this year, + +00:30:21.760 --> 00:30:22.200 +as last year, were managed by Sasha Schwa, + +00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:24.820 +obviously. And the check-ins by Flobby Coder, + +00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:27.740 +and I'm in with Miscellaneous running around + +00:30:30.020 --> 00:30:30.520 +by Corwin Brust, who will be joining us + +00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:32.500 +momentarily. Apparently, + +00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:35.140 +all his USB failed, so he will be with us as + +00:30:38.140 --> 00:30:38.640 +[Speaker 3]: Roost. Rhymes with Roost. + +00:30:41.040 --> 00:30:41.380 +Do I have audio now? Alright, + +00:30:42.380 --> 00:30:42.800 +I'll go to work on my camera. + +00:30:43.820 --> 00:30:44.320 +Hi. Hello? + +00:30:45.540 --> 00:30:45.980 +[Speaker 4]: soon as he can. It's Lovely. + +00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:47.140 +Okay, I'll keep going. + +00:30:49.120 --> 00:30:49.460 +I also need to thank, well, + +00:30:51.100 --> 00:30:51.480 +need, no, I want to thank all the captioning + +00:30:53.040 --> 00:30:53.400 +volunteers, the captioners as we call them. + +00:30:54.380 --> 00:30:54.880 +You've got Daniel Molina, + +00:30:57.160 --> 00:30:57.660 +Bala Ramadoui, Durai, sorry, + +00:30:59.140 --> 00:30:59.640 +Bhavin Gandhi, Amin Zayed, + +00:31:02.220 --> 00:31:02.440 +Yoni Rapkin, who presented 1 of the talk + +00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:04.740 +earlier, Daniel Alejandro Tapia, + +00:31:06.060 --> 00:31:06.560 +Hannah Miller, Ken Huang, + +00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:07.700 +Jean-Christophe Ellary, + +00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:10.800 +and James Howell. Also thanking + +00:31:11.320 --> 00:31:11.760 +Jean-Christophe Ellary, + +00:31:13.220 --> 00:31:13.680 +Colwyn, Quiliro, Kern, + +00:31:15.420 --> 00:31:15.800 +and Amin Bendali for helping with the early + +00:31:18.120 --> 00:31:18.620 +acceptance process. Sasha, + +00:31:21.180 --> 00:31:21.600 +do I read this 1? It's weird to think myself. + +00:31:22.740 --> 00:31:23.080 +I'm gonna pat myself on the back, + +00:31:24.780 --> 00:31:25.280 +I guess. Go on, Sasha. + +00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:26.920 +I'll do it. I'll do it. + +00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:29.340 +It's fine. Thanks to myself for fiddling with + +00:31:30.900 --> 00:31:31.400 +the audio to get things nicely synced, + +00:31:34.120 --> 00:31:34.340 +And thanks to myself again and other people, + +00:31:36.840 --> 00:31:37.340 +we kept the mailing list free from spam. + +00:31:39.320 --> 00:31:39.440 +Because I'm not sure what happened since May, + +00:31:41.820 --> 00:31:42.180 +but we've been receiving about 3 to 4 spam + +00:31:44.760 --> 00:31:45.040 +emails. And it just happened all of a sudden, + +00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:46.900 +and I was really weirded out by this process. + +00:31:51.380 --> 00:31:51.880 +Where was I? OK, thanks to Andrew Ducurty for + +00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:53.500 +helping with whisper processing. + +00:31:55.840 --> 00:31:56.200 +Thanks to Ashki Ghekwad for design + +00:31:57.540 --> 00:31:58.040 +contribution. Thanks to Yoshin, + +00:31:59.900 --> 00:32:00.040 +our grand changro for all the music that + +00:32:01.840 --> 00:32:01.960 +we've been using for the last 3 years at this + +00:32:04.740 --> 00:32:04.840 +point, I think. Also thanks to Rye for the + +00:32:06.820 --> 00:32:07.020 +server that we're using for OBS streaming and + +00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:08.220 +for processing videos. + +00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:10.800 +And also thanks to the free software + +00:32:12.540 --> 00:32:13.040 +foundation for obviously Emacs itself, + +00:32:14.340 --> 00:32:14.840 +the mailing list that we use, + +00:32:15.340 --> 00:32:15.840 +and the media.emacsconf-org + +00:32:19.540 --> 00:32:19.780 +server where all of the presentations are + +00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:22.580 +currently hosted. We'd also like to thank + +00:32:23.520 --> 00:32:24.020 +BigBlueButton, Etherpad, + +00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:26.420 +IceCast, OBS, The Lounge, + +00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:28.980 +Libre.chat, FFmpeg, OpenAI, + +00:32:31.300 --> 00:32:31.800 +Whisper, the E-N-E-S force alignment tool, + +00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:35.000 +Site Transfer, SubD, and contributors to all + +00:32:36.900 --> 00:32:37.020 +of the tools and services we used in the + +00:32:37.600 --> 00:32:38.000 +making of this conference. + +00:32:39.520 --> 00:32:39.960 +And obviously, all of them are free, + +00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:41.880 +as Sasha obviously told you, + +00:32:44.080 --> 00:32:44.260 +and as we will be telling you again for many + +00:32:47.700 --> 00:32:48.060 +years to come. We'd also like again to thank + +00:32:49.780 --> 00:32:50.140 +everyone for attending the conference and + +00:32:51.820 --> 00:32:52.320 +making EmacsConf what it is. + +00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:54.280 +And for those who were on the general track, + +00:32:56.540 --> 00:32:56.720 +you know Sasha did it in parallel to the last + +00:32:58.980 --> 00:32:59.340 +talk we had today. She did a wonderful talk + +00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:02.180 +on how EmacsConf is actually run. + +00:33:05.620 --> 00:33:06.060 +So there's her talk, there's also an entire + +00:33:07.760 --> 00:33:08.260 +page on our wiki about the infrastructure + +00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:10.400 +that we use. So if you're interested, + +00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:12.380 +especially in running an event of your own, + +00:33:14.340 --> 00:33:14.540 +you've got as much information as you want, + +00:33:15.600 --> 00:33:15.940 +and as Sacha probably told you, + +00:33:17.600 --> 00:33:18.100 +we are available for sharing the knowledge + +00:33:20.820 --> 00:33:20.940 +and enabling your dreams of making a + +00:33:24.220 --> 00:33:24.340 +conference. Amint, do you want to take it + +00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:26.180 +over with the fiscal sponsorship + +00:33:29.320 --> 00:33:29.480 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, sure. Let's see. + +00:33:30.980 --> 00:33:31.480 +Can you please scroll down a little bit? + +00:33:33.520 --> 00:33:34.020 +Whoever is kindly sharing the screen. + +00:33:34.460 --> 00:33:34.960 +[Speaker 4]: announcements? Okay. Oh, + +00:33:36.140 --> 00:33:36.360 +I was scrolling on my end. + +00:33:36.360 --> 00:33:36.860 +Sorry. + +00:33:41.380 --> 00:33:41.780 +[Speaker 1]: Thanks, Sasha. Yeah, so kind of super excited + +00:33:43.080 --> 00:33:43.300 +to finally get into this. + +00:33:45.220 --> 00:33:45.300 +And this is something that we've been kind of + +00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:47.200 +hoping to get worked out for a long time + +00:33:48.280 --> 00:33:48.780 +actually and it's finally here. + +00:33:52.900 --> 00:33:53.140 +So people might have already seen this but as + +00:33:57.620 --> 00:33:58.120 +of this last Thursday we're actually fiscally + +00:33:59.440 --> 00:33:59.940 +sponsored by the Free Software Foundation. + +00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:03.740 +So we joined their Working Together for Free + +00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:07.840 +Software program. And DFSF published the + +00:34:08.540 --> 00:34:08.940 +announcement on their website. + +00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:11.500 +You're welcome to go and check it out there. + +00:34:14.060 --> 00:34:14.280 +But I just want to quickly get into a little + +00:34:17.900 --> 00:34:18.040 +bit about what it means and some of the + +00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:22.000 +benefits, I guess. So as part of this working + +00:34:23.300 --> 00:34:23.800 +together for a free software fund, + +00:34:26.580 --> 00:34:26.679 +the FSF provides fiscal sponsorship for a + +00:34:29.060 --> 00:34:29.320 +number of important free software and new + +00:34:30.900 --> 00:34:31.239 +technical projects, such as the new tool + +00:34:33.679 --> 00:34:33.840 +chain and Replicant, which is a free fork of + +00:34:36.340 --> 00:34:36.540 +Android. And starting this year, + +00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:38.800 +EmacsConf has joined the program as well. + +00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:41.440 +And as a fiscal sponsor, + +00:34:43.520 --> 00:34:44.020 +DFSF can assist us by providing services + +00:34:46.500 --> 00:34:46.940 +required by a legal entity, + +00:34:49.300 --> 00:34:49.460 +like signing contracts and receiving and + +00:34:53.080 --> 00:34:53.360 +processing payments. So to provide some + +00:34:56.820 --> 00:34:57.040 +context, eMAXConf is and always has been an + +00:34:58.740 --> 00:34:58.940 +independent initiative organized by a very + +00:34:59.700 --> 00:35:00.140 +small number of people, + +00:35:02.120 --> 00:35:02.560 +a small team of people without any corporate + +00:35:05.980 --> 00:35:06.220 +sponsors. And that's important in part + +00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:09.380 +because I believe part of our message is that + +00:35:11.860 --> 00:35:12.040 +we want to showcase that everybody can do + +00:35:14.200 --> 00:35:14.380 +this and organize a conference like this no + +00:35:17.200 --> 00:35:17.560 +matter how small your team is and how modest + +00:35:19.540 --> 00:35:19.900 +your resources are, which we will actually + +00:35:21.260 --> 00:35:21.560 +get into a little bit later in the closing + +00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:25.900 +remarks. But yeah, so now having the FSF as + +00:35:27.780 --> 00:35:28.020 +our fiscal sponsor, we're in a better + +00:35:30.200 --> 00:35:30.680 +position to accept donations as 1 potential + +00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:33.860 +way to contribute or help the conference. + +00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:36.860 +And just to clarify, we're currently not + +00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:39.520 +struggling at all to cover these costs of the + +00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:41.240 +servers and such, which we will get into + +00:35:44.720 --> 00:35:45.060 +again. But this is just 1 extra avenue if + +00:35:46.720 --> 00:35:46.880 +people are feeling generous and would like to + +00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:48.380 +help, it's much appreciated. + +00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:54.620 +And yeah, so having a 501c3 nonprofit like + +00:35:57.160 --> 00:35:57.660 +the FSF, as a fiscal sponsor, + +00:36:00.060 --> 00:36:00.340 +many donors will receive tax benefits that + +00:36:02.180 --> 00:36:02.360 +they otherwise wouldn't receive if they were + +00:36:04.540 --> 00:36:04.680 +to like donate to like individuals running a + +00:36:07.500 --> 00:36:07.720 +project directly. And also donors can know + +00:36:08.860 --> 00:36:09.140 +that, you know, the funds that they're + +00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:11.420 +donating are being handled by an accountable + +00:36:14.060 --> 00:36:14.540 +institution. And also importantly, + +00:36:16.020 --> 00:36:16.520 +when donating through the FSF, + +00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:20.460 +Let's see, text changing. + +00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:23.560 +Okay, yeah. People can donate without having + +00:36:24.600 --> 00:36:25.100 +to run any non-free JavaScript, + +00:36:27.380 --> 00:36:27.880 +which is nice. Because unfortunately, + +00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:29.540 +usually these days on the web when you do + +00:36:30.600 --> 00:36:30.880 +want to buy something or spend money, + +00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:32.340 +you have to run non-free JavaScript, + +00:36:35.020 --> 00:36:35.220 +which isn't the case when donating through + +00:36:37.720 --> 00:36:38.160 +the FSF. Yeah, so we just joined, + +00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:39.500 +as I said, on Thursday, + +00:36:43.020 --> 00:36:43.220 +and we've already received our very first + +00:36:45.400 --> 00:36:45.640 +donation, so we'd like to extend our thanks + +00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:47.300 +and gratitude to Scott Ranby, + +00:36:49.480 --> 00:36:49.980 +who is actually our first ever kind donor. + +00:36:51.820 --> 00:36:52.320 +They agreed to be thanked publicly. + +00:36:55.900 --> 00:36:56.200 +So thank you, Scott. And yeah, + +00:36:57.040 --> 00:36:57.540 +so this is a recent development. + +00:36:59.800 --> 00:36:59.980 +And we plan to add much more information and + +00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:02.020 +details about this whole situation to the + +00:37:04.200 --> 00:37:04.700 +wiki, including links to the announcements, + +00:37:06.280 --> 00:37:06.780 +some more information about the program, + +00:37:08.040 --> 00:37:08.540 +and our donation page of course, + +00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:13.140 +in the new future. And in the meantime I'm + +00:37:15.080 --> 00:37:15.240 +also happy to help answer any questions as + +00:37:17.900 --> 00:37:18.400 +best as I can, So feel free to ping me on IRC + +00:37:19.640 --> 00:37:20.140 +or just email me at bandalia.guinard.org. + +00:37:26.140 --> 00:37:26.640 +[Speaker 3]: Which gives me a chance to jump in and just + +00:37:29.060 --> 00:37:29.560 +point out 1 question that we know people have + +00:37:32.680 --> 00:37:32.960 +is just about how much of the money goes to + +00:37:35.660 --> 00:37:35.860 +FSF when you make a contribution through the + +00:37:36.860 --> 00:37:37.360 +fund toward EmacsConf? + +00:37:40.560 --> 00:37:40.760 +[Speaker 1]: Right, exactly. Yeah, and the answer to that + +00:37:44.540 --> 00:37:44.720 +is that it's 10%, which is for supporting the + +00:37:46.720 --> 00:37:46.960 +operation of the Working Together program and + +00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:49.300 +also the shared GNU infrastructure, + +00:37:52.040 --> 00:37:52.540 +which we as EmacsConf use and depend on, + +00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:55.420 +along with several hundred GNU packages. + +00:37:59.860 --> 00:38:00.060 +So, yeah, and it covers things like + +00:38:03.060 --> 00:38:03.480 +transaction costs that the FSF's payment + +00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:04.500 +processor charges? + +00:38:10.040 --> 00:38:10.240 +[Speaker 3]: And then again I'll come back to say this is + +00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:12.780 +a real fair price. I have some experience + +00:38:15.300 --> 00:38:15.540 +with working with payment processing and + +00:38:19.120 --> 00:38:19.440 +things like this and like 10% that's a that's + +00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:22.940 +something that you see in Bigger businesses + +00:38:25.900 --> 00:38:26.380 +that have a model around making money on that + +00:38:29.160 --> 00:38:29.280 +Transaction so to be able to do that as a + +00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:31.760 +nonprofit. We're taking advantage of a really + +00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:32.900 +awesome thing there. + +00:38:35.860 --> 00:38:36.060 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, + +00:38:36.820 --> 00:38:37.120 +just for a quick plug, + +00:38:38.860 --> 00:38:39.060 +the FSF is actually doing an end of year + +00:38:41.780 --> 00:38:42.020 +fundraiser right now. So if you want to go + +00:38:44.220 --> 00:38:44.700 +donate to them, or if you donate to us, + +00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:48.260 +a part of it will go to the FSF to support + +00:38:51.400 --> 00:38:51.900 +their work on free software, + +00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:53.500 +helping grow the movement, + +00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:56.120 +and spread the word about it. + +00:39:02.080 --> 00:39:02.360 +So, thank you. And I guess now is a good time + +00:39:05.380 --> 00:39:05.800 +for me to pass the baton to the next + +00:39:08.160 --> 00:39:08.320 +organizer who wants to talk about some of the + +00:39:11.040 --> 00:39:11.540 +specs of the servers that we use right now. + +00:39:14.720 --> 00:39:14.860 +[Speaker 0]: We actually don't have to go about this in + +00:39:16.560 --> 00:39:16.840 +detail. I just put it in there in case people + +00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:19.540 +were curious about how much it takes to run + +00:39:20.740 --> 00:39:21.240 +something like this. Not a lot. + +00:39:22.900 --> 00:39:23.100 +It's just really, you know, + +00:39:26.100 --> 00:39:26.260 +2 days of computing is not that expensive in + +00:39:29.060 --> 00:39:29.480 +today's world, and all the rest is just + +00:39:32.220 --> 00:39:32.640 +volunteer time and a heck of a lot of Emacs + +00:39:34.080 --> 00:39:34.280 +lists as previously discussed in our + +00:39:41.020 --> 00:39:41.180 +presentation. So, we'll just skip through + +00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:42.440 +that instead of reading all of it. + +00:39:43.580 --> 00:39:43.840 +Unless people are specifically curious, + +00:39:44.640 --> 00:39:45.140 +you can ask questions afterwards. + +00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:46.820 +But yes, happy birthday, + +00:39:49.200 --> 00:39:49.440 +EmacsConf, and here's another wonderful 10 + +00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:49.940 +years. + +00:39:56.820 --> 00:39:57.040 +[Speaker 4]: All right, I think we are at the end of the + +00:39:58.820 --> 00:39:59.320 +closing remarks. Have I forgotten anything? + +00:40:00.060 --> 00:40:00.380 +We haven't had Flowy yet, + +00:40:03.340 --> 00:40:03.560 +I believe. Sorry for putting you on the spot + +00:40:03.560 --> 00:40:04.060 +again. + +00:40:07.940 --> 00:40:08.400 +[Speaker 6]: I guess I have nothing really to say besides + +00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:09.780 +what you have already said. + +00:40:12.560 --> 00:40:13.060 +So thank everybody to make a presentation, + +00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:15.640 +to do anything here. Thanks for all of you + +00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:17.080 +that I could be a part of it. + +00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:18.380 +I have to admit it also. + +00:40:21.020 --> 00:40:21.520 +So thank you all. And yeah, + +00:40:22.540 --> 00:40:23.040 +nothing to say probably. + +00:40:25.560 --> 00:40:25.840 +[Speaker 1]: And I also want to send the thanks to Flowy + +00:40:27.260 --> 00:40:27.380 +for, you know, stepping in. + +00:40:29.340 --> 00:40:29.480 +We kind of like throw this on you like at the + +00:40:31.560 --> 00:40:31.720 +last second, but Flowy actually stepped in + +00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:34.160 +and hosted graciously a couple of the talks + +00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:35.140 +on the Dev track today. + +00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:37.200 +So, which I think went very well. + +00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:38.980 +So congrats and thank you. + +00:40:39.720 --> 00:40:40.220 +[Speaker 6]: Thank you. + +00:40:41.420 --> 00:40:41.920 +[Speaker 4]: Speaking of which we were not monsters. + +00:40:43.420 --> 00:40:43.660 +We kindly asked Floey yesterday because + +00:40:44.540 --> 00:40:44.760 +everything was going so well. + +00:40:45.520 --> 00:40:45.600 +And now we can say it, + +00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:47.240 +you know, I can say things are going well. + +00:40:48.760 --> 00:40:48.880 +Usually it's a bad thing when you're doing a + +00:40:50.500 --> 00:40:50.740 +broadcast to say things are going well right + +00:40:53.080 --> 00:40:53.300 +now because it tends to backfires at some + +00:40:56.980 --> 00:40:57.480 +[Speaker 3]: Hours of notice, hours of notice. + +00:40:58.900 --> 00:40:59.400 +That, that's planning. + +00:41:02.420 --> 00:41:02.920 +[Speaker 4]: point. But yesterday- So hours of notice, + +00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:05.340 +Flowy didn't sleep all that much because we + +00:41:06.500 --> 00:41:06.980 +tasked him with hosting, + +00:41:08.440 --> 00:41:08.720 +so he was turning in his bed all night + +00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:10.460 +thinking, oh, I'm going to host MaxCons. + +00:41:13.660 --> 00:41:13.860 +But Flowy, you did a wonderful job and I am + +00:41:15.720 --> 00:41:15.940 +so glad that not only you were able to join + +00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:17.900 +us again this year, but that also you were + +00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:20.140 +able to host. Because last year, + +00:41:20.900 --> 00:41:21.140 +had we asked you to host, + +00:41:21.820 --> 00:41:22.320 +you would have said no. + +00:41:25.120 --> 00:41:25.580 +First time we asked you this year was yes, + +00:41:27.100 --> 00:41:27.600 +but give me some time to think about it. + +00:41:30.100 --> 00:41:30.600 +[Speaker 6]: Next year it is yes completely. + +00:41:32.780 --> 00:41:32.940 +[Speaker 4]: If we've done a good job, + +00:41:33.560 --> 00:41:34.060 +it will be yes directly. + +00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:38.080 +All right, so since we are at the end of the + +00:41:41.140 --> 00:41:41.320 +thankings and I did say europe team needs to + +00:41:43.580 --> 00:41:43.700 +go to bed in about 12 minutes that leaves us + +00:41:45.940 --> 00:41:46.440 +about 12 minutes to try to answer as many + +00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:48.340 +points as you'd like to raise. + +00:41:50.640 --> 00:41:50.940 +Sasha, I think the Q&A room is still open + +00:41:52.680 --> 00:41:53.100 +because we are technically still in the Emacs + +00:41:53.560 --> 00:41:54.020 +conference room currently. + +00:41:56.480 --> 00:41:56.660 +So, if you... We're going to put the link + +00:41:57.840 --> 00:41:58.000 +again if you need to find it. + +00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:00.300 +Otherwise, scroll up and find the 1 on there. + +00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:04.900 +[Speaker 0]: I think I can change the redirect. + +00:42:07.240 --> 00:42:07.740 +Maybe. I will go figure this out. + +00:42:08.600 --> 00:42:09.100 +Keep talking in the background. + +00:42:12.160 --> 00:42:12.280 +[Speaker 4]: Right. So, whilst we figure this out in the + +00:42:13.740 --> 00:42:13.860 +background, it would be nice if you could + +00:42:14.640 --> 00:42:15.040 +join us and ask questions, + +00:42:15.900 --> 00:42:16.020 +either by dropping them. + +00:42:18.080 --> 00:42:18.340 +I see plenty of people have already left some + +00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:19.840 +comments. We have 2 places, + +00:42:21.820 --> 00:42:22.240 +right now it's more about a chitchatting + +00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:23.360 +about the end of the conference. + +00:42:24.160 --> 00:42:24.660 +If you've got general feedback, + +00:42:26.160 --> 00:42:26.400 +we've mentioned it at the top, + +00:42:28.580 --> 00:42:28.780 +but if you want to write your general + +00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:31.080 +feedback here, it will find its way at some + +00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:33.160 +point in the years of the relevant people who + +00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:34.280 +can make things change. + +00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:36.040 +So don't worry too much about where you put + +00:42:37.120 --> 00:42:37.540 +your feedback, it'll be fine. + +00:42:40.240 --> 00:42:40.440 +But now, how about we start reading some of + +00:42:42.700 --> 00:42:43.080 +the notes that people have said or questions + +00:42:43.080 --> 00:42:43.260 +that + +00:42:47.094 --> 00:42:47.151 +[Speaker 3]: have been asked. So here's 1 for Amin. + +00:42:48.460 --> 00:42:48.820 +Do you have any stats on how many people + +00:42:52.200 --> 00:42:52.700 +watched for an IRC and BBB over the 2 days? + +00:42:58.140 --> 00:42:58.620 +[Speaker 1]: Right, yeah, so I guess for IceCast, + +00:43:00.040 --> 00:43:00.540 +which I can answer more readily, + +00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:04.260 +I think yesterday we were averaging around + +00:43:08.120 --> 00:43:08.620 +240, 250 concurrent viewers at a time. + +00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:13.260 +And today, so today it varied. + +00:43:16.300 --> 00:43:16.740 +I think the maximum was again like around 200 + +00:43:19.600 --> 00:43:19.820 +to 20-ish with the average being more around + +00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:25.460 +180, 190 viewers. We've had a lot of hits to + +00:43:28.700 --> 00:43:29.180 +the actual web pages for the Emacs Conf Wiki + +00:43:31.720 --> 00:43:31.960 +or the pad, which are all being served on 1 + +00:43:34.740 --> 00:43:35.140 +server. I pulled some numbers. + +00:43:36.140 --> 00:43:36.640 +I'm not sure if they're correct. + +00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:38.900 +So I'm like a little bit hesitant to discuss + +00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:41.980 +them. Safe to say they're easily in the tens + +00:43:44.380 --> 00:43:44.580 +of thousands, maybe in the hundreds of + +00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:48.420 +thousands of total visits over the past, + +00:43:52.540 --> 00:43:53.040 +[Speaker 0]: Maybe the pad makes a lot of small requests. + +00:43:53.940 --> 00:43:54.400 +[Speaker 1]: I guess, 48 hours. Right, + +00:43:57.040 --> 00:43:57.200 +okay. So, yeah, that's why I'm hesitant to + +00:43:59.240 --> 00:43:59.380 +say. But yeah, easily in the thousands or + +00:44:01.860 --> 00:44:02.020 +[Speaker 3]: You know + +00:44:02.980 --> 00:44:03.260 +[Speaker 4]: who you are anyway, the crowd, + +00:44:04.080 --> 00:44:04.240 +you know how many you are, + +00:44:05.340 --> 00:44:05.840 +you do not need exact numbers + +00:44:08.720 --> 00:44:09.220 +[Speaker 1]: tens of thousands. Yeah, + +00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:11.200 +so I don't have the exact numbers but I guess + +00:44:13.260 --> 00:44:13.460 +it's always kind of fun to maybe try to pull + +00:44:15.700 --> 00:44:15.840 +some numbers and look at it that way but you + +00:44:18.080 --> 00:44:18.580 +know of course we all know that what we do, + +00:44:19.720 --> 00:44:20.220 +every single person counts. + +00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:24.660 +So I don't know, trying to look at turning + +00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:28.400 +people into abstract numbers isn't, + +00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:30.820 +I don't know, inspiring to me very much, + +00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:32.340 +but it's cool. So. + +00:44:36.020 --> 00:44:36.140 +[Speaker 4]: All right. So how about we go into the + +00:44:37.640 --> 00:44:38.140 +questions. So Sasha is now in the viewport + +00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:39.780 +where we can see some questions. + +00:44:41.200 --> 00:44:41.700 +So how about we take some of them. + +00:44:43.900 --> 00:44:44.060 +I can read them or if anyone of the + +00:44:45.020 --> 00:44:45.520 +organizers wants to do this, + +00:44:46.720 --> 00:44:47.040 +feel free, especially those who haven't + +00:44:48.040 --> 00:44:48.540 +talked to a whole lot this year. + +00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:53.480 +Cohen, do you want to try it? + +00:44:54.760 --> 00:44:55.260 +[Speaker 3]: I didn't make my motive clear. + +00:44:59.220 --> 00:44:59.500 +I did and I'm done. I took the first + +00:45:01.120 --> 00:45:01.320 +question, I picked the bottom question off + +00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:03.120 +the list because I knew exactly who it was + +00:45:05.140 --> 00:45:05.500 +going for. The person who wants to answer or + +00:45:07.080 --> 00:45:07.580 +direct the next question is welcome. + +00:45:10.520 --> 00:45:10.760 +Sorry, I could have given a little better + +00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:11.680 +stage direction there. + +00:45:13.660 --> 00:45:14.160 +I'm not prepared to answer how many emaxers + +00:45:16.080 --> 00:45:16.560 +are from Nordic countries other than to say + +00:45:17.680 --> 00:45:18.180 +definitely yes and several. + +00:45:21.900 --> 00:45:22.080 +And I haven't looked close enough at the + +00:45:22.580 --> 00:45:23.080 +suggestion yet. + +00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:27.720 +[Speaker 4]: Right, okay. I can take the question about + +00:45:30.020 --> 00:45:30.060 +the BBB limitations. So it's the second 1, + +00:45:31.560 --> 00:45:32.060 +the red 1. Small suggestion, + +00:45:33.120 --> 00:45:33.520 +likely out of your control, + +00:45:36.340 --> 00:45:36.660 +but anyway, the blue button seems to work + +00:45:38.300 --> 00:45:38.560 +very well, but it would be a bit more + +00:45:40.680 --> 00:45:40.840 +watchable if the webcam frames were lined up + +00:45:42.660 --> 00:45:42.920 +vertically on 1 side, because it would allow + +00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:44.920 +the screen share frames to be larger and + +00:45:47.080 --> 00:45:47.560 +would make much better use of the viewable + +00:45:49.740 --> 00:45:50.240 +space. Maybe worth a bug report to upstream. + +00:45:53.080 --> 00:45:53.420 +And I agree, BBB has been really good. + +00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:54.900 +Amine, did you want to say something? + +00:45:55.120 --> 00:45:55.240 +[Speaker 3]: I'm going + +00:45:56.760 --> 00:45:56.880 +[Speaker 1]: to continue and then I'll add something at + +00:45:56.960 --> 00:45:57.460 +the end. + +00:45:59.960 --> 00:46:00.100 +[Speaker 4]: Okay, sure. So BBB has been really good for + +00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:04.940 +us. It allows us to have many parallel rooms + +00:46:07.700 --> 00:46:07.800 +which are all recording service side at the + +00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:10.120 +same time. And it's wonderful for us because + +00:46:11.260 --> 00:46:11.580 +we can gather. At some point, + +00:46:13.520 --> 00:46:13.820 +I think last year, we had 4 concurrent talks + +00:46:15.220 --> 00:46:15.360 +being recorded because people were just so + +00:46:17.040 --> 00:46:17.540 +interested in what was going on in rooms. + +00:46:19.040 --> 00:46:19.540 +And you know, we only, + +00:46:21.660 --> 00:46:22.160 +like this year, the co-organizers, + +00:46:23.720 --> 00:46:23.940 +it's the 5 people you see in a room + +00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:26.880 +currently. And if we had all of us to be in a + +00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:28.580 +separate room, having to record on the + +00:46:29.340 --> 00:46:29.640 +machine, it wouldn't work. + +00:46:32.120 --> 00:46:32.280 +So we are able to demultiply the amount of + +00:46:33.560 --> 00:46:34.060 +content that we produce thanks to BBB, + +00:46:37.540 --> 00:46:37.700 +but sadly, we are also quite limited by the + +00:46:39.560 --> 00:46:39.720 +interface of BBB. Another problem that is + +00:46:43.860 --> 00:46:44.360 +dear to me is that audio tends to be fairly + +00:46:46.240 --> 00:46:46.740 +bad at some points depending on the speakers + +00:46:50.080 --> 00:46:50.580 +because BBB has really funky audio correction + +00:46:51.500 --> 00:46:51.820 +stuff going in the background, + +00:46:52.540 --> 00:46:52.900 +and sometimes it works, + +00:46:53.760 --> 00:46:54.260 +sometimes it doesn't work, + +00:46:55.480 --> 00:46:55.980 +and especially on my machine, + +00:46:58.320 --> 00:46:58.480 +the specs are above in the document if you're + +00:47:02.040 --> 00:47:02.220 +interested, but BBB and OBS do not play well + +00:47:04.640 --> 00:47:04.820 +at all. You might have heard me speaking with + +00:47:06.120 --> 00:47:06.500 +some clicks in my voice at some point. + +00:47:07.600 --> 00:47:08.100 +That's another problem of BBB. + +00:47:09.240 --> 00:47:09.520 +Anyway, I mean, you wanted to add something + +00:47:09.720 --> 00:47:10.220 +as well. + +00:47:14.060 --> 00:47:14.340 +[Speaker 1]: Right, yeah, I kind of empathize and also + +00:47:17.220 --> 00:47:17.640 +emphasize the problems with audio on BBB + +00:47:19.860 --> 00:47:20.360 +sometimes, but about the specific suggestion + +00:47:22.540 --> 00:47:22.760 +here of like lighting things up at least + +00:47:24.780 --> 00:47:24.960 +visually, I think that's like much more + +00:47:26.940 --> 00:47:27.440 +doable even if you don't open a bug upstream. + +00:47:30.140 --> 00:47:30.520 +I believe the Free Software Foundation for + +00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:31.860 +their LibrePlanet conference, + +00:47:33.740 --> 00:47:34.200 +either last year or the year before, + +00:47:36.500 --> 00:47:36.760 +they had some custom, like clients signed + +00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:38.500 +into browser, custom CSS, + +00:47:40.520 --> 00:47:40.720 +where it would do exactly something like + +00:47:44.440 --> 00:47:44.820 +that. It would like enlarge the shared screen + +00:47:46.840 --> 00:47:47.000 +on the 1 side and then stack up all of the + +00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:48.280 +webcam feeds on 1 side. + +00:47:50.280 --> 00:47:50.440 +So we might be able to use something like + +00:47:50.440 --> 00:47:50.940 +that. + +00:47:53.040 --> 00:47:53.540 +[Speaker 3]: So I'll tack on to that. + +00:47:56.760 --> 00:47:56.880 +And now I feel like a heel as soon as I + +00:47:59.340 --> 00:47:59.500 +opened my mouth, because I think I almost get + +00:48:01.480 --> 00:48:01.720 +the sense Floyd wants to jump in here and + +00:48:03.680 --> 00:48:03.840 +we're all talking, everyone except Sasha who + +00:48:06.420 --> 00:48:06.660 +actually wrote OBS, you know, + +00:48:10.680 --> 00:48:10.920 +the OBS WebSocket plugin that is probably the + +00:48:12.100 --> 00:48:12.600 +answer to all the different questions + +00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:13.480 +everyone is bringing up. + +00:48:15.060 --> 00:48:15.420 +So I guess I'll leave my input at that And + +00:48:16.680 --> 00:48:16.800 +Chloe, did you have anything to say, + +00:48:17.720 --> 00:48:18.220 +or can we pick on Sasha? + +00:48:20.460 --> 00:48:20.960 +[Speaker 6]: Nothing to say. + +00:48:25.120 --> 00:48:25.320 +[Speaker 0]: I need to update the OBS WebSocket plugin for + +00:48:27.260 --> 00:48:27.440 +the protocol change, because I think the + +00:48:29.040 --> 00:48:29.540 +protocol change was from 4 to 5. + +00:48:32.080 --> 00:48:32.300 +It's 1 of those things that I haven't gotten + +00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:35.580 +[Speaker 1]: Cool. But + +00:48:37.120 --> 00:48:37.280 +[Speaker 0]: around to. yeah, so we'll try to solve it in + +00:48:41.240 --> 00:48:41.380 +CSS. So if I can tinker with the CSS or if + +00:48:44.160 --> 00:48:44.380 +somebody else would like to volunteer to move + +00:48:45.720 --> 00:48:46.220 +things around, then that would be fantastic + +00:48:48.040 --> 00:48:48.540 +because front-end should be things. + +00:48:53.480 --> 00:48:53.600 +Okay, oh, what order of magnitude hours do + +00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:55.520 +you each of you think you devote to the + +00:48:58.260 --> 00:48:58.580 +conference yearly? I have I expected someone + +00:48:59.540 --> 00:49:00.040 +would ask this question. + +00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:08.120 +So I have I have my the past 11 years of time + +00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:11.400 +analysis. This is my Emacs category, + +00:49:12.780 --> 00:49:13.280 +so it also includes Emacs news. + +00:49:15.660 --> 00:49:16.160 +So this is my Emacs hours by month and year. + +00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:18.420 +So you can see last year, + +00:49:21.140 --> 00:49:21.640 +it spiked up a lot. But this year, + +00:49:23.100 --> 00:49:23.440 +it has taken less time. + +00:49:26.260 --> 00:49:26.760 +So last month, it was about 93 hours. + +00:49:29.020 --> 00:49:29.520 +And the month before that was just about 87 + +00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:31.880 +hours of prep. And this actually includes + +00:49:33.240 --> 00:49:33.740 +things like captioning and, + +00:49:36.260 --> 00:49:36.340 +and coordination. And then you can see a + +00:49:38.560 --> 00:49:38.940 +little bit of time here like the EMAX news + +00:49:42.040 --> 00:49:42.440 +and and harvesting q&a and adding chapter + +00:49:43.780 --> 00:49:44.280 +index indices and things like that. + +00:49:47.960 --> 00:49:48.460 +So I, I like it, it's it's my form of fun. + +00:49:50.540 --> 00:49:50.640 +And Otherwise, I'm mostly just, + +00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:53.460 +you know, helping the kiddo go to play dates + +00:49:54.320 --> 00:49:54.820 +and carrying things around. + +00:49:57.280 --> 00:49:57.500 +And, you know, so this is the stuff that I do + +00:49:58.260 --> 00:49:58.760 +to keep my brain happy. + +00:50:00.060 --> 00:50:00.320 +And if you're wondering, + +00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:01.860 +okay, well, do you sleep? + +00:50:03.520 --> 00:50:03.820 +That's the next question I expected people + +00:50:04.840 --> 00:50:05.060 +ask. The answer is yes, + +00:50:06.420 --> 00:50:06.660 +we still actually do manage to sleep, + +00:50:09.640 --> 00:50:09.800 +or at least I do. Less so now that I have a + +00:50:10.760 --> 00:50:11.260 +kid, this is like 2016, + +00:50:13.100 --> 00:50:13.260 +had a kiddo, and then suddenly much less + +00:50:14.640 --> 00:50:14.800 +sleep, but still a reasonable amount of + +00:50:16.780 --> 00:50:17.280 +sleep. So Emacs stuff happens, + +00:50:19.600 --> 00:50:20.100 +I can still sleep, and it's a lot of fun. + +00:50:23.260 --> 00:50:23.760 +[Speaker 4]: Now that's data for you folks. + +00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:27.460 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, we can't top that at all. + +00:50:30.420 --> 00:50:30.820 +[Speaker 0]: It's a blog post also, + +00:50:30.820 --> 00:50:31.320 +yeah. + +00:50:33.160 --> 00:50:33.340 +[Speaker 4]: Especially, you start like this, + +00:50:36.540 --> 00:50:37.040 +how do you expect all of us to say anything + +00:50:38.680 --> 00:50:38.740 +after this? Whatever we say is not going to + +00:50:40.560 --> 00:50:40.680 +be backed up by data, it's not going to be as + +00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:42.520 +many hours, and it's not going to be as + +00:50:43.180 --> 00:50:43.680 +qualitative in general. + +00:50:53.640 --> 00:50:53.900 +I can remark on something because for me it's + +00:50:56.040 --> 00:50:56.540 +my fourth year helping to organize EmacsConf + +00:50:59.280 --> 00:50:59.780 +and there's a definite change this year. + +00:51:02.480 --> 00:51:02.980 +I did spend, usually I get into EmacsConf + +00:51:05.640 --> 00:51:06.040 +mode in late September when I start worrying + +00:51:07.900 --> 00:51:08.080 +about the CFP, the call for proposal is + +00:51:09.720 --> 00:51:10.080 +finishing, and then we need to start running + +00:51:12.580 --> 00:51:12.780 +after speakers to secure the proposals to + +00:51:13.860 --> 00:51:14.360 +make sure, oh, can you do this? + +00:51:16.500 --> 00:51:16.680 +Can you do maybe a 10-minute format instead + +00:51:17.400 --> 00:51:17.560 +of a 20-minute format, + +00:51:18.760 --> 00:51:19.260 +you know, all this jazzy stuff. + +00:51:21.820 --> 00:51:22.020 +And usually it kind of looks like Sasha for + +00:51:22.940 --> 00:51:23.400 +me in terms of involvement, + +00:51:24.900 --> 00:51:25.400 +or at least it did for the previous year. + +00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:29.300 +But this year, now that I've been gainfully + +00:51:30.220 --> 00:51:30.720 +employed as a software developer, + +00:51:33.760 --> 00:51:33.900 +I found it much harder to find the time to + +00:51:36.500 --> 00:51:36.660 +invest into MaxComp. But 1 of the things that + +00:51:39.520 --> 00:51:39.800 +allowed me to still stay efficient at my day + +00:51:42.100 --> 00:51:42.260 +job is the fact that I knew that Sasha and + +00:51:43.680 --> 00:51:44.180 +all the work that we did in previous years + +00:51:46.240 --> 00:51:46.560 +would come to help us organize this year's + +00:51:48.160 --> 00:51:48.560 +conference. And I'm not kidding, + +00:51:49.900 --> 00:51:50.140 +this year, I've been keeping an eye, + +00:51:51.300 --> 00:51:51.480 +obviously, and we've been chatting with all + +00:51:53.860 --> 00:51:54.340 +the organizers, but it's mostly been Sasha + +00:51:56.880 --> 00:51:57.080 +holding the fort from the end of the CFP in + +00:52:00.060 --> 00:52:00.560 +September to right about end of November. + +00:52:02.220 --> 00:52:02.720 +So I'll use the opportunity, + +00:52:04.780 --> 00:52:05.160 +as well my fellow co-organizers will, + +00:52:07.300 --> 00:52:07.480 +to thank you Sasha for putting so much time + +00:52:09.720 --> 00:52:09.900 +and energy into this. Not only Sasha from + +00:52:11.680 --> 00:52:11.920 +this year, but also Sasha from last year, + +00:52:12.840 --> 00:52:13.340 +and last year, and last year. + +00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:20.160 +And I will not be able to give you a figure + +00:52:20.840 --> 00:52:21.000 +of how much time it takes. + +00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:23.220 +I can tell you that the 2 days of Emacs Con + +00:52:28.180 --> 00:52:28.380 +are a bloody marathon because we cannot share + +00:52:31.060 --> 00:52:31.220 +our screens with you, but Sasha has given you + +00:52:32.220 --> 00:52:32.580 +a little bit of pointers about, + +00:52:34.080 --> 00:52:34.580 +you know, how much stuff we need to monitor. + +00:52:36.560 --> 00:52:36.820 +Sasha just switches constantly between + +00:52:38.860 --> 00:52:39.320 +workspaces. I just put everything on 1 + +00:52:41.400 --> 00:52:41.900 +workspace and my screen looks absolutely + +00:52:44.480 --> 00:52:44.920 +mental. And then I wonder why my microphone + +00:52:46.020 --> 00:52:46.520 +is clipping on BVB, I suppose. + +00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:47.540 +All right, that's all for me. + +00:52:48.900 --> 00:52:49.040 +Anyone wants to say anything about how much + +00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:50.420 +time it takes? Sasha, please. + +00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:53.000 +[Speaker 0]: I have a nice setup this year because I + +00:52:55.840 --> 00:52:55.960 +actually have a Matthew Lent donated a + +00:52:57.440 --> 00:52:57.660 +computer to me that can handle the big + +00:53:00.240 --> 00:53:00.420 +monitor and I'm stealing my husband's big + +00:53:01.100 --> 00:53:01.280 +monitor over there. See, + +00:53:02.240 --> 00:53:02.740 +So this is my setup today. + +00:53:05.600 --> 00:53:06.020 +It's got like conference stuff on my laptop + +00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:09.240 +and then just IOC on the other big screen and + +00:53:10.640 --> 00:53:11.000 +the 480p so I can see, + +00:53:12.340 --> 00:53:12.840 +I can make sure it doesn't fall down. + +00:53:14.900 --> 00:53:15.400 +Yes, so I have a nice setup today. + +00:53:22.260 --> 00:53:22.400 +[Speaker 4]: Anyone wants to comment about how much time + +00:53:24.160 --> 00:53:24.360 +it takes for them to organize the MaxCon for + +00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:25.940 +2, you know, including everything, + +00:53:26.580 --> 00:53:27.080 +be it the brainstorming, + +00:53:28.940 --> 00:53:29.440 +the answering volunteers and stuff like this? + +00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:31.640 +Or we can move to another question, + +00:53:31.800 --> 00:53:32.300 +of course. + +00:53:34.600 --> 00:53:34.960 +[Speaker 1]: I mean, I know for myself, + +00:53:36.180 --> 00:53:36.580 +I kind of dropped the ball this year, + +00:53:38.940 --> 00:53:39.440 +somewhat unintentionally or unintentionally. + +00:53:41.640 --> 00:53:42.040 +Well, yeah, I didn't have any other choice, + +00:53:44.280 --> 00:53:44.780 +basically, at least in like September through + +00:53:46.940 --> 00:53:47.440 +like early November or mid November. + +00:53:51.100 --> 00:53:51.500 +But I think like, it sort of differs, + +00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:52.820 +I guess, from year to year. + +00:53:53.520 --> 00:53:54.020 +Sometimes life happens, + +00:53:57.900 --> 00:53:58.400 +and no matter how much you would love to put + +00:53:59.540 --> 00:53:59.880 +a ton of time into something, + +00:54:01.620 --> 00:54:01.820 +you just can't. And maybe next year you can + +00:54:04.340 --> 00:54:04.540 +do a lot more. So I'm optimistic I'll be able + +00:54:07.080 --> 00:54:07.260 +to put in much more time into things for + +00:54:09.580 --> 00:54:10.080 +EmacsConf next year, but that's just me. + +00:54:12.360 --> 00:54:12.560 +[Speaker 4]: I just want to say something before Robin + +00:54:13.900 --> 00:54:14.400 +drops in. Sasha, go please first. + +00:54:18.800 --> 00:54:19.120 +[Speaker 0]: And I think people shouldn't like feel bad + +00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:20.780 +about having those. I think designing + +00:54:24.120 --> 00:54:24.280 +conference systems or processes so that they + +00:54:26.800 --> 00:54:27.300 +can take advantage of little pockets of time + +00:54:30.460 --> 00:54:30.680 +is the way to go. I love the fact that we now + +00:54:33.200 --> 00:54:33.360 +have a system where hosts can show up on the + +00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:35.680 +day of and just rock it, + +00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:37.380 +right? So this is great. + +00:54:41.580 --> 00:54:42.080 +It is good that we can get by with less time + +00:54:43.940 --> 00:54:44.120 +throughout the process and just take + +00:54:45.660 --> 00:54:46.160 +advantage of whatever time people have. + +00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:47.180 +Whether it's, you know, + +00:54:49.120 --> 00:54:49.280 +they've got 2 hours, they want to caption a + +00:54:51.560 --> 00:54:52.040 +talk, that sort of stuff is already totally + +00:54:52.040 --> 00:54:52.540 +awesome. + +00:54:57.480 --> 00:54:57.980 +[Speaker 3]: And yeah, you both, thank you. + +00:55:00.820 --> 00:55:01.020 +Yeah, you both stole my Thunder and then put + +00:55:03.880 --> 00:55:04.120 +a quarterback in me. I couldn't agree more + +00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:05.280 +with everything you said. + +00:55:09.020 --> 00:55:09.220 +That's something that just typifies what is + +00:55:10.360 --> 00:55:10.860 +amazing about this conference, + +00:55:12.340 --> 00:55:12.840 +right? It's a kind of accessibility, + +00:55:17.120 --> 00:55:17.500 +isn't it? Having some work I can give you + +00:55:19.380 --> 00:55:19.880 +that helps you give back to your community + +00:55:21.340 --> 00:55:21.840 +that is at your level, + +00:55:23.300 --> 00:55:23.800 +that fits your time budget, + +00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:27.120 +that is something that you're willing to go + +00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:28.780 +care about because it intersects, + +00:55:31.400 --> 00:55:31.780 +you know, the world you live in in some + +00:55:34.240 --> 00:55:34.540 +practical way and therefore you can make time + +00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:37.860 +for it. We all live in a lot of different + +00:55:40.520 --> 00:55:40.600 +trenches and making them intersect is 1 of + +00:55:42.500 --> 00:55:43.000 +the things Emacs does in a technical way + +00:55:43.820 --> 00:55:44.020 +[Speaker 5]: and + +00:55:47.260 --> 00:55:47.580 +[Speaker 3]: through this conference at least in a very + +00:55:51.100 --> 00:55:51.340 +community way. Okay, and it brings me back + +00:55:52.360 --> 00:55:52.680 +also on the OBS front. + +00:55:54.080 --> 00:55:54.240 +And I think that's what really excited me + +00:55:56.260 --> 00:55:56.580 +too. When I think about the potential that's + +00:55:59.440 --> 00:55:59.940 +out there and getting a bunch of people + +00:56:01.960 --> 00:56:02.080 +looking at the work you've already done with + +00:56:03.960 --> 00:56:04.440 +OBS WebSocket and thinking about, + +00:56:06.660 --> 00:56:06.960 +you know, oh, we want more timers that count + +00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:09.340 +things down and we want each organizer to be + +00:56:10.680 --> 00:56:11.040 +able to have a little palette of them, + +00:56:12.780 --> 00:56:12.940 +some of which are gonna be handed to you by + +00:56:14.620 --> 00:56:14.760 +the conference director and some of which you + +00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:17.240 +can add yourself because they help you and + +00:56:19.600 --> 00:56:20.020 +that's right. And, you know, + +00:56:21.780 --> 00:56:22.120 +have, you know, keeping things really fast + +00:56:24.120 --> 00:56:24.620 +and loose so we can make the artistic + +00:56:26.880 --> 00:56:27.340 +decisions on the fly that make our conference + +00:56:30.340 --> 00:56:30.840 +what it is, but then making, + +00:56:33.480 --> 00:56:33.740 +you know, a simple automated tool chain that + +00:56:36.380 --> 00:56:36.560 +anyone can learn and that we know how to + +00:56:37.700 --> 00:56:38.200 +execute the steps of manually. + +00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:41.280 +That's the actual design pattern that you've + +00:56:42.980 --> 00:56:43.480 +implemented here that's working so well. + +00:56:47.460 --> 00:56:47.580 +So the + +00:56:50.080 --> 00:56:50.540 +[Speaker 4]: 1 thing I wanted to ask about Amin saying, + +00:56:51.600 --> 00:56:52.100 +oh, I've dropped the ball this year. + +00:56:53.600 --> 00:56:53.940 +Amin's, just to be clear with everyone, + +00:56:55.380 --> 00:56:55.520 +Amin's definition of dropping the ball is + +00:56:56.940 --> 00:56:57.360 +securing a sponsorship with the FSF. + +00:56:58.680 --> 00:56:59.180 +So that's dropping the ball for you. + +00:57:02.320 --> 00:57:02.720 +[Speaker 3]: Well attending a weekly meeting, + +00:57:04.480 --> 00:57:04.640 +We take 1 week off a month where we + +00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:08.720 +coordinate infrastructure issues between this + +00:57:13.200 --> 00:57:13.440 +and other FSF supported projects using quote + +00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:14.820 +unquote GNU infrastructure. + +00:57:16.860 --> 00:57:17.360 +That's kind of a, GNU is really an umbrella + +00:57:19.220 --> 00:57:19.720 +term once you get kind of close to it. + +00:57:22.220 --> 00:57:22.400 +You know, it's like GNU is all of the + +00:57:25.020 --> 00:57:25.240 +volunteers helping with this vision we have + +00:57:25.840 --> 00:57:26.340 +of user rights. + +00:57:31.380 --> 00:57:31.560 +[Speaker 4]: 1 last thing I wanted to add about how much + +00:57:32.220 --> 00:57:32.480 +time we spend on this. + +00:57:33.900 --> 00:57:34.400 +It's just the fact that we've experimented + +00:57:36.180 --> 00:57:36.380 +over the 4 years I've been part of this. + +00:57:38.480 --> 00:57:38.760 +You know, the first year we had so many + +00:57:40.720 --> 00:57:40.840 +meetings because we thought this would be the + +00:57:42.640 --> 00:57:42.800 +way to know 1 another and this would be the + +00:57:44.280 --> 00:57:44.780 +way to create qualitative notes. + +00:57:46.520 --> 00:57:46.560 +And we've come back to this. + +00:57:48.180 --> 00:57:48.340 +[Speaker 3]: That is what I saw. I can't help but + +00:57:49.940 --> 00:57:50.440 +interrupt you again. This is all I do. + +00:57:52.080 --> 00:57:52.580 +Leo This is why I keep off the microphone + +00:57:54.060 --> 00:57:54.440 +until the last 20 minutes of the conference + +00:57:56.580 --> 00:57:56.760 +once everybody already wants to hang up Then + +00:57:58.940 --> 00:57:59.080 +I know you'll be honest with me But I have to + +00:58:01.880 --> 00:58:02.240 +say when I looked at that table of data all I + +00:58:05.280 --> 00:58:05.440 +saw was 200 hours of Sasha's life that she + +00:58:06.940 --> 00:58:07.240 +spent talking to the, you know, + +00:58:08.360 --> 00:58:08.680 +all many of us were involved. + +00:58:10.960 --> 00:58:11.320 +It's not just the 4 or 5 of us that, + +00:58:13.160 --> 00:58:13.460 +you know, that have done this last 2 years + +00:58:14.440 --> 00:58:14.940 +convention, right? It's, + +00:58:17.120 --> 00:58:17.260 +you know, there's been many people that have + +00:58:19.340 --> 00:58:19.780 +come in, shared wise thoughts, + +00:58:22.120 --> 00:58:22.420 +helping us form the, I don't know, + +00:58:24.400 --> 00:58:24.620 +ethos or all of the things that we're + +00:58:26.680 --> 00:58:27.180 +carrying forward into 2024. + +00:58:31.460 --> 00:58:31.960 +Sorry, Leo. + +00:58:32.640 --> 00:58:32.880 +[Speaker 1]: No, no, + +00:58:33.560 --> 00:58:33.940 +[Speaker 4]: you're fine, You're fine. + +00:58:35.980 --> 00:58:36.060 +I mean, you pretty much continued with what I + +00:58:37.500 --> 00:58:38.000 +was going to talk about. + +00:58:41.040 --> 00:58:41.540 +So I'm looking at the time and I've already + +00:58:44.640 --> 00:58:44.700 +extended by 5 minutes the amount of time I + +00:58:46.640 --> 00:58:46.800 +was supposed to stay and Flowy is looking at + +00:58:50.320 --> 00:58:50.660 +me with very teary eyes because he's thinking + +00:58:51.900 --> 00:58:52.280 +about the meeting he's going to have at 9am + +00:58:53.440 --> 00:58:53.940 +tomorrow, as will I by the way. + +00:58:54.720 --> 00:58:54.920 +Yeah, don't you have to + +00:58:56.380 --> 00:58:56.760 +[Speaker 3]: be commuting like right now Flowy? + +00:58:58.200 --> 00:58:58.700 +I mean aren't you supposed to be... + +00:59:01.560 --> 00:59:01.840 +I hope you get to sleep before work. + +00:59:04.820 --> 00:59:04.960 +Thank you so much for your awesome work this + +00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:05.460 +year. + +00:59:07.360 --> 00:59:07.680 +[Speaker 6]: I mean, I didn't do so much at the Emojis + +00:59:09.100 --> 00:59:09.600 +Conference, so I'm just here like from + +00:59:13.180 --> 00:59:13.320 +Friday. At first, I was looking at the + +00:59:14.760 --> 00:59:15.060 +website, which talks we're having, + +00:59:17.860 --> 00:59:18.040 +So it's all fine. So maybe next year or the + +00:59:19.740 --> 00:59:19.960 +coming year, I can do a little bit more + +00:59:19.960 --> 00:59:20.460 +privacy. + +00:59:23.260 --> 00:59:23.760 +[Speaker 4]: A little more, like again, + +00:59:25.920 --> 00:59:26.420 +like with Amin, Flowy's definition of doing, + +00:59:30.240 --> 00:59:30.400 +not having done much is hosting 1 of many of + +00:59:34.120 --> 00:59:34.240 +the Dev talks. So you could be kind of + +00:59:35.680 --> 00:59:36.140 +worried about it. All right, + +00:59:38.480 --> 00:59:38.720 +folks, considering the question that we have + +00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:40.640 +right now, we still see people adding + +00:59:42.260 --> 00:59:42.620 +questions, but I think we are all pretty + +00:59:44.960 --> 00:59:45.060 +tired and we need to get on with the rest of + +00:59:46.280 --> 00:59:46.780 +our weekends or nights. + +00:59:49.740 --> 00:59:50.080 +So do I go into parting words now everyone? + +00:59:50.720 --> 00:59:51.220 +Are we okay with this? + +00:59:55.280 --> 00:59:55.680 +I'll take this for a yes. + +00:59:56.780 --> 00:59:57.280 +I'll ask Sasha, yeah? + +01:00:00.780 --> 01:00:01.080 +[Speaker 0]: Oh I think I basically have until the kiddo + +01:00:03.560 --> 01:00:03.760 +yells at me to come for dinner so I can hang + +01:00:04.440 --> 01:00:04.940 +out with people after. + +01:00:09.240 --> 01:00:09.740 +and do the wrapping up. + +01:00:09.920 --> 01:00:10.080 +[Speaker 3]: But I + +01:00:10.080 --> 01:00:10.440 +[Speaker 4]: All right, splendid. Go ahead know, + +01:00:12.100 --> 01:00:12.600 +right, I'll do the wrapping up for the + +01:00:13.860 --> 01:00:14.040 +perhaps the stream. We might leave it up + +01:00:16.360 --> 01:00:16.700 +because there's no impetus for us to close + +01:00:20.100 --> 01:00:20.280 +it. But at least to officially close while + +01:00:22.340 --> 01:00:22.840 +we're still there, EmacsConf 2023, + +01:00:25.480 --> 01:00:25.900 +I will have again to thank everyone, + +01:00:28.200 --> 01:00:28.700 +all the speakers, all my co-organizers for + +01:00:31.020 --> 01:00:31.160 +making this possible. You've seen all the + +01:00:32.120 --> 01:00:32.260 +care that we put into it, + +01:00:34.900 --> 01:00:35.320 +and we are glad every year that all this work + +01:00:37.940 --> 01:00:38.440 +is doing something in terms of community + +01:00:41.420 --> 01:00:41.600 +building, in terms of leading more people to + +01:00:42.880 --> 01:00:43.380 +join us every year as speakers, + +01:00:45.040 --> 01:00:45.540 +or just join us as a user of Emacs. + +01:00:49.940 --> 01:00:50.100 +And it's always a pleasure to organize the + +01:00:51.140 --> 01:00:51.640 +conference, to host it, + +01:00:53.360 --> 01:00:53.620 +and to work with everyone in the room + +01:00:56.840 --> 01:00:57.340 +currently. Corwin and I are constantly joking + +01:00:59.640 --> 01:01:00.140 +when we are backstage making jokes. + +01:01:03.540 --> 01:01:03.840 +I think it's Corwin we said last year during + +01:01:06.620 --> 01:01:06.900 +the closing remarks that there was no other + +01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:09.500 +place they'd rather be than in the backstage. + +01:01:12.800 --> 01:01:12.940 +And for me, even though many things have + +01:01:15.040 --> 01:01:15.360 +changed in my life over the last year, + +01:01:16.240 --> 01:01:16.740 +many good things have happened, + +01:01:19.640 --> 01:01:19.860 +it's good to come back to Emacs Cons as this + +01:01:22.080 --> 01:01:22.580 +milestone and say, oh yeah, + +01:01:23.960 --> 01:01:24.220 +I'm exactly where I want to be, + +01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:25.820 +with the people I want to be with, + +01:01:29.020 --> 01:01:29.220 +and I see myself and I cannot wait to see + +01:01:30.660 --> 01:01:31.080 +myself again in the situation next year. + +01:01:32.080 --> 01:01:32.580 +So thank you so much everyone. + +01:01:34.440 --> 01:01:34.640 +If you want to join us, + +01:01:36.100 --> 01:01:36.180 +ask questions, we'll still be here for a + +01:01:37.360 --> 01:01:37.640 +while. Floey might drop out, + +01:01:39.520 --> 01:01:40.020 +I might drop out, Sasha might drop out, + +01:01:41.600 --> 01:01:41.880 +but we'll be here to answer as many questions + +01:01:43.140 --> 01:01:43.640 +as you want for as long as we can. + +01:01:46.120 --> 01:01:46.280 +Bye bye everyone and let's get started with + +01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:47.300 +the after show now. + +01:01:51.540 --> 01:01:52.040 +[Speaker 0]: Bye Leo, bye Chloe! I'll drop out eventually + +01:01:53.000 --> 01:01:53.500 +when the kiddo yells at me. + +01:01:56.200 --> 01:01:56.440 +[Speaker 3]: I can't tell you how much fun this is, + +01:01:58.260 --> 01:01:58.440 +yeah. The way to remember what I said, + +01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:00.700 +Leo, it's 100% true. Oh man, + +01:02:01.380 --> 01:02:01.640 +turning off your lights, + +01:02:02.880 --> 01:02:03.220 +I'm doing it. I'm doing it too. + +01:02:04.600 --> 01:02:04.900 +Sorry y'all. Oh, yeah, + +01:02:05.380 --> 01:02:05.880 +bye-bye lights + +01:02:10.440 --> 01:02:10.760 +[Speaker 4]: Yeah, that's every year that's how we finish + +01:02:12.340 --> 01:02:12.500 +we just turn off the the big lights that we + +01:02:14.240 --> 01:02:14.440 +have in our faces all the day especially the + +01:02:14.440 --> 01:02:14.940 +hosts + +01:02:19.120 --> 01:02:19.460 +[Speaker 3]: and Tell me if there's too much back chatter + +01:02:22.700 --> 01:02:23.200 +[Speaker 5]: get off my headphones, + +01:02:24.280 --> 01:02:24.720 +too, so I can + +01:02:25.260 --> 01:02:25.760 +[Speaker 3]: when I hear you in the room. + +01:02:28.860 --> 01:02:29.360 +Can I hear you now? Yeah. + +01:02:31.960 --> 01:02:32.460 +Is it feeding back pretty bad? + +01:02:34.480 --> 01:02:34.980 +[Speaker 1]: Hello? there is some echo. + +01:02:37.460 --> 01:02:37.960 +[Speaker 4]: Yeah, there is some echo. + +01:02:41.200 --> 01:02:41.380 +[Speaker 3]: I think Okay. Fine. I can live with my + +01:02:42.160 --> 01:02:42.660 +headset a little longer. + +01:02:44.860 --> 01:02:45.360 +I give 1 ear a break at a time. + +01:02:47.140 --> 01:02:47.640 +[Speaker 1]: Thanks for your sacrifice. + +01:02:50.060 --> 01:02:50.560 +[Speaker 3]: Oh, well, you know, it's a small, + +01:02:53.080 --> 01:02:53.360 +small, small price to pay to get to smooth + +01:02:56.600 --> 01:02:56.820 +with y'all. Yeah, I was just looking at that + +01:02:58.580 --> 01:02:58.820 +chart and I was thinking about all of those + +01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:01.560 +meetings that we had like 18 months we were + +01:03:05.900 --> 01:03:06.400 +just on this death march to organize this and + +01:03:09.240 --> 01:03:09.520 +it's just such an amazing accomplishment that + +01:03:11.960 --> 01:03:12.140 +you you have here Sasha like I'm sorry to + +01:03:14.540 --> 01:03:14.760 +pick on you personally but the work that you + +01:03:16.680 --> 01:03:17.180 +put in keep being able to keep it the whole + +01:03:18.760 --> 01:03:19.260 +technical project in your mind, + +01:03:21.580 --> 01:03:21.760 +all the way down to presenting it at this + +01:03:24.100 --> 01:03:24.480 +year's conference and like kind of spoon + +01:03:26.380 --> 01:03:26.520 +feeding it to people that want to run off in + +01:03:27.900 --> 01:03:28.260 +their own damn direction and then handing + +01:03:31.480 --> 01:03:31.880 +them an org is the 1 that people keep bugging + +01:03:33.440 --> 01:03:33.940 +us about. So if you're looking for a project, + +01:03:37.340 --> 01:03:37.840 +here it is. Just really well done. + +01:03:43.540 --> 01:03:43.980 +I no longer feel like we wasted a lot of time + +01:03:46.460 --> 01:03:46.680 +there. I mean, you remember I enjoyed so much + +01:03:48.600 --> 01:03:49.100 +all of our check ins and all of that stuff. + +01:03:51.420 --> 01:03:51.920 +But we had so many ideas, + +01:03:53.480 --> 01:03:53.980 +you can imagine that I wondered, + +01:03:56.980 --> 01:03:57.160 +you know, I wondered if we should have had + +01:03:58.520 --> 01:03:58.700 +more focused meetings and all that. + +01:04:01.100 --> 01:04:01.360 +And I was glad when we stopped having like + +01:04:04.240 --> 01:04:04.540 +weekly meetings, because you know what I mean + +01:04:06.980 --> 01:04:07.120 +To keep this much power in the room once a + +01:04:08.160 --> 01:04:08.660 +week, it feels creepy. + +01:04:10.560 --> 01:04:11.060 +This much intellectual power. + +01:04:18.525 --> 01:04:18.820 +Anyway, that's it. I think that's it for me. + +01:04:19.600 --> 01:04:19.760 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, and I'll say, I mean, + +01:04:22.280 --> 01:04:22.540 +I can't obviously speak for Sash or anyone + +01:04:24.840 --> 01:04:24.940 +else. Yeah, the regular meetings were a + +01:04:26.980 --> 01:04:27.180 +little bit intense than we had the year + +01:04:29.540 --> 01:04:29.680 +before, but I'm kind of also super glad that + +01:04:31.840 --> 01:04:32.040 +we did do them. And, you know, + +01:04:34.840 --> 01:04:34.960 +in a way, it did help us sort of connect and + +01:04:38.180 --> 01:04:38.360 +get to know each other much more regularly or + +01:04:41.200 --> 01:04:41.440 +much more which is great and I see thumbs up + +01:04:44.900 --> 01:04:45.060 +from Leo and Corwin so yeah happy we did + +01:04:49.080 --> 01:04:49.280 +them. Might want to have some kind of + +01:04:51.820 --> 01:04:52.040 +actually irregular ones every once in a while + +01:04:53.400 --> 01:04:53.860 +if we have to decide on something. + +01:04:55.240 --> 01:04:55.520 +But if like this year, + +01:04:57.400 --> 01:04:57.600 +everything can be worked out pretty much ad + +01:04:58.780 --> 01:04:59.020 +hoc, whenever needs be, + +01:05:00.480 --> 01:05:00.980 +like over asynchronous communications. + +01:05:03.640 --> 01:05:04.140 +I see Sasha nodding very excitedly. + +01:05:07.820 --> 01:05:08.320 +This also works. So yeah. + +01:05:10.920 --> 01:05:11.420 +And I also see some questions coming in here + +01:05:14.580 --> 01:05:15.040 +in BBB. If other folks want to join, + +01:05:16.280 --> 01:05:16.780 +please feel free to do that as well. + +01:05:18.800 --> 01:05:19.300 +Yeah, I don't think we have an issue tracker + +01:05:22.440 --> 01:05:22.860 +right now, but our whole website is a wiki. + +01:05:24.780 --> 01:05:25.280 +So if you wanna like create a new page or + +01:05:26.180 --> 01:05:26.480 +there might be a page, + +01:05:28.640 --> 01:05:28.780 +I don't know. You can of course go in and + +01:05:29.760 --> 01:05:30.260 +edit it to your heart's content. + +01:05:36.540 --> 01:05:37.040 +[Speaker 3]: Yeah. Hilarious, I couldn't, + +01:05:39.440 --> 01:05:39.600 +like I almost managed to type that as fast as + +01:05:40.760 --> 01:05:41.260 +you could say it, you know. + +01:05:43.840 --> 01:05:43.940 +That's fine. I get the same answer in the + +01:05:46.620 --> 01:05:46.800 +chat. Yep. Our website's a wiki and we + +01:05:48.060 --> 01:05:48.260 +definitely use ideas here. + +01:05:50.280 --> 01:05:50.540 +If you want to implement them or you know + +01:05:53.100 --> 01:05:53.440 +document them enough that even Corwin can + +01:05:55.240 --> 01:05:55.740 +code it then you know I'll do that. + +01:05:58.220 --> 01:05:58.380 +[Speaker 0]: Also I'll go through all the etherpads at + +01:06:00.240 --> 01:06:00.480 +some point to harvest them and I think I have + +01:06:02.240 --> 01:06:02.480 +yeah I have an Emacs list function that does + +01:06:05.020 --> 01:06:05.280 +this for me. So that I can go through that + +01:06:06.820 --> 01:06:07.280 +thing and include that in our organizers + +01:06:09.060 --> 01:06:09.280 +notebooks, lessons learned and ideas for next + +01:06:09.280 --> 01:06:09.780 +year. + +01:06:11.120 --> 01:06:11.620 +[Speaker 3]: Yeah. + +01:06:15.010 --> 01:06:15.060 +[Speaker 4]: Yeah, because something that you know, + +01:06:16.280 --> 01:06:16.720 +We were talking about the different models + +01:06:18.680 --> 01:06:18.840 +between having many, many meetings and how it + +01:06:20.280 --> 01:06:20.760 +paid off eventually. The thing is, + +01:06:22.160 --> 01:06:22.660 +this year we had no meetings. + +01:06:27.440 --> 01:06:27.660 +We met Friday morning on Mumble and we were + +01:06:29.540 --> 01:06:29.720 +ready to go. We did chat things up a little + +01:06:30.180 --> 01:06:30.660 +bit on ISE, obviously, + +01:06:31.780 --> 01:06:32.120 +but no meeting this year. + +01:06:33.420 --> 01:06:33.640 +So I'm tempted to say that, + +01:06:34.800 --> 01:06:35.080 +yes, we could have off-hand meetings, + +01:06:36.360 --> 01:06:36.480 +but I think it's mostly because we want to + +01:06:38.240 --> 01:06:38.680 +see 1 another, not because we need + +01:06:40.680 --> 01:06:41.160 +necessarily for those meetings to prepare + +01:06:45.480 --> 01:06:45.660 +Emacs cons. But what I wanted to say as well + +01:06:49.740 --> 01:06:50.200 +is that I think it's a testament to the bets + +01:06:52.940 --> 01:06:53.140 +that Sasha took last year to automatize a lot + +01:06:54.520 --> 01:06:54.720 +of things. I mean, we'd already been + +01:06:55.760 --> 01:06:56.120 +automatizing a lot of stuff, + +01:06:58.260 --> 01:06:58.760 +like writing scripts for every single thing + +01:07:02.220 --> 01:07:02.600 +in ESPire, but last year we made a big bet to + +01:07:04.600 --> 01:07:04.920 +say, what if we had OBS in the cloud? + +01:07:06.580 --> 01:07:06.760 +What if we had a streaming platform that was + +01:07:08.680 --> 01:07:08.860 +running on a machine? And this is what + +01:07:11.660 --> 01:07:12.100 +allowed us to very smoothly have 2 tracks, + +01:07:13.380 --> 01:07:13.880 +the general track and the dev track. + +01:07:16.640 --> 01:07:16.980 +And I think the beauty of this system is + +01:07:19.680 --> 01:07:19.840 +that, obviously, because we get more and more + +01:07:20.720 --> 01:07:21.220 +speakers submitting talks, + +01:07:22.800 --> 01:07:23.100 +we are starting to think maybe we actually + +01:07:26.480 --> 01:07:26.740 +need a third track or something and no 1 is + +01:07:28.580 --> 01:07:29.080 +stressed in the room when Sasha says this. + +01:07:31.100 --> 01:07:31.360 +You know, there's not the reaction that's + +01:07:32.320 --> 01:07:32.540 +like, oh no it's gonna be tough, + +01:07:33.200 --> 01:07:33.620 +we're gonna need more hosts, + +01:07:34.480 --> 01:07:34.980 +organizers, it's just a calm... + +01:07:37.580 --> 01:07:38.040 +[Speaker 3]: Now, point of order, Now Flowy is stressed + +01:07:39.000 --> 01:07:39.500 +when Sasha says this. + +01:07:44.640 --> 01:07:45.060 +[Speaker 4]: That was just a- + +01:07:46.640 --> 01:07:46.800 +[Speaker 0]: I didn't know, Colin, we could put you in the + +01:07:47.720 --> 01:07:47.880 +spot next year. You'd be like, + +01:07:49.200 --> 01:07:49.400 +you know, hey, Colin, what do you feel about + +01:07:49.400 --> 01:07:49.900 +hosting? + +01:07:53.300 --> 01:07:53.800 +[Speaker 3]: You know, I'm happy to do it. + +01:07:56.960 --> 01:07:57.260 +And I feel, I mean, just to jump in there and + +01:07:59.540 --> 01:08:00.040 +say, yes, exactly. No, + +01:08:01.400 --> 01:08:01.560 +there's no concern on the part of the + +01:08:03.220 --> 01:08:03.720 +organizer committee that we could expand + +01:08:06.000 --> 01:08:06.180 +this. If you said we needed to expand to 4 + +01:08:08.400 --> 01:08:08.900 +tracks, I think we would gulp and consider + +01:08:10.080 --> 01:08:10.360 +it, you know, from there, + +01:08:11.040 --> 01:08:11.540 +it gets a little crazy, + +01:08:13.980 --> 01:08:14.260 +but strictly because there aren't that many + +01:08:16.399 --> 01:08:16.899 +people that we know want to commit. + +01:08:18.120 --> 01:08:18.399 +What did we see there? + +01:08:20.600 --> 01:08:20.939 +80 hours of potential work that, + +01:08:23.000 --> 01:08:23.200 +you know, that could go into organizing next + +01:08:25.439 --> 01:08:25.580 +year's conference if you find that it's a + +01:08:26.979 --> 01:08:27.399 +rabbit hole for you and being a streamer + +01:08:28.979 --> 01:08:29.140 +means you want to read every email and + +01:08:31.500 --> 01:08:31.819 +respond to every, as Sasha has done this last + +01:08:34.439 --> 01:08:34.819 +year, right? So when I look at her numbers + +01:08:35.359 --> 01:08:35.859 +for total participation, + +01:08:38.000 --> 01:08:38.500 +that's really a high watermark. + +01:08:43.439 --> 01:08:43.939 +Sasha really took care of this convention, + +01:08:46.680 --> 01:08:47.180 +you know, like a producer might. + +01:08:52.240 --> 01:08:52.660 +And the fact that what used to take 200 hours + +01:08:56.000 --> 01:08:56.260 +before, I mean, I can't harp enough on the + +01:08:57.720 --> 01:08:57.979 +story that that's telling you, + +01:09:00.399 --> 01:09:00.800 +right? And as I think about it with a project + +01:09:01.800 --> 01:09:02.080 +manager hat on, right? + +01:09:02.960 --> 01:09:03.160 +I'm saying, okay, well, + +01:09:07.080 --> 01:09:07.580 +that's, you know, that work can potentially + +01:09:09.800 --> 01:09:09.960 +be amplified to many thousands of hours of + +01:09:11.800 --> 01:09:11.920 +work, considering the automation and the + +01:09:13.279 --> 01:09:13.439 +potential for bringing people in. + +01:09:14.540 --> 01:09:14.800 +So if you thought about it as a money-making + +01:09:16.319 --> 01:09:16.520 +thing, If we were trying to make money by + +01:09:16.960 --> 01:09:17.460 +having these conventions, + +01:09:19.040 --> 01:09:19.540 +you would think we have a very profitable + +01:09:23.760 --> 01:09:24.000 +business here because we can amplify the + +01:09:25.640 --> 01:09:25.939 +talent that walks in the door really + +01:09:28.140 --> 01:09:28.640 +effectively, if that makes sense, + +01:09:29.800 --> 01:09:30.300 +through the tools and the training. + +01:09:33.800 --> 01:09:33.960 +[Speaker 0]: So we should clarify that if anyone wants to + +01:09:35.920 --> 01:09:36.180 +volunteer as a host or just check in, + +01:09:38.300 --> 01:09:38.380 +let's just talk host. It's really just a + +01:09:40.080 --> 01:09:40.580 +matter of showing up, making sure your BVB + +01:09:42.160 --> 01:09:42.439 +works so you can talk. + +01:09:43.260 --> 01:09:43.620 +If you want to share your webcam, + +01:09:44.899 --> 01:09:45.040 +you can. You can skip it if you don't want + +01:09:46.359 --> 01:09:46.859 +to. You can share the screen with the pad. + +01:09:48.640 --> 01:09:48.800 +And then you just sit there and you chat with + +01:09:51.260 --> 01:09:51.399 +a speaker and you read the questions off the + +01:09:53.240 --> 01:09:53.399 +pad in case they don't read the questions off + +01:09:56.740 --> 01:09:57.240 +themselves. So it can be a very low effort, + +01:09:59.440 --> 01:09:59.940 +low stress way to get into it and just there + +01:10:02.840 --> 01:10:03.000 +kind of helping the speaker have somebody to + +01:10:05.540 --> 01:10:05.820 +talk to. It doesn't have to take 80 hours. + +01:10:08.220 --> 01:10:08.720 +It can take 2 hours and that's cool. + +01:10:10.680 --> 01:10:10.840 +[Speaker 3]: And the same, and that's just like the + +01:10:11.820 --> 01:10:12.040 +transcription task. Yeah, + +01:10:13.700 --> 01:10:13.980 +sorry, I probably missed the lead there, + +01:10:16.080 --> 01:10:16.360 +right? Every individual part of this is + +01:10:19.160 --> 01:10:19.660 +really easy. So it's an open-ended commitment + +01:10:22.360 --> 01:10:22.860 +to come and kind of meet a part of the + +01:10:24.840 --> 01:10:25.340 +committee, a part of the community, + +01:10:27.040 --> 01:10:27.540 +right? To come in and say, + +01:10:29.440 --> 01:10:29.940 +maybe you're really excited about org, + +01:10:33.420 --> 01:10:33.600 +you could review talks and just review the + +01:10:35.420 --> 01:10:35.660 +org ones. There's not an obligation that says + +01:10:37.440 --> 01:10:37.800 +you're going to look at every talk that's + +01:10:40.520 --> 01:10:40.640 +submitted, right? Share your thoughts on the + +01:10:42.500 --> 01:10:42.660 +talks that you have a chance to review the + +01:10:44.440 --> 01:10:44.900 +proposals. That's the submissions review + +01:10:48.040 --> 01:10:48.540 +part, right? So there's a way to help with + +01:10:51.820 --> 01:10:52.120 +almost any appetite for I'd like a little + +01:10:54.520 --> 01:10:54.780 +extra work in the Emacs department here like + +01:10:56.480 --> 01:10:56.640 +if you want to feel like you're part of the + +01:10:59.600 --> 01:10:59.800 +team this this team is really easy to get + +01:11:02.440 --> 01:11:02.710 +[Speaker 7]: think that's + +01:11:03.680 --> 01:11:03.840 +[Speaker 3]: involved with. I I mean, + +01:11:04.280 --> 01:11:04.440 +please. Go ahead, + +01:11:06.820 --> 01:11:07.320 +[Speaker 4]: No, no, please. I've talked enough. + +01:11:08.940 --> 01:11:09.100 +[Speaker 1]: sort of the... Leo. Well, + +01:11:10.380 --> 01:11:10.660 +I don't get tired of hearing you talk, + +01:11:13.000 --> 01:11:13.500 +but yeah, I was going to say, + +01:11:16.920 --> 01:11:17.320 +Yeah, I feel like that's the general message + +01:11:19.600 --> 01:11:19.920 +here is that we're all just a bunch of people + +01:11:21.360 --> 01:11:21.860 +who are interested in this. + +01:11:24.060 --> 01:11:24.560 +And of course, being humans, + +01:11:26.120 --> 01:11:26.280 +each of us have different kinds of lives and + +01:11:27.560 --> 01:11:27.720 +different kinds of availabilities and + +01:11:28.260 --> 01:11:28.760 +different kinds of interests. + +01:11:29.860 --> 01:11:30.360 +And there is something for everybody, + +01:11:34.300 --> 01:11:34.540 +both in terms of the kinds of tasks that you + +01:11:37.480 --> 01:11:37.760 +need doing, but also in terms of the amount + +01:11:39.980 --> 01:11:40.480 +of time that you want or are able to put in. + +01:11:43.780 --> 01:11:44.080 +So yes, if you do think this is something + +01:11:46.240 --> 01:11:46.700 +that you might be interested in helping with + +01:11:47.980 --> 01:11:48.400 +for future additions and such, + +01:11:51.140 --> 01:11:51.340 +or even some of the post-conference work that + +01:11:52.300 --> 01:11:52.800 +needs doing after this year. + +01:11:55.800 --> 01:11:55.960 +Please reach out there's something for + +01:11:57.440 --> 01:11:57.940 +everybody and I would love to have + +01:12:03.020 --> 01:12:03.360 +[Speaker 6]: you. I can confirm there was an easy access + +01:12:06.260 --> 01:12:06.500 +so I came here last year just doing some + +01:12:08.600 --> 01:12:09.100 +checking in and the process of getting, + +01:12:10.840 --> 01:12:11.120 +it's called a trained in was really, + +01:12:12.520 --> 01:12:12.620 +really short. There was a lot of + +01:12:13.700 --> 01:12:14.200 +documentation how to do something. + +01:12:17.720 --> 01:12:17.920 +I mean, there's a pad that gets sent and what + +01:12:20.540 --> 01:12:20.660 +to do, when to do, and what to ask is like + +01:12:22.160 --> 01:12:22.660 +really incredible. So thank you for that. + +01:12:26.320 --> 01:12:26.820 +Just come here, write an email, + +01:12:28.860 --> 01:12:29.200 +join us. It's really, really cool. + +01:12:30.920 --> 01:12:31.420 +And it's a great experience to be honest. + +01:12:35.680 --> 01:12:35.900 +[Speaker 4]: Thank you. And while Sasha is speaking about + +01:12:36.820 --> 01:12:37.280 +the update of the wiki, + +01:12:38.320 --> 01:12:38.820 +oh Coleman did you want to say something? + +01:12:41.140 --> 01:12:41.600 +[Speaker 3]: No I was just I was just gonna embarrass + +01:12:44.240 --> 01:12:44.740 +Floey Coder further but you go ahead. + +01:12:51.000 --> 01:12:51.200 +I was just gonna say I think you're pretty + +01:12:52.420 --> 01:12:52.900 +quick, you're pretty quick, + +01:12:55.320 --> 01:12:55.820 +you took to it really quickly or you show + +01:12:57.240 --> 01:12:57.740 +just kind of a reflexive calm. + +01:12:59.340 --> 01:12:59.720 +Like you know how to not talk over people. + +01:13:01.200 --> 01:13:01.700 +You're already better at it than I am. + +01:13:06.500 --> 01:13:07.000 +Now, you know, I think, + +01:13:09.000 --> 01:13:09.280 +yeah, I hope you're enjoying the new stuff + +01:13:10.600 --> 01:13:10.720 +that you're starting to take on because you + +01:13:12.040 --> 01:13:12.540 +seem to be doing great with it. + +01:13:14.220 --> 01:13:14.500 +And yeah, I hope you're not sitting there + +01:13:15.720 --> 01:13:16.080 +thinking that you're taking, + +01:13:17.960 --> 01:13:18.340 +you know, that you're coming on, + +01:13:19.700 --> 01:13:19.920 +that you're not taking on enough + +01:13:21.420 --> 01:13:21.680 +responsibility or anything like that, + +01:13:23.100 --> 01:13:23.600 +or I don't know, maybe. + +01:13:26.040 --> 01:13:26.240 +I picked up like a little undercurrent of + +01:13:28.100 --> 01:13:28.380 +like, I don't do that much, + +01:13:31.440 --> 01:13:31.940 +and I hope you don't feel that way because I + +01:13:33.719 --> 01:13:34.219 +just enjoyed really having your help the last + +01:13:38.680 --> 01:13:39.180 +couple of years. Thank you very much. + +01:13:47.640 --> 01:13:47.720 +[Speaker 4]: Yeah, that's how they get you, + +01:13:48.560 --> 01:13:48.680 +you know, they just tell you, + +01:13:49.340 --> 01:13:49.840 +oh, could you do check-ins? + +01:13:51.820 --> 01:13:52.180 +Like I showed up for 4 years ago saying, + +01:13:54.660 --> 01:13:55.080 +oh, I'd like to help and look at me now. + +01:13:56.780 --> 01:13:57.040 +I think I did I host on the first year? + +01:13:57.800 --> 01:13:58.300 +I'm pretty sure I did. + +01:14:00.020 --> 01:14:00.420 +Like it took 2 months basically of onboarding + +01:14:02.960 --> 01:14:03.160 +to convince me to do some of the hosting and + +01:14:06.820 --> 01:14:07.000 +back then oh it was so tough for us to do the + +01:14:08.440 --> 01:14:08.680 +hosting because we didn't have all the fancy + +01:14:10.320 --> 01:14:10.680 +setup we have this year and we were + +01:14:13.680 --> 01:14:14.180 +struggling with OBS with bid rates with + +01:14:18.160 --> 01:14:18.340 +sharing scenes I'm glad we are where we are + +01:14:20.460 --> 01:14:20.760 +today, where I don't have to worry as much + +01:14:21.880 --> 01:14:22.120 +about this. But it's also nice, + +01:14:24.440 --> 01:14:24.580 +it's also 1 thing, we do have a culture of + +01:14:25.760 --> 01:14:26.260 +documentation as Sasha exemplified, + +01:14:28.140 --> 01:14:28.640 +and like Flo mentioned, + +01:14:29.540 --> 01:14:29.820 +documentation on the roles. + +01:14:33.060 --> 01:14:33.560 +Yes, We did do this to help people join us. + +01:14:39.360 --> 01:14:39.840 +But really, I'm the host of General, + +01:14:41.660 --> 01:14:41.840 +but it could be just anyone else because we + +01:14:43.780 --> 01:14:44.020 +have so much documentation on how to do + +01:14:46.560 --> 01:14:46.780 +things. Obviously, when a co-organizer is + +01:14:48.740 --> 01:14:48.900 +doing a role, we tend to have an eye on how + +01:14:49.740 --> 01:14:50.160 +the infrastructure is going. + +01:14:51.820 --> 01:14:52.320 +But really, if you want to join us, + +01:14:54.720 --> 01:14:54.940 +we will make sure that the jobs that you + +01:14:57.240 --> 01:14:57.500 +have, first, you like them and it's something + +01:14:59.440 --> 01:14:59.640 +that interests you, and we will also make + +01:15:04.180 --> 01:15:04.400 +sure that on our end, everything goes well + +01:15:06.140 --> 01:15:06.640 +for you. Like we'll be monitoring the streams + +01:15:08.540 --> 01:15:09.040 +and every time we have a new person join us, + +01:15:13.500 --> 01:15:14.000 +it is as much energy and mental availability + +01:15:17.780 --> 01:15:18.220 +to invest into, oh, maybe we could do this. + +01:15:19.800 --> 01:15:19.940 +Oh, 0, we have a fire going out because the + +01:15:21.320 --> 01:15:21.820 +speaker hasn't checked in yet. + +01:15:24.060 --> 01:15:24.560 +So it's all about sharing expertise, + +01:15:27.180 --> 01:15:27.260 +it's all about making people level up in + +01:15:28.520 --> 01:15:29.020 +terms of skills that are really useful. + +01:15:34.120 --> 01:15:34.280 +I will attribute a lot of my success in + +01:15:35.920 --> 01:15:36.120 +public speaking to the work I do with + +01:15:38.620 --> 01:15:39.120 +EmacsConf, and I'm sure plenty of people + +01:15:43.420 --> 01:15:43.620 +would gain from joining us and learning these + +01:15:47.440 --> 01:15:47.940 +skills. All right, It's about 30 minutes past + +01:15:49.740 --> 01:15:49.920 +the official time. Do we want to go a little + +01:15:51.180 --> 01:15:51.680 +longer? Are we still available to go? + +01:15:55.180 --> 01:15:55.680 +All right, well, let's keep going. + +01:16:00.443 --> 01:16:00.486 +I don't see any more people joining us on the + +01:16:00.660 --> 01:16:00.703 +[Speaker 1]: We have Bob, + +01:16:01.240 --> 01:16:01.720 +[Speaker 4]: Blue Button. who was 1 of the speakers today + +01:16:03.940 --> 01:16:04.200 +in the room. Bob, do you want to maybe unmute + +01:16:05.400 --> 01:16:05.900 +yourself and ask us some questions? + +01:16:08.420 --> 01:16:08.720 +Or just thank us. I mean, + +01:16:09.480 --> 01:16:09.840 +I'm just begging for something. + +01:16:10.920 --> 01:16:11.420 +But I know you've been very helpful. + +01:16:15.340 --> 01:16:15.720 +[Speaker 5]: Yes. How are you? No, I've really had fun. + +01:16:18.340 --> 01:16:18.600 +No, I'm exhausted. I'm exhausted for you, + +01:16:22.800 --> 01:16:23.300 +I think. So I learned something. + +01:16:25.040 --> 01:16:25.460 +Everybody wants to record their videos, + +01:16:26.460 --> 01:16:26.940 +which of course, is great, + +01:16:28.380 --> 01:16:28.480 +and then you have the subtitles and + +01:16:31.560 --> 01:16:32.040 +everything. But I saved a lot of time by + +01:16:35.600 --> 01:16:35.740 +doing it live this year and not going in and + +01:16:38.040 --> 01:16:38.200 +tweaking and doing all the editing and + +01:16:39.440 --> 01:16:39.860 +spending all the time that we do. + +01:16:42.480 --> 01:16:42.720 +And it was kind of fun to do it that way too. + +01:16:44.900 --> 01:16:45.400 +So just a little note there. + +01:16:48.340 --> 01:16:48.640 +But I look forward to seeing 1 of my talks + +01:16:53.760 --> 01:16:53.940 +subtitled someday. So no, + +01:16:55.240 --> 01:16:55.740 +I love what you do. It's fun. + +01:16:57.660 --> 01:16:57.900 +I've only seen part of Sasha's talk, + +01:17:00.660 --> 01:17:01.000 +so I'll go and review that about how you're + +01:17:03.840 --> 01:17:04.340 +automating all this. You know, + +01:17:06.560 --> 01:17:06.680 +it's a little sad for me personally that of + +01:17:09.080 --> 01:17:09.580 +course, Org gets all the attention, + +01:17:14.060 --> 01:17:14.340 +but you know, we're exposing hyperbole more + +01:17:16.820 --> 01:17:17.240 +now and There's definitely a growing interest + +01:17:18.800 --> 01:17:19.020 +on Reddit and you know, + +01:17:20.140 --> 01:17:20.640 +I think it's kind of like EmacsConf. + +01:17:23.680 --> 01:17:23.900 +Give it a few years. We went away for a long + +01:17:24.840 --> 01:17:25.340 +time and then we came back. + +01:17:30.420 --> 01:17:30.880 +We'll start to see it permeate the Emacs + +01:17:33.160 --> 01:17:33.660 +first. But I was thinking that, + +01:17:36.720 --> 01:17:36.960 +you know, I think people who like Emacs and + +01:17:38.340 --> 01:17:38.840 +stuff, they read things online, + +01:17:40.920 --> 01:17:41.420 +they come to this conference, + +01:17:43.620 --> 01:17:43.940 +but we're always hearing about, + +01:17:44.620 --> 01:17:45.120 +well, the next generation. + +01:17:47.260 --> 01:17:47.500 +We have to deal with that. + +01:17:50.000 --> 01:17:50.160 +And I think a lot of people get exposed to + +01:17:52.900 --> 01:17:53.120 +Emacs in college. Now a professor turns them + +01:17:55.080 --> 01:17:55.460 +on to it and makes them use it, + +01:17:57.100 --> 01:17:57.600 +and then they go out into the real world, + +01:17:59.720 --> 01:18:00.220 +and there's no encouragement anymore, + +01:18:01.460 --> 01:18:01.960 +and they just drop it. + +01:18:05.600 --> 01:18:05.980 +And with all of what you're putting together + +01:18:09.280 --> 01:18:09.720 +here, it seems like if there was some reach + +01:18:14.120 --> 01:18:14.620 +out to universities and college students, + +01:18:18.600 --> 01:18:19.100 +You know, we might get a whole new big crowd + +01:18:22.360 --> 01:18:22.580 +of people coming in. You know, + +01:18:25.200 --> 01:18:25.320 +just as I think OREG has really attracted a + +01:18:26.840 --> 01:18:27.340 +lot of people in the sciences, + +01:18:30.060 --> 01:18:30.440 +since that's what it was originally developed + +01:18:32.500 --> 01:18:32.860 +for. So just a thought, + +01:18:35.740 --> 01:18:35.900 +you know, maybe if you get any volunteers who + +01:18:38.440 --> 01:18:38.940 +can help in the reach out or just, + +01:18:40.320 --> 01:18:40.560 +you know, sending things around to + +01:18:43.780 --> 01:18:44.020 +universities that might really extend who + +01:18:45.060 --> 01:18:45.560 +gets exposed to this stuff. + +01:18:49.240 --> 01:18:49.480 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I think that's a great and very + +01:18:51.960 --> 01:18:52.020 +interesting idea. And it sort of touches on a + +01:18:52.600 --> 01:18:53.000 +couple of different things. + +01:18:53.640 --> 01:18:54.140 +Sort of like you mentioned, + +01:18:56.180 --> 01:18:56.400 +well, with org, it sort of really drew into + +01:19:00.060 --> 01:19:00.560 +sciences, folks. It would be interesting to + +01:19:03.280 --> 01:19:03.780 +see other parts of Emacs doing that for other + +01:19:05.740 --> 01:19:06.240 +kinds of communities, but also specifically, + +01:19:08.920 --> 01:19:09.420 +I guess, for colleges and universities. + +01:19:14.220 --> 01:19:14.680 +Yeah, it would be cool if we had local groups + +01:19:17.140 --> 01:19:17.300 +or local meetups, because so far right now, + +01:19:20.140 --> 01:19:20.420 +I think the most common ones are like by city + +01:19:22.280 --> 01:19:22.440 +like for example a Toronto Emacs meetup or + +01:19:25.320 --> 01:19:25.760 +something like that yeah if you could maybe + +01:19:28.820 --> 01:19:29.320 +encourage or help foster a university level + +01:19:32.200 --> 01:19:32.520 +type of thing you know University of blah + +01:19:35.360 --> 01:19:35.860 +blah Emacs group or something like that and + +01:19:39.860 --> 01:19:40.080 +you know seeing what their needs would be or + +01:19:42.860 --> 01:19:43.360 +trying to think also what features of Emacs + +01:19:46.260 --> 01:19:46.560 +would be very useful in an academic slash + +01:19:48.680 --> 01:19:48.920 +educational setting. Yeah, + +01:19:50.460 --> 01:19:50.840 +lots of food for thought there. + +01:19:52.120 --> 01:19:52.620 +So thank you for mentioning this. + +01:20:02.420 --> 01:20:02.920 +[Speaker 5]: Sure. And I guess, yeah, + +01:20:04.400 --> 01:20:04.900 +OBS is coming up here. + +01:20:06.820 --> 01:20:07.040 +I worked with that a bit, + +01:20:08.920 --> 01:20:09.240 +yes, last year. You know, + +01:20:12.040 --> 01:20:12.540 +another powerful piece of software with a + +01:20:15.240 --> 01:20:15.740 +sort of, I think, a weak user interface, + +01:20:20.080 --> 01:20:20.540 +you know, for the newbies coming along on it. + +01:20:23.200 --> 01:20:23.700 +And maybe, you know, if there's, + +01:20:25.920 --> 01:20:26.420 +if that's kind of what people use, + +01:20:29.540 --> 01:20:29.700 +figuring out or putting some information in + +01:20:32.740 --> 01:20:33.240 +the wiki about how to do that, + +01:20:34.900 --> 01:20:35.400 +you know, work with it or... + +01:20:36.300 --> 01:20:36.800 +[Speaker 4]: Oh, good idea. + +01:20:43.140 --> 01:20:43.340 +[Speaker 3]: I can comment. It is definitely the + +01:20:46.420 --> 01:20:46.920 +preeminent streamer software out there, + +01:20:49.120 --> 01:20:49.620 +well beyond the free software community. + +01:20:54.120 --> 01:20:54.500 +It's used by most streamers on Twitch and + +01:20:59.680 --> 01:20:59.960 +other like commercial for-profit things but + +01:21:01.780 --> 01:21:02.220 +of course those companies are making money + +01:21:04.480 --> 01:21:04.700 +off people trying to give money to the + +01:21:07.200 --> 01:21:07.440 +streamers. Those streamers aren't getting any + +01:21:10.160 --> 01:21:10.660 +software help. So actually most of them are + +01:21:13.900 --> 01:21:14.400 +dependent for their income on free software + +01:21:18.680 --> 01:21:18.900 +like OBS and OBS in specific or by some kind + +01:21:23.100 --> 01:21:23.600 +of forked brand name is the primary tool. + +01:21:28.660 --> 01:21:28.820 +[Speaker 4]: If I'm not mistaken I believe Stefan has + +01:21:29.860 --> 01:21:30.360 +joined us right now in the room. + +01:21:33.240 --> 01:21:33.420 +I'm putting you on the spot, + +01:21:34.480 --> 01:21:34.760 +if you want to stay muted you can. + +01:21:35.640 --> 01:21:36.140 +Oh, you have unmuted yourself. + +01:21:38.400 --> 01:21:38.900 +[Speaker 7]: I managed to click the unmute button. + +01:21:41.180 --> 01:21:41.680 +Yes, I'm here. How are you guys doing? + +01:21:43.840 --> 01:21:44.200 +[Speaker 4]: Doing good, surviving here. + +01:21:44.200 --> 01:21:44.700 +[Speaker 1]: Congratulations. + +01:21:45.480 --> 01:21:45.980 +[Speaker 4]: Late in your time. + +01:21:50.040 --> 01:21:50.220 +[Speaker 7]: Really amazing work organizing the + +01:21:51.960 --> 01:21:52.460 +conference. I really have to congratulate + +01:21:56.120 --> 01:21:56.480 +everyone. So I just hopped on here to sort of + +01:21:58.140 --> 01:21:58.640 +say that I'm extremely impressed. + +01:22:04.240 --> 01:22:04.540 +And I think this is an example to follow for + +01:22:07.040 --> 01:22:07.440 +other conferences and for Emacs in general. + +01:22:09.400 --> 01:22:09.900 +I think we need more of this community-type + +01:22:12.940 --> 01:22:13.380 +organizing and just getting people interested + +01:22:15.960 --> 01:22:16.240 +and involved on all kinds of levels can only + +01:22:20.200 --> 01:22:20.340 +help Emacs. Because we are in this for the + +01:22:22.540 --> 01:22:23.040 +long haul. That's it. + +01:22:25.280 --> 01:22:25.780 +[Speaker 3]: Oh, what a great point. + +01:22:28.500 --> 01:22:28.740 +If I can comment, that's 1 of the things that + +01:22:30.720 --> 01:22:31.020 +drew me to trying to contribute to free + +01:22:32.580 --> 01:22:32.960 +software when I was a kid, + +01:22:35.580 --> 01:22:36.080 +like we're talking now 30 plus years ago, + +01:22:38.360 --> 01:22:38.860 +the idea like, and I recognized it from + +01:22:42.180 --> 01:22:42.620 +Stallman's initial manifestos on the topic, + +01:22:45.060 --> 01:22:45.360 +right? He was clearly in this for the long + +01:22:47.040 --> 01:22:47.540 +haul. Like I am building the library of + +01:22:50.500 --> 01:22:50.740 +Alexandria here and like linking the work + +01:22:52.420 --> 01:22:52.580 +that we're trying to do to community that I + +01:22:54.640 --> 01:22:54.900 +don't know how you could touch my heart you + +01:22:57.620 --> 01:22:57.840 +know more surely because that's that's + +01:22:59.440 --> 01:22:59.940 +exactly what we want to do not necessarily + +01:23:03.800 --> 01:23:04.300 +any given talk or comment but the idea that + +01:23:07.960 --> 01:23:08.460 +we have to get together and share our ideas + +01:23:10.900 --> 01:23:11.400 +and the place that we do that has to be just + +01:23:14.380 --> 01:23:14.880 +has to be a buffet and not a crucible. + +01:23:17.620 --> 01:23:17.800 +[Speaker 7]: And look, we're standing on the shoulders of + +01:23:19.400 --> 01:23:19.840 +giants, really, when we're looking at Emacs + +01:23:21.100 --> 01:23:21.600 +and sort of what we have achieved. + +01:23:24.680 --> 01:23:24.840 +And the galaxy of talent that exists in the + +01:23:27.040 --> 01:23:27.540 +Emacs community is also like truly + +01:23:30.800 --> 01:23:31.300 +impressive, I think. So There's a lot of work + +01:23:34.280 --> 01:23:34.780 +to be done, but we've also achieved some + +01:23:37.120 --> 01:23:37.480 +pretty impressive things so far. + +01:23:38.620 --> 01:23:39.120 +So let's just keep at it. + +01:23:43.200 --> 01:23:43.700 +I'm sure we'll have a fantastic future for + +01:23:44.180 --> 01:23:44.680 +Emacs. + +01:23:52.540 --> 01:23:53.040 +[Speaker 5]: You know, I'm kind of interested in what + +01:23:56.540 --> 01:23:57.040 +Stefan's here. You know, + +01:24:00.400 --> 01:24:00.900 +just the common tropes that go around. + +01:24:05.320 --> 01:24:05.740 +I just hear it so much on the net, + +01:24:07.540 --> 01:24:08.040 +you know, is Emacs still alive? + +01:24:09.960 --> 01:24:10.460 +Do people still use it? + +01:24:11.120 --> 01:24:11.480 +You know, and of course, + +01:24:13.620 --> 01:24:14.100 +it's like you have an older piece of software + +01:24:15.200 --> 01:24:15.700 +that started so long ago, + +01:24:17.540 --> 01:24:17.720 +people don't realize that it's still up, + +01:24:20.320 --> 01:24:20.820 +but it's also because of the trends, + +01:24:22.900 --> 01:24:23.400 +right? You know, we've got the electron-based + +01:24:28.580 --> 01:24:28.740 +development and Visual Studio is slick out of + +01:24:32.720 --> 01:24:33.220 +the box. So what's in the core Emacs + +01:24:36.260 --> 01:24:36.540 +developers realm, obviously you guys are + +01:24:38.160 --> 01:24:38.660 +taking this longer term perspective, + +01:24:44.060 --> 01:24:44.380 +which makes sense, but what do you think + +01:24:48.480 --> 01:24:48.980 +about this issue, the shorter term and how to + +01:24:52.200 --> 01:24:52.540 +alleviate those concerns that some people + +01:24:52.540 --> 01:24:53.040 +represent? + +01:24:54.820 --> 01:24:55.040 +[Speaker 7]: Of course, yes. I mean, + +01:24:55.840 --> 01:24:56.160 +this is something that, + +01:24:59.340 --> 01:24:59.600 +I mean, clearly people are discussing and as + +01:25:01.480 --> 01:25:01.800 +you say, It's almost like a trope at this + +01:25:04.200 --> 01:25:04.700 +point. And it's been discussed on EmacsDevil, + +01:25:07.800 --> 01:25:07.960 +what can we do to promote Emacs more and to + +01:25:10.240 --> 01:25:10.740 +what extent should we care about that? + +01:25:15.100 --> 01:25:15.600 +And I mean, my reply to that is usually just, + +01:25:19.120 --> 01:25:19.620 +the rumors of my death are very accurate. + +01:25:24.720 --> 01:25:25.220 +And I think this is true also for Emacs. + +01:25:29.240 --> 01:25:29.700 +So we are very much here. + +01:25:31.960 --> 01:25:32.460 +I think what has happened also is reflective + +01:25:34.960 --> 01:25:35.220 +of basically that there are just more + +01:25:36.580 --> 01:25:37.080 +programmers on the planet, + +01:25:38.040 --> 01:25:38.240 +[Speaker 3]: And we + +01:25:39.920 --> 01:25:40.420 +[Speaker 7]: right? haven't been able to sort of catch + +01:25:41.960 --> 01:25:42.460 +that segment as it's been growing, + +01:25:44.680 --> 01:25:45.060 +but also we have more Emacs users I think + +01:25:47.500 --> 01:25:47.860 +today than probably ever before. + +01:25:48.420 --> 01:25:48.920 +We have more packages, + +01:25:50.540 --> 01:25:51.040 +we have more stuff going on. + +01:25:55.580 --> 01:25:55.980 +So I think it's a challenge as well, + +01:25:58.200 --> 01:25:58.440 +like to what extent do we wanna be like a + +01:26:00.260 --> 01:26:00.420 +niche and to what extent do we wanna be the + +01:26:03.280 --> 01:26:03.780 +text editor for programmers. + +01:26:06.420 --> 01:26:06.720 +And I think there's a tension there because + +01:26:09.780 --> 01:26:09.960 +we want to stay true to what Emacs is and to + +01:26:12.440 --> 01:26:12.940 +its sort of core values of what makes Emacs + +01:26:16.720 --> 01:26:16.880 +great, but can we still make some changes to + +01:26:18.340 --> 01:26:18.760 +sort of stay relevant. + +01:26:21.060 --> 01:26:21.340 +And I think that's a huge win. + +01:26:24.800 --> 01:26:24.960 +And clearly these discussions are going on on + +01:26:26.980 --> 01:26:27.280 +the Emacs level and in the minds of core + +01:26:29.340 --> 01:26:29.640 +developers, I think, every day. + +01:26:32.040 --> 01:26:32.540 +Even though, I mean, most of our work is just + +01:26:35.320 --> 01:26:35.820 +trying to keep adding new features, + +01:26:38.220 --> 01:26:38.720 +make sure that we have that sort of core + +01:26:40.060 --> 01:26:40.400 +infrastructure in place, + +01:26:42.280 --> 01:26:42.500 +which is part of the reason why I gave the + +01:26:44.260 --> 01:26:44.680 +talk I did yesterday, to invite more people + +01:26:46.920 --> 01:26:46.960 +to come on board. Because I see a lot of + +01:26:48.200 --> 01:26:48.700 +people have opinions about Emacs, + +01:26:50.700 --> 01:26:51.200 +which is amazing, and we need more of that. + +01:26:54.160 --> 01:26:54.660 +But I think, let's say, + +01:26:56.280 --> 01:26:56.780 +patches speak louder than words. + +01:27:01.300 --> 01:27:01.780 +Software. And it's definitely true in Emacs + +01:27:01.780 --> 01:27:02.280 +development. + +01:27:04.680 --> 01:27:04.960 +[Speaker 3]: I want to just piggyback on, + +01:27:06.820 --> 01:27:06.940 +like attack the premise of the question a + +01:27:09.800 --> 01:27:09.960 +little bit, right? Remember that we are sort + +01:27:11.880 --> 01:27:12.380 +of in a trench warfare with commercial + +01:27:15.160 --> 01:27:15.660 +interests that are dependent on dominating + +01:27:20.660 --> 01:27:21.160 +software ecosystems in order to exploit users + +01:27:24.600 --> 01:27:24.760 +for money. Like that is a necessary thing to + +01:27:26.020 --> 01:27:26.420 +a lot of people's business model. + +01:27:30.060 --> 01:27:30.560 +And so we live in a world where software is + +01:27:32.760 --> 01:27:33.260 +more than tools. It is clothing. + +01:27:38.480 --> 01:27:38.840 +And so when I put on my Mac and I put on my + +01:27:42.860 --> 01:27:43.180 +UI skin, I'm not just choosing whether I like + +01:27:46.640 --> 01:27:46.960 +sliders or radio buttons or check boxes or + +01:27:49.840 --> 01:27:50.340 +the other UI mechanics that give that + +01:27:53.920 --> 01:27:54.160 +heuristic and make it make me think it's easy + +01:27:55.440 --> 01:27:55.940 +to use, easy to learn to use, + +01:27:59.160 --> 01:27:59.340 +right? I'm also choosing a whole line of + +01:28:02.080 --> 01:28:02.580 +implementation detail that I'm being actively + +01:28:06.040 --> 01:28:06.540 +trained not to try to understand by, + +01:28:08.720 --> 01:28:09.020 +you know, kind of the dark side of the force + +01:28:11.780 --> 01:28:12.100 +over here. So when I think about, + +01:28:14.380 --> 01:28:14.880 +you know, make Emacs more like Toaster, + +01:28:18.860 --> 01:28:19.060 +[Speaker 1]: you know, + +01:28:21.340 --> 01:28:21.560 +[Speaker 3]: I, 1 of my responses is every time that + +01:28:22.740 --> 01:28:22.960 +question asks, you know, + +01:28:24.160 --> 01:28:24.480 +an angel grows, gets asked, + +01:28:25.440 --> 01:28:25.720 +an angel grows its wings. + +01:28:27.040 --> 01:28:27.540 +A developer submits a patch, + +01:28:30.040 --> 01:28:30.240 +a bug gets opened that we can, + +01:28:31.840 --> 01:28:32.320 +you know, with enough information to actually + +01:28:33.240 --> 01:28:33.740 +do something about it, + +01:28:34.920 --> 01:28:35.280 +the ecosystem gets better, + +01:28:38.100 --> 01:28:38.600 +right? Whether a new user comes or not, + +01:28:40.680 --> 01:28:41.040 +like somebody's actually asking a question + +01:28:42.780 --> 01:28:42.900 +that's going to lead them someday to pick a + +01:28:43.260 --> 01:28:43.760 +better tool. + +01:28:47.620 --> 01:28:48.120 +[Speaker 7]: Yeah, it's true. I mean, + +01:28:50.000 --> 01:28:50.280 +we have powerful enemies and they are not + +01:28:52.540 --> 01:28:52.720 +working for us. And when they are working on + +01:28:54.960 --> 01:28:55.160 +improving VS code, you can't be under any + +01:28:56.640 --> 01:28:56.720 +illusion that they are doing that in the + +01:28:57.340 --> 01:28:57.660 +interest of the users. + +01:28:59.760 --> 01:29:00.060 +They're doing that in their interest of the + +01:29:02.620 --> 01:29:02.780 +corporate owners. So this is the reality that + +01:29:04.640 --> 01:29:04.900 +we have to face and Emacs is just not like + +01:29:07.920 --> 01:29:08.040 +that. And this is of course part of the + +01:29:09.960 --> 01:29:10.460 +reason why it's so important that we continue + +01:29:14.040 --> 01:29:14.260 +this work for the future of being able to do + +01:29:17.640 --> 01:29:17.800 +computing in a free way and in a way that is + +01:29:20.220 --> 01:29:20.380 +actually, you know, supports the types of + +01:29:21.740 --> 01:29:22.240 +workflows that we know and love. + +01:29:26.720 --> 01:29:26.920 +[Speaker 4]: Something that I'd like to add to this is + +01:29:29.680 --> 01:29:30.060 +that, you know, you've mentioned we need more + +01:29:30.640 --> 01:29:31.140 +programmers in the world. + +01:29:33.240 --> 01:29:33.340 +And in light of what we're doing with + +01:29:35.140 --> 01:29:35.220 +EmacsConf, perhaps we need more people to be + +01:29:36.580 --> 01:29:36.960 +at EmacsConf talking, not necessarily + +01:29:38.100 --> 01:29:38.600 +programmers, but just people apprehending + +01:29:40.520 --> 01:29:40.940 +Emacs and talking about it. + +01:29:42.720 --> 01:29:43.180 +It feels like we've got different missions + +01:29:44.440 --> 01:29:44.700 +that we're trying to accomplish with this. + +01:29:45.820 --> 01:29:46.320 +We are... Okay, you... + +01:29:47.780 --> 01:29:48.280 +Go ahead, Colin. + +01:29:49.600 --> 01:29:49.940 +[Speaker 3]: I can't leave that alone. + +01:29:52.120 --> 01:29:52.420 +I almost came in there on the previous point. + +01:29:55.020 --> 01:29:55.240 +Yeah, I actually Completely agree with that + +01:29:58.900 --> 01:29:59.140 +Leo. That's something that and I mean to be + +01:30:02.780 --> 01:30:03.240 +fair. I owe a good I owe dev al a good email + +01:30:05.800 --> 01:30:06.160 +on this topic, but we desperately need more + +01:30:07.840 --> 01:30:08.340 +project managers, more solutions architect, + +01:30:10.380 --> 01:30:10.880 +more business process analysts, + +01:30:12.660 --> 01:30:13.160 +more systems analysts, + +01:30:15.100 --> 01:30:15.560 +more, you know, and the best tech, + +01:30:17.900 --> 01:30:18.400 +you know, some of the best threads start with + +01:30:23.100 --> 01:30:23.420 +quite a bit of an analytical work done on the + +01:30:24.940 --> 01:30:25.440 +part of an engineer who's come along. + +01:30:29.320 --> 01:30:29.680 +But actually, Larry Wall has this quote, + +01:30:31.640 --> 01:30:32.140 +right? Where he says, consider 3 solutions + +01:30:34.120 --> 01:30:34.300 +and build 1. And I think we struggle with + +01:30:36.760 --> 01:30:37.260 +that as a community because getting a patch + +01:30:39.920 --> 01:30:40.120 +is a lot of work and a lot to ask for + +01:30:42.900 --> 01:30:43.080 +somebody. So asking 3 people to submit a + +01:30:45.200 --> 01:30:45.260 +patch means you're saying no to a lot of + +01:30:47.280 --> 01:30:47.560 +blood, sweat and tears on the part of like 2 + +01:30:48.960 --> 01:30:49.460 +people, maybe 2 teams of people. + +01:30:55.520 --> 01:30:56.020 +[Speaker 5]: And 1 thing I think is a big expansion is + +01:31:02.020 --> 01:31:02.520 +usability and user experience design. + +01:31:05.560 --> 01:31:05.900 +I think, and not in the sense like, + +01:31:08.260 --> 01:31:08.760 +you know, CUA mode or, + +01:31:12.440 --> 01:31:12.560 +you know, people don't realize that Emacs key + +01:31:13.680 --> 01:31:14.180 +bindings are actually ergonomic, + +01:31:16.720 --> 01:31:17.220 +but more, you know, like for myself, + +01:31:20.240 --> 01:31:20.740 +I did a lot of work in sort of bringing out + +01:31:24.480 --> 01:31:24.880 +Emacs features and did a lot of things + +01:31:26.240 --> 01:31:26.740 +creating this info doc, + +01:31:28.940 --> 01:31:29.100 +you know, which is sort of like Space Max or + +01:31:30.300 --> 01:31:30.800 +something in the old days. + +01:31:33.900 --> 01:31:34.200 +But the process, yeah, + +01:31:38.600 --> 01:31:39.100 +kept a lot of that from ever making it into + +01:31:40.460 --> 01:31:40.680 +CoreDMX and, you know, + +01:31:44.180 --> 01:31:44.680 +just a lack of time on my part to follow up. + +01:31:46.560 --> 01:31:47.060 +But if you had somebody, + +01:31:51.220 --> 01:31:51.500 +you know, who sort of coalesced all the + +01:31:52.820 --> 01:31:53.260 +technical work on like, + +01:31:56.280 --> 01:31:56.480 +here's how we can put it together and make it + +01:32:01.320 --> 01:32:01.820 +more accessible, I've seen that go a long way + +01:32:02.800 --> 01:32:03.300 +in certain environments. + +01:32:06.100 --> 01:32:06.340 +And I imagine, you know, + +01:32:08.160 --> 01:32:08.660 +it's just not the experience of, + +01:32:11.180 --> 01:32:11.680 +you know, most people on the core team. + +01:32:14.620 --> 01:32:15.060 +[Speaker 7]: Yeah, for sure. I mean, + +01:32:16.160 --> 01:32:16.560 +We don't have, I mean, + +01:32:18.760 --> 01:32:18.900 +we're mostly a bunch, we're a bunch of + +01:32:20.080 --> 01:32:20.280 +programmers. That's what we are, + +01:32:22.640 --> 01:32:22.800 +right? We don't have graphical signers or any + +01:32:24.320 --> 01:32:24.620 +of the stuff that you're talking about. + +01:32:28.380 --> 01:32:28.580 +So we don't have really any UX experts on + +01:32:30.380 --> 01:32:30.800 +board. So perhaps that would be welcome. + +01:32:35.460 --> 01:32:35.960 +But then again, how do you even fit the EMAX + +01:32:38.880 --> 01:32:39.280 +paradigm into what is typically taught and + +01:32:40.840 --> 01:32:41.120 +discussed in UX? I mean, + +01:32:43.220 --> 01:32:43.380 +maybe there is a way. I'm sure there are + +01:32:45.640 --> 01:32:45.920 +general principles and a lot that we could + +01:32:47.880 --> 01:32:48.380 +learn, But then there is also like this, + +01:32:52.240 --> 01:32:52.440 +we have to stay true to what Emacs is to some + +01:32:53.940 --> 01:32:54.400 +extent and what does that look like + +01:32:56.320 --> 01:32:56.580 +concretely. There are discussions to be had + +01:32:58.620 --> 01:32:59.120 +for sure, but we would definitely benefit + +01:33:02.900 --> 01:33:03.400 +from that type of specific input. + +01:33:04.360 --> 01:33:04.480 +[Speaker 3]: Well, I + +01:33:06.940 --> 01:33:07.240 +[Speaker 5]: mean, like a simple example today is I looked + +01:33:09.720 --> 01:33:09.900 +at the conference guidelines I always stay in + +01:33:13.160 --> 01:33:13.420 +dark mode and it said well use light mode for + +01:33:16.220 --> 01:33:16.420 +your presentation so okay I'll switch to + +01:33:19.280 --> 01:33:19.480 +light mode let me load a theme so I go into + +01:33:21.280 --> 01:33:21.780 +all the default themes and, + +01:33:23.900 --> 01:33:24.400 +you know, start going through the light ones + +01:33:28.080 --> 01:33:28.580 +and then I check all the faces and, + +01:33:31.120 --> 01:33:31.620 +you know, there are at least 3 to 5 faces + +01:33:35.160 --> 01:33:35.600 +that have nearly invisible text as a result + +01:33:38.480 --> 01:33:38.980 +of the background highlighting on them. + +01:33:40.080 --> 01:33:40.460 +And I'm like, you know, + +01:33:43.380 --> 01:33:43.680 +so there's low hanging fruit like that where + +01:33:46.840 --> 01:33:47.020 +people would deal with the structure of the + +01:33:49.400 --> 01:33:49.900 +menus, the actual faces, + +01:33:53.120 --> 01:33:53.620 +the themes, that don't have to do anything + +01:33:57.840 --> 01:33:58.060 +affecting core Emacs except make the + +01:33:59.960 --> 01:34:00.460 +presentation much better. + +01:34:03.380 --> 01:34:03.640 +[Speaker 7]: Yeah, definitely. If people want to send such + +01:34:06.160 --> 01:34:06.660 +polishing patches for various aspects, + +01:34:09.280 --> 01:34:09.520 +I spent some time making a new help screen. + +01:34:10.520 --> 01:34:10.960 +I don't know if you noticed, + +01:34:12.740 --> 01:34:13.040 +I don't know how many people press Control H, + +01:34:14.160 --> 01:34:14.660 +Control H on their keyboards, + +01:34:17.540 --> 01:34:17.720 +But it's like with new sections and it's + +01:34:18.480 --> 01:34:18.980 +sorted a little bit better. + +01:34:20.500 --> 01:34:20.640 +It didn't take much. I mean, + +01:34:21.660 --> 01:34:22.060 +it took a time obviously, + +01:34:23.940 --> 01:34:24.440 +but it's not like it required some fantastic + +01:34:28.140 --> 01:34:28.260 +technical knowledge or deep expertise in + +01:34:29.200 --> 01:34:29.700 +Emacs Lisp to do that. + +01:34:31.480 --> 01:34:31.980 +It's Basically anyone can do stuff like that. + +01:34:34.200 --> 01:34:34.340 +So definitely if you're interested in doing + +01:34:37.440 --> 01:34:37.680 +that type of work, start discussing with us. + +01:34:41.040 --> 01:34:41.440 +Let's talk about what we can do and get doing + +01:34:41.820 --> 01:34:42.320 +it, really. + +01:34:44.960 --> 01:34:45.140 +[Speaker 4]: Yeah, this is exactly in line with your + +01:34:45.800 --> 01:34:46.240 +presentation from yesterday, + +01:34:47.720 --> 01:34:47.920 +Stefan, as well, because you were just + +01:34:50.160 --> 01:34:50.320 +inviting people who are not contributing to + +01:34:51.380 --> 01:34:51.740 +the core of Emacs to do so. + +01:34:53.200 --> 01:34:53.360 +You were talking to package developer on + +01:34:55.120 --> 01:34:55.440 +MailPub, but you were also talking just about + +01:34:58.200 --> 01:34:58.380 +the average Joe or Jane just doing their own + +01:34:59.580 --> 01:35:00.080 +things or encountering a problem. + +01:35:01.120 --> 01:35:01.280 +Now, yes, we talked about, + +01:35:02.800 --> 01:35:02.960 +oh, you need to build master and all this, + +01:35:03.920 --> 01:35:04.420 +but at the end of the day, + +01:35:06.680 --> 01:35:06.960 +low-hanging fruits like the ones Bob just + +01:35:09.840 --> 01:35:10.120 +described. If everyone does this at the end, + +01:35:11.280 --> 01:35:11.780 +you end up with something that is extremely + +01:35:13.520 --> 01:35:13.620 +polished. Perhaps you do not need to have a + +01:35:14.900 --> 01:35:15.140 +UX specialist to tell you that, + +01:35:18.220 --> 01:35:18.340 +oh, those 2 colors are actually very close to + +01:35:21.220 --> 01:35:21.600 +1 another. I think it's kind of a discussion + +01:35:23.580 --> 01:35:24.020 +about same defaults as well that you had + +01:35:25.080 --> 01:35:25.580 +yesterday. Ultimately, + +01:35:27.340 --> 01:35:27.600 +we do not need... Yes, + +01:35:28.780 --> 01:35:29.040 +we need more programmers in the world. + +01:35:30.480 --> 01:35:30.980 +We want more people to use Emacs. + +01:35:33.740 --> 01:35:34.240 +But you don't know. Like, + +01:35:36.220 --> 01:35:36.500 +is it going to be someone in computer science + +01:35:38.420 --> 01:35:38.620 +that's going to be the next giant on whose + +01:35:39.580 --> 01:35:39.880 +shoulders we're going to stand? + +01:35:41.003 --> 01:35:41.010 +[Speaker 3]: computer science? Is it going to be someone + +01:35:41.066 --> 01:35:41.074 +in computer science that's going to be the + +01:35:41.082 --> 01:35:41.090 +next giant + +01:35:41.137 --> 01:35:41.145 +[Speaker 1]: on whose shoulders we're going to stand? + +01:35:41.184 --> 01:35:41.192 +Is it someone who did not + +01:35:41.192 --> 01:35:41.200 +[Speaker 4]: Is it someone who did not study study + +01:35:42.660 --> 01:35:42.980 +computer science? Is it going to be someone + +01:35:44.060 --> 01:35:44.560 +who did something completely different? + +01:35:46.960 --> 01:35:47.120 +We do not know the prototypical user of + +01:35:49.280 --> 01:35:49.640 +Emacs. We have some idea about the fact that + +01:35:51.760 --> 01:35:51.940 +they might be using you know, + +01:35:52.580 --> 01:35:53.080 +Emacs for their programming, + +01:35:55.560 --> 01:35:55.680 +but more and more, and as is evidenced by the + +01:35:56.420 --> 01:35:56.920 +talks we received with EmacsConf, + +01:36:01.020 --> 01:36:01.360 +it's just people doing writing or taking + +01:36:01.920 --> 01:36:02.420 +notes for their classes. + +01:36:06.340 --> 01:36:06.540 +So it's really interesting to see how and to + +01:36:09.400 --> 01:36:09.480 +explore for us how we can give back to the + +01:36:11.180 --> 01:36:11.600 +core of Emacs in a way that is mutually + +01:36:12.360 --> 01:36:12.700 +constructive because again, + +01:36:14.440 --> 01:36:14.940 +to go back to the philosophy or the political + +01:36:17.400 --> 01:36:17.640 +agenda that we have is for more people to use + +01:36:19.700 --> 01:36:20.200 +software that is not the liberties. + +01:36:20.500 --> 01:36:21.000 +Exactly. + +01:36:24.140 --> 01:36:24.280 +[Speaker 3]: So right. Yeah. I mean, + +01:36:25.840 --> 01:36:26.100 +that's a good spot for me to come right back + +01:36:27.380 --> 01:36:27.720 +in. And that's exactly where I do. + +01:36:30.200 --> 01:36:30.420 +Right. Because that's that's what it's all + +01:36:33.040 --> 01:36:33.540 +about. In the In terms of a tool user, + +01:36:36.600 --> 01:36:37.100 +you know, the evolution of using tools as, + +01:36:38.620 --> 01:36:39.120 +you know, these creatures have fought, + +01:36:42.820 --> 01:36:43.220 +Emacs is fire. Emacs is the ability to learn + +01:36:45.920 --> 01:36:46.320 +languages, the ability to manipulate other + +01:36:48.140 --> 01:36:48.640 +tools. I mean, it's almost like, + +01:36:50.680 --> 01:36:51.140 +you know, God Emperor of Dune level, + +01:36:53.720 --> 01:36:54.140 +you know, some Frank Herbert type of powers + +01:36:56.480 --> 01:36:56.680 +that you have over your computer and you are + +01:36:58.460 --> 01:36:58.740 +not required to understand how all those + +01:37:02.440 --> 01:37:02.940 +things work. So from a support standpoint + +01:37:04.540 --> 01:37:04.840 +that puts us in a challenging position, + +01:37:06.300 --> 01:37:06.720 +right? I spend a lot of time on Pound Emacs + +01:37:07.760 --> 01:37:08.040 +and the questions that go by there, + +01:37:09.840 --> 01:37:09.960 +I feel bad for people that feel like they + +01:37:12.600 --> 01:37:12.720 +have to answer every question that goes by in + +01:37:14.060 --> 01:37:14.500 +the channel because no 1 could. + +01:37:16.640 --> 01:37:17.080 +No 1 can give an intelligent answer to the, + +01:37:18.040 --> 01:37:18.540 +you know, everything from, + +01:37:21.260 --> 01:37:21.440 +Hey, how do I change my default font on this + +01:37:23.520 --> 01:37:24.020 +operating system? You've never heard of to, + +01:37:26.140 --> 01:37:26.480 +you know, how do you know this list code? + +01:37:28.040 --> 01:37:28.340 +That's 40 lines long doesn't work. + +01:37:30.040 --> 01:37:30.260 +And I think it was a recent change that was + +01:37:31.720 --> 01:37:32.220 +made to the P case macro. + +01:37:39.480 --> 01:37:39.980 +Do you agree? Right? And as deep as that, + +01:37:42.740 --> 01:37:43.240 +well is, if you turn it 90 degrees, + +01:37:45.040 --> 01:37:45.200 +the Emacs is that kind of tool to the + +01:37:46.080 --> 01:37:46.400 +operating system level. + +01:37:48.800 --> 01:37:49.280 +It's letting me walk across to other systems, + +01:37:51.360 --> 01:37:51.780 +multi-hop, become the super user, + +01:37:55.120 --> 01:37:55.620 +right? And, you know, the just the power, + +01:37:57.600 --> 01:37:58.020 +the amplification of power there, + +01:38:02.320 --> 01:38:02.820 +it's like the lever combined with the magnet, + +01:38:08.140 --> 01:38:08.640 +etc, etc. I mean, just, + +01:38:14.760 --> 01:38:14.960 +yeah, I don't know. So I guess where we kind + +01:38:16.260 --> 01:38:16.640 +of jump off, where that gets stuck, + +01:38:18.580 --> 01:38:18.740 +right, is trying to change something like the + +01:38:19.760 --> 01:38:20.260 +defaults in the user experience. + +01:38:22.740 --> 01:38:23.240 +So I imagine, you know, + +01:38:26.580 --> 01:38:26.920 +we don't get 1 great idea about user + +01:38:28.020 --> 01:38:28.520 +experience, we'll get 3, + +01:38:30.240 --> 01:38:30.480 +right? And then Once again, + +01:38:32.980 --> 01:38:33.400 +we have to send our brave developers off to + +01:38:36.220 --> 01:38:36.440 +build 1 to 3 patches, some of which won't see + +01:38:41.040 --> 01:38:41.140 +the light of day. I think that's where the + +01:38:41.920 --> 01:38:42.420 +breakthrough is needed. + +01:38:46.680 --> 01:38:47.180 +Another evolution in the packaging thought, + +01:38:48.620 --> 01:38:49.120 +or maybe it's not packaging. + +01:38:50.920 --> 01:38:51.380 +Maybe it's the compilation step. + +01:38:52.800 --> 01:38:53.220 +Maybe it's the distribution step. + +01:38:56.120 --> 01:38:56.280 +Maybe we want the Debians of the world to + +01:38:59.220 --> 01:38:59.540 +deliver Emacs as 2 different pieces now. + +01:39:03.540 --> 01:39:03.700 +And there's a UX piece that we want you to + +01:39:05.280 --> 01:39:05.780 +package each 1 that you package, + +01:39:09.060 --> 01:39:09.240 +each 1 per window manager that you support or + +01:39:11.380 --> 01:39:11.660 +at the intersection of each window manager + +01:39:12.940 --> 01:39:13.300 +and display manager you port. + +01:39:15.200 --> 01:39:15.300 +And the other one's just the server and you + +01:39:17.040 --> 01:39:17.280 +don't even have to package that if I'm only + +01:39:19.680 --> 01:39:20.020 +offering the CLI or there's a you know like + +01:39:21.960 --> 01:39:22.280 +I'm making all this up and I can't code a + +01:39:23.760 --> 01:39:24.260 +single thing like what I just said, + +01:39:26.920 --> 01:39:27.420 +but I think that there's a technical + +01:39:31.640 --> 01:39:32.140 +opportunity. Pretty high level for technical + +01:39:35.020 --> 01:39:35.520 +there of just thinking about a way to accept + +01:39:40.560 --> 01:39:40.680 +contributions of experience with maybe a + +01:39:43.780 --> 01:39:44.280 +little less rigor and a little less ground + +01:39:44.900 --> 01:39:45.400 +into the marble. + +01:39:50.400 --> 01:39:50.800 +[Speaker 5]: Yeah it makes me think of somebody at work + +01:39:54.220 --> 01:39:54.340 +just brought up pair programming and he's in + +01:39:58.080 --> 01:39:58.580 +love with it. He wants to pair up and do it, + +01:40:01.120 --> 01:40:01.620 +which is not true of all programmers. + +01:40:05.800 --> 01:40:06.300 +But I said, okay, so you spearhead that. + +01:40:10.680 --> 01:40:10.900 +If we, I think it is a very high barrier to + +01:40:13.580 --> 01:40:13.780 +get your patches in because of course they + +01:40:15.420 --> 01:40:15.860 +need to meet the quality standard of Emacs. + +01:40:20.800 --> 01:40:21.300 +So if people who are doing day-to-day + +01:40:24.200 --> 01:40:24.700 +understand that process and can do it well, + +01:40:28.200 --> 01:40:28.540 +could work with some of the people who can't + +01:40:30.040 --> 01:40:30.540 +quite contribute at that level, + +01:40:35.020 --> 01:40:35.240 +but have ideas that are on the level that + +01:40:39.780 --> 01:40:40.280 +should go in, pairing them up could really + +01:40:41.420 --> 01:40:41.920 +move a lot of that forward. + +01:40:46.000 --> 01:40:46.500 +Like Lars, I don't know what his, + +01:40:50.000 --> 01:40:50.500 +I get the feeling maybe he's retired. + +01:40:54.960 --> 01:40:55.380 +So, you know, maybe he has some time, + +01:40:58.300 --> 01:40:58.640 +you know, and he's really good at going back + +01:41:00.320 --> 01:41:00.480 +in and saying, you know, + +01:41:02.400 --> 01:41:02.480 +these areas haven't gotten attention in a + +01:41:05.660 --> 01:41:05.900 +while, so I'm going to go kill some bugs and + +01:41:08.160 --> 01:41:08.660 +look at them and fix them up. + +01:41:13.640 --> 01:41:13.840 +So I would think he would be good to do that + +01:41:15.340 --> 01:41:15.480 +with someone. But you know, + +01:41:22.400 --> 01:41:22.740 +Again, I've got years of code that would just + +01:41:25.320 --> 01:41:25.760 +require somebody to work through it to update + +01:41:28.340 --> 01:41:28.660 +to the latest code base and diff against it. + +01:41:30.080 --> 01:41:30.480 +But it does things like, + +01:41:32.960 --> 01:41:33.420 +I mean, like if anybody used RMAIL anymore, + +01:41:36.200 --> 01:41:36.700 +I made the summary mode of RMAIL exactly + +01:41:40.080 --> 01:41:40.580 +compatible key-wise with the main buffer, + +01:41:43.140 --> 01:41:43.260 +which it never was, and fixed a number of + +01:41:46.120 --> 01:41:46.620 +other features. Dured made operations + +01:41:49.340 --> 01:41:49.480 +reversible, where you mark something and you + +01:41:51.420 --> 01:41:51.920 +unmark it, and you can go up and down. + +01:41:53.160 --> 01:41:53.480 +And there are all these little + +01:41:56.260 --> 01:41:56.760 +incompatibilities that kind of add up across + +01:42:00.120 --> 01:42:00.620 +time, and they never seem to get addressed. + +01:42:06.180 --> 01:42:06.480 +We could just fix them and people would start + +01:42:09.400 --> 01:42:09.640 +to say, oh, this is smoother and they are + +01:42:12.580 --> 01:42:12.820 +getting more of that experience because it + +01:42:15.060 --> 01:42:15.560 +feels like the systems maybe 80, + +01:42:20.740 --> 01:42:21.240 +85% of the way there in a lot of thoughtful + +01:42:26.040 --> 01:42:26.200 +design. But that last 15% could be the + +01:42:29.640 --> 01:42:30.100 +difference between an iPhone and an Android + +01:42:32.260 --> 01:42:32.760 +phone of usability-wise. + +01:42:38.720 --> 01:42:38.940 +So that's a thought. That's a + +01:42:41.100 --> 01:42:41.240 +[Speaker 3]: brilliant idea, and it probably can be + +01:42:42.840 --> 01:42:43.340 +applied far wider than emacs. + +01:42:46.060 --> 01:42:46.320 +That's something that that FSF should + +01:42:48.480 --> 01:42:48.980 +consider suggesting across, + +01:42:49.920 --> 01:42:50.420 +you know, GNU packages, + +01:42:54.280 --> 01:42:54.600 +for example, like a matchmaking project seems + +01:42:56.520 --> 01:42:56.880 +like something that FSF community teams + +01:43:04.020 --> 01:43:04.110 +should think about. Yeah, + +01:43:04.360 --> 01:43:04.520 +I was going + +01:43:04.920 --> 01:43:05.420 +[Speaker 1]: That's so... to say also, + +01:43:08.080 --> 01:43:08.140 +I noticed that the name Debian came up a + +01:43:09.840 --> 01:43:10.260 +while ago and now we were talking about + +01:43:14.540 --> 01:43:15.040 +programming and such and Mentoring maybe and + +01:43:17.960 --> 01:43:18.320 +Debian has this service or part of their site + +01:43:19.600 --> 01:43:20.100 +or community called Mentors. + +01:43:22.120 --> 01:43:22.620 +They have a website, mentors.debian.net, + +01:43:26.920 --> 01:43:27.100 +where the idea is that people who want to get + +01:43:28.100 --> 01:43:28.480 +into contributing to Debian, + +01:43:29.580 --> 01:43:30.080 +for example, to package things, + +01:43:33.200 --> 01:43:33.480 +but obviously don't have upload rights right + +01:43:35.720 --> 01:43:36.000 +away. This is where they can go to, + +01:43:38.460 --> 01:43:38.760 +and this is separate from their mailing list + +01:43:42.340 --> 01:43:42.580 +or bug trackers. They can basically build + +01:43:44.760 --> 01:43:45.260 +their changed packages and upload them here, + +01:43:48.220 --> 01:43:48.480 +and then Debian developers who have commit or + +01:43:51.380 --> 01:43:51.620 +upload rights to the Debian archive can go + +01:43:55.960 --> 01:43:56.120 +and review and give them feedback or ask them + +01:43:57.620 --> 01:43:58.120 +to change something or if it's good, + +01:44:01.620 --> 01:44:01.920 +then just easily upload the package right + +01:44:04.200 --> 01:44:04.440 +from there. And I wonder if it might make + +01:44:07.760 --> 01:44:08.000 +sense to have something kind of like that in + +01:44:10.360 --> 01:44:10.840 +like the context of Emacs or the GNU project + +01:44:13.360 --> 01:44:13.660 +as a whole, where we have like some kind of + +01:44:15.520 --> 01:44:16.020 +a, like loosely defined mentoring thing, + +01:44:18.840 --> 01:44:19.120 +where we could pair up people who are more + +01:44:20.500 --> 01:44:21.000 +experienced, who, for example, + +01:44:22.540 --> 01:44:22.740 +have commit rights in the Emacs core + +01:44:27.080 --> 01:44:27.240 +repository to match them up with someone who + +01:44:29.080 --> 01:44:29.260 +is just making your very first patches or + +01:44:31.640 --> 01:44:31.960 +contributions to Emacs or whatever other GNU + +01:44:34.000 --> 01:44:34.200 +package. Just some food for thought, + +01:44:38.040 --> 01:44:38.540 +[Speaker 5]: Yeah, sounds good. + +01:44:44.340 --> 01:44:44.600 +[Speaker 1]: I guess. Yeah, and then I guess 1 feature of + +01:44:47.360 --> 01:44:47.860 +such a system which would be nice is that it, + +01:44:49.200 --> 01:44:49.340 +at least in terms of, you know, + +01:44:50.380 --> 01:44:50.580 +the mentors that Debbie and that, + +01:44:52.200 --> 01:44:52.700 +that it has a web UI, which, + +01:44:56.040 --> 01:44:56.200 +is nice because mailing lists might be + +01:44:58.140 --> 01:44:58.380 +intimidating for someone who is just getting + +01:44:59.340 --> 01:44:59.840 +started, like in these communities. + +01:45:03.960 --> 01:45:04.200 +Or, you know, just making patches like that, + +01:45:05.440 --> 01:45:05.940 +or just have a series of concrete + +01:45:08.100 --> 01:45:08.320 +instructions. Like with mentors at + +01:45:11.100 --> 01:45:11.200 +Devian.net, I feel like you can't go wrong in + +01:45:13.820 --> 01:45:14.240 +terms of finding the steps of figuring out + +01:45:16.260 --> 01:45:16.500 +what you need to do to put together some + +01:45:19.040 --> 01:45:19.240 +change. Which I think the same idea could + +01:45:20.280 --> 01:45:20.740 +apply to Emacs, for example, + +01:45:20.860 --> 01:45:21.360 +as well. + +01:45:24.560 --> 01:45:24.960 +[Speaker 7]: I think this is a good point about lowering + +01:45:27.440 --> 01:45:27.620 +barriers, and how email is a barrier to + +01:45:28.860 --> 01:45:29.240 +people. I mean, so on the 1 hand, + +01:45:31.100 --> 01:45:31.320 +you have us guys on Emacs level, + +01:45:32.860 --> 01:45:33.360 +we're very used to the email workflow. + +01:45:35.140 --> 01:45:35.500 +Like we're not just using it for fun. + +01:45:37.040 --> 01:45:37.160 +You know what I mean? Like this is a + +01:45:38.320 --> 01:45:38.820 +workhorse. It really is. + +01:45:41.400 --> 01:45:41.840 +And it's tried, it's battled, + +01:45:42.900 --> 01:45:43.300 +tested. It has some quirks, + +01:45:45.140 --> 01:45:45.340 +but we know them extremely well on the other + +01:45:48.060 --> 01:45:48.380 +hand. So, but still we want more people + +01:45:50.700 --> 01:45:50.880 +involved, right? And we realized that, + +01:45:52.760 --> 01:45:52.960 +you know, times are changing as well. + +01:45:54.720 --> 01:45:54.900 +And people are more used to doing stuff from + +01:45:55.640 --> 01:45:56.140 +the web browser, perhaps. + +01:46:00.040 --> 01:46:00.320 +So we do want to move to a forge, + +01:46:01.920 --> 01:46:02.420 +or at least start looking into that. + +01:46:03.560 --> 01:46:04.060 +But there are some obstacles. + +01:46:06.060 --> 01:46:06.280 +So we are looking for volunteers to do that + +01:46:07.360 --> 01:46:07.580 +work. I'm not just saying it, + +01:46:08.640 --> 01:46:09.140 +like we are very serious. + +01:46:11.660 --> 01:46:11.760 +I'm very seriously asking people in the + +01:46:12.520 --> 01:46:13.020 +community to consider, + +01:46:14.920 --> 01:46:15.280 +hey, could you dedicate some time? + +01:46:18.660 --> 01:46:18.900 +I mean, it will take some dedication for sure + +01:46:20.600 --> 01:46:20.820 +it will take some time and it will take some + +01:46:23.040 --> 01:46:23.300 +describe probably even you know Be prepared + +01:46:24.760 --> 01:46:25.260 +to be frustrated at times right, + +01:46:26.980 --> 01:46:27.180 +but if you're serious about doing that type + +01:46:28.040 --> 01:46:28.260 +of work, okay now + +01:46:32.520 --> 01:46:32.900 +[Speaker 3]: I believe you Well, I'm just I'm just teasing + +01:46:35.900 --> 01:46:36.140 +but but but yes exactly any I mean it's it's + +01:46:38.560 --> 01:46:39.060 +not even a joke right Any serious undertaking + +01:46:41.420 --> 01:46:41.920 +having to do with any free software project, + +01:46:45.300 --> 01:46:45.600 +just because we are open to the entire world + +01:46:47.760 --> 01:46:48.160 +and we pride ourselves on trying to take + +01:46:50.020 --> 01:46:50.460 +seriously all input. And if it's a logical + +01:46:51.940 --> 01:46:52.040 +argument, then we'll go ahead and take the + +01:46:53.000 --> 01:46:53.200 +time to combat with you, + +01:46:54.960 --> 01:46:55.180 +even though the maintainer has 300 other + +01:46:57.260 --> 01:46:57.760 +things to do. Like, man, + +01:46:58.280 --> 01:46:58.740 +this + +01:47:00.020 --> 01:47:00.280 +[Speaker 7]: is just the way it is, + +01:47:02.840 --> 01:47:03.160 +right? It just, It's not like Emacs is way + +01:47:06.960 --> 01:47:07.460 +harder to change than any other project of + +01:47:08.680 --> 01:47:09.180 +its longevity and size. + +01:47:10.800 --> 01:47:11.100 +It's just these things take time. + +01:47:13.420 --> 01:47:13.920 +Try getting a change into Debian. + +01:47:15.060 --> 01:47:15.460 +That's an uphill battle. + +01:47:16.960 --> 01:47:17.460 +I don't even know where to start with that. + +01:47:19.540 --> 01:47:20.040 +That's huge, right? And I have tremendous + +01:47:21.640 --> 01:47:21.820 +respect for the people doing that type of + +01:47:22.760 --> 01:47:23.260 +work because it takes dedication, + +01:47:26.280 --> 01:47:26.440 +it takes effort. So we really need someone to + +01:47:27.180 --> 01:47:27.600 +step up from the community, + +01:47:29.760 --> 01:47:30.060 +I think, to be a champion for something like + +01:47:33.160 --> 01:47:33.600 +this and work together with us on Emacs Devil + +01:47:37.800 --> 01:47:38.200 +and off Emacs Devil, probably with me and Eli + +01:47:40.320 --> 01:47:40.600 +and perhaps some other people that could be + +01:47:41.820 --> 01:47:42.280 +in the mail thread, and we could coordinate + +01:47:44.620 --> 01:47:44.960 +this type of work. I would be super excited + +01:47:46.560 --> 01:47:47.060 +if someone wanted to get the ball rolling. + +01:47:48.480 --> 01:47:48.980 +I can't do everything. + +01:47:51.100 --> 01:47:51.340 +I wish I could. Like, I thought about it. + +01:47:52.840 --> 01:47:53.000 +Should I just put everything to the side and + +01:47:53.860 --> 01:47:54.000 +do this? But then, I mean, + +01:47:54.800 --> 01:47:55.080 +there are some, there are other + +01:47:56.040 --> 01:47:56.400 +responsibilities as well. + +01:47:57.740 --> 01:47:58.040 +So we need someone to step up. + +01:47:58.520 --> 01:47:59.020 +We need help here. + +01:48:03.220 --> 01:48:03.460 +[Speaker 3]: you're gonna speak. I was totally gonna pick + +01:48:04.120 --> 01:48:04.620 +on you. Go ahead. + +01:48:05.540 --> 01:48:05.820 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so. Oh, good, Thanks, + +01:48:06.540 --> 01:48:06.860 +yeah, I was just gonna say, + +01:48:08.460 --> 01:48:08.960 +yeah, I echo Stefan's sentiments. + +01:48:11.680 --> 01:48:11.960 +And that, yeah, in terms of like maybe + +01:48:14.020 --> 01:48:14.080 +experimenting with a different Forge or a + +01:48:15.280 --> 01:48:15.600 +better Forge and like, + +01:48:16.124 --> 01:48:16.296 +you know, supplementing Savannah. + +01:48:16.640 --> 01:48:17.140 +And supplementing Savannah. + +01:48:20.860 --> 01:48:20.920 +I actually did some initial work a couple of + +01:48:23.240 --> 01:48:23.740 +months ago to get a SourceFed instance + +01:48:24.860 --> 01:48:25.360 +installed for the new project. + +01:48:28.440 --> 01:48:28.660 +And I've done some work on and off, + +01:48:29.340 --> 01:48:29.760 +but then life happens, + +01:48:32.140 --> 01:48:32.640 +especially from September onwards. + +01:48:35.240 --> 01:48:35.500 +But even from earlier in the year, + +01:48:36.460 --> 01:48:36.960 +the project has been semi-dormant, + +01:48:38.740 --> 01:48:39.240 +but I have been meaning to get to that. + +01:48:42.740 --> 01:48:42.900 +So I'm like 1 such person who's interested in + +01:48:44.760 --> 01:48:44.960 +that type of work and driving it forward and + +01:48:47.640 --> 01:48:47.880 +I would love you know if anyone's and anyone + +01:48:50.820 --> 01:48:50.980 +else has the kind of time and energy and the + +01:48:52.760 --> 01:48:53.260 +interest to help with something like that. + +01:48:55.280 --> 01:48:55.780 +Yes, please reach out to all of us, + +01:48:56.880 --> 01:48:57.380 +to Emacs core developers, + +01:48:58.100 --> 01:48:58.600 +of course, and to myself. + +01:49:01.840 --> 01:49:02.340 +This is something that could be very useful, + +01:49:04.960 --> 01:49:05.460 +not just for GNU Emacs and Emacs developers, + +01:49:09.760 --> 01:49:10.240 +but also for any other GNU package as well. + +01:49:13.040 --> 01:49:13.480 +So yeah, that's 1 area of potential + +01:49:15.660 --> 01:49:16.060 +contribution and 1 thing that we sort of, + +01:49:17.860 --> 01:49:18.340 +I guess, regularly meet with the FSF + +01:49:20.140 --> 01:49:20.640 +sysadmins to discuss these kinds of projects + +01:49:22.120 --> 01:49:22.620 +and things as Corwin would know. + +01:49:24.520 --> 01:49:24.720 +[Speaker 3]: Yeah, that's kind of, I mean, + +01:49:26.280 --> 01:49:26.420 +you knew exactly where I was going to, + +01:49:27.960 --> 01:49:28.420 +and I'm glad that you volunteered yourself + +01:49:30.040 --> 01:49:30.540 +personally because that's the best choice. + +01:49:32.320 --> 01:49:32.820 +If you're hearing this and you're thinking, + +01:49:35.760 --> 01:49:36.260 +you know, maybe I should do some sysop stuff, + +01:49:38.200 --> 01:49:38.700 +literally reach out to Amin. + +01:49:41.040 --> 01:49:41.420 +And because it's complicated, + +01:49:43.040 --> 01:49:43.320 +there are a lot of projects to volunteer for. + +01:49:44.120 --> 01:49:44.620 +They're all very worthy. + +01:49:48.760 --> 01:49:49.020 +And it's sort of political to figure out what + +01:49:52.760 --> 01:49:53.000 +we're gonna try to change for whom first to + +01:49:55.940 --> 01:49:56.260 +demonstrate we can do all the things we wanna + +01:49:58.320 --> 01:49:58.440 +do to make it better without losing all the + +01:50:00.340 --> 01:50:00.540 +things that are important about how it is + +01:50:04.040 --> 01:50:04.480 +today. And we'll do it in a measured way like + +01:50:06.500 --> 01:50:06.760 +everybody's just like room full of rocking + +01:50:09.640 --> 01:50:09.780 +chairs everybody's got a long tail it's a + +01:50:12.340 --> 01:50:12.620 +hard project but you will do something that + +01:50:15.380 --> 01:50:15.540 +just a lot like as a Savannah hacker which I + +01:50:17.920 --> 01:50:18.240 +am with Amin So that's how I know about his + +01:50:20.080 --> 01:50:20.340 +work on that project. We worked together on + +01:50:22.300 --> 01:50:22.800 +the Savannah Forge. I'm aware of his work + +01:50:26.660 --> 01:50:26.980 +piloting SourceHut recently and just with a + +01:50:29.020 --> 01:50:29.240 +working group there to look at the next + +01:50:30.540 --> 01:50:31.040 +generation of forges for GNU. + +01:50:34.160 --> 01:50:34.340 +Emacs of course as a GNU package could go do + +01:50:36.540 --> 01:50:36.820 +its own thing. FFS would most likely give + +01:50:38.360 --> 01:50:38.560 +cash to go do its own thing, + +01:50:39.720 --> 01:50:39.860 +even if it didn't like it. + +01:50:41.140 --> 01:50:41.520 +We know, you know, as a, + +01:50:42.800 --> 01:50:43.260 +like if I put on, I'm not FSF, + +01:50:44.260 --> 01:50:44.600 +but if I put on that hat, + +01:50:45.800 --> 01:50:46.300 +I imagine that we must know. + +01:50:50.020 --> 01:50:50.200 +Emacs is a flagship thing that people in the + +01:50:52.420 --> 01:50:52.800 +real world depend on. If I get this ancient + +01:50:55.320 --> 01:50:55.820 +computer, I get a working Linux distribution + +01:50:59.340 --> 01:50:59.500 +and Emacs. Maybe it's not Microsoft Word as a + +01:51:00.800 --> 01:51:01.300 +word processor, but you guys, + +01:51:03.080 --> 01:51:03.580 +you can learn a language on it for sure, + +01:51:05.600 --> 01:51:05.800 +you know And you can do your homework on it + +01:51:08.300 --> 01:51:08.680 +and you know It's it makes your you can edit + +01:51:10.580 --> 01:51:10.960 +things and then you can edit your system + +01:51:13.900 --> 01:51:14.340 +files and teach yourself how to manage a GNU + +01:51:17.860 --> 01:51:18.040 +system and you can You know so Emacs is + +01:51:19.540 --> 01:51:19.840 +really powerful as a practical tool. + +01:51:21.560 --> 01:51:21.720 +Like I keep coming back to that point when I + +01:51:25.040 --> 01:51:25.320 +think about Emacs, like I really put it as + +01:51:27.380 --> 01:51:27.880 +like, it's an important tool on the like + +01:51:31.780 --> 01:51:32.080 +humans inventing tools level just because it + +01:51:35.080 --> 01:51:35.280 +lets me make this editor into whatever I need + +01:51:37.580 --> 01:51:38.080 +it to be to get my actual work done. + +01:51:39.520 --> 01:51:39.860 +Whether that's getting the length, + +01:51:41.460 --> 01:51:41.600 +maybe that's making the font big enough that + +01:51:43.260 --> 01:51:43.380 +I can see it, or making it easy enough to + +01:51:44.760 --> 01:51:45.060 +change from this font to that font, + +01:51:45.920 --> 01:51:46.420 +changing the background colors, + +01:51:47.960 --> 01:51:48.460 +like your basic vision, + +01:51:49.960 --> 01:51:50.460 +accessibility issues, right? + +01:51:52.740 --> 01:51:53.120 +All, you know, solved, + +01:51:55.080 --> 01:51:55.320 +I can bake that customization in and I can + +01:51:56.320 --> 01:51:56.580 +pretty much depend on, + +01:51:57.900 --> 01:51:58.400 +no matter what we change in Emacs, + +01:51:59.760 --> 01:52:00.140 +I'm gonna accept the new version, + +01:52:01.920 --> 01:52:02.220 +it's gonna be on the next computer I get, + +01:52:03.840 --> 01:52:04.000 +I'm going to install the package and my + +01:52:05.920 --> 01:52:06.100 +configuration that sets all that up will be + +01:52:10.960 --> 01:52:11.100 +there for me. Right? It's like back to + +01:52:13.300 --> 01:52:13.780 +Stefan's point, what, 6 and a half hours ago, + +01:52:16.120 --> 01:52:16.620 +I mean, you know, 20 minutes ago about + +01:52:23.680 --> 01:52:24.180 +just... Oh gosh, I lost it. + +01:52:27.980 --> 01:52:28.260 +Boy, I really thought I had handed that + +01:52:29.020 --> 01:52:29.520 +neatly back to you. + +01:52:36.040 --> 01:52:36.220 +[Speaker 1]: No problem, Yeah, I think we're in general in + +01:52:36.220 --> 01:52:36.720 +agreement. + +01:52:41.980 --> 01:52:42.480 +[Speaker 4]: If we are now in the realm of Concord, + +01:52:44.800 --> 01:52:44.960 +of harmony, and the realm of midnight in + +01:52:47.560 --> 01:52:47.720 +Europe, Should we bring this discussion to a + +01:52:49.200 --> 01:52:49.460 +close or we could go all night, + +01:52:51.180 --> 01:52:51.500 +but I'll need to explain to my employer why + +01:52:52.720 --> 01:52:53.220 +my eyes are barely open tomorrow. + +01:52:56.600 --> 01:52:57.100 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I think that's probably a good idea. + +01:52:59.960 --> 01:53:00.460 +I see some folks starting to slowly sign off. + +01:53:02.740 --> 01:53:03.060 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, also, you know, Leo, + +01:53:04.680 --> 01:53:05.180 +you could leave and just miss out. + +01:53:05.460 --> 01:53:05.960 +What? + +01:53:13.620 --> 01:53:13.820 +[Speaker 7]: Hey, Sasha, can I say something like what an + +01:53:15.880 --> 01:53:16.020 +amazing job with everything you're doing in + +01:53:16.960 --> 01:53:17.300 +the community over the years? + +01:53:18.820 --> 01:53:19.240 +I'm so impressed with Emacs News. + +01:53:22.020 --> 01:53:22.160 +What a great resource to stay up to date in + +01:53:24.720 --> 01:53:24.760 +Emacs. Just really hats off to you for a + +01:53:25.080 --> 01:53:25.580 +whole lot. + +01:53:26.680 --> 01:53:26.880 +[Speaker 3]: Thank you + +01:53:29.440 --> 01:53:29.700 +[Speaker 0]: very much. It actually turned out to be quite + +01:53:31.840 --> 01:53:32.220 +timely that John Wheatley had suggested it + +01:53:35.020 --> 01:53:35.140 +back when he was maintainer because when I + +01:53:36.980 --> 01:53:37.200 +had the kiddo, I suddenly had 0 time to + +01:53:38.000 --> 01:53:38.440 +actually write new things. + +01:53:39.560 --> 01:53:39.840 +But reading things is fine. + +01:53:41.820 --> 01:53:42.040 +I can just speed read all the Reddit things + +01:53:43.160 --> 01:53:43.660 +and put the links together. + +01:53:45.800 --> 01:53:46.300 +So I'm very glad that Emacs news is helpful. + +01:53:49.080 --> 01:53:49.580 +[Speaker 7]: it really is, yeah. + +01:53:55.380 --> 01:53:55.880 +[Speaker 3]: It is, So, okay, now let's try to go for our + +01:54:00.040 --> 01:54:00.480 +closing thoughts here while Leo's still here. + +01:54:01.740 --> 01:54:02.140 +And then if we wanna keep rolling, + +01:54:04.760 --> 01:54:05.260 +even after Leo drops, we won't tell him, + +01:54:06.420 --> 01:54:06.920 +we'll tell him we're stuck. + +01:54:12.380 --> 01:54:12.540 +[Speaker 4]: I guess that was a beacon to me to perhaps go + +01:54:14.140 --> 01:54:14.440 +for the second close of the day I've already + +01:54:18.080 --> 01:54:18.380 +done it I can do it again But I will prove + +01:54:19.300 --> 01:54:19.480 +Sasha wrong this time. + +01:54:21.020 --> 01:54:21.520 +I will miss out if need be because really, + +01:54:24.160 --> 01:54:24.660 +I have been very impressed with the sleep + +01:54:28.700 --> 01:54:29.120 +record that you had and I am very envious + +01:54:32.040 --> 01:54:32.220 +right now of your past ability to sleep more + +01:54:33.160 --> 01:54:33.380 +than 9 hours per night. + +01:54:35.440 --> 01:54:35.560 +And I wish I would be able to go back to + +01:54:37.300 --> 01:54:37.800 +this. But anyway, folks, + +01:54:38.560 --> 01:54:39.060 +I'm going to drop out. + +01:54:40.520 --> 01:54:40.680 +People might hang out for a little while + +01:54:42.360 --> 01:54:42.520 +longer. Bear in mind that Sasha might get + +01:54:44.480 --> 01:54:44.980 +called at any point to go take care of Kido. + +01:54:47.220 --> 01:54:47.720 +So this might wrap up very fast afterwards. + +01:54:49.780 --> 01:54:49.920 +But at any rate, it was my pleasure to be the + +01:54:51.420 --> 01:54:51.820 +host today. Stefan, thank you for joining. + +01:54:53.520 --> 01:54:54.020 +Bob, thank you for joining and interacting + +01:54:56.040 --> 01:54:56.320 +with us and making this a little more + +01:54:58.860 --> 01:54:59.020 +interactive and more plural than just the + +01:55:01.260 --> 01:55:01.760 +co-organizers. And on that note, + +01:55:03.640 --> 01:55:03.900 +I will be leaving. So have a wonderful night, + +01:55:05.860 --> 01:55:06.020 +everyone. And we'll see you next year for the + +01:55:06.740 --> 01:55:07.240 +next edition, potentially. + +01:55:09.560 --> 01:55:10.060 +[Speaker 3]: Thank you, Leo. You're my hero. + +01:55:11.580 --> 01:55:12.040 +I take everything I said on mumble back. + +01:55:12.280 --> 01:55:12.780 +You're amazing. + +01:55:14.840 --> 01:55:15.340 +[Speaker 4]: bye everyone. + +01:55:16.400 --> 01:55:16.680 +[Speaker 1]: All right, Thank you all. + +01:55:17.960 --> 01:55:18.220 +Take care. Bye. I will + +01:55:20.200 --> 01:55:20.580 +[Speaker 6]: also say bye bye. I also need to go to bed. + +01:55:22.200 --> 01:55:22.700 +Thank you all for this cool conference and + +01:55:24.920 --> 01:55:25.080 +hopefully we're here through the year and at + +01:55:25.900 --> 01:55:26.400 +least in 1 year. + +01:55:30.900 --> 01:55:31.400 +[Speaker 3]: You've probably made the rest of the rest of + +01:55:34.440 --> 01:55:34.700 +the victorious. You really stepped up. + +01:55:38.300 --> 01:55:38.800 +[Speaker 5]: your contributions. + +01:55:38.980 --> 01:55:39.220 +[Speaker 3]: Thanks so much for Yeah, + +01:55:40.580 --> 01:55:40.960 +[Speaker 1]: thanks so much for being a part of it, + +01:55:41.720 --> 01:55:42.100 +specifically you, Floey, + +01:55:43.480 --> 01:55:43.980 +and just everyone. Thank you all. + +01:55:48.180 --> 01:55:48.420 +[Speaker 6]: Have a nice day or night and we'll hear each + +01:55:48.740 --> 01:55:49.240 +other. Bye! + +01:55:51.220 --> 01:55:51.420 +[Speaker 1]: See you. Okay, well, + +01:55:51.880 --> 01:55:52.360 +[Speaker 3]: Thanks, Zen. I'll go next. + +01:55:53.800 --> 01:55:54.300 +I'm the next newest, I think. + +01:55:59.640 --> 01:56:00.140 +Well, I want to say also, + +01:56:01.800 --> 01:56:02.300 +you know, Bob and Stefan, + +01:56:03.660 --> 01:56:03.760 +thank you so much for jumping in and + +01:56:04.860 --> 01:56:05.360 +participating in the closing remarks. + +01:56:06.700 --> 01:56:07.200 +I too think it's a lot of, + +01:56:08.560 --> 01:56:08.960 +like, it's fun to just, + +01:56:10.760 --> 01:56:11.260 +like, share the buzz after the convention. + +01:56:13.260 --> 01:56:13.460 +We've got all these millions of ideas and + +01:56:16.120 --> 01:56:16.480 +then to have a group, a little group think + +01:56:18.960 --> 01:56:19.460 +about what we're walking away from that with. + +01:56:22.360 --> 01:56:22.540 +What is the temperature of the fire in your + +01:56:24.360 --> 01:56:24.860 +belly? And it's just... + +01:56:28.440 --> 01:56:28.740 +I mean, this is 1 of the highlights of my + +01:56:30.200 --> 01:56:30.700 +year in a way that it's just... + +01:56:31.780 --> 01:56:31.970 +I don't think other people... + +01:56:33.880 --> 01:56:34.120 +I don't think I dare explain it to other + +01:56:35.880 --> 01:56:36.020 +people. I think my wife understands and I + +01:56:40.600 --> 01:56:40.860 +will do. So thank you very much for this + +01:56:42.340 --> 01:56:42.840 +conference and the opportunity to participate + +01:56:45.540 --> 01:56:46.040 +in it. You know, just the conversation, + +01:56:48.540 --> 01:56:49.040 +how vibrant the chat is on IRC, + +01:56:52.080 --> 01:56:52.580 +how the variety of talks, + +01:56:54.140 --> 01:56:54.640 +some of the talks that look like television + +01:56:59.380 --> 01:56:59.540 +content to me and others that look a lot like + +01:57:03.840 --> 01:57:03.960 +my talk. And working through your slides and + +01:57:06.100 --> 01:57:06.280 +doing it live and you know I appreciate that + +01:57:10.240 --> 01:57:10.380 +we make a place for all those levels and and + +01:57:12.720 --> 01:57:13.220 +show people how to improve our craft as well. + +01:57:26.140 --> 01:57:26.460 +I'm not actually dropping or going anywhere. + +01:57:29.040 --> 01:57:29.220 +I'll continue to talk about eMAX until I get + +01:57:30.860 --> 01:57:31.000 +the dinner time bell. I've probably got an + +01:57:40.240 --> 01:57:40.580 +hour here. I'll tell you what will happen + +01:57:42.040 --> 01:57:42.160 +though is I'm guaranteed to light a + +01:57:43.780 --> 01:57:43.940 +cigarette. You can already see me kind of + +01:57:45.860 --> 01:57:46.160 +hovering about my room because I'm trying to + +01:57:47.440 --> 01:57:47.780 +avoid like smoking on camera. + +01:57:49.300 --> 01:57:49.540 +I don't know where that came from. + +01:57:52.360 --> 01:57:52.860 +I'm giving it up in approximately 5 seconds. + +01:57:58.980 --> 01:57:59.480 +[Speaker 7]: Yeah I'm gonna hop off. + +01:58:00.800 --> 01:58:01.300 +It's possibly right here. + +01:58:02.220 --> 01:58:02.720 +I'll work tomorrow. + +01:58:06.200 --> 01:58:06.380 +[Speaker 3]: I took the next 2 days off. + +01:58:07.320 --> 01:58:07.820 +I'm actually going camping, + +01:58:11.040 --> 01:58:11.280 +Stefan. I know I've learned that this + +01:58:12.800 --> 01:58:13.300 +conference leaves me completely emotionally + +01:58:16.360 --> 01:58:16.860 +exhausted. I just like, + +01:58:18.700 --> 01:58:19.140 +I don't know, I watch all, + +01:58:20.820 --> 01:58:21.320 +I feel like I just connect with all the, + +01:58:23.440 --> 01:58:23.640 +like it's this time where I connect with all + +01:58:25.260 --> 01:58:25.580 +these people that spend as much time thinking + +01:58:26.580 --> 01:58:27.080 +about Emacs as I do. + +01:58:31.480 --> 01:58:31.760 +[Speaker 0]: All right, so maybe we should wrap up before + +01:58:32.440 --> 01:58:32.940 +you have like, you know, + +01:58:35.380 --> 01:58:35.880 +that overflow error and just... + +01:58:38.000 --> 01:58:38.500 +[Speaker 3]: In buster thrill, okay. + +01:58:41.720 --> 01:58:41.980 +Thank you + +01:58:45.200 --> 01:58:45.440 +[Speaker 0]: so much, everyone. Let us actually wrap up + +01:58:47.360 --> 01:58:47.440 +then. Everyone can find the recordings if you + +01:58:48.640 --> 01:58:49.140 +want to keep the conversation going. + +01:58:51.900 --> 01:58:52.120 +There are meetups, there are people's blog + +01:58:54.240 --> 01:58:54.520 +posts and video channels and mailing lists + +01:58:55.320 --> 01:58:55.820 +and all those other things. + +01:58:58.820 --> 01:58:59.180 +I often I list a lot of meetups in Emacs news + +01:59:00.680 --> 01:59:01.080 +so that's another great way to stay connected + +01:59:02.560 --> 01:59:03.060 +through the year and we hope to see everybody + +01:59:04.740 --> 01:59:05.240 +next year at EmacsConf 2024. + +01:59:11.260 --> 01:59:11.420 +[Speaker 4]: Thanks Sasha for the send off and goodbye to + +01:59:16.740 --> 01:59:16.940 +everyone. Oh Sasha I think you were muted but + +01:59:18.340 --> 01:59:18.520 +yes I was still there I assume that's what + +01:59:21.220 --> 01:59:21.720 +you just said. I lied. + +01:59:23.680 --> 01:59:23.920 +I was staying around like Corwin was. + +01:59:25.440 --> 01:59:25.580 +I just said goodbye, but then I wait in the + +01:59:26.520 --> 01:59:27.020 +bushes, waiting for the ambush. + +01:59:29.340 --> 01:59:29.840 +[Speaker 3]: Well I'm personally surprised, + +01:59:32.780 --> 01:59:33.040 +speaking for myself. I wouldn't have guessed + +01:59:36.040 --> 01:59:36.340 +that would happen. All right, + +01:59:36.340 --> 01:59:36.580 +[Speaker 4]: The perfect moment. well, + +01:59:37.360 --> 01:59:37.680 +I guess that's a wrap then. + +01:59:39.060 --> 01:59:39.560 +Thank you, everyone, and see you next year. + +01:59:43.440 --> 01:59:43.740 +[Speaker 3]: I thought we were clear like 10 minutes ago. + +01:59:45.340 --> 01:59:45.840 +Are we not? We are, right? + +01:59:47.400 --> 01:59:47.780 +We're definitely clear. + +01:59:48.040 --> 01:59:48.220 +[Speaker 5]: OK, I'm + +01:59:49.240 --> 01:59:49.440 +[Speaker 3]: hanging up now. Good night. + +01:59:50.640 --> 01:59:51.140 +It was wonderful to meet you. + +01:59:51.900 --> 01:59:52.400 +[Speaker 7]: Take care Corwin + +01:59:56.520 --> 01:59:57.020 +[Speaker 4]: Bye Stefan. Bye. Bye all diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-emacsen--the-emacsen-family-the-design-of-an-emacs-and-the-importance-of-lisp--fermin--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-emacsen--the-emacsen-family-the-design-of-an-emacs-and-the-importance-of-lisp--fermin--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..4f89a184 --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-emacsen--the-emacsen-family-the-design-of-an-emacs-and-the-importance-of-lisp--fermin--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,3803 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:00.540 +[Speaker 0]: Here. + +00:00:05.140 --> 00:00:05.440 +[Speaker 1]: All right. Yeah. So thanks, + +00:00:06.279 --> 00:00:06.779 +Fermin, for the great talk. + +00:00:08.039 --> 00:00:08.540 +People have questions, + +00:00:12.179 --> 00:00:12.380 +please post them on the pad or the IRC as + +00:00:13.259 --> 00:00:13.759 +well and we'll take them up. + +00:00:17.240 --> 00:00:17.480 +[Speaker 2]: Thank you very much. The guests will be here + +00:00:21.720 --> 00:00:22.220 +to answer questions. Let's see. + +00:00:23.560 --> 00:00:24.060 +Yep. + +00:00:28.080 --> 00:00:28.220 +[Speaker 1]: And also, Fermin, if you later want to + +00:00:30.660 --> 00:00:31.160 +clarify anything or fix any URLs or such, + +00:00:32.860 --> 00:00:33.000 +you're always welcome to do that either like + +00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:36.140 +on the Wiki page, or if you like email any of + +00:00:37.560 --> 00:00:37.840 +the organizers, they should be able to help + +00:00:38.400 --> 00:00:38.900 +with that as well. + +00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:41.500 +[Speaker 2]: Okay. Yeah, I put the wrong URL. + +00:00:46.020 --> 00:00:46.360 +Yeah, not a big deal really, + +00:00:48.480 --> 00:00:48.980 +if you look it up. Yeah, + +00:00:50.940 --> 00:00:51.440 +that's really better. Thank you very much. + +00:00:56.920 --> 00:00:57.420 +Checking, no questions. + +00:00:58.780 --> 00:00:59.280 +Very good to be in touch. + +00:01:17.220 --> 00:01:17.360 +[Speaker 1]: Oh, we have a question here in the big blue + +00:01:17.720 --> 00:01:18.220 +button chat. + +00:01:21.820 --> 00:01:22.320 +[Speaker 2]: Oh, public chat. I see. + +00:01:26.380 --> 00:01:26.600 +Is LEM an acronym? I think it is, + +00:01:32.960 --> 00:01:33.080 +but I never remember. The complete name is + +00:01:36.160 --> 00:01:36.660 +like something... It's also a circle, + +00:01:38.940 --> 00:01:39.440 +like, you know, a self-referencing, + +00:01:41.320 --> 00:01:41.820 +you know, recursive name. + +00:01:42.900 --> 00:01:43.400 +I never remember it, sorry. + +00:01:45.860 --> 00:01:46.360 +It's like... Yeah, someone... + +00:01:50.580 --> 00:01:51.080 +Okay, someone asked about the DEM community, + +00:01:56.200 --> 00:01:56.700 +how big it is. So I don't remember, + +00:01:57.500 --> 00:01:57.720 +to answer the question, + +00:01:58.440 --> 00:01:58.740 +I don't remember the acronym, + +00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:01.140 +but it is an acronym. I just never... + +00:02:04.700 --> 00:02:05.060 +And it's not written anywhere, + +00:02:06.380 --> 00:02:06.880 +I think, or someone... + +00:02:09.340 --> 00:02:09.840 +I never check it. So I... + +00:02:12.720 --> 00:02:13.220 +[Speaker 0]: I forgot. + +00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:15.820 +[Speaker 2]: My maintainer told me once and then So, + +00:02:17.540 --> 00:02:17.900 +whole large, does Leia have a package + +00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:20.300 +manager? We do have a package manager, + +00:02:21.900 --> 00:02:22.400 +funnily enough. We use the QuickLisp + +00:02:26.200 --> 00:02:26.700 +infrastructure to get packages, + +00:02:29.580 --> 00:02:30.080 +so it's very easy to install packages. + +00:02:33.340 --> 00:02:33.840 +So basically, we don't have a package manager + +00:02:35.740 --> 00:02:36.240 +as in Emacs, half a packet.l. + +00:02:39.140 --> 00:02:39.400 +We're using the same common list + +00:02:41.180 --> 00:02:41.460 +infrastructure to provide the different + +00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:46.060 +packages. We also have a talk with the + +00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:47.620 +Ultralisp, which is like a, + +00:02:48.640 --> 00:02:48.900 +you know, QuickLisp is like, + +00:02:50.020 --> 00:02:50.520 +you can think quickly of Melpa. + +00:02:52.540 --> 00:02:53.040 +Ultralisp is like a fast Melpa, + +00:02:54.440 --> 00:02:54.900 +very fast Melpa, that every, + +00:02:58.460 --> 00:02:58.660 +I think every day you can get a package from + +00:03:01.720 --> 00:03:01.880 +them. And We have a tag system that you can + +00:03:02.920 --> 00:03:03.420 +submit a package and get a tag, + +00:03:08.180 --> 00:03:08.360 +and Theory can download those packages with + +00:03:13.140 --> 00:03:13.640 +the lem tag. So the thing is, + +00:03:17.040 --> 00:03:17.440 +it's not yet, it doesn't have a user + +00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:18.900 +interface to install packages. + +00:03:22.020 --> 00:03:22.520 +Still, it's 2 external packages. + +00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:25.920 +For now, imagine this is like the early + +00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:27.960 +Emacs, right? Everything is going to the core + +00:03:29.040 --> 00:03:29.540 +for now, because we need that functionality. + +00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:32.680 +In the future, we probably will split it up + +00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:37.620 +way more. But let me first answer a question + +00:03:42.440 --> 00:03:42.740 +in the other part. How large is the LEN + +00:03:44.440 --> 00:03:44.720 +community? Hope it's a chance of survival + +00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:47.860 +long term. So we are a very small community, + +00:03:51.260 --> 00:03:51.760 +mostly because Sasaki-san, + +00:03:54.120 --> 00:03:54.620 +the main developers of the community, + +00:03:57.160 --> 00:03:57.440 +are from Japan and some of them, + +00:03:58.620 --> 00:03:59.120 +or most of them, don't know English. + +00:04:01.640 --> 00:04:01.960 +At the beginning, LEM was a very + +00:04:05.020 --> 00:04:05.220 +Japanese-centric tooling because barrier of + +00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:07.460 +language, most of the users are from Japan. + +00:04:08.640 --> 00:04:09.140 +So different communities. + +00:04:12.040 --> 00:04:12.260 +And also, I don't know why, + +00:04:13.100 --> 00:04:13.520 +but the main maintainer, + +00:04:17.740 --> 00:04:18.079 +which is Asaki-san, very good guy and a very, + +00:04:19.079 --> 00:04:19.579 +very talented developer. + +00:04:21.779 --> 00:04:22.280 +He doesn't like to, you know, + +00:04:24.640 --> 00:04:25.020 +at first the project was all in Japanese, + +00:04:27.100 --> 00:04:27.260 +so he doesn't care if someone uses the + +00:04:28.520 --> 00:04:29.020 +project or not. He's more focused on the, + +00:04:32.080 --> 00:04:32.560 +I guess, quality of the features of it. + +00:04:35.740 --> 00:04:36.240 +So that creates a problem that doesn't really + +00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:39.000 +mind the community. So the community doesn't + +00:04:41.640 --> 00:04:41.760 +mind in a good way. It's to focus more on + +00:04:43.440 --> 00:04:43.940 +technicality rather than the user, + +00:04:46.300 --> 00:04:46.800 +which I mean, I cannot blame him. + +00:04:49.540 --> 00:04:49.700 +It's very hard work to build an Emacs and + +00:04:52.540 --> 00:04:53.040 +editor from scratch. It's not a trivial task. + +00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:56.660 +So yeah, we're a very small community. + +00:04:58.660 --> 00:04:58.940 +But I think the chance of survival is very + +00:05:01.440 --> 00:05:01.640 +good because LEM is written in ANSI Common + +00:05:04.540 --> 00:05:05.040 +Lisp, so it should be used in any... + +00:05:07.440 --> 00:05:07.940 +Well, it works in a lot of Common Lisp + +00:05:10.400 --> 00:05:10.900 +implementation. For people who don't know, + +00:05:12.180 --> 00:05:12.400 +Common Lisp is a language that was + +00:05:13.140 --> 00:05:13.640 +standardized in the 94. + +00:05:14.640 --> 00:05:14.840 +I explained that in the talk, + +00:05:15.660 --> 00:05:16.160 +but I'll say it again. + +00:05:18.080 --> 00:05:18.580 +So, if Common Lisp exists, + +00:05:21.200 --> 00:05:21.700 +in theory, LEM should also exist. + +00:05:24.340 --> 00:05:24.840 +And also if nCursor doesn't break or doesn't + +00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:28.060 +stop to exist, which is even less likely. + +00:05:30.400 --> 00:05:30.900 +So that's the main idea. + +00:05:33.460 --> 00:05:33.740 +And you can use LEM for very good Common Lisp + +00:05:36.380 --> 00:05:36.600 +development already. If Common Lisp doesn't + +00:05:39.440 --> 00:05:39.940 +change that much, it should disappear. + +00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:43.220 +We are not bound to any company or any... + +00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:46.540 +Even Sasaki-san, God forbid, + +00:05:47.720 --> 00:05:48.220 +disappears instantaneously. + +00:05:50.280 --> 00:05:50.740 +There are a few people, + +00:05:52.260 --> 00:05:52.440 +me included, that know very well the code + +00:05:54.020 --> 00:05:54.520 +base and we can continue the development. + +00:05:56.320 --> 00:05:56.720 +So it's not like 1, there's no one-man + +00:05:58.860 --> 00:05:59.360 +project. Maybe a four-man project or 5, + +00:06:04.280 --> 00:06:04.640 +but not 1. Okay, I'll answer the 1 in the + +00:06:08.100 --> 00:06:08.600 +chat, on the blue button. + +00:06:10.520 --> 00:06:10.840 +Is it best to learn Common Lisp before + +00:06:13.100 --> 00:06:13.600 +learning to use LEM? I think this is similar + +00:06:15.780 --> 00:06:16.280 +to Emacs and EmacLisp, + +00:06:18.740 --> 00:06:19.080 +right? Should you use EmacLisp before using + +00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:20.460 +Emacs? Doesn't make too much sense, + +00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:23.860 +right? You see Emacs and then you go learning + +00:06:28.620 --> 00:06:29.060 +Common Lisp. I think it's the same, + +00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:31.300 +sorry, EmacsLisp. And it's the same with LEM. + +00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:33.300 +You can start using LEM with a non-common + +00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:38.040 +Lisp, which is fine. You can use it to edit + +00:06:39.020 --> 00:06:39.520 +your things. It's like an editor. + +00:06:42.900 --> 00:06:43.040 +But like Emacs, LEM puts a lot of focus on + +00:06:46.820 --> 00:06:46.960 +extensibility. So it's very probable that you + +00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:50.420 +will learn how to write Common Lisp. + +00:06:53.440 --> 00:06:53.600 +I have to say that a lot of people that use + +00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:56.440 +LEM, well, me and most of the people, + +00:06:59.060 --> 00:06:59.440 +come from Emacs. So if you come from Emacs + +00:07:00.620 --> 00:07:01.120 +and you know a little bit of Emac Lisp, + +00:07:04.820 --> 00:07:05.320 +Common Lisp is like an uncle or cousin + +00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:07.620 +distance that shares some similarities. + +00:07:09.820 --> 00:07:10.020 +So you will... Well, it's not going to be + +00:07:12.520 --> 00:07:13.020 +that. I can show... Sorry about that. + +00:07:14.960 --> 00:07:15.460 +For example, I show that in the... + +00:07:21.780 --> 00:07:22.280 +I can show... So the... + +00:07:27.080 --> 00:07:27.540 +It's not that different from Emacs regarding + +00:07:28.940 --> 00:07:29.440 +configuration. So for example, + +00:07:31.020 --> 00:07:31.520 +this command doesn't exist on LEM. + +00:07:35.020 --> 00:07:35.520 +And Sasaki-san didn't want to copy one-to-one + +00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:36.860 +the command from Emacs, + +00:07:39.660 --> 00:07:39.860 +the airgrip, the cursor grip command of + +00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:41.620 +Emacs. And I said, okay, + +00:07:43.080 --> 00:07:43.440 +then I'm going to implement it myself. + +00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:44.740 +And it's something like this, + +00:07:47.960 --> 00:07:48.080 +which is you will do something similar to + +00:07:50.320 --> 00:07:50.500 +Emacs, right? This will be like things at + +00:07:52.280 --> 00:07:52.780 +point symbol or something like that. + +00:07:54.740 --> 00:07:55.240 +And then you have a prompt, + +00:07:59.060 --> 00:07:59.440 +very prompt for directory with Emacs would be + +00:08:01.260 --> 00:08:01.560 +something similar. And then you then launch + +00:08:02.960 --> 00:08:03.460 +grep with the command that you want. + +00:08:06.340 --> 00:08:06.780 +This is not that far from Emacs, + +00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:10.840 +this, really. If you don't know neither of + +00:08:12.740 --> 00:08:13.240 +those, you can still use LEM, + +00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:17.060 +though as with Emacs, extensibility will be, + +00:08:22.440 --> 00:08:22.760 +well, you couldn't extend it if you don't + +00:08:28.700 --> 00:08:29.100 +know combo disp. Should I answer the question + +00:08:33.280 --> 00:08:33.780 +on the etherpad writing it at the same time? + +00:08:36.580 --> 00:08:36.760 +[Speaker 1]: You're welcome to, but you don't have to. + +00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:38.500 +You can just answer here on stream, + +00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:40.940 +[Speaker 2]: on the Google button. Okay. + +00:08:43.140 --> 00:08:43.640 +Okay. Are there any Lisp machine capabilities + +00:08:45.020 --> 00:08:45.280 +you're trying to provide that GNU image + +00:08:46.920 --> 00:08:47.040 +lacks? The type objects capability in the + +00:08:47.560 --> 00:08:48.060 +editor, as an example. + +00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:54.340 +I mean, there were a few discussions about + +00:08:59.920 --> 00:09:00.060 +the Lisp machines and LEM and all the big + +00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:03.280 +projects that tries to get some capability of + +00:09:05.180 --> 00:09:05.680 +it. But we don't really... + +00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:10.340 +We try to improve the development experience + +00:09:12.800 --> 00:09:13.300 +for Common Lisp and for LEM, + +00:09:18.460 --> 00:09:18.660 +imitating a lot of things that the Lisp + +00:09:21.560 --> 00:09:22.060 +machine had. I'm going to try to do a thing + +00:09:23.400 --> 00:09:23.900 +that I don't know if it's going to work. + +00:09:26.880 --> 00:09:27.380 +So to explain this, let's see. + +00:09:35.680 --> 00:09:36.180 +I'm going to recompile them now live. + +00:09:42.040 --> 00:09:42.540 +Let's see how it works. + +00:09:47.860 --> 00:09:48.240 +And compiling the, yes, + +00:09:51.780 --> 00:09:52.280 +it doesn't work. OK. What if I do? + +00:09:53.900 --> 00:09:54.220 +No, it doesn't work. OK. + +00:09:55.280 --> 00:09:55.760 +I was trying to compile the SDL2, + +00:09:57.540 --> 00:09:58.040 +but I do have the codebase modifier. + +00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:00.860 +I should be able to compile this. + +00:10:05.640 --> 00:10:06.140 +Oh, that was really bad. + +00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:13.580 +What about example? I have the code base, + +00:10:17.220 --> 00:10:17.720 +so let me check. I'm going to do this. + +00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:19.580 +Oh, yeah, I have this modified. + +00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:31.620 +I stash this. OK. I have this modified. + +00:10:33.280 --> 00:10:33.780 +Now it should work. OK. + +00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:42.820 +Sorry. I was going to show the writing + +00:10:45.620 --> 00:10:45.900 +capabilities of it, similar to the Lisp + +00:10:47.800 --> 00:10:48.300 +machine of navigating of classes. + +00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:52.500 +So the answer of that question is, + +00:10:57.040 --> 00:10:57.180 +not really. We don't try to emulate this + +00:10:58.440 --> 00:10:58.940 +machine, nor any like of that. + +00:11:05.500 --> 00:11:06.000 +But yeah. Let me, I'm going to try to, + +00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:07.620 +okay, now I'm back at them. + +00:11:12.180 --> 00:11:12.500 +Okay. So what about using them for things + +00:11:13.260 --> 00:11:13.760 +other than common, common, + +00:11:16.160 --> 00:11:16.500 +that markets? Okay. So yes, + +00:11:18.280 --> 00:11:18.480 +we do have, so I'm going to show the code + +00:11:20.280 --> 00:11:20.780 +base a little bit. Like I said before, + +00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:25.600 +we don't have yet too much external packages + +00:11:26.500 --> 00:11:27.000 +because of the size of the community. + +00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:30.940 +I have a question. Go ahead, + +00:11:32.160 --> 00:11:32.660 +you can write it, Michael. + +00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:38.300 +Yeah. So, yes, as you can see here, + +00:11:43.900 --> 00:11:44.340 +this is almost all, or 99% of the major modes + +00:11:46.160 --> 00:11:46.620 +we have. We use the same terminology of + +00:11:47.640 --> 00:11:48.140 +SkinnyMemax in that way. + +00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:49.440 +For example, the C mode, + +00:11:51.460 --> 00:11:51.580 +if you go inside, you see that this is the + +00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:53.980 +fine major mode. So in that regard, + +00:11:54.800 --> 00:11:55.300 +it's very similar to Emacs. + +00:11:56.600 --> 00:11:57.100 +And we have something called a JIT, + +00:11:58.320 --> 00:11:58.820 +which is like a maggot. + +00:12:00.280 --> 00:12:00.780 +And you can edit files. + +00:12:02.500 --> 00:12:02.980 +You can use not only for common lists. + +00:12:06.820 --> 00:12:07.320 +In my configuration, which is written, + +00:12:11.140 --> 00:12:11.640 +I will post that later, + +00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:15.640 +but if you go to my code burg you can see my + +00:12:16.460 --> 00:12:16.960 +configuration which is, + +00:12:20.460 --> 00:12:20.640 +which I do have. So for example you can use + +00:12:22.260 --> 00:12:22.760 +it for a scheme. We have a swank server. + +00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:24.340 +This is the configuration to use it. + +00:12:25.900 --> 00:12:26.040 +You can use it for JavaScript because we have + +00:12:28.180 --> 00:12:28.680 +a native LSP client written in. + +00:12:29.540 --> 00:12:29.800 +And we have Dired. Yeah, + +00:12:33.820 --> 00:12:34.320 +this is Dired. We have Dired indeed. + +00:12:35.560 --> 00:12:35.740 +No, it's not Dired, you know. + +00:12:36.260 --> 00:12:36.760 +It's called directory. + +00:12:38.860 --> 00:12:39.360 +Sasaki-san, which is the main maintainer, + +00:12:43.100 --> 00:12:43.600 +doesn't like to copy one-to-one Emacs names, + +00:12:48.700 --> 00:12:49.200 +but we are the same. We also have projects, + +00:12:51.780 --> 00:12:52.280 +which is like projectile. + +00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:55.240 +So, you know, they're very similar but not + +00:12:56.940 --> 00:12:57.440 +the same. We also have a VI configuration, + +00:12:59.220 --> 00:12:59.380 +as you can see. I'm using the VI commands and + +00:13:00.100 --> 00:13:00.600 +stuff, and it's very good. + +00:13:03.940 --> 00:13:04.120 +I will say not as good as an evil because it + +00:13:06.680 --> 00:13:07.180 +still needs some polish, + +00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:08.500 +but it's getting there. + +00:13:13.780 --> 00:13:13.860 +So we can also program in JavaScript and a + +00:13:16.160 --> 00:13:16.660 +lot of LSP things, and Elixir, + +00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:19.100 +which was recently added by myself. + +00:13:21.580 --> 00:13:22.080 +And yeah, it's very fun to add new modes. + +00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:27.940 +OK, what else next? What about user-level + +00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:28.940 +things other than coding? + +00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:31.880 +What about using this in conjunction with + +00:13:34.340 --> 00:13:34.840 +Nix? Oh, so there's a big, + +00:13:36.980 --> 00:13:37.480 +so like I said before, + +00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:40.200 +there were like an issue that 3 main common + +00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:41.460 +list project were talking, + +00:13:46.920 --> 00:13:47.420 +some of the users. So the 3 main projects are + +00:13:49.340 --> 00:13:49.840 +LEM, probably, Nixed, and then StamWM, + +00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:53.000 +the 3 main, well, 3 big, + +00:13:55.280 --> 00:13:55.440 +common list projects that are trying to + +00:13:57.720 --> 00:13:58.040 +emulate an Emacs experience in different + +00:14:00.100 --> 00:14:00.340 +fields. 1 is Editor, the other 1 is Window + +00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:02.220 +Manager, and the 1 is the browser. + +00:14:06.560 --> 00:14:06.820 +The problem is that the design of the 3 are + +00:14:11.680 --> 00:14:11.960 +very different. So Nix is very focused on the + +00:14:14.900 --> 00:14:15.060 +browser. You can connect to Nix. + +00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:16.920 +So given that they're both a common list, + +00:14:18.940 --> 00:14:19.160 +you can connect to Nix from them and vice + +00:14:21.420 --> 00:14:21.600 +versa. And you can send commands and you can, + +00:14:22.580 --> 00:14:23.080 +so you have this kind of interoperability + +00:14:31.420 --> 00:14:31.580 +with both. But no, you cannot combine both to + +00:14:35.280 --> 00:14:35.780 +have 1 LEMNIX. That would be very sick. + +00:14:39.400 --> 00:14:39.600 +I would love it. But the effort is just too + +00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:41.280 +much. Keep in mind we are a very small + +00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:45.060 +community. The LEM, like I said, + +00:14:49.920 --> 00:14:50.140 +we are like 345 developers that write + +00:14:51.880 --> 00:14:52.380 +packages and answer questions and stuff. + +00:14:55.380 --> 00:14:55.880 +Now we need users in that way to test things. + +00:14:58.480 --> 00:14:58.820 +So what is the license of LEM? + +00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:00.980 +The license of LEM is MAT. + +00:15:02.860 --> 00:15:03.180 +We have some components of all the various + +00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:04.980 +licenses, but the main 1 is MAT. + +00:15:07.160 --> 00:15:07.660 +I didn't choose the license of it. + +00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:11.820 +I would highly prefer a more like GPL 1, + +00:15:13.500 --> 00:15:14.000 +but like I said I'm not a maintainer, + +00:15:15.860 --> 00:15:16.360 +so the license is MAT. + +00:15:19.820 --> 00:15:20.320 +This question, I realize, + +00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:22.200 +how far is LEM from being able to remove a + +00:15:26.500 --> 00:15:26.940 +list libraries? OK, that's a big question + +00:15:30.660 --> 00:15:30.920 +indeed. And Funny enough, + +00:15:31.800 --> 00:15:32.300 +2 years ago in the EmacsConf, + +00:15:34.340 --> 00:15:34.700 +I talk about this, not with LEM, + +00:15:36.340 --> 00:15:36.480 +but with Common Lisp and Emacs Lisp in + +00:15:41.880 --> 00:15:42.100 +general. So I'm not the only 1 thinking about + +00:15:44.100 --> 00:15:44.240 +this. In fact, I'm talking with someone that + +00:15:46.740 --> 00:15:46.960 +is trying to write like a Emacs Lisp + +00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:48.620 +interpreter to work with them. + +00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:52.740 +The thing is that Emaclist libraries, + +00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:55.580 +so the API is just very different. + +00:15:57.720 --> 00:15:58.220 +That's the main problem. + +00:15:58.940 --> 00:15:59.440 +That's really the problem. + +00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:02.820 +You can, so you can, let me see. + +00:16:13.380 --> 00:16:13.880 +So, you can have an Emacs list buffer of LEM. + +00:16:15.420 --> 00:16:15.920 +This is an Emacs list rebel. + +00:16:21.380 --> 00:16:21.560 +I wrote an LRSP client so you can connect to + +00:16:23.140 --> 00:16:23.560 +Emacs and send things and stuff. + +00:16:25.160 --> 00:16:25.660 +So you're friends that we share stuff. + +00:16:28.340 --> 00:16:28.840 +But having a complete Emacless implementation + +00:16:37.400 --> 00:16:37.600 +with LEM and work with both API will be a + +00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:42.600 +huge work. Very like, it's even if they share + +00:16:43.680 --> 00:16:44.180 +very similar thing, in fact, + +00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:46.980 +API in some places is very similar. + +00:16:48.540 --> 00:16:49.040 +Down the line infrastructure, + +00:16:52.220 --> 00:16:52.720 +so the code is, so it's completely different. + +00:16:56.680 --> 00:16:56.840 +It will be very hard. We do have a clone of + +00:16:58.940 --> 00:16:59.440 +maggot that works, more or less. + +00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:01.940 +Well, it does work, but maggot's just better. + +00:17:03.340 --> 00:17:03.820 +But it's getting there. + +00:17:05.020 --> 00:17:05.460 +So like I said, we're trying to, + +00:17:06.220 --> 00:17:06.720 +not to copy one-to-one, + +00:17:09.640 --> 00:17:10.140 +but to adapting each tool to LEM. + +00:17:13.260 --> 00:17:13.760 +How are LEM buffer designs similar to Emacs? + +00:17:19.700 --> 00:17:20.020 +So yeah, that would be, + +00:17:21.260 --> 00:17:21.760 +so how a blend buffer design, + +00:17:24.780 --> 00:17:25.280 +similar to Emacs. So similar in what way, + +00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:26.819 +actually with properties. + +00:17:29.180 --> 00:17:29.480 +I think that you've seen, + +00:17:31.220 --> 00:17:31.560 +so you do have like a font lock, + +00:17:32.420 --> 00:17:32.920 +different kind of properties, + +00:17:37.820 --> 00:17:38.040 +but it's not exactly how Emac does it with + +00:17:41.740 --> 00:17:42.180 +overlays and stuff. You can, + +00:17:43.080 --> 00:17:43.580 +so if you're very interested, + +00:17:45.300 --> 00:17:45.800 +I don't want to go too much deep into the, + +00:17:51.500 --> 00:17:51.720 +let me go to, I don't want to go too much + +00:17:55.380 --> 00:17:55.760 +deep into the technicality of things now, + +00:17:57.920 --> 00:17:58.080 +but you can go. So LEM is written 100% in + +00:18:00.040 --> 00:18:00.380 +Common Lisp. So if you know Common Lisp, + +00:18:03.900 --> 00:18:04.040 +you can go to buffer. You can check all the + +00:18:08.520 --> 00:18:09.020 +codes here. Always we have, + +00:18:12.780 --> 00:18:13.280 +we also have this, which is like StreamX. + +00:18:17.860 --> 00:18:18.360 +Sorry to that, I don't. + +00:18:21.900 --> 00:18:22.400 +But yeah, So you can see. + +00:18:24.440 --> 00:18:24.940 +So yeah, if you go to the code base, + +00:18:26.780 --> 00:18:27.280 +maybe some of you can check this problem. + +00:18:28.500 --> 00:18:29.000 +Well, not problem, but yeah. + +00:18:30.340 --> 00:18:30.840 +That's this Japanese comment. + +00:18:35.560 --> 00:18:36.060 +You can see here why it's very, + +00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:38.300 +you have to translate and stuff, + +00:18:39.560 --> 00:18:40.060 +which is sometimes a little bit annoying. + +00:18:44.540 --> 00:18:45.040 +But yeah, some of them are in English. + +00:18:47.020 --> 00:18:47.440 +So this play is not the same. + +00:18:48.800 --> 00:18:49.200 +So if you're interested, + +00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:51.400 +you can go to the buffer and check it out for + +00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:53.600 +yourself. But I think it uses the overlay in + +00:18:58.620 --> 00:18:58.900 +a different way. So the implementation is + +00:19:04.800 --> 00:19:05.020 +different that way. Oh, + +00:19:10.875 --> 00:19:11.375 +[Speaker 0]: This module. Oh, this is very low. + +00:19:12.560 --> 00:19:13.060 +[Speaker 2]: this is fairly low. What other things or + +00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:15.600 +experiences that I can show you? + +00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:16.420 +Just like you show you. + +00:19:18.120 --> 00:19:18.620 +Any marks? + +00:19:32.860 --> 00:19:33.360 +Okay, very interesting question. + +00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:34.500 +What are the things... + +00:19:37.460 --> 00:19:37.960 +So that's interesting. + +00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:43.220 +Let me see. So forgive me, + +00:19:49.660 --> 00:19:49.760 +you answered this. I talked briefly in the + +00:19:53.560 --> 00:19:53.780 +talk about this, but basically I like + +00:19:55.840 --> 00:19:56.340 +Komaldisp, I have the mascot here. + +00:19:58.040 --> 00:19:58.540 +[Speaker 3]: a very + +00:20:04.740 --> 00:20:04.840 +[Speaker 2]: It's Italian thing. I like Common Lisp and I + +00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:08.800 +think GmagLisp is a very good friend of + +00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:10.520 +Common Lisp in the way that Serious Software + +00:20:11.840 --> 00:20:12.340 +Analysis is a very good uncle. + +00:20:18.800 --> 00:20:19.300 +Let me answer first the 1. + +00:20:24.140 --> 00:20:24.620 +So I like to extend it in Common Lisp. + +00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:26.140 +I like the Common Lisp libraries. + +00:20:30.100 --> 00:20:30.360 +And I think them have a better design in + +00:20:31.220 --> 00:20:31.720 +terms of its 1 language, + +00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:33.980 +which I think is a nice strength. + +00:20:36.580 --> 00:20:36.660 +Like, 1 of the things that put me off when I + +00:20:38.680 --> 00:20:39.020 +was using Emacs, I love to extend the editor + +00:20:40.600 --> 00:20:41.100 +and to go inside and stuff. + +00:20:43.360 --> 00:20:43.520 +And 1 of the things that I'm not a big fan of + +00:20:44.820 --> 00:20:45.020 +C. If you're a fan of C, + +00:20:47.040 --> 00:20:47.240 +you will be very pleasant with finding C + +00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:50.660 +stuff, but I don't. So when I'm trying to + +00:20:52.340 --> 00:20:52.840 +hack an Emacs and go inside the things, + +00:20:54.140 --> 00:20:54.640 +I will control C code. + +00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:56.660 +That's not that interactive as the Emaclist + +00:20:59.340 --> 00:20:59.840 +1, and that would be like a fuzzball for me. + +00:21:03.740 --> 00:21:04.080 +I was always dreaming about that stuff, + +00:21:05.320 --> 00:21:05.820 +having like everything in 1 language. + +00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:08.160 +The thing that LEM does to me is like it + +00:21:12.100 --> 00:21:12.560 +allows me to extend the editor to modify + +00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:14.660 +also, to modify in Common Lisp. + +00:21:17.660 --> 00:21:18.160 +Also, I like the language and technology. + +00:21:19.600 --> 00:21:19.900 +It's a bold thing, right? + +00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:21.980 +It's a world language that I love, + +00:21:23.740 --> 00:21:24.240 +and Emacs that I love. + +00:21:25.380 --> 00:21:25.880 +Emacs, I'm a big fan of, + +00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:27.520 +or a user of GNU Emacs. + +00:21:29.380 --> 00:21:29.880 +And LEM is like Emacs plus Common Lisp, + +00:21:30.600 --> 00:21:30.900 +but with a different design. + +00:21:32.360 --> 00:21:32.860 +I don't want to, It's not a clone. + +00:21:37.800 --> 00:21:38.040 +I want to get this very clear that LEM is not + +00:21:40.760 --> 00:21:41.140 +a clone of Emacs. The sign is very different + +00:21:43.180 --> 00:21:43.500 +in a lot of ways. But it's very inspired, + +00:21:44.380 --> 00:21:44.880 +and that cannot be denied. + +00:21:48.280 --> 00:21:48.780 +[Speaker 1]: I can jump in for a second. + +00:21:51.120 --> 00:21:51.360 +I think we're like 15 minutes into the lunch + +00:21:52.660 --> 00:21:53.040 +break, but you're welcome to continue + +00:21:55.600 --> 00:21:55.760 +answering questions. But if anyone on the + +00:21:57.500 --> 00:21:58.000 +stream or folks want to go grab lunch, + +00:21:59.760 --> 00:21:59.860 +feel free to do that. I'm probably going to + +00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:02.040 +do that as well. But yeah, + +00:22:03.760 --> 00:22:03.920 +we can either continue keeping this on the + +00:22:06.180 --> 00:22:06.440 +stream, or if people would like to come join + +00:22:08.600 --> 00:22:09.100 +here on BigBlueButton and talk to Fermin, + +00:22:11.040 --> 00:22:11.540 +like folks have already done that, + +00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:12.940 +yeah, you're welcome to. + +00:22:14.620 --> 00:22:15.120 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah, go ahead. No problem. + +00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:17.000 +Thank you. Thank you, Vitaliy. + +00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:25.280 +Cheers. Cheers. So finishing the answer to + +00:22:30.080 --> 00:22:30.380 +the question, I think LEM does tries to fix + +00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:32.380 +some Emacs problems, can we fix problems + +00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:35.700 +regarding the internal API, + +00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:37.480 +which makes sense, right? + +00:22:39.060 --> 00:22:39.560 +Emacs have like 40 years, + +00:22:42.280 --> 00:22:42.780 +which is a lot. And yeah, + +00:22:44.760 --> 00:22:45.060 +which is, that's what makes me happy. + +00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:47.720 +I use both now. I use Maggis and Emacs for + +00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:50.460 +some languages and then I use LEM for Common + +00:22:51.100 --> 00:22:51.600 +Lisp and other languages. + +00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:55.740 +You can also use LEM for EmacLisp, + +00:22:59.760 --> 00:22:59.960 +which makes LEM the second best editor for + +00:23:02.360 --> 00:23:02.860 +EmacLisp. It was a funny thing to do. + +00:23:05.980 --> 00:23:06.100 +OK, so do you think LEM will continue to have + +00:23:06.760 --> 00:23:07.260 +a lot of Japanese documentation? + +00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:12.180 +So there's not that many Japanese + +00:23:12.780 --> 00:23:13.280 +documentation, really. + +00:23:18.280 --> 00:23:18.480 +So there's a few comments here and there, + +00:23:20.800 --> 00:23:20.920 +but it's not full. We have a web page with a + +00:23:22.020 --> 00:23:22.520 +lot of documentation in English. + +00:23:25.380 --> 00:23:25.880 +So you can take a look at that. + +00:23:29.080 --> 00:23:29.580 +But we do have to improve the documentation + +00:23:30.260 --> 00:23:30.760 +and translate it to English. + +00:23:32.220 --> 00:23:32.440 +Sasaki-san is up to it, + +00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:35.960 +but he just doesn't feel that comfortable + +00:23:36.600 --> 00:23:37.100 +translating it himself. + +00:23:38.680 --> 00:23:39.180 +So yeah. + +00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:43.220 +[Speaker 3]: So, this is Peter on BigBlueWem. + +00:23:49.620 --> 00:23:50.120 +Yeah, it's neat that Wem even exists, + +00:23:55.520 --> 00:23:55.940 +because there's always chatter on the Emacs + +00:23:58.980 --> 00:23:59.280 +mailing list to rewrite Emacs and some other + +00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:04.120 +language. And to see that it's already to see + +00:24:05.320 --> 00:24:05.820 +that I mean, you have an implementation + +00:24:08.360 --> 00:24:08.560 +sitting there and, and the thing I was + +00:24:10.600 --> 00:24:10.960 +wondering while I was listening in on the, + +00:24:14.060 --> 00:24:14.460 +on the Q and A was do you have Dured? + +00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:15.700 +Do you have Maggot? And some, + +00:24:17.100 --> 00:24:17.600 +somebody else wrote that question into, + +00:24:20.460 --> 00:24:20.640 +into Etherpad. But I was happy to see that + +00:24:22.800 --> 00:24:23.000 +you have Dured or something like it + +00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:25.440 +implemented. Because I think that's like the, + +00:24:27.040 --> 00:24:27.180 +for me, that's the most important thing in + +00:24:30.800 --> 00:24:31.000 +Emacs because that gets me around in my + +00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:35.380 +[Speaker 2]: BRODINKOVICH Yeah, for me too. + +00:24:35.740 --> 00:24:36.240 +For me too. + +00:24:37.100 --> 00:24:37.260 +[Speaker 0]: Go ahead. + +00:24:37.740 --> 00:24:37.940 +[Speaker 3]: system. VICTOR Sorry. Yeah, + +00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:40.160 +so I may try it out sometime, + +00:24:42.040 --> 00:24:42.540 +but probably won't be for like 3 or 6 months, + +00:24:45.060 --> 00:24:45.240 +because there's always a backlog of other + +00:24:46.560 --> 00:24:47.060 +things to try out. + +00:24:49.800 --> 00:24:50.300 +[Speaker 4]: I'm the 1 who wrote that question. + +00:24:54.020 --> 00:24:54.520 +And do you use, I think you have bookmarks + +00:24:55.380 --> 00:24:55.800 +and registers, I imagine, + +00:24:55.800 --> 00:24:56.300 +right? + +00:24:59.700 --> 00:25:00.060 +[Speaker 2]: I think you have. I never tried bookmarks + +00:25:01.220 --> 00:25:01.400 +because I don't use it that much. + +00:25:02.560 --> 00:25:03.060 +But I think you have something like that. + +00:25:05.420 --> 00:25:05.840 +I mean, I don't. There's a few features that + +00:25:07.360 --> 00:25:07.540 +I don't know about them because I don't use + +00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:08.980 +it much. Some features, + +00:25:11.580 --> 00:25:11.840 +I mean. But yeah, I think you have. + +00:25:13.100 --> 00:25:13.380 +Let me check. We can check, + +00:25:16.620 --> 00:25:17.120 +probably. Things in extensions, + +00:25:23.140 --> 00:25:23.480 +just directory. VNXT. Directory mode. + +00:25:28.950 --> 00:25:29.450 +So there is. So this is the Tyrant's friend. + +00:25:31.780 --> 00:25:32.230 +I won't say clone. Very inspired. + +00:25:36.580 --> 00:25:36.900 +[Speaker 4]: What about like on the note-taking front, + +00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:38.940 +like org mode, + +00:25:41.040 --> 00:25:41.380 +[Speaker 2]: You know. note... Yes, + +00:25:50.440 --> 00:25:50.940 +so... EMMS... Yes, so someone did some MMS. + +00:25:58.380 --> 00:25:58.620 +So not MMS, not much. So package for LEM that + +00:26:00.060 --> 00:26:00.400 +is now in a pull request, + +00:26:03.800 --> 00:26:04.300 +I think. But yeah, no. + +00:26:06.800 --> 00:26:07.300 +The thing is I don't use R mode that much. + +00:26:11.980 --> 00:26:12.480 +We don't have a heavy R mode user to provide + +00:26:15.020 --> 00:26:15.300 +some major mode and stuff. + +00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:18.600 +So we don't have that implemented yet. + +00:26:20.580 --> 00:26:20.900 +The thing is, my plans for, + +00:26:22.360 --> 00:26:22.860 +I do have plans for our mode. + +00:26:24.020 --> 00:26:24.520 +They're a little bit evil, + +00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:26.700 +but there's plans for it. + +00:26:27.800 --> 00:26:28.040 +So I'm planning to use, + +00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:30.060 +so rewriting our mode is a big task that I + +00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:34.700 +don't want to do. So I'm going to use Emacs + +00:26:39.020 --> 00:26:39.520 +for our mode in 2.11. I wrote a recipe, + +00:26:45.060 --> 00:26:45.380 +no, a remote procedural RPC that I'm using + +00:26:46.860 --> 00:26:47.360 +for the Red Bull and stuff. + +00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:51.200 +And I'm planning to have an Emacs Puppet to + +00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:55.220 +provide me the functionality for Org Mode. + +00:26:59.380 --> 00:26:59.760 +[Speaker 4]: I know for me, when I write notes, + +00:27:01.640 --> 00:27:01.940 +I like to note more than Org Roam just + +00:27:06.340 --> 00:27:06.840 +because I feel Org Mode is great and all, + +00:27:08.920 --> 00:27:09.060 +but if all my notes are in it, + +00:27:10.260 --> 00:27:10.760 +I kind of feel trapped by it. + +00:27:14.460 --> 00:27:14.960 +I did the talk journaling in KOutline, + +00:27:17.800 --> 00:27:18.040 +and I like that package better for some + +00:27:21.040 --> 00:27:21.260 +things and it's like if I want to put like + +00:27:24.280 --> 00:27:24.780 +the tags on PDF file names and so it's like + +00:27:28.940 --> 00:27:29.100 +Yeah, it's great and all but it's also Is + +00:27:31.560 --> 00:27:31.740 +that part of the motivation of wanting to use + +00:27:34.620 --> 00:27:35.120 +lamb is so you feel less entrapped by emacs + +00:27:38.445 --> 00:27:38.840 +No, I will say I don't no. + +00:27:40.620 --> 00:27:41.120 +[Speaker 2]: No, no. I was very happy trapping to Emacs. + +00:27:47.100 --> 00:27:47.560 +To be fair. The thing is I don't use Hormel + +00:27:48.600 --> 00:27:49.100 +that much. That's just the reality. + +00:27:52.120 --> 00:27:52.580 +Org Mode for me is a very good markup + +00:27:54.660 --> 00:27:54.810 +language, but not that much really. + +00:27:56.920 --> 00:27:57.420 +I know that Org Mode has a lot of people and + +00:27:58.740 --> 00:27:59.060 +it's used by a lot of people. + +00:28:00.060 --> 00:28:00.560 +And there's very interesting packages. + +00:28:03.700 --> 00:28:04.200 +[Speaker 4]: What about org mode versus markdown versus + +00:28:05.800 --> 00:28:06.300 +plain text versus latex then? + +00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:08.860 +[Speaker 2]: I like org mode because of the Emacs + +00:28:10.380 --> 00:28:10.880 +functionality. I think if you take that away, + +00:28:15.600 --> 00:28:16.100 +you plain or mode versus Markdown, + +00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:18.080 +I don't think there's that much difference, + +00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:20.460 +if you take the Emacs functionality away. + +00:28:24.560 --> 00:28:24.880 +I like the + +00:28:27.260 --> 00:28:27.760 +[Speaker 4]: Yeah. Emacs syntax more than Markdown. + +00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:29.900 +Like, for instance, you have the double + +00:28:31.720 --> 00:28:31.960 +square brackets, which is simpler for me to + +00:28:32.500 --> 00:28:33.000 +look at, but. + +00:28:35.820 --> 00:28:36.060 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah, I guess it's a matter of, + +00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:38.640 +I mean, we don't have yet a major mode of R + +00:28:39.800 --> 00:28:40.300 +mode, which will be quite trivial. + +00:28:42.660 --> 00:28:43.160 +Well, you know, a simple syntax highlights, + +00:28:46.040 --> 00:28:46.540 +you know, R mode in LEM, + +00:28:52.460 --> 00:28:52.960 +because no 1 wrote it. + +00:28:55.320 --> 00:28:55.640 +I mean, that's the way with this project, + +00:29:00.060 --> 00:29:00.360 +right? If you need people to be motivated to + +00:29:04.120 --> 00:29:04.620 +do that. And with LEM, + +00:29:06.540 --> 00:29:07.040 +someone asked about the Japanese. + +00:29:11.320 --> 00:29:11.820 +I think they're interested about that. + +00:29:15.040 --> 00:29:15.420 +LEM does have a thing, + +00:29:16.030 --> 00:29:16.095 +[Speaker 0]: If the it would be good. + +00:29:16.800 --> 00:29:17.160 +[Speaker 4]: I'd be able to do more, + +00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:18.500 +but that's what I + +00:29:19.370 --> 00:29:19.870 +[Speaker 0]: was doing. + +00:29:22.420 --> 00:29:22.820 +[Speaker 2]: they think True. So, for example, + +00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:24.740 +we're using another big fan of... + +00:29:27.840 --> 00:29:28.080 +I mean, I know that the main people that may + +00:29:30.280 --> 00:29:30.780 +use in the future LEM are EMACLIS people. + +00:29:33.080 --> 00:29:33.580 +A lot of them. It's very similar. + +00:29:37.540 --> 00:29:37.940 +And Sasaki-san and the LEM community mainly + +00:29:43.260 --> 00:29:43.760 +uses Discord for chat and stuff. + +00:29:46.980 --> 00:29:47.480 +I mean, we do have matrix, + +00:29:48.540 --> 00:29:48.640 +and I should connect to it, + +00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:55.320 +by the way. But we mainly use Discord, + +00:29:58.080 --> 00:29:58.580 +which I don't think is a good thing. + +00:30:01.900 --> 00:30:02.300 +I mean, to have the main communication + +00:30:05.020 --> 00:30:05.520 +channels, Discord. Because, + +00:30:09.020 --> 00:30:09.520 +well, it's Discord. It's a closed source + +00:30:13.180 --> 00:30:13.440 +application that is easy for some people, + +00:30:14.340 --> 00:30:14.840 +but for some people it's a tailbreak. + +00:30:17.040 --> 00:30:17.080 +[Speaker 0]: are in + +00:30:17.580 --> 00:30:18.080 +[Speaker 2]: Especially people that the Emacs community + +00:30:20.080 --> 00:30:20.580 +that very like free software. + +00:30:22.800 --> 00:30:23.300 +[Speaker 4]: The only good thing about Molesley is it's + +00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:26.380 +popular, but as soon as you break out of that + +00:30:28.380 --> 00:30:28.520 +mold, all of a sudden it becomes a lot + +00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:30.900 +harder. For instance, they don't have... + +00:30:33.820 --> 00:30:34.320 +All the third-party clients are unofficial + +00:30:37.340 --> 00:30:37.500 +and according to their terms of service they + +00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:40.600 +can just can you. Which is not a nice + +00:30:44.020 --> 00:30:44.180 +position to be in if you're trying to use it + +00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:47.700 +and you wanted to be a moderator using some + +00:30:50.600 --> 00:30:51.100 +side tools that weren't Discord. + +00:30:55.320 --> 00:30:55.560 +[Speaker 2]: I agree 100% and in fact I'm not a big fan, + +00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:56.900 +I don't like Discord. + +00:31:03.860 --> 00:31:04.360 +[Speaker 5]: You mentioned the RPC you did between Emacs + +00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:06.700 +and the LEM. Do you have it published + +00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:07.220 +somewhere? + +00:31:13.520 --> 00:31:14.020 +[Speaker 2]: Yes, it's in the LEM project. + +00:31:15.820 --> 00:31:16.320 +I'll copy that in the chat. + +00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:19.340 +[Speaker 5]: Okay, because I'm always interested in how + +00:31:21.560 --> 00:31:22.060 +you do like the communication with other + +00:31:24.020 --> 00:31:24.320 +programs with Emacs because that's + +00:31:24.320 --> 00:31:24.820 +interesting. + +00:31:30.140 --> 00:31:30.640 +[Speaker 2]: I'm only using the porthole package, + +00:31:32.460 --> 00:31:32.960 +I'm not writing it from scratch, + +00:31:34.340 --> 00:31:34.840 +not that much as a developer. + +00:31:37.540 --> 00:31:37.960 +[Speaker 5]: So I don't know this package. + +00:31:39.140 --> 00:31:39.640 +Maybe that's the thing I can learn. + +00:31:40.840 --> 00:31:41.140 +[Speaker 2]: Oh yeah, probably if you, + +00:31:42.360 --> 00:31:42.740 +yeah. Yeah. If you want to, + +00:31:43.860 --> 00:31:44.360 +so I didn't see this 1, + +00:31:46.420 --> 00:31:46.920 +this package for the RSP, + +00:31:48.620 --> 00:31:49.120 +which make is monthly automatically. + +00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:53.600 +[Speaker 5]: And how do you do, how do you plan to + +00:31:59.180 --> 00:31:59.440 +integrate Org Mode? Because Org Mode needs to + +00:31:59.760 --> 00:32:00.260 +work on. + +00:32:03.340 --> 00:32:03.540 +[Speaker 2]: This way? Yes, so I'm planning to have like a + +00:32:08.260 --> 00:32:08.760 +Emacs puppet and to have like a clone buffer + +00:32:11.320 --> 00:32:11.820 +from the buffer that you do in LEM and then + +00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:17.380 +the command sent into the Emacs hidden buffer + +00:32:19.820 --> 00:32:20.140 +and then the changes go back to LEM to change + +00:32:22.660 --> 00:32:23.160 +the buffer of LEM. That's my idea. + +00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:25.460 +[Speaker 5]: Okay, that's all. It's interesting. + +00:32:28.320 --> 00:32:28.540 +Would be interesting to see what comes from + +00:32:28.540 --> 00:32:29.040 +it. + +00:32:32.280 --> 00:32:32.780 +[Speaker 2]: It's a bit, it's a hackish 100%. + +00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:35.320 +It's not, you have to duplicate the + +00:32:36.020 --> 00:32:36.520 +information and stuff, + +00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:39.140 +which is, oh, by the way, + +00:32:40.320 --> 00:32:40.820 +I'm going to pass the Lemington, + +00:32:43.380 --> 00:32:43.880 +which is the name of the RSP clone. + +00:32:45.980 --> 00:32:46.480 +Sorry, the integration with Emacs, + +00:32:48.900 --> 00:32:49.400 +which is LEM with a mustache. + +00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:54.600 +[Speaker 4]: They had good news where it would do the same + +00:32:56.360 --> 00:32:56.860 +thing, where it would open up a slave Emacs, + +00:33:00.020 --> 00:33:00.520 +because it was such a performance hog for + +00:33:02.140 --> 00:33:02.640 +retrieving all the emails. + +00:33:06.940 --> 00:33:07.360 +[Speaker 2]: No. I mean, Emacs have a server, + +00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:08.860 +right? I can, in fact, + +00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:11.700 +I'm using that for, I'm already puppeting. + +00:33:13.340 --> 00:33:13.620 +Well, not puppeting. I'm already using + +00:33:15.700 --> 00:33:16.200 +Maggots. So I have this. + +00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:17.900 +Actually, let me copy. + +00:33:25.600 --> 00:33:25.920 +I have this, which is usually a little bit, + +00:33:28.080 --> 00:33:28.420 +I'm launching the Emacs daemon and then I'm + +00:33:31.500 --> 00:33:31.740 +launching Leviton. And then this is the kill + +00:33:32.300 --> 00:33:32.700 +and this is the status, + +00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:33.940 +which is basically saying, + +00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:37.180 +run this and this is this, + +00:33:42.040 --> 00:33:42.540 +which is run maggot in this file. + +00:33:43.940 --> 00:33:44.340 +If you put it side by side, + +00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:48.800 +you will check instantly that this is the + +00:33:50.900 --> 00:33:51.400 +buffer directory, LEM home, + +00:33:54.020 --> 00:33:54.520 +and then the current file. + +00:33:58.860 --> 00:33:59.360 +Because I'm launching it with the file. + +00:34:03.940 --> 00:34:04.240 +So buffer directory, which is the directory + +00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:09.739 +of the buffer. So I'm already using maggot as + +00:34:13.600 --> 00:34:14.080 +a tool outside of LEM, + +00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:15.060 +because I really like maggot. + +00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:17.420 +And this is very easy to check. + +00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:23.219 +Launch Emacs daemon. Okay. + +00:34:28.580 --> 00:34:29.080 +And then I go to local projects. + +00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:32.219 +Let's go to another 1 that is not LEM. + +00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:37.400 +[Speaker 4]: You actually have weird ideas like running it + +00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:39.860 +in daemon mode so you don't ever have to + +00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:41.340 +restart it or the images, + +00:34:43.100 --> 00:34:43.600 +I guess, that LEM has. + +00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:47.300 +[Speaker 2]: LEM does not have this kind of, + +00:34:53.719 --> 00:34:54.060 +I will call it, it doesn't have like a demon + +00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:56.780 +mode, so you have control separately, + +00:34:58.860 --> 00:34:59.360 +but keep in mind that LEM, + +00:35:01.260 --> 00:35:01.680 +it's a common list program. + +00:35:03.340 --> 00:35:03.840 +So if you use slime or Sly, + +00:35:10.080 --> 00:35:10.580 +you can easily connect to them to hack on it. + +00:35:12.380 --> 00:35:12.880 +[Speaker 4]: ever use that functionality, + +00:35:14.060 --> 00:35:14.560 +like using it from another computer? + +00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:16.900 +[Speaker 2]: Do you Another computer, + +00:35:17.600 --> 00:35:18.100 +I think the same computer, + +00:35:21.460 --> 00:35:21.620 +or maybe Sage, but yeah, + +00:35:21.820 --> 00:35:22.320 +it's very... + +00:35:24.520 --> 00:35:25.020 +[Speaker 4]: Or from like your window, + +00:35:26.640 --> 00:35:27.140 +if you were using the window... + +00:35:28.260 --> 00:35:28.580 +I can't remember the name of the window + +00:35:30.100 --> 00:35:30.600 +manager. Or if you were using... + +00:35:36.460 --> 00:35:36.960 +What? Yeah, yeah. Or using like stump, + +00:35:40.680 --> 00:35:40.760 +calling it from like stump WM or how often do + +00:35:41.500 --> 00:35:42.000 +you use that REPL? + +00:35:43.740 --> 00:35:43.940 +[Speaker 2]: SPCL? No. ThumbWM? I use it quite a lot. + +00:35:44.700 --> 00:35:45.200 +I connect to a museum, + +00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:49.760 +some WM right now, and I use LEM to connect + +00:35:52.240 --> 00:35:52.740 +to it, but I was using Emacs before. + +00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:55.960 +And you can use Sly or Slime to connect to + +00:35:58.260 --> 00:35:58.520 +LEM. So the thing that is in Common List + +00:36:00.900 --> 00:36:01.400 +makes it this kind of already out-of-the-box + +00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:04.280 +connectivity between different... + +00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:07.460 +[Speaker 4]: How many window managers have you used? + +00:36:11.120 --> 00:36:11.400 +I've used that before. + +00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:13.780 +I've also used, like right now I'm using + +00:36:14.720 --> 00:36:15.220 +Sway. I've used Xmonad, + +00:36:16.260 --> 00:36:16.760 +DWM. + +00:36:23.040 --> 00:36:23.540 +[Speaker 2]: This is awesome. What is the other 1? + +00:36:25.680 --> 00:36:26.180 +I can't remember the name. + +00:36:27.900 --> 00:36:28.380 +But it was like a few years ago. + +00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:31.020 +I've been doing some DWM for like the last + +00:36:36.260 --> 00:36:36.760 +[Speaker 4]: I remember that. Go ahead. + +00:36:37.740 --> 00:36:38.240 +[Speaker 2]: year, I think. Or 3. know, + +00:36:41.940 --> 00:36:42.440 +it's that I was... I don't know. + +00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:43.520 +[Speaker 0]: I don't a couple + +00:36:44.040 --> 00:36:44.540 +[Speaker 2]: I'd like to have of days of my... + +00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:48.400 +[Speaker 4]: I remember that that window manager seemed to + +00:36:53.300 --> 00:36:53.600 +have some unique ideas that weren't + +00:36:56.280 --> 00:36:56.780 +necessarily available on like EWM and XMLNAD. + +00:37:02.540 --> 00:37:03.040 +[Speaker 2]: So SoundLM, it's an interesting project. + +00:37:05.140 --> 00:37:05.460 +But for example, I'll change... + +00:37:06.720 --> 00:37:07.080 +So I don't have in this computer, + +00:37:08.240 --> 00:37:08.680 +but in my other computer, + +00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:14.320 +I change the mod line or bar, + +00:37:18.220 --> 00:37:18.720 +top bar, whatever, because the ThunderLVM + +00:37:21.500 --> 00:37:22.000 +doesn't only update it when you click, + +00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:25.680 +or you do some events or happen 1 minute. + +00:37:27.560 --> 00:37:27.980 +So you can see here, this is not changing + +00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:28.820 +until I click. + +00:37:33.500 --> 00:37:33.720 +[Speaker 0]: That's it. + +00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:34.600 +[Speaker 3]: AUDIENCE 1 Matthew, sorry. + +00:37:36.160 --> 00:37:36.660 +I have a quick question for Matthew. + +00:37:43.520 --> 00:37:43.640 +So is your talk going to be posted or did you + +00:37:47.420 --> 00:37:47.920 +[Speaker 4]: Go ahead. I gave them a recording. + +00:37:50.140 --> 00:37:50.640 +My talk was the K outline for journaling + +00:37:53.080 --> 00:37:53.240 +[Speaker 3]: give it live? right right it was I woke up + +00:37:54.020 --> 00:37:54.520 +too late for it Sorry, + +00:37:58.420 --> 00:37:58.920 +so I came in and I just saw Bob Weiner + +00:38:03.240 --> 00:38:03.340 +answering questions So is your talk going to + +00:38:06.560 --> 00:38:07.060 +be on the page for your talk? + +00:38:07.740 --> 00:38:07.960 +I don't + +00:38:08.560 --> 00:38:09.060 +[Speaker 0]: see it there. + +00:38:11.940 --> 00:38:12.380 +[Speaker 4]: I could give you a link to it, + +00:38:17.480 --> 00:38:17.640 +because I had, I hosted it on Mega to give it + +00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:19.020 +to them, because when I emailed it, + +00:38:22.080 --> 00:38:22.200 +[Speaker 3]: Oh, okay. Is it + +00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:22.840 +[Speaker 4]: it didn't work. on a monkey? + +00:38:23.600 --> 00:38:24.100 +Download and watch it. + +00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:29.920 +I'm probably going to post it on YouTube + +00:38:33.600 --> 00:38:33.760 +later. I, I had my face record with it, + +00:38:36.020 --> 00:38:36.520 +but I never got it edited together in time + +00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:40.640 +[Speaker 3]: Okay, if you could if you can put the link + +00:38:43.140 --> 00:38:43.340 +onto the onto the ether pad or something or + +00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:46.160 +onto the wiki then then I can find it and + +00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:50.140 +check it out. All right, + +00:38:53.040 --> 00:38:53.480 +thanks. Sorry to interrupt your time, + +00:38:56.300 --> 00:38:56.440 +Fermin, but I figure we're heavily into the + +00:38:57.260 --> 00:38:57.760 +break anyways. FERMIN GENZIERIA-CHAPMANI + +00:39:00.920 --> 00:39:01.160 +[Speaker 2]: No problem. I'm in an EMAX conference talking + +00:39:02.860 --> 00:39:03.040 +about all that I mean I'm already doing + +00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:04.780 +blasphemy so I + +00:39:24.600 --> 00:39:24.800 +think that's oh yeah notes so the thing is + +00:39:26.640 --> 00:39:27.140 +then as my point of view, + +00:39:28.860 --> 00:39:29.360 +and the point of view probably of Sasaki-san, + +00:39:30.240 --> 00:39:30.740 +just a moment, I think, + +00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:35.220 +is very focused on an IDE more than a + +00:39:40.580 --> 00:39:41.080 +node-taking editor. More like an integrated + +00:39:41.540 --> 00:39:42.040 +development environment. + +00:39:45.040 --> 00:39:45.540 +So node is like a second thing. + +00:39:51.500 --> 00:39:52.000 +So not exactly the main focus. + +00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:54.780 +And I know that Emacs does have a very strong + +00:39:58.440 --> 00:39:58.940 +community of Ormode users that use Emacs for + +00:40:00.140 --> 00:40:00.244 +Ormode, which is the killer feature, + +00:40:01.080 --> 00:40:01.360 +1 of I'll do a feature. + +00:40:04.456 --> 00:40:04.956 +I'll do a feature of Emacs. + +00:40:09.160 --> 00:40:09.660 +So I'm not the maintainer of porthole. + +00:40:20.220 --> 00:40:20.580 +I'm sorry. I did add it to so I don't + +00:40:22.700 --> 00:40:23.040 +maintain the remote. I'm sorry, + +00:40:27.400 --> 00:40:27.840 +I'll pothole the USB. I'm only using it on + +00:40:31.120 --> 00:40:31.620 +the Lamington. I cannot change anything. + +00:40:39.520 --> 00:40:39.760 +[Speaker 4]: What are some interesting things you have + +00:40:40.760 --> 00:40:41.260 +with your window manager? + +00:40:43.780 --> 00:40:44.280 +I do have elsewhere. + +00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:49.600 +[Speaker 2]: I can connect to it and hack it from my + +00:40:53.040 --> 00:40:53.540 +editor, which I think is really fun. + +00:40:56.820 --> 00:40:57.220 +The way I can write, so I wrote a few + +00:40:58.500 --> 00:40:59.000 +packages for Soundallium. + +00:41:06.740 --> 00:41:07.240 +So 1 of them is Proton, + +00:41:10.360 --> 00:41:10.860 +which basically launches like a... + +00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:18.900 +So Proton is like this wine thing that Valve + +00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:22.500 +[Speaker 4]: Yeah, I'm a user. + +00:41:24.140 --> 00:41:24.640 +[Speaker 2]: did. OK, so this basically, + +00:41:26.480 --> 00:41:26.980 +you have like a list of, + +00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:32.540 +let me check. No, we're just, + +00:41:38.780 --> 00:41:39.020 +sorry. This, So these all games are bought by + +00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:41.780 +me. They're not pirates in any way. + +00:41:45.800 --> 00:41:46.300 +I can use this to to launch it. + +00:41:50.700 --> 00:41:51.200 +[Speaker 4]: Was that Dmenu or was that StumpWM menu? + +00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:55.240 +[Speaker 2]: This is Dmenu. So I have, + +00:42:02.300 --> 00:42:02.560 +I also contribute the Dmenu integration into + +00:42:05.820 --> 00:42:06.320 +StumwM. So I use Dmenu. + +00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:07.980 +So like this, right? + +00:42:13.300 --> 00:42:13.800 +[Speaker 4]: Yeah that's pretty cool. + +00:42:15.720 --> 00:42:15.940 +You don't know how nice those things are + +00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:17.380 +until you start using those. + +00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:21.780 +[Speaker 2]: The menu is very interesting and very... + +00:42:24.060 --> 00:42:24.560 +Also I was using RoFi, + +00:42:25.680 --> 00:42:26.000 +but... + +00:42:29.100 --> 00:42:29.540 +[Speaker 4]: I was also more... The other thing I was more + +00:42:31.240 --> 00:42:31.740 +mentioning is that also, + +00:42:32.860 --> 00:42:33.340 +being able to use D-Menu, + +00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:35.300 +but being able to just have keyboard + +00:42:38.680 --> 00:42:39.180 +oriented? Everything fuzzy search narrowed + +00:42:45.420 --> 00:42:45.480 +and No tabs no status bars like all of a + +00:42:47.160 --> 00:42:47.600 +sudden your mental model on how your computer + +00:42:51.420 --> 00:42:51.560 +operates goes through the roof and a lot of + +00:42:57.900 --> 00:42:58.400 +Emacs users Know what that is like Especially + +00:43:01.240 --> 00:43:01.740 +In conjunction with a window manager? + +00:43:06.740 --> 00:43:07.200 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah, I think so. I remember when I was... + +00:43:11.320 --> 00:43:11.820 +So for me, I tried the Emacs window manager, + +00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:17.340 +but it wasn't for me. Having a single thread + +00:43:18.460 --> 00:43:18.960 +window manager is scary. + +00:43:22.500 --> 00:43:22.840 +And also games and some stuff wasn't working + +00:43:25.040 --> 00:43:25.240 +correctly, which it makes sense in some + +00:43:27.340 --> 00:43:27.840 +regards, using Emacs for window manager. + +00:43:30.660 --> 00:43:31.160 +Oh + +00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:34.980 +[Speaker 4]: I've used it before I found that it wasn't as + +00:43:39.240 --> 00:43:39.740 +like it. It's not as bad in practice because + +00:43:43.020 --> 00:43:43.260 +The paper cuts you don't like to hit them + +00:43:45.800 --> 00:43:46.000 +every day So you make sure So you make sure + +00:43:48.080 --> 00:43:48.400 +your Emacs config is a lot nicer and doesn't + +00:43:51.040 --> 00:43:51.300 +have those slowdowns. Or you avoid those + +00:43:54.440 --> 00:43:54.780 +things. It forces you to make your Emacs + +00:43:59.440 --> 00:43:59.940 +config a lot more robust to speed. + +00:44:02.040 --> 00:44:02.300 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah, yeah. That's true, + +00:44:04.200 --> 00:44:04.440 +yeah. The thing, yeah, + +00:44:05.600 --> 00:44:06.020 +but still, I don't know, + +00:44:08.680 --> 00:44:09.060 +[Speaker 4]: You'll still get the paper cuts, + +00:44:09.060 --> 00:44:09.560 +but... + +00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:12.660 +[Speaker 2]: like... Yeah, and my experience was not + +00:44:16.500 --> 00:44:16.880 +great. I'm not a person, + +00:44:17.860 --> 00:44:18.360 +like, I don't want to have... + +00:44:19.960 --> 00:44:20.460 +Not with LEM or Emacs. + +00:44:22.660 --> 00:44:23.160 +I like to have different programs. + +00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:26.120 +I don't want to like, I never was in like + +00:44:28.040 --> 00:44:28.540 +Emacs or you know, only Emacs. + +00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:30.800 +I really love Emacs, GNU Emacs, + +00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:34.140 +but only Emacs? No, no, + +00:44:35.300 --> 00:44:35.540 +I like my browser, I like my, + +00:44:37.500 --> 00:44:38.000 +you know, my Windows Manager, + +00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:41.780 +my, you know, I wasn't Emacs only. + +00:44:45.520 --> 00:44:46.000 +Emacs is my OS. Some people are, + +00:44:48.600 --> 00:44:49.100 +which is good. Different kind of a... + +00:44:51.600 --> 00:44:52.100 +I have to say that I come from Vim, + +00:44:57.340 --> 00:44:57.720 +like a long time ago. But I come from Vim, + +00:44:58.660 --> 00:44:58.980 +so I'm using Evil Mode. + +00:45:00.280 --> 00:45:00.780 +And I maybe have this kind of a... + +00:45:05.700 --> 00:45:06.200 +Yeah. So regarding Summoner.vm, + +00:45:10.080 --> 00:45:10.580 +it's... I like it because it's common Lisp, + +00:45:13.940 --> 00:45:14.440 +but it don't have some, + +00:45:18.120 --> 00:45:18.620 +this, I removed this. So I'm using another + +00:45:21.040 --> 00:45:21.340 +model line because the model line is not + +00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:24.720 +great. Everything else is a little bit weird + +00:45:28.940 --> 00:45:29.440 +because you have frames similar to Emacs. + +00:45:33.560 --> 00:45:34.060 +You have a frame. You have this window, + +00:45:35.600 --> 00:45:36.100 +and then there's no nothing here. + +00:45:37.700 --> 00:45:38.100 +[Speaker 4]: Yeah, I've used it before. + +00:45:39.720 --> 00:45:40.220 +That was definitely weird. + +00:45:41.680 --> 00:45:42.180 +It's also nice to be able to just... + +00:45:43.660 --> 00:45:44.160 +Can't you put multiple windows? + +00:45:46.100 --> 00:45:46.600 +Can't you duplicate windows? + +00:45:48.040 --> 00:45:48.540 +Show the same window in 2 frames? + +00:45:48.560 --> 00:45:49.060 +NIGEL + +00:45:51.020 --> 00:45:51.520 +[Speaker 2]: GANSZELA-WALSH Never tried that. + +00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:54.900 +Never occurred to me that. + +00:45:57.840 --> 00:45:58.020 +I don't know. Never tried that, + +00:46:01.480 --> 00:46:01.980 +to be honest. Let me check. + +00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:07.780 +No idea. Item? I think so. + +00:46:10.080 --> 00:46:10.320 +Because when you try to, + +00:46:11.520 --> 00:46:11.980 +at least not in an easy way. + +00:46:13.940 --> 00:46:14.260 +When you try to, so if I try to put a window + +00:46:16.020 --> 00:46:16.520 +here, let me move it so it, + +00:46:20.060 --> 00:46:20.540 +and if I try to like, so it's, + +00:46:21.680 --> 00:46:21.890 +yeah, no other window. + +00:46:24.100 --> 00:46:24.360 +[Speaker 4]: So can you open the, what is that, + +00:46:25.080 --> 00:46:25.440 +discord or your browser? + +00:46:26.840 --> 00:46:27.340 +Could you open that in both your frames? + +00:46:34.620 --> 00:46:35.120 +[Speaker 2]: I can I Side by side, but not the same + +00:46:37.740 --> 00:46:37.920 +[Speaker 0]: I mean I do I can I can have I know + +00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:38.600 +[Speaker 4]: can't your frames? 2 browsers you can do that + +00:46:42.600 --> 00:46:43.100 +[Speaker 2]: browser I never occurred to me that, + +00:46:46.300 --> 00:46:46.800 +[Speaker 4]: in DWM? You can't do that in XMLNet, + +00:46:48.560 --> 00:46:49.060 +at least I don't know what configuration + +00:46:50.820 --> 00:46:51.020 +you'd have to do to get to be able to do that + +00:46:51.140 --> 00:46:51.640 +in XMONAD. + +00:46:54.060 --> 00:46:54.560 +[Speaker 2]: wow. Interesting. Maybe you can. + +00:46:57.700 --> 00:46:58.200 +I never tried. Maybe you can? + +00:47:03.240 --> 00:47:03.640 +No idea. The interesting thing that I never + +00:47:05.860 --> 00:47:06.360 +use is that floating windows. + +00:47:09.520 --> 00:47:09.960 +Never use floating windows, + +00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:13.780 +but normal windows. You know, + +00:47:17.780 --> 00:47:18.160 +not. And SoundWM does have a weird support + +00:47:24.720 --> 00:47:25.220 +for it. Now it works. But I don't like it. + +00:47:26.680 --> 00:47:27.180 +For me, it was a little bit rough, + +00:47:29.480 --> 00:47:29.980 +the use of floating windows in SoundWM. + +00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:32.980 +I think they're way better now. + +00:47:36.580 --> 00:47:37.080 +I think, but yeah, I don't use it so... + +00:47:40.600 --> 00:47:41.100 +But there is. + +00:47:43.520 --> 00:47:43.940 +[Speaker 4]: You know, for me with the, + +00:47:45.060 --> 00:47:45.480 +like, Emacs doing everything, + +00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:47.380 +it's like, you got like Emacs, + +00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:50.740 +you got shell, and then you got the gooey + +00:47:56.520 --> 00:47:56.760 +Wild West. Yeah. Like, + +00:47:58.940 --> 00:47:59.440 +with Emacs, I know, I'll generally get, + +00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:01.780 +oh, this is going to be configured in? + +00:48:04.160 --> 00:48:04.660 +It's either gonna be shell script, + +00:48:06.180 --> 00:48:06.340 +Python or Emacs. Oh wait, + +00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:07.500 +no, it's gonna be Emacs. + +00:48:09.680 --> 00:48:10.180 +Variable's gonna be written in SecQ, + +00:48:10.380 --> 00:48:10.880 +period. + +00:48:16.640 --> 00:48:17.140 +[Speaker 2]: Well, I don't use too much scripting, + +00:48:18.260 --> 00:48:18.540 +but I'd like to, for example, + +00:48:21.540 --> 00:48:22.040 +I had to do a, so the automatic installer + +00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:26.500 +for, for Debian base, Debian stuff for Linux + +00:48:30.340 --> 00:48:30.840 +for, for LEM. I was thinking of doing in bash + +00:48:32.520 --> 00:48:33.020 +and I say, I don't want to do it in Bash. + +00:48:35.380 --> 00:48:35.880 +So I just did it in SVC and Commodisp, + +00:48:37.660 --> 00:48:38.100 +which does have like a scripting feature. + +00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:41.040 +You can put a script and it will create your + +00:48:41.160 --> 00:48:41.660 +own script. + +00:48:45.860 --> 00:48:46.280 +[Speaker 4]: 1 of the main people behind Next, + +00:48:50.760 --> 00:48:50.880 +he did a talk on using Common Lisp as a + +00:48:51.720 --> 00:48:52.220 +replacement for a shell. + +00:48:58.700 --> 00:48:59.200 +[Speaker 2]: Yes, it was... I know him. + +00:49:00.680 --> 00:49:01.180 +I know that he exists. + +00:49:04.600 --> 00:49:04.900 +Next, I think it's a main maintainer of Nix, + +00:49:09.140 --> 00:49:09.620 +[Speaker 4]: Yeah, although his website's kind of, + +00:49:10.380 --> 00:49:10.880 +I think he took it down. + +00:49:12.280 --> 00:49:12.780 +[Speaker 2]: Ambrevar. Yeah, I think he, + +00:49:14.480 --> 00:49:14.980 +yeah, he took it down. + +00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:17.680 +[Speaker 4]: So if you want to, you can look at it in Time + +00:49:17.680 --> 00:49:18.180 +Machine. + +00:49:23.940 --> 00:49:24.440 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah, I do have that article in my bookmarks, + +00:49:26.740 --> 00:49:27.240 +I think, somewhere. I remember reading that. + +00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:30.840 +So also, I would like to keep separated + +00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:33.380 +things in that way to have shell and then + +00:49:37.940 --> 00:49:38.440 +Emacs or LEM. Like for Emacs I use Viter. + +00:49:40.760 --> 00:49:41.260 +I don't like that it has different, + +00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:42.260 +you know. + +00:49:44.900 --> 00:49:45.060 +[Speaker 4]: On the same time though, + +00:49:46.960 --> 00:49:47.120 +I also don't like my terminal not to be able + +00:49:52.340 --> 00:49:52.600 +to click URLs and I like I like my terminal + +00:49:54.560 --> 00:49:55.060 +to have history and you know to scroll + +00:49:58.040 --> 00:49:58.200 +position copy paste You can do some of that + +00:50:00.020 --> 00:50:00.160 +stuff, but you know how that stuff go on the + +00:50:01.960 --> 00:50:02.080 +killer ring I kind of view it as like an + +00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:03.300 +alternative to shell. + +00:50:06.940 --> 00:50:07.080 +[Speaker 2]: Fair enough, but I think when some for my + +00:50:08.720 --> 00:50:09.220 +terminal, I only use it for navigate, + +00:50:11.280 --> 00:50:11.780 +remove stuff, so basic stuff. + +00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:14.640 +When I have to like, I don't know, + +00:50:17.640 --> 00:50:18.140 +edit something, just open the... + +00:50:22.120 --> 00:50:22.400 +[Speaker 4]: I like to use completion and narrowing to + +00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:24.720 +find my files. I kind of wish I could do that + +00:50:26.320 --> 00:50:26.600 +[Speaker 0]: on the shell or like if you use + +00:50:27.400 --> 00:50:27.640 +[Speaker 4]: more D-Menu to do that. + +00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:28.760 +That would be, I'm sure, + +00:50:28.760 --> 00:50:29.260 +nicer. + +00:50:38.140 --> 00:50:38.240 +[Speaker 2]: There's a lot of tools for terminals to do + +00:50:39.800 --> 00:50:39.880 +that, right? But you have to configure all of + +00:50:41.580 --> 00:50:41.780 +them. Beam users are very aware of those + +00:50:46.980 --> 00:50:47.300 +tools. You know, having very good fuzzy + +00:50:49.240 --> 00:50:49.440 +finding of files and then all by the + +00:50:53.680 --> 00:50:54.100 +terminal. I do have a friend who is a user of + +00:50:56.820 --> 00:50:57.320 +the Forbidden Editor, he's good, + +00:51:01.900 --> 00:51:02.400 +that does have a lot of small, + +00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:09.980 +like fuzzy finding, and so complete commands, + +00:51:12.240 --> 00:51:12.740 +and call those images in the terminal, + +00:51:14.300 --> 00:51:14.800 +all sorts of crazy stuff. + +00:51:16.120 --> 00:51:16.620 +That I think are not overkill, + +00:51:20.380 --> 00:51:20.560 +but I mean, if you want to use it, + +00:51:29.540 --> 00:51:30.040 +go ahead. So yeah. The thing is that, + +00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:32.860 +So trickling back a little bit to LEM, + +00:51:35.600 --> 00:51:35.860 +I think an interesting thought that I have + +00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:37.780 +about LEM and I can do Emacs. + +00:51:40.680 --> 00:51:41.180 +Not now, because LEM is a very small, + +00:51:43.740 --> 00:51:44.240 +like literally people, + +00:51:46.000 --> 00:51:46.500 +at least developers and users, + +00:51:50.280 --> 00:51:50.780 +I don't know, maybe 10 less. + +00:51:56.780 --> 00:51:57.280 +But people may think, split the community, + +00:51:58.740 --> 00:51:58.900 +right? That's the main thing that should come + +00:51:59.960 --> 00:52:00.460 +to my mind, split the community, + +00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:02.140 +maybe you, because that's true. + +00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:04.280 +I mean, I'm not developing that much in Nui + +00:52:06.260 --> 00:52:06.760 +MacLisp because I'm developing them. + +00:52:12.080 --> 00:52:12.580 +That's not that I'm a force that you might + +00:52:13.360 --> 00:52:13.860 +think exists or anything, + +00:52:17.220 --> 00:52:17.400 +but you know, you're splitting a very small + +00:52:21.600 --> 00:52:21.760 +community. Not that LEM wants to do that or + +00:52:24.160 --> 00:52:24.360 +anything, or will be able to in any way, + +00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:25.780 +but you know what I mean. + +00:52:32.360 --> 00:52:32.780 +I thought about that, And I think it's an + +00:52:40.600 --> 00:52:40.800 +interesting concern. But that concern also + +00:52:42.180 --> 00:52:42.680 +stops innovation in some way. + +00:52:46.960 --> 00:52:47.460 +[Speaker 4]: I think you can, if you look at the example + +00:52:50.200 --> 00:52:50.680 +of how many EMAX talks are related to + +00:52:54.760 --> 00:52:54.960 +knowledge management and not all and like for + +00:52:57.840 --> 00:52:58.100 +instance denote and Orgrim don't really work + +00:53:01.740 --> 00:53:01.880 +together all that well they split the + +00:53:03.740 --> 00:53:03.960 +community so to say I don't think they make + +00:53:04.720 --> 00:53:05.220 +it weaker at all, though. + +00:53:08.560 --> 00:53:08.800 +I think you were saying competition is good, + +00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:10.500 +but yeah, competition is good. + +00:53:12.100 --> 00:53:12.360 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah, I agree on that. + +00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:13.780 +I want to put it in the... + +00:53:15.400 --> 00:53:15.900 +But, you know, I'm doing the devil's advocate + +00:53:18.252 --> 00:53:18.271 +[Speaker 0]: something, that's... The developer gates in + +00:53:18.308 --> 00:53:18.327 +this regard. Like + +00:53:18.327 --> 00:53:18.346 +[Speaker 2]: in this regard. If someone wants to say if + +00:53:19.280 --> 00:53:19.780 +someone wants to like say something that + +00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:23.160 +maybe, you know, because some people still + +00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:30.940 +remember the Emacs versus X Emacs thing in + +00:53:34.860 --> 00:53:35.360 +the past, you know, that the split of the and + +00:53:38.100 --> 00:53:38.240 +That was good in some way but also bad in + +00:53:39.800 --> 00:53:39.960 +others like the compatibility was a little + +00:53:42.560 --> 00:53:43.040 +bit of a hell You know at the end Emacs + +00:53:46.160 --> 00:53:46.440 +failed, no Emacs But at that time it wasn't + +00:53:50.140 --> 00:53:50.500 +that clear and some people like it wasn't + +00:53:53.200 --> 00:53:53.360 +there. And I can understand that kind of a + +00:53:53.360 --> 00:53:53.860 +feeling. + +00:53:58.820 --> 00:53:59.040 +[Speaker 4]: Well sometimes the steps forward you end up + +00:54:02.640 --> 00:54:02.760 +going Like you're on a hill and you want to + +00:54:05.820 --> 00:54:06.000 +[Speaker 0]: the way the path to get up to + +00:54:06.440 --> 00:54:06.720 +[Speaker 4]: get to a higher hill, but that higher hill + +00:54:10.920 --> 00:54:11.280 +goes down and up. It doesn't mean that even + +00:54:12.240 --> 00:54:12.600 +if you know you're going down, + +00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:14.340 +it doesn't mean that it was a mistake. + +00:54:19.740 --> 00:54:20.020 +[Speaker 2]: Okay, fair enough. And also another + +00:54:22.120 --> 00:54:22.360 +interesting thing that I want to envision in + +00:54:25.520 --> 00:54:25.720 +the future, if I have time or someone wants + +00:54:28.400 --> 00:54:28.740 +to help me with, is I want them to have + +00:54:30.240 --> 00:54:30.740 +different language for extension, + +00:54:32.560 --> 00:54:33.060 +different Lisp for extension, + +00:54:36.340 --> 00:54:36.840 +not only common Lisp, but Scheme closure. + +00:54:39.680 --> 00:54:40.080 +And maybe not EmacLisp probably, + +00:54:46.500 --> 00:54:47.000 +[Speaker 4]: that what Guile Emacs is trying to do? + +00:54:47.860 --> 00:54:48.080 +[Speaker 2]: but yeah. And funny enough- Isn't Guile Emacs + +00:54:50.060 --> 00:54:50.560 +tried to add Guile support to, + +00:54:52.040 --> 00:54:52.540 +but Guile is not scheme. + +00:54:53.560 --> 00:54:53.800 +Well, it's kind of scheme, + +00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:54.940 +but it's not all schemes, + +00:54:58.580 --> 00:54:58.780 +which is, you know, and it was just to + +00:55:02.540 --> 00:55:03.040 +replace EmacLisp with Gile. + +00:55:06.940 --> 00:55:07.260 +You have 2 both. It was similar in that way, + +00:55:12.100 --> 00:55:12.340 +but the thing is, Common Lisp does have a lot + +00:55:12.900 --> 00:55:13.220 +of interesting things. + +00:55:16.120 --> 00:55:16.620 +So someone wrote a closure in Common Lisp. + +00:55:20.640 --> 00:55:21.140 +Which is called Cloture. + +00:55:29.720 --> 00:55:29.860 +Someone wrote, well it's on the way but it's + +00:55:35.440 --> 00:55:35.740 +getting there, a standard scheme in Common + +00:55:39.440 --> 00:55:39.940 +Lisp. So to add support to LEM, + +00:55:44.440 --> 00:55:44.940 +will be as easy as import package, + +00:55:46.360 --> 00:55:46.860 +and you have, And if that language, + +00:55:49.640 --> 00:55:50.060 +which usually does, supports very well + +00:55:51.740 --> 00:55:51.900 +interaction between the host language and the + +00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:53.420 +language that tries to provide, + +00:55:57.040 --> 00:55:57.180 +you will mostly automatically have new + +00:55:58.060 --> 00:55:58.560 +language for the editor. + +00:56:05.640 --> 00:56:06.100 +[Speaker 4]: I think the more interesting hanging fruit + +00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:09.780 +would be like using Next to scrape websites, + +00:56:12.500 --> 00:56:13.000 +download CSV bank statements, + +00:56:15.940 --> 00:56:16.440 +integrating with like password managers and + +00:56:27.880 --> 00:56:28.180 +or using... yeah you could still do with + +00:56:30.120 --> 00:56:30.620 +[Speaker 2]: But isn't that more like next thing oh yeah + +00:56:31.460 --> 00:56:31.580 +yeah I + +00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:32.520 +[Speaker 4]: common list though mean what's your your + +00:56:34.760 --> 00:56:35.260 +other options would be Selenium, + +00:56:41.200 --> 00:56:41.580 +JavaScript, Next already gives you the REPL + +00:56:47.940 --> 00:56:48.300 +for that. Or when you had that Ambryvar talk, + +00:56:50.060 --> 00:56:50.220 +when he, I don't know if you watched it, + +00:56:52.920 --> 00:56:53.420 +but when you use a shell and a command takes + +00:56:56.060 --> 00:56:56.200 +takes a while It just automatically takes you + +00:56:58.440 --> 00:56:58.580 +back into your shell and says I'll just let + +00:57:00.520 --> 00:57:00.800 +this run in the background or being able to + +00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:03.260 +more easily run commands in parallel. + +00:57:13.620 --> 00:57:13.880 +[Speaker 2]: But that's not like Nix stuff, + +00:57:18.740 --> 00:57:19.140 +[Speaker 4]: The Ambrivar, the shell 1, + +00:57:21.540 --> 00:57:21.900 +[Speaker 2]: right? Not like? When he did it, + +00:57:23.380 --> 00:57:23.580 +he. Because 1 + +00:57:25.340 --> 00:57:25.440 +[Speaker 4]: wasn't. of the things He did in that when he + +00:57:30.040 --> 00:57:30.160 +was using the repl in place of the shell is 1 + +00:57:31.240 --> 00:57:31.740 +of the things in there was if, + +00:57:33.720 --> 00:57:34.120 +let's say you were compiling a program, + +00:57:36.820 --> 00:57:37.040 +that takes a while. If it took longer than + +00:57:40.240 --> 00:57:40.440 +like 3 seconds or something along those + +00:57:42.560 --> 00:57:42.740 +lines, it would kick you back into the shell + +00:57:44.260 --> 00:57:44.660 +and say, oh, we're waiting for this program + +00:57:48.160 --> 00:57:48.380 +[Speaker 2]: Oh, interesting. And + +00:57:48.840 --> 00:57:49.340 +[Speaker 4]: to run, to finish. then you could, + +00:57:51.200 --> 00:57:51.600 +and then it had back reference support. + +00:57:55.260 --> 00:57:55.520 +So you could say, Oh, app search for this + +00:57:58.480 --> 00:57:58.820 +program. And then with the, + +00:58:00.780 --> 00:58:01.220 +with the shell, I, when I want to search, + +00:58:04.460 --> 00:58:04.640 +I'll then grep through that list to narrow it + +00:58:06.900 --> 00:58:07.180 +down even further, but I do a whole new + +00:58:08.400 --> 00:58:08.900 +search. It just says, oh, + +00:58:10.600 --> 00:58:11.100 +just grep through what I already searched. + +00:58:14.180 --> 00:58:14.680 +Just grep through the results of the command + +00:58:15.940 --> 00:58:16.440 +that's 3 commands ago. + +00:58:17.980 --> 00:58:18.180 +[Speaker 2]: Interesting. So it + +00:58:23.880 --> 00:58:24.380 +[Speaker 4]: runs instantly. Or look for my build errors + +00:58:25.840 --> 00:58:26.340 +in my compilation output, + +00:58:29.700 --> 00:58:30.060 +[Speaker 0]: rather than trying to build it again grepping + +00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:30.860 +for the errors. + +00:58:33.640 --> 00:58:34.120 +[Speaker 2]: I was checking, so where's that project? + +00:58:36.420 --> 00:58:36.920 +I was looking for it. You know, + +00:58:44.540 --> 00:58:45.040 +the... Yeah, I want to check the, + +00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:48.500 +[Speaker 4]: There was a talk. I also had a webpage. + +00:58:55.080 --> 00:58:55.580 +[Speaker 2]: you know... This red bull? + +00:58:58.260 --> 00:58:58.760 +No, this is not what I meant. + +00:59:34.174 --> 00:59:34.674 +[Speaker 0]: What is it? What is it? + +00:59:47.664 --> 00:59:48.164 +I cannot find the... I was trying to find + +00:59:54.180 --> 00:59:54.680 +[Speaker 2]: the repo for... It's C-L-E-S-H, + +00:59:59.640 --> 00:59:59.840 +like a unit shell for interface with for + +01:00:02.080 --> 01:00:02.580 +common Lisp? Is that the thing? + +01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:09.160 +[Speaker 0]: I don't know. I'm + +01:00:12.260 --> 01:00:12.760 +[Speaker 4]: trying to find the link to his old, + +01:00:16.560 --> 01:00:17.060 +no longer website. Website. + +01:00:21.500 --> 01:00:22.000 +[Speaker 2]: Skip. Technical issues. + +01:00:23.400 --> 01:00:23.900 +Maybe this 1. + +01:00:35.820 --> 01:00:36.320 +I cannot find it. + +01:00:37.800 --> 01:00:38.300 +[Speaker 4]: I got it. + +01:00:51.140 --> 01:00:51.640 +[Speaker 0]: Go to that link. Okay. + +01:01:02.020 --> 01:01:02.220 +[Speaker 4]: There's also a FOSDM target associated with + +01:01:02.380 --> 01:01:02.880 +it too. + +01:01:07.600 --> 01:01:08.100 +[Speaker 2]: Oh yeah, interesting. Clash and CH. + +01:01:13.520 --> 01:01:14.020 +CH. Oh, I was looking at the clesh. + +01:01:18.640 --> 01:01:19.140 +Clish, so the, let's check for it. + +01:01:23.560 --> 01:01:23.860 +The other 1 is shell and camel. + +01:01:24.120 --> 01:01:24.620 +This 1. + +01:01:37.505 --> 01:01:38.005 +[Speaker 0]: Interesting. Oops. Close Oops. + +01:01:40.900 --> 01:01:41.400 +[Speaker 2]: Oh, it's a GNU project. + +01:01:44.660 --> 01:01:45.160 +Oh, interesting. + +01:01:51.400 --> 01:01:51.680 +[Speaker 4]: The other thing that was interesting there is + +01:01:52.760 --> 01:01:53.260 +you use those disk images, + +01:02:00.140 --> 01:02:00.520 +LISP images, to have some of your common LISP + +01:02:05.920 --> 01:02:06.100 +utilities or programming libraries that you + +01:02:07.660 --> 01:02:08.040 +utilize in tandem with your REPL. + +01:02:13.700 --> 01:02:14.200 +So you can easily pull up a more featureful + +01:02:18.160 --> 01:02:18.400 +or a REPL that has more tools in it than by + +01:02:18.400 --> 01:02:18.900 +default. + +01:02:21.740 --> 01:02:22.240 +[Speaker 2]: Interesting. So yeah, that's, + +01:02:24.380 --> 01:02:24.880 +yeah, I mean, that will be, + +01:02:26.800 --> 01:02:27.100 +it will be fairly, no, + +01:02:28.700 --> 01:02:29.200 +no, easy. Well, easy, but not, + +01:02:33.080 --> 01:02:33.580 +But this can be integrated into LEM probably. + +01:02:36.060 --> 01:02:36.200 +Very, you know, not that easy because you + +01:02:38.520 --> 01:02:39.020 +have to change the few things. + +01:02:43.780 --> 01:02:44.280 +But this can be, you know. + +01:02:47.100 --> 01:02:47.600 +[Speaker 4]: Well, as example, he just... + +01:02:49.360 --> 01:02:49.860 +Well, 1 of the things that was in the talk, + +01:02:51.080 --> 01:02:51.300 +1 of the main ideas was, + +01:02:56.160 --> 01:02:56.380 +let's just, rather than trying to make the + +01:02:57.600 --> 01:02:58.040 +shell closer to a REPL, + +01:03:00.780 --> 01:03:01.280 +let's make a REPL closer to a shell, + +01:03:03.380 --> 01:03:03.760 +make it to where we can easily run Linux + +01:03:07.280 --> 01:03:07.420 +programs in it, and then use the rest of the + +01:03:10.120 --> 01:03:10.620 +REPL goodness, make it to where parentheses + +01:03:12.080 --> 01:03:12.580 +are easy to use, like paraedit, + +01:03:20.920 --> 01:03:21.420 +And then all of a sudden you have a nicer + +01:03:24.320 --> 01:03:24.640 +shell. Not really shell, + +01:03:24.640 --> 01:03:25.140 +but. + +01:03:30.020 --> 01:03:30.520 +[Speaker 2]: Oh, this is huge. + +01:03:33.520 --> 01:03:33.960 +[Speaker 6]: Hi, folks. Sorry for the interruption. + +01:03:35.200 --> 01:03:35.700 +It's Leo from the general track. + +01:03:39.380 --> 01:03:39.600 +We are about to go back live on the + +01:03:41.880 --> 01:03:42.040 +development track, so you can continue the + +01:03:43.080 --> 01:03:43.480 +discussion. You know, we are recording + +01:03:45.200 --> 01:03:45.360 +everything and you seem to be having a great + +01:03:47.520 --> 01:03:47.840 +amount of fun to issue the need for lunch, + +01:03:49.080 --> 01:03:49.580 +at least for the people in the US. + +01:03:51.160 --> 01:03:51.360 +I just want to let you know, + +01:03:53.680 --> 01:03:53.860 +in 2 minutes' time, we will be moving back to + +01:03:54.840 --> 01:03:55.340 +the rest of the talk for the afternoon, + +01:03:56.840 --> 01:03:57.040 +but feel free to stay in a room and keep + +01:03:57.760 --> 01:03:58.260 +discussing. All right? + +01:04:01.160 --> 01:04:01.660 +[Speaker 2]: Thank you. All right. + +01:04:03.640 --> 01:04:03.940 +[Speaker 6]: It might be a little brutal in 2 minutes, + +01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:08.240 +so if you have your watch synchronized at 7 + +01:04:09.080 --> 01:04:09.520 +sharps, so in 2 minutes, + +01:04:10.040 --> 01:04:10.540 +it'll cut off. + +01:04:19.600 --> 01:04:20.100 +[Speaker 2]: Okay. Bye-bye. Bye. Oh my. + +01:04:23.860 --> 01:04:24.360 +Yeah. Interesting stuff indeed. + +01:04:29.380 --> 01:04:29.540 +[Speaker 4]: to listen to it after you're done with the + +01:04:32.380 --> 01:04:32.540 +[Speaker 0]: I guess you have Have you + +01:04:33.480 --> 01:04:33.980 +[Speaker 4]: comp. ever listened to that talk before? + +01:04:38.320 --> 01:04:38.800 +The 1 that's in that webpage, + +01:04:39.380 --> 01:04:39.880 +the FOSDEM 1. + +01:04:40.840 --> 01:04:41.340 +[Speaker 2]: Which 1? Sorry? 0 yeah, + +01:04:44.480 --> 01:04:44.980 +I in fact saw him live in the FOSDEM 2020. + +01:04:50.053 --> 01:04:50.091 +[Speaker 0]: So I a little bit. 2020. + +01:04:50.166 --> 01:04:50.204 +So we him + +01:04:51.760 --> 01:04:51.980 +[Speaker 2]: talked with him a little bit The first time + +01:04:55.760 --> 01:04:56.260 +is here in well here in Europe here in + +01:05:01.320 --> 01:05:01.440 +Brussels like 3 hours away or 2 hours away in + +01:05:02.320 --> 01:05:02.820 +plane from where I am. + +01:05:05.320 --> 01:05:05.800 +[Speaker 0]: 1 of the things that's kind of interesting + +01:05:06.900 --> 01:05:07.040 +with, you have some of + +01:05:09.060 --> 01:05:09.160 +[Speaker 4]: the people who come from Europe to the US and + +01:05:11.820 --> 01:05:11.980 +they're like, oh, I want to visit all the + +01:05:13.780 --> 01:05:14.060 +corners of the US in a couple of days. + +01:05:17.920 --> 01:05:18.420 +And it's like, No, US is the size of Europe. + +01:05:19.740 --> 01:05:19.960 +[Speaker 0]: The + +01:05:21.160 --> 01:05:21.660 +[Speaker 4]: states are the size of their countries. + +01:05:23.140 --> 01:05:23.400 +You don't... + +01:05:27.100 --> 01:05:27.600 +[Speaker 2]: I know. I know. It's very... + +01:05:30.660 --> 01:05:31.080 +It's huge. And it's like 6 hours different + +01:05:32.280 --> 01:05:32.780 +from coast to coast, something like that. + +01:05:38.000 --> 01:05:38.240 +[Speaker 4]: Yeah, and that's driving as fast as you can + +01:05:39.960 --> 01:05:40.140 +on the freeway, on the best roads that you + +01:05:41.160 --> 01:05:41.660 +possibly can, not taking... + +01:05:45.700 --> 01:05:46.200 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah, that would be... + +01:05:53.400 --> 01:05:53.900 +So the thing that I try to do also with LEM + +01:05:57.880 --> 01:05:58.140 +is to move my workflow from LEM to Emax, + +01:06:01.620 --> 01:06:02.120 +so for Emax to LEM, use it more. + +01:06:07.080 --> 01:06:07.580 +And I hope to, we still have a long way to go + +01:06:08.440 --> 01:06:08.940 +in terms of usability, + +01:06:10.600 --> 01:06:11.100 +in terms of other things, + +01:06:12.640 --> 01:06:13.140 +because we need more power. + +01:06:18.420 --> 01:06:18.620 +So This is also my attempt to do some + +01:06:20.320 --> 01:06:20.820 +publicity to the Blend project itself, + +01:06:23.100 --> 01:06:23.600 +to need to add more users, + +01:06:26.200 --> 01:06:26.700 +to be willing to try and to fail trying, + +01:06:29.640 --> 01:06:30.140 +because we still have some rough edges. + +01:06:38.320 --> 01:06:38.820 +Yeah, just trying to do that, + +01:06:41.720 --> 01:06:42.220 +which is, and I apologize to the Emaclist + +01:06:43.580 --> 01:06:43.740 +community, which I'm part of, + +01:06:44.660 --> 01:06:45.140 +but I don't want to like, + +01:06:47.020 --> 01:06:47.520 +disencourage the use of getting Emacs anyway. + +01:06:48.960 --> 01:06:49.460 +I think both are awesome. + +01:06:51.300 --> 01:06:51.800 +I want to anyone to get a real impression. + +01:06:57.040 --> 01:06:57.100 +[Speaker 0]: What do + +01:06:57.740 --> 01:06:58.240 +[Speaker 2]: you think? PlasmaStrike, + +01:07:01.560 --> 01:07:02.060 +you have a very powerful name. + +01:07:07.580 --> 01:07:07.840 +[Speaker 4]: I don't think that's something to worry + +01:07:09.660 --> 01:07:10.160 +about. I don't personally, + +01:07:15.380 --> 01:07:15.760 +but I'm going to watch the EMMS talk. + +01:07:17.360 --> 01:07:17.560 +That's something that I don't really use too + +01:07:20.800 --> 01:07:21.220 +much on my Emacs config. + +01:07:22.600 --> 01:07:23.100 +So I'm going to let you go. + +01:07:24.440 --> 01:07:24.720 +[Speaker 2]: OK, yeah, I'm going to go. + +01:07:26.320 --> 01:07:26.760 +I'm going to maybe watch the garbage + +01:07:27.800 --> 01:07:28.300 +collector talk, which is interesting. + +01:07:32.540 --> 01:07:33.040 +So thank you all very much. + +01:07:35.860 --> 01:07:36.080 +I'm gonna go. Thanks for the questions and + +01:07:40.811 --> 01:07:41.288 +all that. I think I hope I answered correctly + +01:07:47.040 --> 01:07:47.540 +[Speaker 4]: is part of the value of being part of this is + +01:07:50.580 --> 01:07:50.740 +[Speaker 2]: all of them. Yeah, I figure this that's a way + +01:07:52.540 --> 01:07:53.040 +[Speaker 4]: conversations. So of saying thank you for + +01:07:54.480 --> 01:07:54.980 +people sharing interesting talks. + +01:07:57.780 --> 01:07:57.940 +[Speaker 2]: Indeed. Thank you all very much for going to + +01:08:02.380 --> 01:08:02.880 +the Emacs conf and to watch me. + +01:08:06.440 --> 01:08:06.940 +So thank you all very much. + +01:08:09.360 --> 01:08:09.860 +I'm going to go do that. + +01:08:10.640 --> 01:08:10.890 +[Speaker 0]: See you. diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-emms--emacs-multimedia-system-emms--yoni-rabkin--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-emms--emacs-multimedia-system-emms--yoni-rabkin--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..ad378f78 --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-emms--emacs-multimedia-system-emms--yoni-rabkin--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,1829 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:06.140 --> 00:00:06.640 +[Speaker 0]: And I think we are live. + +00:00:07.580 --> 00:00:08.080 +Hi, Yanny, how are you doing? + +00:00:10.460 --> 00:00:10.760 +[Speaker 1]: Excellent, excellent. Doing very well, + +00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:11.460 +thank you. + +00:00:13.980 --> 00:00:14.480 +[Speaker 0]: So that was a wonderful presentation. + +00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:17.940 +I first want to commend you on your ability + +00:00:22.040 --> 00:00:22.200 +to both do the how the user encounters the + +00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:25.460 +MMS, how the developer might be interested + +00:00:28.680 --> 00:00:28.920 +about how it works, and I feel like you've + +00:00:30.720 --> 00:00:31.200 +done a wonderful job of talking to absolutely + +00:00:31.800 --> 00:00:32.200 +everyone in our audience, + +00:00:32.840 --> 00:00:33.120 +whatever their skill level. + +00:00:34.120 --> 00:00:34.620 +So thank you so much for this. + +00:00:37.800 --> 00:00:38.300 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, that of course runs the risk of being, + +00:00:41.580 --> 00:00:41.940 +you know, good for some, + +00:00:42.980 --> 00:00:43.480 +but excellent for none. + +00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:47.280 +But hopefully the result is that people can + +00:00:48.380 --> 00:00:48.880 +get something out of it. + +00:00:51.820 --> 00:00:52.080 +I think it's very important to make sure that + +00:00:55.680 --> 00:00:55.900 +everyone feels that they have access to + +00:00:57.239 --> 00:00:57.739 +Emacs, they have access to EMMS, + +00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:01.140 +that they can do this in whatever capacity + +00:01:02.800 --> 00:01:03.300 +they want. It's for everyone. + +00:01:05.440 --> 00:01:05.940 +I really believe that. + +00:01:09.440 --> 00:01:09.720 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, and I understand this risk about having + +00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:11.180 +a talk that is kind of a jack-of-all-trades, + +00:01:14.440 --> 00:01:14.940 +but frankly you've done a wonderful job of + +00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:17.060 +making it interesting for everyone, + +00:01:19.540 --> 00:01:19.900 +because also I think the parts worked really + +00:01:21.820 --> 00:01:22.000 +well, and people always had something to look + +00:01:24.240 --> 00:01:24.479 +forward in terms of their expertise of what + +00:01:25.360 --> 00:01:25.680 +particularly spoke to them. + +00:01:27.560 --> 00:01:27.720 +So thank you again. What I'm going to do, + +00:01:29.440 --> 00:01:29.940 +we have about 14 minutes of Q&A, + +00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:31.080 +So I'll invite people, + +00:01:33.400 --> 00:01:33.520 +as I usually do, to add their questions in + +00:01:35.320 --> 00:01:35.760 +the other pad that you can find on the talks + +00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:38.760 +or on IRC. You can also join us in the + +00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:40.320 +discussion. I will make sure this time to + +00:01:42.180 --> 00:01:42.680 +ping Sasha to open the Q&A. + +00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:45.180 +Can you open, I-V-E-M-M-S. + +00:01:48.700 --> 00:01:49.200 +All right, and in the meantime, + +00:01:50.940 --> 00:01:51.040 +whilst we wait for people to join us in the + +00:01:52.360 --> 00:01:52.540 +room, I will start reading some of the + +00:01:53.960 --> 00:01:54.460 +questions off the pad. + +00:01:57.180 --> 00:01:57.520 +So we had the first question about the music + +00:01:58.780 --> 00:01:59.280 +that we played during the launch break, + +00:02:01.320 --> 00:02:01.560 +and It's 1 of our dear friends, + +00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:05.700 +Shoshin Ganshangroh, a free album, + +00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:09.720 +Basement Dazed. I've put the link in the pad + +00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:12.660 +and we've been using Shoshin's music for the + +00:02:13.420 --> 00:02:13.920 +last 3 years, I think, + +00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:15.560 +and everyone, people are so excited. + +00:02:17.220 --> 00:02:17.360 +Some people say, why is it so noisy in the + +00:02:18.480 --> 00:02:18.800 +background? But it's just because there's 1 + +00:02:20.940 --> 00:02:21.420 +part of the different tracks that sounds like + +00:02:24.280 --> 00:02:24.520 +static and it always gets people. + +00:02:25.900 --> 00:02:26.040 +We should probably do something about this, + +00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:28.020 +but frankly it makes me laugh every time. + +00:02:30.460 --> 00:02:30.920 +Starting with the first actual question, + +00:02:32.640 --> 00:02:33.140 +well actually it's a bit of a meme question, + +00:02:34.340 --> 00:02:34.640 +for the next Emacs Con, + +00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:37.440 +could we have an eMMS playlist to follow the + +00:02:37.760 --> 00:02:38.260 +talks along? + +00:02:43.940 --> 00:02:44.060 +[Speaker 1]: Oh that sounds like an excellent idea but I + +00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:46.720 +guess I'm wondering what they mean exactly by + +00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:49.280 +that. Is that a shareable playlist that we + +00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:54.720 +can pass along and just have people go to a + +00:02:56.320 --> 00:02:56.600 +URL and just be able to play that? + +00:02:58.620 --> 00:02:59.060 +I think that's an excellent idea. + +00:03:00.660 --> 00:03:01.160 +It should be a relatively low bandwidth + +00:03:01.780 --> 00:03:02.280 +process. + +00:03:06.580 --> 00:03:06.740 +[Speaker 0]: And it's typically the type of stuff that is + +00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:11.000 +right of our alley. I'm thinking about the + +00:03:15.480 --> 00:03:15.980 +ICS file that we produce for all the events + +00:03:17.020 --> 00:03:17.320 +that are related to Emacs. + +00:03:18.820 --> 00:03:19.240 +You know the workshop that happened in Paris + +00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:22.500 +or in New York, LA? Sasha compiles a list of + +00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:23.920 +all the events and when they happen, + +00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:25.760 +and then we provide this to everyone. + +00:03:27.040 --> 00:03:27.160 +And we can do very much the same with + +00:03:29.380 --> 00:03:29.580 +EmacsConf. You could have a playlist for + +00:03:31.980 --> 00:03:32.420 +EmacsConf 2023, where you get all the talks + +00:03:34.760 --> 00:03:34.900 +and perhaps also the Q&A sessions so that you + +00:03:36.780 --> 00:03:36.960 +can relieve the 16 hours of content that + +00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:38.200 +we're producing. That'd be great, + +00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:39.740 +that's a great idea I think. + +00:03:43.660 --> 00:03:44.160 +[Speaker 1]: Absolutely, and if there are any limitations + +00:03:48.060 --> 00:03:48.420 +in the Emacs playlist structure that things + +00:03:49.640 --> 00:03:50.140 +are missing in the playlist structure, + +00:03:53.040 --> 00:03:53.480 +then it would be a great impetus to implement + +00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:55.520 +those and extend the playlist structure. + +00:03:57.380 --> 00:03:57.860 +Because after all, it's Lisp, + +00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:01.620 +it really is data and functions all mixed + +00:04:03.160 --> 00:04:03.580 +together, so we can do that. + +00:04:06.180 --> 00:04:06.360 +It would be very interesting to dive into it + +00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:07.420 +and see what's missing. + +00:04:10.020 --> 00:04:10.240 +That would be even more informative than what + +00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:11.180 +it can do. + +00:04:14.900 --> 00:04:15.060 +[Speaker 0]: Great. All right, moving on to the next + +00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:17.480 +question. I like to use music and audiobooks + +00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:18.740 +in very different ways. + +00:04:21.440 --> 00:04:21.600 +With music, I like shuffling by artists and + +00:04:23.300 --> 00:04:23.800 +with audiobooks, I want to read sequentially + +00:04:27.260 --> 00:04:27.380 +and pick the same playlist over a couple of + +00:04:29.240 --> 00:04:29.540 +days or weeks. Do you have any tips for using + +00:04:30.860 --> 00:04:31.360 +these 2 opposing media's workflow? + +00:04:38.520 --> 00:04:38.940 +[Speaker 1]: Yes, so I have similar situations where I + +00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:44.420 +have very long endurance races that I watch, + +00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:47.440 +which I do all my media consumption is done + +00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:51.220 +via EMMS. I also listened to music. + +00:04:54.020 --> 00:04:54.520 +And so there's also a middle in between. + +00:04:57.980 --> 00:04:58.480 +There's 1 end in which you have popular + +00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:02.020 +music. These are standalone songs that are + +00:05:04.860 --> 00:05:05.080 +typically 3 to 4 minute long and they are + +00:05:07.900 --> 00:05:08.400 +best consumed in a random you know order + +00:05:09.780 --> 00:05:10.280 +because they are designed around, + +00:05:12.080 --> 00:05:12.580 +you know, a commercial radio distribution. + +00:05:15.140 --> 00:05:15.580 +I guess I'm dating myself by saying radio, + +00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:17.620 +but you know all the that. + +00:05:20.940 --> 00:05:21.440 +In the middle there are longer works like + +00:05:26.100 --> 00:05:26.600 +musicals and classical where these are units + +00:05:30.200 --> 00:05:30.360 +where they might be very long but you would + +00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:33.420 +have several tracks that you do want to have + +00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:35.800 +1 after the other, and you want to be able to + +00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:38.860 +stop and go to the next track. + +00:05:40.760 --> 00:05:41.260 +And then at the very, very other end, + +00:05:44.020 --> 00:05:44.520 +you have extremely long format, + +00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:46.860 +which is included in a single file, + +00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:48.420 +such as an audio book, + +00:05:51.400 --> 00:05:51.900 +a movie, a tutorial that you're watching, + +00:05:54.100 --> 00:05:54.320 +or in my case, you know, + +00:05:56.580 --> 00:05:57.040 +a 24 hour, the 24 hours of Le Mans, + +00:05:58.040 --> 00:05:58.440 +just the 24 hour race, + +00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:01.620 +which, you know, that's 1 heck of a file. + +00:06:07.380 --> 00:06:07.660 +So that is 1 of the reasons eMMS has a number + +00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:10.640 +of elements such as the meta playlist mode + +00:06:11.260 --> 00:06:11.760 +and multiple playlists. + +00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:16.480 +So I would say that they would open a number + +00:06:19.540 --> 00:06:19.680 +of playlists in eMMS, generate a number of + +00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:26.540 +playlists that have each class of media. + +00:06:28.940 --> 00:06:29.320 +So the shorter form songs, + +00:06:33.580 --> 00:06:34.080 +the more pop songs you have in 1 playlist + +00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:36.140 +where you can sort, shuffle it, + +00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:38.300 +you know, save it, do whatever you want. + +00:06:41.980 --> 00:06:42.360 +Then a separate playlist for the long form + +00:06:44.340 --> 00:06:44.840 +stuff. Sometimes that playlist will have even + +00:06:48.960 --> 00:06:49.460 +only 1 file in it if it's long enough, + +00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:52.300 +then have a key combination which takes you + +00:06:55.280 --> 00:06:55.780 +directly to 1 playlist or the other, + +00:06:57.340 --> 00:06:57.840 +and within the long-form playlist, + +00:07:01.980 --> 00:07:02.480 +looking at the bookmarking function of EMMS, + +00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:06.660 +which is designed around being able to save a + +00:07:10.080 --> 00:07:10.580 +particular stopping point or multiple + +00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:12.540 +stopping points, bookmarks in the audio, + +00:07:15.300 --> 00:07:15.800 +and being able to jump back into that audio. + +00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:19.100 +The point to remember about the bookmarking + +00:07:23.720 --> 00:07:24.220 +feature is that sometimes it really depends + +00:07:25.960 --> 00:07:26.460 +on you have to have the right back end. + +00:07:28.900 --> 00:07:29.400 +Not all back ends with replaying, + +00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:33.220 +not all types of media work well with a + +00:07:36.200 --> 00:07:36.660 +bookmarking function, and bug reports + +00:07:38.960 --> 00:07:39.460 +welcome. But also there are other backends + +00:07:44.820 --> 00:07:45.140 +such as MPV where you can configure it that + +00:07:49.860 --> 00:07:50.360 +when you quit playing the song or the media + +00:07:55.080 --> 00:07:55.580 +with, you know, cue internally. + +00:07:58.140 --> 00:07:58.640 +So sometimes the back end has to continue + +00:08:04.400 --> 00:08:04.700 +playing that song. That's what I do in order + +00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:08.060 +to, on 1 hand, switch over to a... + +00:08:09.620 --> 00:08:10.000 +I want to hear... I'm coding, + +00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:11.240 +I want to hear some music, + +00:08:12.860 --> 00:08:13.360 +I go to my playlist of short songs, + +00:08:16.280 --> 00:08:16.560 +then I'm sitting back and I want to watch a + +00:08:20.340 --> 00:08:20.540 +long form something from where I left off and + +00:08:22.420 --> 00:08:22.740 +there I go to the other playlist and use + +00:08:26.140 --> 00:08:26.380 +bookmarks or the features of the back end + +00:08:26.780 --> 00:08:27.280 +that I'm using. + +00:08:31.200 --> 00:08:31.700 +[Speaker 0]: Okay, thank you for the answer. + +00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:34.679 +We have about 7 minutes and we have more + +00:08:35.280 --> 00:08:35.780 +questions, so that's great. + +00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:37.940 +Moving on to the next 1. + +00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:40.240 +Is there a way to search a music selection by + +00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:42.240 +lyrics? Assuming those lyrics are in the + +00:08:43.580 --> 00:08:44.080 +metadata or are available elsewhere, + +00:08:46.300 --> 00:08:46.400 +it would be neat to call songs up from the + +00:08:48.660 --> 00:08:49.160 +lyrics to the song. Perhaps is this + +00:08:50.860 --> 00:08:51.360 +implemented so that you can all aliases, + +00:08:54.560 --> 00:08:54.720 +so they can use aliases for the song that you + +00:08:56.640 --> 00:08:57.100 +like, defining those aliases or shortcuts + +00:08:58.200 --> 00:08:58.680 +either inside or outside eMMS? + +00:08:59.760 --> 00:09:00.060 +Okay, so I think you've got 2 questions. + +00:09:01.500 --> 00:09:02.000 +First about the lyrics and then the aliases. + +00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:08.560 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so it's effectively not possible to do + +00:09:10.880 --> 00:09:11.120 +right now. There's a sense in which it is, + +00:09:14.820 --> 00:09:15.020 +but not really. What actually needs to + +00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:19.320 +happen? The problem is that the caching + +00:09:21.780 --> 00:09:22.280 +system is extremely naive. + +00:09:24.800 --> 00:09:24.960 +It's just really a hash that's written to + +00:09:30.560 --> 00:09:31.060 +disk. And maybe now with SQLite integration + +00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:35.380 +or other or just the fact that computers have + +00:09:39.220 --> 00:09:39.440 +a lot more speed and space than they used to + +00:09:43.340 --> 00:09:43.580 +have, we need to expand the cache to be a lot + +00:09:47.020 --> 00:09:47.520 +more greedy and a lot more flexible so that + +00:09:52.580 --> 00:09:52.860 +we can store things such as lyrics in as part + +00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:56.200 +of the metadata. There's no reason not to do + +00:10:02.220 --> 00:10:02.440 +that. Unless your collection would have to be + +00:10:06.560 --> 00:10:07.060 +truly enormous in order to slow things down. + +00:10:09.860 --> 00:10:10.200 +We wouldn't even need to compress the lyrics + +00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:11.820 +in order to store them like that. + +00:10:15.920 --> 00:10:16.120 +But that is a goal. So our rewrite of the + +00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:18.340 +cache is currently in progress, + +00:10:21.680 --> 00:10:21.940 +and the goal is to have a system where you + +00:10:24.920 --> 00:10:25.420 +can put any related information, + +00:10:30.060 --> 00:10:30.220 +including lyrics, and map that to a + +00:10:31.400 --> 00:10:31.900 +particular piece of the media, + +00:10:36.900 --> 00:10:37.060 +be it a URL or a... So you could have in a + +00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:40.240 +sense, you could have a URL to a lecture and + +00:10:44.440 --> 00:10:44.800 +the metadata associated would be some text, + +00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:48.100 +some notes or something else like that. + +00:10:51.140 --> 00:10:51.380 +[Speaker 0]: Right, so that was about the lyrics. + +00:10:53.040 --> 00:10:53.260 +I'm not sure how it answers the question + +00:10:54.560 --> 00:10:54.960 +about the aliases. I mean you can still + +00:10:56.380 --> 00:10:56.880 +filter what you've mentioned about the cache. + +00:10:59.240 --> 00:10:59.440 +I think it's... Do we consider the aliases to + +00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:01.620 +be anything within the metadata? + +00:11:08.040 --> 00:11:08.540 +[Speaker 1]: No, you're right. That is a separate + +00:11:12.380 --> 00:11:12.540 +question. I don't have a great answer for + +00:11:12.980 --> 00:11:13.480 +that right now. + +00:11:16.280 --> 00:11:16.500 +[Speaker 0]: Okay, great. Well, we'll put a pin on this + +00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:17.940 +and we can return to it. + +00:11:19.690 --> 00:11:19.840 +You can return to it at a later stage. + +00:11:21.880 --> 00:11:22.080 +Yeah. All right, moving on to the next + +00:11:22.800 --> 00:11:23.160 +question, then. I'll just, + +00:11:25.180 --> 00:11:25.680 +we'll put a pin on this. + +00:11:26.420 --> 00:11:26.920 +All right, next question. + +00:11:29.020 --> 00:11:29.220 +Are there plans for managing metadata with + +00:11:30.040 --> 00:11:30.540 +online resource backends, + +00:11:32.020 --> 00:11:32.440 +i.e. Discogs or music brains? + +00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:34.540 +What about something like Beats and Emacs or + +00:11:34.920 --> 00:11:35.420 +part of the EMMS? + +00:11:40.520 --> 00:11:40.640 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so that's an active discussion on the + +00:11:42.140 --> 00:11:42.640 +mailing list right now. + +00:11:47.340 --> 00:11:47.840 +We don't want to replicate what Beats does + +00:11:49.680 --> 00:11:50.180 +very, very well in eMMS. + +00:11:53.860 --> 00:11:54.360 +We don't want a clunky interface with Beats. + +00:11:57.440 --> 00:11:57.940 +We do want some kind of, + +00:12:00.100 --> 00:12:00.300 +and so it's hard to tell exactly where to + +00:12:03.160 --> 00:12:03.460 +draw that line. So the big answer is yes, + +00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:05.460 +absolutely, there is a plan to do that. + +00:12:09.760 --> 00:12:10.000 +The details become complicated because for 1 + +00:12:15.900 --> 00:12:16.200 +thing, the backend, the database that + +00:12:18.140 --> 00:12:18.640 +MusicBrain uses, AcoustID, + +00:12:21.500 --> 00:12:21.820 +I don't remember if AcoustID is the binary or + +00:12:25.680 --> 00:12:25.960 +the database, but that's actually for + +00:12:27.500 --> 00:12:28.000 +non-commercial use only. + +00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:31.500 +So not only do you need to compile a piece of + +00:12:35.280 --> 00:12:35.760 +software on your computer as a shim, + +00:12:37.540 --> 00:12:37.680 +which is what you need to do in order to set + +00:12:39.180 --> 00:12:39.680 +up beats to do fingerprinting. + +00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:45.220 +But it also crosses this line between + +00:12:47.660 --> 00:12:47.900 +completely free software to completely free + +00:12:49.400 --> 00:12:49.900 +software interfacing with a non-commercial + +00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:56.420 +only service. So a lot of the discussion + +00:12:58.660 --> 00:12:59.160 +that's going on now is what is the contour? + +00:13:02.160 --> 00:13:02.660 +Where would be where we would be effective + +00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:09.220 +for EMMS to do management and where not? + +00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:12.100 +For 1 thing, I would love to be able to... + +00:13:13.980 --> 00:13:14.100 +1 thing that we definitely would love to be + +00:13:18.340 --> 00:13:18.540 +able to do is when you hit E on a file and + +00:13:21.540 --> 00:13:22.040 +you get all the metadata to be able to then + +00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:23.200 +give a command to say, + +00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:25.520 +hey, play to music brains and see if you can + +00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:26.700 +improve that metadata. + +00:13:29.020 --> 00:13:29.520 +Do you have better metadata, + +00:13:33.400 --> 00:13:33.680 +more complete metadata to complete that? + +00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:36.340 +That is definitely in the pipeline. + +00:13:40.900 --> 00:13:41.400 +How best to do it, that's a discussion. + +00:13:45.460 --> 00:13:45.840 +[Speaker 0]: Okay, Yoni, we have about 2 minutes until we + +00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:47.460 +need to go to the next talk. + +00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:53.080 +Okay, I'll risk it. 1 more question and a + +00:13:53.800 --> 00:13:54.300 +short answer if you can. + +00:13:57.440 --> 00:13:57.860 +Have the developers considered using Emacs + +00:13:59.060 --> 00:13:59.560 +customized functionality to persistently + +00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:02.120 +store settings when using eMMS setup discover + +00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:02.620 +players? + +00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:08.460 +[Speaker 1]: Yes, absolutely. That's another active place, + +00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:12.340 +especially with the discover players. + +00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:14.940 +How to do it exactly without annoying people + +00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:18.340 +and clobbering their own settings, + +00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:20.680 +we just need to be very careful about that. + +00:14:23.040 --> 00:14:23.540 +Yes, that's in the coming releases. + +00:14:26.520 --> 00:14:26.940 +[Speaker 0]: All right, well, Younif, + +00:14:27.900 --> 00:14:28.400 +thank you so much for your time. + +00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:29.640 +Feel free to stay in the room. + +00:14:30.920 --> 00:14:31.240 +I see that some people have started joining + +00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:34.220 +on BBB. If you have more questions, + +00:14:36.780 --> 00:14:37.020 +feel free to unmute yourself and ask them + +00:14:39.520 --> 00:14:39.900 +live. Younid, I could ask you also to perhaps + +00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:41.760 +answer the question. I've put the link to the + +00:14:43.980 --> 00:14:44.480 +pad in the BBB chat, so if you look at the... + +00:14:47.220 --> 00:14:47.640 +Here, I think, we're not mirrored on BBB. + +00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:49.280 +If you look at the left you should be able to + +00:14:51.500 --> 00:14:51.580 +see the chat and the questions and if you + +00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:52.840 +could just answer the last question that + +00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:55.640 +would be great. For us on the general track + +00:14:57.980 --> 00:14:58.180 +we will be moving to the next talk and + +00:14:59.700 --> 00:14:59.820 +Yannick do you have any last thing to say in + +00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:02.900 +[Speaker 1]: Thank everyone who put together the + +00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:04.820 +conference and thank you to everyone who + +00:15:06.680 --> 00:15:07.180 +helps with the EMMS. + +00:15:08.160 --> 00:15:08.440 +[Speaker 0]: 10 seconds? All right, + +00:15:09.160 --> 00:15:09.440 +well, thank you so much, + +00:15:10.940 --> 00:15:11.440 +Yoni. We'll probably see you later. + +00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:17.860 +Bye-bye. Wonderful. And I think we are off + +00:15:18.620 --> 00:15:18.760 +air. Thank you so much, + +00:15:20.800 --> 00:15:20.920 +Juni. I need to step out and go take care of + +00:15:23.260 --> 00:15:23.760 +[Speaker 1]: Okay, wonderful. Thank you very much. + +00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:24.520 +[Speaker 0]: the next talk. Bye-bye. + +00:15:25.520 --> 00:15:25.760 +And just to, I forgot to mention, + +00:15:27.160 --> 00:15:27.260 +but you can still talk here and everything is + +00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:28.620 +still being recorded. So, + +00:15:28.880 --> 00:15:28.940 +I'll see you later. + +00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:32.820 +[Speaker 2]: Excellent. Bye-bye. Bye. + +00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:36.100 +[Speaker 3]: Oh, hello. + +00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:41.100 +[Speaker 1]: Wait, you're still, I cannot hear you yet. + +00:15:42.900 --> 00:15:43.080 +[Speaker 4]: You are currently the only person in this + +00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:43.580 +conference. + +00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:12.780 +[Speaker 2]: Okay. + +00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:18.400 +[Speaker 3]: Can you hear me now? I just wanted to say hi + +00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:20.320 +and thank you. My name's Grant. + +00:16:23.740 --> 00:16:24.220 +I've, you helped me contribute to EMMS maybe + +00:16:26.820 --> 00:16:26.980 +2 or 3 years ago. I was trying to do the + +00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:28.980 +[Speaker 2]: So, + +00:16:29.340 --> 00:16:29.840 +[Speaker 3]: track tag stuff. yeah. + +00:16:32.148 --> 00:16:32.571 +So I just wanted to say thank you. + +00:16:35.400 --> 00:16:35.680 +[Speaker 1]: Thank you for continuing and going through + +00:16:38.560 --> 00:16:38.680 +that entire process. I know that 1 of the + +00:16:40.380 --> 00:16:40.520 +things that happens is that people want to + +00:16:43.940 --> 00:16:44.440 +contribute, but it's not as slick as GitHub + +00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:46.580 +and stuff like that, especially with the + +00:16:53.400 --> 00:16:53.900 +copper assignment. And objectively, + +00:16:56.920 --> 00:16:57.420 +it's not that. It's just harder than what + +00:16:58.680 --> 00:16:59.180 +they imagine it might be. + +00:17:01.500 --> 00:17:01.680 +[Speaker 3]: Yeah. Well, I appreciate it. + +00:17:03.340 --> 00:17:03.440 +I think you're doing a wonderful job as a + +00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:07.660 +maintainer. I still hang out on the list and + +00:17:09.380 --> 00:17:09.880 +enjoy listening in on the discussions. + +00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:10.460 +So. + +00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:14.626 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah. But that's it. I think that's it. + +00:17:16.700 --> 00:17:17.200 +I think that's it. And I think that's it. + +00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:17.890 +And I think that's it. + +00:17:23.339 --> 00:17:23.660 +I appreciate it. And I'll leave you to all of + +00:17:27.781 --> 00:17:27.811 +you to go on from being a product. + +00:17:28.088 --> 00:17:28.118 +And that she valued to all of us long term + +00:17:28.180 --> 00:17:28.680 +being a project. + +00:17:31.460 --> 00:17:31.960 +[Speaker 1]: If you're not super duper active, + +00:17:33.420 --> 00:17:33.720 +being there long term, + +00:17:37.360 --> 00:17:37.860 +people tend to find it easier trying to + +00:17:40.840 --> 00:17:41.060 +continue contributing to the project if + +00:17:42.360 --> 00:17:42.620 +there's a consistency there, + +00:17:43.520 --> 00:17:44.020 +if there isn't a churn, + +00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:48.160 +if there is a kind of a core group. + +00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:52.940 +I guess it's like, you think it's constant. + +00:17:58.280 --> 00:17:58.780 +Eliezer Etzke and RMS, + +00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:00.920 +whatever on the next mailing list, + +00:18:03.040 --> 00:18:03.540 +You know, okay, there are certain people that + +00:18:05.600 --> 00:18:05.800 +I think so. So thank you for that. + +00:18:06.340 --> 00:18:06.840 +That's very important. + +00:18:07.540 --> 00:18:08.040 +That helps. + +00:18:12.560 --> 00:18:12.940 +[Speaker 3]: Yeah, I'm, I feel like when I started using + +00:18:14.180 --> 00:18:14.540 +EMMS several years ago, + +00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:16.820 +it's, it's improved a lot since then. + +00:18:19.540 --> 00:18:20.040 +And I notice your focus on helping new users + +00:18:22.540 --> 00:18:22.800 +get started quickly. And I think the talk + +00:18:23.840 --> 00:18:24.160 +today will help with that too. + +00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:24.660 +So + +00:18:32.380 --> 00:18:32.700 +[Speaker 1]: yeah, I want to put you know, + +00:18:33.860 --> 00:18:34.360 +the, especially the TLDR, + +00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:37.640 +like how to start it on the link that to the + +00:18:44.080 --> 00:18:44.380 +website, find somehow that we can get on to + +00:18:52.900 --> 00:18:53.400 +prepare for that. And this together. + +00:18:54.700 --> 00:18:55.200 +Now, question for you, + +00:18:58.260 --> 00:18:58.620 +Where would you like to see EMMS go? + +00:18:59.440 --> 00:18:59.820 +Where do you see it landing? + +00:19:02.780 --> 00:19:02.900 +What do you feel like this is what this is + +00:19:04.540 --> 00:19:05.040 +we're sorely missing these things? + +00:19:09.740 --> 00:19:10.240 +[Speaker 3]: I don't know. I mean, I picked it up, + +00:19:13.540 --> 00:19:13.940 +because I both use it to play my music + +00:19:17.100 --> 00:19:17.320 +collection, but also, like I record my own + +00:19:20.140 --> 00:19:20.320 +music. And I wanted to be able to edit my + +00:19:23.500 --> 00:19:24.000 +metadata in Emacs, because editing metadata + +00:19:29.100 --> 00:19:29.220 +elsewhere sucks. And so that's kind of why I + +00:19:30.280 --> 00:19:30.560 +got involved with that. + +00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:33.940 +And I was like, being able to edit metadata, + +00:19:37.580 --> 00:19:37.900 +especially for content that maybe you're + +00:19:41.760 --> 00:19:42.180 +creating or because I have a bunch of files + +00:19:44.340 --> 00:19:44.700 +of just unlabeled stuff I've recorded on, + +00:19:45.340 --> 00:19:45.780 +you know, different quarters, + +00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:47.520 +things like that. So that's kind of where I + +00:19:50.320 --> 00:19:50.740 +was focusing on it. It's the only media tool + +00:19:52.540 --> 00:19:52.720 +that lets me do that, you know, + +00:19:54.520 --> 00:19:54.940 +I can play the music back and have quick + +00:19:58.260 --> 00:19:58.380 +editing. So I know there was a couple of + +00:20:00.860 --> 00:20:01.120 +things we had talked about in terms of maybe + +00:20:03.260 --> 00:20:03.480 +improving kind of the user interface for the + +00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:05.940 +tag editor, things like that. + +00:20:09.300 --> 00:20:09.600 +So I don't have any grand visions for where + +00:20:15.660 --> 00:20:15.800 +EMMS should go. I know pretty much all the + +00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:17.420 +things I've heard about it already. + +00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:20.700 +You can hook up to GNU FM, + +00:20:21.940 --> 00:20:22.440 +the Scrabbling Service, + +00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:23.700 +and all that kind of stuff. + +00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:27.180 +I don't really feel like it's missing much, + +00:20:29.020 --> 00:20:29.280 +especially being able to choose the back + +00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:32.320 +ends. I guess, if anything, + +00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:35.220 +it's the interface. How can it be even more + +00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:38.660 +intuitive for users? And I think that, + +00:20:41.500 --> 00:20:41.820 +you know, we need more people playing around + +00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:43.880 +with it, I guess. Yeah. + +00:20:46.220 --> 00:20:46.420 +[Speaker 2]: I think a really good + +00:20:47.520 --> 00:20:47.800 +[Speaker 1]: Well, yeah. example of that is, + +00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:49.600 +because I'm sure there are lots of people + +00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:50.740 +playing around with it, + +00:20:51.460 --> 00:20:51.960 +arriving at a conclusion, + +00:20:53.860 --> 00:20:54.360 +keeping it to themselves and moving on. + +00:20:59.160 --> 00:20:59.300 +Yeah. Which, and I know that a lot of bits of + +00:21:01.820 --> 00:21:02.160 +software put a send a bug report feature in + +00:21:04.660 --> 00:21:05.020 +and stuff like that and no 1 uses those + +00:21:07.600 --> 00:21:08.000 +either. So that's the frictional cost. + +00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:10.940 +I think the context switch for people between + +00:21:16.120 --> 00:21:16.360 +this doesn't work to actually formulating in + +00:21:17.840 --> 00:21:18.340 +words what didn't work, + +00:21:21.380 --> 00:21:21.600 +that is a very expensive context which most + +00:21:24.800 --> 00:21:24.980 +people will not do. And we're poorer for + +00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:32.660 +that. So, I think that when we integrate + +00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:35.240 +music brains and other things like that into. + +00:21:37.460 --> 00:21:37.960 +Now, of course, music brains will probably, + +00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:41.380 +it would be very funny if you pull up your + +00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:43.660 +stuff, right? Something that you wrote and + +00:21:46.080 --> 00:21:46.280 +you say, hey, music brains match this and + +00:21:48.600 --> 00:21:49.000 +it's not there, then it'll probably suggest + +00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:52.220 +[Speaker 3]: Yeah, I've heard that. + +00:21:52.660 --> 00:21:52.940 +[Speaker 1]: some wild things. Yeah, + +00:21:58.260 --> 00:21:58.400 +because there are, there was a system I was + +00:22:02.060 --> 00:22:02.220 +looking at its code for researching stuff for + +00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:04.700 +EMS And I'm trying to remember what it's + +00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:06.040 +named. It begins with a J, + +00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:07.660 +it's this media player, + +00:22:13.780 --> 00:22:13.940 +free floss media player that it's like a + +00:22:17.020 --> 00:22:17.520 +media server that can cast to a television + +00:22:20.940 --> 00:22:21.220 +and stuff like that. And I asked it to + +00:22:24.280 --> 00:22:24.780 +automatically label things and the results + +00:22:28.180 --> 00:22:28.380 +were horrible. It thought that half of my + +00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:33.400 +songs were movies. It thought that JPEGs were + +00:22:35.800 --> 00:22:36.220 +songs. It just, it did some, + +00:22:40.520 --> 00:22:41.020 +it did incredibly, it's not a solved problem, + +00:22:44.660 --> 00:22:45.160 +I think. So the, what I'm thinking with + +00:22:49.340 --> 00:22:49.540 +MusicBrainz and those services is that you + +00:22:51.840 --> 00:22:52.240 +hit a button and you have you get another + +00:22:57.040 --> 00:22:57.240 +pane with a suggestion and you either and you + +00:22:59.060 --> 00:22:59.240 +can copy through you can say okay copy this + +00:23:01.560 --> 00:23:01.760 +and this in this field over or reject the + +00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:04.460 +suggestion and maybe get another 1. + +00:23:04.940 --> 00:23:05.280 +So, + +00:23:07.360 --> 00:23:07.660 +[Speaker 3]: Yeah, I like that a lot. + +00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:09.480 +That's more like a diff, + +00:23:11.280 --> 00:23:11.640 +right? Like you get the diff between the 2 + +00:23:13.540 --> 00:23:14.040 +and you can apply which changes you like. + +00:23:15.580 --> 00:23:16.080 +Yeah. Was it Jellyfin? + +00:23:18.220 --> 00:23:18.720 +Is that... Jellyfin? Yeah, + +00:23:19.460 --> 00:23:19.960 +[Speaker 1]: Jellyfin, yes. + +00:23:22.340 --> 00:23:22.840 +[Speaker 3]: Yeah, And when that happened, + +00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:25.460 +did it clobber all your metadata? + +00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:27.940 +Or does it just label stuff? + +00:23:28.860 --> 00:23:29.360 +[Speaker 2]: No, it... + +00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:38.740 +[Speaker 1]: Escalate things somewhere inside it and to + +00:23:49.020 --> 00:23:49.340 +looking for really, not allow me to do very + +00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:55.080 +easily. So I was, so, you know, + +00:23:56.660 --> 00:23:56.960 +on 1 hand, it makes me feel, + +00:23:58.980 --> 00:23:59.120 +oh, we're not the only ones dealing with + +00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:00.840 +this. We're not the only ones struggling with + +00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:01.800 +this. On the other hand, + +00:24:05.660 --> 00:24:05.820 +it would be nice if that's a paragon that we + +00:24:08.460 --> 00:24:08.680 +can look to and say, this is a wonderful way + +00:24:11.320 --> 00:24:11.540 +of doing it. Let's incorporate as much of + +00:24:15.180 --> 00:24:15.520 +[Speaker 3]: Yeah, it's a tricky problem, + +00:24:18.220 --> 00:24:18.620 +especially if you're modifying people's media + +00:24:19.780 --> 00:24:20.280 +files you know so + +00:24:23.040 --> 00:24:23.420 +[Speaker 1]: that as we can. yeah I'm also very convinced + +00:24:31.560 --> 00:24:32.060 +that so I'm not a mainframe for MMS because + +00:24:35.020 --> 00:24:35.520 +I'm old and curmudgeonly essentially in my, + +00:24:37.660 --> 00:24:37.900 +in the way they do it. + +00:24:40.080 --> 00:24:40.520 +And honestly, I rarely ever, + +00:24:42.780 --> 00:24:43.180 +I use the MMS browser when I need to debug + +00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:44.660 +the MS browser. I don't, + +00:24:48.740 --> 00:24:49.240 +I use very simple commands and I even rarely + +00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:50.940 +look at the playlists. + +00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:54.220 +That was 1 of the things because when I got + +00:24:56.680 --> 00:24:57.100 +into MMS originally when my eyesight started + +00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:00.140 +going so I had to rely less and less on GUI + +00:25:02.800 --> 00:25:03.300 +interfaces. So that was, + +00:25:06.340 --> 00:25:06.840 +so to this day that's how I use EMMS. + +00:25:08.560 --> 00:25:09.060 +[Speaker 3]: Yeah, it's interesting. + +00:25:13.260 --> 00:25:13.760 +I remember running into a browser bug because + +00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:15.980 +I think just my age, like, + +00:25:18.120 --> 00:25:18.340 +I want to be able to tab through and like + +00:25:20.060 --> 00:25:20.560 +that was a huge that that changed recently + +00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:22.800 +right where you tab and it unfolds in the + +00:25:27.620 --> 00:25:27.980 +browser but yeah I realized that people use + +00:25:30.600 --> 00:25:31.100 +emms in so many different ways just like any + +00:25:36.020 --> 00:25:36.220 +piece of emacs there's there's many ways to + +00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:40.440 +do it but appreciate your time I'm gonna + +00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:42.260 +actually put together this Christmas tree + +00:25:43.400 --> 00:25:43.900 +[Speaker 0]: So. Wonderful. + +00:25:45.260 --> 00:25:45.660 +[Speaker 3]: behind me. Yeah, just wanted to say hi, + +00:25:50.900 --> 00:25:51.400 +meet you in person. But yeah. + +00:25:54.340 --> 00:25:54.840 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, excellent. I appreciate it a lot and we + +00:25:55.080 --> 00:25:55.580 +generate + +00:25:59.960 --> 00:26:00.260 +[Speaker 2]: some interesting questions. + +00:26:00.780 --> 00:26:01.280 +Yeah, thank you. + +00:26:03.760 --> 00:26:03.960 +[Speaker 4]: You are currently the only person in this + +00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:04.460 +conference. + +00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:13.980 +[Speaker 1]: I'm going to have a look at the questions + +00:26:14.060 --> 00:26:14.560 +here. + +00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:29.940 +Let's see. Let's see. So there is, + +00:26:32.900 --> 00:26:33.260 +okay. There's a question here. + +00:26:34.540 --> 00:26:34.680 +I like what you said about balancing the + +00:26:36.140 --> 00:26:36.380 +concern for software freedom with the worry + +00:26:38.360 --> 00:26:38.560 +that this might alienate the package user. + +00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:40.120 +I wonder if you have advice for other + +00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:41.820 +maintainers how to communicate this sort of + +00:26:43.660 --> 00:26:44.120 +thing diplomatically? Yes, + +00:26:45.660 --> 00:26:46.160 +when you have to deny implementing a feature + +00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:48.980 +for a freedom reason. This in fact happens + +00:26:56.140 --> 00:26:56.320 +all the time. A recent example of this was a + +00:26:58.380 --> 00:26:58.580 +YouTube download, right, + +00:26:59.540 --> 00:27:00.040 +the YouTube download feature. + +00:27:04.040 --> 00:27:04.540 +At the time, okay, so stepping back, + +00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:07.940 +the request was to have a YouTube download + +00:27:11.940 --> 00:27:12.440 +feature integrated strongly into eMMS so that + +00:27:16.260 --> 00:27:16.640 +you put in a YouTube URL and you can download + +00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:18.140 +the video and play it. + +00:27:22.080 --> 00:27:22.280 +And the question isn't really whether you can + +00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:25.120 +chain YouTube Downloader or 1 of those things + +00:27:26.600 --> 00:27:27.100 +into your EMMS configuration. + +00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:28.520 +You can do whatever you want. + +00:27:30.840 --> 00:27:31.340 +But the question is, does EMMS actually + +00:27:33.340 --> 00:27:33.740 +integrate with it really, + +00:27:35.740 --> 00:27:36.040 +really strongly to the extent where it tells + +00:27:37.800 --> 00:27:38.140 +you oh you don't need to download install + +00:27:40.320 --> 00:27:40.820 +please go ahead and install that or whatever + +00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:44.180 +and at the time we checked it we found out + +00:27:45.800 --> 00:27:46.120 +that you know the version that we were + +00:27:49.280 --> 00:27:49.780 +looking at of the YouTube download or YTDLP + +00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:52.220 +or whatever it was called, + +00:27:56.200 --> 00:27:56.580 +actually downloaded a good amount of + +00:27:59.200 --> 00:27:59.540 +proprietary JavaScript onto your machine and + +00:28:02.300 --> 00:28:02.480 +ran it, just as if you were going on to the + +00:28:06.560 --> 00:28:06.880 +YouTube page, which is not for me to tell + +00:28:09.980 --> 00:28:10.480 +people not to do if they want to do that, + +00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:16.460 +but it's absolutely for me not to cause to + +00:28:18.540 --> 00:28:19.040 +happen on the user's machine without them. + +00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:21.660 +1 of the last thing that I want to do in the + +00:28:25.980 --> 00:28:26.180 +world is have a user inside Emacs press a + +00:28:29.760 --> 00:28:30.160 +button and have proprietary software get + +00:28:32.300 --> 00:28:32.540 +downloaded behind their back and run on their + +00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:38.420 +machine that would be disastrous so we had to + +00:28:41.380 --> 00:28:41.600 +say no we had to say that's I'm sorry that's + +00:28:47.060 --> 00:28:47.380 +beyond the pale and in fact in doing so some + +00:28:51.100 --> 00:28:51.420 +people who were using this system said, + +00:28:53.900 --> 00:28:54.400 +actually I had no idea it was doing this + +00:28:56.660 --> 00:28:57.040 +behind my back. I thought it was just magic. + +00:28:58.860 --> 00:28:59.360 +I thought it was a YouTube video without any + +00:29:01.580 --> 00:29:01.780 +freedom issues. I'm going to look into it or + +00:29:03.120 --> 00:29:03.620 +I'm going to stop using it. + +00:29:11.180 --> 00:29:11.680 +So my advice would be Stand firm and just be + +00:29:15.040 --> 00:29:15.380 +Not not preachy. Don't tell people what they + +00:29:19.580 --> 00:29:19.960 +need to do be very clear about what you stand + +00:29:21.900 --> 00:29:22.400 +for and what the project stands for, + +00:29:28.660 --> 00:29:28.940 +and so they very clearly know where you + +00:29:30.460 --> 00:29:30.960 +stand. And I think that people actually + +00:29:36.540 --> 00:29:37.040 +appreciate that more than a political answer, + +00:29:43.540 --> 00:29:44.040 +right? That has been my experience. + +00:29:49.800 --> 00:29:50.000 +Now, excuse me, taking into account that 1 or + +00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:52.700 +2 people will tell you, + +00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:55.440 +this is terrible. I'm leaving. + +00:30:00.550 --> 00:30:00.625 +[Speaker 2]: If you do this, + +00:30:01.460 --> 00:30:01.620 +[Speaker 1]: This is useless. you're free software or + +00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:03.900 +whatever, and just leave. + +00:30:05.860 --> 00:30:06.360 +But some people are ornery. + +00:30:09.360 --> 00:30:09.620 +That's not necessarily something bad that you + +00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:12.180 +did. But that has happened. + +00:30:14.200 --> 00:30:14.700 +There are multiple stories. + +00:30:16.840 --> 00:30:17.080 +Because the MMS is so old, + +00:30:20.080 --> 00:30:20.580 +there are multiple points in which non-free + +00:30:23.940 --> 00:30:24.140 +software intersected with the EMS because of + +00:30:28.580 --> 00:30:28.820 +multimedia and we had to go the other + +00:30:33.300 --> 00:30:33.800 +direction and so far it has served EMS well + +00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:38.740 +like the project has died as a result. + +00:30:39.800 --> 00:30:40.200 +Of course, can't prove a negative, + +00:30:42.040 --> 00:30:42.540 +don't know where we would be if we had taken, + +00:30:44.760 --> 00:30:44.860 +gone down that route. I'm pretty sure we + +00:30:46.100 --> 00:30:46.600 +would need a new ELPA, + +00:30:50.860 --> 00:30:51.360 +and I think being so clearly integrated with + +00:30:55.040 --> 00:30:55.540 +emacs is a huge benefit to eMMS because it's + +00:30:57.660 --> 00:30:58.160 +it allows people to install it very easily. + +00:31:08.760 --> 00:31:09.020 +And those are all the questions that I can + +00:31:09.020 --> 00:31:09.520 +see. + +00:31:15.060 --> 00:31:15.560 +[Speaker 2]: You diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-gc--emacsgcstats-does-garbage-collection-actually-slow-down-emacs--ihor-radchenko--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-gc--emacsgcstats-does-garbage-collection-actually-slow-down-emacs--ihor-radchenko--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..71a15554 --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-gc--emacsgcstats-does-garbage-collection-actually-slow-down-emacs--ihor-radchenko--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,1049 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:01.620 --> 00:00:02.120 +[Speaker 0]: And then, hi everyone. + +00:00:03.760 --> 00:00:04.150 +Thank you for your nice talk, + +00:00:05.900 --> 00:00:06.400 +I can say it's the Emacs GC. + +00:00:09.280 --> 00:00:09.519 +We have some questions on the pad and maybe + +00:00:11.580 --> 00:00:11.820 +before I would like to ask you something to + +00:00:12.780 --> 00:00:13.280 +the last 1 you have said, + +00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:15.700 +concerning changing the GC strategy, + +00:00:18.500 --> 00:00:18.840 +that it's unlikely that it will be happening + +00:00:20.380 --> 00:00:20.740 +in the next time. Yeah. + +00:00:22.760 --> 00:00:22.940 +Is there any discussion going on or why does + +00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:24.820 +the case it's not changing the strategy? + +00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:27.140 +[Speaker 1]: It's mostly because it's difficult. + +00:00:29.439 --> 00:00:29.860 +I think, yesterday you heard from, + +00:00:33.400 --> 00:00:33.900 +1 of the dev talks that like there was 1 + +00:00:34.980 --> 00:00:35.220 +small, short comment that, + +00:00:36.780 --> 00:00:37.280 +oh yeah, it would be nice to change this + +00:00:39.059 --> 00:00:39.559 +algorithm but it's hard. + +00:00:40.760 --> 00:00:40.840 +[Speaker 0]: So I + +00:00:43.260 --> 00:00:43.700 +[Speaker 1]: mean it's hard not because the algorithm is + +00:00:45.400 --> 00:00:45.720 +that hard but because it's a very low level + +00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:48.500 +code and it must be like very carefully + +00:00:49.960 --> 00:00:50.460 +weighted. So that can be, + +00:00:53.239 --> 00:00:53.640 +it needs to be made sure that the carousel + +00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:55.780 +will work. It's all bugs. + +00:00:57.440 --> 00:00:57.600 +If you have bugs and you can see that, + +00:00:58.660 --> 00:00:59.160 +so it's nothing to work anymore. + +00:01:00.720 --> 00:01:01.200 +[Speaker 0]: So We have a lot of RAM usage. + +00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:02.740 +Yeah. Maybe sometime. + +00:01:06.180 --> 00:01:06.500 +[Speaker 1]: There was like years ago, + +00:01:09.640 --> 00:01:10.140 +there was a branch on generational DC, + +00:01:11.100 --> 00:01:11.600 +if I remember correctly, + +00:01:13.380 --> 00:01:13.880 +but they didn't go anywhere, + +00:01:14.760 --> 00:01:15.260 +unfortunately. + +00:01:18.900 --> 00:01:19.240 +[Speaker 0]: That's a pity. But let's come to the + +00:01:21.500 --> 00:01:22.000 +questions on the pad. So the first 1 is, + +00:01:24.340 --> 00:01:24.840 +are the GC duration statistics correlated + +00:01:27.340 --> 00:01:27.660 +with users? I mean, does the same user + +00:01:29.440 --> 00:01:29.940 +experience GC of various durations? + +00:01:32.900 --> 00:01:33.400 +Or Do some users experience GC of a greater + +00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:36.960 +0.26 exclusively, while others never + +00:01:40.440 --> 00:01:40.940 +experience them? So is it correlated to user + +00:01:43.780 --> 00:01:44.280 +behavior? I guess you said it in your talk. + +00:01:46.160 --> 00:01:46.660 +[Speaker 1]: Well, If you talk formally, + +00:01:49.340 --> 00:01:49.540 +then almost every user has like 1 or 2 + +00:01:51.500 --> 00:01:52.000 +occasions when GC takes more than 0.2 + +00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:53.540 +seconds, but it's like, + +00:01:56.720 --> 00:01:57.040 +maybe something else is using CPU and that's + +00:02:00.720 --> 00:02:00.920 +why, but in practice, there are users who + +00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:04.540 +don't have problem. Half of them that that's + +00:02:05.800 --> 00:02:06.300 +who that's what I looked from statistics. + +00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:10.440 +And dry users who have like really big + +00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:13.020 +problems, like 1 second GC time. + +00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:17.520 +[Speaker 0]: This is dependent on you make some comments + +00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:20.460 +on us in the talk, but could you like extract + +00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:23.200 +on if it's a package, that's a problem or we + +00:02:24.780 --> 00:02:25.280 +as a user behavior are there. + +00:02:30.720 --> 00:02:31.220 +[Speaker 1]: Usually it's something that is, + +00:02:33.760 --> 00:02:33.960 +okay. I'm sharing my screen now, + +00:02:37.580 --> 00:02:38.080 +[Speaker 0]: It's coming on, give it like 2 to 3 seconds. + +00:02:41.480 --> 00:02:41.980 +[Speaker 1]: right? Yeah. So I can just click through + +00:02:42.940 --> 00:02:43.440 +different user statistics. + +00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:49.080 +So like you can see this duration for each + +00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:50.460 +individual user basically. + +00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:54.740 +So you can see like here for example it's + +00:02:56.320 --> 00:02:56.820 +like averages around 0.25 + +00:03:00.040 --> 00:03:00.420 +seconds which is noticeable and here is like + +00:03:03.640 --> 00:03:03.960 +0.1 like someone is all over the place, + +00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:10.060 +probably some. Then like, + +00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:12.020 +what else can we see here? + +00:03:15.140 --> 00:03:15.640 +Yeah, some users like have sub 0.1, + +00:03:23.320 --> 00:03:23.560 +no problem at all. And I have seen some that + +00:03:30.180 --> 00:03:30.240 +really, really bad. I mean, + +00:03:31.880 --> 00:03:32.240 +[Speaker 0]: if it's noticeable, it's all bad. + +00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:37.460 +[Speaker 1]: So yeah. For example, here it's like 0.8 + +00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:42.040 +seconds, 0.5 seconds. I don't know how that + +00:03:48.600 --> 00:03:49.100 +guy uses ZMax. Yeah. you can see it varies. + +00:03:51.160 --> 00:03:51.660 +[Speaker 0]: So It varies quite a lot. + +00:03:52.760 --> 00:03:53.000 +[Speaker 1]: What it depends on, like, + +00:03:54.120 --> 00:03:54.620 +usually the number of packages, + +00:03:58.440 --> 00:03:58.620 +like all kinds of timers going on under the + +00:04:01.720 --> 00:04:02.220 +hood. I think I tried to list... + +00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:12.800 +I'll go through this. I briefly outlined some + +00:04:15.440 --> 00:04:15.940 +important parts. Here, + +00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:18.980 +when you have something like an org agenda, + +00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:21.180 +it will most likely trigger a lot of GCs. + +00:04:23.900 --> 00:04:24.400 +When you have a lot of timers, + +00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:27.980 +when you have something calculated on + +00:04:29.700 --> 00:04:30.200 +modline, it will be frequently triggered. + +00:04:30.900 --> 00:04:31.240 +[Speaker 0]: Well, + +00:04:34.080 --> 00:04:34.260 +[Speaker 1]: yeah. When you have so many packages and + +00:04:35.760 --> 00:04:36.260 +these packages are using a lot of memory. + +00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:41.540 +Like I remember I was surprised by this, + +00:04:44.640 --> 00:04:45.020 +package, home org that was, + +00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:47.060 +caching all the results. + +00:04:48.960 --> 00:04:49.280 +And for large org files, + +00:04:51.540 --> 00:04:51.720 +it was like several hundred megabytes of + +00:04:55.160 --> 00:04:55.660 +data. Well, it just becomes slower. + +00:04:55.900 --> 00:04:56.280 +Yeah. + +00:05:00.020 --> 00:05:00.340 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah. Maybe, maybe a short side note. + +00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:02.760 +Someone asks, what software you're using for + +00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:03.980 +flipping through the PNGs. + +00:05:06.660 --> 00:05:07.160 +Maybe you could shortly throws it in. + +00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:09.280 +[Speaker 1]: What do you mean? Here, + +00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:11.500 +[Speaker 0]: I guess it was just simply, + +00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:13.980 +[Speaker 1]: this, It's it's far. Yeah. + +00:05:16.660 --> 00:05:17.160 +So + +00:05:23.900 --> 00:05:24.400 +[Speaker 0]: yeah. So, question 1 and 2 answered. + +00:05:35.740 --> 00:05:36.040 +To 1 statement you have made, + +00:05:37.500 --> 00:05:38.000 +there was a question concerning the timings. + +00:05:41.180 --> 00:05:41.680 +So you said, okay, everything above 0.1 + +00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:46.120 +second is fine. Maybe There's a short story + +00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:48.980 +of someone who asked a question. + +00:05:50.380 --> 00:05:50.800 +[Speaker 1]: I see the question is about scrolling, + +00:05:51.820 --> 00:05:52.320 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, exactly. + +00:05:55.580 --> 00:05:55.760 +[Speaker 1]: right? Again, there's not much you can do in + +00:05:58.620 --> 00:05:58.860 +terms of trying to adjust the GC time. + +00:06:02.320 --> 00:06:02.820 +I mean, if you make GCs less frequent, + +00:06:07.540 --> 00:06:08.000 +you increase the individual GC time. + +00:06:08.860 --> 00:06:09.280 +If you make them more frequent, + +00:06:11.280 --> 00:06:11.520 +you decrease the individual GC time, + +00:06:12.400 --> 00:06:12.740 +but then they are more frequent. + +00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:16.200 +So what is the point? I think the way to go + +00:06:19.940 --> 00:06:20.080 +here is you can rise to see the short for the + +00:06:20.740 --> 00:06:21.240 +duration of scrolling, + +00:06:22.500 --> 00:06:22.860 +like just for a comment. + +00:06:26.320 --> 00:06:26.740 +I think it's a recommendation from Emacs + +00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:31.660 +devs. So like You do something along the + +00:06:31.660 --> 00:06:32.160 +lines. + +00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:53.800 +Yeah, I'm surely doing something on my screen + +00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:56.180 +and I forgot that I'm not sharing anything. + +00:06:56.680 --> 00:06:57.180 +[Speaker 0]: Exactly. + +00:07:00.700 --> 00:07:01.200 +[Speaker 1]: Simply something like this. + +00:07:08.140 --> 00:07:08.460 +So, basically, if you have some command that + +00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:11.180 +is very important that it should run very + +00:07:13.860 --> 00:07:14.120 +quickly. You temporary increase that + +00:07:15.740 --> 00:07:16.240 +threshold, you run that comment, + +00:07:19.940 --> 00:07:20.140 +then that's all. That's probably the best. + +00:07:21.660 --> 00:07:22.000 +So basically, the best you can do is to delay + +00:07:23.760 --> 00:07:24.260 +it after the command. + +00:07:27.500 --> 00:07:27.700 +[Speaker 0]: So afterwards, it takes a lot of time to do + +00:07:36.140 --> 00:07:36.500 +its stuff. OK. The third 1 has been already + +00:07:40.520 --> 00:07:40.780 +answered, but I just want to get your + +00:07:42.780 --> 00:07:43.280 +information from it. Opinions on the GCMH + +00:07:43.940 --> 00:07:44.440 +mode. + +00:07:48.280 --> 00:07:48.640 +[Speaker 1]: Okay. Yeah, I see that problem, + +00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:50.420 +but that's more like a technical problem. + +00:07:52.360 --> 00:07:52.860 +But there's another problem there. + +00:07:57.340 --> 00:07:57.840 +Yeah, I prepared a small snippet here. + +00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:02.660 +So if you look at the GCMH mode, + +00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:06.040 +it has this concept of low threshold and high + +00:08:08.200 --> 00:08:08.560 +threshold and most of the time it's running + +00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:14.620 +high threshold and then when Emacs is idle, + +00:08:17.320 --> 00:08:17.480 +it falls back to lower threshold and then it + +00:08:19.400 --> 00:08:19.900 +does the GC while Emacs is not used. + +00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:22.360 +That's a good idea, of course. + +00:08:24.380 --> 00:08:24.880 +That's the core idea of GCMH mode. + +00:08:30.520 --> 00:08:30.720 +Unfortunately, the most annoying GC is when + +00:08:31.760 --> 00:08:32.260 +you're actively using max. + +00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:37.419 +And then you have this huge value of GC + +00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:39.299 +counter show and look at the doc stream. + +00:08:41.760 --> 00:08:42.080 +This would be sector value that makes GC + +00:08:43.980 --> 00:08:44.480 +unlikely but does not cost OSP Asian. + +00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:46.880 +So yeah, no wonder like if you don't do GC, + +00:08:49.640 --> 00:08:50.140 +your arm usage will skyrocket. + +00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:54.860 +So they don't, they cannot put it too much, + +00:08:57.720 --> 00:08:58.220 +but this is like already like, + +00:08:59.220 --> 00:08:59.720 +how much was it? + +00:09:10.800 --> 00:09:10.860 +1 gigabyte, that's the default. + +00:09:15.220 --> 00:09:15.720 +And the problem is when you have 1 gigabyte + +00:09:18.680 --> 00:09:19.000 +to garbage collect, it causes really long GC + +00:09:22.040 --> 00:09:22.480 +time. So in GC image mode, + +00:09:23.560 --> 00:09:24.060 +when you're actually using Emacs, + +00:09:28.860 --> 00:09:29.360 +really heavily, the GCs become terrible, + +00:09:34.640 --> 00:09:34.860 +terribly slow. So it may help in case you + +00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:37.540 +don't have too much problems with GC, + +00:09:39.280 --> 00:09:39.720 +but I will say that in such situation, + +00:09:41.920 --> 00:09:42.420 +you can simply increase GC cost percentage, + +00:09:44.540 --> 00:09:45.040 +as I recommend, and it should do it. + +00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:48.640 +But in case of really big problems with + +00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:50.540 +garbage collection, no, + +00:09:51.740 --> 00:09:52.240 +I don't think that will help much. + +00:09:54.800 --> 00:09:54.960 +I used it myself and it didn't help much for + +00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:55.700 +my stuff. + +00:09:59.680 --> 00:10:00.180 +[Speaker 0]: All right. The next question is concerning + +00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:04.820 +freeing up memory. Is there some way to free + +00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:07.420 +up memory such as via unload feature on + +00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:10.120 +Emacs? Often I only need a package loaded for + +00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:12.400 +a single task or short period by the + +00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:13.820 +persistent memory afterwards. + +00:10:19.780 --> 00:10:19.940 +[Speaker 1]: So the packages are usually not that much of + +00:10:22.060 --> 00:10:22.560 +a problem. I mean, the libraries, + +00:10:25.280 --> 00:10:25.780 +the problem is some extra, + +00:10:30.060 --> 00:10:30.340 +like some variable contents or some + +00:10:31.800 --> 00:10:32.300 +histories, some caches. + +00:10:35.280 --> 00:10:35.780 +That's what's eating most of the memory. + +00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:40.740 +There is a package called memory usage and + +00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:45.940 +built in MX memory report. + +00:10:50.900 --> 00:10:51.100 +They allow to see which variables take a lot + +00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:56.500 +of memory. And that way you can try to see + +00:10:58.520 --> 00:10:59.020 +which packages are actually problematic. + +00:11:03.340 --> 00:11:03.840 +So for example, I recall, + +00:11:05.640 --> 00:11:06.140 +and that was not exactly, + +00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:09.880 +I remember there was a package that was + +00:11:11.040 --> 00:11:11.260 +literally in command line, + +00:11:14.020 --> 00:11:14.240 +like prompt history. I think it was in + +00:11:17.540 --> 00:11:18.040 +command. And when you do like, + +00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:20.940 +when you save every message in your chart + +00:11:25.280 --> 00:11:25.780 +into prompt history, that can grow very fast + +00:11:29.220 --> 00:11:29.600 +and can go to several hundred megabytes just + +00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:32.020 +in that history. And that can cause major + +00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:38.360 +problems. So, yes, profiling the largest + +00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:41.600 +variables with the largest buffers that might + +00:11:42.660 --> 00:11:42.900 +give some clues. Again, + +00:11:43.740 --> 00:11:44.240 +there is no silver bullet. + +00:11:49.080 --> 00:11:49.320 +[Speaker 0]: Right. I think the last question on the + +00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:51.500 +patterns. At first, very nice presentation. + +00:11:51.620 --> 00:11:51.780 +[Speaker 1]: I can + +00:11:53.980 --> 00:11:54.480 +[Speaker 0]: also only agree with that. + +00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:56.640 +I just experienced with a threshold and + +00:11:58.200 --> 00:11:58.700 +lowered my GCE lapse from 1.1 + +00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:01.940 +to 0.06 seconds during startup. + +00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:04.100 +Interestingly, going to 10 megabytes + +00:12:06.100 --> 00:12:06.340 +increased the time. 4 megabytes was a sweet + +00:12:07.800 --> 00:12:08.300 +spot for my system. What is the recommended + +00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:11.260 +way to lower the value back to the default + +00:12:12.340 --> 00:12:12.840 +value after startup is completed? + +00:12:16.160 --> 00:12:16.660 +[Speaker 1]: I think you just use after init hook. + +00:12:23.940 --> 00:12:24.440 +[Speaker 0]: This was a relatively fast answer. + +00:12:29.180 --> 00:12:29.480 +[Speaker 1]: So basically for example Doom does this, + +00:12:31.940 --> 00:12:32.220 +it temporary writes a gcconcert hold during + +00:12:37.260 --> 00:12:37.760 +startup and yeah after init hook the code is + +00:12:39.880 --> 00:12:40.380 +like it's 1 of the commonly suggested + +00:12:43.940 --> 00:12:44.440 +approaches and is I believe it's the right 1. + +00:12:49.180 --> 00:12:49.680 +[Speaker 0]: Right. To have joined us 1 was a microphone. + +00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:52.360 +So Peter, do you have any questions that you + +00:12:55.240 --> 00:12:55.640 +want to question? And maybe as a side note, + +00:12:57.380 --> 00:12:57.740 +we only have 4 minutes left and afterwards + +00:12:59.240 --> 00:12:59.480 +this happy weekend will still be open, + +00:13:01.400 --> 00:13:01.900 +but we will switch back to the talks. + +00:13:05.380 --> 00:13:05.820 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah, no more questions on garbage + +00:13:07.640 --> 00:13:08.140 +collection, but I just wanted to thank Ihor + +00:13:10.440 --> 00:13:10.940 +for his engagement in the community. + +00:13:15.300 --> 00:13:15.480 +And especially with, I'm a co-maintainer on + +00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:18.100 +orgnotor and he's helped us a lot with + +00:13:21.680 --> 00:13:21.820 +getting us up to date with newer versions of + +00:13:22.680 --> 00:13:22.960 +org and stuff like that. + +00:13:24.680 --> 00:13:25.140 +So just wanted to thank you in person. + +00:13:25.140 --> 00:13:25.640 +[Speaker 1]: Right. + +00:13:33.540 --> 00:13:33.800 +[Speaker 0]: Maybe 1 question for me, + +00:13:35.460 --> 00:13:35.760 +you had some bit talked about memory + +00:13:40.640 --> 00:13:40.800 +fragmentation. So is there any way to or is + +00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:42.580 +it fixed by Emacs itself? + +00:13:43.740 --> 00:13:43.940 +So you have like + +00:13:46.520 --> 00:13:46.980 +[Speaker 1]: a chunk of memory fragmentation is basically + +00:13:51.420 --> 00:13:51.600 +your OS. Yeah, Emacs releases the memory and + +00:13:55.020 --> 00:13:55.200 +then OS can rearrange it depending on the + +00:13:58.320 --> 00:13:58.820 +implementation of its memory manager. + +00:14:01.520 --> 00:14:01.720 +[Speaker 0]: Okay, so the GC just releases it really and + +00:14:04.400 --> 00:14:04.900 +not so it could be that a mix is like + +00:14:07.420 --> 00:14:07.840 +[Speaker 1]: doing it. You have like memory pages, + +00:14:09.560 --> 00:14:09.760 +right? Yeah. And you see, + +00:14:12.140 --> 00:14:12.600 +can release a part of this page just like + +00:14:14.760 --> 00:14:15.060 +here and there. And depending on the exact + +00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:18.220 +situation is your arm at each moment of time, + +00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:20.640 +or as may or may not be able to arrange + +00:14:25.160 --> 00:14:25.640 +[Speaker 0]: so + +00:14:27.620 --> 00:14:27.940 +[Speaker 1]: things. So, how the exact the data you cannot + +00:14:30.160 --> 00:14:30.320 +really predict it. It really varies like you + +00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:31.480 +use Windows, you use Linux, + +00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:33.740 +you use like malloc, something else, + +00:14:36.260 --> 00:14:36.600 +but it has nothing to do with Emacs. + +00:14:38.040 --> 00:14:38.540 +It's just something you have to deal with. + +00:14:41.780 --> 00:14:41.940 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, but my question was in the way that we + +00:14:43.460 --> 00:14:43.860 +are giving the memory back to the operating + +00:14:46.020 --> 00:14:46.440 +system, not just holding it as used and then + +00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:50.140 +to our own memory, like stuff as Emacs that + +00:14:51.680 --> 00:14:52.120 +we do not need to interact with the operating + +00:14:56.040 --> 00:14:56.540 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. Emacs does not really hold anything. + +00:14:59.160 --> 00:14:59.580 +[Speaker 0]: system. That was the question. + +00:15:01.920 --> 00:15:02.220 +[Speaker 1]: Okay. I was really hoping it does, + +00:15:02.760 --> 00:15:03.260 +but yeah, unfortunately, + +00:15:05.640 --> 00:15:06.140 +because nothing much can be done on Emacs. + +00:15:08.800 --> 00:15:08.940 +[Speaker 0]: Okay. it's not Probably a lot faster if it's + +00:15:10.580 --> 00:15:10.800 +just holding it and when it needs more, + +00:15:12.380 --> 00:15:12.880 +then just get more from the OS. + +00:15:14.220 --> 00:15:14.620 +[Speaker 1]: There are certain caveats, + +00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:17.220 +for example, there's something called image + +00:15:20.560 --> 00:15:20.740 +cache. And because Emacs stores images in + +00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:23.800 +uncompressed format, it can occupy quite a + +00:15:25.020 --> 00:15:25.320 +lot of memory. In particular, + +00:15:26.520 --> 00:15:27.020 +when you will like view PDFs, + +00:15:30.140 --> 00:15:30.640 +like you open 10, like 20 PDFs in 1 session, + +00:15:33.460 --> 00:15:33.820 +you may have like some image cache blowing + +00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:37.220 +up, But that's not common for people. + +00:15:41.420 --> 00:15:41.920 +[Speaker 0]: So, guess we are on our time exactly. + +00:15:43.580 --> 00:15:44.080 +So in the next + +00:15:46.680 --> 00:15:47.180 +[Speaker 1]: I think I was not exactly accurate. + +00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:49.640 +This 1 command, which is, + +00:15:53.500 --> 00:15:54.000 +I think, Nemax 30, is called a malloc trim. + +00:15:57.520 --> 00:15:58.020 +A max malloc trim. It's interactive. + +00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:04.580 +So that can help to release some memory. + +00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:08.700 +I think the way it works is like forces OS to + +00:16:12.040 --> 00:16:12.540 +make use of the released memory. + +00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:15.460 +[Speaker 0]: Okay. That would be like, + +00:16:18.420 --> 00:16:18.640 +we are by the way, switch back to the next + +00:16:21.420 --> 00:16:21.680 +talk. But + +00:16:24.220 --> 00:16:24.400 +[Speaker 1]: so basically what happens here is that OS may + +00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:27.720 +not release like, even Emacs says, + +00:16:28.740 --> 00:16:29.240 +okay, this memory is free, + +00:16:30.060 --> 00:16:30.560 +depending on the implementation, + +00:16:32.760 --> 00:16:32.980 +I might think, okay, but I still hold that + +00:16:34.860 --> 00:16:35.080 +memory associated with Emacs just in case + +00:16:35.800 --> 00:16:36.180 +Emacs needs more memories, + +00:16:38.940 --> 00:16:39.180 +and I can immediately put the data there + +00:16:41.420 --> 00:16:41.920 +without like more arrangement to allocate + +00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:45.980 +more. And this analog stream basically forces + +00:16:48.740 --> 00:16:49.240 +the OS to release it, like no matter what. + +00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:52.860 +[Speaker 0]: Because most people, when they are using + +00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:54.620 +Emacs, I have the feeling they are only using + +00:16:56.160 --> 00:16:56.480 +Emacs. So it would be kind of interesting if + +00:16:57.880 --> 00:16:58.140 +you just take like, I don't know, + +00:17:00.060 --> 00:17:00.560 +2 gigabytes or something of memory and Emacs + +00:17:02.900 --> 00:17:03.160 +like does what it wants on that and the OS + +00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:04.540 +cannot really take it back. + +00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:06.040 +This was my idea when I + +00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:08.319 +[Speaker 1]: was So when you see 2 gigabytes in OS, + +00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:10.859 +it doesn't mean that OS cannot take it back. + +00:17:13.859 --> 00:17:14.359 +It may still like allocate certain portion, + +00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:16.140 +even technically free, + +00:17:20.940 --> 00:17:21.319 +but just for future. So this is where Malloc + +00:17:22.339 --> 00:17:22.579 +Dream works. It's like, + +00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:25.540 +it says, yes, OS, I really not going to hold + +00:17:26.500 --> 00:17:27.000 +this for this free memory. + +00:17:31.700 --> 00:17:31.860 +For sure. If you try this MX Malloc Gene, + +00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:34.140 +you will see like a few times to hundreds of + +00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:35.700 +megabytes of read immediately. + +00:17:38.560 --> 00:17:39.060 +[Speaker 0]: Have a look when I have the time. + +00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:41.600 +[Speaker 1]: I + +00:17:43.260 --> 00:17:43.680 +[Speaker 0]: guess if nobody has any questions, + +00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:46.160 +I guess on the pad, there was Nothing else. + +00:17:47.900 --> 00:17:48.340 +I guess we can just close it. + +00:17:49.140 --> 00:17:49.600 +Thanks for the discussion. + +00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:51.140 +Thanks for answering the questions. + +00:17:56.020 --> 00:17:56.520 +[Speaker 1]: Thank you for the great conference. + +00:17:59.340 --> 00:17:59.840 +And yeah, for your volunteer work. + +00:18:02.230 --> 00:18:02.241 +And yeah, for quietly panicking in the + +00:18:02.262 --> 00:18:02.273 +background, right? Yeah, + +00:18:02.337 --> 00:18:02.348 +I mean... You have to be quiet, + +00:18:02.560 --> 00:18:03.060 +you're panicking in the background. diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-hyperdrive--hyperdriveel-peertopeer-filesystem-in-emacs--joseph-turner--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-hyperdrive--hyperdriveel-peertopeer-filesystem-in-emacs--joseph-turner--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..2f7b316a --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-hyperdrive--hyperdriveel-peertopeer-filesystem-in-emacs--joseph-turner--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,1595 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:12.660 --> 00:00:13.160 +[Speaker 0]: I guess we are now live. + +00:00:15.360 --> 00:00:15.860 +So Joseph, thanks for being here. + +00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:17.460 +Thanks for talking to the hyperdrive. + +00:00:22.240 --> 00:00:22.440 +We already had some, or we already have a lot + +00:00:24.360 --> 00:00:24.619 +of questions here. And I guess I would start + +00:00:26.040 --> 00:00:26.540 +with, let's call it the difficult, + +00:00:29.119 --> 00:00:29.439 +the most difficult 1. So when you were + +00:00:30.820 --> 00:00:31.320 +developing hyperdrive for your colleague, + +00:00:34.760 --> 00:00:34.920 +what do you, or what have you learned the + +00:00:34.920 --> 00:00:35.420 +most? + +00:00:43.080 --> 00:00:43.320 +[Speaker 1]: I have learned how much faster and more + +00:00:46.360 --> 00:00:46.620 +enjoyable the development of this project can + +00:00:51.540 --> 00:00:52.040 +be with talented people working by my side, + +00:00:55.960 --> 00:00:56.260 +like Jonas and Adam and Prat and Mo, + +00:00:58.100 --> 00:00:58.260 +it's been really a pleasure to work with + +00:00:58.440 --> 00:00:58.940 +these folks. + +00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:05.140 +[Speaker 0]: So you have started at first on your own and + +00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:07.760 +then probably pushed it somewhere in open + +00:01:10.320 --> 00:01:10.820 +source or how did it develop, + +00:01:11.740 --> 00:01:12.240 +your development experience? + +00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:16.160 +[Speaker 1]: A few years ago, we started looking into + +00:01:21.960 --> 00:01:22.200 +using peer-to-peer technology for sharing all + +00:01:25.080 --> 00:01:25.360 +kinds of information. And we came across Move + +00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:29.440 +SignWeaver, who was recommended to us by a + +00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:32.720 +mutual friend. And we started working with + +00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:34.340 +Move, and then about a year ago, + +00:01:37.060 --> 00:01:37.560 +we started looking into using Emacs, + +00:01:40.020 --> 00:01:40.460 +the peer-to-peer software, + +00:01:43.520 --> 00:01:43.780 +so that we could make use of all of the + +00:01:46.340 --> 00:01:46.500 +powerful things that Emacs already does with + +00:01:47.780 --> 00:01:48.280 +org mode and other packages. + +00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:51.760 +And then we started working with Adam and + +00:01:52.320 --> 00:01:52.820 +Pratt and Jonas. + +00:01:54.280 --> 00:01:54.780 +[Speaker 2]: Yes. + +00:01:59.880 --> 00:02:00.380 +[Speaker 0]: So we are skipping to the next question. + +00:02:03.700 --> 00:02:04.200 +So to read it out, I use multiple computers + +00:02:06.200 --> 00:02:06.480 +and my partner also would like access to my + +00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:09.139 +notes. So, 2 questions at first. + +00:02:12.440 --> 00:02:12.720 +First 1, how well would this work with using + +00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:15.300 +this to edit my Zettelkasten hyperdrive using + +00:02:15.660 --> 00:02:16.160 +multiple computers? + +00:02:21.260 --> 00:02:21.760 +[Speaker 1]: Hyperdrive is single writer currently. + +00:02:24.140 --> 00:02:24.280 +So what that means is that if you have a + +00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:25.580 +hyperdrive that you've created, + +00:02:28.320 --> 00:02:28.820 +you're the only 1 who can make changes to it. + +00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:32.060 +And that's limited right now to editing 1 + +00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:33.740 +hyperdrive from 1 machine. + +00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:38.740 +In theory, you could use the same private key + +00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:40.680 +and write to it from multiple machines, + +00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:44.020 +but you would have to make sure that you sync + +00:02:46.300 --> 00:02:46.520 +it on both machines and didn't make + +00:02:48.160 --> 00:02:48.480 +concurrent writes because then you would fork + +00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:50.340 +the history of your hyperdrive, + +00:02:51.020 --> 00:02:51.520 +and that would be bad. + +00:02:57.740 --> 00:02:57.980 +But we've spent a lot of time making links to + +00:02:59.780 --> 00:03:00.280 +hyperdrives work well, + +00:03:02.160 --> 00:03:02.360 +relative links within hyperdrives to other + +00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:03.840 +files inside of your drive. + +00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:06.020 +So you should be able to, + +00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:10.520 +with some exceptions, just take your personal + +00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:13.780 +information management set of org files or + +00:03:14.760 --> 00:03:15.260 +whatever it is that you have, + +00:03:18.160 --> 00:03:18.260 +and upload them into a hyperdrive if all of + +00:03:22.740 --> 00:03:23.100 +that is publicly available or would be good + +00:03:27.260 --> 00:03:27.400 +to share publicly. And you can make that + +00:03:28.940 --> 00:03:29.440 +available for other people to link to. + +00:03:30.640 --> 00:03:30.840 +So you can have multiple different + +00:03:32.040 --> 00:03:32.540 +hyperdrives that link to 1 another. + +00:03:35.600 --> 00:03:36.100 +[Speaker 0]: So it's like a huge network of hyperdrives + +00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:38.500 +connected to each other in some way. + +00:03:39.140 --> 00:03:39.640 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. + +00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:41.620 +[Speaker 0]: So that's kind of neat and kind of cool. + +00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:44.480 +There was a follow-up question or the second + +00:03:46.780 --> 00:03:47.100 +part of the question. Okay, + +00:03:48.860 --> 00:03:49.200 +then using the same hyperdrive is probably + +00:03:51.820 --> 00:03:52.060 +not possible, but interlinking would be the + +00:03:57.500 --> 00:03:57.840 +best way to do it. There was a question + +00:03:59.540 --> 00:03:59.820 +concerning how they should install it. + +00:04:01.160 --> 00:04:01.440 +So What would be a good way of getting + +00:04:03.580 --> 00:04:04.080 +hyperdrives if you do not want to install npm + +00:04:06.460 --> 00:04:06.740 +and have a binary? Could you compile it with + +00:04:08.300 --> 00:04:08.800 +denner or rusk or zig or go? + +00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:11.120 +CLI alternative tool, I would prefer to + +00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:12.340 +download a single binary. + +00:04:17.420 --> 00:04:17.720 +[Speaker 1]: There's something that Jonas was playing + +00:04:20.459 --> 00:04:20.800 +around with using Geeks to install Hyper + +00:04:22.860 --> 00:04:23.360 +Gateway. So the way that HyperDrive.el, + +00:04:26.880 --> 00:04:27.380 +the Emacs package, works right now is similar + +00:04:30.300 --> 00:04:30.720 +to the way that the transmission Emacs client + +00:04:34.200 --> 00:04:34.640 +for BitTorrent works, where you have a client + +00:04:37.320 --> 00:04:37.480 +in Emacs that connects to a daemon that is a + +00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:39.280 +separate process that's running on your + +00:04:41.820 --> 00:04:42.320 +machine, the transmission daemon. + +00:04:43.500 --> 00:04:44.000 +But in this case, we have HyperGateway, + +00:04:46.060 --> 00:04:46.560 +which is running as a daemon on your machine. + +00:04:48.180 --> 00:04:48.680 +And then hyperdrive.el + +00:04:51.020 --> 00:04:51.520 +connects to that daemon and sends requests, + +00:04:53.520 --> 00:04:53.620 +and all of the hyperdrive stuff under the + +00:04:55.880 --> 00:04:56.380 +hood happens with her gateway. + +00:04:57.940 --> 00:04:58.440 +But so that package can, + +00:05:00.280 --> 00:05:00.460 +or hypergateway, the program can be + +00:05:02.900 --> 00:05:03.080 +installed, The easiest way is to just + +00:05:04.400 --> 00:05:04.900 +download it from the GitHub releases. + +00:05:07.060 --> 00:05:07.560 +You could also use NPM to install it. + +00:05:09.520 --> 00:05:09.680 +And then the third option that we've been + +00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:13.040 +playing around with is Jonas was writing a + +00:05:14.540 --> 00:05:15.040 +little script to install it using Geeks, + +00:05:18.340 --> 00:05:18.840 +since Geeks now comes with Node 18. + +00:05:20.740 --> 00:05:20.940 +And so you should be able to install it using + +00:05:20.940 --> 00:05:21.440 +Geeks. + +00:05:25.320 --> 00:05:25.520 +[Speaker 0]: Right, thank you. We have 2 people here + +00:05:26.100 --> 00:05:26.600 +joined with microphone. + +00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:30.560 +Do we have now any question to Joseph or just + +00:05:32.060 --> 00:05:32.560 +here for chilling out. + +00:05:41.820 --> 00:05:42.260 +I guess it's a no. Plasma, + +00:05:42.260 --> 00:05:42.760 +yeah. + +00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:46.260 +[Speaker 3]: What about using, having some of the + +00:05:47.960 --> 00:05:48.460 +information being private in the hyperdrives. + +00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:54.400 +[Speaker 1]: That's not what we have been focusing on at + +00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:55.640 +this point. At this point, + +00:05:57.340 --> 00:05:57.660 +what we've been working on is mainly using + +00:06:02.180 --> 00:06:02.680 +hyperdrives for a public forum type tool. + +00:06:06.420 --> 00:06:06.560 +But you could encrypt those files if you + +00:06:09.340 --> 00:06:09.840 +wanted to. You can also just, + +00:06:13.660 --> 00:06:14.160 +a poor man's security would just be to share + +00:06:16.660 --> 00:06:16.960 +your HyperDrive link only with those people + +00:06:19.060 --> 00:06:19.560 +that you want to have access to your drive. + +00:06:21.820 --> 00:06:22.240 +But the way that it works right now is anyone + +00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:24.280 +who has the link to a hyperdrive can access + +00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:26.420 +its content. So long as there are peers + +00:06:28.740 --> 00:06:28.900 +available on the network who can serve it to + +00:06:28.900 --> 00:06:29.400 +you. + +00:06:37.440 --> 00:06:37.660 +[Speaker 0]: Any follow up question from your side, + +00:06:37.660 --> 00:06:38.160 +Plasma? + +00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:47.220 +[Speaker 3]: I had 1, I'll just have to re-remember it. + +00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:55.600 +[Speaker 0]: If you remember it, just feel free to + +00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:56.500 +interrupt me. + +00:06:58.980 --> 00:06:59.220 +[Speaker 3]: What about working? I've looked at this + +00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:03.480 +before. What about, if I remember correctly, + +00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:05.220 +it doesn't do as well with large files, + +00:07:09.060 --> 00:07:09.520 +so if you're going to store 200 gigs of video + +00:07:12.180 --> 00:07:12.520 +files, stuff like IPFS works a lot better, + +00:07:15.200 --> 00:07:15.480 +or BitTorrent. This is, + +00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:17.620 +are you, were you using the, + +00:07:21.980 --> 00:07:22.300 +any way of using multiple protocols for stuff + +00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:25.800 +like that? Or what were you doing with, + +00:07:27.340 --> 00:07:27.480 +or were you just doing the small files with + +00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:29.180 +the same protocol? Or + +00:07:34.440 --> 00:07:34.920 +[Speaker 1]: I would love to see an IPFS client in Emacs + +00:07:37.260 --> 00:07:37.700 +as well that could interface with Kubo or + +00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:40.240 +some other IPFS daemon and I think that those + +00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:41.620 +could work really well together. + +00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:45.860 +We mostly have been playing around with + +00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:47.740 +sharing relatively small files, + +00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:52.240 +up to hundreds of megabytes or maybe a + +00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:55.640 +gigabyte. We haven't played around yet with + +00:07:57.380 --> 00:07:57.880 +hyperdrive.el, the Emacs client, + +00:07:59.240 --> 00:07:59.740 +testing that with HyperGateway. + +00:08:04.020 --> 00:08:04.160 +But there may be other experiments that have + +00:08:05.880 --> 00:08:06.380 +been done that show that that works well. + +00:08:10.880 --> 00:08:11.320 +The main thing is that IPFS uses content + +00:08:14.820 --> 00:08:15.060 +addressability to reduce duplication of the + +00:08:16.620 --> 00:08:17.120 +content. Whereas in HyperDrive, + +00:08:20.140 --> 00:08:20.320 +if you upload the same file with the same + +00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:23.620 +contents twice, now you have double the + +00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:25.580 +content being stored in your HyperDrive. + +00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:26.540 +It's not deduplicated. + +00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:31.300 +You can always clear out part of the history + +00:08:36.340 --> 00:08:36.659 +of your hyperdrive But IPFS has really good + +00:08:39.140 --> 00:08:39.640 +built-in deduplication whereas hyperdrive + +00:08:39.860 --> 00:08:40.360 +does not + +00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:44.540 +[Speaker 4]: I have a question. + +00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:47.580 +[Speaker 3]: What about like commenting on other like if + +00:08:50.140 --> 00:08:50.600 +you have a couple of different Hypercore + +00:08:53.900 --> 00:08:54.220 +blogs, what about like commenting between + +00:08:56.680 --> 00:08:57.040 +them? Like you have some people who have a + +00:08:59.280 --> 00:08:59.640 +commenting form on Reddit for their blog + +00:08:59.640 --> 00:09:00.140 +posts. + +00:09:04.640 --> 00:09:04.760 +[Speaker 1]: So Move SignWeaver has been doing a lot of + +00:09:07.880 --> 00:09:08.380 +work recently with the distributed press API + +00:09:12.040 --> 00:09:12.540 +to integrate ActivityPub with these + +00:09:14.120 --> 00:09:14.620 +peer-to-peer technologies. + +00:09:17.980 --> 00:09:18.240 +Move can give you more information about + +00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:22.440 +that. But there is another feature that we'd + +00:09:23.400 --> 00:09:23.900 +like to add to hyperdrive.el, + +00:09:29.140 --> 00:09:29.640 +which is peer discovery using the swarming + +00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:31.100 +feature that HyperCore, + +00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:35.100 +HyperSWARM offers, where you'd be able to say + +00:09:38.500 --> 00:09:38.660 +that my node, my peer-to-peer node is + +00:09:41.640 --> 00:09:41.840 +interested in Emacs and free software as + +00:09:43.100 --> 00:09:43.320 +topics. And those would be 2 different + +00:09:45.060 --> 00:09:45.300 +topics. I would advertise on the network that + +00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:46.740 +I'm interested in those topics. + +00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:49.480 +And I would be able to discover other peers + +00:09:52.040 --> 00:09:52.200 +on the network who have also advertised that + +00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:53.940 +they're interested in those same topics. + +00:09:56.040 --> 00:09:56.320 +And then they would tell me, + +00:09:59.260 --> 00:09:59.760 +hey, here's the public key of my hyperdrive. + +00:10:01.820 --> 00:10:02.320 +Come check it out. I have posted information + +00:10:04.300 --> 00:10:04.540 +about those topics. And so in that way, + +00:10:06.860 --> 00:10:07.360 +you'd be able to, in a distributed fashion, + +00:10:09.660 --> 00:10:09.800 +discover other peers on the network who are + +00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:11.600 +interested in topics that you're interested + +00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:12.100 +in. + +00:10:16.780 --> 00:10:16.960 +[Speaker 3]: Something that would be useful in addition to + +00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:20.100 +that idea is like if you had your emacs + +00:10:25.560 --> 00:10:25.680 +Zettelkasten Publish like let's say you have + +00:10:27.860 --> 00:10:28.140 +some private data You make sure that that's + +00:10:29.800 --> 00:10:30.060 +scrubbed out before it goes to your hyper + +00:10:31.760 --> 00:10:32.260 +core and then you have another part of it + +00:10:35.540 --> 00:10:35.940 +that gets turned into a website for it's also + +00:10:38.040 --> 00:10:38.240 +given to other hyper core clients but you'd + +00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:40.620 +rather get the emacs users the org documents + +00:10:44.760 --> 00:10:44.920 +then you also publish some of them on a + +00:10:48.680 --> 00:10:48.840 +website so everybody as much people can get + +00:10:53.560 --> 00:10:53.960 +it as possible. And then a way of figuring + +00:10:55.640 --> 00:10:56.140 +out who you'd want to do, + +00:10:57.780 --> 00:10:58.180 +or if you're an Emacs user, + +00:10:59.860 --> 00:11:00.040 +maybe figure out that they're all related to + +00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:01.640 +each other, but you want to get the art mode + +00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:03.580 +documents because you're using EMAX. + +00:11:05.900 --> 00:11:06.400 +Yeah. + +00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:10.760 +[Speaker 0]: Maybe a side note, we have 4 minutes here on + +00:11:12.040 --> 00:11:12.400 +before we switch into the next track, + +00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:13.700 +just to let you know. + +00:11:17.900 --> 00:11:18.400 +[Speaker 1]: Thank you. So the hyper drive mirror feature + +00:11:21.220 --> 00:11:21.720 +that we added, would allow you to selectively + +00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:24.960 +choose which files you want to share in a + +00:11:28.500 --> 00:11:28.780 +hyperdrive. So, with Prot's denote file + +00:11:30.660 --> 00:11:31.000 +naming scheme or Carl Voigt's file tags + +00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:33.760 +naming scheme, you could just specify a + +00:11:35.940 --> 00:11:36.140 +regular expression. And you could say, + +00:11:40.140 --> 00:11:40.460 +I want to share out of my directory of org + +00:11:42.560 --> 00:11:42.740 +files, I want to share only those files that + +00:11:44.220 --> 00:11:44.720 +have been tagged as public, + +00:11:47.320 --> 00:11:47.520 +or only those files that have been tagged as + +00:11:49.680 --> 00:11:49.840 +emacs and then only those ones would get + +00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:51.220 +uploaded into your hyperdrive + +00:11:54.280 --> 00:11:54.560 +[Speaker 3]: or exclude all in any of the ones that say + +00:11:54.560 --> 00:11:55.060 +private + +00:12:01.620 --> 00:12:02.120 +[Speaker 0]: yep mike had a question + +00:12:05.220 --> 00:12:05.720 +[Speaker 4]: yeah I have a question for the hyperdrive. + +00:12:08.520 --> 00:12:08.940 +So I just maybe I missed it and you haven't + +00:12:09.340 --> 00:12:09.840 +put a link. + +00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:16.700 +[Speaker 1]: Oh, Mikhail, we can't hear you. + +00:12:22.660 --> 00:12:23.160 +[Speaker 3]: Heard you for a second. + +00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:28.940 +[Speaker 1]: Yes? + +00:12:29.640 --> 00:12:30.040 +[Speaker 4]: Can someone hear me? Okay, + +00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:31.400 +I have no idea what happened to my + +00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:32.980 +microphone, but now it's back. + +00:12:34.760 --> 00:12:34.920 +[Speaker 3]: Now we can. You can see the microphone on the + +00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:36.340 +top of the screen. So + +00:12:38.940 --> 00:12:39.080 +[Speaker 4]: yes, thank you. Okay. I have a question to + +00:12:41.520 --> 00:12:41.720 +hyperdrive. Is the hyperdrive a find on the + +00:12:46.160 --> 00:12:46.320 +hole punch point, point T O hole Or is it + +00:12:47.020 --> 00:12:47.520 +just another hyperdrive? + +00:12:51.260 --> 00:12:51.760 +[Speaker 1]: That's exactly the project that we're using. + +00:12:54.520 --> 00:12:55.020 +So the HolePunch team has released hyperdrive + +00:12:59.340 --> 00:12:59.620 +and other hyper core libraries as free + +00:13:01.880 --> 00:13:02.380 +software libraries that you can use. + +00:13:03.940 --> 00:13:04.440 +And so MoV SignWeaver, + +00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:07.440 +the project that MoV is working on, + +00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:11.620 +HyperGateway, depends on those libraries and + +00:13:15.520 --> 00:13:15.880 +it makes it easy for you to build other + +00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:17.700 +clients like hyperdrive.el + +00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:21.100 +which connect to the hyperdrive network. + +00:13:22.800 --> 00:13:23.300 +I hope that answers your question. + +00:13:25.140 --> 00:13:25.440 +[Speaker 4]: Yes it does, thank you. + +00:13:28.380 --> 00:13:28.620 +And what did make you choose hyperdrive for + +00:13:29.380 --> 00:13:29.880 +this Emacs project? + +00:13:34.400 --> 00:13:34.900 +[Speaker 1]: Mainly the fact that the drives are mutable, + +00:13:37.660 --> 00:13:38.160 +which makes it distinct from IPFS or + +00:13:40.800 --> 00:13:41.020 +BitTorrent, where when you share some piece + +00:13:44.760 --> 00:13:45.060 +of content, you're stuck with that static + +00:13:46.800 --> 00:13:47.020 +piece of content, which works well for some + +00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:50.100 +cases, but if you say you have a Zettelkasten + +00:13:52.300 --> 00:13:52.500 +or you have a set of org files that you want + +00:13:56.120 --> 00:13:56.580 +to share with people, you want to be able to + +00:13:58.860 --> 00:13:59.160 +update those files and have other people pull + +00:13:59.960 --> 00:14:00.360 +those updates from you. + +00:14:02.300 --> 00:14:02.720 +And so HyperDrive allows you to have these + +00:14:05.340 --> 00:14:05.820 +mutable sets of files that you can share and + +00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:08.600 +use the same link for other peers to pull the + +00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:09.800 +latest changes from you. + +00:14:11.660 --> 00:14:11.960 +Also, it's versioned, as we showed in the + +00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:15.700 +video, which is really helpful for having + +00:14:17.500 --> 00:14:17.900 +community deliberations and community + +00:14:19.400 --> 00:14:19.600 +discussions where you want to be able to + +00:14:22.420 --> 00:14:22.700 +reference some something that somebody said + +00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:26.320 +in the past and not have it get deleted or + +00:14:26.860 --> 00:14:27.360 +changed or something. + +00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:31.100 +[Speaker 0]: We are now switching to talk So just for + +00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:33.200 +letting you know if you want to say something + +00:14:37.640 --> 00:14:37.840 +now. Too late. The BB room is still open, + +00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:38.860 +so you can still discuss. + +00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:41.980 +There's also a lot going on on the pad. + +00:14:47.980 --> 00:14:48.480 +But you can also discuss here inside and + +00:14:49.760 --> 00:14:50.260 +answer the pet questions maybe later. + +00:14:52.800 --> 00:14:53.300 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, there are good questions. + +00:14:58.680 --> 00:14:59.180 +I'll go ahead, please. + +00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:01.620 +[Speaker 3]: continuing here on the pad? + +00:15:04.540 --> 00:15:05.040 +[Speaker 1]: Are we I can hear you. + +00:15:07.540 --> 00:15:08.040 +[Speaker 5]: Yeah, so the question I had on the pad was, + +00:15:10.760 --> 00:15:10.900 +would it make sense in any sense to put a + +00:15:13.820 --> 00:15:13.940 +FUSE interface or put the POSIX semantics in + +00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:15.460 +front of this at some point? + +00:15:17.800 --> 00:15:18.080 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, that would be cool. + +00:15:20.680 --> 00:15:21.060 +It's kind of a similar question to any plans + +00:15:21.680 --> 00:15:22.180 +for a Tramp interface. + +00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:25.940 +There was a project that the HyperCore + +00:15:31.160 --> 00:15:31.500 +HolePunch team was working on a year or more + +00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:34.820 +ago that provided a FUSE interface. + +00:15:39.560 --> 00:15:40.060 +And I think it didn't pan out. + +00:15:43.580 --> 00:15:43.940 +But it's a good idea. Same with the Tramp + +00:15:46.560 --> 00:15:46.720 +interface. It seems like a good idea that + +00:15:51.900 --> 00:15:52.260 +would make it possible to more easily hook + +00:15:55.520 --> 00:15:56.020 +into the built-in Emacs functionality for, + +00:16:01.340 --> 00:16:01.840 +for example, like incremental file name + +00:16:03.680 --> 00:16:03.960 +completion, which we don't currently support + +00:16:09.800 --> 00:16:10.260 +in Hyperdrive.el. So I'd love to have + +00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:13.220 +feedback and design ideas for those projects. + +00:16:15.860 --> 00:16:16.020 +[Speaker 5]: Yeah, there's just Everything in Emacs just + +00:16:17.980 --> 00:16:18.280 +sort of assumes the file system is there and + +00:16:20.940 --> 00:16:21.440 +usable in that way. That's all. + +00:16:23.980 --> 00:16:24.480 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, it's a good idea. + +00:16:28.180 --> 00:16:28.680 +[Speaker 3]: An idea for the privacy type thing is + +00:16:33.160 --> 00:16:33.380 +Syncthing links. Because I think you can set + +00:16:36.100 --> 00:16:36.480 +up Syncthing in such a way that you have the + +00:16:38.560 --> 00:16:38.900 +private networks that other people can't + +00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:40.740 +actually get access to. + +00:16:45.540 --> 00:16:45.700 +[Speaker 1]: I did not know that that was possible with + +00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:47.620 +Syncthing. I'll have to look into that. + +00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:49.200 +[Speaker 3]: At least I think it is anyway, + +00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:53.500 +because yeah, there's ways you can explicitly + +00:16:56.780 --> 00:16:57.280 +authorize devices. Yeah, + +00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:00.400 +right. I think you could actually set it up + +00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:03.960 +in such a way that you can have private stuff + +00:17:06.300 --> 00:17:06.480 +and links, and then that might be a way that + +00:17:10.119 --> 00:17:10.619 +you can get a completely distributed + +00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:13.220 +Zettelcast and with private notes. + +00:17:22.339 --> 00:17:22.599 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. Good idea. There's a question in the + +00:17:26.280 --> 00:17:26.380 +pad about DATRS, a Rust version of + +00:17:28.660 --> 00:17:29.160 +HyperDrive. I had not heard of that, + +00:17:30.260 --> 00:17:30.760 +so I'll have to look into that. + +00:17:33.040 --> 00:17:33.460 +If you had your druthers, + +00:17:34.820 --> 00:17:35.320 +what would make your work on hyperdrive.dl + +00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:40.740 +easier? It's been a lot of fun. + +00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:42.980 +I would love to have more user feedback. + +00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:46.160 +That would be my wish. + +00:17:50.500 --> 00:17:51.000 +I tried putting a git repo in HyperDrive. + +00:17:53.320 --> 00:17:53.500 +Does it work well? I don't think that would + +00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:57.100 +work well because, as I mentioned a moment a + +00:18:00.060 --> 00:18:00.220 +few moments ago, the data that you put into a + +00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:01.420 +hyperdrive is duplicated. + +00:18:06.300 --> 00:18:06.800 +So if you had the whole work tree in + +00:18:08.800 --> 00:18:08.960 +hyperdrive every time you made a change and + +00:18:12.340 --> 00:18:12.840 +saved it, it would be duplicated. + +00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:15.740 +If you had just a bare repository, + +00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:18.740 +I don't know, try it. + +00:18:21.140 --> 00:18:21.540 +[Speaker 3]: They're trying to solve the same problem, + +00:18:23.560 --> 00:18:24.060 +but 1 of the optimizations they have for + +00:18:25.520 --> 00:18:25.900 +being able to view a whole bunch of people's + +00:18:28.780 --> 00:18:28.980 +data is they made shallow clones a lot + +00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:35.140 +[Speaker 1]: Would you phrase that again, + +00:18:35.140 --> 00:18:35.640 +please? + +00:18:39.780 --> 00:18:40.280 +[Speaker 3]: easier. Right? So like Git and Hypercore, + +00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:43.220 +1 of the things they do is they allow you to + +00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:46.660 +have a whole history of every single change + +00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:52.380 +for a dataset Zettelkasten project. + +00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:56.600 +But 1 of the optimizations Hypercore did to + +00:19:02.020 --> 00:19:02.220 +make it more network web friendly is they + +00:19:04.540 --> 00:19:04.700 +made the shallow clones work a lot better and + +00:19:07.040 --> 00:19:07.240 +a lot... Yeah, they made that work a lot + +00:19:08.760 --> 00:19:09.060 +better so you don't have to download every + +00:19:11.340 --> 00:19:11.840 +single thing for every single project. + +00:19:14.860 --> 00:19:15.100 +And because they both are implementing the + +00:19:17.800 --> 00:19:18.040 +delta upgrades, I don't see how they could + +00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:19.500 +work really well together. + +00:19:21.780 --> 00:19:22.280 +At least from what it looked like to me. + +00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:26.140 +It can't hurt to experiment. + +00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:29.480 +[Speaker 1]: But yeah, I would agree with you. + +00:19:35.020 --> 00:19:35.180 +Is data transferred between nodes in the + +00:19:38.800 --> 00:19:39.060 +clear or encrypted? That's a good question. + +00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:42.140 +I don't know how it's encrypted. + +00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:47.940 +I don't, I wouldn't recommend sharing + +00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:53.900 +sensitive data with hyperdrive right now? + +00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:55.800 +I would recommend if you want to play with + +00:19:57.240 --> 00:19:57.520 +it, have it be something where you're + +00:20:00.660 --> 00:20:01.160 +expecting the data to be shared. + +00:20:03.460 --> 00:20:03.960 +Is there a searchable catalog? + +00:20:06.700 --> 00:20:06.980 +[Speaker 3]: It's also the data in transport versus data + +00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:08.800 +at rest. I'm pretty sure the data at rest + +00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:10.460 +would not be encrypted. + +00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:14.640 +Right. You can separate that into those 2 + +00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:15.140 +questions. + +00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:20.420 +[Speaker 1]: Right. Right. Is there a searchable catalog + +00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:23.320 +of hyper drives? So that's a thing, + +00:20:32.980 --> 00:20:33.480 +an idea that we've been a distributed trust + +00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:38.700 +network for discovering peers that are + +00:20:41.260 --> 00:20:41.760 +trusted for a particular topic. + +00:20:47.220 --> 00:20:47.440 +And we actually made a demo video of a + +00:20:51.760 --> 00:20:51.900 +previous prototype that's available on the + +00:20:54.580 --> 00:20:55.080 +Ashen hyperdrive that you can watch that + +00:20:58.980 --> 00:20:59.280 +shows the basic idea. But the idea is just + +00:21:02.980 --> 00:21:03.480 +that you would have a list of peers that you + +00:21:07.120 --> 00:21:07.620 +think are worth listening to or worth reading + +00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:09.880 +for a particular topic. + +00:21:11.980 --> 00:21:12.180 +And those peers would have peers that they + +00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:14.920 +think are worth listening to for that same + +00:21:16.600 --> 00:21:16.720 +topic. And so you would say, + +00:21:17.560 --> 00:21:17.900 +if I'm interested in Emacs, + +00:21:21.220 --> 00:21:21.660 +I want to see all the peers that I trust for + +00:21:23.700 --> 00:21:24.200 +the topic Emacs. And if, + +00:21:27.340 --> 00:21:27.640 +say, Adam Porter shows up in my list and Adam + +00:21:30.340 --> 00:21:30.840 +Porter trusts Jonas and Jonas trusts Pratt, + +00:21:33.420 --> 00:21:33.920 +I would be able to read hyperdrive + +00:21:36.760 --> 00:21:37.260 +information from all of those people by + +00:21:41.600 --> 00:21:41.800 +looking at the indirect relationships that I + +00:21:43.260 --> 00:21:43.760 +have by following the chain of relationships, + +00:21:44.760 --> 00:21:45.260 +kind of like a web of trust. + +00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:49.860 +And so it would also allow you to have a + +00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:53.980 +network of peers that you trust to block + +00:21:54.900 --> 00:21:55.400 +other people on your behalf. + +00:21:57.660 --> 00:21:58.160 +So it would be useful for subjective + +00:22:02.220 --> 00:22:02.520 +moderation where you can remove spam and bad + +00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:05.420 +actors from the people that you follow + +00:22:08.940 --> 00:22:09.440 +without having to delegate that powerful + +00:22:13.260 --> 00:22:13.380 +responsibility to some third party in a + +00:22:15.260 --> 00:22:15.720 +permanent way where that third party might + +00:22:23.040 --> 00:22:23.320 +abuse that power. So it allows you to share + +00:22:26.120 --> 00:22:26.260 +your list of trusted peers and your list of + +00:22:29.180 --> 00:22:29.280 +blocked peers with other people in a + +00:22:29.860 --> 00:22:30.360 +peer-to-peer way. + +00:22:38.080 --> 00:22:38.580 +[Speaker 3]: Have you ever looked at GNUnet? + +00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:40.700 +It kind of does some... + +00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:45.800 +It's trying to do something weird with the + +00:22:47.520 --> 00:22:47.600 +internet where it redesigns it from the + +00:22:51.040 --> 00:22:51.540 +ground up to be peer-to-peer, + +00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:54.180 +local first, or something like that. + +00:22:58.380 --> 00:22:58.880 +[Speaker 1]: I would like to know more about GNUnet. + +00:23:01.800 --> 00:23:01.960 +Yes. I have heard of it, + +00:23:03.620 --> 00:23:04.120 +but I haven't really researched it. + +00:23:09.060 --> 00:23:09.560 +If you edit a file on the hyperdrive, + +00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:12.900 +then edit the same file on the local mirror, + +00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:15.640 +how is the conflict handled when you sync the + +00:23:21.140 --> 00:23:21.280 +mirror again? So I think if I understand the + +00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:29.620 +question, the answer is that you can't edit + +00:23:32.280 --> 00:23:32.780 +the file in 2 different places, + +00:23:36.860 --> 00:23:37.360 +I think is the answer to the question. + +00:23:41.220 --> 00:23:41.720 +If you were to manually copy the private key + +00:23:44.040 --> 00:23:44.540 +from 1 machine onto another machine, + +00:23:51.820 --> 00:23:52.320 +then you could cause a conflict, + +00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:54.900 +like a merge conflict, + +00:23:58.100 --> 00:23:58.240 +but you would have to go out of your way to + +00:24:00.520 --> 00:24:00.900 +do that. And It's not handled. + +00:24:03.580 --> 00:24:03.820 +I think the Hypercore Hole Punch team has + +00:24:05.600 --> 00:24:05.860 +another project that they're working on that + +00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:07.700 +would, it's called AutoBase, + +00:24:09.560 --> 00:24:10.060 +that would merge those conflicts. + +00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:13.680 +But we're not using that right now. + +00:24:16.260 --> 00:24:16.760 +And I think it's in early development still. + +00:24:19.860 --> 00:24:20.360 +So there might be a solution in the future. + +00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:32.740 +[Speaker 3]: What's a surprising change of thoughts or + +00:24:36.900 --> 00:24:37.180 +what's the most interesting thing you weren't + +00:24:39.060 --> 00:24:39.560 +expecting to discover while developing this? + +00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:44.800 +Like change of thoughts on how you write or I + +00:24:45.020 --> 00:24:45.520 +don't know. + +00:24:59.060 --> 00:24:59.540 +[Speaker 1]: Well, I'm relatively new to Emacs and to Lisp + +00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:01.700 +and really to programming in general. + +00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:04.540 +And so it's been a fantastic learning + +00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:08.900 +experience. Adam, Alpha Papa, + +00:25:11.320 --> 00:25:11.520 +Adam and I have been doing a lot of pair + +00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:13.460 +programming sessions where we work together + +00:25:15.380 --> 00:25:15.880 +and I get to learn from him. + +00:25:19.540 --> 00:25:19.940 +And we've had meetings with Jonas and Prat + +00:25:23.560 --> 00:25:23.800 +and meetings with Mauve where it's a + +00:25:25.520 --> 00:25:26.020 +fantastic learning experience for me to + +00:25:30.660 --> 00:25:30.800 +discover how to build software in an + +00:25:32.820 --> 00:25:33.320 +efficient and intelligent way. + +00:25:40.580 --> 00:25:40.920 +It's a huge pleasure. If there are no more + +00:25:43.320 --> 00:25:43.820 +questions, I just wanted to encourage + +00:25:48.380 --> 00:25:48.620 +everyone to try it out and to let us know + +00:25:50.380 --> 00:25:50.560 +what you think. It would be really helpful to + +00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:55.320 +have some feedback from people who are using + +00:25:57.240 --> 00:25:57.600 +it in new and creative ways that we haven't + +00:25:57.600 --> 00:25:58.100 +anticipated. + +00:26:02.120 --> 00:26:02.300 +[Speaker 6]: Hi, I'd just like to say that I tried this + +00:26:02.980 --> 00:26:03.480 +new thing called hyperdrive.el + +00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:06.380 +today, and I think it's pretty cool. + +00:26:12.540 --> 00:26:12.800 +[Speaker 2]: Sorry, that was somebody else. + +00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:13.940 +Hey Joseph, how's it going? + +00:26:15.080 --> 00:26:15.580 +Oh, talk today. + +00:26:16.420 --> 00:26:16.580 +[Speaker 3]: Oh, thanks. Wonderful. + +00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:19.700 +[Speaker 1]: Who's that? Oh, hey. Well, + +00:26:34.060 --> 00:26:34.560 +I'm going to say goodbye. + +00:26:37.040 --> 00:26:37.540 +Thank you. And thank you for your questions, + +00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:39.840 +[Speaker 3]: I know that + +00:26:40.380 --> 00:26:40.880 +[Speaker 1]: PlasmaStrike. I've met you before. + +00:26:42.340 --> 00:26:42.720 +Appreciate your questions, + +00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:43.380 +your thoughts. + +00:26:50.380 --> 00:26:50.880 +[Speaker 2]: Oh, by the way, Joseph, + +00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:53.500 +we have our, our first, + +00:26:55.120 --> 00:26:55.480 +I don't know if our first new user, + +00:26:57.280 --> 00:26:57.780 +but we have the first link being shared, + +00:27:01.160 --> 00:27:01.480 +to hyperdrive file in the chat and I loaded + +00:27:03.080 --> 00:27:03.240 +it and it works. And it's funny too. + +00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:04.000 +It's worth looking at. + +00:27:09.140 --> 00:27:09.640 +So. Oh, I think it's frozen. + +00:27:11.580 --> 00:27:12.080 +I don't know if anybody can hear me. + +00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:13.220 +[Speaker 3]: I can. + +00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:15.620 +[Speaker 2]: Okay, cool. The browser is frozen. + +00:27:19.020 --> 00:27:19.520 +It's it's not, okay. Just unfroze. + +00:27:21.740 --> 00:27:22.100 +Anyway. All right. Well, + +00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:24.440 +By the way, I enjoyed your talks about + +00:27:26.260 --> 00:27:26.480 +hyperbole. I'm going to rewatch those later + +00:27:28.040 --> 00:27:28.260 +when I get a chance. It was nice to meet you, + +00:27:31.100 --> 00:27:31.240 +too. Bob is a really great guy to work with. + +00:27:38.800 --> 00:27:39.300 +[Speaker 3]: Definitely a lot of interesting people. + +00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:40.700 +[Speaker 2]: I owe him 1. Yes, sir. + +00:27:41.580 --> 00:27:41.760 +All right, you have a good day, + +00:27:45.140 --> 00:27:45.640 +[Speaker 3]: Will do, I like the insistence on local + +00:27:48.740 --> 00:27:48.940 +first. Feels like it's a good dovetail with + +00:27:49.540 --> 00:27:50.040 +the hyper core + +00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:51.680 +[Speaker 2]: enjoy the conference. Yeah, + +00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:55.120 +yeah, I think there's a lot of a lot of + +00:27:57.980 --> 00:27:58.180 +interesting possibilities to build on this we + +00:28:01.340 --> 00:28:01.600 +have some plans that we Will get to you later + +00:28:05.600 --> 00:28:05.820 +this well in the coming year And we'll see + +00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:07.900 +where the hyperdrive people, + +00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:10.040 +you know, upstream how they develop it as + +00:28:14.340 --> 00:28:14.840 +well and yeah, so exciting times. diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-llm--llm-clients-in-emacs-functionality-and-standardization--andrew-hyatt--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-llm--llm-clients-in-emacs-functionality-and-standardization--andrew-hyatt--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..d48cc06d --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-llm--llm-clients-in-emacs-functionality-and-standardization--andrew-hyatt--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,1910 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:13.099 --> 00:00:13.599 +[Speaker 0]: Okay. Hello, everyone. + +00:00:16.560 --> 00:00:17.060 +I think this is the start of the Q&A session. + +00:00:25.119 --> 00:00:25.599 +So people can just ask me questions here. + +00:00:28.259 --> 00:00:28.380 +Or I think maybe these questions are going to + +00:00:30.560 --> 00:00:30.980 +be read by someone. Yes, + +00:00:34.680 --> 00:00:35.060 +thank you. Should I start doing that? + +00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:39.400 +I also know that there's questions in the + +00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:41.480 +either pad room, so I could start out + +00:00:42.280 --> 00:00:42.780 +answering those as well. + +00:00:45.020 --> 00:00:45.300 +[Speaker 1]: Right, sure. Whichever way you prefer. + +00:00:46.860 --> 00:00:47.220 +If you prefer to read the questions yourself, + +00:00:48.940 --> 00:00:49.080 +by all means, or if you would prefer me to + +00:00:50.080 --> 00:00:50.280 +read them to you, that also works. + +00:00:50.580 --> 00:00:50.920 +[Speaker 2]: Oh, I see. + +00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:51.760 +[Speaker 0]: Why don't you read them to me? + +00:00:53.260 --> 00:00:53.760 +I think it'll just be more interesting then. + +00:00:56.820 --> 00:00:57.160 +[Speaker 1]: Sure. OK, let's see. The first question is, + +00:00:58.360 --> 00:00:58.860 +what is your use case for embedding, + +00:01:00.060 --> 00:01:00.560 +mainly for searching? + +00:01:06.180 --> 00:01:06.340 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I mean, I think the use case really is + +00:01:12.100 --> 00:01:12.320 +searching. And I think it is very useful when + +00:01:15.060 --> 00:01:15.320 +you're searching for something in a vague + +00:01:18.280 --> 00:01:18.780 +way. Just to give you an example, + +00:01:23.860 --> 00:01:24.360 +I have a note system called EKG. + +00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:26.260 +I type all my notes on it. + +00:01:28.620 --> 00:01:29.120 +You can find it on GitHub and Melba. + +00:01:34.140 --> 00:01:34.400 +But I wrote something at some point a year + +00:01:35.840 --> 00:01:36.020 +ago or something. I wrote something that I + +00:01:36.600 --> 00:01:36.980 +just vaguely remembered. + +00:01:38.800 --> 00:01:38.940 +Oh, this was about a certain kind of + +00:01:41.580 --> 00:01:41.760 +communication. I wanted communicating to + +00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:43.479 +large audiences. There's some interesting tip + +00:01:44.700 --> 00:01:45.060 +that I wrote down that was really cool. + +00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:50.080 +And I was like, well, I need to find it. + +00:01:52.260 --> 00:01:52.640 +So I did an embedding search for something + +00:01:55.479 --> 00:01:55.979 +like, you know, tips for communicating. + +00:01:58.979 --> 00:01:59.100 +Like those words may not have been in what I + +00:02:00.020 --> 00:02:00.520 +was trying to find at all, + +00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:03.180 +But it was able to find it. + +00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:06.260 +And that is something that's very hard to do + +00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:07.360 +in other ways. Like, you know, + +00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:08.720 +if you had to do this with normal search, + +00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:09.660 +you have to do synonyms. + +00:02:10.940 --> 00:02:11.200 +And like maybe those synonyms wouldn't cover + +00:02:11.960 --> 00:02:12.340 +it. Like with embedding, + +00:02:13.940 --> 00:02:14.160 +you can basically get at like the vague + +00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:15.460 +sentiment. You're like, + +00:02:17.320 --> 00:02:17.560 +you know, you're, you know, + +00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:19.700 +you can really query on like what things are + +00:02:21.760 --> 00:02:22.260 +about as opposed to what words they have. + +00:02:25.600 --> 00:02:26.100 +Also, it's super good for similarity search. + +00:02:27.720 --> 00:02:27.900 +So you could say, look, + +00:02:30.040 --> 00:02:30.240 +I have a bunch of things that are encoded + +00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:31.900 +with embeddings that I want to show. + +00:02:34.120 --> 00:02:34.280 +For example, you can make an embedding for + +00:02:35.220 --> 00:02:35.380 +every buffer. You'd be like, + +00:02:37.060 --> 00:02:37.200 +well, show me buffers that are similar to + +00:02:38.740 --> 00:02:38.980 +this buffer. That doesn't sound super useful, + +00:02:40.440 --> 00:02:40.940 +but this is the kind of thing you could do. + +00:02:45.300 --> 00:02:45.480 +And so if you have a bunch of notes or + +00:02:46.720 --> 00:02:46.920 +something else that you want to search on, + +00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:48.740 +you'd be like, what's similar to this buffer? + +00:02:51.500 --> 00:02:51.760 +Or what notes are similar to each other? + +00:02:53.040 --> 00:02:53.540 +What buffers are similar to each other? + +00:02:55.380 --> 00:02:55.880 +It's super good for this sort of thing. + +00:03:00.780 --> 00:03:01.280 +And it's also good for this kind of retrieval + +00:03:03.080 --> 00:03:03.520 +augmented generation, where you sort of, + +00:03:05.080 --> 00:03:05.280 +you retrieve things and the purpose is not + +00:03:06.600 --> 00:03:06.880 +for you to see them, but then you pass that + +00:03:12.040 --> 00:03:12.180 +to the LLM. And then it's able to be a little + +00:03:14.340 --> 00:03:14.800 +bit more accurate because it has the actual + +00:03:15.760 --> 00:03:16.260 +text that you're trying to, + +00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:19.180 +that is relevant, and it can cite from and + +00:03:20.720 --> 00:03:20.820 +things like that. And then it could give you + +00:03:22.260 --> 00:03:22.660 +a much better answer that's kind of, + +00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:25.680 +you know, not just from its own little neural + +00:03:26.320 --> 00:03:26.820 +nets and memory. + +00:03:31.920 --> 00:03:32.120 +[Speaker 1]: Cool, thanks. Let's see, + +00:03:35.740 --> 00:03:36.100 +next question. What do you think about embed + +00:03:40.160 --> 00:03:40.660 +Emacs manual versus GPT's Emacs manual? + +00:03:45.480 --> 00:03:45.660 +[Speaker 0]: I'm not exactly sure what this question is + +00:03:46.980 --> 00:03:47.480 +trying to say. So I mean, + +00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:51.140 +if someone wrote that and wants to expand on + +00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:55.320 +it a little bit, but I think that maybe + +00:03:58.420 --> 00:03:58.920 +you're saying like you could embed, + +00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:00.780 +have embeddings for like various, + +00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:02.720 +like every paragraph or something of the + +00:04:04.540 --> 00:04:04.680 +Emacs manual. But it's also the case that + +00:04:06.500 --> 00:04:07.000 +like GPT is already for sure already read it, + +00:04:09.760 --> 00:04:09.960 +right? And so you could ask questions that + +00:04:13.460 --> 00:04:13.780 +are about Emacs and our ELISP or whatever + +00:04:15.200 --> 00:04:15.700 +part of the manual you want to find. + +00:04:19.760 --> 00:04:20.240 +And it will do a reasonably good job, + +00:04:22.280 --> 00:04:22.780 +especially the better models will do a + +00:04:24.620 --> 00:04:24.940 +reasonably good job of saying you something + +00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:26.540 +that is vaguely accurate. + +00:04:29.440 --> 00:04:29.860 +But if you do this retrieval augmented + +00:04:30.580 --> 00:04:31.080 +generation with embeddings, + +00:04:32.640 --> 00:04:33.140 +you can get something that is very accurate. + +00:04:36.700 --> 00:04:36.960 +At least I think. I haven't tried it, + +00:04:38.760 --> 00:04:39.020 +but this is a technique that works in other + +00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:43.260 +similar cases. So you can also imagine like, + +00:04:44.320 --> 00:04:44.500 +oh, this whole thing I said, + +00:04:47.860 --> 00:04:48.120 +like, oh, you can query for vague things and + +00:04:49.140 --> 00:04:49.600 +get parts of the manual, + +00:04:52.680 --> 00:04:53.000 +perhaps. I'm not exactly sure if that would + +00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:55.520 +be useful, but maybe. Usually when I'm + +00:04:57.040 --> 00:04:57.180 +looking things up in the Emacs manual or + +00:04:58.320 --> 00:04:58.780 +Elist manual, I have something extremely + +00:05:00.020 --> 00:05:00.300 +specific and I kind of know where to look. + +00:05:02.960 --> 00:05:03.080 +But having other ways to get at this + +00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:04.500 +information is always good. + +00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:10.740 +[Speaker 1]: Right. Looks like they added a clarification + +00:05:12.280 --> 00:05:12.720 +if you would like to read that yourself, + +00:05:14.180 --> 00:05:14.680 +or would you like me to read it for you? + +00:05:17.640 --> 00:05:18.140 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah. Yes, OK. It says, + +00:05:20.460 --> 00:05:20.740 +I've never tried. Yeah, + +00:05:21.500 --> 00:05:21.820 +the question is like OK, + +00:05:23.100 --> 00:05:23.240 +there is a difference between the kind of + +00:05:23.860 --> 00:05:24.360 +thing as I just described. + +00:05:26.200 --> 00:05:26.600 +I have not tried the difference with the EMAX + +00:05:31.560 --> 00:05:31.980 +manual itself. It'd be interesting to see + +00:05:33.700 --> 00:05:33.960 +what this is, but I would expect like these + +00:05:35.140 --> 00:05:35.600 +techniques, the retrieval augmented + +00:05:38.840 --> 00:05:39.340 +generation is generally pretty good. + +00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:41.740 +And I suspect it would, + +00:05:43.580 --> 00:05:43.780 +I would bet money on the fact that it's gonna + +00:05:45.820 --> 00:05:46.240 +give you, you know, better results than just, + +00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:48.360 +you know, doing a free form query without any + +00:05:49.440 --> 00:05:49.940 +retrieval augmented generation. + +00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:54.640 +[Speaker 1]: Cool. Let's see. Next question. + +00:05:56.380 --> 00:05:56.880 +When deferring commit messages to an LLM, + +00:05:59.700 --> 00:05:59.920 +what, if anything, do you find you might have + +00:06:02.940 --> 00:06:03.440 +[Speaker 0]: lost? Yeah, it's a good question. + +00:06:06.060 --> 00:06:06.560 +When deferring anything to a computer, + +00:06:08.860 --> 00:06:09.360 +like, you know, I used to have to remember + +00:06:11.200 --> 00:06:11.700 +how to get places, and now, + +00:06:14.540 --> 00:06:15.040 +you know, on the few occasions which I drive, + +00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:16.720 +like, It could just tell me how to get + +00:06:21.960 --> 00:06:22.280 +places. So similar things could occur here + +00:06:24.960 --> 00:06:25.460 +where like, okay, I'm just leaving the LLM. + +00:06:27.380 --> 00:06:27.680 +And so I'm kind of missing out on some + +00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:30.220 +opportunity to think coherently about a + +00:06:32.440 --> 00:06:32.680 +particular commit. Particular commits are + +00:06:36.140 --> 00:06:36.540 +kind of low level. I don't think it's usually + +00:06:39.340 --> 00:06:39.840 +relatively obvious and what they're doing. + +00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:42.800 +And in this case, I think there's not much + +00:06:44.220 --> 00:06:44.540 +loss. But for sure, in other cases, + +00:06:46.400 --> 00:06:46.900 +if you're starting to get into situations + +00:06:48.640 --> 00:06:48.800 +where it's writing your emails and all this + +00:06:52.920 --> 00:06:53.300 +stuff. First of all, it's in 1 sense, + +00:06:55.580 --> 00:06:56.040 +I'm not sure you might be losing something by + +00:06:57.520 --> 00:06:57.780 +delegating things. On the other hand, + +00:06:59.120 --> 00:06:59.280 +you know, when you're interacting with these + +00:07:01.280 --> 00:07:01.560 +LLMs, you have to be extremely specific about + +00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:03.240 +what you want, or else it's just not going to + +00:07:07.540 --> 00:07:07.680 +do a good job. And that might actually be a + +00:07:09.440 --> 00:07:09.860 +good thing. So the question might be that + +00:07:11.820 --> 00:07:12.240 +maybe you might gain things by using an LLM + +00:07:13.860 --> 00:07:14.060 +to do your work. It might not actually even + +00:07:15.060 --> 00:07:15.400 +save you that much time, + +00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:18.640 +at least initially, because you have to kind + +00:07:20.460 --> 00:07:20.660 +of practice again super specific about what + +00:07:22.740 --> 00:07:22.900 +you want to get out of the output it's going + +00:07:26.940 --> 00:07:26.980 +to give you so like oh I'm you know maybe you + +00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:29.820 +know you're on the emacs devel mailing list + +00:07:31.780 --> 00:07:31.980 +and you're like okay write this email about + +00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:34.140 +this about this And here's what I want to + +00:07:35.370 --> 00:07:35.460 +say. And here's the kind of tone I want to + +00:07:36.020 --> 00:07:36.420 +use. And here's the like, + +00:07:37.660 --> 00:07:38.160 +oh, you might want to specify like everything + +00:07:39.620 --> 00:07:40.120 +that you kind of want to get into this. + +00:07:42.180 --> 00:07:42.680 +Usually it's easier just to write the email. + +00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:46.100 +But I think that practice of kind of + +00:07:48.080 --> 00:07:48.420 +understanding what you want is not something + +00:07:52.680 --> 00:07:53.180 +you normally do. And I think it's going to be + +00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:56.480 +an interesting exercise that will help people + +00:07:57.280 --> 00:07:57.540 +understand. That said, + +00:07:58.860 --> 00:07:59.020 +I haven't done that much of that, + +00:07:59.900 --> 00:08:00.040 +so I can't say, oh, yeah, + +00:08:01.080 --> 00:08:01.440 +I've done this and it works for me. + +00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:03.120 +Maybe. I think it's an interesting thing to + +00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:03.620 +explore. + +00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:08.220 +[Speaker 1]: Sure. Thanks. Let's see. + +00:08:10.840 --> 00:08:11.140 +Let's see. Can you share your font settings + +00:08:13.440 --> 00:08:13.740 +in your Emacs config? Those are some nice + +00:08:14.200 --> 00:08:14.700 +fonts for reading. + +00:08:18.900 --> 00:08:19.200 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I think I was using Menlo at the time. + +00:08:20.840 --> 00:08:20.980 +Unfortunately, I don't save those kinds of + +00:08:21.940 --> 00:08:22.200 +things, like a history of this. + +00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:24.500 +I've kind of switched now to, + +00:08:27.340 --> 00:08:27.540 +what was that? I think I wrote it down in + +00:08:29.440 --> 00:08:29.940 +the, I switched to MunaSpace, + +00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:32.420 +which just came out like a week or 2 ago, + +00:08:33.340 --> 00:08:33.840 +and is also pretty cool. + +00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:35.940 +So I think it's Menlo. + +00:08:37.380 --> 00:08:37.760 +The internal question, + +00:08:38.400 --> 00:08:38.900 +what font are you using? + +00:08:42.020 --> 00:08:42.340 +[Speaker 1]: Indeed, yeah. It looks like someone guessed + +00:08:43.780 --> 00:08:44.280 +as well that it might be Menlo. + +00:08:47.680 --> 00:08:48.040 +OK, Cool. Yeah, next question. + +00:08:48.900 --> 00:08:49.400 +In terms of standardization, + +00:08:53.260 --> 00:08:53.520 +do you see a need for the medium to large + +00:08:55.840 --> 00:08:56.160 +scale effort needed? And then they also + +00:08:56.960 --> 00:08:57.460 +elaborate about it. + +00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:04.100 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I mean, I do think, + +00:09:06.040 --> 00:09:06.300 +I don't know if it's large scale, + +00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:08.500 +but at least it's probably medium scale. + +00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:10.520 +There's a lot of things that are missing that + +00:09:12.260 --> 00:09:12.400 +we don't have right now in emacs when you're + +00:09:13.660 --> 00:09:14.160 +dealing with LLMs. 1 is, + +00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:18.420 +a prompting system. And by that, + +00:09:21.820 --> 00:09:22.020 +I mean, you know, prompts are just like big + +00:09:24.520 --> 00:09:24.720 +blocks of text, but there's also senses that + +00:09:28.260 --> 00:09:28.420 +like prompts need to be composable and you + +00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:30.660 +need to be able to iterate on parts of the + +00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:37.100 +prompt. And so it's also customizable. + +00:09:38.940 --> 00:09:39.060 +Users might want to customize it. + +00:09:41.260 --> 00:09:41.360 +On the other hand, it's not super easy to + +00:09:43.820 --> 00:09:44.320 +write the prompt. So you want really good + +00:09:47.900 --> 00:09:48.040 +defaults. So the whole prompt system is kind + +00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:51.460 +of complicated. That needs to be kind of + +00:09:52.580 --> 00:09:52.760 +standardized, because I don't think there's + +00:09:54.380 --> 00:09:54.720 +any tools for doing something like that right + +00:09:58.380 --> 00:09:58.880 +now. I personally use my system, + +00:10:00.220 --> 00:10:00.600 +my note system for EKG. + +00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:01.920 +I don't think that's appropriate for + +00:10:02.800 --> 00:10:03.120 +everyone, but it does, + +00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:04.640 +I did write it to have some of these + +00:10:06.540 --> 00:10:06.760 +capabilities of composability that I think + +00:10:08.360 --> 00:10:08.860 +are useful for a prompt generation. + +00:10:11.940 --> 00:10:12.280 +It'd be nice to have a system like that, + +00:10:15.660 --> 00:10:16.160 +but for general use. I don't, + +00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:18.060 +this is something I've been meaning to think + +00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:19.000 +about, like how to do it, + +00:10:19.760 --> 00:10:19.920 +but like this, you know, + +00:10:21.260 --> 00:10:21.660 +if someone's interested in getting this area, + +00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:26.420 +like, I would love to chat about that or, + +00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:27.980 +you know, I think there's a lot of + +00:10:31.020 --> 00:10:31.260 +interesting ideas that we could have to have + +00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:34.540 +a system that allows us to make progress + +00:10:38.860 --> 00:10:39.360 +here. And also, I think there's more to + +00:10:40.520 --> 00:10:40.900 +standardization to be done. + +00:10:42.820 --> 00:10:43.140 +1 thing I'd also like to see that we haven't + +00:10:47.020 --> 00:10:47.220 +done yet is a system for standardizing on + +00:10:48.060 --> 00:10:48.560 +getting structured output. + +00:10:49.640 --> 00:10:50.140 +This is gonna be super useful. + +00:10:52.280 --> 00:10:52.780 +I have this for open AIs API, + +00:10:53.560 --> 00:10:54.060 +cause they support it. + +00:10:55.940 --> 00:10:56.040 +And it's really nice, cause then you can + +00:10:57.440 --> 00:10:57.660 +write elist functions that like, + +00:10:59.380 --> 00:10:59.880 +okay, I'm going to call the LLM. + +00:11:00.760 --> 00:11:01.000 +I'm gonna get structured output. + +00:11:02.040 --> 00:11:02.160 +I know what that structure is going to be. + +00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:03.680 +It's not going to be just a big block of + +00:11:05.660 --> 00:11:06.040 +text. I could turn it into a, + +00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:07.480 +you know, a P list or something. + +00:11:09.280 --> 00:11:09.480 +And then I could get the values out of that P + +00:11:11.880 --> 00:11:12.260 +list. And I know that way I could do, + +00:11:14.220 --> 00:11:14.720 +I could write actual apps that are, + +00:11:18.300 --> 00:11:18.720 +you know, very, very sort of, + +00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:20.680 +you know, useful for very specific purposes + +00:11:21.900 --> 00:11:22.400 +and not just for text generation. + +00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:24.320 +And I think that's 1 of the most important + +00:11:27.100 --> 00:11:27.540 +things we want to do. And I have some ideas + +00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:29.160 +about how to do it. I just haven't pursued + +00:11:31.640 --> 00:11:32.040 +those yet. But if other people have ideas, + +00:11:34.340 --> 00:11:34.540 +I think this would be really interesting to + +00:11:35.520 --> 00:11:36.020 +add to the LLM package. + +00:11:37.260 --> 00:11:37.760 +So contact me there. + +00:11:42.100 --> 00:11:42.600 +[Speaker 1]: Awesome. Quick note before we continue. + +00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:44.540 +So I'm not sure how long we're going to be on + +00:11:46.040 --> 00:11:46.280 +stream for, because this is the last talk + +00:11:48.640 --> 00:11:49.120 +before the break. If we are on the stream + +00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:50.200 +long-term, then great. + +00:11:51.820 --> 00:11:52.300 +But if not, folks are welcome to continue + +00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:53.680 +writing questions on the pad. + +00:11:55.140 --> 00:11:55.280 +And hopefully, Andrew will get to them at + +00:11:58.020 --> 00:11:58.280 +some point. Or if Andrew maybe has some extra + +00:11:59.960 --> 00:12:00.140 +time available and wants to stay on + +00:12:01.640 --> 00:12:01.920 +BigBlueButton here, then folks are also + +00:12:03.940 --> 00:12:04.340 +welcome to join here and chat with Andrew + +00:12:08.940 --> 00:12:09.240 +directly as well. Okay, + +00:12:10.740 --> 00:12:10.900 +awesome. So yeah, the next question is, + +00:12:12.040 --> 00:12:12.400 +what are your thoughts on the carbon + +00:12:14.060 --> 00:12:14.560 +footprint of LLM usage? + +00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:17.700 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, it's a really interesting question. + +00:12:23.180 --> 00:12:23.360 +I don't have any particular knowledge or + +00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:25.580 +opinions about that. It's something I think + +00:12:26.980 --> 00:12:27.180 +we should all be educating ourselves more + +00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:32.380 +about. It is really, I mean, + +00:12:33.040 --> 00:12:33.220 +there's 2 parts of this, + +00:12:35.380 --> 00:12:35.500 +right? They take a, there's a huge amount of + +00:12:37.160 --> 00:12:37.360 +carbon footprint involved in training these + +00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:39.220 +things. Then running them is relatively + +00:12:42.540 --> 00:12:42.880 +lightweight. So the question is not + +00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:44.920 +necessarily like once it's trained, + +00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:46.640 +like I don't feel like it's a big deal to + +00:12:48.280 --> 00:12:48.560 +keep using it, but like training these things + +00:12:50.680 --> 00:12:51.180 +is kind of like the big carbon cost of it. + +00:12:53.680 --> 00:12:54.160 +But like right now, the way everything's + +00:12:56.040 --> 00:12:56.260 +going, like every, you know, + +00:12:59.060 --> 00:12:59.560 +all, you know, the top 5 or 6 tech companies + +00:13:00.900 --> 00:13:01.400 +are all training their LLMs, + +00:13:03.580 --> 00:13:03.740 +and this is all costing a giant amount of + +00:13:06.820 --> 00:13:07.060 +carbon probably. On the other hand these same + +00:13:08.560 --> 00:13:08.680 +companies are pretty good about using the + +00:13:10.260 --> 00:13:10.440 +least amount of carbon necessary you know + +00:13:12.340 --> 00:13:12.740 +they have their own their tricks for doing + +00:13:13.260 --> 00:13:13.760 +things very efficiently. + +00:13:22.100 --> 00:13:22.360 +[Speaker 1]: Cool next question, LLMs are slow and + +00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:24.340 +responding. Do you think Emacs should provide + +00:13:26.680 --> 00:13:27.180 +more async primitives to keep it responsive? + +00:13:29.380 --> 00:13:29.880 +Like the URL retrieve is quite bad at + +00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:31.760 +building API clients with it. + +00:13:31.920 --> 00:13:32.420 +Building API clients with it? + +00:13:36.400 --> 00:13:36.900 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah. Well, OK, so first of all, + +00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:40.740 +people should be using the LLM client. + +00:13:48.740 --> 00:13:48.900 +And So right now, 1 thing I should have + +00:13:50.220 --> 00:13:50.440 +mentioned at the top is that there are new + +00:13:52.500 --> 00:13:52.640 +packages that I recorded this talk that you + +00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:54.920 +just saw several months ago. + +00:13:57.780 --> 00:13:58.180 +And so like Elama, there's this package Elama + +00:13:59.700 --> 00:14:00.080 +that came out that is using the LM package. + +00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:02.680 +And so for example, it doesn't need to worry + +00:14:05.140 --> 00:14:05.580 +about this sort of thing because it just uses + +00:14:07.560 --> 00:14:07.920 +LLM and package and the LLM package worries + +00:14:11.680 --> 00:14:11.820 +about this. And while I'm on the subject of + +00:14:12.540 --> 00:14:12.720 +things I forgot to mention, + +00:14:15.140 --> 00:14:15.340 +I also should just mention very quickly that + +00:14:17.020 --> 00:14:17.520 +there is now an open source model, + +00:14:21.680 --> 00:14:21.960 +Mistral. And so that's kind of this new thing + +00:14:23.860 --> 00:14:24.240 +on the scene that happened after I recorded + +00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:26.420 +my talk. And I think it's super important to + +00:14:28.660 --> 00:14:28.820 +the community and important that we have the + +00:14:30.620 --> 00:14:31.120 +opportunity to use that if we want to. + +00:14:33.160 --> 00:14:33.660 +Okay, but to answer the actual question, + +00:14:37.660 --> 00:14:38.100 +there has been some talk about the problems + +00:14:40.680 --> 00:14:40.840 +with URL retrieve in the URL package in + +00:14:42.200 --> 00:14:42.700 +general in EmacsDevEl. + +00:14:46.760 --> 00:14:47.080 +It's not great. I would like to have better + +00:14:50.900 --> 00:14:51.040 +primitives. And I've asked the author of + +00:14:54.060 --> 00:14:54.560 +Please PLZ to kind of provide some necessary + +00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:56.620 +callbacks. I think that's a great library. + +00:15:00.280 --> 00:15:00.360 +And I'd like to see that kind of like, + +00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:01.680 +It's nice that we have options, + +00:15:03.340 --> 00:15:03.520 +and that is an option that uses curl on the + +00:15:05.140 --> 00:15:05.640 +back end, and that has some benefits. + +00:15:09.060 --> 00:15:09.280 +So there's this big debate about whether we + +00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:11.100 +should have primitives or just use curl. + +00:15:13.340 --> 00:15:13.420 +I'm not exactly sure what the right call is, + +00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:15.820 +but there has been discussions about this. + +00:15:19.540 --> 00:15:20.040 +[Speaker 1]: Excellent. And someone commented that GPTEL + +00:15:21.820 --> 00:15:22.200 +is async and apparently very good at tracking + +00:15:22.300 --> 00:15:22.800 +the point. + +00:15:26.680 --> 00:15:27.180 +[Speaker 0]: Yes, yes, GPTEL has similar functionalities + +00:15:29.800 --> 00:15:30.040 +to LLM, although I believe it's going to move + +00:15:33.040 --> 00:15:33.540 +to LLM itself sometime soon. + +00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:39.860 +[Speaker 1]: Next question, speaking of which, + +00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:42.560 +anyone trained or fine-tuned or prompted a + +00:15:44.680 --> 00:15:44.760 +model with their org data yet and applied it + +00:15:46.560 --> 00:15:47.040 +to interesting use cases like planning, + +00:15:47.920 --> 00:15:48.340 +scheduling, et cetera, + +00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:49.820 +and maybe care to comment? + +00:15:54.620 --> 00:15:55.120 +[Speaker 0]: I don't know anyone who is doing that. + +00:15:55.860 --> 00:15:56.360 +I think it is interesting. + +00:15:57.800 --> 00:15:58.300 +Like this is what I kind of mentioned at the + +00:16:01.060 --> 00:16:01.300 +very end of the talk. There is a lot of stuff + +00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:02.540 +there like you could you know if you + +00:16:04.760 --> 00:16:04.920 +especially mean an LLM can kind of work as + +00:16:07.940 --> 00:16:08.160 +sort of like a secretary kind of person that + +00:16:12.180 --> 00:16:12.440 +could help you prioritize Still it's a + +00:16:14.760 --> 00:16:14.920 +slightly unclear how what the best way to use + +00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:16.720 +it is So I think there's more of a question + +00:16:18.340 --> 00:16:18.480 +for the community about like what people have + +00:16:21.140 --> 00:16:21.320 +been trying. I see someone has mentioned that + +00:16:23.400 --> 00:16:23.900 +they are using it for weekly review. + +00:16:26.940 --> 00:16:27.180 +And it's kind of nice to like, + +00:16:29.060 --> 00:16:29.380 +maybe you could read your agenda or maybe + +00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:30.780 +this for like weekly review. + +00:16:32.040 --> 00:16:32.240 +It could like read all the stuff you've done + +00:16:33.340 --> 00:16:33.480 +and ask you questions about it. + +00:16:35.020 --> 00:16:35.280 +And like, what should happen next? + +00:16:36.520 --> 00:16:36.780 +Or like, is this going to cause a problem? + +00:16:39.060 --> 00:16:39.280 +Like, I can, I can understand if that could + +00:16:40.860 --> 00:16:41.180 +happen? That's like, that's kind of nice. + +00:16:43.660 --> 00:16:44.160 +And this kind of people have had good success + +00:16:48.540 --> 00:16:48.760 +out of using these LLMs to bounce ideas off + +00:16:49.920 --> 00:16:50.420 +of are, you know, for, + +00:16:52.680 --> 00:16:52.800 +you know, I've seen people say that like they + +00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:55.600 +want, they use it for reading and they kind + +00:16:58.520 --> 00:16:58.740 +of dialogue with the LM to kind of like do + +00:16:59.500 --> 00:17:00.000 +sort of active reading. + +00:17:02.500 --> 00:17:02.860 +So you can imagine doing something similar + +00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:04.740 +with your tasks where it's sort of you're + +00:17:06.560 --> 00:17:06.760 +engaged in dialogue about like planning your + +00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:09.000 +tax with some with a alum that could kind of + +00:17:10.800 --> 00:17:11.180 +understand what those are and ask you some + +00:17:13.780 --> 00:17:13.940 +questions I think it. You know, + +00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:17.040 +if it'd be nice. So, the problem is like + +00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:18.980 +there's no great way to share all this stuff. + +00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:21.220 +I guess if you have something like this, + +00:17:23.300 --> 00:17:23.720 +put it on Reddit. If you don't have Reddit, + +00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:24.880 +I don't know what to do. + +00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:26.500 +I would say put it somewhere. + +00:17:28.840 --> 00:17:29.020 +At the very least, I could maybe open up like + +00:17:31.320 --> 00:17:31.820 +an LLM discussion session on the LLM package + +00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:34.500 +GitHub, But not everyone likes to use GitHub. + +00:17:36.100 --> 00:17:36.180 +I don't know. It'd be nice if there's a + +00:17:38.940 --> 00:17:39.060 +mailing list or IRC chat for this sort of + +00:17:40.840 --> 00:17:41.340 +thing. But there isn't at the moment. + +00:17:46.560 --> 00:17:46.720 +[Speaker 1]: All right. Let's see. I think that's the end + +00:17:48.080 --> 00:17:48.580 +of the questions on the pad so far. + +00:17:51.020 --> 00:17:51.180 +There was also some discussion or some + +00:17:52.260 --> 00:17:52.760 +chatter, I believe, on IRC. + +00:17:54.560 --> 00:17:54.820 +I'm not sure. Andrew, are you on IRC right + +00:18:00.060 --> 00:18:00.260 +[Speaker 0]: I am, but I don't think I'm on any place that + +00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:01.640 +has the chatter. So if there's chatter, + +00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:02.940 +then I'm not seeing it. + +00:18:04.600 --> 00:18:05.100 +[Speaker 1]: now? Okay. Yeah, it was in the emacsconf-dev + +00:18:06.760 --> 00:18:07.260 +channel. + +00:18:09.600 --> 00:18:10.100 +[Speaker 0]: Okay, let me see if I can. + +00:18:25.600 --> 00:18:25.840 +Oh, yes. I mean, I could see the channel, + +00:18:27.520 --> 00:18:27.840 +but I missed whatever came before. + +00:18:29.340 --> 00:18:29.480 +So if there's anything you want to kind of + +00:18:30.840 --> 00:18:31.340 +call out, I can try to answer it here. + +00:18:35.320 --> 00:18:35.640 +[Speaker 1]: OK, cool. I believe at least 2 other folks + +00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:38.000 +who are participating in the discussion there + +00:18:40.120 --> 00:18:40.620 +who have also joined here on BigBlueButton, + +00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:42.940 +Codin Quark and AeonTurn92. + +00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:47.480 +So you folks, if Andrew is still available + +00:18:50.460 --> 00:18:50.640 +and has time, you're welcome to chat here and + +00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:53.320 +ask questions or discuss here as well. + +00:18:55.580 --> 00:18:55.840 +[Speaker 0]: 1 Thank you. Thank you for your help, + +00:18:57.740 --> 00:18:58.080 +and thank you for reading all the questions. + +00:18:59.700 --> 00:18:59.820 +[Speaker 1]: AUDIENCE 2 Cheers, and thanks to you for a + +00:19:00.540 --> 00:19:01.040 +great talk and the discussion. + +00:19:01.880 --> 00:19:02.380 +[Speaker 0]: AUDIENCE AUDIENCE 1 Thank you. + +00:19:03.140 --> 00:19:03.640 +[Speaker 1]: AUDIENCE 2 Cheers. + +00:19:07.900 --> 00:19:08.040 +[Speaker 0]: So I'll just, I will wait here and see if + +00:19:08.320 --> 00:19:08.760 +there's any questions. + +00:19:10.760 --> 00:19:11.260 +If not, I will log off after a few minutes. + +00:19:15.900 --> 00:19:16.080 +[Speaker 2]: Well, I guess since we were mentioned that + +00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:18.980 +there was a small chat about local alarms. + +00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:23.000 +Because chat dpt is nice, + +00:19:25.600 --> 00:19:26.100 +no, but privacy concerns, + +00:19:27.380 --> 00:19:27.880 +and it's not free and stuff. + +00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:31.500 +Which, so The question is, + +00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:37.460 +what is the promise for local models? + +00:19:39.660 --> 00:19:40.160 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, so local is definitely... + +00:19:41.380 --> 00:19:41.880 +[Speaker 2]: Or at least open source. + +00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:46.120 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, so there is a local open source model, + +00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:48.460 +Misral, which you could run. + +00:19:51.340 --> 00:19:51.840 +The LLM package allows you to use, + +00:19:56.120 --> 00:19:56.260 +I think there's 3 kind of local things you + +00:19:58.100 --> 00:19:58.440 +could use. Like many of these things, + +00:20:00.220 --> 00:20:00.480 +there's like many kind of ways to do the same + +00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:04.460 +sort of thing. So LLM is supporting OLAMMA + +00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:10.520 +and LLAMMA-CPP. And let's see, + +00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:12.740 +1 other. Which 1 is it? + +00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:18.700 +And maybe that's it. Maybe the, + +00:20:21.820 --> 00:20:21.940 +oh, GPT for all. So each 1 of these kind of + +00:20:23.100 --> 00:20:23.600 +has slightly different functionality. + +00:20:26.820 --> 00:20:27.180 +For example, I think GPT for all doesn't + +00:20:31.780 --> 00:20:32.280 +support embeddings. And I hear that Olama's + +00:20:33.740 --> 00:20:34.240 +embeddings are kind of currently broken. + +00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:36.420 +But basically they should support everything. + +00:20:39.100 --> 00:20:39.600 +And the open source models are, + +00:20:43.180 --> 00:20:43.380 +so the local models are reasonably good. + +00:20:44.760 --> 00:20:44.900 +Like I don't think you'd use them and be + +00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:46.639 +like, what is this horrible nonsense? + +00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:50.380 +Like it's, it gives you relatively good + +00:20:51.820 --> 00:20:52.120 +results. Like it's not gonna be at the level + +00:20:56.060 --> 00:20:56.320 +of like GPT 3.5 or 4, but it's not far away + +00:20:57.720 --> 00:20:58.220 +from GPT 3.5, I think. + +00:21:02.380 --> 00:21:02.880 +[Speaker 2]: I'm just saying that Olam has like a presets + +00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:06.300 +for connecting the actual working servers for + +00:21:06.300 --> 00:21:06.800 +Olama? + +00:21:08.560 --> 00:21:08.760 +[Speaker 0]: So, I'll try. Yeah, so you could, + +00:21:09.860 --> 00:21:10.040 +what you could do is you could like for + +00:21:11.940 --> 00:21:12.100 +example you could download Olama which is + +00:21:15.780 --> 00:21:15.940 +just a way of setting up local models and + +00:21:17.320 --> 00:21:17.780 +running local models on your machine. + +00:21:18.580 --> 00:21:18.820 +So typically what it does, + +00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:20.020 +you like download a program, + +00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:23.800 +let's say Olama. Then Olama will have the + +00:21:24.940 --> 00:21:25.440 +ability to download models. + +00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:27.360 +And so you could choose from just a host of + +00:21:29.280 --> 00:21:29.440 +different models. Each 1 of these things has + +00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:30.440 +a bunch of different models. + +00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:32.080 +So it downloads all these things to your + +00:21:36.600 --> 00:21:37.020 +machine. But I would say that the key problem + +00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:40.580 +here is that it requires a fairly beefy + +00:21:40.580 --> 00:21:41.080 +machine. + +00:21:42.600 --> 00:21:43.100 +[Speaker 2]: So. Yeah, yeah, of course. + +00:21:45.060 --> 00:21:45.300 +Why I was asking, because you briefly + +00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:46.880 +mentioned that there are some Israeli + +00:21:52.300 --> 00:21:52.440 +servers. I understand that they run it like a + +00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:54.000 +government or stuff like that? + +00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:55.940 +No, no, sorry. People want everyone? + +00:21:59.340 --> 00:21:59.620 +[Speaker 0]: I don't, I mean, maybe you've said something + +00:22:00.620 --> 00:22:01.020 +that sounded like Israeli servers. + +00:22:01.620 --> 00:22:02.120 +[Speaker 2]: Okay, okay. + +00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:05.080 +[Speaker 0]: I think- There's no government LLMs as far as + +00:22:06.820 --> 00:22:07.280 +I know. Although, I'm sure the governments + +00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:08.700 +are working on their own LLMs, + +00:22:10.980 --> 00:22:11.480 +et cetera. But yeah, basically your choices + +00:22:15.060 --> 00:22:15.220 +are spend a, I mean, if you use open AI or + +00:22:16.080 --> 00:22:16.580 +something or anything else, + +00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:18.460 +you're really not spending any money. + +00:22:20.560 --> 00:22:20.840 +Like I've never been able to spend any money + +00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:24.020 +on OpenAI. Like unless you're doing something + +00:22:25.840 --> 00:22:26.280 +very intensive and really are using it to, + +00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:28.180 +you know, if you're using it for your + +00:22:29.620 --> 00:22:29.780 +personal use, it's just hard to spend any + +00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:31.960 +money. But on the other hand, + +00:22:32.780 --> 00:22:32.860 +it's not free. So you can, + +00:22:33.040 --> 00:22:33.540 +you know, + +00:22:36.300 --> 00:22:36.680 +[Speaker 2]: Actually, it's rather cheap. + +00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:38.180 +There's no question about that. + +00:22:40.580 --> 00:22:40.920 +The problem is that it has a bad track record + +00:22:41.580 --> 00:22:42.080 +on privacy. + +00:22:45.540 --> 00:22:46.040 +[Speaker 0]: Yes, that's, I think that is a key problem. + +00:22:48.120 --> 00:22:48.280 +This is probably the number 1 reason why you + +00:22:51.840 --> 00:22:52.340 +might want to use a local AI, + +00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:55.220 +a local LLM. Another 1 is like, + +00:22:57.400 --> 00:22:57.900 +you may not agree with the decisions. + +00:23:00.360 --> 00:23:00.820 +You know, there's a lot of trust and safety + +00:23:05.140 --> 00:23:05.440 +stuff that these companies have to do. + +00:23:09.020 --> 00:23:09.240 +Like they don't want like the LMs to kind of + +00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:11.640 +like give you, like tell you how you can make + +00:23:13.180 --> 00:23:13.580 +meth or how you can make a bomb, + +00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:15.460 +which they would do. They would totally do + +00:23:19.580 --> 00:23:20.080 +it. So, But each time you kind of restrict + +00:23:22.540 --> 00:23:22.680 +what is happening with what you can get out + +00:23:23.860 --> 00:23:24.360 +of the LM, it gets a little worse. + +00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:25.440 +So some people + +00:23:27.040 --> 00:23:27.540 +[Speaker 2]: want to have local. That's expected. + +00:23:31.080 --> 00:23:31.400 +I guess even open source language modules + +00:23:33.540 --> 00:23:34.040 +will soon have HR spaces because it's simply + +00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:35.220 +a legal issue. + +00:23:40.760 --> 00:23:41.140 +[Speaker 0]: I think that's true. I also think that there + +00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:43.040 +probably will be, although I don't know of + +00:23:45.060 --> 00:23:45.300 +any offhand, that will are completely + +00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:47.200 +uncensored. I know people are interested and + +00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:48.480 +are running uncensored models. + +00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:49.940 +I don't know how to do it. + +00:23:52.280 --> 00:23:52.780 +I think it's a little bit dubious, + +00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:55.040 +but some people do want to do it. + +00:23:56.280 --> 00:23:56.780 +There's another reason for using local + +00:24:02.280 --> 00:24:02.780 +servers. Do you have any recommendation for + +00:24:05.500 --> 00:24:05.720 +models to run locally and also comments on + +00:24:06.780 --> 00:24:07.280 +whether a GPU is required? + +00:24:14.040 --> 00:24:14.160 +Usually a GPU, well, you can run it without a + +00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:17.460 +GPU, but it does run much better. + +00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:19.980 +Like for example, I think when I used, + +00:24:22.560 --> 00:24:23.060 +Lama is sort of like a standard. + +00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:27.320 +This was the model for that Facebook came out + +00:24:31.380 --> 00:24:31.880 +with for local use. And It was, + +00:24:37.260 --> 00:24:37.760 +yeah, it's good. It's, + +00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:40.900 +but it's now it's I think, + +00:24:44.620 --> 00:24:44.920 +Mistral is kind of like has a better + +00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:46.800 +performance, But there's also different model + +00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:51.500 +sizes. There's 7B, like the Lama 7B is OK. + +00:24:52.940 --> 00:24:53.440 +The Mistral 7B, 7 billion, + +00:24:54.800 --> 00:24:55.300 +are like, basically it'll take like, + +00:24:58.380 --> 00:24:58.880 +you can run it with like 16 gigs of RAM, + +00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:03.040 +is pretty good. It's probably about as equal + +00:25:06.900 --> 00:25:07.000 +to the LLAMA13B. Those are the number of + +00:25:08.360 --> 00:25:08.860 +parameters, if I remember correctly. + +00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:11.180 +And then there's a 7B, + +00:25:12.340 --> 00:25:12.840 +which I've never been able to run. + +00:25:16.120 --> 00:25:16.620 +And even if the 7B, if you run it without a + +00:25:19.640 --> 00:25:20.140 +GPU, it takes quite a while to answer. + +00:25:22.080 --> 00:25:22.580 +I think I've had experiences where it took + +00:25:23.940 --> 00:25:24.440 +literally like several, + +00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:26.780 +like 5 minutes before it even started + +00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:29.100 +responding, but you do eventually get + +00:25:32.220 --> 00:25:32.580 +something. And it could be that like things + +00:25:33.840 --> 00:25:33.960 +have gotten better since the last time I + +00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:35.940 +tried this, because things are moving fast. + +00:25:38.360 --> 00:25:38.860 +But it is super recommended to have a GPU. + +00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:42.620 +This is the problem. It's kind of like, + +00:25:43.840 --> 00:25:44.180 +yes, free software is great. + +00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:47.120 +But if free software is requiring that you + +00:25:50.460 --> 00:25:50.760 +have these kind of beefy servers and have all + +00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:52.500 +this hardware, that's not great. + +00:25:53.600 --> 00:25:54.100 +I think there's a case to be made. + +00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:56.180 +[Speaker 1]: a hardware + +00:25:59.040 --> 00:25:59.540 +[Speaker 0]: with slots instead of a laptop. + +00:26:01.560 --> 00:26:02.060 +Yeah, yeah, that's right. + +00:26:03.660 --> 00:26:03.960 +[Speaker 2]: Ideally, you can have Ideally, + +00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:07.660 +it would be nice if FSL for all things could + +00:26:12.040 --> 00:26:12.540 +run something for open source model. + +00:26:16.320 --> 00:26:16.640 +And not free, but the key point is that it's + +00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:17.140 +Libre? + +00:26:22.580 --> 00:26:23.080 +[Speaker 0]: Yes, so actually I think Google does do that. + +00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:24.800 +I'll have to look it up, + +00:26:27.560 --> 00:26:27.820 +but I haven't explored this yet. + +00:26:31.220 --> 00:26:31.720 +But Google's server, which LLM does support, + +00:26:33.800 --> 00:26:34.300 +supports arbitrary models. + +00:26:36.420 --> 00:26:36.600 +So you can run LLMA or things like that. + +00:26:38.940 --> 00:26:39.200 +The problem is that even if you're running + +00:26:40.320 --> 00:26:40.820 +Mistral, which has no restrictions. + +00:26:42.940 --> 00:26:43.140 +So this is the kind of thing that like the + +00:26:44.900 --> 00:26:45.060 +Free Software Foundation cares a lot about. + +00:26:47.240 --> 00:26:47.740 +Like you want it to be like no restrictions, + +00:26:49.740 --> 00:26:49.840 +legal restrictions on you as you run the + +00:26:52.080 --> 00:26:52.580 +model. So even if it's running Mistral, + +00:26:54.800 --> 00:26:55.300 +just by using the server, + +00:26:58.460 --> 00:26:58.660 +the company server, it will impose some + +00:26:59.440 --> 00:26:59.900 +restrictions on you probably, + +00:27:02.320 --> 00:27:02.480 +right? There's gonna be some license that you + +00:27:04.760 --> 00:27:05.260 +have to, or something you have to abide by. + +00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:08.600 +So I think, yes, it depends on how much you + +00:27:09.280 --> 00:27:09.780 +care about it, I guess. + +00:27:19.500 --> 00:27:19.640 +I should find out more about that and make + +00:27:21.580 --> 00:27:22.080 +sure that it's a good point that I should, + +00:27:23.980 --> 00:27:24.180 +you know, people should be able to run free + +00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:26.280 +models over the server. + +00:27:28.320 --> 00:27:28.440 +So I should make sure we support that in the + +00:27:40.360 --> 00:27:40.860 +LLM package. So, is there any other questions + +00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:48.740 +Or is otherwise we can end the session. + +00:28:00.800 --> 00:28:01.040 +Yeah, all right. Thank you. + +00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:02.940 +Thank you. Thank you everyone who listened. + +00:28:04.540 --> 00:28:05.040 +I'm super happy like I, + +00:28:06.560 --> 00:28:07.060 +the interest is great. + +00:28:08.900 --> 00:28:09.220 +I think there's great stuff to be done here + +00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:11.140 +and I'm kind of super excited what we're + +00:28:11.940 --> 00:28:12.160 +going to do in the next year, + +00:28:13.140 --> 00:28:13.440 +so hopefully, like next year, + +00:28:14.600 --> 00:28:14.760 +and the conference we have something even + +00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:16.560 +more exciting to say about LLM and how they + +00:28:17.320 --> 00:28:17.820 +can be used with Emacs. + +00:28:19.620 --> 00:28:20.120 +So thank + +00:28:30.060 --> 00:28:30.560 +you diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-lspocaml--writing-a-language-server-in-ocaml-for-emacs-fun-and-profit--austin-theriault--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-lspocaml--writing-a-language-server-in-ocaml-for-emacs-fun-and-profit--austin-theriault--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..277f3dd1 --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-lspocaml--writing-a-language-server-in-ocaml-for-emacs-fun-and-profit--austin-theriault--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,1019 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:03.540 --> 00:00:03.939 +[Speaker 0]: I would invite all on the, + +00:00:04.600 --> 00:00:04.960 +who are currently watching, + +00:00:06.819 --> 00:00:07.200 +who have questions, put them into the pad + +00:00:08.940 --> 00:00:09.440 +that I can ask them. I'm kind of monitoring + +00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:16.720 +the IRC concurrently. So the first question + +00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:18.800 +that we have on the pad is concerning why you + +00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:20.100 +have switched from OCaml. + +00:00:22.420 --> 00:00:22.800 +Maybe the person has missed it in the talk, + +00:00:23.480 --> 00:00:23.980 +if you've mentioned it. + +00:00:25.080 --> 00:00:25.320 +Why have you switched from OCaml to, + +00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:26.180 +in this case, I guess, + +00:00:26.180 --> 00:00:26.680 +Rust? + +00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:31.080 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I mentioned like with writing a + +00:00:34.280 --> 00:00:34.440 +language server that I wrote mine for my + +00:00:36.900 --> 00:00:37.120 +company in OCaml But I wouldn't recommend it + +00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:39.220 +just in general unless like you're doing + +00:00:41.720 --> 00:00:42.040 +something specific with OCaml And the reason + +00:00:44.180 --> 00:00:44.340 +for that and I recommended Rust or like + +00:00:45.780 --> 00:00:46.100 +TypeScript is like OCaml is great. + +00:00:49.080 --> 00:00:49.360 +It's very performant but it's cross + +00:00:50.739 --> 00:00:51.100 +compilation story is not great. + +00:00:54.100 --> 00:00:54.340 +It's like really hard to cross compile like + +00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:56.320 +from 1 platform to another. + +00:00:58.120 --> 00:00:58.540 +And then like the ecosystem and its standard + +00:01:00.380 --> 00:01:00.880 +library is also not great. + +00:01:03.460 --> 00:01:03.640 +And like Rust, its cross compilation is + +00:01:05.820 --> 00:01:06.320 +great. Its ecosystem is great. + +00:01:08.720 --> 00:01:09.060 +OCaml is great if you need to use it, + +00:01:10.880 --> 00:01:11.380 +but it's just it's not ideal. + +00:01:14.220 --> 00:01:14.340 +And there's just also no good examples of a + +00:01:15.240 --> 00:01:15.740 +language server in OCaml. + +00:01:19.119 --> 00:01:19.619 +There's the official like OCaml language + +00:01:22.920 --> 00:01:23.420 +server, But they use a ton of super advanced + +00:01:27.380 --> 00:01:27.540 +language features, like module functors and a + +00:01:28.440 --> 00:01:28.700 +bunch of other random stuff. + +00:01:29.479 --> 00:01:29.979 +So it's not really readable. + +00:01:31.860 --> 00:01:32.300 +But Rust, there's Rust analyzer, + +00:01:33.340 --> 00:01:33.780 +which is readable. In TypeScript, + +00:01:34.860 --> 00:01:35.360 +there's like a million different ones. + +00:01:39.340 --> 00:01:39.660 +So it's less of a, not OCaml is like, + +00:01:40.920 --> 00:01:41.280 +it's not that OCaml isn't great. + +00:01:43.320 --> 00:01:43.440 +It's more of a, these other languages would + +00:01:44.160 --> 00:01:44.660 +probably just be easier. + +00:01:45.280 --> 00:01:45.780 +So. + +00:01:48.619 --> 00:01:48.920 +[Speaker 0]: I guess since the integration to, + +00:01:50.820 --> 00:01:51.000 +for example, like NeoVim or some other + +00:01:53.320 --> 00:01:53.460 +editors are just revenue fine because of the + +00:01:56.920 --> 00:01:57.420 +[Speaker 1]: Sorry, can you say that again? + +00:01:58.580 --> 00:01:59.080 +[Speaker 0]: LSP, I guess. The LSP, + +00:02:01.979 --> 00:02:02.100 +so it's a standard LSP specification that + +00:02:03.080 --> 00:02:03.400 +you're using. So you can also, + +00:02:04.920 --> 00:02:05.340 +for instance, use it and other editors, + +00:02:06.660 --> 00:02:07.160 +like for instance, new them or so. + +00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:08.940 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. Yeah. You can use it. + +00:02:11.680 --> 00:02:11.920 +It's most, most editors nowadays support it. + +00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:13.780 +Like obviously Emacs, NeoVim, + +00:02:16.420 --> 00:02:16.840 +Sublime, VS code, Intel, + +00:02:17.700 --> 00:02:18.200 +all the IntelliJ ones. + +00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:21.960 +So yeah, that's, that's the fun part. + +00:02:23.440 --> 00:02:23.760 +You don't have to write 10 different + +00:02:26.500 --> 00:02:27.000 +languages to get a bunch of editor support. + +00:02:30.200 --> 00:02:30.300 +[Speaker 0]: Also experience writing it. + +00:02:33.820 --> 00:02:34.040 +So I didn't have really time to hear into + +00:02:36.300 --> 00:02:36.560 +your talk. So I'm sorry if I ask you + +00:02:38.100 --> 00:02:38.600 +questions that you have already said. + +00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:41.900 +How was the experience of writing an LSP? + +00:02:44.340 --> 00:02:44.480 +So have you any knowledge beforehand or do + +00:02:45.600 --> 00:02:46.100 +you just read it all on yourself? + +00:02:49.200 --> 00:02:49.700 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, there's not a ton of documentation, + +00:02:53.440 --> 00:02:53.940 +which is what motivated me to do this talk. + +00:02:56.380 --> 00:02:56.580 +Basically, I just looked at the + +00:02:58.820 --> 00:02:58.980 +specification, and I knew Rust Analyzer was + +00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:00.740 +cool. And so I looked at Rust Analyzer, + +00:03:01.600 --> 00:03:02.100 +and I looked at PyRite. + +00:03:04.200 --> 00:03:04.700 +And I just went from there. + +00:03:07.920 --> 00:03:08.420 +I found out about all this because I already + +00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:10.440 +using Emacs, I already knew about it. + +00:03:12.160 --> 00:03:12.660 +I was like, this is going to be easier than + +00:03:15.020 --> 00:03:15.480 +something else. So yeah, + +00:03:17.720 --> 00:03:18.220 +there's the experience is fine. + +00:03:21.060 --> 00:03:21.300 +It's just a lot of wiring stuff up. + +00:03:24.100 --> 00:03:24.320 +It's not a lot of like hard thinking until + +00:03:26.200 --> 00:03:26.700 +you get to like performance heavy stuff. + +00:03:27.740 --> 00:03:28.080 +Like, so for some graph, + +00:03:30.760 --> 00:03:31.260 +like we're doing a ton of like code parsing + +00:03:32.980 --> 00:03:33.480 +and like analyzing. And so that's, + +00:03:35.760 --> 00:03:36.260 +it takes up like a ton of processing power. + +00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:37.600 +So like for stuff like that, + +00:03:39.620 --> 00:03:39.840 +like now you have to think about caching and + +00:03:43.980 --> 00:03:44.380 +like ordering things. So that part's hard, + +00:03:47.180 --> 00:03:47.420 +but that's more of a, like very much + +00:03:48.640 --> 00:03:49.140 +application specific thing. + +00:03:58.320 --> 00:03:58.620 +[Speaker 0]: Right. Anything in the IRC chat. + +00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:02.340 +I think not. It's nothing I can see. + +00:04:13.380 --> 00:04:13.520 +No questions, that's kind of odd to be + +00:04:17.440 --> 00:04:17.860 +honest. I cannot really ask questions + +00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:19.180 +concerning LSP specific. + +00:04:22.400 --> 00:04:22.900 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, no worries. + +00:04:31.460 --> 00:04:31.960 +[Speaker 0]: Good question, what could be asked? + +00:04:35.740 --> 00:04:36.140 +Let's call, let's ask something very + +00:04:38.260 --> 00:04:38.680 +unspecific concerning the Emacs usage. + +00:04:39.340 --> 00:04:39.760 +And when have you started? + +00:04:41.580 --> 00:04:41.780 +How did you came through it and stuff like + +00:04:41.780 --> 00:04:42.280 +this? + +00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:46.960 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. I like and when I was in high school, + +00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:48.980 +me and my friends just were like, + +00:04:51.820 --> 00:04:52.320 +got obsessed with Linux for whatever reason. + +00:04:53.940 --> 00:04:54.140 +And then like we traveled down like the, + +00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:56.060 +like the free software, + +00:04:57.700 --> 00:04:57.940 +like we just thought that was like very + +00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:00.160 +entertaining and like interesting to read + +00:05:01.200 --> 00:05:01.700 +about all the free software stuff. + +00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:03.480 +They were like, yeah, that's cool. + +00:05:04.540 --> 00:05:05.040 +And so we all started using Linux. + +00:05:06.960 --> 00:05:07.200 +And I'm like, well, if I'm using free + +00:05:08.300 --> 00:05:08.740 +software, I'm going to use Emacs. + +00:05:12.280 --> 00:05:12.440 +And so I started using Emacs just to try it + +00:05:13.940 --> 00:05:14.440 +out. And then I kind of got, + +00:05:16.880 --> 00:05:17.380 +I feel like, Stockholm syndrome into it. + +00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:19.220 +And now I've realized like, + +00:05:21.860 --> 00:05:22.360 +I don't know, now that I've done the like + +00:05:23.880 --> 00:05:24.340 +actual work to get into Emacs, + +00:05:26.280 --> 00:05:26.480 +it's just, there's so much more I can do with + +00:05:30.300 --> 00:05:30.800 +it. But yeah, it was somewhat unintentional. + +00:05:36.100 --> 00:05:36.420 +[Speaker 0]: I probably have the same course I've started + +00:05:37.780 --> 00:05:38.280 +like 2 years ago using Emacs. + +00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:42.940 +And also just, oh, there's at first some cool + +00:05:45.020 --> 00:05:45.340 +people on YouTube, so systems crafters and + +00:05:46.300 --> 00:05:46.800 +people like this. And also, + +00:05:49.440 --> 00:05:49.740 +ah, VS Code, I used a lot of VS Code + +00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:53.860 +beforehand and then VS Codium because open + +00:05:55.640 --> 00:05:55.860 +source and then oh are there any other + +00:05:58.020 --> 00:05:58.180 +alternatives and I came to like Neovim and + +00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:01.440 +Emacs and often switching around but I stick + +00:06:03.220 --> 00:06:03.720 +to Emacs at some point to be honest. + +00:06:07.180 --> 00:06:07.540 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I think Emacs also just looks really + +00:06:08.500 --> 00:06:09.000 +cool. I will say that. + +00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:14.640 +And also just like I like Vim. + +00:06:16.960 --> 00:06:17.240 +Vim is cool but like being able to like write + +00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:19.540 +lists and like modify your editor on the fly + +00:06:20.920 --> 00:06:21.420 +is just like very appealing to me. + +00:06:23.860 --> 00:06:24.140 +I don't know, Emacs was tough at first + +00:06:25.520 --> 00:06:25.680 +because like all the like default key + +00:06:28.380 --> 00:06:28.440 +bindings are just kind of like and then and + +00:06:29.860 --> 00:06:30.040 +then I read somewhere someone was like yeah + +00:06:33.220 --> 00:06:33.460 +well Richard Stallman uses evil mode so it's + +00:06:36.220 --> 00:06:36.460 +okay. I was like alright I can that's like + +00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:38.200 +blessing enough for me Like I'm just gonna + +00:06:39.520 --> 00:06:39.720 +switch to evil mode. And I was like, + +00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:42.360 +this is way, way better as far as key + +00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:43.420 +bindings go. + +00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:47.020 +[Speaker 0]: Kind of relates. So I switched for, + +00:06:49.900 --> 00:06:50.040 +I think, half a year to the default key + +00:06:51.300 --> 00:06:51.800 +bindings from Vim beforehand. + +00:06:54.960 --> 00:06:55.240 +I switched back to Evil and now I'm losing + +00:06:56.100 --> 00:06:56.600 +some kind of hybrid styles. + +00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:01.120 +It's kind of weird. But we have a question on + +00:07:03.260 --> 00:07:03.700 +the pad. So what are the corner cases, + +00:07:05.380 --> 00:07:05.880 +limitations, and other issues you encountered + +00:07:08.860 --> 00:07:09.020 +in implementing an LSP server with client in + +00:07:09.940 --> 00:07:10.440 +Emacs that were surprising? + +00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:13.860 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I would say the corner cases and + +00:07:15.280 --> 00:07:15.780 +limitations are definitely like, + +00:07:16.960 --> 00:07:17.220 +once again, they're going to be very + +00:07:18.960 --> 00:07:19.160 +application specific, but it's usually just + +00:07:22.420 --> 00:07:22.680 +the performance part. So like I was saying + +00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:24.900 +before, right, in general if you're doing + +00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:26.620 +language tooling, you're gonna be doing + +00:07:29.760 --> 00:07:30.080 +either parsing or interpreting or something + +00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:31.880 +like that, which is very just like + +00:07:34.740 --> 00:07:35.080 +computationally heavy and so if you're trying + +00:07:36.900 --> 00:07:37.060 +to like do that stuff while someone is + +00:07:38.520 --> 00:07:39.000 +editing a file right like every keystrokes + +00:07:42.660 --> 00:07:42.840 +every like 1 to 2 seconds if they have a fast + +00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:44.540 +computer that's great but a lot of people + +00:07:46.400 --> 00:07:46.560 +don't have like that fast of a computer that + +00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:49.740 +they can go and like do compilation every + +00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:52.180 +single keystroke. So like, + +00:07:54.080 --> 00:07:54.580 +I would say, I would say the like limitation + +00:07:56.920 --> 00:07:57.080 +is just how fast your computer is and how + +00:07:59.140 --> 00:07:59.340 +good you are at like implementing caching for + +00:08:01.020 --> 00:08:01.520 +like whatever you're doing. + +00:08:04.080 --> 00:08:04.280 +That's also just the main issues I've run + +00:08:08.080 --> 00:08:08.580 +into is just it's a constant uphill battle. + +00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:12.560 +People will somehow find larger and larger + +00:08:14.580 --> 00:08:15.080 +files. You'll end up with files that are like + +00:08:17.320 --> 00:08:17.680 +thousands, like tens of thousands of lines + +00:08:18.700 --> 00:08:18.940 +long and you think yeah, + +00:08:21.340 --> 00:08:21.840 +surely no 1 would expect like instantaneous + +00:08:25.440 --> 00:08:25.640 +response for like like editing a file that + +00:08:26.820 --> 00:08:27.040 +has like tens of thousands of lines, + +00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:30.180 +but then they do. As far as corner cases go, + +00:08:31.960 --> 00:08:32.459 +I would say the corner case is like, + +00:08:37.760 --> 00:08:37.919 +just in general is actually distributing the + +00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:41.200 +language server. Cause like writing the + +00:08:42.340 --> 00:08:42.840 +language server is fine. + +00:08:44.540 --> 00:08:44.900 +Like wiring everything up is fine. + +00:08:47.180 --> 00:08:47.300 +But then like, once you actually have to go + +00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:48.120 +and distribute it, well, + +00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:49.700 +now you're distributing in a binary. + +00:08:51.660 --> 00:08:52.160 +Like I was saying before with OCaml, + +00:08:53.940 --> 00:08:54.440 +doesn't have great cross compilation. + +00:08:58.840 --> 00:08:59.340 +So for some graph for our language server, + +00:09:01.560 --> 00:09:02.060 +we target Linux and Mac OS, + +00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:04.340 +and we have a ton of people who use Windows, + +00:09:06.960 --> 00:09:07.440 +but compiling OCaml for Windows is basically + +00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:10.440 +impossible. So our corner case there, + +00:09:11.980 --> 00:09:12.480 +the way we solved it was now we're + +00:09:14.160 --> 00:09:14.660 +transpiling OCaml to JavaScript, + +00:09:17.080 --> 00:09:17.560 +which is a huge can of worms. + +00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:19.040 +Like it's a lot of fun. + +00:09:19.400 --> 00:09:19.900 +It's very interesting, + +00:09:22.860 --> 00:09:23.360 +but like it's not ideal. + +00:09:24.340 --> 00:09:24.720 +And so that's what I was saying before. + +00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:26.580 +I recommend like Rust or TypeScript because + +00:09:29.580 --> 00:09:29.820 +those are way more portable and a lot easier + +00:09:31.280 --> 00:09:31.780 +to install. And you don't have to worry about + +00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:34.100 +any of that weird packaging stuff. + +00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:38.080 +So yeah, I would say that's like the main + +00:09:40.260 --> 00:09:40.760 +corner case and the main limitation is just + +00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:42.220 +speed and caching. + +00:09:47.160 --> 00:09:47.640 +[Speaker 0]: You mentioned this obscure large file so + +00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:49.160 +someone doesn't want to refactor or + +00:09:51.760 --> 00:09:52.200 +something. How did you start? + +00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:54.620 +So did you have any way to still be + +00:09:56.320 --> 00:09:56.580 +relatively performant when they have big + +00:09:58.020 --> 00:09:58.520 +files or is it just not supported? + +00:09:58.920 --> 00:09:59.420 +I don't care. + +00:10:03.140 --> 00:10:03.640 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, no, we, so we support larger files now + +00:10:05.460 --> 00:10:05.960 +And the way we ended up doing that, + +00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:11.980 +so SemGrep is like you write this generic + +00:10:14.540 --> 00:10:14.900 +pattern. You kind of write the language, + +00:10:17.160 --> 00:10:17.320 +but then there's these other symbols and + +00:10:18.760 --> 00:10:19.160 +stuff that are included in that, + +00:10:19.760 --> 00:10:20.260 +this like meta language. + +00:10:22.420 --> 00:10:22.580 +And so what happens is, + +00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:24.100 +is most languages get, + +00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:27.900 +they get parsed and then into a syntax tree, + +00:10:29.180 --> 00:10:29.600 +right? Like whatever the language is syntax + +00:10:30.620 --> 00:10:31.120 +tree is, and then they get, + +00:10:33.800 --> 00:10:34.000 +the syntax tree gets converted into this, + +00:10:35.860 --> 00:10:36.360 +like, we call it like an abstract syntax + +00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:38.300 +tree, which is like abstract from like any, + +00:10:39.860 --> 00:10:40.360 +like languages specific syntax tree. + +00:10:41.940 --> 00:10:42.380 +And so then we can cache that, + +00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:44.760 +which is really good because like if someone + +00:10:47.700 --> 00:10:47.920 +types something like we don't have to go + +00:10:50.280 --> 00:10:50.440 +through and do like the full parsing and like + +00:10:51.560 --> 00:10:51.760 +converting, we only have to do it + +00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:55.200 +incrementally. And so that's, + +00:10:56.100 --> 00:10:56.420 +that's how we dealt with that. + +00:10:58.140 --> 00:10:58.640 +Or the other option is that we just, + +00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:01.180 +we just cache whatever the previous results + +00:11:03.460 --> 00:11:03.960 +are, and then run it asynchronously, + +00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:05.460 +and they might get it delayed. + +00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:08.700 +But we've ended up doing more AST caching, + +00:11:09.880 --> 00:11:10.380 +which is fun and cool. + +00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:15.900 +[Speaker 0]: Sounds good. So we have here a question from + +00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:18.540 +Blaine. If Eaglet is a subset of LSP mode, + +00:11:21.680 --> 00:11:21.840 +can EGLOT conflict with LSP mode if both are + +00:11:23.400 --> 00:11:23.900 +present in your initial .el + +00:11:24.280 --> 00:11:24.780 +file? + +00:11:27.740 --> 00:11:28.240 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so I haven't played around with EGLOT + +00:11:30.580 --> 00:11:30.960 +mode a ton, so I'm not 100% sure. + +00:11:33.920 --> 00:11:34.420 +I think all of the key bindings and commands, + +00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:36.820 +if you just install it out of the box, + +00:11:39.020 --> 00:11:39.520 +I Think they're different. + +00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:41.840 +So I don't think there's like any like + +00:11:44.760 --> 00:11:45.040 +overlap as far as that stuff goes but you + +00:11:47.520 --> 00:11:47.900 +will have the overlap of like you entered, + +00:11:49.780 --> 00:11:49.960 +like you started a major mode for like some + +00:11:51.500 --> 00:11:51.720 +language, like they'll both probably start + +00:11:53.040 --> 00:11:53.540 +the language server and provide diagnostics + +00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:55.580 +and everything. And so then now you're + +00:11:58.180 --> 00:11:58.320 +getting like, you're just like doubling the + +00:11:59.340 --> 00:11:59.680 +work your computer is doing. + +00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:00.980 +So there's that conflict. + +00:12:04.160 --> 00:12:04.360 +But if you prefer EGLOT mode or LSP mode for + +00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:05.700 +like 1 language or framework, + +00:12:09.060 --> 00:12:09.440 +like 1 major mode and LSP mode for the other, + +00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:11.100 +I think you should be fine. + +00:12:14.680 --> 00:12:14.860 +[Speaker 0]: All right. Just to let you know, + +00:12:20.460 --> 00:12:20.640 +we have like 1 minute on the stream and then + +00:12:22.540 --> 00:12:23.040 +we'll switch back and to the pre-recorded + +00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:24.500 +stuff I guess. + +00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:27.740 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah yeah yeah let's hi sorry for the rude + +00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:29.620 +interruption but I'm just doing a little bit + +00:12:31.700 --> 00:12:32.060 +of time keeping so thank you so much Austin + +00:12:34.340 --> 00:12:34.540 +sadly I wasn't able to follow the Q&A because + +00:12:36.280 --> 00:12:36.780 +I was in the other track answering questions. + +00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:40.360 +If, Austin, you want to stay and answer some + +00:12:41.580 --> 00:12:42.080 +more questions, feel free to do so. + +00:12:45.920 --> 00:12:46.220 +People tend to start talking as soon as we go + +00:12:48.400 --> 00:12:48.740 +off air, And I wouldn't be surprised with LSP + +00:12:49.540 --> 00:12:50.040 +that people would do the same. + +00:12:52.800 --> 00:12:53.040 +We're gonna move on for this track. + +00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:55.040 +We're gonna move on in 20 seconds to the next + +00:12:56.920 --> 00:12:57.420 +1. So Floey, thank you for hosting. + +00:12:58.680 --> 00:12:59.180 +Austin, thank you for all your answers. + +00:13:01.460 --> 00:13:01.960 +And We'll see you in a bit. + +00:13:04.740 --> 00:13:05.140 +[Speaker 1]: Cool. Thanks. See you. + +00:13:06.700 --> 00:13:07.200 +[Speaker 0]: Thanks for the Q&A. + +00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:10.440 +[Speaker 2]: All right. All right. You are now off air. + +00:13:11.400 --> 00:13:11.720 +Thank you so much, Austin. + +00:13:13.100 --> 00:13:13.200 +I'm going to go back running in the + +00:13:13.940 --> 00:13:14.100 +background. And thank you, + +00:13:14.700 --> 00:13:15.200 +Flowey, for everything. + +00:13:20.900 --> 00:13:21.400 +[Speaker 0]: And thanks. Yeah. Have a nice, + +00:13:23.160 --> 00:13:23.660 +probably a nice day at your work. + +00:13:24.140 --> 00:13:24.240 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, no worries. Yeah. + +00:13:26.380 --> 00:13:26.680 +Yeah, it's still it's like lunchtime for me. + +00:13:28.100 --> 00:13:28.600 +[Speaker 0]: So okay, here, it's like, + +00:13:34.380 --> 00:13:34.700 +09:00. 9pm. Thanks for the talk. + +00:13:36.300 --> 00:13:36.600 +Sorry for the inconvenience was not having + +00:13:37.540 --> 00:13:38.040 +any, any questions, really. + +00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:39.380 +[Speaker 1]: So yeah. Oh yeah, no worries. + +00:13:41.100 --> 00:13:41.280 +It's like, there's like no documentation on + +00:13:42.940 --> 00:13:43.380 +any of this stuff. So I didn't really expect + +00:13:43.380 --> 00:13:43.880 +any. + +00:13:47.220 --> 00:13:47.560 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I was kind of interested when I jumped + +00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:51.140 +into NeoVim. I write it 1 or 2 things on my + +00:13:53.140 --> 00:13:53.320 +own, but never really got really deep into + +00:13:54.520 --> 00:13:54.960 +it. And you're gonna see with like compiler + +00:13:55.920 --> 00:13:56.140 +design and stuff like this, + +00:13:57.400 --> 00:13:57.900 +but not really specific. + +00:13:58.320 --> 00:13:58.820 +So I was + +00:14:00.860 --> 00:14:01.240 +[Speaker 1]: kind of- Yeah, that's the hard part. + +00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:02.880 +It's like, it's, LSP is cool, + +00:14:05.020 --> 00:14:05.200 +but then you have to like deal with all the + +00:14:06.760 --> 00:14:07.200 +like compiler stuff and programming language + +00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:07.700 +theory. + +00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:10.800 +[Speaker 0]: So yeah. So it's, it shouldn't be too + +00:14:13.280 --> 00:14:13.660 +complicated. I had not really a question, + +00:14:14.700 --> 00:14:15.140 +so, but it worked out fine. + +00:14:16.500 --> 00:14:17.000 +Thanks for the Q and A. + +00:14:18.560 --> 00:14:19.060 +And if I have any questions to Oak Hamill, + +00:14:20.640 --> 00:14:21.140 +Elderspeak will get an email from you. + +00:14:21.560 --> 00:14:22.060 +[Speaker 1]: Oh yeah, definitely. + +00:14:23.500 --> 00:14:24.000 +[Speaker 0]: Dan? diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-mentor--mentoring-vscoders-as-an-emacsian-or-how-to-show-not-tell-people-about-the-wonders-of-emacs--jeremy-friesen--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-mentor--mentoring-vscoders-as-an-emacsian-or-how-to-show-not-tell-people-about-the-wonders-of-emacs--jeremy-friesen--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..3fc25b4e --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-mentor--mentoring-vscoders-as-an-emacsian-or-how-to-show-not-tell-people-about-the-wonders-of-emacs--jeremy-friesen--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,4486 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:09.880 +[Speaker 0]: 2 seconds. And I think we are live. + +00:00:10.760 --> 00:00:11.260 +Hi, Jeremy, how are you doing? + +00:00:11.840 --> 00:00:12.040 +[Speaker 1]: All right. I'm doing all right. + +00:00:12.380 --> 00:00:12.880 +How about you? + +00:00:14.759 --> 00:00:15.060 +[Speaker 0]: I'm doing great as well. + +00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:16.640 +I'm really happy to see all the talk that + +00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:19.100 +we're having. And I was particularly excited + +00:00:21.880 --> 00:00:22.240 +when I got your proposal for this talk + +00:00:24.080 --> 00:00:24.279 +because mentoring, as I was telling you + +00:00:25.040 --> 00:00:25.540 +during the check-in process, + +00:00:27.360 --> 00:00:27.779 +is a subject dear to my heart. + +00:00:28.700 --> 00:00:29.200 +So I'm really excited, + +00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:30.920 +not only for the talk that you've just done, + +00:00:32.200 --> 00:00:32.360 +but also for the question that people are + +00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:33.380 +going to ask you. + +00:00:35.760 --> 00:00:36.020 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I'm looking forward to answering some + +00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:39.880 +questions. Mentoring is also something near + +00:00:43.860 --> 00:00:44.320 +and dear. Something I did not mention is when + +00:00:45.620 --> 00:00:45.820 +folks would ask me, like, + +00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:47.460 +what was your most important class? + +00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:49.199 +Or I said, oh, easy, easy, + +00:00:50.180 --> 00:00:50.680 +easy, high school English. + +00:00:54.160 --> 00:00:54.480 +Like, it's my whatever your primary written + +00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:56.820 +and spoken languages I think is the most + +00:00:58.860 --> 00:00:59.360 +useful skill as a programmer + +00:01:05.379 --> 00:01:05.580 +[Speaker 0]: right so as usual people if you want to ask + +00:01:09.520 --> 00:01:09.660 +questions to Jeremy, feel free to find the + +00:01:11.440 --> 00:01:11.940 +link to the other pad either on the talk page + +00:01:15.440 --> 00:01:15.720 +or on IRC. We're also going to open the chat + +00:01:17.320 --> 00:01:17.720 +so that people can join us and ask questions. + +00:01:20.380 --> 00:01:20.660 +Let me just make sure that I tell Sasha can + +00:01:25.440 --> 00:01:25.580 +you open ID Mentor. All right so in the + +00:01:27.320 --> 00:01:27.520 +meantime what we'll do is that I'll be + +00:01:29.660 --> 00:01:29.860 +reading questions of the pad and Jeremy will + +00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:31.480 +be answering them whilst we wait for you to + +00:01:32.800 --> 00:01:33.280 +join. Now just to be clear with the time, + +00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:34.820 +we have a little bit of time now, + +00:01:36.040 --> 00:01:36.540 +a little more time than before. + +00:01:39.520 --> 00:01:39.720 +We have 22 minutes, so until 10 of the next + +00:01:41.260 --> 00:01:41.400 +hours to answer as many questions as + +00:01:42.520 --> 00:01:42.900 +possible. And believe me, + +00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:45.200 +if you people watching right now are not + +00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:47.440 +asking questions, I will be asking plenty of + +00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:50.340 +them. So please, save Jeremy from my + +00:01:53.800 --> 00:01:54.300 +[Speaker 1]: I look forward to it. + +00:01:55.320 --> 00:01:55.820 +[Speaker 0]: inquisitive mind. All right. + +00:01:56.960 --> 00:01:57.460 +Starting with the first question, + +00:01:59.240 --> 00:01:59.680 +a very trivial 1, perhaps, + +00:02:01.720 --> 00:02:01.920 +but always 1 that I ask myself when I look at + +00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:04.340 +a keyboard. Regarding super key, + +00:02:05.980 --> 00:02:06.480 +which key do you bind to super? + +00:02:09.620 --> 00:02:10.120 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so my left command, + +00:02:12.180 --> 00:02:12.680 +which is on a Mac keyboard, + +00:02:16.620 --> 00:02:17.120 +so the key right to the left of the space bar + +00:02:20.860 --> 00:02:21.000 +is super. And the key immediately to the + +00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:23.400 +right of spacebar, which is the right command + +00:02:24.320 --> 00:02:24.820 +key, is bound to hyper, + +00:02:28.140 --> 00:02:28.640 +which opens up a whole new suite of keys. + +00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:31.280 +And I thought it would take a little bit to + +00:02:33.160 --> 00:02:33.660 +get used to, but it's been amazing. + +00:02:37.800 --> 00:02:38.300 +So I definitely recommend having a hyper + +00:02:38.440 --> 00:02:38.940 +binding. + +00:02:42.440 --> 00:02:42.720 +[Speaker 0]: I will, yes. I was also going to say super + +00:02:43.860 --> 00:02:44.160 +binding. No, it's a hyper binding. + +00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:45.040 +We already have super. + +00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:47.280 +It's your Windows key or your Linux key or + +00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:48.740 +whatever you want to call it. + +00:02:51.140 --> 00:02:51.640 +But I will warn people though, + +00:02:57.720 --> 00:02:58.200 +it's the gateway into fancy keyboard setups + +00:03:00.900 --> 00:03:01.400 +because it starts, it's the Trojan horse of + +00:03:02.700 --> 00:03:03.140 +fancy keyboard setup. Just, + +00:03:04.320 --> 00:03:04.820 +oh I wish I could have another modifier. + +00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:07.280 +And then many years later, + +00:03:09.160 --> 00:03:09.280 +you find yourself with this little thing that + +00:03:11.260 --> 00:03:11.760 +I'm showing, which is a fully customized QMK + +00:03:12.100 --> 00:03:12.600 +keyboard. + +00:03:13.540 --> 00:03:14.040 +[Speaker 2]: All right. + +00:03:18.200 --> 00:03:18.700 +[Speaker 1]: Following on that, then meta is to the left + +00:03:21.880 --> 00:03:22.080 +of super, and then control is to the left of + +00:03:26.720 --> 00:03:26.940 +meta. And also, caps lock maps to control as + +00:03:31.380 --> 00:03:31.620 +well. Definitely tried a bunch of tap for + +00:03:35.460 --> 00:03:35.940 +this and that on a programmable keyboard, + +00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:39.520 +but I have settled on keep it simple and use + +00:03:41.580 --> 00:03:41.780 +something like carabiner elements to do most + +00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:46.640 +[Speaker 0]: Right. It's good that you were able to stop + +00:03:48.480 --> 00:03:48.760 +there. I wish I'd stopped there at some point + +00:03:50.940 --> 00:03:51.340 +[Speaker 1]: of the mapping. It was a terrible moment + +00:03:52.900 --> 00:03:53.000 +where I'm like, oh, what have I done when I + +00:03:53.760 --> 00:03:54.200 +was trying to type once? + +00:03:57.500 --> 00:03:58.000 +[Speaker 0]: in my life. All right, + +00:03:58.920 --> 00:03:59.420 +moving on to the next question. + +00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:01.560 +Great talk. What's the package you used to + +00:04:02.120 --> 00:04:02.620 +make the org slide? + +00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:03.740 +[Speaker 1]: So yeah, it's great. Yeah, + +00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:13.940 +so I am using Protz Logos and have, + +00:04:15.660 --> 00:04:16.160 +I think, like, Olivet mode. + +00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:20.140 +I'll post a link to the configuration for + +00:04:21.019 --> 00:04:21.260 +turning it on and off. + +00:04:24.280 --> 00:04:24.680 +But it's basically narrow region to an org + +00:04:27.940 --> 00:04:28.220 +heading, which is, I find that to be super + +00:04:30.300 --> 00:04:30.800 +helpful. Don't have to fiddle with it. + +00:04:32.900 --> 00:04:33.120 +[Speaker 0]: Right, just to be clear, + +00:04:34.920 --> 00:04:35.140 +it's Olivetti, right? I think that's the... + +00:04:36.460 --> 00:04:36.960 +[Speaker 1]: Oh yeah, Olivetti, yeah. + +00:04:39.960 --> 00:04:40.120 +[Speaker 0]: A typical Italian word that is really tough + +00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:42.880 +to pronounce between Europeans and people in + +00:04:46.080 --> 00:04:46.400 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I had a... For some reason I dropped + +00:04:48.940 --> 00:04:49.440 +the I at the end. So in my head + +00:04:52.660 --> 00:04:52.800 +[Speaker 0]: the US. Yeah, moving to the next question if + +00:04:54.440 --> 00:04:54.800 +people do get interested in picking up emacs + +00:04:56.520 --> 00:04:56.680 +because of what they see you do How do you + +00:04:58.260 --> 00:04:58.440 +recommend they say they get into it? + +00:04:58.440 --> 00:04:58.940 +Oh + +00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:06.020 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so I've been I think a lot of it comes + +00:05:09.620 --> 00:05:09.780 +down to what are the problems that they're + +00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:11.880 +trying to solve. And so I walked them through + +00:05:15.460 --> 00:05:15.660 +my journey. I worked in TextMate for a long + +00:05:16.980 --> 00:05:17.480 +time, then Sublime, then Atom. + +00:05:20.220 --> 00:05:20.720 +And then in 2020, I hopped over to Emacs, + +00:05:25.080 --> 00:05:25.580 +started writing in it and I chose Space Max + +00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:27.180 +and then I chose Doom. + +00:05:28.140 --> 00:05:28.640 +And then I was like, wait, + +00:05:33.080 --> 00:05:33.280 +start over, erase everything and just do the + +00:05:36.620 --> 00:05:36.760 +tutorial. So I did the tutorial and then I + +00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:38.000 +started writing and I was like, + +00:05:39.520 --> 00:05:40.020 +oh, I really want this functionality. + +00:05:43.380 --> 00:05:43.580 +And so I went and I looked for it and I + +00:05:44.060 --> 00:05:44.560 +installed the package. + +00:05:46.060 --> 00:05:46.560 +And then I got the functionality, + +00:05:47.960 --> 00:05:48.120 +went back to writing, and I'm like, + +00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:50.080 +oh, my editor should really be able to do + +00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:52.500 +this. And I thought about it. + +00:05:55.380 --> 00:05:55.520 +So a lot of it came down to the experience of + +00:05:56.320 --> 00:05:56.820 +what they're trying to accomplish. + +00:06:00.900 --> 00:06:01.260 +And really helping ask them that. + +00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:04.900 +I had 1 mentee had used Vim for a long time + +00:06:07.700 --> 00:06:07.940 +and then was exploring using Evil Mode and + +00:06:13.100 --> 00:06:13.260 +Emacs and we had conversations and it was + +00:06:16.840 --> 00:06:17.220 +like go back to Vim like you were using VS + +00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:19.280 +Code just go back to Vim and they went back + +00:06:20.980 --> 00:06:21.420 +to Vim and then they started writing, + +00:06:22.760 --> 00:06:23.260 +well, they went to NeoVim and they started + +00:06:27.620 --> 00:06:27.900 +writing Lua plugins for stuff and it just + +00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:29.980 +helped free them and they gained that + +00:06:31.320 --> 00:06:31.820 +ownership in their text editor. + +00:06:37.520 --> 00:06:37.660 +So I try to have them think through what are + +00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:40.440 +the common tasks that they're trying to + +00:06:44.180 --> 00:06:44.440 +accomplish and then thinking in terms of + +00:06:46.320 --> 00:06:46.480 +that. So instead of going and finding a + +00:06:48.340 --> 00:06:48.560 +solution, understand the problems they're + +00:06:52.180 --> 00:06:52.320 +experiencing, which tends to be what we + +00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:53.860 +should do in software development. + +00:06:57.720 --> 00:06:58.220 +Instead of implementing the solve a problem. + +00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:02.500 +Sometimes It's fun to implement an idea. + +00:07:04.840 --> 00:07:05.220 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I think it's really the crux, + +00:07:06.740 --> 00:07:07.120 +really, when it comes to software + +00:07:08.760 --> 00:07:09.060 +development, because what is at the crux of + +00:07:09.520 --> 00:07:09.960 +any kind of engineering? + +00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:11.840 +Well, it's the problem you're trying to + +00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:13.680 +solve. If you've got 2 islands and you need + +00:07:14.440 --> 00:07:14.860 +to join them up together, + +00:07:15.840 --> 00:07:16.340 +well, I need to build a bridge. + +00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:17.660 +Now, obviously with software, + +00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:19.940 +we have problems that defy the law of + +00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:21.840 +physics, which is great because we get very + +00:07:23.520 --> 00:07:23.720 +complex problems that are very exciting to + +00:07:26.380 --> 00:07:26.880 +solve. But when it comes to onboarding people + +00:07:28.180 --> 00:07:28.680 +into those ways of solving problems, + +00:07:29.540 --> 00:07:30.040 +well, I think mentoring, + +00:07:32.980 --> 00:07:33.480 +The key behind mentoring is that together, + +00:07:35.280 --> 00:07:35.460 +we're going to look at a problem and we're + +00:07:37.200 --> 00:07:37.680 +going to try to see how high would fix it. + +00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:40.740 +And you're going to try to appreciate whether + +00:07:42.280 --> 00:07:42.440 +this is something you would do as well or + +00:07:43.260 --> 00:07:43.760 +would like to do. + +00:07:50.080 --> 00:07:50.580 +[Speaker 1]: Yep, Absolutely. Yeah, + +00:07:54.340 --> 00:07:54.480 +it's really taking time to walk with them on + +00:07:56.500 --> 00:07:57.000 +the journey to understand what's frustrating + +00:07:59.700 --> 00:08:00.040 +them. I have a coworker we've been working + +00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:01.740 +together for a very long time. + +00:08:05.280 --> 00:08:05.780 +She is not a fast navigator of her editor, + +00:08:08.860 --> 00:08:09.200 +but as we've talked, that's not where she's + +00:08:09.960 --> 00:08:10.460 +looking to get better. + +00:08:17.380 --> 00:08:17.680 +She's looking to get better at asking the + +00:08:20.500 --> 00:08:20.740 +questions of the clients early so that we + +00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:23.660 +don't go down long paths of implementation. + +00:08:27.940 --> 00:08:28.320 +So it's been great because she's not looking + +00:08:29.820 --> 00:08:30.060 +to get better at her text editor. + +00:08:32.500 --> 00:08:33.000 +She's adequate for how she navigates. + +00:08:34.700 --> 00:08:34.900 +Other people look and they're like, + +00:08:35.740 --> 00:08:36.179 +man, I want to do it faster. + +00:08:36.820 --> 00:08:37.120 +I want to do it different. + +00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:38.340 +I want to do it better. + +00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:39.980 +And then we have a different conversation. + +00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:44.720 +[Speaker 0]: Right. All right. Moving on to the next + +00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:47.320 +question. I've been using Emacs for about 30 + +00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:49.240 +years and I find it really difficult to + +00:08:50.860 --> 00:08:51.200 +figure out how to help people get started + +00:08:54.400 --> 00:08:54.600 +with it So I guess my question is the same as + +00:08:55.680 --> 00:08:55.900 +the green question right about it. + +00:08:57.900 --> 00:08:58.100 +I think it's slightly different though You + +00:09:00.860 --> 00:09:01.360 +could it is more about well go on please. + +00:09:01.500 --> 00:09:02.000 +Yeah + +00:09:06.900 --> 00:09:07.400 +[Speaker 1]: so My wife a while ago, + +00:09:10.680 --> 00:09:11.180 +talked about the idea of, + +00:09:15.860 --> 00:09:16.260 +relative to anybody, I am an expert or + +00:09:19.020 --> 00:09:19.200 +slightly more informed on a topic than the + +00:09:20.380 --> 00:09:20.880 +person quote behind me. + +00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:22.600 +And there's a person ahead of me who's + +00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:24.740 +slightly more informed than I am. + +00:09:27.880 --> 00:09:28.120 +And so what we're looking at is perhaps with + +00:09:28.820 --> 00:09:29.320 +30 years of experience, + +00:09:32.580 --> 00:09:32.780 +introducing someone to Emacs might be + +00:09:35.780 --> 00:09:35.920 +difficult because you've you're too much of + +00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:41.320 +an expert. So maybe the there's a an idea of + +00:09:42.380 --> 00:09:42.880 +like what are the principles of pedagogy. + +00:09:45.180 --> 00:09:45.360 +I know we that was talked about yesterday in + +00:09:47.180 --> 00:09:47.300 +a presentation about like here's a + +00:09:49.160 --> 00:09:49.280 +constraint, you're using Emacs for the + +00:09:54.660 --> 00:09:54.880 +course. But so it's that idea of sharing what + +00:09:56.880 --> 00:09:57.380 +you have, where you're at, + +00:10:00.220 --> 00:10:00.720 +will, I think by nature, + +00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:03.860 +move the entire queue of people, + +00:10:04.940 --> 00:10:05.380 +like they don't really exist. + +00:10:06.380 --> 00:10:06.680 +I mean, they do, but they don't. + +00:10:08.600 --> 00:10:09.100 +Behind you, it'll help move them together + +00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:10.820 +forward just a little bit. + +00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:13.940 +And maybe we all move the condition together. + +00:10:17.760 --> 00:10:18.240 +So It's not a only 1 person kind of thing. + +00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:22.540 +It's a mindset of improving shared + +00:10:22.540 --> 00:10:23.040 +understanding. + +00:10:26.520 --> 00:10:26.640 +[Speaker 0]: Exactly, and I'd like to come back on + +00:10:28.180 --> 00:10:28.680 +something that you mentioned in your answer, + +00:10:30.940 --> 00:10:31.440 +because it's, you know, + +00:10:33.060 --> 00:10:33.460 +what the person asking the question + +00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:35.740 +mentioned, 30 years of advance, + +00:10:36.620 --> 00:10:36.860 +basically, on starting Emacs. + +00:10:37.900 --> 00:10:38.400 +You know, that's a lot of time, + +00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:41.020 +And you tend to equate this to a massive gap + +00:10:42.440 --> 00:10:42.940 +in terms of skills between the 2 people. + +00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:47.840 +And whilst it's obvious that would be a gap + +00:10:50.280 --> 00:10:50.460 +of skills. You know, I find that learning in + +00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:55.460 +terms of pedagogy works best when the person + +00:10:58.180 --> 00:10:58.320 +doing the teaching is very close in terms of + +00:11:00.380 --> 00:11:00.880 +skill levels to the person being taught. + +00:11:02.620 --> 00:11:03.120 +Why is it the case? It's because it's much + +00:11:05.660 --> 00:11:05.800 +fresher in their memory what are the + +00:11:08.100 --> 00:11:08.300 +different elements that they have to go + +00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:09.940 +through to acquire a particular skill. + +00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:12.940 +To go a little bit into the theory, + +00:11:14.640 --> 00:11:15.060 +I'm not sure if you're familiar with Vygotsky + +00:11:16.380 --> 00:11:16.860 +or at least the I plus 1. + +00:11:17.640 --> 00:11:17.860 +Are you familiar with this, + +00:11:20.540 --> 00:11:21.040 +[Speaker 1]: I am not, go on. + +00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:23.000 +[Speaker 0]: Jeremy? So I used to be a teacher before, + +00:11:24.520 --> 00:11:24.960 +and it's 1 of the things they taught us. + +00:11:26.920 --> 00:11:27.340 +It's about the fact that when you are trying + +00:11:28.900 --> 00:11:29.400 +to make someone acquire a skill, + +00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:32.340 +I represents the current knowledge, + +00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:35.160 +and plus 1 is the thing that you should be + +00:11:38.920 --> 00:11:39.060 +teaching them and the theory behind it is + +00:11:41.820 --> 00:11:42.040 +that it's much easier to teach someone to + +00:11:44.260 --> 00:11:44.500 +teach something to someone when they only + +00:11:46.100 --> 00:11:46.460 +have to focus on plus 1 i.e. + +00:11:48.460 --> 00:11:48.900 +Something that is very close nearby to them + +00:11:50.580 --> 00:11:50.840 +If you go with something that is I plus 2, + +00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:53.740 +I plus 3, or god forbid I plus 10, + +00:11:55.760 --> 00:11:55.960 +it's going to be much harder for them to get + +00:11:58.100 --> 00:11:58.360 +to the understanding because the distance is + +00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:01.960 +much greater. And that's why I think + +00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:05.320 +mentoring can be taken in 2 ways. + +00:12:07.740 --> 00:12:07.860 +It could be a mentor who's merely ahead of + +00:12:10.380 --> 00:12:10.760 +you by plus 1, or it could be a mentor that + +00:12:12.040 --> 00:12:12.440 +is ahead of you by plus 10, + +00:12:14.380 --> 00:12:14.640 +but who has the understanding of what plus 1, + +00:12:15.800 --> 00:12:16.300 +plus 2, and plus 3 is. + +00:12:22.680 --> 00:12:23.160 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, and it can be very challenging to + +00:12:27.400 --> 00:12:27.540 +unwind that. I know if we think about all of + +00:12:33.540 --> 00:12:33.740 +our hands or input methods have a memory of + +00:12:35.920 --> 00:12:36.120 +something that I honestly couldn't tell you + +00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:38.940 +what it is. Right? Like, + +00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:40.740 +I know how to do it on a keyboard, + +00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:43.980 +right? We've internalized so much. + +00:12:47.900 --> 00:12:48.040 +And so, yeah, how to walk backward is a + +00:12:51.940 --> 00:12:52.200 +distinct challenge and being curious with + +00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:56.100 +them and close to them and not asking, + +00:13:00.300 --> 00:13:00.800 +trying to diffuse questions and not ask like + +00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:03.620 +leading, not overly leading. + +00:13:09.280 --> 00:13:09.780 +An example, early on in my mentoring career, + +00:13:11.260 --> 00:13:11.760 +I was working in a community project, + +00:13:14.280 --> 00:13:14.480 +and I really wanted to go in and say to + +00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:18.500 +everybody, why do we suck at sharing code? + +00:13:21.020 --> 00:13:21.520 +But instead I said, wait a minute, + +00:13:24.880 --> 00:13:25.080 +what would be the question I could ask the + +00:13:27.680 --> 00:13:28.180 +group in which I could then ask my question? + +00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:30.720 +So instead I went into the group and I said, + +00:13:32.560 --> 00:13:33.060 +how are we doing about sharing code? + +00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:37.620 +And collectively, we were able to establish + +00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:39.700 +we didn't feel very good about it. + +00:13:42.740 --> 00:13:43.240 +And that conversation now 9 years ago, + +00:13:47.020 --> 00:13:47.300 +helped move a process along for the last, + +00:13:50.220 --> 00:13:50.380 +like it gave it energy for 9 years of how + +00:13:51.560 --> 00:13:52.060 +we're sharing and how we're approaching + +00:13:58.260 --> 00:13:58.760 +stuff. So yeah, the curious questions are + +00:14:00.060 --> 00:14:00.560 +super helpful. + +00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:04.940 +[Speaker 0]: All right, lovely way to finish this point. + +00:14:06.940 --> 00:14:07.200 +We have about 10 more minutes so I'm glad + +00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:08.800 +that we have a little bit of extra time to + +00:14:10.640 --> 00:14:10.920 +answer the questions because we have a little + +00:14:13.740 --> 00:14:13.940 +more. All right, I'm gonna switch to the next + +00:14:15.160 --> 00:14:15.480 +question we can come back to people reacting + +00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:17.220 +to what you just said a little bit later. + +00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:17.640 +[Speaker 2]: Sure. + +00:14:20.640 --> 00:14:20.860 +[Speaker 0]: All right, have you encountered anyone that + +00:14:23.760 --> 00:14:24.000 +are being negative about the fact that you're + +00:14:26.400 --> 00:14:26.600 +using Emacs, assuming that they just don't + +00:14:28.740 --> 00:14:28.940 +know or have misconceptions about Emacs and + +00:14:30.340 --> 00:14:30.700 +nothing malicious? If so, + +00:14:32.220 --> 00:14:32.720 +how do you handle these kinds of people? + +00:14:40.640 --> 00:14:40.840 +[Speaker 1]: Sure, So at work, I get a gentle elbowing of + +00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:43.220 +like, oh, Jeremy's going to talk about Emacs + +00:14:45.900 --> 00:14:46.400 +again. So it's not entirely... + +00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:51.100 +Maybe it's a little dismissive, + +00:14:56.840 --> 00:14:57.340 +but I don't actually care because like it's + +00:15:00.160 --> 00:15:00.240 +like being, I don't know, + +00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:02.480 +it's like being made fun of for using a + +00:15:03.560 --> 00:15:04.060 +particular type of pen. + +00:15:05.680 --> 00:15:06.180 +Like goal is to write something, + +00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:09.580 +right? And I'm using a pen that gives me joy. + +00:15:11.740 --> 00:15:12.240 +When I talk with my mentees, + +00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:14.440 +like I want to meet them exactly where + +00:15:16.980 --> 00:15:17.200 +they're at with their code and like what + +00:15:20.860 --> 00:15:21.260 +they're comfortable with and help them remove + +00:15:23.100 --> 00:15:23.600 +any of that potential like inadequacy, + +00:15:27.800 --> 00:15:27.980 +sense of inadequacy or imposter syndrome or + +00:15:32.980 --> 00:15:33.480 +any of those things because The goal is to, + +00:15:36.380 --> 00:15:36.880 +for me, to be better at computering. + +00:15:39.800 --> 00:15:40.300 +Like hop on my computer. + +00:15:45.060 --> 00:15:45.220 +I want to be able to use it at a speed of + +00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:47.800 +thought that doesn't introduce a lot of + +00:15:50.660 --> 00:15:51.160 +friction. Another speaker talked about that + +00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:54.200 +using HyperBowl and a couple of plugins to + +00:15:55.260 --> 00:15:55.760 +write stream of consciousness. + +00:15:57.980 --> 00:15:58.480 +And that was an important consideration. + +00:16:01.060 --> 00:16:01.380 +I want my text editor to flow with me. + +00:16:02.160 --> 00:16:02.420 +And so I'm like, well, + +00:16:03.560 --> 00:16:04.060 +Emacs flows with me smooth. + +00:16:08.220 --> 00:16:08.720 +Like you can deride it all you want. + +00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:10.360 +It doesn't thread very well, + +00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:12.580 +but it's just me on this machine. + +00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:14.440 +I don't need it to overly thread, + +00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:16.220 +at least for my use cases. + +00:16:22.340 --> 00:16:22.600 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I can only agree 100% with what you've + +00:16:25.800 --> 00:16:26.300 +just said. And it's very easy to dismiss + +00:16:28.860 --> 00:16:29.160 +stuff like Vim or Emacs based on the very + +00:16:31.260 --> 00:16:31.760 +trite sentences that everyone use. + +00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:32.640 +But at the end of the day, + +00:16:33.540 --> 00:16:34.040 +I really like what you said. + +00:16:36.280 --> 00:16:36.780 +Those are just pencil that we're using to + +00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:39.280 +express ourselves. And we're doing something + +00:16:41.820 --> 00:16:42.080 +a little more fancy than just writing words + +00:16:43.680 --> 00:16:44.180 +on a page. But ultimately, + +00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:46.880 +It's just text at the very bottom. + +00:16:48.560 --> 00:16:49.060 +So whatever helps us write this test, + +00:16:50.540 --> 00:16:51.040 +this text more easily, + +00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:53.460 +you know, it's always good. + +00:16:56.680 --> 00:16:56.980 +Yeah. All right. Moving on to the next + +00:16:59.360 --> 00:16:59.820 +question. I love the attitudes and worldview + +00:17:02.980 --> 00:17:03.160 +that infuse your blog post and your talk this + +00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:05.900 +weekend. Learn something every week. + +00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:08.680 +It's cumulative. English class was the most + +00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:11.520 +important. What other advice do you have and + +00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:13.859 +how is it generalizable to those of us who + +00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:14.940 +are not devs? + +00:17:26.280 --> 00:17:26.780 +[Speaker 1]: Sure. So I think 1 of the really big changes + +00:17:29.140 --> 00:17:29.320 +for me, and I talked about this in the + +00:17:34.700 --> 00:17:35.200 +writing Q&A, is switching my blog from a + +00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:38.480 +topical 1 about role-playing games and board + +00:17:43.320 --> 00:17:43.480 +games into anything that I think I want to + +00:17:47.220 --> 00:17:47.440 +write. And that shift happened about the time + +00:17:50.380 --> 00:17:50.560 +that I was really exploring using Emacs for + +00:17:54.060 --> 00:17:54.560 +writing. And so previously I had, + +00:17:57.860 --> 00:17:58.360 +I would write blog posts in Markdown using, + +00:18:00.560 --> 00:18:01.060 +or I would write it in the web interface. + +00:18:06.820 --> 00:18:07.060 +And getting to the point where my writing was + +00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:08.980 +the same as my coding, + +00:18:12.040 --> 00:18:12.540 +was the same as my RSS consumption, + +00:18:15.060 --> 00:18:15.560 +was the same of a lot of these things, + +00:18:21.260 --> 00:18:21.560 +freed up my general interests so that they + +00:18:23.860 --> 00:18:24.360 +all can kind of play in that space. + +00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:27.940 +So and that's the, I think, + +00:18:33.080 --> 00:18:33.540 +Feynman said, like, his notes are his + +00:18:35.860 --> 00:18:36.360 +thoughts. It's not him thinking, + +00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:38.980 +I mean, they are him thinking as well. + +00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:41.180 +So it's really framing it that way. + +00:18:44.180 --> 00:18:44.680 +And then for not devs, + +00:18:49.060 --> 00:18:49.240 +My daughter has been doing screenwriting and + +00:18:53.180 --> 00:18:53.480 +she just had her school license for the tool + +00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:55.220 +that they use for writing screenplays. + +00:18:57.400 --> 00:18:57.660 +She had to pay for it on her own. + +00:18:59.540 --> 00:18:59.680 +And I was like, hey, let's take a look at + +00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:01.500 +Emacs. There's a package for this. + +00:19:03.320 --> 00:19:03.820 +Maybe it makes sense to you. + +00:19:09.520 --> 00:19:09.720 +So I think the, really to summarize it is + +00:19:12.280 --> 00:19:12.780 +like the broad curiosity in like, + +00:19:14.320 --> 00:19:14.820 +I have a liberal arts degree, + +00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:21.420 +I have barely any computer science classwork + +00:19:23.940 --> 00:19:24.400 +practice. I have a lot of practical + +00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:26.700 +experience doing software development, + +00:19:28.320 --> 00:19:28.820 +but theory is minimal. + +00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:32.520 +Instead, I look to things like Lord of the + +00:19:35.340 --> 00:19:35.840 +Rings or role-playing games or poetry or + +00:19:40.520 --> 00:19:41.020 +history or whatever and be curious and Then + +00:19:47.260 --> 00:19:47.760 +be playful The introduction of git locally + +00:19:51.060 --> 00:19:51.340 +where I can just have a Git repo means my + +00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:57.340 +text is recoverable. I don't, + +00:19:59.060 --> 00:19:59.320 +I can play. I'll just break it, + +00:20:00.320 --> 00:20:00.800 +I'll change it. It's software, + +00:20:02.860 --> 00:20:03.360 +let it be soft. It's not hard. + +00:20:05.740 --> 00:20:06.100 +It can be hard to work with it, + +00:20:08.080 --> 00:20:08.520 +but let it be soft. Let it be pruned, + +00:20:09.780 --> 00:20:10.120 +let it go away, let it die, + +00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:11.700 +let it come back. + +00:20:16.360 --> 00:20:16.800 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, That's a lovely attitude to have. + +00:20:20.980 --> 00:20:21.160 +I mean, I've already talked about my past as + +00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:23.860 +an English major in 1 of the EmacsConf talks, + +00:20:26.520 --> 00:20:26.780 +but just like you, I don't have a comp sci + +00:20:30.140 --> 00:20:30.200 +education. I just started with needing a + +00:20:32.120 --> 00:20:32.620 +better pen, and that was about 10 years ago. + +00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:37.020 +And now I find myself hosting Emacs Cons, + +00:20:38.760 --> 00:20:39.140 +but it was a very incremental process, + +00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:40.660 +a very cumulative process, + +00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:43.220 +to reuse the word that we used before. + +00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:48.740 +And What I also like about people outside of + +00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:50.140 +CompSight using Emacs, + +00:20:53.300 --> 00:20:53.480 +and we've got plenty of such examples in the + +00:20:54.940 --> 00:20:55.320 +presentations we've had this year, + +00:20:57.720 --> 00:20:57.940 +but also last year, is that you get so many + +00:21:00.540 --> 00:21:00.920 +different windows into how people are using + +00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:03.480 +Emacs, and it kind of harks back to what I + +00:21:06.340 --> 00:21:06.560 +was saying before about Emacs being a + +00:21:08.380 --> 00:21:08.880 +platform with many horizontal packages + +00:21:10.560 --> 00:21:11.060 +permitting any kind of workflow imaginable + +00:21:13.580 --> 00:21:14.080 +and some people are going to gravitate + +00:21:16.280 --> 00:21:16.640 +towards old mode. I think it was your sister + +00:21:18.520 --> 00:21:19.020 +that you mentioned that was looking into + +00:21:20.760 --> 00:21:21.260 +packages for writing screenplays. + +00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:23.520 +Well, we've got such a thing in Emacs. + +00:21:26.260 --> 00:21:26.760 +I mean, a screenplay is just a monospace font + +00:21:27.900 --> 00:21:28.400 +with some fancy formatting. + +00:21:29.300 --> 00:21:29.800 +It's not very complicated. + +00:21:32.460 --> 00:21:32.960 +And if you can get behind, + +00:21:36.280 --> 00:21:36.720 +you know, someone using such a stable format + +00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:38.940 +for writing screenplay with many rules, + +00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:40.840 +but ultimately all the screenplay look the + +00:21:42.520 --> 00:21:42.780 +same, well, Emacs is kind of just the same. + +00:21:45.060 --> 00:21:45.480 +It's about standardizing the way you edit + +00:21:47.760 --> 00:21:48.000 +text. So I think your sister was already half + +00:21:51.420 --> 00:21:51.760 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, it was my it was my my daughter. + +00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:52.840 +I'm trying to sell her on. + +00:21:53.320 --> 00:21:53.800 +[Speaker 0]: on the idea. Oh, no, sorry. + +00:21:56.200 --> 00:21:56.640 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, she also picked up programming just 1 + +00:21:58.140 --> 00:21:58.640 +day and was like, I forget that. + +00:22:01.360 --> 00:22:01.860 +Like she was playing with a stage manager + +00:22:03.420 --> 00:22:03.580 +programming thing or like have a little + +00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:05.140 +avatars moving around. + +00:22:11.280 --> 00:22:11.480 +And so she's got a predisposition to like the + +00:22:15.620 --> 00:22:16.020 +craft of things. And I think that's another + +00:22:18.320 --> 00:22:18.820 +aspect is like, I'm not, + +00:22:21.080 --> 00:22:21.580 +I mean, I appreciate science. + +00:22:23.040 --> 00:22:23.540 +I'm here for a scientific approach, + +00:22:27.940 --> 00:22:28.440 +but I also Really enjoy the craft of things + +00:22:32.500 --> 00:22:33.000 +Playing with it Like this is my playground. + +00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:36.180 +I love kind of hacking on it and looking at + +00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:39.360 +packages and Seeing how I might use it pick + +00:22:42.120 --> 00:22:42.340 +it up for a little bit and then maybe I + +00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:43.380 +forget about it + +00:22:47.940 --> 00:22:48.440 +[Speaker 0]: Right, well Jeremy I think that was Lovely + +00:22:49.860 --> 00:22:50.180 +finish. Oh, sorry plasma. + +00:22:51.380 --> 00:22:51.760 +Oh, sorry. I thought he was someone on Mumble + +00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:54.780 +talking to me. I'm actually going to have to + +00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:56.600 +be sorry because we only have about 50 + +00:22:58.000 --> 00:22:58.320 +seconds until we move on to the next talk. + +00:22:59.600 --> 00:23:00.040 +But please, Plasma Strike, + +00:23:01.120 --> 00:23:01.560 +If you want to ask your question to Jeremy, + +00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:03.220 +by all means, stay in the room. + +00:23:04.120 --> 00:23:04.620 +[Speaker 1]: Yep, I'll be here. + +00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:07.900 +[Speaker 0]: And we'll be recording all of this and we'll + +00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:09.940 +put this later on the talk page. + +00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:12.560 +So Jeremy, I'll have to say bye now because I + +00:23:13.660 --> 00:23:14.160 +need to prepare the next room. + +00:23:16.320 --> 00:23:16.440 +But It was lovely talking with you and thank + +00:23:17.040 --> 00:23:17.540 +you for all your answers. + +00:23:19.040 --> 00:23:19.540 +[Speaker 1]: Absolutely. Thank you. + +00:23:21.220 --> 00:23:21.720 +[Speaker 0]: Bye-bye. Bye. + +NOTE Start of section to review + +00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:26.580 +[Speaker 2]: See you. Hello. One of the things with Emacs is + +00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:28.900 +it's not... It's like when you change the + +00:23:30.860 --> 00:23:31.260 +file management, you just change very, + +00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:33.980 +very small amounts of what exactly you need, + +00:23:38.040 --> 00:23:38.360 +you want to change. Like you go from text + +00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:43.860 +editing to your file manager, + +00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:45.220 +you're not changing your theme, + +00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:47.180 +you're not changing your font. + +00:23:49.940 --> 00:23:50.060 +[Speaker 3]: And you + +00:23:52.360 --> 00:23:52.500 +[Speaker 2]: use your bookmarks, you use your bookmarks in + +00:23:54.340 --> 00:23:54.840 +your emails, you use your bookmarks in your + +00:23:59.380 --> 00:23:59.880 +org-mod documents, you use it in E-dub, + +00:24:02.460 --> 00:24:02.960 +W-W buffers if you use that, + +00:24:06.760 --> 00:24:06.940 +but it's just the, Yeah, + +00:24:10.080 --> 00:24:10.580 +it's just the least amount of Incremental + +00:24:10.940 --> 00:24:11.440 +changes + +00:24:14.620 --> 00:24:14.900 +[Speaker 1]: yeah, you're when you were talking about like + +00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:18.980 +the Reducing friction like turn off editing + +00:24:22.280 --> 00:24:22.480 +or not editing, but auto correct while you're + +00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:25.940 +typing, it's absolutely spot on. + +00:24:29.800 --> 00:24:30.300 +You're wanting to get whatever is flowing + +00:24:31.280 --> 00:24:31.720 +needs to keep flowing, + +00:24:33.700 --> 00:24:34.200 +like as a programmer or as a creative, + +00:24:38.100 --> 00:24:38.600 +anytime I can hit flow is my goal. + +00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:42.740 +And so paying attention to what removes flow + +00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:48.980 +or hinders it or saps energy and that unified + +00:24:52.800 --> 00:24:53.080 +environment of Emacs is really helpful to + +00:24:57.260 --> 00:24:57.760 +maintain that. So yeah. + +00:25:02.300 --> 00:25:02.580 +[Speaker 2]: I think it's about speed and then once after + +00:25:04.040 --> 00:25:04.540 +you get some of that, then you're like, + +00:25:06.420 --> 00:25:06.920 +well, yeah, it's important, + +00:25:09.320 --> 00:25:09.820 +but this is like the last thing I care about. + +00:25:14.280 --> 00:25:14.780 +[Speaker 1]: Right. Speed is all like, + +00:25:19.700 --> 00:25:20.200 +Yeah, there's a quote that I love called, + +00:25:22.940 --> 00:25:23.440 +I forget the author. It's, + +00:25:30.060 --> 00:25:30.260 +there is a connection between slowness and + +00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:34.460 +remembering and fastness and forgetting. + +00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:40.180 +And the slowness is an interesting, + +00:25:43.520 --> 00:25:43.840 +like it's, I am moving fast in Emacs because + +00:25:46.020 --> 00:25:46.520 +I've forgotten how I'm doing it. + +00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:48.420 +I just do it now, right? + +00:25:52.120 --> 00:25:52.360 +And then the slowness of like being in my + +00:25:57.540 --> 00:25:57.720 +thought and staying on that stream is where I + +00:26:01.700 --> 00:26:02.200 +want to be and ride whatever that pathway is. + +00:26:07.540 --> 00:26:07.680 +And a text editor is still hard to do that + +00:26:10.260 --> 00:26:10.520 +because if I were using a pen and paper it's + +00:26:11.600 --> 00:26:12.100 +more cumbersome to auto-edit. + +00:26:18.620 --> 00:26:18.800 +But I can't get it out without losing my + +00:26:21.180 --> 00:26:21.440 +thinking. And so I ended up having to type + +00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:21.940 +it. + +00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:25.640 +[Speaker 3]: Something I've been experimenting with is + +00:26:26.600 --> 00:26:27.100 +using, well, recording. + +00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:29.700 +Some other people are using dictation for + +00:26:31.760 --> 00:26:32.260 +this to just get the blur out of the ideas + +00:26:35.280 --> 00:26:35.500 +and you can go back and glean some of that + +00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:36.700 +stuff out of it. + +00:26:41.320 --> 00:26:41.680 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, what I will do when I'm capturing like + +00:26:44.760 --> 00:26:45.260 +quotes or epigraphs is I will almost always + +00:26:47.760 --> 00:26:47.960 +turn on dictation because I got a book in 1 + +00:26:52.020 --> 00:26:52.520 +hand. So I'm like, on goes the typing. + +00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:56.940 +And yeah, that is, there's a, + +00:26:59.900 --> 00:27:00.180 +I'm really thankful that that exists as well. + +00:27:01.260 --> 00:27:01.760 +Like my mother is blind. + +00:27:05.020 --> 00:27:05.520 +And so having that helps her and me + +00:27:08.560 --> 00:27:09.060 +communicate Through text because we're both + +00:27:12.900 --> 00:27:13.400 +able to appreciate it And use it in a way + +00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:15.980 +that is accessible for both of us + +00:27:19.120 --> 00:27:19.620 +[Speaker 3]: Go ahead + +00:27:23.100 --> 00:27:23.600 +[Speaker 2]: There's the L feet to package which will + +00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:25.200 +which will allow you to both of us. + +00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:25.440 +There's the ElfieTube package which will + +00:27:28.320 --> 00:27:28.820 +allow you to subscribe to a YouTube channel + +00:27:32.500 --> 00:27:33.000 +and then download the subtitles and give you + +00:27:36.760 --> 00:27:36.940 +remote control access to the MPV player to + +00:27:37.700 --> 00:27:38.200 +watch the YouTube thing. + +00:27:41.420 --> 00:27:41.920 +And considering you have a really big + +00:27:44.580 --> 00:27:44.680 +subtitle thing that you can click at the + +00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:45.660 +various different places, + +00:27:47.860 --> 00:27:48.280 +it's really surprising about how different + +00:27:49.300 --> 00:27:49.800 +that makes YouTube feel. + +00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:51.180 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah I've... + +00:27:54.140 --> 00:27:54.340 +[Speaker 2]: And then on top of that about how much like + +00:27:57.660 --> 00:27:57.800 +if you've used it why would you never have + +00:27:59.160 --> 00:27:59.660 +thought about that before because it's... + +00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:01.220 +Right. It's even better. + +00:28:04.840 --> 00:28:05.340 +[Speaker 1]: Right absolutely. Sasha? + +00:28:10.080 --> 00:28:10.440 +[Speaker 3]: Oh I would say I do use the caption slot also + +00:28:11.580 --> 00:28:12.040 +when I'm skimming through stuff for Emacs + +00:28:13.740 --> 00:28:14.240 +News. But for books specifically, + +00:28:18.420 --> 00:28:18.600 +I often use Google Lens to just capture the + +00:28:21.900 --> 00:28:22.200 +text and copy it so that I don't have to deal + +00:28:24.140 --> 00:28:24.640 +with recognition errors or whatever. + +00:28:25.760 --> 00:28:26.260 +really useful. + +00:28:31.780 --> 00:28:32.280 +[Speaker 1]: It's just So 1 of my hobbies is role-playing + +00:28:35.980 --> 00:28:36.100 +games and the tabular data that is in the + +00:28:38.940 --> 00:28:39.440 +role-playing books is never in correct, + +00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:43.380 +like copy it out. And so I was like this is + +00:28:46.260 --> 00:28:46.680 +really annoying And I ended up taking + +00:28:47.720 --> 00:28:48.220 +screenshots on my machine, + +00:28:50.280 --> 00:28:50.780 +running Tesseract to pipe it in, + +00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:53.980 +and then using Emacs to like edit it because + +00:28:57.940 --> 00:28:58.100 +Tesseract adheres to the column format that + +00:29:00.520 --> 00:29:00.680 +I'm looking for. And I'm really thankful that + +00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:06.100 +we're at a place where the OCR is in good + +00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:10.120 +shape. That's part of my day job is working + +00:29:14.180 --> 00:29:14.680 +on some old documents that OCR is good, + +00:29:18.100 --> 00:29:18.600 +but not great because of like their 19th + +00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:23.920 +century documents, but having that ability to + +00:29:28.080 --> 00:29:28.220 +me is really powerful because we're gonna be + +00:29:32.580 --> 00:29:32.900 +able to share that text And also then once + +00:29:35.860 --> 00:29:36.360 +it's understood in what it's ASCII or UTF-8 + +00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:39.500 +encoding is, it can be translated as well. + +00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:42.460 +So we can make it even more generally + +00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:46.720 +available, which I think is a nice thing to + +00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:47.220 +have. + +00:29:51.820 --> 00:29:52.320 +[Speaker 3]: I wanted to go back to the topic of mentoring + +00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:54.240 +since that's something that I'm very much + +00:29:55.940 --> 00:29:56.400 +interested in figuring out how to facilitate + +00:29:56.980 --> 00:29:57.480 +in the Emacs community. + +00:30:00.520 --> 00:30:00.720 +Other people have been working on kind of + +00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:03.900 +remote mentoring initiatives with Emacs + +00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:07.860 +Buddy. And there are meetups as well that + +00:30:09.140 --> 00:30:09.340 +kind of get that sense of like, + +00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:10.840 +you know, what people are doing things and + +00:30:12.040 --> 00:30:12.500 +then somebody can look over their shoulder + +00:30:14.060 --> 00:30:14.260 +and say, hey, have you ever thought about + +00:30:15.060 --> 00:30:15.560 +[Speaker 1]: Right. + +00:30:17.780 --> 00:30:18.040 +[Speaker 3]: this? Is there any things that you can can + +00:30:20.320 --> 00:30:20.820 +suggest specifically in the context of this + +00:30:23.180 --> 00:30:23.680 +kind of mentoring over a distance? + +00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:26.180 +Any chance you've thought about it? + +00:30:30.800 --> 00:30:30.920 +[Speaker 1]: I'm on the Emacs buddy repo and I've had a + +00:30:32.600 --> 00:30:33.100 +handful of people reach out to me. + +00:30:37.700 --> 00:30:37.920 +Most often we start with email and every so + +00:30:38.980 --> 00:30:39.320 +often it'll be like, hey, + +00:30:44.340 --> 00:30:44.840 +let's hop on some kind of video or audio, + +00:30:47.320 --> 00:30:47.820 +even just done phone calls. + +00:30:53.140 --> 00:30:53.480 +Yeah, I haven't done any of the like shared + +00:30:57.220 --> 00:30:57.500 +buffer stuff. I know like at work we have + +00:30:59.700 --> 00:31:00.200 +replit where we can use that. + +00:31:02.500 --> 00:31:03.000 +Seeing the presentation on CDRT, + +00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:04.940 +I was like, oh, that's really great. + +00:31:10.760 --> 00:31:11.140 +But what I found is being able to see + +00:31:15.280 --> 00:31:15.720 +someone, I don't get to see them typing, + +00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:17.840 +but I get to see the results of what they're + +00:31:18.840 --> 00:31:19.340 +doing on the computer. + +00:31:22.840 --> 00:31:23.040 +You know paying attention to that is the big + +00:31:26.040 --> 00:31:26.540 +1 to help them think of a different way. + +00:31:28.940 --> 00:31:29.160 +Depending on where they're at when they're + +00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:33.460 +writing if they are like at a pause point, + +00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:35.460 +if I'm at my best, I'll be like, + +00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:38.360 +so what are you thinking? + +00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:41.140 +Where are you stuck? Cause maybe they're + +00:31:43.040 --> 00:31:43.280 +trying to navigate somewhere and that starts + +00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:46.720 +to create a point for a conversation of like, + +00:31:48.280 --> 00:31:48.780 +how do I go from here to there? + +00:31:57.340 --> 00:31:57.520 +And so it's looking for those moments is + +00:31:58.840 --> 00:31:59.340 +where I try to operate. + +00:32:03.740 --> 00:32:04.240 +[Speaker 3]: And sometimes, you know, + +00:32:05.380 --> 00:32:05.600 +so there's kind of like, + +00:32:06.760 --> 00:32:07.120 +how do you go from here to there? + +00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:08.500 +And sometimes even the, + +00:32:12.380 --> 00:32:12.540 +what there should I be going for is a + +00:32:15.060 --> 00:32:15.160 +challenge, right? Because especially with + +00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:16.980 +Emacs newbies, they might not necessarily + +00:32:19.340 --> 00:32:19.540 +know what's possible or what's nearby in + +00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:21.700 +terms of what their current knowledge is. + +00:32:23.760 --> 00:32:24.120 +And that's an interesting thing to map out. + +00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:26.400 +Is that something that you've thought about + +00:32:29.020 --> 00:32:29.280 +and as you're conversing with all these + +00:32:29.280 --> 00:32:29.780 +people? + +00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:37.840 +[Speaker 1]: The main thing, the main function that I do + +00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:38.940 +talk, I talked about this, + +00:32:41.240 --> 00:32:41.740 +I think in the, I did in the talk where it's, + +00:32:46.320 --> 00:32:46.660 +I need to jump between the test and the + +00:32:50.900 --> 00:32:51.400 +implementation. And since 2005, + +00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:56.480 +I've had that. And I watch folks not have + +00:32:57.880 --> 00:32:58.100 +that. I'm just like, Oh, + +00:33:00.380 --> 00:33:00.540 +my goodness, like there's a convention in the + +00:33:02.500 --> 00:33:02.720 +language we work in. Let's get that + +00:33:04.080 --> 00:33:04.580 +installed. Let's get it going. + +00:33:07.600 --> 00:33:07.840 +Like that's 1 thing, that's 1 access I know + +00:33:11.740 --> 00:33:11.880 +they're gonna go to. Another 1 is the jump to + +00:33:14.280 --> 00:33:14.600 +definition. And I've never gotten like C + +00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:16.960 +tags. I haven't really spent time on that, + +00:33:18.600 --> 00:33:19.100 +but with the advent of LSP, + +00:33:21.040 --> 00:33:21.540 +it works a lot better. + +00:33:24.520 --> 00:33:25.020 +And so I try to get people to use that. + +00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:30.640 +And what I've noticed weirdly is like VS + +00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:34.400 +code, it doesn't work as well as I would have + +00:33:36.340 --> 00:33:36.500 +thought. And there's lots of like errors and + +00:33:38.100 --> 00:33:38.560 +warnings popping up in the bottom corner. + +00:33:41.120 --> 00:33:41.280 +So I'm like, well, you gotta pay attention to + +00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:46.140 +that. But I try not to get into anybody's + +00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:48.120 +business about like, I'm like, + +00:33:48.900 --> 00:33:49.120 +maybe we could fix that. + +00:33:50.020 --> 00:33:50.280 +Maybe we can clean it up, + +00:33:51.740 --> 00:33:52.240 +but it's your, you know, + +00:33:54.440 --> 00:33:54.940 +it's your car you're driving. + +00:33:56.320 --> 00:33:56.760 +I'm just long for a ride. + +00:33:57.620 --> 00:33:58.120 +It's safe, we're fine. + +00:34:01.360 --> 00:34:01.860 +So yeah, that jumped to definition. + +00:34:07.940 --> 00:34:08.440 +And then the, I mean, search in project, + +00:34:10.080 --> 00:34:10.580 +like everybody understanding that. + +00:34:15.219 --> 00:34:15.380 +But I feel that the, like I mentioned in the + +00:34:17.980 --> 00:34:18.480 +talk, the advent of orderless is just huge. + +00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:21.659 +I did not realize how much I loved it because + +00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:24.480 +I don't have to think about things and can + +00:34:28.080 --> 00:34:28.580 +have slightly more forgiving default + +00:34:34.340 --> 00:34:34.840 +searches. Yeah, it's hard. + +00:34:39.159 --> 00:34:39.440 +The principles of organizing 10 things versus + +00:34:41.040 --> 00:34:41.540 +100 versus 1,000 versus 10,000 + +00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:44.940 +are just, they're not the same. + +00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:52.540 +[Speaker 2]: A common hang up for, that would easily make + +00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:54.820 +you skip off of Emacs, + +00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:01.040 +Org Mode, Hyperbole is if you go into any of + +00:35:03.680 --> 00:35:04.040 +those with the mindset of I'm going to master + +00:35:05.080 --> 00:35:05.580 +it all before I use it. + +00:35:06.640 --> 00:35:07.140 +That's not going to work. + +00:35:13.660 --> 00:35:13.860 +[Speaker 1]: Absolutely. I was terrified of org mode when + +00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:15.060 +I started because I'm like, + +00:35:16.720 --> 00:35:17.040 +I don't need to organize my life. + +00:35:20.460 --> 00:35:20.960 +I need to like type. And then that, + +00:35:24.520 --> 00:35:25.020 +yes, incremental. What did I find helpful? + +00:35:28.580 --> 00:35:29.080 +[Speaker 2]: It's for the, for the Linux CLI toolbox, + +00:35:30.860 --> 00:35:31.360 +but you have to look at them as more of just, + +00:35:34.640 --> 00:35:35.140 +I have a whole bunch of tools available to me + +00:35:39.140 --> 00:35:39.360 +and I'll just pick them up as I have a + +00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:42.680 +problem and as I, and as the tool can be + +00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:44.940 +useful for this problem and incrementally. + +00:35:47.700 --> 00:35:48.200 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. It's + +00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:55.080 +[Speaker 3]: actually, so, in fact, + +00:35:56.180 --> 00:35:56.400 +when when I'm mentoring people, + +00:35:58.440 --> 00:35:58.580 +I have to take a step back and say, + +00:36:00.520 --> 00:36:00.760 +OK, what are we with the note taking thing + +00:36:01.640 --> 00:36:02.140 +that you mentioned in your talk. + +00:36:03.120 --> 00:36:03.480 +How do you like to take notes? + +00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:05.140 +How do you like to keep track of the things + +00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:06.600 +that you want to work on when you have an + +00:36:07.540 --> 00:36:08.040 +idea? Where does it go? + +00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:10.820 +Because if you improve that practice, + +00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:13.180 +and especially if you can sneak some literate + +00:36:14.540 --> 00:36:15.040 +programming in without them really noticing, + +00:36:17.860 --> 00:36:18.160 +then it becomes the thing that they can use + +00:36:18.900 --> 00:36:19.400 +to learn more efficiently. + +00:36:23.200 --> 00:36:23.700 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. I was presenting at, + +00:36:26.600 --> 00:36:27.100 +I wasn't presenting at this seminar, + +00:36:30.560 --> 00:36:30.920 +but I attended it and it was a crash course + +00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:32.300 +in command line tools. + +00:36:35.520 --> 00:36:36.020 +And I didn't, I mean, I went there to listen + +00:36:38.660 --> 00:36:38.800 +and there was a point where the people were + +00:36:40.560 --> 00:36:41.060 +like, I use this command line tool. + +00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:42.860 +I'm not a programmer, I'm a librarian, + +00:36:45.040 --> 00:36:45.060 +I'm an archivist. I use it, + +00:36:47.080 --> 00:36:47.580 +I'm like, great, I'm gonna remember this. + +00:36:49.640 --> 00:36:49.820 +And then I forget about it and I might use it + +00:36:54.340 --> 00:36:54.520 +6 months from now. And so I tried to + +00:36:56.880 --> 00:36:57.380 +encourage everybody, like come up with, + +00:37:00.580 --> 00:37:00.740 +like you have a degree in knowledge and + +00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:02.820 +information, management and organization, + +00:37:06.160 --> 00:37:06.660 +introspect, right? Spend some time on it. + +00:37:09.740 --> 00:37:10.240 +Think about what is a way that I can do this + +00:37:13.180 --> 00:37:13.360 +and ask questions to get to the point where + +00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:19.240 +you can create a discoverable inventory of + +00:37:22.500 --> 00:37:23.000 +the tools you've used and what that means. + +00:37:26.160 --> 00:37:26.660 +And my answer was, I use literate programming + +00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:31.300 +or I shove it in my bin directory in GitHub + +00:37:34.080 --> 00:37:34.300 +and like, I don't know if I'll remember it, + +00:37:35.860 --> 00:37:36.020 +but I can go there every now and then and be + +00:37:37.120 --> 00:37:37.620 +like, oh yeah, that command. + +00:37:44.220 --> 00:37:44.720 +So note taking is the most critical component + +00:37:46.620 --> 00:37:47.120 +of any number of work. + +00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:52.360 +[Speaker 3]: Sometimes I wonder if we can maybe + +00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:54.500 +externalize some of all this mentoring + +00:37:57.520 --> 00:37:57.720 +insight and kind of like this choose your own + +00:37:59.700 --> 00:37:59.920 +adventure thing, where the person says, + +00:38:01.200 --> 00:38:01.700 +OK, this is what I got at the moment. + +00:38:03.460 --> 00:38:03.960 +And then through a series of diagnostic + +00:38:05.740 --> 00:38:06.220 +questions, we can figure out what hurts, + +00:38:08.040 --> 00:38:08.220 +right? Where is the thing that they would + +00:38:08.980 --> 00:38:09.240 +like to learn more about? + +00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:10.460 +And then, okay, if that hurts, + +00:38:12.620 --> 00:38:13.120 +try this and keep that manageable. + +00:38:15.720 --> 00:38:15.880 +And if there's only a way to also be able to + +00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:17.720 +capture each person's state, + +00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:19.840 +the things that they know about and have + +00:38:20.980 --> 00:38:21.480 +absorbed into their habits. + +00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:23.200 +So you can say, right, + +00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:25.760 +you know, my recommendation for someone who's + +00:38:28.580 --> 00:38:28.940 +brand new to org is not the same as somebody + +00:38:30.060 --> 00:38:30.480 +who's like, okay, they've got their agendas + +00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:31.800 +and everything set up already. + +00:38:33.680 --> 00:38:34.180 +Just how do we represent that as like WISPs? + +00:38:39.520 --> 00:38:39.720 +[Speaker 1]: I've given up on trying to map that. + +00:38:43.180 --> 00:38:43.440 +I like the one-on-one conversations and + +00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:47.980 +discovery. And I think that's the part where + +00:38:51.980 --> 00:38:52.120 +you're looking at, you're asking about how do + +00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:56.320 +we make the process and like I heard, + +00:38:58.860 --> 00:38:59.040 +like how do we help equip those who want to + +00:39:01.560 --> 00:39:01.960 +mentor as well, right? + +00:39:05.900 --> 00:39:05.970 +Making that, reducing the barrier in a way. + +00:39:06.040 --> 00:39:06.180 +[Speaker 2]: I don't + +00:39:08.240 --> 00:39:08.740 +[Speaker 3]: know, I think what you said about enjoying + +00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:10.680 +the conversation and the fact that it is + +00:39:12.080 --> 00:39:12.580 +really unique for each person, + +00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:15.260 +each situation that comes up. + +00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:18.840 +I suspect what it just comes down to is more + +00:39:21.560 --> 00:39:22.020 +like capturing the good stuff of each + +00:39:23.160 --> 00:39:23.660 +mentoring session or whatever. + +00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:26.120 +Maybe it's getting the mentees to write very + +00:39:27.700 --> 00:39:27.900 +short blog posts about what they learned this + +00:39:28.780 --> 00:39:29.280 +week or whatever else. + +00:39:30.900 --> 00:39:31.400 +And then, oh, yeah, you know, + +00:39:33.700 --> 00:39:33.900 +we ran into the same problem 3 months ago. + +00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:36.440 +Let me go look it up. And then that becomes a + +00:39:37.080 --> 00:39:37.580 +reusable segment. + +00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:41.780 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, when I worked at a coding bootcamp, + +00:39:46.420 --> 00:39:46.720 +they tried to encourage the mentors to say, + +00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:49.820 +like write a blog posts for the mentees. + +00:39:57.160 --> 00:39:57.380 +And that was, some of them did, + +00:40:01.980 --> 00:40:02.140 +but it was intimidating because like they + +00:40:03.260 --> 00:40:03.760 +didn't wanna, I don't know. + +00:40:06.900 --> 00:40:07.360 +Are we enculturated in an education system + +00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:09.920 +where we can't get it wrong or we need to + +00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:11.980 +look like we're more of an expert than we + +00:40:15.720 --> 00:40:16.220 +are? I don't know. I have a lot of like, + +00:40:17.720 --> 00:40:17.960 +I'm a middle aged white guy, + +00:40:20.140 --> 00:40:20.640 +I've got a lot of background and privilege in + +00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:25.680 +my career. So like, it's not as scary to put + +00:40:28.620 --> 00:40:28.860 +something forward for myself as it might be + +00:40:31.080 --> 00:40:31.240 +as like a woman in tech or a minority in + +00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:35.900 +tech, because that's a different place. + +00:40:38.900 --> 00:40:39.400 +And I want to really get done with that. + +00:40:40.760 --> 00:40:41.260 +I don't like that at all. + +00:40:43.820 --> 00:40:44.320 +And I would love our, like, + +00:40:46.640 --> 00:40:47.140 +just write. And it doesn't have to be public, + +00:40:48.540 --> 00:40:49.040 +right? You don't have to make it public, + +00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:52.380 +but if you make it discoverable to yourself, + +00:40:58.320 --> 00:40:58.820 +that's the big thing. And 1 of my coworkers, + +00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:05.020 +She doesn't blog, but she definitely has a + +00:41:07.200 --> 00:41:07.480 +large knowledge base of stuff that she + +00:41:08.980 --> 00:41:09.140 +references because she's pulling out all + +00:41:10.520 --> 00:41:10.760 +kinds of stuff and I'm like whatever you're + +00:41:11.120 --> 00:41:11.620 +doing is working. + +00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:18.420 +[Speaker 2]: I'm trying to have something. + +00:41:23.680 --> 00:41:24.180 +There's a good opportunity with the Emacs + +00:41:25.680 --> 00:41:26.180 +conference to accomplish this. + +00:41:28.420 --> 00:41:28.920 +So like if you make like a, + +00:41:31.640 --> 00:41:32.140 +because 1 of the things with it is, + +00:41:36.600 --> 00:41:37.080 +Sasha, you do a really good job of using all. + +00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:39.000 +You're the 1 who has the Emacs buffer with + +00:41:39.780 --> 00:41:40.080 +the time on it, right? + +00:41:41.820 --> 00:41:41.980 +Is that your screen that's being recorded for + +00:41:45.860 --> 00:41:46.360 +that? Because you have a really good example + +00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:50.600 +of a really consolidated emacs workflow that + +00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:53.920 +works really good with the Emacs conference + +00:41:56.520 --> 00:41:56.800 +so if you had like a page that described how + +00:42:00.100 --> 00:42:00.460 +you did all that stuff in the emacs + +00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:04.360 +conference like on that and then we then you + +00:42:06.140 --> 00:42:06.380 +did even more stuff with that. + +00:42:09.560 --> 00:42:10.060 +Like you do the org mode file that you can + +00:42:12.140 --> 00:42:12.340 +just put straight into your agenda for your + +00:42:14.720 --> 00:42:14.940 +time zone. I used that. + +00:42:17.540 --> 00:42:17.800 +That was really nice, just because it allowed + +00:42:19.600 --> 00:42:19.900 +me to reorganize and see how all the talks + +00:42:21.580 --> 00:42:21.880 +would work together, and which ones I wanted + +00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:26.060 +to do. You could add Org Mode to do tags with + +00:42:31.020 --> 00:42:31.520 +that, to say, plan to watch, + +00:42:36.080 --> 00:42:36.360 +I want to re-watch but I have to skip it + +00:42:37.540 --> 00:42:38.000 +because there's another talk I'm watching, + +00:42:40.760 --> 00:42:41.260 +you know, like a couple tags don't care about + +00:42:43.940 --> 00:42:44.200 +so that people can easily tag all the talks + +00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:47.860 +that they care about on top of that. + +00:42:52.660 --> 00:42:53.160 +And then with, I'm going to try to email + +00:42:54.660 --> 00:42:54.900 +these ideas on it too, + +00:42:57.980 --> 00:42:58.480 +but then you can also, + +00:43:00.940 --> 00:43:01.440 +you have the either pad questions, + +00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:04.440 +you could put all those in org-mode documents + +00:43:08.300 --> 00:43:08.760 +with crdt.el, post all those in the Emacs + +00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:11.600 +conference and then people could use that to + +00:43:13.820 --> 00:43:13.980 +edit all the documents at the same time so + +00:43:15.160 --> 00:43:15.660 +then everybody's actually collaboratively + +00:43:20.180 --> 00:43:20.440 +editing. And then people have all the + +00:43:24.520 --> 00:43:25.020 +scaffolding for if you do the Emacs meetings, + +00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:27.940 +buddy meetings, because they know exactly how + +00:43:29.820 --> 00:43:30.180 +to set it all up with that. + +00:43:34.040 --> 00:43:34.540 +And then you combine it with any number of + +00:43:38.040 --> 00:43:38.360 +whatever chat video program so that people + +00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:40.280 +can talk and watch each other. + +00:43:45.420 --> 00:43:45.920 +[Speaker 3]: I have a presentation later on EmacsConf + +00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:49.200 +infrastructure and I will capture the note + +00:43:51.380 --> 00:43:51.600 +And maybe I can include a mini tutorial in + +00:43:53.460 --> 00:43:53.800 +the schedule org so that people can be like, + +00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:55.680 +hey, by the way, you could refile these + +00:43:58.860 --> 00:43:59.120 +things into your own org files or tag them + +00:44:01.520 --> 00:44:01.720 +and here's a list thingy that filters your + +00:44:03.420 --> 00:44:03.740 +agenda by your tag or whatever, + +00:44:04.940 --> 00:44:05.200 +it'll be fine. But it's, + +00:44:06.100 --> 00:44:06.600 +you know, it's, it's kind of like, + +00:44:09.640 --> 00:44:09.800 +it is, you're right. It is an opportunity to + +00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:12.800 +expose people to more things that they could + +00:44:14.620 --> 00:44:15.120 +do in kind of a scaffolded way. + +00:44:16.600 --> 00:44:16.880 +That's interesting stuff, + +00:44:18.780 --> 00:44:19.040 +but I, your point actually driving also going + +00:44:21.180 --> 00:44:21.680 +back to previous parts of conversation about, + +00:44:24.340 --> 00:44:24.546 +it's difficult for people to share. + +00:44:26.420 --> 00:44:26.720 +When you realize, like I keep telling + +00:44:28.380 --> 00:44:28.880 +everyone, hey, if you blog about Emacs, + +00:44:30.720 --> 00:44:30.920 +you'll not only learn things for yourself and + +00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:31.920 +make things more searchable, + +00:44:33.520 --> 00:44:33.740 +other people will come by and tell you even + +00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:35.340 +better ways of doing things, + +00:44:36.940 --> 00:44:37.080 +which is something that always happens to me + +00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:37.960 +too, and I'm posting this. + +00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:38.900 +Has that ever happened? + +00:44:39.960 --> 00:44:40.460 +I'm sure that happens to you. + +00:44:45.020 --> 00:44:45.520 +[Speaker 1]: It's great. I love getting those things like, + +00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:49.700 +yeah, Howard's presentation on the game + +00:44:51.720 --> 00:44:52.000 +stuff. I'm like, I'm going to go explore that + +00:44:54.560 --> 00:44:55.060 +now. Because it's my little house. + +00:44:57.280 --> 00:44:57.780 +[Speaker 3]: You just have to make it less intimidating, + +00:45:00.600 --> 00:45:01.100 +right? And kind of change people's perception + +00:45:03.420 --> 00:45:03.540 +that, oh, blogging or sharing tutorials or + +00:45:05.460 --> 00:45:05.860 +whatever, that's then when you're an expert, + +00:45:06.340 --> 00:45:06.840 +when you're an experienced, + +00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:09.720 +to rather working out loud, + +00:45:11.520 --> 00:45:11.740 +thinking out loud, this is just that I'm + +00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:13.300 +learning along the way. + +00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:16.000 +And it might not be the most efficient way to + +00:45:17.720 --> 00:45:17.880 +do things, but this is what I'm doing right + +00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:18.380 +now. + +00:45:23.940 --> 00:45:24.180 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. And I had a handful of times where I + +00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:26.000 +posted something and someone was like, + +00:45:27.620 --> 00:45:27.900 +Oh yeah, this is, this would have you tried + +00:45:30.060 --> 00:45:30.420 +this? Or I'm like, I didn't even know that + +00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:32.940 +existed. That makes this easier. + +00:45:37.540 --> 00:45:37.740 +[Speaker 3]: I've written this like little hack and I'm + +00:45:38.860 --> 00:45:39.140 +very proud of it because it's clever. + +00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:39.920 +And then someone's like, + +00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:41.240 +Oh yeah, there's a package for that. + +00:45:42.720 --> 00:45:43.220 +It's called this. Right? + +00:45:43.660 --> 00:45:44.160 +[Speaker 1]: Thank you. Right? Yeah. + +00:45:49.380 --> 00:45:49.880 +It's just it's Yeah, it the fantastic part + +00:45:54.140 --> 00:45:54.240 +it. I played Legos as a kid and me and my + +00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:56.260 +friends would play Legos at the house. + +00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:01.300 +And Emacs has this like feeling of playing + +00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:04.540 +Legos with a group of people across the + +00:46:06.120 --> 00:46:06.620 +world. In fact, 1 of my current, + +00:46:09.080 --> 00:46:09.580 +well, 1 of my best friends now, + +00:46:14.040 --> 00:46:14.540 +we met a year ago. And it turns out we both + +00:46:18.460 --> 00:46:18.620 +love Emacs. We talk every Thursday and we + +00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:20.420 +hang out and we talk poetry. + +00:46:23.500 --> 00:46:24.000 +We talk Tom Petty. We talk Emacs. + +00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:25.420 +We talk software development. + +00:46:26.840 --> 00:46:27.340 +He does Python. I do Ruby. + +00:46:29.860 --> 00:46:30.360 +Just anything and everything. + +00:46:36.660 --> 00:46:36.820 +And it's also we both are curious because we + +00:46:38.100 --> 00:46:38.600 +don't use it the same way. + +00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:44.420 +And we like how we accomplish a task. + +00:46:47.020 --> 00:46:47.220 +I think that's the fascinating part to me is + +00:46:50.140 --> 00:46:50.580 +we each get to explore our way to interact + +00:46:54.060 --> 00:46:54.560 +with the computer uniquely by whatever + +00:46:55.860 --> 00:46:56.360 +pathways are in our brain. + +00:46:58.340 --> 00:46:58.520 +We see stuff, we pick it up, + +00:47:00.060 --> 00:47:00.240 +and we're like, that doesn't quite work for + +00:47:01.960 --> 00:47:02.460 +me, or, oh, that worked really well. + +00:47:06.660 --> 00:47:07.160 +Fascinating, like, I don't know, + +00:47:08.200 --> 00:47:08.700 +shared art installation. + +00:47:13.740 --> 00:47:14.020 +[Speaker 3]: I think you're onto something that I also + +00:47:15.460 --> 00:47:15.640 +resonate with. 1 of the things that + +00:47:18.820 --> 00:47:19.060 +fascinates me about Emacs is all these + +00:47:21.220 --> 00:47:21.720 +people's configuration jobs are crystallized + +00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:25.080 +workflows. And it's really when you talk to + +00:47:26.580 --> 00:47:27.080 +them and you see how they're using it, + +00:47:29.200 --> 00:47:29.540 +and you understand a little bit of their + +00:47:32.140 --> 00:47:32.320 +story and things that they need, + +00:47:33.160 --> 00:47:33.660 +the ideas they've had, + +00:47:35.640 --> 00:47:36.140 +that's really fascinating. + +00:47:37.580 --> 00:47:37.800 +And I think that's 1 of the things that makes + +00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:40.080 +it possible to be perpetually curious about + +00:47:42.660 --> 00:47:43.160 +Emacs, because it's not just the, + +00:47:43.820 --> 00:47:44.060 +you know, this is the, + +00:47:45.520 --> 00:47:45.920 +these are all the Lego pieces there are, + +00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:47.920 +but you have this community of people who are + +00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:50.820 +using these Lego bricks in such fascinating + +00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:53.940 +ways and always inventing new things for it. + +00:47:56.100 --> 00:47:56.600 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, new colors, new shapes, + +00:47:59.640 --> 00:48:00.140 +they show up. It's great. + +00:48:03.200 --> 00:48:03.400 +[Speaker 2]: It's like powered twice or something like + +00:48:06.040 --> 00:48:06.220 +that because it's like you can use Emacs with + +00:48:09.720 --> 00:48:10.220 +a thousand different customizations and then + +00:48:12.340 --> 00:48:12.720 +you can interact with people who can each + +00:48:16.540 --> 00:48:17.040 +also Use Emacs in a thousand different ways + +00:48:17.520 --> 00:48:17.800 +[Speaker 1]: Mm-hmm, Right, + +00:48:20.200 --> 00:48:20.280 +[Speaker 2]: Then you can both learn from each other and + +00:48:21.720 --> 00:48:22.040 +that can go a thousand different ways. + +00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:24.500 +So it's like, it's like powering your + +00:48:25.240 --> 00:48:25.680 +[Speaker 3]: Yep. + +00:48:27.400 --> 00:48:27.700 +[Speaker 2]: Something along those lines with each other + +00:48:30.720 --> 00:48:30.920 +and like how different and how much you can + +00:48:31.560 --> 00:48:32.060 +learn from it. + +00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:38.980 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, the kind of touching back to the mentee + +00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:42.380 +that I have who went, he had originally + +00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:44.980 +started in Vim and then did VS code. + +00:48:47.420 --> 00:48:47.600 +And then we were talking and he was gonna go + +00:48:50.420 --> 00:48:50.860 +into Emacs and I didn't have a, + +00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:52.360 +I mean, sure, that'd be great. + +00:48:53.860 --> 00:48:54.060 +But he's like, I don't have a lot of time. + +00:48:56.120 --> 00:48:56.620 +And I'm like, well, go back to the place that + +00:48:57.840 --> 00:48:58.340 +you have that experience. + +00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:01.280 +And he did, And then he started writing Lua + +00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:03.340 +plugins. He was like, this is so much fun. + +00:49:05.380 --> 00:49:05.880 +I'm like, good, you're on the right path. + +00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:11.340 +Like maybe there'll be space like over time, + +00:49:13.860 --> 00:49:14.360 +how Lua plugins and Emacs, + +00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:17.260 +you know, who knows? I know that Lua, + +00:49:19.040 --> 00:49:19.540 +you can use Fennel to write Lisp. + +00:49:24.240 --> 00:49:24.740 +In you write Lisp and it will transpile + +00:49:29.060 --> 00:49:29.560 +Fennel to Lua. I forget how that plays out, + +00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:32.080 +but we're not too far away from those 2 + +00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:34.980 +things being able to play. + +00:49:39.020 --> 00:49:39.520 +But I guess the question is, + +00:49:41.980 --> 00:49:42.480 +does it need to? I don't know. + +00:49:44.540 --> 00:49:45.040 +[Speaker 3]: Yeah, I mean, even without direct code + +00:49:47.620 --> 00:49:48.120 +translation, the cross-pollination of ideas + +00:49:51.460 --> 00:49:51.960 +is certainly enough. I love the fact that + +00:49:54.720 --> 00:49:54.840 +people are borrowing ideas from VS Code and + +00:49:57.840 --> 00:49:58.040 +from Vim and people look at Emacs videos and + +00:49:58.840 --> 00:49:59.020 +other things and say, hey, + +00:49:59.860 --> 00:50:00.060 +that's a cool thing in Emacs, + +00:50:01.240 --> 00:50:01.680 +but I don't want to ever use Emacs. + +00:50:03.240 --> 00:50:03.740 +I'm going to do that whole thing in Vim. + +00:50:04.600 --> 00:50:05.100 +And I think that's fantastic. + +00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:07.820 +[Speaker 1]: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, + +00:50:10.640 --> 00:50:11.140 +monocultures die. They just do. + +00:50:16.840 --> 00:50:17.340 +And computer software and computer industry + +00:50:24.120 --> 00:50:24.280 +pushes towards monoculture because of it + +00:50:26.660 --> 00:50:27.160 +wants the highest efficiency. + +00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:31.780 +And I'm like, I'm not, + +00:50:33.640 --> 00:50:34.140 +I mean, sometimes I'm here for that, + +00:50:35.600 --> 00:50:35.980 +but most of the time I'm like, + +00:50:37.120 --> 00:50:37.620 +I want the bumps and the warts. + +00:50:40.680 --> 00:50:41.180 +I want the art, the human interaction, + +00:50:42.720 --> 00:50:43.220 +the like, why are we trying to accomplish + +00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:43.860 +this? + +00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:46.620 +[Speaker 2]: It determines, It depends on how you + +00:50:49.640 --> 00:50:50.140 +determine efficiency because Emacs is far + +00:50:52.840 --> 00:50:53.240 +Even if Emacs isn't multi-threaded is far + +00:50:56.980 --> 00:50:57.480 +more efficient because because of the mental + +00:51:00.060 --> 00:51:00.220 +model shifts because you're able to play and + +00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:04.600 +tweak with it and then have as much of a + +00:51:07.160 --> 00:51:07.360 +mental model shift for each task change that + +00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:11.260 +you want. Like, yeah, I want my file manager + +00:51:16.260 --> 00:51:16.760 +to not be an editable text buffer. + +00:51:18.660 --> 00:51:19.120 +Although sometimes when I want to rename + +00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:20.820 +files, I want it to be that. + +00:51:23.800 --> 00:51:24.300 +[Speaker 1]: Right. Yeah, and really, + +00:51:26.640 --> 00:51:27.040 +like, to be clear, I like the idea of Emacs + +00:51:29.060 --> 00:51:29.340 +as a projection of, like, + +00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:30.660 +how I think about stuff. + +00:51:33.780 --> 00:51:33.960 +So it's that whatever my neurons have made a + +00:51:37.040 --> 00:51:37.280 +good pathway for, I can have Emacs flow with + +00:51:41.660 --> 00:51:42.160 +me. That efficiency side is I want a factory, + +00:51:43.080 --> 00:51:43.480 +I want to stamp out widgets, + +00:51:44.540 --> 00:51:44.720 +I want them to be the same, + +00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:45.650 +chop, chop, chop, chop, + +00:51:51.860 --> 00:51:52.360 +chop, chop. That emacs runs in its spirit + +00:51:57.180 --> 00:51:57.440 +along with vim contrary to that and I like + +00:51:57.440 --> 00:51:57.940 +that + +00:52:00.530 --> 00:52:00.720 +[Speaker 2]: emacs is a 1 of the things with the like the + +00:52:03.480 --> 00:52:03.680 +mental model of Emacs is you should look at + +00:52:06.180 --> 00:52:06.660 +Emacs like this is probably something that + +00:52:08.100 --> 00:52:08.320 +people should think about when they are + +00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:10.940 +introducing Emacs to other people is Emacs is + +00:52:15.720 --> 00:52:15.900 +a treasure trove of conflicting ways of + +00:52:18.080 --> 00:52:18.580 +solving the same problem so you get, + +00:52:22.040 --> 00:52:22.280 +so you can individuate yourself on how you + +00:52:23.520 --> 00:52:24.020 +actually want to solve that problem. + +00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:25.600 +[Speaker 3]: Do you + +00:52:26.700 --> 00:52:27.200 +[Speaker 2]: want Vim bindings or not? + +00:52:30.200 --> 00:52:30.580 +You get to choose. Or do you want Meow + +00:52:31.900 --> 00:52:32.400 +bindings? You can choose. + +00:52:34.780 --> 00:52:35.280 +[Speaker 1]: Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. + +00:52:38.780 --> 00:52:39.040 +I, I came, I'm, I consider my, + +00:52:42.380 --> 00:52:42.660 +I, I lament because in 2005 I almost picked + +00:52:46.100 --> 00:52:46.240 +up Emacs and it wasn't until 2020 that I + +00:52:49.040 --> 00:52:49.440 +picked it up. And fortunately I picked it up + +00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:54.500 +when I did because I was able to look at + +00:52:58.020 --> 00:52:58.520 +things I had previously accomplished and find + +00:53:05.140 --> 00:53:05.420 +analogs And things like Helm and Ivy were + +00:53:08.940 --> 00:53:09.440 +both 2 different ways of doing it and consult + +00:53:11.600 --> 00:53:12.100 +and then, or Selectrum and then consult, + +00:53:15.860 --> 00:53:16.060 +like they all had these different ways And it + +00:53:18.900 --> 00:53:19.400 +felt great because I could find the thing + +00:53:24.520 --> 00:53:25.020 +that worked for me. And they're close, + +00:53:27.680 --> 00:53:27.840 +but then they also like branch out and do + +00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:30.860 +things differently. And it was so fascinating + +00:53:34.860 --> 00:53:35.020 +to explore each of those and spend an hour or + +00:53:39.100 --> 00:53:39.360 +2 on a primary task in seeing where that + +00:53:42.040 --> 00:53:42.540 +little thread went. It's great. + +00:53:47.200 --> 00:53:47.600 +[Speaker 3]: So tell me a bit more about how you got into + +00:53:51.040 --> 00:53:51.300 +Emacs. What pulled you + +00:53:55.120 --> 00:53:55.620 +[Speaker 1]: in? Yeah, this is a great little moment. + +00:53:59.680 --> 00:54:00.180 +I started in TextMate, + +00:54:03.280 --> 00:54:03.420 +That's kind of where I would say the + +00:54:06.460 --> 00:54:06.660 +beginning for coding for open source and + +00:54:07.840 --> 00:54:08.340 +using open source software. + +00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:11.920 +Sorry, using open source frameworks and + +00:54:14.540 --> 00:54:15.040 +languages. So TextMate to Sublime, + +00:54:18.260 --> 00:54:18.580 +basically TextMate couldn't search very well + +00:54:20.740 --> 00:54:21.060 +at the time. It was getting bogged down. + +00:54:21.640 --> 00:54:22.080 +So I moved to Sublime, + +00:54:23.260 --> 00:54:23.760 +which solved it, felt well, + +00:54:27.900 --> 00:54:28.400 +carried the same UI look with me. + +00:54:30.680 --> 00:54:31.180 +And then when I was at a conference, + +00:54:34.540 --> 00:54:34.860 +there was a talk about using an open source + +00:54:36.600 --> 00:54:36.880 +editor. I was like, yeah, + +00:54:38.720 --> 00:54:39.220 +I need to do that. I really need to. + +00:54:43.080 --> 00:54:43.260 +And Adam was viable. I was like, + +00:54:44.320 --> 00:54:44.820 +Oh, this is really close. + +00:54:47.120 --> 00:54:47.360 +I'll use it. And I didn't think too much + +00:54:49.540 --> 00:54:49.680 +about it. And then the writing was on the + +00:54:51.120 --> 00:54:51.620 +wall, that Adam is going away. + +00:54:55.760 --> 00:54:56.040 +And I was like, I need to find an open source + +00:54:57.100 --> 00:54:57.600 +editor that speaks to me. + +00:54:59.200 --> 00:54:59.440 +And I said, all right, + +00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:01.260 +Vim, This is my fifth time. + +00:55:06.300 --> 00:55:06.800 +I will try. And I gave an earnest 2 weeks. + +00:55:09.060 --> 00:55:09.440 +And I'm just like, I cannot get this mental + +00:55:11.600 --> 00:55:11.840 +model in my head. So I'm like, + +00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:13.200 +all right, I set it down. + +00:55:14.540 --> 00:55:15.040 +I can use Vim, I'm comfortable. + +00:55:15.940 --> 00:55:16.360 +I think it's a great tool, + +00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:19.500 +but my mental model doesn't map well there. + +00:55:21.040 --> 00:55:21.420 +And I'm like, all right, + +00:55:24.780 --> 00:55:25.280 +here we go, VS code. All right, + +00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:28.520 +you're fine. But I feel like I might + +00:55:31.340 --> 00:55:31.500 +accidentally charge my credit card in the + +00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:33.500 +text editor on the default installation. + +00:55:38.680 --> 00:55:39.180 +And that was alluded to by in 1 of the talks, + +00:55:46.120 --> 00:55:46.620 +I forget who he German about mandating Emacs + +00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:48.500 +in his computer science classes. + +00:55:51.020 --> 00:55:51.220 +He mentioned like the Microsoft Office or + +00:55:54.060 --> 00:55:54.560 +Microsoft Marketplace felt like it was there. + +00:55:58.860 --> 00:55:59.060 +So that was 1, but the moment where I was + +00:56:02.380 --> 00:56:02.880 +like, oh, hell no, VS Code. + +00:56:08.520 --> 00:56:08.940 +Or I wanted to use a commit from the command + +00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:12.780 +palette, and it brought up an HTML text input + +00:56:15.060 --> 00:56:15.560 +area, and it was 30 characters. + +00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:23.500 +And in that moment, I saw several things. + +00:56:27.040 --> 00:56:27.140 +1, I'm like, no, that's terrible because I + +00:56:28.100 --> 00:56:28.600 +want to write something meaningful. + +00:56:33.640 --> 00:56:33.900 +2, this is the behavior that this tool is + +00:56:38.960 --> 00:56:39.240 +modeling. That tells me that history and like + +00:56:41.320 --> 00:56:41.820 +how it is built is not important. + +00:56:47.160 --> 00:56:47.320 +And yes, I can fix it and get around it. + +00:56:49.240 --> 00:56:49.740 +And I kind of did. And I was like, + +00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:51.860 +the principles are just, + +00:56:53.680 --> 00:56:54.180 +they're there. And then also understanding + +00:56:56.100 --> 00:56:56.600 +like there's a bunch of telemetry underneath + +00:56:58.860 --> 00:56:59.360 +it. So I used VS Codium, + +00:57:00.240 --> 00:57:00.740 +there's still telemetry. + +00:57:03.340 --> 00:57:03.840 +And I was like, all right, + +00:57:07.380 --> 00:57:07.880 +2005 Jeremy, let's go try Emacs, + +00:57:08.940 --> 00:57:09.440 +let's see if we can do it. + +00:57:13.860 --> 00:57:14.360 +And I hopped in, I grabbed Space Max. + +00:57:16.640 --> 00:57:17.020 +I was Like, yeah, this works pretty well. + +00:57:18.740 --> 00:57:18.960 +Like, I don't know how to use the keys very + +00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:21.380 +well. I'm figuring it out. + +00:57:26.040 --> 00:57:26.400 +And. And I was like, you know what? + +00:57:27.340 --> 00:57:27.840 +Why don't I do the tutorial? + +00:57:30.860 --> 00:57:31.360 +And it was the tutorial that hooked me. + +00:57:36.820 --> 00:57:37.320 +Not because everything made 100% sense + +00:57:42.440 --> 00:57:42.620 +because Emacs is old. It had a lot of + +00:57:45.420 --> 00:57:45.920 +language that was hard to internalize, + +00:57:50.500 --> 00:57:50.740 +but it presented it in a conversational I'm + +00:57:52.360 --> 00:57:52.600 +gonna meet you where you're at and we're + +00:57:53.440 --> 00:57:53.940 +gonna walk with it together. + +00:57:56.480 --> 00:57:56.980 +And then when I was done with the tutorial, + +00:57:58.420 --> 00:57:58.740 +I said, you know, Space Max, + +00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:00.060 +I don't understand it. + +00:58:00.920 --> 00:58:01.420 +And it's got some performance. + +00:58:04.180 --> 00:58:04.300 +It looks like there's like extra stuff that I + +00:58:08.420 --> 00:58:08.920 +may not need. So I went vanilla, + +00:58:11.780 --> 00:58:12.280 +nothing Emacs and just started working. + +00:58:14.060 --> 00:58:14.560 +I was like, well, how do you do this? + +00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:17.460 +[Speaker 2]: Although 5 minutes of Space Max or any of + +00:58:19.600 --> 00:58:20.100 +those Emacs distribution shows you + +00:58:22.360 --> 00:58:22.860 +unequivocally how different it can be. + +00:58:25.880 --> 00:58:26.380 +[Speaker 1]: It was, it was, it was so amazing, + +00:58:31.600 --> 00:58:32.100 +and it was so good. But I knew my nature was, + +00:58:34.780 --> 00:58:35.140 +I was frustrated in, like I wrote an Atom + +00:58:37.780 --> 00:58:38.280 +package, and that was awful. + +00:58:42.860 --> 00:58:43.360 +It was so terrible. But I knew what I wanted. + +00:58:48.280 --> 00:58:48.480 +And then I wrote, I started writing a VS code + +00:58:49.640 --> 00:58:49.840 +and I'm like, oh no, no, + +00:58:50.800 --> 00:58:51.300 +no, we're not here for this. + +00:58:55.520 --> 00:58:55.800 +And so, yeah, SpaceMax showed me like this + +00:59:00.600 --> 00:59:00.760 +can look and feel like a space that I used to + +00:59:03.920 --> 00:59:04.420 +be in. And then it has more functionality, + +00:59:07.440 --> 00:59:07.940 +more stuff. It's gonna be great. + +00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:10.380 +And then I just was like, + +00:59:11.880 --> 00:59:12.380 +I'm gonna go find my own. + +00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:16.200 +I'm really happy that I took the path because + +00:59:19.300 --> 00:59:19.640 +I just worked, wrote, and I'm like, + +00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:21.380 +I bet you this, I bet you the tool, + +00:59:22.540 --> 00:59:22.960 +I know it can do this because it, + +00:59:24.620 --> 00:59:25.120 +you know, text me, did this or Adam, + +00:59:27.800 --> 00:59:28.300 +I'm gonna go, I went on to Melpa and I found + +00:59:29.440 --> 00:59:29.940 +a couple different things. + +00:59:31.120 --> 00:59:31.440 +I'm like, all right, let's try them. + +00:59:32.320 --> 00:59:32.640 +I'm like, that's the 1, + +00:59:34.480 --> 00:59:34.980 +great. Roll it in, keep working. + +00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:36.500 +I know it can do this. + +00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:40.160 +Find a package. And so I built up this sense + +00:59:46.060 --> 00:59:46.160 +of the packages and my strategy was go to + +00:59:49.680 --> 00:59:49.940 +Melpa, look at, that was the 1 that showed + +00:59:52.540 --> 00:59:53.040 +up, look at the number of downloads. + +00:59:54.520 --> 00:59:54.960 +So I'm like, what's the high stuff? + +00:59:55.900 --> 00:59:56.400 +What really gets used? + +00:59:57.680 --> 00:59:58.180 +There's something there. + +01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:00.760 +And then also look at what was most recently + +01:00:03.420 --> 01:00:03.580 +updated. So kind of pivot on those along with + +01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:07.260 +a keyword search and I found the tools that + +01:00:17.780 --> 01:00:18.100 +worked well. But it really came down to like + +01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:20.460 +that VS Code I was almost in, + +01:00:24.400 --> 01:00:24.640 +but I've been around long enough to know what + +01:00:25.560 --> 01:00:26.060 +Microsoft will do. + +01:00:32.240 --> 01:00:32.540 +[Speaker 2]: For me, I was always like customizing things. + +01:00:34.600 --> 01:00:35.100 +I think I saw some interesting emacs videos. + +01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:42.720 +I wanted to try Well, I wanted to try working + +01:00:44.500 --> 01:00:44.720 +more with the keyboard and not need I think + +01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:47.300 +[Speaker 1]: mm-hmm + +01:00:51.180 --> 01:00:51.680 +[Speaker 2]: the mouse on a laptop And so I was looking + +01:00:54.380 --> 01:00:54.520 +explicitly for ways to just work on the + +01:00:56.920 --> 01:00:57.400 +keyboard only, which meant that I wasn't + +01:00:59.060 --> 01:00:59.560 +looking for programs that followed Cua, + +01:01:04.400 --> 01:01:04.900 +which really leaves you like 2 options, + +01:01:10.960 --> 01:01:11.380 +Vim and Emacs. And when I looked at the 2, + +01:01:13.940 --> 01:01:14.100 +I saw 1 of the big differentiating factors I + +01:01:15.660 --> 01:01:16.020 +saw was Tramp, which was, + +01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:18.600 +oh, you mean I get a SSH into a machine and + +01:01:19.840 --> 01:01:20.340 +have my customizations too? + +01:01:22.740 --> 01:01:23.240 +[Speaker 1]: Yep. Yeah. + +01:01:29.140 --> 01:01:29.540 +[Speaker 2]: And then I started using Emacs more and more. + +01:01:34.440 --> 01:01:34.860 +Eventually I combined that with a tiling + +01:01:36.400 --> 01:01:36.900 +window manager, NixOS, + +01:01:40.840 --> 01:01:41.040 +and started banishing as much of the GUI as I + +01:01:44.060 --> 01:01:44.560 +possibly could, running MPV or VLC, + +01:01:49.180 --> 01:01:49.400 +so I could edit so that my config files could + +01:01:53.720 --> 01:01:54.020 +be keyboard oriented. My settings config + +01:01:55.920 --> 01:01:56.420 +menus are now keyboard oriented. + +01:02:00.860 --> 01:02:01.080 +And yeah, that was the incremental process of + +01:02:04.400 --> 01:02:04.900 +just, yeah, making the computer nicer, + +01:02:06.680 --> 01:02:06.860 +more efficient, and then you figure out all + +01:02:08.080 --> 01:02:08.580 +the other advantages of the... + +01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:13.780 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. How did you get in to it, + +01:02:18.940 --> 01:02:19.440 +[Speaker 2]: Oh, you're lost. + +01:02:21.840 --> 01:02:22.340 +[Speaker 1]: Sasha? Your sound is gone. + +01:02:27.345 --> 01:02:27.845 +[Speaker 3]: Sorry, my face mute button. + +01:02:29.600 --> 01:02:29.800 +Okay, I'll tell you that story, + +01:02:30.840 --> 01:02:31.080 +I get thought out of my head, + +01:02:32.780 --> 01:02:33.240 +so I forget it. But what you described, + +01:02:34.900 --> 01:02:35.080 +Jerry, about kind of starting with the + +01:02:37.340 --> 01:02:37.540 +distribution and then pulling back and + +01:02:39.140 --> 01:02:39.520 +starting with vanilla and building up, + +01:02:41.040 --> 01:02:41.320 +kind of close the stories that I've heard + +01:02:42.980 --> 01:02:43.480 +from a lot of people in the community where + +01:02:46.600 --> 01:02:46.800 +the distribution gives them kind of an end + +01:02:48.140 --> 01:02:48.640 +goal, at least work requirements, + +01:02:50.280 --> 01:02:50.600 +So get the stuff done and they're not + +01:02:52.260 --> 01:02:52.760 +slugging through the weeds around the start. + +01:02:55.440 --> 01:02:55.760 +I have a hard time modifying it because + +01:02:57.440 --> 01:02:57.720 +modifying the distribution itself is very + +01:02:59.140 --> 01:02:59.640 +different from the tools they see. + +01:03:01.520 --> 01:03:01.740 +They feel like they want to understand the + +01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:02.820 +different possible part. + +01:03:04.240 --> 01:03:04.540 +And so then they pull back and say, + +01:03:06.300 --> 01:03:06.800 +okay, I've got this thing that can use + +01:03:08.360 --> 01:03:08.680 +everything to just get some quick work done, + +01:03:10.380 --> 01:03:10.760 +but I have this thing that I can call, + +01:03:13.500 --> 01:03:13.680 +that's mine. And I understand because I'm + +01:03:15.960 --> 01:03:16.460 +building it up from the ground up. + +01:03:19.540 --> 01:03:19.640 +Okay, so that's like, oh, + +01:03:21.500 --> 01:03:21.660 +interesting, there's a lot of people who are + +01:03:23.940 --> 01:03:24.280 +like that, and it really helps them to both + +01:03:27.240 --> 01:03:27.620 +have that insight, which is see through + +01:03:29.540 --> 01:03:29.780 +distributions and also videos of other + +01:03:32.060 --> 01:03:32.220 +people's workflows and press kind of + +01:03:34.080 --> 01:03:34.500 +conference presentations often about + +01:03:35.140 --> 01:03:35.540 +completely different topics, + +01:03:37.540 --> 01:03:37.700 +right? So someone whizzing through Ruby on + +01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:40.420 +Rails or whatever else and doing all of this. + +01:03:43.580 --> 01:03:44.040 +But also having 1 help them break out, + +01:03:46.560 --> 01:03:46.760 +okay, well, there's a lot of work from where + +01:03:47.900 --> 01:03:48.160 +I am to where that is. + +01:03:49.740 --> 01:03:50.240 +How do I do it without being overwhelmed? + +01:03:51.400 --> 01:03:52.960 +Because if they try to learn everything, + +01:03:55.520 --> 01:03:55.760 +they'll go crazy. And then they'll fall. + +01:03:57.500 --> 01:03:58.000 +And the brain is super important. + +01:04:01.500 --> 01:04:01.860 +And how I got into this whole eMac thing was + +01:04:03.520 --> 01:04:03.780 +I was reading all the computer science books + +01:04:06.180 --> 01:04:06.480 +in the university library and 1 of the Unix + +01:04:09.160 --> 01:04:09.360 +power tools had a chapter on Emacs and had + +01:04:11.040 --> 01:04:11.320 +them you know well there's another type of + +01:04:14.440 --> 01:04:14.760 +whatever. Okay that's interesting so I went + +01:04:17.080 --> 01:04:17.320 +and tried it out But the reason I really got + +01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:19.780 +into it was because I was using John Wigley's + +01:04:23.520 --> 01:04:23.760 +Planner Mode. This was before Org Mode came + +01:04:25.320 --> 01:04:25.600 +about. So Planner Mode was a link. + +01:04:27.040 --> 01:04:27.540 +I said, hey, this is great. + +01:04:29.380 --> 01:04:29.880 +I'm looking for ways to help out. + +01:04:31.560 --> 01:04:32.060 +If you need help verifying any bugs, + +01:04:34.160 --> 01:04:34.660 +you know, send it to me and I'll do the + +01:04:37.540 --> 01:04:37.840 +figuring out. He's an author and an inventor. + +01:04:37.960 --> 01:04:38.100 +[Speaker 2]: And then + +01:04:39.480 --> 01:04:39.980 +[Speaker 3]: he made me the miniature for it. + +01:04:42.720 --> 01:04:42.880 +So I'm like, okay. And then that's how I got + +01:04:44.680 --> 01:04:45.140 +to know this wonderful community of people + +01:04:46.840 --> 01:04:47.340 +who customize emacs so much. + +01:04:51.680 --> 01:04:52.180 +And it just goes there because really, + +01:04:54.100 --> 01:04:54.240 +when you see all these different ways that + +01:04:55.860 --> 01:04:56.360 +people use in all these different stories + +01:05:00.060 --> 01:05:00.480 +that you get send off because they're using + +01:05:03.960 --> 01:05:04.460 +it to bake sourdough bread and do knitting + +01:05:06.700 --> 01:05:06.880 +and all the crazy things that people come up + +01:05:08.900 --> 01:05:09.400 +with. I've been using it as an audio editor. + +01:05:11.000 --> 01:05:11.500 +It's just weird. It's just fun. + +01:05:13.100 --> 01:05:13.600 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, that's great. + +01:05:19.640 --> 01:05:20.020 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah. Every, Sasha, like 2 things that I was + +01:05:22.900 --> 01:05:23.040 +meaning to say is every time I see the on the + +01:05:26.140 --> 01:05:26.580 +EMAX conference the time that the scratch + +01:05:29.900 --> 01:05:30.400 +buffer with the big clock that is ticking + +01:05:34.980 --> 01:05:35.480 +down as and the multi multiple sized fonts As + +01:05:37.720 --> 01:05:37.900 +I always think wow, that's really cool. + +01:05:38.980 --> 01:05:39.280 +I didn't know Emacs could do that. + +01:05:40.440 --> 01:05:40.940 +Wait, no, I saw that last year. + +01:05:43.860 --> 01:05:44.060 +How do you do, now, how do I do that? + +01:05:45.360 --> 01:05:45.480 +Cause that's not, and that's not something I + +01:05:46.920 --> 01:05:47.420 +normally even think about Emacs doing. + +01:05:48.080 --> 01:05:48.580 +[Speaker 1]: Right. + +01:05:51.220 --> 01:05:51.720 +[Speaker 2]: I'll think about putting + +01:05:55.760 --> 01:05:56.260 +[Speaker 3]: There's an EmacsConf-stream.el + +01:05:59.760 --> 01:06:00.260 +in the EmacsConf-el repository. + +01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:04.160 +Grab the link and open but you can grab the + +01:06:07.940 --> 01:06:08.260 +code from there. It's basically the text + +01:06:08.260 --> 01:06:08.760 +property. + +01:06:15.020 --> 01:06:15.480 +[Speaker 2]: But it's a thought that has repeated multiple + +01:06:17.140 --> 01:06:17.460 +years. Like, I didn't know we could do that + +01:06:18.220 --> 01:06:18.720 +way. I thought about that. + +01:06:21.260 --> 01:06:21.600 +I had this exact thought last year when I saw + +01:06:21.600 --> 01:06:22.100 +it. + +01:06:28.260 --> 01:06:28.480 +[Speaker 1]: It's, we're like, I'm at the point where it's + +01:06:31.220 --> 01:06:31.620 +like I have memories of remembering doing + +01:06:34.540 --> 01:06:35.040 +something. I don't have memories of doing it. + +01:06:36.680 --> 01:06:37.180 +Like all of the things. + +01:06:40.560 --> 01:06:41.060 +Like so it's again, we, + +01:06:45.240 --> 01:06:45.740 +Emacs helps expose like the, + +01:06:48.640 --> 01:06:49.140 +like it's, anything's possible. + +01:06:53.300 --> 01:06:53.560 +And we see how it becomes possible through + +01:06:55.640 --> 01:06:56.120 +other people. And then it gets our brains + +01:06:57.780 --> 01:06:58.140 +thinking about other ways of doing stuff. + +01:06:59.920 --> 01:07:00.420 +And I think that's the exciting part. + +01:07:02.360 --> 01:07:02.860 +Dog who wants to go play Frisbee. + +01:07:07.900 --> 01:07:08.080 +[Speaker 3]: And that's actually 1 of the reasons why I + +01:07:11.060 --> 01:07:11.320 +want to encourage people to not only talk + +01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:12.980 +about Emacs and write Emacs blog posts, + +01:07:15.380 --> 01:07:15.520 +but also actually demonstrate Emacs in the + +01:07:16.560 --> 01:07:17.060 +sense of doing something else. + +01:07:20.220 --> 01:07:20.720 +So for example, we can match people at Emacs + +01:07:23.560 --> 01:07:24.000 +if you're presenting about Ruby on Rails and + +01:07:27.040 --> 01:07:27.440 +you're doing all of your and education and + +01:07:30.240 --> 01:07:30.480 +things while you're presenting Rails, + +01:07:32.900 --> 01:07:33.400 +you reach all these people who are interested + +01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:34.780 +in Rails, developer Rails, + +01:07:36.260 --> 01:07:36.760 +but might not have even considered Emacs. + +01:07:41.920 --> 01:07:42.420 +And here, you know, you probably would. + +01:07:44.860 --> 01:07:45.060 +I would probably have a hard time writing an + +01:07:47.040 --> 01:07:47.540 +entire talk about adding text properties, + +01:07:49.540 --> 01:07:49.760 +but the fact that there's a thing here that + +01:07:50.800 --> 01:07:51.300 +shows, hey, this is possible, + +01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:53.300 +Emacs can get people to think, + +01:07:54.880 --> 01:07:55.380 +okay, so how do I get from here to there? + +01:07:57.440 --> 01:07:57.940 +Just showing the possible. + +01:08:02.120 --> 01:08:02.360 +Yeah. Which source code is in the, + +01:08:02.360 --> 01:08:02.860 +whatchamacallit. + +01:08:04.600 --> 01:08:05.100 +[Speaker 1]: Right, yeah. Yeah, I just saw that. + +01:08:08.240 --> 01:08:08.740 +[Speaker 2]: There's a weird interesting thing how Emacs + +01:08:12.540 --> 01:08:12.720 +dovetails with people who are interested in + +01:08:15.940 --> 01:08:16.439 +making their own local first Zettelkasten, + +01:08:17.720 --> 01:08:18.220 +because look at how many Zettelkasten + +01:08:21.300 --> 01:08:21.600 +packages you have. Especially with how much, + +01:08:23.800 --> 01:08:24.100 +like it feels like, it seems like Emacs has + +01:08:27.439 --> 01:08:27.939 +more than Vim, but Vim is bigger or VS, + +01:08:30.140 --> 01:08:30.420 +feels like it has more than Vim or VS Code, + +01:08:31.920 --> 01:08:32.319 +and VS Code's bigger. I'm not sure, + +01:08:36.819 --> 01:08:37.319 +but it feels like it. Same thing with that + +01:08:39.920 --> 01:08:40.420 +HyperCore. That HyperCore felt more like a + +01:08:42.540 --> 01:08:43.040 +local first peer-to-peer system. + +01:08:48.240 --> 01:08:48.640 +So there's a weird dovetail where they want + +01:08:52.279 --> 01:08:52.779 +the knowledge bases that are local first, + +01:08:58.260 --> 01:08:58.359 +comprehensive, because 1 of the properties of + +01:09:03.500 --> 01:09:03.740 +the Zettelkasten or Org Mode agendas is that + +01:09:07.359 --> 01:09:07.819 +it's all your notes in 1 place. + +01:09:14.439 --> 01:09:14.760 +It's not, you know, your notes in either pad + +01:09:19.540 --> 01:09:20.040 +and your notes in Google Calendar, + +01:09:23.180 --> 01:09:23.680 +your notes in 20 different places, + +01:09:24.520 --> 01:09:25.020 +your notes in Evernote. + +01:09:28.700 --> 01:09:29.060 +It's your notes in 1 program in 1 place + +01:09:30.840 --> 01:09:31.080 +because you have to deal with them And + +01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:32.800 +they're going to be in files on your hard + +01:09:34.279 --> 01:09:34.779 +drive, and you're going to have packages + +01:09:37.080 --> 01:09:37.359 +there. That's the other weird thing too, + +01:09:40.240 --> 01:09:40.600 +is how many, like, you install an Emacs + +01:09:41.399 --> 01:09:41.899 +package, 1 of the guarantees, + +01:09:43.439 --> 01:09:43.640 +some of the guarantees you seem to get with + +01:09:46.260 --> 01:09:46.680 +it is if it does use an external program, + +01:09:48.399 --> 01:09:48.580 +it's going to have a lot of configuration in + +01:09:51.020 --> 01:09:51.520 +Emacs. It's going to be installed. + +01:09:53.760 --> 01:09:54.260 +It's going to be local first. + +01:09:56.780 --> 01:09:57.100 +Cause like you have flow bits, + +01:09:59.340 --> 01:09:59.840 +but how many programs like are, + +01:10:05.140 --> 01:10:05.280 +are cloud first. And it feels like most of + +01:10:06.820 --> 01:10:07.320 +those are like org Trello, + +01:10:10.160 --> 01:10:10.520 +where it's like, I want to use org mode, + +01:10:12.040 --> 01:10:12.540 +but other people use Trello. + +01:10:15.460 --> 01:10:15.780 +So I'm going to be grudgingly using this org + +01:10:17.400 --> 01:10:17.660 +Trello to be a bridge between the 2, + +01:10:19.200 --> 01:10:19.640 +not because I wanted to use org, + +01:10:21.240 --> 01:10:21.360 +not because I wanted to use Trello in the + +01:10:23.200 --> 01:10:23.320 +first place or I started off with Trello and + +01:10:24.280 --> 01:10:24.780 +now I wanna use org mode. + +01:10:27.680 --> 01:10:28.180 +[Speaker 1]: Right, no, you're that local first. + +01:10:37.020 --> 01:10:37.400 +The Thought I have is with the 2022 interest + +01:10:43.080 --> 01:10:43.580 +rates going up, the era of free money, + +01:10:46.520 --> 01:10:47.020 +or even like getting money for more, + +01:10:49.960 --> 01:10:50.180 +more money than it actually costs Like it was + +01:10:55.600 --> 01:10:56.100 +minting money. We are going to be seeing how + +01:10:59.440 --> 01:10:59.940 +these organizations that had financial + +01:11:01.840 --> 01:11:02.340 +runways, all of these cloud services, + +01:11:06.760 --> 01:11:07.020 +what's not gonna last because there's no + +01:11:12.440 --> 01:11:12.880 +funding. And like the durability of our local + +01:11:16.400 --> 01:11:16.900 +first plain text, free open source stuff. + +01:11:21.320 --> 01:11:21.820 +Like I won't have to do a content migration + +01:11:24.320 --> 01:11:24.740 +unless I get a B of my bonnet and want to + +01:11:27.700 --> 01:11:27.880 +like change from org mode to markdown for + +01:11:30.660 --> 01:11:30.920 +some reason. Like I have it and Then I can + +01:11:32.980 --> 01:11:33.480 +send it out. So there's also like that posse + +01:11:36.400 --> 01:11:36.900 +principle publish on-site syndicate + +01:11:41.660 --> 01:11:41.820 +everywhere Is what emacs and vim like they + +01:11:42.780 --> 01:11:43.280 +allow for us to do? + +01:11:46.440 --> 01:11:46.620 +[Speaker 2]: Well, that's part of the individuation is you + +01:11:48.900 --> 01:11:49.080 +have multiple options of doing something so + +01:11:51.580 --> 01:11:51.820 +you can choose something so you can take + +01:11:54.360 --> 01:11:54.860 +ownership of your data in the way you want. + +01:12:00.220 --> 01:12:00.380 +It all dovetails into each other and I think + +01:12:02.840 --> 01:12:03.260 +that's something worth thinking about, + +01:12:05.540 --> 01:12:05.800 +especially in relation with who should learn + +01:12:08.040 --> 01:12:08.440 +and how should you introduce Emacs to people, + +01:12:14.180 --> 01:12:14.420 +because like, with the idea of people should + +01:12:16.560 --> 01:12:16.800 +try an Emacs distribution and then start + +01:12:17.240 --> 01:12:17.740 +their own from scratch, + +01:12:18.880 --> 01:12:19.120 +just so that they, like, + +01:12:20.280 --> 01:12:20.640 +if you use it for 10 minutes, + +01:12:24.400 --> 01:12:24.820 +you'll gain so much because you use your 3 + +01:12:25.760 --> 01:12:26.260 +and then all of a sudden you realize, + +01:12:29.180 --> 01:12:29.440 +you also know how malleable Emacs can be. + +01:12:30.520 --> 01:12:30.960 +And then you start saying, + +01:12:32.000 --> 01:12:32.160 +now, how do I do that? + +01:12:33.240 --> 01:12:33.740 +So I get to make those choices? + +01:12:34.840 --> 01:12:35.340 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. + +01:12:39.340 --> 01:12:39.520 +[Speaker 2]: Or you might say, this person did it well + +01:12:40.320 --> 01:12:40.820 +enough, I don't have to. + +01:12:43.500 --> 01:12:43.900 +[Speaker 3]: That reminded me of something that I also + +01:12:45.360 --> 01:12:45.860 +wanted to mention, shocking word, + +01:12:49.040 --> 01:12:49.280 +as in malleability. Another tip I came + +01:12:50.600 --> 01:12:50.900 +across, don't know from whom, + +01:12:51.500 --> 01:12:51.700 +might have been from you, + +01:12:53.440 --> 01:12:53.940 +I don't know, is to define aliases, + +01:12:56.320 --> 01:12:56.460 +because we use different words from what the + +01:12:58.680 --> 01:12:59.180 +functions are. It's 1 of those little meta + +01:13:00.420 --> 01:13:00.720 +things that, you know, + +01:13:02.080 --> 01:13:02.580 +If you keep calling it something else, + +01:13:05.900 --> 01:13:06.020 +just define it so that you can call it like + +01:13:06.760 --> 01:13:07.260 +commencing your words. + +01:13:12.440 --> 01:13:12.740 +[Speaker 1]: it's interesting. Anyway, + +01:13:14.020 --> 01:13:14.240 +[Speaker 3]: Yeah. Yeah, gotta go disappear and get ready + +01:13:17.220 --> 01:13:17.360 +for my dog. Okay, I'll listen to what you + +01:13:18.120 --> 01:13:18.280 +say. All right, I + +01:13:20.020 --> 01:13:20.520 +[Speaker 1]: I need to take my dogs out and play Frisbee. + +01:13:21.780 --> 01:13:22.280 +They have been so patient. + +01:13:26.040 --> 01:13:26.200 +So it was great talking with all of you and + +01:13:29.640 --> 01:13:30.040 +Sasha, thanks for the organizing energy + +01:13:31.680 --> 01:13:32.120 +you've put into this. Plasma Strike, + +01:13:32.800 --> 01:13:33.300 +thank you for your presentation. + +01:13:34.860 --> 01:13:35.360 +I love this conference. + +01:13:36.660 --> 01:13:37.160 +So thank you very much. + +01:13:41.760 --> 01:13:42.260 +And now have a good rest of your Sunday. + +01:13:43.100 --> 01:13:43.600 +Bye. diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-nabokov--why-nabokov-would-use-orgmode-if-he-were-writing-today--edmund-jorgensen--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-nabokov--why-nabokov-would-use-orgmode-if-he-were-writing-today--edmund-jorgensen--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..20053853 --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-nabokov--why-nabokov-would-use-orgmode-if-he-were-writing-today--edmund-jorgensen--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,680 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:04.059 +[Speaker 0]: About 3 + +00:00:16.020 --> 00:00:16.400 +seconds. And I believe we are live. + +00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:17.780 +Hi Edmund, how are you doing? + +00:00:19.240 --> 00:00:19.540 +[Speaker 1]: Hi, how's it going Leo? + +00:00:20.279 --> 00:00:20.560 +I'm doing well, thanks. + +00:00:20.560 --> 00:00:21.060 +Yourself? + +00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:24.640 +[Speaker 0]: I'm also doing well. So Edmund doesn't have + +00:00:26.980 --> 00:00:27.259 +his webcam on but he will be able to answer + +00:00:29.960 --> 00:00:30.360 +questions that you ask inside of the Azure + +00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:32.659 +pad that I've shared again on IRC. + +00:00:35.440 --> 00:00:35.560 +By the way, we only have 1 question and we + +00:00:37.120 --> 00:00:37.620 +have about 40 minutes of question time, + +00:00:40.380 --> 00:00:40.520 +so feel free to add as many questions as you + +00:00:41.940 --> 00:00:42.340 +want and in the meantime, + +00:00:43.380 --> 00:00:43.660 +we'll get started on the first 1. + +00:00:45.020 --> 00:00:45.060 +Unless, Edmond, do you have anything to say + +00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:46.420 +after your presentation? + +00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:48.780 +[Speaker 1]: No, we can jump in. + +00:00:51.560 --> 00:00:52.060 +[Speaker 0]: Okay, lovely. So first question, + +00:00:54.940 --> 00:00:55.200 +is the index, sorry, does the index really + +00:00:57.840 --> 00:00:58.100 +matter here? I mean his colleague is also + +00:01:00.380 --> 00:01:00.560 +using some A4 paper and you think that the + +00:01:02.400 --> 00:01:02.900 +index card is the most important thing here? + +00:01:04.540 --> 00:01:04.920 +[Speaker 1]: That's a great question. + +00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:08.200 +I mean, I think you can do anything with a + +00:01:09.520 --> 00:01:09.720 +larger piece of paper that you can do with a + +00:01:10.240 --> 00:01:10.460 +smaller piece of paper. + +00:01:12.280 --> 00:01:12.479 +But I actually encourage you to try this out. + +00:01:14.820 --> 00:01:15.020 +I did, not for research for this talk, + +00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:17.160 +but just when I read about Nabokov and his + +00:01:18.160 --> 00:01:18.400 +index cards to begin with, + +00:01:20.380 --> 00:01:20.660 +I kind of tried it out a little bit and wrote + +00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:22.720 +some shorter things on index cards and so on + +00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:25.120 +and there really is something about the size + +00:01:27.940 --> 00:01:28.440 +and the kind of ability to manipulate them. + +00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:30.360 +You really can bundle them and move them + +00:01:33.420 --> 00:01:33.720 +around easier and I think that that I think + +00:01:35.800 --> 00:01:35.920 +he enjoyed that. So sure I mean I think you + +00:01:37.540 --> 00:01:37.660 +can do anything with a4 paper that you could + +00:01:38.860 --> 00:01:39.140 +do with index cards but I think there's + +00:01:40.760 --> 00:01:41.200 +something about that form that lends itself + +00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:44.160 +to the especially to the reorganization maybe + +00:01:45.540 --> 00:01:45.820 +to the focus as well just because it's + +00:01:47.060 --> 00:01:47.220 +smaller but but definitely to the + +00:01:47.220 --> 00:01:47.720 +reorganization. + +00:01:53.600 --> 00:01:53.940 +[Speaker 0]: Definitely So we have a lot more questions + +00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:54.960 +now. So thank you, everyone, + +00:01:56.479 --> 00:01:56.979 +for answering my plea for more questions. + +00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:00.060 +Next question. How do you explore the second + +00:02:01.880 --> 00:02:02.080 +level headings, i.e. The scenes in this + +00:02:03.600 --> 00:02:04.100 +example, without the heading itself, + +00:02:05.740 --> 00:02:06.240 +just the content? Is that clear enough? + +00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:09.740 +[Speaker 1]: Great question. Yeah, so I've tried 2 ways, + +00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:13.440 +sorry, 3 ways with this and landed on 1 that + +00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:16.480 +I like. Originally I used the OX package. + +00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:20.220 +There's an OX ignore thing in there where you + +00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:23.420 +can add an ignore tag to where you don't want + +00:02:24.720 --> 00:02:25.140 +the headings, but you do want the content + +00:02:26.920 --> 00:02:27.240 +exported. I found that a little bit annoying, + +00:02:27.940 --> 00:02:28.280 +just visually annoying, + +00:02:31.320 --> 00:02:31.820 +when I'm, again, My theme here is navigating + +00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:35.160 +100,000 word documents effectively and having + +00:02:36.900 --> 00:02:37.400 +that extra visual noise was kind of a pain. + +00:02:40.520 --> 00:02:40.760 +So I ended up, first I just did like a dumb + +00:02:43.040 --> 00:02:43.180 +ox script as part of my publication kind of + +00:02:47.720 --> 00:02:47.980 +pipeline that removed headlines at the scene + +00:02:48.940 --> 00:02:49.240 +level. And then actually, + +00:02:50.980 --> 00:02:51.220 +because I ended up leaning so heavily on + +00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:53.880 +Pandoc, and Pandoc, for those of you who have + +00:02:56.200 --> 00:02:56.700 +not looked at recent versions of Pandoc, + +00:03:00.920 --> 00:03:01.300 +they've got a really fantastic way to use Lua + +00:03:02.420 --> 00:03:02.920 +at this point to write filters. + +00:03:04.940 --> 00:03:05.140 +So you can kind of take the AST of your + +00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:07.400 +document and run these very simple Lua + +00:03:09.140 --> 00:03:09.620 +filters over it. They used to be in Haskell, + +00:03:11.780 --> 00:03:12.120 +which I'm not smart enough to write Haskell + +00:03:13.140 --> 00:03:13.500 +is 1 of the things that I've discovered. + +00:03:14.440 --> 00:03:14.760 +I keep bouncing off of it, + +00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:16.720 +but I'm just smart enough to write Lua. + +00:03:19.480 --> 00:03:19.840 +And so I use a Lua filter now, + +00:03:21.180 --> 00:03:21.380 +which I'm happy to publish to anyone who's + +00:03:22.880 --> 00:03:23.380 +interested. That basically lets me say, + +00:03:27.440 --> 00:03:27.560 +you know, what level headings to get rid of + +00:03:28.740 --> 00:03:29.120 +the heading, but publish the content. + +00:03:30.320 --> 00:03:30.480 +And part of the reason that's been useful is + +00:03:31.920 --> 00:03:32.040 +that some of the other novels I'm working on + +00:03:33.540 --> 00:03:33.680 +for example have different levels of + +00:03:35.640 --> 00:03:35.740 +hierarchy where maybe there's a part and then + +00:03:37.260 --> 00:03:37.640 +you know at the top level and then chapter + +00:03:39.160 --> 00:03:39.520 +and then scene and it's now the third level + +00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:41.580 +instead of the second and it's much easier in + +00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:44.060 +the Lua to just be like remove the third + +00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:45.700 +level headings or the second level headings + +00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:47.860 +or whatever it is so that's been that's been + +00:03:47.860 --> 00:03:48.360 +helpful. + +00:03:53.040 --> 00:03:53.540 +[Speaker 0]: Great, Moving on to the next question, + +00:03:58.120 --> 00:03:58.260 +slightly off topic, where can we see your + +00:03:58.260 --> 00:03:58.760 +novels? + +00:04:01.060 --> 00:04:01.560 +[Speaker 1]: Oh well yeah, you can, + +00:04:05.500 --> 00:04:05.560 +they're on Amazon, there's 2 of them and a + +00:04:06.160 --> 00:04:06.660 +book of short stories. + +00:04:10.120 --> 00:04:10.440 +I think the short stories and the second + +00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:12.280 +novel, which is called World Enough in Time, + +00:04:13.940 --> 00:04:14.160 +which is the 1 that kind of prompted this + +00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:16.660 +talk, are probably of more interest to this, + +00:04:18.320 --> 00:04:18.820 +to the Emacs focused group. + +00:04:20.380 --> 00:04:20.740 +The first one's like a philosophical murder + +00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:25.440 +mystery, but the World Enough in Time is a + +00:04:29.820 --> 00:04:30.320 +kind of Douglas Adams inspired sci-fi comedy + +00:04:34.440 --> 00:04:34.940 +about kind of hijinks on a relativistic speed + +00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:37.480 +space cruiser, which was a lot of fun to + +00:04:38.980 --> 00:04:39.480 +write. It has a lot of twisty subplots, + +00:04:42.500 --> 00:04:42.720 +which is where I developed that technique of + +00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:46.780 +being able to filter down to tags and see a + +00:04:47.840 --> 00:04:48.340 +reduced version of the novel, + +00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:51.960 +which was very handy when trying to juggle 13 + +00:04:53.520 --> 00:04:54.020 +subplots. So yeah, check it out. + +00:04:57.240 --> 00:04:57.340 +[Speaker 0]: Great, we'll make sure that you have the + +00:04:59.860 --> 00:05:00.360 +links available on the talk page afterwards. + +00:05:03.420 --> 00:05:03.740 +Right now I sadly have to host so I cannot + +00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:05.820 +look up the links but we'll make sure or if + +00:05:08.100 --> 00:05:08.600 +[Speaker 1]: I put it in there for you. + +00:05:09.020 --> 00:05:09.520 +[Speaker 0]: anyone in the chat... Oh you did? + +00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:13.940 +Yeah. In the meantime we'll move on to the + +00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:17.060 +next question. Have you looked at the Denote + +00:05:19.700 --> 00:05:20.080 +signature features? The hierarchical nature + +00:05:23.180 --> 00:05:23.520 +of Lumen's ideas and index cards works well + +00:05:24.100 --> 00:05:24.600 +with Denote signatures. + +00:05:26.120 --> 00:05:26.620 +So are you familiar with Denote first? + +00:05:28.740 --> 00:05:28.840 +[Speaker 1]: I am not. No, it sounds like something that I + +00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:29.740 +should check out. + +00:05:33.080 --> 00:05:33.420 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, Denote is a way to work with slip + +00:05:35.460 --> 00:05:35.640 +boxes. We talked a little bit about it + +00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:37.740 +earlier today. We talked about Orgroam, + +00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:40.900 +we talked about Denote as well as a lighter + +00:05:41.580 --> 00:05:42.080 +alternative to Orgroam. + +00:05:45.520 --> 00:05:45.920 +And yeah, the organization with index cards + +00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:47.720 +feels like it's something that would highly + +00:05:50.740 --> 00:05:50.900 +benefit from linking and back links and any + +00:05:53.880 --> 00:05:54.380 +kind of UX functionality for relating pieces + +00:05:56.680 --> 00:05:56.980 +of information. So yeah, + +00:05:57.620 --> 00:05:58.120 +definitely look it up. + +00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:00.460 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I'm a heavy org-roam user. + +00:06:03.280 --> 00:06:03.680 +I use org-roam for a lot of different stuff + +00:06:05.740 --> 00:06:05.860 +and I would love, I will definitely check out + +00:06:06.740 --> 00:06:07.240 +Denote as an alternative. + +00:06:09.520 --> 00:06:09.960 +[Speaker 0]: Sure, I'm not particularly personally + +00:06:11.720 --> 00:06:12.180 +familiar with what Signature is within Denote + +00:06:13.940 --> 00:06:14.060 +and it'd be great if the person who asked the + +00:06:15.580 --> 00:06:15.980 +question could perhaps provide more details + +00:06:17.980 --> 00:06:18.180 +so that Edmund could get a little more + +00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:20.500 +information when he returns to the document. + +00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:21.980 +But yeah, if you're using Org-ROM, + +00:06:25.140 --> 00:06:25.280 +you're already within the mindset that you + +00:06:27.180 --> 00:06:27.500 +need, and perhaps you'd gain a little bit + +00:06:29.260 --> 00:06:29.760 +extra stuff from using Dino's signature, + +00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:33.240 +I assume. We have 8 minutes. + +00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:34.540 +We're still good on time. + +00:06:36.500 --> 00:06:36.980 +Next question, do you have a workflow + +00:06:39.020 --> 00:06:39.360 +combining handwritten index cards and org + +00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:39.860 +mode? + +00:06:42.400 --> 00:06:42.900 +[Speaker 1]: Great question. I do not. + +00:06:46.620 --> 00:06:47.120 +I do write by hand when I get, + +00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:49.280 +I don't know what a good term for it is, + +00:06:51.420 --> 00:06:51.580 +I'll call it like editorial paralysis or + +00:06:53.100 --> 00:06:53.320 +something when I find it very hard to move + +00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:54.880 +forward in something because I keep going + +00:06:56.940 --> 00:06:57.240 +back and tweaking. And I will handwrite stuff + +00:06:58.520 --> 00:06:58.660 +at that point and then type it in because + +00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:02.540 +it's so much harder to get stuck in editing + +00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:04.600 +mode when you have to move forward on the + +00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:07.860 +page. I don't use index cards. + +00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:12.080 +In the blog article that I link in my talk, + +00:07:14.400 --> 00:07:14.900 +the ewj.io slash emacs 1, + +00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:18.740 +I did try using handwritten or spreadsheet + +00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:22.720 +outlines at 1 point and found them very, + +00:07:27.640 --> 00:07:27.840 +very clumsy for novel writing just because I + +00:07:29.820 --> 00:07:30.320 +do so much, I mean, I do so much revision + +00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:32.720 +that moving things around meant that I had to + +00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:34.760 +keep 2 things in sync with each other, + +00:07:35.440 --> 00:07:35.660 +the pros and the outline. + +00:07:37.540 --> 00:07:38.040 +And that was what really led me to Org Mode + +00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:40.080 +as a way to keep the, again, + +00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:42.180 +I think part of the key for me is keeping the + +00:07:44.580 --> 00:07:45.060 +outline and the pros right next to each other + +00:07:46.440 --> 00:07:46.940 +in a way that they move around which is just + +00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:49.000 +really, I don't know, for me really really + +00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:49.500 +powerful. + +00:07:54.280 --> 00:07:54.480 +[Speaker 0]: Okay great, so we finished the list of + +00:07:55.840 --> 00:07:56.340 +questions available on the pad, + +00:07:58.260 --> 00:07:58.440 +but I see that some people have joined us on + +00:08:01.100 --> 00:08:01.300 +BBB, so hi everyone. If you have any + +00:08:03.340 --> 00:08:03.600 +questions feel free to unmute yourself and + +00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:06.820 +ask them. Otherwise, we might go on a break. + +00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:08.520 +So I'm going to give you about 10 seconds to + +00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:14.760 +unmute yourself. Or if you just want to add + +00:08:15.660 --> 00:08:15.860 +more questions on the pad, + +00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:17.920 +that's also fine. And that'll give you about + +00:08:19.540 --> 00:08:19.860 +30 seconds. Otherwise, + +00:08:20.660 --> 00:08:21.160 +we'll need to go on a break. + +00:08:24.020 --> 00:08:24.520 +And in the meantime, I'll thank you, + +00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:26.100 +Edmund, for your presentation, + +00:08:27.880 --> 00:08:28.100 +because it's always nice, + +00:08:31.400 --> 00:08:31.900 +you know, we The reason why we have 2 tracks, + +00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:34.280 +and we've been having 2 tracks for the last 2 + +00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:36.260 +or 3 editions of EmacsConf is because it's + +00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:39.299 +really nice to have those talks which are + +00:08:43.500 --> 00:08:43.840 +still related to Emacs and to far distance + +00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:45.700 +developments because we are obviously using + +00:08:48.160 --> 00:08:48.400 +packages. But it's really nice to see when we + +00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:52.200 +foray into other areas like writing or any + +00:08:53.400 --> 00:08:53.900 +kind of academia-based topics. + +00:08:55.440 --> 00:08:55.840 +So thank you, it's really nice. + +00:09:01.500 --> 00:09:01.720 +It brings different colors to the spectrum of + +00:09:03.580 --> 00:09:03.900 +what EmacsConf is and what ultimately Emacs + +00:09:04.680 --> 00:09:05.180 +is as well. Thank you. + +00:09:06.960 --> 00:09:07.200 +[Speaker 1]: Well thanks to everyone who tuned in and Leo + +00:09:08.160 --> 00:09:08.560 +thanks to you and all the other organizers + +00:09:09.060 --> 00:09:09.340 +for putting this together. + +00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:10.220 +Appreciate it. + +00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:12.840 +[Speaker 0]: Thank you. All right I think we're going to + +00:09:14.380 --> 00:09:14.540 +go on a little break for 5 minutes because I + +00:09:16.060 --> 00:09:16.560 +don't see other questions being asked. + +00:09:18.900 --> 00:09:19.160 +So everyone we'll see you again in 5 minutes + +00:09:19.900 --> 00:09:20.400 +and thank you again, Edmund. + +00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:21.220 +[Speaker 1]: Cheers. diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-one--oneel-the-static-site-generator-for-emacs-lisp-programmers--tony-aldon--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-one--oneel-the-static-site-generator-for-emacs-lisp-programmers--tony-aldon--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..71483a10 --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-one--oneel-the-static-site-generator-for-emacs-lisp-programmers--tony-aldon--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,1472 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:05.460 +[Speaker 0]: So, will you, when I'm looking at my, + +00:00:08.200 --> 00:00:08.480 +the other screen, I don't see the chat, + +00:00:09.880 --> 00:00:10.380 +so maybe someone can tell me. + +00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:12.360 +[Speaker 1]: It's fine, don't worry about it, + +00:00:13.820 --> 00:00:14.320 +and we are live. So hi again everyone. + +00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:16.140 +Hi Tony, how are you doing? + +00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:18.420 +[Speaker 0]: Really well, and you? + +00:00:20.540 --> 00:00:21.040 +[Speaker 1]: I am doing fantastically, + +00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:23.460 +as fantastically as I can be doing, + +00:00:25.320 --> 00:00:25.820 +having to put out fire in the background + +00:00:30.140 --> 00:00:30.640 +[Speaker 0]: Cool! + +00:00:31.020 --> 00:00:31.520 +[Speaker 1]: during MaxConf. But I'm doing great! Alright, + +00:00:34.400 --> 00:00:34.900 +Let me just try to set up everything so that + +00:00:36.980 --> 00:00:37.260 +I can show the questions and all this. + +00:00:38.420 --> 00:00:38.600 +Do you mind if I read you the question? + +00:00:39.820 --> 00:00:39.960 +It might be a little more interactive and + +00:00:42.260 --> 00:00:42.760 +this way you can focus on either presenting + +00:00:43.260 --> 00:00:43.760 +stuff on your end. + +00:00:48.500 --> 00:00:48.680 +[Speaker 0]: Yes, tell me what are the questions and what + +00:00:50.440 --> 00:00:50.940 +to do and I will do that. + +00:00:55.900 --> 00:00:56.400 +[Speaker 1]: Okay great so what I'll do, + +00:00:58.340 --> 00:00:58.580 +I'll invite people to go to the pad and ask + +00:00:59.820 --> 00:01:00.060 +questions because it was a very interesting + +00:01:01.360 --> 00:01:01.480 +talk and I'm sure you have plenty of + +00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:03.460 +questions but I only see 1 right now. + +00:01:04.860 --> 00:01:05.360 +Do we have people on BigBlueButton? + +00:01:08.080 --> 00:01:08.580 +Yes we do have people joining right now. + +00:01:12.360 --> 00:01:12.620 +So reading the first question then. + +00:01:14.140 --> 00:01:14.380 +So what's the main motivation for this new + +00:01:15.600 --> 00:01:16.100 +package? I used to use org.yugo + +00:01:17.880 --> 00:01:18.340 +and use GitHub Actions to build a blog. + +00:01:20.440 --> 00:01:20.600 +So can you go in a little bit of details on + +00:01:20.600 --> 00:01:21.100 +this? + +00:01:25.280 --> 00:01:25.780 +[Speaker 0]: Yes, OK. So the main goal, + +00:01:33.070 --> 00:01:33.570 +I didn't want to have, + +00:01:36.940 --> 00:01:37.440 +to, I will push that here. + +00:01:44.440 --> 00:01:44.940 +So my goal was to not have to rely on another + +00:01:49.440 --> 00:01:49.920 +static site generator to produce my website. + +00:01:54.440 --> 00:01:54.780 +So if you use a Yugo, that means that you + +00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:01.060 +take, so this is the website that we've seen + +00:02:07.580 --> 00:02:07.880 +in the talk, this 1. And I didn't want to + +00:02:13.100 --> 00:02:13.320 +have to use a piece of software in Emacs that + +00:02:16.640 --> 00:02:16.960 +translate to some other files to be feed to + +00:02:20.320 --> 00:02:20.680 +another statistic generator because this way + +00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:23.680 +I have 2 things to understand. + +00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:26.620 +I have to understand how that software + +00:02:32.260 --> 00:02:32.440 +translates my files into the other files and + +00:02:36.460 --> 00:02:36.960 +then I have to understand how Hugo works. + +00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:39.480 +So if I want to change something I need to + +00:02:43.260 --> 00:02:43.660 +understand Hugo. So at some point I need to + +00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:46.200 +work with Hugo. So if I need to work with + +00:02:49.200 --> 00:02:49.700 +Hugo, maybe I can work with it directly. + +00:02:56.100 --> 00:02:56.600 +And I wanted also something that was purely + +00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:03.080 +Emacs-centric and working on it, + +00:03:05.060 --> 00:03:05.560 +I found out about that solution. + +00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:10.740 +And I wanted also something that we have only + +00:03:14.640 --> 00:03:15.140 +1 file that have all the entries. + +00:03:18.120 --> 00:03:18.620 +And when I thought about that, + +00:03:22.420 --> 00:03:22.720 +finally I found a way that maybe we can just + +00:03:30.160 --> 00:03:30.360 +use 1 or 3 to pass it the information of the + +00:03:33.329 --> 00:03:33.405 +website. And if you look, + +00:03:37.160 --> 00:03:37.660 +If you just try to work with Gatsby, + +00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:40.020 +Ugo or all those websites, + +00:03:45.180 --> 00:03:45.680 +when you start, you download 10, + +00:03:51.780 --> 00:03:52.280 +20, 30, thousand for hundreds of dependencies + +00:03:59.320 --> 00:03:59.620 +to do. Just to me, I'm a small guy and I just + +00:04:02.560 --> 00:04:02.720 +want to have some documentation on the + +00:04:04.700 --> 00:04:05.200 +website like this 1. It just, + +00:04:08.480 --> 00:04:08.980 +it shouldn't need that much of a dependency. + +00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:11.460 +And if you look at the website, + +00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:13.180 +if you want to hack on something, + +00:04:17.220 --> 00:04:17.320 +you need a lot of to understand how the + +00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:19.459 +config files work. So you need to, + +00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:21.060 +how does it work this config file? + +00:04:23.100 --> 00:04:23.320 +But I want, it's always happened that you + +00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:26.420 +want to add 1 thing or to add that things. + +00:04:27.260 --> 00:04:27.760 +What do you have to do? + +00:04:30.080 --> 00:04:30.340 +You have to, you can't because it's not + +00:04:33.540 --> 00:04:34.040 +offered by the configuration file. + +00:04:37.480 --> 00:04:37.980 +With that solution that I built for me first, + +00:04:41.080 --> 00:04:41.580 +I don't care if I need something else. + +00:04:47.100 --> 00:04:47.600 +I just have to go in that file. + +00:04:52.260 --> 00:04:52.440 +It doesn't need to be that file because as I + +00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:55.980 +am in Emacs if the render functions are + +00:04:58.820 --> 00:04:58.940 +already evaluated they exist and I can use it + +00:05:02.380 --> 00:05:02.520 +but I just have to change that file so if I + +00:05:07.520 --> 00:05:07.860 +want something more I just I go there let's + +00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:10.920 +say so does it answer the question or I + +00:05:12.280 --> 00:05:12.780 +continue to show something? + +00:05:15.880 --> 00:05:16.060 +[Speaker 1]: It's up to you, I think you are answering the + +00:05:17.440 --> 00:05:17.600 +question. I think you veered off a little bit + +00:05:19.640 --> 00:05:19.940 +from just why not you go but then you kind of + +00:05:21.340 --> 00:05:21.840 +redid part of your presentation to justify + +00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:26.360 +[Speaker 0]: own system. But stop me if I go because I + +00:05:29.700 --> 00:05:29.920 +used to want to show more things than what + +00:05:30.520 --> 00:05:30.900 +there is in the question. + +00:05:31.760 --> 00:05:32.080 +[Speaker 1]: why you had to roll your Yeah that's fine. + +00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:33.340 +Just for people who do not know, + +00:05:35.280 --> 00:05:35.500 +we tend to restrict speakers when they submit + +00:05:36.460 --> 00:05:36.620 +a presentation. We tell them, + +00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:39.000 +oh, you can do a flash talk in 10 minutes or + +00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:41.100 +a bit of a longer talk in 20 minutes or 40 + +00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:43.180 +minutes. And usually, because we have a lot + +00:05:45.860 --> 00:05:46.260 +of speakers, we have to kind of coerce people + +00:05:47.860 --> 00:05:48.340 +into going to shorter formats and sometimes + +00:05:49.760 --> 00:05:50.260 +it's a lot about killing your darlings. + +00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:52.360 +But just to reassure you, + +00:05:54.380 --> 00:05:54.560 +we're just about to go on a launch break in + +00:05:56.680 --> 00:05:56.840 +about 10 minutes, so you've got the full 10 + +00:05:57.940 --> 00:05:58.320 +minutes to use however you want, + +00:05:59.220 --> 00:05:59.340 +but I'll just tell you, + +00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:01.080 +you have a lot of questions so you might want + +00:06:03.280 --> 00:06:03.400 +to perhaps move on to the next 1 as soon as + +00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:04.060 +you can. + +00:06:07.740 --> 00:06:08.240 +[Speaker 0]: Yes okay so tell me the next 1 and if people + +00:06:12.660 --> 00:06:13.160 +want to stay more I can also stay more. + +00:06:16.980 --> 00:06:17.220 +Right. I understand if people need to go to + +00:06:18.900 --> 00:06:19.020 +lunch, they can, but people that want to + +00:06:19.740 --> 00:06:20.240 +stay, if it's possible, + +00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:22.860 +I'm here to answer any question. + +00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:26.240 +[Speaker 1]: Splendid. All right, so moving on to the next + +00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:29.180 +question. Is it possible to include the + +00:06:31.320 --> 00:06:31.560 +include org tag to add content from other + +00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:33.620 +files. Do you see what I'm talking about? + +00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:39.060 +[Speaker 0]: Yes, so it's not included. + +00:06:44.740 --> 00:06:45.240 +So the idea was really to have only 1 file + +00:06:49.400 --> 00:06:49.760 +and have no options. So if you look at the, + +00:06:51.940 --> 00:06:52.240 +let's go into, so the answer is no, + +00:06:55.840 --> 00:06:56.320 +but if you want, you can write the code that + +00:07:00.020 --> 00:07:00.520 +do it. But let's just go into one.n, + +00:07:07.660 --> 00:07:07.900 +so that files. So this is the files where you + +00:07:11.060 --> 00:07:11.440 +have everything, and there is only 2 + +00:07:13.820 --> 00:07:13.980 +dependencies. Maybe we can see that at the + +00:07:17.900 --> 00:07:18.080 +top so which are htmlis on the Jack and the + +00:07:19.540 --> 00:07:19.840 +other are Augment. So for me, + +00:07:21.260 --> 00:07:21.760 +they're not dependencies because they come + +00:07:25.080 --> 00:07:25.440 +with Emacs. But the question is, + +00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:27.440 +can I add other things? + +00:07:31.200 --> 00:07:31.640 +If you look at that, you don't see the orange + +00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:33.220 +color which are viable, + +00:07:37.580 --> 00:07:38.080 +it's because I didn't want any configuration + +00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:41.060 +nor option. So there is no, + +00:07:45.340 --> 00:07:45.660 +if you think about, you are used to use org + +00:07:49.080 --> 00:07:49.540 +export normally and to use all the options + +00:07:51.760 --> 00:07:52.000 +that are possible on all the things they are + +00:08:00.100 --> 00:08:00.600 +not included. You can add them because when + +00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:06.500 +you are in a render function. + +00:08:08.620 --> 00:08:08.940 +So this is the render function that I showed + +00:08:11.820 --> 00:08:11.980 +in the theme. You have a page tree so you + +00:08:18.132 --> 00:08:18.358 +have the information but in the global I + +00:08:19.940 --> 00:08:20.440 +think, yes in global, you can pass anything + +00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:24.720 +you want and if you want you can pass the + +00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:27.540 +parse tree of the whole file. + +00:08:30.540 --> 00:08:30.840 +So if you pass the parse tree of the whole + +00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:34.580 +file, what you can do is that you can get it + +00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:38.659 +there. So I don't have it right now, + +00:08:43.820 --> 00:08:43.980 +but you might have your include stuff and you + +00:08:47.540 --> 00:08:48.040 +get it with a node property that target + +00:08:50.460 --> 00:08:50.940 +something in the global variable. + +00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:54.740 +So if we look just to be short but those 3 + +00:08:56.980 --> 00:08:57.180 +parts, the first 1 is page tree. + +00:08:58.860 --> 00:08:59.160 +So it's this page that you are on the right, + +00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:02.220 +pages are a list of all the pages and global + +00:09:05.740 --> 00:09:06.240 +is something that you can set and reset once + +00:09:10.520 --> 00:09:10.840 +and you have the whole part street. + +00:09:12.900 --> 00:09:13.400 +So anything that you add in your op-files + +00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:16.840 +could go in global if you want, + +00:09:17.560 --> 00:09:18.060 +but it's not included. + +00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:23.140 +[Speaker 1]: All right. I think that's also answering the + +00:09:24.620 --> 00:09:24.840 +question. Can this generate a single file + +00:09:25.920 --> 00:09:26.420 +from different sources like blog.org, + +00:09:28.500 --> 00:09:28.820 +videos.org? I think you've just answered + +00:09:30.780 --> 00:09:31.280 +[Speaker 0]: Yes, I think yes. + +00:09:32.460 --> 00:09:32.660 +[Speaker 1]: this, right? Right. Okay. + +00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:34.340 +So moving on to the other question. + +00:09:36.860 --> 00:09:37.200 +Do you have pre-made templates already along + +00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:38.820 +with the 1.el package? + +00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:47.940 +[Speaker 0]: So, yes and no. So, The answer is if we go to + +00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:55.520 +1.n, so this file, so the first are blah, + +00:10:01.460 --> 00:10:01.780 +blah, blah. How it works, + +00:10:05.980 --> 00:10:06.480 +so, okay, so you have the 1-hocs, + +00:10:11.660 --> 00:10:11.980 +which is what can translate the org parse + +00:10:15.680 --> 00:10:16.180 +tree into HTML. So this is for the content of + +00:10:17.640 --> 00:10:18.140 +each page. So this is very useful. + +00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:22.660 +Then we have a bunch of functions that help + +00:10:23.860 --> 00:10:24.360 +to render the function, + +00:10:29.760 --> 00:10:30.260 +each page. And you have a bunch of... + +00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:33.920 +Everything that starts with dash default is a + +00:10:35.640 --> 00:10:36.140 +render function. So there's no template, + +00:10:40.020 --> 00:10:40.520 +but each page that if you want, + +00:10:45.920 --> 00:10:46.400 +so that 1, the home, you can use 1 default + +00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:48.620 +home. So, if you want to list the page, + +00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:53.220 +you have that 1. For a page with no table of + +00:10:55.460 --> 00:10:55.840 +content, you use that thing. + +00:10:57.860 --> 00:10:58.260 +And if you go back to be short, + +00:11:02.160 --> 00:11:02.660 +if we go there, I put this like that. + +00:11:09.380 --> 00:11:09.880 +So this that we see here is the first inline + +00:11:14.220 --> 00:11:14.440 +of 1.org. By the way, it doesn't have to be + +00:11:16.620 --> 00:11:17.120 +called 1.org. It's just as you want, + +00:11:18.880 --> 00:11:19.380 +but maybe we can call it. + +00:11:22.500 --> 00:11:23.000 +So default, what was the other 1? + +00:11:28.100 --> 00:11:28.280 +Default with sidebar. Or is it default with + +00:11:29.640 --> 00:11:30.080 +sidebar or default? Yes, + +00:11:34.880 --> 00:11:35.380 +with sidebar. Sidebar, + +00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:37.740 +if it's worked correctly. + +00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:46.620 +Okay, so, okay, so I don't know why the CSS + +00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:49.700 +is not working correctly. + +00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:53.860 +[Speaker 1]: It's okay. It wouldn't be a live demo without + +00:11:55.020 --> 00:11:55.440 +problems occurring at some point. + +00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:55.940 +Okay. + +00:12:00.740 --> 00:12:01.240 +[Speaker 0]: But so maybe we can use this 1. + +00:12:06.660 --> 00:12:06.980 +Or we stuck. So we are going to use this 1, + +00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:16.020 +we've talked this 1, but maybe better in this + +00:12:19.740 --> 00:12:20.240 +1 that add something. So we build it again + +00:12:32.020 --> 00:12:32.180 +and now, oh, come on. We have it and we have + +00:12:35.640 --> 00:12:36.140 +the, sorry, if we have just default, + +00:12:40.680 --> 00:12:41.120 +we rebuild and now this is the default layer + +00:12:43.860 --> 00:12:44.360 +that if we do with table of content, + +00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:48.580 +you have it, you have the default content. + +00:12:53.140 --> 00:12:53.640 +So how to change, and they are not template. + +00:12:57.260 --> 00:12:57.760 +They are render functions that takes your + +00:13:05.220 --> 00:13:05.720 +page as a tree and render HTML string. + +00:13:08.700 --> 00:13:09.200 +So you can build any function that you want. + +00:13:11.980 --> 00:13:12.280 +So yes, I think that answers the question. + +00:13:15.900 --> 00:13:16.400 +There is no template like in other systems. + +00:13:18.420 --> 00:13:18.920 +[Speaker 1]: Cool, that makes sense. + +00:13:20.800 --> 00:13:21.000 +We have 2 more questions and then we'll need + +00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:22.200 +to go on a lunch break. + +00:13:23.420 --> 00:13:23.740 +I don't see anyone join the room. + +00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:25.640 +Remember, Tony has said that he would be + +00:13:27.340 --> 00:13:27.500 +willing to answer more questions during the + +00:13:28.860 --> 00:13:29.120 +lunch break, perhaps because it's not lunch + +00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:30.980 +break for you. Are you in Europe right now? + +00:13:34.280 --> 00:13:34.600 +So that's why for us, also for me it's very + +00:13:37.540 --> 00:13:37.660 +dark, but it's not lunch break for us, + +00:13:38.940 --> 00:13:39.440 +it's going to be dinner break soon actually. + +00:13:42.340 --> 00:13:42.840 +[Speaker 0]: Yes. Yes, exactly, so I'm just, + +00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:44.700 +I'm okay. + +00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:49.200 +[Speaker 1]: Right, Okay, so moving on to 1 of the last 2 + +00:13:51.400 --> 00:13:51.680 +questions. What additional features are there + +00:13:53.160 --> 00:13:53.660 +that you would like to add to 1.EL + +00:13:54.280 --> 00:13:54.780 +in the future? + +00:13:59.940 --> 00:14:00.440 +[Speaker 0]: Yes, there's only 1, which is a full text + +00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:05.500 +search done in a simple way. + +00:14:09.520 --> 00:14:10.020 +So I don't meet what simple way means, + +00:14:11.880 --> 00:14:12.380 +but when I see something complicated, + +00:14:14.640 --> 00:14:15.140 +it doesn't enter in 1 to me. + +00:14:18.340 --> 00:14:18.840 +So, but really, if you see that, + +00:14:21.760 --> 00:14:22.260 +I would like to have some way. + +00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:25.080 +So, this is the documentation and I would + +00:14:26.980 --> 00:14:27.480 +like to have some way to just have another + +00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:30.740 +function because we are not talking about + +00:14:33.300 --> 00:14:33.800 +those websites on the 1.L. + +00:14:39.280 --> 00:14:39.520 +It's not made for a big company or of your + +00:14:42.100 --> 00:14:42.440 +things, it's just for a random guy that have + +00:14:45.880 --> 00:14:46.200 +a blog or a few blogs and If you are a great + +00:14:51.780 --> 00:14:52.280 +blogger, maybe you are going to write 100 or + +00:14:56.940 --> 00:14:57.240 +200 or 300 pages in many years. + +00:14:59.640 --> 00:15:00.060 +So this enter in that category. + +00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:03.580 +So it's small. So I think it can, + +00:15:07.280 --> 00:15:07.580 +we could find a way to make a full text + +00:15:09.660 --> 00:15:10.160 +search. And that is simple. + +00:15:12.280 --> 00:15:12.780 +I don't need to, to go with, + +00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:16.620 +with solution like Algolia that is, + +00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:17.900 +that works super fine. + +00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:21.100 +But this is something that I don't control + +00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:26.200 +and I have to give them the data and I'm not + +00:15:29.060 --> 00:15:29.320 +against that but it's just that I think with + +00:15:32.540 --> 00:15:32.800 +a bit of work something can be done with full + +00:15:35.460 --> 00:15:35.600 +textile. But this is the only thing that I + +00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:36.980 +would like to add. + +00:15:40.800 --> 00:15:41.300 +[Speaker 1]: Very clear answer. Next question. + +00:15:43.980 --> 00:15:44.380 +Can you create navbars on a website and fancy + +00:15:45.880 --> 00:15:46.380 +things like carousels using 1.EL? + +00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:48.220 +Now carousels is just, + +00:15:51.560 --> 00:15:51.820 +I think, a fancy way to display pictures and + +00:15:53.560 --> 00:15:53.800 +please correct me whoever asked this + +00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:55.440 +question. Otherwise I see you taking notes + +00:15:56.540 --> 00:15:56.820 +for the answers, thank you very much. + +00:15:58.580 --> 00:15:58.740 +But if you could specify maybe carousels so + +00:16:01.400 --> 00:16:01.900 +that Tony and I may get a better idea. + +00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:03.340 +But still, first part of the question, + +00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:04.940 +can you create navbars on a website? + +00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:10.860 +[Speaker 0]: Yes. So if, for instance, + +00:16:14.140 --> 00:16:14.600 +you see there, to me, it's not a, + +00:16:18.540 --> 00:16:19.040 +it's a navbar. So you already have it. + +00:16:22.660 --> 00:16:23.080 +I didn't show that in the talk, + +00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:27.440 +but the CSS for the default function that + +00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:31.100 +works is responsive. So, + +00:16:33.900 --> 00:16:34.400 +out of the box, if you are using something, + +00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:37.540 +you will have an app bar done for you with + +00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:38.680 +all the pages that you have. + +00:16:39.740 --> 00:16:40.240 +So, if we go to install, + +00:16:44.620 --> 00:16:44.900 +we have that. And if we no longer have that, + +00:16:49.460 --> 00:16:49.960 +we have that sidebar there. + +00:16:51.340 --> 00:16:51.840 +And how it's done. So, + +00:16:56.140 --> 00:16:56.380 +the same way. I like simple fields that are + +00:16:58.080 --> 00:16:58.580 +flexible and I didn't want configuration + +00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:01.280 +because if you want to write the code to + +00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:03.480 +change something you just have to write code. + +00:17:05.220 --> 00:17:05.720 +So any function, render function, + +00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:08.760 +is yours. So you can do whatever you want and + +00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:11.520 +you enter the html that you want to render. + +00:17:17.300 --> 00:17:17.800 +So let's see how do we get that navigation + +00:17:20.740 --> 00:17:20.920 +bar that we have when we do that this is a + +00:17:22.579 --> 00:17:23.079 +CSS stuff. But when we click, + +00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:25.819 +this is a JS stuff that, + +00:17:32.120 --> 00:17:32.320 +so let's go to one.l And maybe this is a + +00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:35.660 +sidebar. Why that function because, + +00:17:39.860 --> 00:17:40.360 +okay. So when that function, + +00:17:45.020 --> 00:17:45.340 +so 1 default sidebar is 1 that is used to do + +00:17:46.800 --> 00:17:47.120 +some of the things at some point, + +00:17:51.820 --> 00:17:52.120 +what we return is a JackHTML that take a data + +00:17:54.020 --> 00:17:54.340 +structure and return a string. + +00:17:57.160 --> 00:17:57.280 +So this is your HTML. So you can see at the + +00:18:00.280 --> 00:18:00.780 +top you have the end, then you have the body, + +00:18:05.740 --> 00:18:06.080 +and if we go at the end we can add a script + +00:18:08.140 --> 00:18:08.640 +thing. So what we've seen with the sidebar + +00:18:11.320 --> 00:18:11.820 +it's just that much line of JavaScript. + +00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:17.440 +So this is the only JavaScript that there is + +00:18:23.140 --> 00:18:23.640 +to get what we have here when we do that. + +00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:29.500 +So you can add whatever you want. + +00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:33.420 +It's code and you're the master of that code. + +00:18:38.100 --> 00:18:38.600 +[Speaker 1]: Splendid, great. So to specify the carousel + +00:18:39.520 --> 00:18:39.860 +stuff that we mentioned before, + +00:18:42.280 --> 00:18:42.520 +it's pictures rolling or sliding from 1 to + +00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:44.620 +the other. It's kind of like having a + +00:18:47.180 --> 00:18:47.540 +gallery, imagine a fancy dynamic gallery + +00:18:48.340 --> 00:18:48.740 +where you can scroll pictures. + +00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:50.220 +Do you see what I'm talking about? + +00:18:53.100 --> 00:18:53.600 +[Speaker 0]: Yes, so that things would just be I think + +00:18:57.380 --> 00:18:57.620 +some javascript added somewhere and I can + +00:18:58.780 --> 00:18:59.280 +show you another website. + +00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:04.200 +So for instance if we go because there are + +00:19:07.900 --> 00:19:08.160 +not all the data of the website are not all + +00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:10.140 +public, but the website they are. + +00:19:11.520 --> 00:19:12.020 +So for instance, a mini-buffer, + +00:19:18.380 --> 00:19:18.880 +it's not a carousel, but at the home page, + +00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:20.900 +we can do whatever we want. + +00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:24.560 +Still those pages, still, + +00:19:28.620 --> 00:19:28.980 +this is only 1 file for each page. + +00:19:31.080 --> 00:19:31.580 +So if we click, we can get those things. + +00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:33.140 +It's just that when we, + +00:19:34.540 --> 00:19:35.040 +for the home page for instance, + +00:19:37.540 --> 00:19:38.040 +when we go back on that home page, + +00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:40.580 +we have the list at that point. + +00:19:44.860 --> 00:19:45.360 +So let's go back to that function that we're, + +00:19:47.320 --> 00:19:47.740 +so not that 1, maybe the 1, + +00:19:50.540 --> 00:19:50.760 +1 different, it's better because that 1 is + +00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:52.980 +simpler. So almost nothing happened. + +00:19:55.020 --> 00:19:55.520 +We have the list of the pages. + +00:19:59.180 --> 00:19:59.680 +So I can do whatever I want with that list. + +00:20:04.900 --> 00:20:05.400 +I can loop over and we can see that 1, + +00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:08.600 +that default home list of pages, + +00:20:09.560 --> 00:20:10.060 +so that list of the pages, + +00:20:11.660 --> 00:20:12.160 +and we see where is the list. + +00:20:15.660 --> 00:20:16.160 +Okay, so this is a, here we have a function + +00:20:20.600 --> 00:20:21.100 +that just, we want the pages, + +00:20:23.600 --> 00:20:24.100 +but I think we, but the home page, + +00:20:27.620 --> 00:20:28.120 +and we have that list, + +00:20:32.520 --> 00:20:33.020 +and then here we do that. + +00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:40.460 +And we get something listed, + +00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:44.060 +But then as you control everything that you + +00:20:51.600 --> 00:20:51.820 +do, you can pass any CSS class that you want + +00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:53.620 +to do those things. So, + +00:20:54.520 --> 00:20:55.020 +for instance, that div, + +00:21:00.340 --> 00:21:00.660 +add the class either. Yes, + +00:21:02.560 --> 00:21:02.840 +you can do. I don't remember the question, + +00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:05.660 +but I think I was answering the right 1. + +00:21:07.120 --> 00:21:07.260 +[Speaker 1]: No, no, you were answering it. + +00:21:09.280 --> 00:21:09.720 +It was about carousels and about having fancy + +00:21:11.280 --> 00:21:11.720 +display for image galleries. + +00:21:12.340 --> 00:21:12.660 +And I think you've answered. + +00:21:13.620 --> 00:21:14.120 +Basically, you just put your JavaScript, + +00:21:15.600 --> 00:21:16.100 +you embed it inside the code. + +00:21:16.620 --> 00:21:17.120 +[Speaker 0]: Exactly. + +00:21:20.080 --> 00:21:20.220 +[Speaker 1]: So, other question. Would there be an + +00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:22.860 +automated way to convert an existing HTML + +00:21:24.380 --> 00:21:24.880 +document into a JackHTML form? + +00:21:31.560 --> 00:21:32.060 +[Speaker 0]: Okay, so that 1, I don't have 1. + +00:21:35.080 --> 00:21:35.580 +It's another topic, but maybe there are some + +00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:37.940 +kind of session because some people that + +00:21:41.120 --> 00:21:41.620 +know, that are used to Lisp, + +00:21:45.080 --> 00:21:45.580 +common Lisp or Clojure or other, + +00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:49.460 +Jack-html, that function, + +00:21:53.260 --> 00:21:53.680 +is something classic, but I didn't find, + +00:22:00.340 --> 00:22:00.840 +So I wrote it because I didn't find it + +00:22:04.020 --> 00:22:04.520 +already done the way I want for Emacs. + +00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:08.980 +And this is something for E-cup closure. + +00:22:13.040 --> 00:22:13.260 +So really I take, it's not that I take my + +00:22:14.660 --> 00:22:15.060 +impression, just that when you have something + +00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:20.140 +that exists and you look at how it's done. + +00:22:22.220 --> 00:22:22.720 +So you have a eCup for Crusher, + +00:22:26.140 --> 00:22:26.640 +does the same thing that HTML. + +00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:32.140 +It's more that I do a Jack HTML do what eCup + +00:22:36.660 --> 00:22:37.160 +does, but maybe they do it a better way. + +00:22:41.100 --> 00:22:41.600 +So I think maybe in that community, + +00:22:45.940 --> 00:22:46.320 +it might already exist something that go from + +00:22:51.940 --> 00:22:52.440 +HTML to Jack. So you can see, + +00:22:56.120 --> 00:22:56.620 +is it big enough? I will make it big enough. + +00:22:58.773 --> 00:22:59.060 +[Speaker 1]: It's good enough, don't worry. + +00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:01.420 +[Speaker 0]: So if you see- So you have the hash HTML and + +00:23:04.020 --> 00:23:04.200 +you see those things. There are things that I + +00:23:05.220 --> 00:23:05.460 +couldn't do, for instance, + +00:23:09.140 --> 00:23:09.280 +for the ID, I couldn't use the hash in the + +00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:14.760 +name of, of how do we name that, + +00:23:18.260 --> 00:23:18.480 +of the keywords, because it's used for + +00:23:20.800 --> 00:23:21.180 +something else in a Emacs Lisp. + +00:23:24.520 --> 00:23:25.020 +So, I use... Anyway, so you see that you have + +00:23:30.060 --> 00:23:30.260 +that things but in Emacs we don't have the + +00:23:34.700 --> 00:23:34.960 +map with that syntax. We have a hash map but + +00:23:36.760 --> 00:23:37.120 +they are not with that syntax and I wanted + +00:23:45.860 --> 00:23:46.080 +that syntax so we use only list and Here we + +00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:48.660 +have an array with a hash map. + +00:23:51.620 --> 00:23:52.120 +So let me just say, so the question was, + +00:23:53.600 --> 00:23:54.100 +does it exist something? + +00:23:58.320 --> 00:23:58.680 +I think not, but it could be built or maybe + +00:24:01.100 --> 00:24:01.600 +exist for E-Cups, you are interested. + +00:24:04.700 --> 00:24:04.860 +[Speaker 1]: Okay, great. I think that answers the + +00:24:07.340 --> 00:24:07.840 +question perfectly. And our final question, + +00:24:11.660 --> 00:24:12.160 +does this or you use any other Emacs packages + +00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:14.180 +for your packages slash website, + +00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:16.740 +example, or publish? Like, + +00:24:17.700 --> 00:24:17.960 +rephrasing the question, + +00:24:20.380 --> 00:24:20.820 +do you use it for your own personal usage or + +00:24:21.820 --> 00:24:22.320 +do you interact with other packages? + +00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:26.180 +[Speaker 0]: I'm not sure I understand the question. + +00:24:28.460 --> 00:24:28.960 +Can you please repeat the question? + +00:24:32.300 --> 00:24:32.460 +[Speaker 1]: Yes, I will reread it as it is written and I + +00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:34.760 +will leave you interpret it however you want. + +00:24:38.860 --> 00:24:39.220 +Thank you. Does this or you use any other + +00:24:42.560 --> 00:24:43.060 +Emacs packages for your package slash website + +00:24:44.600 --> 00:24:45.100 +like org-publish? + +00:24:48.840 --> 00:24:49.340 +[Speaker 0]: No, no, no. I don't use nothing. + +00:24:54.140 --> 00:24:54.640 +I just accept dependency of 1.n. + +00:25:00.760 --> 00:25:01.000 +So, we are in 1.n and we go at the top and we + +00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:03.980 +see that those are the dependencies. + +00:25:09.280 --> 00:25:09.520 +I use nothing. So what I do is that I + +00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:12.420 +publish, I just generate the public + +00:25:14.540 --> 00:25:15.040 +directory. So if we go to public, + +00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:18.240 +this 1, no, I don't want this 1. + +00:25:22.740 --> 00:25:23.240 +I want to go to the website of the video. + +00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:27.400 +If we see here, everything is rendered in the + +00:25:35.860 --> 00:25:36.360 +public. Any services, if you use your own + +00:25:38.940 --> 00:25:39.280 +server and you save those files, + +00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:40.460 +you have your website. + +00:25:42.280 --> 00:25:42.580 +So I don't use anything else. + +00:25:49.540 --> 00:25:49.700 +I just git push and I'm using Netlify as a + +00:25:51.820 --> 00:25:52.320 +service to run to save my files, + +00:25:54.360 --> 00:25:54.860 +but you can use anything you want. + +00:25:58.480 --> 00:25:58.620 +Because your website is really what is into a + +00:25:59.960 --> 00:26:00.460 +public. So, this is another, + +00:26:02.840 --> 00:26:03.340 +It's not the concern of 1.L + +00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:07.180 +to answer. I'm not using org.publish. + +00:26:10.520 --> 00:26:10.900 +[Speaker 1]: Cool, great. Well, thank you. + +00:26:12.740 --> 00:26:13.000 +I think the question was also about other + +00:26:16.280 --> 00:26:16.500 +things, but I think If the person wants a + +00:26:17.840 --> 00:26:18.340 +more clear answer to their question, + +00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:21.260 +feel free to clarify the question and Tony + +00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:22.960 +might be able to answer it later on. + +00:26:24.100 --> 00:26:24.220 +Alright Tony, I think that's all the + +00:26:25.520 --> 00:26:25.760 +questions we had. Thank you so much for + +00:26:27.260 --> 00:26:27.680 +taking the time not only to present Adimax + +00:26:29.140 --> 00:26:29.240 +Kant, but also for answering all the + +00:26:29.960 --> 00:26:30.460 +questions people had. + +00:26:33.580 --> 00:26:34.080 +[Speaker 0]: Thank you to everybody participating, + +00:26:37.580 --> 00:26:38.000 +organizing and thank you for all those + +00:26:42.020 --> 00:26:42.180 +questions and you can send me any emails if + +00:26:44.620 --> 00:26:45.120 +you have a question and open the issues if + +00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:47.720 +it's not working the way it should work for + +00:26:49.540 --> 00:26:49.840 +you. Please send me those things. + +00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:50.900 +Thank you, everybody. + +00:26:53.760 --> 00:26:54.260 +[Speaker 1]: Splendid, thank you. And before, + +00:26:55.840 --> 00:26:56.140 +so right now we're gonna go on a lunch break. + +00:26:58.480 --> 00:26:58.660 +We'll be back in about 40 minutes for the + +00:27:00.740 --> 00:27:01.240 +talk called Emacs Turbocharges My Writing. + +00:27:02.300 --> 00:27:02.540 +And I will not tell you more. + +00:27:04.120 --> 00:27:04.280 +You can look at the talk page to see a little + +00:27:06.140 --> 00:27:06.340 +bit of a synopsis but otherwise keep the + +00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:08.900 +surprise. So have a good lunch or have a good + +00:27:11.260 --> 00:27:11.760 +dinner if you are in dinner-friendly times + +00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:13.180 +and I will see you afterwards. + +00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:14.180 +Thank you again, Tony. + +00:27:15.100 --> 00:27:15.600 +[Speaker 0]: See you. + +00:27:19.820 --> 00:27:20.320 +[Speaker 1]: All right. Let me just close everything. + +00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:30.480 +All right, got it. OK, + +00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:31.400 +so thank you so much, Tony. + +00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:33.520 +I just had to clear everything up on the + +00:27:34.740 --> 00:27:35.240 +stream. I'm going to need to... + +00:27:38.500 --> 00:27:39.000 +Sorry. I'm going to stop. diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-overlay--improving-compiler-diagnostics-with-overlays--jeff-trull--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-overlay--improving-compiler-diagnostics-with-overlays--jeff-trull--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..2f2e9a1a --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-overlay--improving-compiler-diagnostics-with-overlays--jeff-trull--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,638 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:02.899 --> 00:00:03.399 +[Speaker 0]: Out here or also you can continue discussing + +00:00:06.200 --> 00:00:06.700 +on IRC. + +00:00:23.200 --> 00:00:23.320 +So I see 2 questions coming in already on the + +00:00:24.400 --> 00:00:24.619 +pad. So the first question is, + +00:00:26.759 --> 00:00:27.040 +how did you draw the under braces and over + +00:00:38.360 --> 00:00:38.559 +braces? Sorry, Jeff, you're muted on the blue + +00:00:38.559 --> 00:00:39.059 +button. + +00:00:43.340 --> 00:00:43.680 +[Speaker 1]: I'm sorry for some reason I'm seeing + +00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:46.420 +everything twice. I'm hearing everything + +00:00:48.420 --> 00:00:48.600 +twice. So it's, it's about with about a 5 + +00:00:53.400 --> 00:00:53.900 +[Speaker 0]: Probably my stream turned on + +00:00:57.340 --> 00:00:57.620 +[Speaker 1]: second delay. It's straight Oh, + +00:01:03.820 --> 00:01:04.000 +you're right Thank you so much I MPB is + +00:01:07.340 --> 00:01:07.840 +showing the the big blue button Okay, + +00:01:09.060 --> 00:01:09.380 +sorry everyone. Okay now. + +00:01:12.180 --> 00:01:12.260 +I'm together now Let's see How did I draw the + +00:01:13.140 --> 00:01:13.640 +over braces and under braces? + +00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:17.620 +LaTeX. That is a, that's a, + +00:01:25.020 --> 00:01:25.380 +yeah, and a SVG, I think, + +00:01:29.160 --> 00:01:29.460 +produced by LaTeX through a separate file. + +00:01:31.960 --> 00:01:32.460 +I tried to do like a LaTeX code block and + +00:01:33.940 --> 00:01:34.160 +didn't get around to it. + +00:01:36.900 --> 00:01:37.260 +Also, the code to produce it in TickSet was + +00:01:39.800 --> 00:01:39.940 +really, really long. So I didn't put it in + +00:01:47.300 --> 00:01:47.540 +[Speaker 0]: The next question is, you've got a nice + +00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:49.340 +sounding keyboard. What kind is it? + +00:01:50.380 --> 00:01:50.600 +[Speaker 1]: the notes. GARY ILLYES-CHAKRABARTYTT I'm so + +00:01:55.960 --> 00:01:56.180 +sorry. It is an Ergodox split keyboard for my + +00:01:59.700 --> 00:02:00.180 +wrists. Sorry about the noise. + +00:02:01.020 --> 00:02:01.280 +[Speaker 0]: Awesome. Yeah, no worries. + +00:02:02.220 --> 00:02:02.440 +I mean, I like to hear it. + +00:02:03.900 --> 00:02:04.400 +We like to hear it. I think a lot of us do. + +00:02:07.080 --> 00:02:07.580 +[Speaker 1]: Do we have anything on IRC? + +00:02:15.880 --> 00:02:16.380 +Let's see. Someone's asking for ligatures. + +00:02:23.420 --> 00:02:23.860 +Do you have any questions, + +00:02:26.100 --> 00:02:26.600 +Ben? Charles? + +00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:35.440 +[Speaker 0]: I see a bunch on the path that I can read for + +00:02:36.980 --> 00:02:37.480 +[Speaker 1]: Oh, yeah, please do. + +00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:40.140 +[Speaker 0]: now. Sure. So next question is, + +00:02:41.580 --> 00:02:42.080 +do you find that the invasive, + +00:02:44.540 --> 00:02:44.680 +quote unquote, 3-formatting interferes with + +00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:45.180 +navigation? + +00:02:48.700 --> 00:02:49.200 +[Speaker 1]: Yes, it does. That is true. + +00:03:01.300 --> 00:03:01.800 +Let me see. Yeah, it's weird. + +00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:04.340 +The good news is that, + +00:03:06.260 --> 00:03:06.500 +oh, you know what? The first thing I did, + +00:03:07.600 --> 00:03:08.100 +my first attempt at this, + +00:03:11.140 --> 00:03:11.480 +I actually made all of the incoming text + +00:03:13.440 --> 00:03:13.660 +invisible and just replaced it with my own + +00:03:15.440 --> 00:03:15.940 +text. And that was actually a lot worse. + +00:03:21.420 --> 00:03:21.680 +The more of the input that is removed or made + +00:03:23.600 --> 00:03:23.960 +invisible, the harder the navigation becomes. + +00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:26.880 +So the fact that now I'm just inserting line + +00:03:29.440 --> 00:03:29.640 +breaks and spaces makes it a lot easier. + +00:03:30.540 --> 00:03:30.920 +And I can still search. + +00:03:34.600 --> 00:03:34.760 +And when I get to the destination of the + +00:03:38.300 --> 00:03:38.800 +search, I'm still in proper normal text. + +00:03:41.980 --> 00:03:42.160 +So it got a little better by changing my + +00:03:43.740 --> 00:03:43.940 +strategy a bit, but it's still a little bit + +00:03:50.180 --> 00:03:50.680 +of a problem. Let's see. + +00:03:51.720 --> 00:03:52.220 +I'll go look at the etherpad. + +00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:55.520 +Where is it? + +00:03:57.260 --> 00:03:57.440 +[Speaker 0]: I can read the questions from etherpad if + +00:04:00.660 --> 00:04:00.860 +you'd like me to. And then If at any point + +00:04:02.720 --> 00:04:03.180 +you want to take the questions from IRC, + +00:04:04.320 --> 00:04:04.820 +then feel free to do that as well. + +00:04:07.240 --> 00:04:07.600 +[Speaker 1]: I found it. Can you show us the key bindings + +00:04:08.940 --> 00:04:09.440 +of your minor map for editing overlays? + +00:04:15.860 --> 00:04:16.360 +Well, I have a minor mode key map for + +00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:22.220 +increasing or decreasing the level of detail. + +00:04:24.640 --> 00:04:25.140 +And the key bindings are like, + +00:04:31.840 --> 00:04:32.340 +I can't remember what it is. + +00:04:34.080 --> 00:04:34.200 +If you go and you look at the source on + +00:04:35.640 --> 00:04:36.140 +GitHub, you can see it there. + +00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:38.100 +I forgot what I bound them to. + +00:04:40.320 --> 00:04:40.820 +Something that I'm allowed to do. + +00:04:45.860 --> 00:04:46.220 +They have restrictions on what key bindings + +00:04:47.200 --> 00:04:47.700 +you can make in minor modes. + +00:04:49.300 --> 00:04:49.640 +And I carefully followed the directions. + +00:04:50.580 --> 00:04:50.820 +I don't remember what it was. + +00:04:54.220 --> 00:04:54.720 +It's like Control-C-P or something like that. + +00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:01.100 +Or yeah. Sorry. Your examples were with C++ + +00:05:02.640 --> 00:05:03.140 +if you experiment with any other languages. + +00:05:07.460 --> 00:05:07.960 +I haven't. I guess this is just a perennial + +00:05:10.440 --> 00:05:10.940 +pain point for C++ programmers. + +00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:13.860 +So that's kind of why my, + +00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:16.000 +and I am 1, and I guess that's why my focus + +00:05:17.880 --> 00:05:18.080 +was there. You probably have to rewrite some + +00:05:20.520 --> 00:05:21.020 +of the parsers to use something else. + +00:05:24.060 --> 00:05:24.160 +Would it be possible to include overlays in + +00:05:25.080 --> 00:05:25.580 +the source file itself? + +00:05:30.860 --> 00:05:31.360 +I actually don't understand this question. + +00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:33.440 +In the source file itself, + +00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:35.660 +there are language modes that do this. + +00:05:41.580 --> 00:05:41.740 +No, I'm not certain I understand that + +00:05:43.520 --> 00:05:43.700 +question. Maybe you could edit it a little + +00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:45.860 +bit more, overlays in the source file. + +00:05:48.840 --> 00:05:49.340 +What are your plans for TSP in the future? + +00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:55.060 +It's a little fragile. + +00:06:00.020 --> 00:06:00.520 +So it might be nice to investigate. + +00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:02.920 +I think you can get the compiler to output + +00:06:04.120 --> 00:06:04.620 +error messages in different formats, + +00:06:07.320 --> 00:06:07.800 +which might be more parsable or the parsing + +00:06:08.360 --> 00:06:08.860 +might be more maintainable. + +00:06:10.280 --> 00:06:10.520 +That might be an interesting thing to + +00:06:15.460 --> 00:06:15.960 +investigate. And the other thing is I have + +00:06:19.200 --> 00:06:19.700 +just 1 way of reformatting the output where + +00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:21.820 +everything on the same level is vertically + +00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:24.160 +aligned. But I think some people might want + +00:06:26.920 --> 00:06:27.040 +to make more use of the horizontal space on + +00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:31.260 +the screen and take the sort of sibling parts + +00:06:34.860 --> 00:06:35.360 +of the type and line them up straight across + +00:06:39.140 --> 00:06:39.640 +and take up a little bit less vertical space. + +00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:48.040 +Enriched mode. I don't know what enriched + +00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:51.500 +mode is. Interesting. Oh, + +00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:53.220 +what's my repository link? + +00:06:56.400 --> 00:06:56.900 +Let me get that then. I don't know how to + +00:07:00.620 --> 00:07:01.120 +format this properly, but it's just troll + +00:07:03.820 --> 00:07:04.320 +slash tspute. Yeah, it's on GitHub. + +00:07:14.820 --> 00:07:15.160 +Something like that. Let's see. + +00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:16.620 +This looks like the Etherpad. + +00:07:19.640 --> 00:07:20.140 +It looks like all the Etherpad questions. + +00:07:22.120 --> 00:07:22.620 +We have 1 here from Charles. + +00:07:24.960 --> 00:07:25.120 +Can overlays work as hypertext so you can + +00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:27.180 +link an error message back to the source? + +00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:30.920 +Yeah, actually, that's done by default in + +00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:33.120 +compilation mode. That's 1 of the features + +00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:36.660 +you get, which has been around for literally + +00:07:41.280 --> 00:07:41.520 +decades. Oh, yeah. Is it already there? + +00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:42.740 +Yes, it's already there. + +00:07:45.960 --> 00:07:46.460 +Let's see. Do we have anything on IRC? + +00:07:56.680 --> 00:07:56.880 +Let me see. OK, looks like it seems like + +00:07:58.000 --> 00:07:58.480 +we've run out of questions. + +00:07:58.860 --> 00:07:59.360 +Is that true? + +00:08:04.440 --> 00:08:04.640 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, it seems so. It seems so, + +00:08:06.820 --> 00:08:07.200 +although we still have a couple more minutes, + +00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:09.480 +like maybe 3, 4 minutes on the stream. + +00:08:13.780 --> 00:08:14.240 +So yeah. And then, of course, + +00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:16.020 +once the stream does move on to the next + +00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:19.440 +talk. Folks are welcome to join Jeff here on + +00:08:22.340 --> 00:08:22.500 +BigBlueButton. If Jeff still has a few more + +00:08:24.640 --> 00:08:24.960 +minutes to just chat here or ask questions + +00:08:25.800 --> 00:08:26.300 +here, that works as well. + +00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:27.240 +[Speaker 1]: JEFF CROSSMAN-WILSONEY-PORTMAN Yeah, + +00:08:29.640 --> 00:08:30.140 +if anyone's excited about the tool. + +00:08:38.460 --> 00:08:38.880 +Are the notes are available online, + +00:08:42.100 --> 00:08:42.360 +right? I uploaded an org file that was my + +00:08:43.700 --> 00:08:43.940 +talk, and I actually included some + +00:08:48.900 --> 00:08:49.300 +references. Like at the end, + +00:08:50.860 --> 00:08:51.360 +there's some links and stuff like that. + +00:08:54.620 --> 00:08:54.820 +Whenever you see like a underlined thing in + +00:08:56.840 --> 00:08:56.980 +my presentation, it's like I was kind of + +00:08:58.520 --> 00:08:59.020 +thinking people would have access to the + +00:09:00.920 --> 00:09:01.160 +actual presentation itself so they could go + +00:09:04.640 --> 00:09:05.140 +and see what it was I was linking to some PDF + +00:09:07.540 --> 00:09:08.000 +somewhere. How annoying is this for multiple + +00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:09.960 +compilers? It's annoying, + +00:09:15.620 --> 00:09:15.860 +Ben. I basically have separate parsers for + +00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:18.760 +Clang and GCC, and I'm not supporting MSVC at + +00:09:23.540 --> 00:09:23.940 +the moment. So yeah, that's where I do worry + +00:09:26.520 --> 00:09:26.680 +about its fragility, about the way I'm kind + +00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:28.220 +of parsing these error messages, + +00:09:29.340 --> 00:09:29.840 +which are idiosyncratic. + +00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:38.680 +Oh, yeah, great. Thank you, + +00:09:49.060 --> 00:09:49.220 +Amin. That's good. Should just follow that + +00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:50.100 +link, I guess. + +00:09:56.420 --> 00:09:56.720 +[Speaker 0]: Well, yeah, it's so that you have to scroll + +00:09:59.020 --> 00:09:59.380 +down a little bit underneath the video + +00:10:00.460 --> 00:10:00.960 +embedding itself. There's timestamps. + +00:10:01.880 --> 00:10:02.380 +And then below the timestamps, + +00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:03.740 +I see a bunch of links, + +00:10:06.140 --> 00:10:06.640 +including 1 that says download.org. + +00:10:09.800 --> 00:10:10.020 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, let's see what that is. + +00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:13.320 +Is that the right 1? Yeah, + +00:10:14.780 --> 00:10:15.280 +that's it. That's the 1. + +00:10:19.280 --> 00:10:19.540 +Yeah, you can also see all of my hacks to Org + +00:10:20.740 --> 00:10:21.240 +Present are in there as well. + +00:10:25.760 --> 00:10:25.920 +I followed the System Crafters thing and made + +00:10:27.160 --> 00:10:27.660 +a bunch of my own modifications. + +00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:33.420 +Org Present has this problem where every + +00:10:35.760 --> 00:10:36.060 +heading is a slide, which I don't like. + +00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:37.580 +I kind of want hierarchy. + +00:10:41.040 --> 00:10:41.540 +You know? Oh, no. Sorry. + +00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:43.940 +Every level 1 heading is a slide. + +00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:46.720 +And I kind of want hierarchy among the + +00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:51.640 +slides. And I had to sort of invent it in + +00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:54.820 +that system myself through navigation. + +00:11:03.800 --> 00:11:04.300 +It looks like things have quieted down. + +00:11:09.520 --> 00:11:10.020 +Shall we call it? + +00:11:14.020 --> 00:11:14.120 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, sure. So yeah, thanks again for the + +00:11:17.780 --> 00:11:18.120 +great talk, Jeff. And also to the audience + +00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:19.460 +for questions and discussions. + +00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:21.900 +People are welcome to stay here on BBB if + +00:11:24.060 --> 00:11:24.160 +Jeff has time to continue the discussions and + +00:11:25.320 --> 00:11:25.520 +ask any questions they might have. + +00:11:26.820 --> 00:11:27.320 +Otherwise, yeah, we can wrap it. + +00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:29.380 +[Speaker 1]: Sure. Thank you so much. + +00:11:30.400 --> 00:11:30.880 +And I love this conference. + +00:11:33.900 --> 00:11:34.120 +I've been a happy attendee since like 2015 or + +00:11:36.760 --> 00:11:37.120 +something. So yeah, it's great. + +00:11:37.760 --> 00:11:38.260 +Thank you for your work. + +00:11:41.040 --> 00:11:41.260 +[Speaker 0]: Thank you. Cheers. I mean, + +00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:43.260 +in large part, thanks to awesome people like + +00:11:44.280 --> 00:11:44.540 +you who give these amazing talks. + +00:11:45.420 --> 00:11:45.920 +So Thank you as well. + +00:14:30.260 --> 00:14:30.460 +[Speaker 1]: You are currently the only person in this + +00:14:30.460 --> 00:14:30.960 +conference. + +00:21:15.260 --> 00:21:15.760 +You + +00:21:37.760 --> 00:21:38.260 +1 + +00:22:23.260 --> 00:22:23.760 +1 1 1 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 1 3 4 1 2 4 1 1 3 4 1 1 2 + +00:22:28.100 --> 00:22:28.600 +3 3 4 1 2 1 + +00:24:41.445 --> 00:24:41.945 +You diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-parallel--parallel-text-replacement--lovro-valentino-picotti--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-parallel--parallel-text-replacement--lovro-valentino-picotti--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..0fc2d8ef --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-parallel--parallel-text-replacement--lovro-valentino-picotti--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,767 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:08.620 --> 00:00:09.120 +[Speaker 0]: And I think we are live. + +00:00:09.620 --> 00:00:09.960 +Hello again, everyone. + +00:00:10.940 --> 00:00:11.440 +And hi, Lovro. How are you doing? + +00:00:15.339 --> 00:00:15.839 +[Speaker 1]: Just a second. Should I join the other room? + +00:00:18.460 --> 00:00:18.740 +[Speaker 0]: Oh, no, no, you can stay here. + +00:00:20.860 --> 00:00:21.360 +[Speaker 1]: I can stay in the backstage. + +00:00:24.140 --> 00:00:24.320 +[Speaker 0]: Everything is fine. I don't think you are + +00:00:25.520 --> 00:00:25.760 +technically in the backstage right now you're + +00:00:26.750 --> 00:00:26.820 +just in Big Blue Button with us. + +00:00:30.040 --> 00:00:30.160 +[Speaker 1]: Oh thanks. Oh because I have 2 of them open I + +00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:31.280 +thought there were 2 different rooms. + +00:00:32.720 --> 00:00:33.220 +1 is the backstage and the other, + +00:00:38.239 --> 00:00:38.360 +[Speaker 0]: whichever, I can hear you and so can the + +00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:40.080 +stream, so don't worry too much about which + +00:00:41.140 --> 00:00:41.220 +is the backstage and which is the front page. + +00:00:41.540 --> 00:00:41.760 +[Speaker 1]: I have no idea. Well, great, + +00:00:43.660 --> 00:00:43.940 +great. Okay, yeah. Yeah, + +00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:45.480 +I'm doing great, just to answer your + +00:00:45.480 --> 00:00:45.980 +question. + +00:00:47.379 --> 00:00:47.640 +[Speaker 0]: Okay, great, great, Okay, + +00:00:49.900 --> 00:00:50.280 +well splendid. So, I've pasted a link again + +00:00:51.520 --> 00:00:51.760 +on IRC if you want to ask your questions, + +00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:53.200 +and I'd invite you to do so, + +00:00:54.620 --> 00:00:55.040 +because we have about 9 minutes of laborious + +00:00:56.580 --> 00:00:57.080 +time to answer as many of them as possible. + +00:00:58.360 --> 00:00:58.860 +And I'm going to start with the first 1. + +00:01:01.100 --> 00:01:01.600 +This looks great and was very well-presented. + +00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:03.420 +Do you have plans to upstream this + +00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:04.739 +functionality into Emacs? + +00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:08.200 +[Speaker 1]: That's a good idea. That's something we + +00:01:08.860 --> 00:01:09.360 +thought about as well. + +00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:12.140 +Currently, we haven't really contacted anyone + +00:01:16.160 --> 00:01:16.660 +to do this. Also, the current implementation, + +00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:20.080 +so as I mentioned in the presentation towards + +00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:22.300 +the end, so we use a little bit of advice to + +00:01:24.240 --> 00:01:24.520 +sort of patch some functionality of query + +00:01:26.479 --> 00:01:26.600 +replace because not everything was easy to + +00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:29.180 +implement. The core functionality luckily + +00:01:32.220 --> 00:01:32.340 +was, But there's a couple of fixes we need to + +00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:34.340 +apply to the message function in order to + +00:01:36.380 --> 00:01:36.820 +display a nice message in the echo buffer + +00:01:39.140 --> 00:01:39.320 +because this doesn't happen on its own when + +00:01:41.100 --> 00:01:41.580 +we're using this trick with this big regex + +00:01:45.360 --> 00:01:45.720 +and whatnot. So I don't think that the code + +00:01:47.080 --> 00:01:47.580 +as it is would be upstreamable. + +00:01:50.600 --> 00:01:51.100 +I think probably if we wanted to upstream it, + +00:01:54.140 --> 00:01:54.280 +we would have to do some proper work on + +00:01:57.180 --> 00:01:57.340 +refactoring query place itself in order to + +00:01:58.780 --> 00:01:58.979 +integrate all of this functionality just + +00:02:01.880 --> 00:02:02.380 +directly without any patching left and right. + +00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:06.120 +But yeah, definitely something I've given + +00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:10.259 +some thought, but so far no progress on it. + +00:02:11.640 --> 00:02:11.980 +I haven't actually started doing anything + +00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:12.740 +about it. + +00:02:17.440 --> 00:02:17.780 +[Speaker 0]: Right, So I'm curious now, + +00:02:19.640 --> 00:02:19.900 +you developed the feature and then you moved + +00:02:21.600 --> 00:02:21.740 +on to the presentation or did you want to do + +00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:23.200 +a presentation for EmacsConf and then you + +00:02:24.140 --> 00:02:24.640 +worked on something like this? + +00:02:26.360 --> 00:02:26.860 +Which was it first, the chicken or the egg? + +00:02:28.220 --> 00:02:28.720 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, it was the former. + +00:02:31.320 --> 00:02:31.820 +So this is a problem I've been aware of for, + +00:02:33.340 --> 00:02:33.840 +I mean, probably a couple of years. + +00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:35.640 +And, you know, I talked to my friend + +00:02:37.600 --> 00:02:37.840 +Valentino about it and we had like a little + +00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:39.740 +discussion, you know, how would we do this? + +00:02:41.880 --> 00:02:42.380 +And then I remember back when I was + +00:02:44.140 --> 00:02:44.260 +researching about this problem and the + +00:02:45.100 --> 00:02:45.600 +various Emacs Lisp solutions, + +00:02:47.780 --> 00:02:47.960 +all I could find were these solutions that + +00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:49.600 +would, you know, just shy away from + +00:02:50.640 --> 00:02:50.920 +implementing the RegEx case, + +00:02:52.340 --> 00:02:52.840 +which is a really complicated 1. + +00:02:54.720 --> 00:02:55.220 +And, after some discussion, + +00:02:56.140 --> 00:02:56.580 +my friend and I decided, + +00:02:58.080 --> 00:02:58.320 +okay, what the hell? Let's, + +00:02:59.280 --> 00:02:59.480 +let's try and implement this. + +00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:02.300 +How hard can it be? And yeah, + +00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:03.780 +basically in 1 afternoon, + +00:03:06.300 --> 00:03:06.500 +the idea, our little trick and the whole + +00:03:07.440 --> 00:03:07.940 +implementation was born. + +00:03:11.480 --> 00:03:11.680 +And then I think that was maybe around a year + +00:03:12.540 --> 00:03:13.040 +ago, maybe a bit less. + +00:03:14.480 --> 00:03:14.680 +And then through the months, + +00:03:15.920 --> 00:03:16.420 +we just thought, oh yeah, + +00:03:17.420 --> 00:03:17.640 +maybe we could present this, + +00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:19.200 +maybe it would be interesting for people to + +00:03:20.660 --> 00:03:20.920 +see and that's how we came up with the idea + +00:03:22.440 --> 00:03:22.940 +to present at EmacsConf. + +00:03:27.900 --> 00:03:28.180 +[Speaker 0]: Okay, great. I don't see other people asking + +00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:30.540 +questions. So people, it's nice if I ask + +00:03:31.100 --> 00:03:31.600 +questions but you know, + +00:03:33.160 --> 00:03:33.340 +the point is kind of for you to ask the + +00:03:35.140 --> 00:03:35.280 +questions. I see someone who's joined us on + +00:03:36.780 --> 00:03:37.120 +BBB. Peter, would you like to ask a question + +00:03:41.720 --> 00:03:41.980 +maybe? Otherwise I see another person writing + +00:03:43.040 --> 00:03:43.260 +a question on the pad, + +00:03:44.540 --> 00:03:44.700 +so we can either move for this 1. + +00:03:46.640 --> 00:03:46.800 +So I'll leave Peter to figure out if they + +00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:47.960 +want to ask a question. + +00:03:49.160 --> 00:03:49.660 +So I'm moving on to the next question. + +00:03:57.900 --> 00:03:58.180 +[Speaker 2]: I can jump in. That's a really well done talk + +00:04:01.780 --> 00:04:02.120 +and you really clearly laid out the problem + +00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:03.500 +and the solution there. + +00:04:05.600 --> 00:04:05.740 +While I was watching it, + +00:04:10.740 --> 00:04:11.040 +I was thinking maybe the nice way to name it + +00:04:13.140 --> 00:04:13.440 +is just to name it query replace and query + +00:04:15.700 --> 00:04:16.019 +replace regext, you know, + +00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:18.980 +overloading the original functions and then + +00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:23.460 +using a prefix number, + +00:04:26.880 --> 00:04:27.380 +like control number to indicate how many + +00:04:29.280 --> 00:04:29.780 +replacements you're going to do. + +00:04:31.640 --> 00:04:32.140 +But maybe that doesn't work with the + +00:04:36.680 --> 00:04:37.120 +recursive editing stuff, + +00:04:37.960 --> 00:04:38.180 +which I don't use much. + +00:04:40.440 --> 00:04:40.940 +So I don't have a good method. + +00:04:43.260 --> 00:04:43.760 +[Speaker 1]: I think it would definitely work. + +00:04:46.260 --> 00:04:46.440 +Well, the question is, + +00:04:47.880 --> 00:04:48.380 +if we just overwrite the definitions, + +00:04:51.700 --> 00:04:52.200 +then, oh, well, I guess we could do that. + +00:04:53.410 --> 00:04:53.560 +Nothing stops us. I mean, + +00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:54.880 +we're in Emacs. We could definitely do that. + +00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:55.920 +And then if you give, like, + +00:04:57.540 --> 00:04:57.720 +a prefix argument, maybe it just drops you + +00:04:59.060 --> 00:04:59.560 +back to the original query replace. + +00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:01.160 +Yeah, that's an idea. For now, + +00:05:02.440 --> 00:05:02.920 +we decided, OK, let's just keep everything + +00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:05.240 +explicitly separate just to avoid any + +00:05:05.240 --> 00:05:05.740 +confusion. + +00:05:09.220 --> 00:05:09.400 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah, I think that's the right thing to do + +00:05:11.820 --> 00:05:12.320 +for now. What I'm actually thinking is that + +00:05:13.620 --> 00:05:13.940 +when you do query replace, + +00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:16.100 +it just does the regular query replace. + +00:05:17.220 --> 00:05:17.440 +And if you're going to do, + +00:05:20.140 --> 00:05:20.640 +say, 3 parallel replacements, + +00:05:21.340 --> 00:05:21.840 +then you do Control-U, + +00:05:25.580 --> 00:05:26.080 +query replace. Sorry. Control-3, + +00:05:28.580 --> 00:05:28.860 +query replace. And then that way you don't + +00:05:33.400 --> 00:05:33.760 +have The final prompt that you give nothing + +00:05:33.760 --> 00:05:34.260 +to. + +00:05:36.880 --> 00:05:37.380 +[Speaker 1]: Exactly, that's actually not a bad idea. + +00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:40.080 +I think I like that. Yeah, + +00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:41.300 +that's not a bad idea. + +00:05:44.760 --> 00:05:44.920 +[Speaker 0]: It's always a quagmire whether to ask for an + +00:05:47.080 --> 00:05:47.580 +argument or to use the universal argument. + +00:05:51.060 --> 00:05:51.380 +When you're working with Emacs and especially + +00:05:52.640 --> 00:05:52.960 +the UX side of things in the package, + +00:05:54.900 --> 00:05:55.020 +it's so complicated to figure out which 1 you + +00:05:56.880 --> 00:05:57.380 +want to do. In this particular case, + +00:06:00.340 --> 00:06:00.840 +I think it's the better option to use the + +00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:03.120 +universal argument or any kind of argument + +00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:04.540 +with a control number before. + +00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:10.440 +All right, we have about 3 more minutes of + +00:06:12.440 --> 00:06:12.720 +questions. Peter, if you don't mind, + +00:06:14.440 --> 00:06:14.940 +I'll keep reading the questions in the chat. + +00:06:19.440 --> 00:06:19.940 +Did you use pair programming while developing + +00:06:21.100 --> 00:06:21.600 +it, it being a package, + +00:06:22.440 --> 00:06:22.940 +or did you work independently, + +00:06:24.840 --> 00:06:25.340 +alternating and reviewing with Valentino? + +00:06:28.320 --> 00:06:28.440 +[Speaker 1]: It was definitely a pair programming kind of + +00:06:29.440 --> 00:06:29.940 +thing. So if I remember correctly, + +00:06:32.760 --> 00:06:33.260 +I was sitting at the computer and Valentino + +00:06:36.020 --> 00:06:36.520 +was in front of a whiteboard and we were just + +00:06:38.400 --> 00:06:38.900 +dissecting this regex and a bunch of examples + +00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:41.820 +and trying to get these capture groups and + +00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:44.440 +stuff that we have to remap internally to get + +00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:46.880 +these offsets right and avoid off by 1 error + +00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:48.420 +and stuff like that. So yeah, + +00:06:49.280 --> 00:06:49.780 +definitely a team effort. + +00:06:53.660 --> 00:06:54.160 +[Speaker 0]: Okay, great. Moving on to the next question. + +00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:55.740 +What is your background in programming? + +00:06:57.440 --> 00:06:57.620 +Was it difficult to implement following the + +00:06:59.700 --> 00:07:00.040 +same API and architecture as what is already + +00:07:00.200 --> 00:07:00.700 +in Emacs? + +00:07:05.400 --> 00:07:05.680 +[Speaker 1]: So maybe just a quick back story. + +00:07:06.960 --> 00:07:07.440 +Both Valentino and I are actually PhD + +00:07:08.300 --> 00:07:08.680 +students in computer science, + +00:07:09.960 --> 00:07:10.460 +and we literally share an office. + +00:07:12.960 --> 00:07:13.180 +So that's how we even started talking about + +00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:14.900 +this whole thing. And we both use Emacs, + +00:07:18.380 --> 00:07:18.640 +of course. But I don't think this was too + +00:07:20.740 --> 00:07:20.880 +hard to implement because luckily all of the + +00:07:22.300 --> 00:07:22.540 +interactive functionality like this + +00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:24.100 +complicated undo, skipping, + +00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:26.180 +execute until the end and so on, + +00:07:27.980 --> 00:07:28.380 +all of this is really just already provided + +00:07:29.860 --> 00:07:30.360 +by the Emacs queer replace implementation. + +00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:34.360 +So sort of what we do is we just invoke it as + +00:07:36.080 --> 00:07:36.220 +a function and delegate to it. + +00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:38.000 +And we came up with this clever trick to + +00:07:42.380 --> 00:07:42.560 +basically delegate this multi-replacement to + +00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:45.660 +this 1 single function that's already there. + +00:07:47.980 --> 00:07:48.480 +So it wasn't too complicated. + +00:07:54.780 --> 00:07:54.960 +[Speaker 0]: Alright. And we have about 2 minutes of time + +00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:56.040 +for the last question. + +00:07:58.040 --> 00:07:58.260 +What did you learn about Emacs programming or + +00:08:00.020 --> 00:08:00.100 +programming in general while working on this + +00:08:02.320 --> 00:08:02.820 +project? A very wide question for me. + +00:08:05.840 --> 00:08:06.340 +[Speaker 1]: Maybe 1 thing I would like to add to the + +00:08:09.220 --> 00:08:09.440 +previous just answer is I don't want to say + +00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:10.660 +like you know we're PhDs, + +00:08:12.780 --> 00:08:13.260 +a PhD is required for this or anything, + +00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:15.920 +not at all. It's mostly just for a little bit + +00:08:19.220 --> 00:08:19.720 +of context, but I think obviously, + +00:08:20.640 --> 00:08:21.020 +even if you're not a PhD, + +00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:22.540 +I mean, you don't even require like + +00:08:24.960 --> 00:08:25.460 +university, you know, education or anything. + +00:08:27.540 --> 00:08:28.040 +It wasn't overly difficult to implement, + +00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:31.080 +sort of just read some code that's already + +00:08:33.539 --> 00:08:34.039 +there and you know follow what you see and + +00:08:35.860 --> 00:08:36.020 +poke Emacs a little bit and do a little bit + +00:08:38.140 --> 00:08:38.320 +of debugging on the internals and you can + +00:08:40.280 --> 00:08:40.440 +definitely get it. So definitely not a + +00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:42.400 +prerequisite to have a degree or anything to + +00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:45.600 +do any of this stuff. Okay so Coming back to + +00:08:48.420 --> 00:08:48.560 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I'm going to amend a little bit the + +00:08:49.680 --> 00:08:49.960 +question because we only have 1 minute. + +00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:52.100 +So just 1 thing in 10 seconds, + +00:08:52.490 --> 00:08:52.540 +[Speaker 2]: what did you + +00:08:53.040 --> 00:08:53.540 +[Speaker 0]: learn about this? + +00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:54.380 +[Speaker 1]: your last question. What did I learn about + +00:08:56.420 --> 00:08:56.920 +Emacs programming? That Emacs is so flexible + +00:08:59.160 --> 00:08:59.360 +that I can go and I can patch literally its + +00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:01.880 +message function. And that is how we achieve + +00:09:03.680 --> 00:09:04.180 +the nice message function in the echo buffer. + +00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:06.980 +So I can literally go and patch something as + +00:09:07.560 --> 00:09:08.060 +crucial as message. + +00:09:09.920 --> 00:09:10.420 +[Speaker 0]: It's great. That's a lovely 1. + +00:09:12.260 --> 00:09:12.380 +And I think, again, we're going back to the + +00:09:13.660 --> 00:09:13.780 +philosophy of Emacs. Everything is + +00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:15.520 +programmable and even changing the message + +00:09:16.640 --> 00:09:16.800 +function is great. All right, + +00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:17.640 +well, thank you so much, + +00:09:19.540 --> 00:09:19.660 +Lovro, and thanks to Valentino as well, + +00:09:21.820 --> 00:09:21.960 +who's not here, but who's contributed to this + +00:09:23.900 --> 00:09:24.400 +talk. Any last word? + +00:09:29.540 --> 00:09:29.800 +[Speaker 1]: Well, just if you're gonna build any + +00:09:31.980 --> 00:09:32.160 +solutions, try to make them as foolproof and + +00:09:34.360 --> 00:09:34.540 +as 100% as possible so we get more of these + +00:09:36.280 --> 00:09:36.420 +goodies that are nice and robust for + +00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:37.500 +everybody to use. + +00:09:39.400 --> 00:09:39.620 +[Speaker 0]: All right, lovely. Well, + +00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:40.580 +thank you so much, Lover, + +00:09:41.940 --> 00:09:42.380 +for your presentation and your answer. + +00:09:44.340 --> 00:09:44.640 +We'll be moving on to the next talk in just + +00:09:47.260 --> 00:09:47.720 +about 5 seconds, and I'll see you after. + +00:09:47.900 --> 00:09:48.400 +Bye, Lovro! + +00:09:49.760 --> 00:09:50.260 +[Speaker 1]: Yep, bye bye! + +00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:01.560 +[Speaker 0]: So I'm just waiting to make sure my VNC is a + +00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:03.000 +little slow. Okay, we switch to the next + +00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:03.740 +talk. All right, Lover, + +00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:05.460 +I'm gonna need to go get ready now. + +00:10:09.060 --> 00:10:09.560 +Yep. Bye-bye, and thanks for your talk. + +00:10:11.160 --> 00:10:11.660 +[Speaker 1]: Bye, thank you, see you. + +00:10:15.060 --> 00:10:15.560 +[Speaker 2]: You diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-scheme--bringing-joy-to-scheme-programming--andrew-tropin--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-scheme--bringing-joy-to-scheme-programming--andrew-tropin--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..b681859e --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-scheme--bringing-joy-to-scheme-programming--andrew-tropin--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,371 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:16.200 --> 00:00:16.700 +[Speaker 0]: I see 2 questions on the panel already. + +00:00:22.660 --> 00:00:23.040 +Let's see, 1 asking how much Andrew uses + +00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:26.480 +these ripples remotely or versus on their own + +00:00:29.240 --> 00:00:29.740 +desktop. And another asking if this can be + +00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:31.660 +integrated with EGLOT. + +00:00:34.840 --> 00:00:35.060 +And I will note that it is very cool that + +00:00:36.580 --> 00:00:37.080 +this year we've had so many talks on Ripples. + +00:00:40.920 --> 00:00:41.140 +Just goes to show how powerful Emacs is and + +00:00:42.980 --> 00:00:43.140 +just how much or how far you can push it and + +00:00:44.040 --> 00:00:44.540 +how much you can do with it. + +00:00:53.460 --> 00:00:53.960 +And so see someone asking on IRC, + +00:00:57.780 --> 00:00:58.280 +if or how many people use GnuGeeks. + +00:01:01.400 --> 00:01:01.900 +Since we are talking about Scheme, + +00:01:05.740 --> 00:01:06.220 +GnuGeeks is a great platform slash operating + +00:01:10.380 --> 00:01:10.640 +system or distro for your test house, + +00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:12.420 +but also for servers and such. + +00:01:13.320 --> 00:01:13.780 +They do some impressive, + +00:01:15.240 --> 00:01:15.720 +amazing work. And it's all, + +00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:19.900 +pretty much all done in Gindugal's scheme. + +00:01:30.260 --> 00:01:30.760 +So very cool stuff. Bye. + +00:01:45.260 --> 00:01:45.760 +You + +00:03:19.940 --> 00:03:20.140 +I see another interesting question on the + +00:03:23.440 --> 00:03:23.940 +pad. How hard is it to add support for + +00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:25.460 +something other than Guile? + +00:03:28.040 --> 00:03:28.200 +And if it makes sense to contribute at this + +00:03:28.940 --> 00:03:29.440 +early stage of development? + +00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:32.220 +They said that they've written several + +00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:34.140 +packages for chicken skin before and they + +00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:35.900 +would like to try this 1 as well. + +00:05:26.380 --> 00:05:26.880 +I guess since Andrew isn't still here, + +00:05:29.480 --> 00:05:29.640 +and there was some chatter about GnuGeeks in + +00:05:32.400 --> 00:05:32.900 +the chat, maybe it might be nice for me to + +00:05:35.520 --> 00:05:35.800 +share my screen and plug Inukis for a little + +00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:39.000 +bit and introduce it or at least show its + +00:05:41.720 --> 00:05:41.980 +website to folks who may not have seen it yet + +00:05:43.380 --> 00:05:43.880 +so I'm going to try and do that now. + +00:05:45.260 --> 00:05:45.760 +You + +00:06:19.760 --> 00:06:20.260 +Okay, let's see if this works. + +00:06:33.540 --> 00:06:34.040 +Okay, so this is GNU Geeks' website. + +00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:35.500 +You can go to geeks.gnu.org. + +00:06:38.820 --> 00:06:39.180 +And they introduced it at the top. + +00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:43.980 +So it's a wholly free operating system or + +00:06:45.100 --> 00:06:45.600 +distribution of GNU Linux. + +00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:49.040 +Meaning that it only has free software + +00:06:50.840 --> 00:06:51.340 +packaged and no non-free packages, + +00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:53.940 +so it is endorsed by the FSF and the GNU + +00:06:56.640 --> 00:06:56.920 +project. As someone said in the chat, + +00:06:57.740 --> 00:06:58.240 +it's kind of like Nix, + +00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:01.860 +but instead built on GNU Gallop scheme. + +00:07:05.320 --> 00:07:05.820 +It has transactional upgrades and rollbacks. + +00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:10.380 +So if you do upgrade your system and let's + +00:07:11.180 --> 00:07:11.420 +say in the middle of it, + +00:07:13.200 --> 00:07:13.700 +your hardware fails or your power goes out, + +00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:16.720 +the likelihood of things being corrupted is + +00:07:18.840 --> 00:07:19.340 +very low because the upgrade is essentially + +00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:22.060 +prepared like in the background. + +00:07:24.140 --> 00:07:24.640 +And then pretty much atomically, + +00:07:26.780 --> 00:07:27.280 +the system is switched to it. + +00:07:30.400 --> 00:07:30.900 +And also if there is some kind of, + +00:07:32.400 --> 00:07:32.900 +sorry, I'm losing my voice here. + +00:07:34.840 --> 00:07:35.140 +If there is some kind of issue that makes + +00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:36.300 +your system unbootable, + +00:07:41.480 --> 00:07:41.660 +you could always go back to booting the + +00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:44.760 +previous revision of your system when you + +00:07:46.100 --> 00:07:46.600 +restart in the Grub bootloader. + +00:07:56.740 --> 00:07:57.180 +Yeah, so they have a nice blog where they + +00:07:59.340 --> 00:07:59.540 +regularly post updates and what's new in the + +00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:01.500 +project. You can go check that out. + +00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:07.500 +We also have a packages archive where you can + +00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:09.560 +see a list of all the software that has been + +00:08:11.060 --> 00:08:11.560 +packaged for GNU Geeks. + +00:08:13.620 --> 00:08:14.120 +It is an impressive list. + +00:08:16.440 --> 00:08:16.560 +I don't know how many tens of thousands of + +00:08:19.720 --> 00:08:20.220 +packages there are. Geeks has been growing + +00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:22.840 +very well. And you can search the packages + +00:08:29.380 --> 00:08:29.540 +here. And yeah, all kinds of things are + +00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:32.299 +packaged. Of course, GNU Emacs is packaged, + +00:08:37.260 --> 00:08:37.760 +along with many extensions or packages, + +00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:41.260 +GNU Emacs packages that are packaged as + +00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:43.340 +system packages for Geeks. + +00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:47.460 +Yeah, so definitely go check it out. + +00:08:55.680 --> 00:08:56.180 +You can use Geeks both as a standalone + +00:08:59.340 --> 00:08:59.840 +package manager, let's say on a Debian-based + +00:09:00.780 --> 00:09:01.280 +distribution like Triscale, + +00:09:06.180 --> 00:09:06.340 +for example, or you could install it like as + +00:09:08.900 --> 00:09:09.400 +a complete system distribution on its own. + +00:09:15.560 --> 00:09:16.000 +So the former is useful if you want to maybe + +00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:18.420 +get a taste for Geeks and try it out before + +00:09:21.140 --> 00:09:21.300 +fully committing to it and switching to it as + +00:09:24.620 --> 00:09:24.800 +your main distro. You can try it on top of + +00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:27.900 +any other distro pretty much and then you can + +00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:31.200 +of course install it on its own as well as a + +00:09:31.560 --> 00:09:32.060 +system distribution. + +00:09:50.940 --> 00:09:51.140 +Yeah, there are a bunch of manuals and + +00:09:53.040 --> 00:09:53.300 +reference cards and videos that you're + +00:09:55.920 --> 00:09:56.280 +welcome to watch. They have several mailing + +00:09:59.240 --> 00:09:59.440 +lists. It sounds like they have a wiki now as + +00:10:04.020 --> 00:10:04.400 +well. And the development is done on Gnu + +00:10:09.680 --> 00:10:10.180 +Savannah. If we go to savannah.gnu.org + +00:10:12.780 --> 00:10:13.280 +slash projects slash geeks, + +00:10:18.640 --> 00:10:18.820 +Yeah, the project is developed here and they + +00:10:21.300 --> 00:10:21.500 +have a bunch of repositories including the + +00:10:24.340 --> 00:10:24.840 +main 1 which is geeks.git + +00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:28.380 +itself. So yeah, folks are welcome to go + +00:10:32.380 --> 00:10:32.880 +check it out. Let's see, + +00:10:35.860 --> 00:10:36.260 +maybe we can go have a look at some package + +00:10:37.540 --> 00:10:37.840 +definitions, although I think we're almost + +00:10:38.940 --> 00:10:39.440 +out of time on the live stream. + +00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:43.100 +So, yeah, just quickly. + +00:10:45.280 --> 00:10:45.780 +Emacs to the CM has all the, + +00:10:48.640 --> 00:10:49.140 +Emacs packages or Emacs itself. + +00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:52.620 +And Emacs-xyz is where you'll find all the + +00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:54.980 +Emacs like ELPA packages, + +00:10:57.980 --> 00:10:58.260 +but package for use on GNU Geeks system or + +00:11:01.220 --> 00:11:01.360 +with GNU Geeks. And I think that's all the + +00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:04.580 +time that we have. So yeah, + +00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:06.300 +thanks for tuning in, folks. + +00:11:07.800 --> 00:11:08.300 +Please post your questions on the pad. + +00:11:09.280 --> 00:11:09.780 +We'll pass them on to Andrew. + +00:11:12.400 --> 00:11:12.720 +And yeah, hope you enjoy this. + +00:11:15.140 --> 00:11:15.360 +Definitely go check out Andrew's work and Gnu + +00:11:25.320 --> 00:11:25.580 +geeks as well. You are currently the only + +00:11:26.280 --> 00:11:26.780 +person in this conference. diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-sharing--sharing-emacs-is-caring-emacs-emacs-education-and-why-i-embraced-video--jacob-boxerman--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-sharing--sharing-emacs-is-caring-emacs-emacs-education-and-why-i-embraced-video--jacob-boxerman--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..2c35ee7e --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-sharing--sharing-emacs-is-caring-emacs-emacs-education-and-why-i-embraced-video--jacob-boxerman--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,1871 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:05.940 --> 00:00:06.060 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, we're live. So whoever's in the + +00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:08.380 +background might be able to see you live in + +00:00:09.900 --> 00:00:10.080 +about 10 seconds as soon as the stream + +00:00:11.380 --> 00:00:11.880 +catches up. Hi Jacob, how are you doing? + +00:00:12.360 --> 00:00:12.540 +[Speaker 0]: Got that? We're live. I'm doing well. + +00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:13.580 +How are you doing today? + +00:00:16.200 --> 00:00:16.400 +[Speaker 1]: I am doing well and this is the very last + +00:00:17.960 --> 00:00:18.160 +talk of the day so I'm very excited not + +00:00:20.020 --> 00:00:20.279 +because it finishes but because I am tired + +00:00:22.080 --> 00:00:22.580 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah very understandable. + +00:00:23.860 --> 00:00:24.320 +Well thanks for all of your hard work. + +00:00:26.180 --> 00:00:26.320 +We all really appreciate it and all the other + +00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:26.820 +organizers. + +00:00:28.980 --> 00:00:29.160 +[Speaker 1]: and need some sleep. Well on behalf of all + +00:00:30.980 --> 00:00:31.220 +the organizers thank you but you know it all + +00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:34.120 +it makes it all worthwhile when we see the + +00:00:36.280 --> 00:00:36.400 +valuable contribution that every single 1 of + +00:00:37.160 --> 00:00:37.660 +our speakers are making, + +00:00:39.559 --> 00:00:39.920 +not only for recording their talks, + +00:00:42.180 --> 00:00:42.380 +which is a tough demand on people to say, + +00:00:43.420 --> 00:00:43.920 +oh, if you want to go to EmacsConf, + +00:00:45.480 --> 00:00:45.980 +you might want to record your talk. + +00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:49.120 +But then almost all of you do it and you + +00:00:50.440 --> 00:00:50.640 +spend a lot of time with us answering + +00:00:51.580 --> 00:00:51.940 +questions. So we couldn't do it. + +00:00:53.680 --> 00:00:53.900 +You know, we wouldn't be spending as much + +00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:55.460 +energy, half as much energy, + +00:00:58.320 --> 00:00:58.660 +if we didn't believe that it was worth it. + +00:01:01.120 --> 00:01:01.320 +So now it's me thanking you on behalf of all + +00:01:01.480 --> 00:01:01.980 +the speakers. + +00:01:03.900 --> 00:01:04.200 +[Speaker 0]: Well thank you that's part of what I wanted + +00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:06.340 +to get across in my talk was that coming + +00:01:08.800 --> 00:01:09.000 +together and sharing ourselves and you know + +00:01:11.140 --> 00:01:11.320 +not just putting little little essays out + +00:01:13.020 --> 00:01:13.380 +there and single videos but coming together + +00:01:15.720 --> 00:01:15.940 +as a community you know sharing ourselves our + +00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:18.800 +faces our voices you know it really brings us + +00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:20.340 +together and makes everyone stronger. + +00:01:22.940 --> 00:01:23.400 +[Speaker 1]: Exactly, and I think it's been a recurring + +00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:27.440 +theme. Most of the talks we have at + +00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:29.200 +EmacsConf, they're usually about sharing, + +00:01:30.580 --> 00:01:30.800 +obviously, sharing the knowledge that they've + +00:01:32.960 --> 00:01:33.340 +acquired, either writing a package or + +00:01:35.860 --> 00:01:36.040 +learning how to use Emacs as a professor in + +00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:37.700 +academia or stuff like this. + +00:01:39.380 --> 00:01:39.600 +But what I particularly like this year about + +00:01:41.720 --> 00:01:41.960 +the different talks we've had is that they've + +00:01:44.479 --> 00:01:44.979 +really made the sharing even more obvious. + +00:01:46.720 --> 00:01:46.840 +We've had the mentoring this afternoon and we + +00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:49.740 +have your talk about using videos as a + +00:01:51.100 --> 00:01:51.600 +different medium to get into something. + +00:01:54.020 --> 00:01:54.520 +And I really think in terms of accessibility + +00:01:58.780 --> 00:01:58.940 +to Emacs, all of you who talked about this + +00:01:59.960 --> 00:02:00.180 +topic are doing a wonderful job. + +00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:01.900 +So, thank you again for all of this. + +00:02:04.080 --> 00:02:04.240 +[Speaker 0]: Thank you. Yeah, do we have any questions to + +00:02:04.360 --> 00:02:04.860 +be answering? + +00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:08.560 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so only 1 for now and I'll invite + +00:02:10.860 --> 00:02:11.200 +people as usual to please add their question + +00:02:12.720 --> 00:02:13.220 +to the pad or to join us on BBB. + +00:02:15.920 --> 00:02:16.080 +Now the chat is open if you want to join us + +00:02:17.480 --> 00:02:17.980 +on BBB and ask your questions directly. + +00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:20.740 +And in the meantime, I will read the first + +00:02:22.700 --> 00:02:23.200 +question. So, Kroting, + +00:02:25.040 --> 00:02:25.520 +are you using OxReveal to make your slides? + +00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:26.960 +If not, what are you using? + +00:02:27.740 --> 00:02:28.240 +They look very elegant, + +00:02:28.820 --> 00:02:29.320 +and I concur. + +00:02:32.920 --> 00:02:33.420 +[Speaker 0]: That's true. I am using OxReveal. + +00:02:35.320 --> 00:02:35.580 +I have a whole entire video on it. + +00:02:36.020 --> 00:02:36.520 +So if you're interested, + +00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:38.000 +feel free to take a look. + +00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:40.340 +It's very simple to get started with. + +00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:42.780 +There are a lot of different packages to use + +00:02:45.640 --> 00:02:46.140 +Reveal.js and Emacs. OxReveal or OrgReveal + +00:02:47.320 --> 00:02:47.820 +seems to be pretty easy to use. + +00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:49.020 +So try that 1 out. Yeah, + +00:02:49.440 --> 00:02:49.940 +it's really nice. + +00:02:54.020 --> 00:02:54.160 +[Speaker 1]: Awesome. I'm going to give a little bit of + +00:02:55.840 --> 00:02:56.200 +time for the other people to finish writing + +00:02:56.980 --> 00:02:57.260 +their answer. In the meantime, + +00:02:58.260 --> 00:02:58.660 +I'll ask you 1 of my own. + +00:02:59.620 --> 00:02:59.960 +So you said you were in college, + +00:03:01.500 --> 00:03:01.780 +right? In com sci. Sorry, + +00:03:02.980 --> 00:03:03.480 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah. + +00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:07.460 +[Speaker 1]: computer science. I think it's great to find + +00:03:08.860 --> 00:03:09.360 +people in computer science who have, + +00:03:11.780 --> 00:03:12.280 +from the get-go, as soon as their bachelor, + +00:03:16.220 --> 00:03:16.360 +an appetite for sharing and vulgarizing a lot + +00:03:17.780 --> 00:03:17.900 +of knowledge. Because it feels like if you + +00:03:18.540 --> 00:03:18.760 +get started like this, + +00:03:20.580 --> 00:03:20.740 +you're gonna have a well over time as you + +00:03:21.500 --> 00:03:21.820 +progress with the learning. + +00:03:23.720 --> 00:03:23.860 +So I'm very excited to see what you do in the + +00:03:24.720 --> 00:03:25.220 +coming years because of this. + +00:03:26.420 --> 00:03:26.920 +[Speaker 0]: Thank you, thank you, yeah. + +00:03:29.700 --> 00:03:29.860 +And Emacs has been like very central to my + +00:03:32.100 --> 00:03:32.300 +education as well. It's a great way to sort + +00:03:34.460 --> 00:03:34.640 +of organize myself and also it's a good way + +00:03:36.040 --> 00:03:36.220 +to share with other people with Org Mode. + +00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:38.500 +I can export my code, I can export notes. + +00:03:39.340 --> 00:03:39.840 +It makes it so simple. + +00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:42.720 +My peers are also impressed by my PDF + +00:03:44.260 --> 00:03:44.440 +documents and whatever I can produce with + +00:03:48.040 --> 00:03:48.160 +[Speaker 1]: Oh yeah. If only they knew how much time it + +00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:50.340 +takes us to get LaTeX to behave properly. + +00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:52.860 +[Speaker 0]: Emacs. Right, right. I see some more + +00:03:53.980 --> 00:03:54.480 +questions coming in I can answer. + +00:03:56.940 --> 00:03:57.100 +[Speaker 1]: Sure, I'll read it for you so that it's a + +00:03:57.440 --> 00:03:57.940 +little more interactive. + +00:03:59.920 --> 00:04:00.160 +So, second question. Videos can be very + +00:04:01.820 --> 00:04:02.320 +inspirational to learn about something by + +00:04:04.860 --> 00:04:05.360 +watching it used. I often find it, + +00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:07.440 +I often find that I need to do some research + +00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:09.440 +after watching a video to learn more. + +00:04:10.640 --> 00:04:11.040 +Do you give people links to relevant + +00:04:11.820 --> 00:04:12.320 +resources or etc? + +00:04:15.060 --> 00:04:15.300 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, that's something I could definitely do + +00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:18.300 +more of. When I make a video I try to combine + +00:04:20.459 --> 00:04:20.600 +all the relevant resources and make 1 sort of + +00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:24.100 +cohesive video. I like to think of my video + +00:04:26.580 --> 00:04:26.980 +as a jumping off point to the Emacs manuals + +00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:30.160 +because the manuals are so so full but you + +00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:31.800 +need to have a sort of a cursory + +00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:34.120 +understanding to get started with them. + +00:04:35.440 --> 00:04:35.600 +And then yeah, if there are other sort of + +00:04:36.880 --> 00:04:37.000 +GitHub links or something like that, + +00:04:38.220 --> 00:04:38.720 +I like to put those in the description. + +00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:42.980 +[Speaker 1]: Good question. Right. And I think it's arcing + +00:04:44.820 --> 00:04:45.320 +back also. I keep using the word arcing back. + +00:04:47.420 --> 00:04:47.580 +I'm sorry. It's my... Every EmacsConf I have + +00:04:49.440 --> 00:04:49.640 +1 word or 1 phrase that I keep saying over + +00:04:51.220 --> 00:04:51.360 +and over again and this 1 is not leaving but + +00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:53.240 +don't worry we only have about 1 more hour + +00:04:54.640 --> 00:04:55.140 +and then you're done with me arcing out, + +00:04:59.060 --> 00:04:59.540 +arcing back to stuff. I think this is + +00:05:03.740 --> 00:05:03.960 +reminding me of both the mentoring talk we've + +00:05:06.760 --> 00:05:07.120 +had today about onboarding people basically + +00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:08.600 +so that they can have a well of a time on + +00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:11.240 +their own on Emacs and I'd agree with you, + +00:05:13.180 --> 00:05:13.460 +you know, as much as we like to rave about + +00:05:15.140 --> 00:05:15.640 +Emacs as a self-documenting editor, + +00:05:17.700 --> 00:05:17.860 +about how complete the documentation is, + +00:05:18.940 --> 00:05:19.240 +As you've mentioned in your talk, + +00:05:21.220 --> 00:05:21.720 +it's not accessible directly to the people. + +00:05:23.620 --> 00:05:23.800 +We can yell as much as we want to people on + +00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:26.880 +IRC, you just need to RTFM or you just need + +00:05:29.280 --> 00:05:29.780 +to do Ctrl-H-V for the variable or Ctrl-H-F. + +00:05:32.040 --> 00:05:32.420 +What is a variable? I am not for computer + +00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:33.540 +science. What does it mean? + +00:05:36.580 --> 00:05:36.780 +It is really blocking a lot of people right + +00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:40.960 +from the get-go. And I think the element of + +00:05:42.340 --> 00:05:42.520 +interactivity, as you've mentioned in your + +00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:45.800 +talk, that is introduced by video just makes + +00:05:47.520 --> 00:05:48.020 +the hand-holding that much easier. + +00:05:50.940 --> 00:05:51.440 +And it's great to do it like this. + +00:05:53.400 --> 00:05:53.680 +All right, I think we've got another + +00:05:56.120 --> 00:05:56.320 +questions. What are your fellow codes of + +00:05:57.500 --> 00:05:58.000 +students using for their editors? + +00:06:00.200 --> 00:06:00.540 +What kinds of feedback do you get from them + +00:06:01.960 --> 00:06:02.460 +when they learn about you using Emacs? + +00:06:05.080 --> 00:06:05.580 +[Speaker 0]: That's a great question. + +00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:10.760 +I think professors want to make things, + +00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:12.740 +the entry as simple as possible. + +00:06:15.540 --> 00:06:15.700 +So for the first computer science course and + +00:06:16.640 --> 00:06:17.140 +the second, at least at Columbia, + +00:06:20.380 --> 00:06:20.880 +They use Codeo, which is 1 of those online + +00:06:25.740 --> 00:06:26.040 +whole IDEs. Now in the third course, + +00:06:27.520 --> 00:06:27.680 +which is sort of more the weed out as they + +00:06:29.820 --> 00:06:30.040 +call it, the professor gives you a choice and + +00:06:33.320 --> 00:06:33.820 +he says you can use Emacs or you can use Vim. + +00:06:36.340 --> 00:06:36.680 +And everyone uses Vim. + +00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:39.220 +Not a single person I know is using Emacs, + +00:06:43.380 --> 00:06:43.520 +simply because the professor's using Vim and + +00:06:45.080 --> 00:06:45.320 +that's what he shows on screen and that's + +00:06:46.640 --> 00:06:47.140 +just what everyone else falls into. + +00:06:50.220 --> 00:06:50.320 +And it's also, like, they're totally in the + +00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:52.320 +terminal, and that can be a big barrier of + +00:06:54.640 --> 00:06:55.140 +entry. So I think they see Emacs as like + +00:06:59.760 --> 00:07:00.060 +something like Vim, but it's not sort of the + +00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:01.960 +same idea. It's not what everyone uses + +00:07:03.840 --> 00:07:03.960 +because it's not what's being shown up on + +00:07:05.220 --> 00:07:05.660 +screen. So if you're not following, + +00:07:06.460 --> 00:07:06.880 +like if you're a new learner, + +00:07:08.300 --> 00:07:08.680 +if you're not following with Vim, + +00:07:10.320 --> 00:07:10.600 +you might have a little bit of a harder time + +00:07:12.740 --> 00:07:12.940 +in these classes because everyone else is + +00:07:14.060 --> 00:07:14.560 +also using Vim. + +00:07:19.640 --> 00:07:19.920 +[Speaker 1]: Right. And I'm kind of reminded again, + +00:07:21.260 --> 00:07:21.640 +it feels like this is the last talk, + +00:07:24.020 --> 00:07:24.280 +so I'm reminiscing of all the different talks + +00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:26.000 +we've had on the general chat, + +00:07:28.340 --> 00:07:28.580 +at least. And you know, + +00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:31.020 +it feels like we had, you know, + +00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:34.660 +this 1 talk, I can't remember the first name + +00:07:36.340 --> 00:07:36.680 +at the presentation, but it was about forcing + +00:07:38.760 --> 00:07:38.940 +people to use Emacs and not giving them the + +00:07:41.860 --> 00:07:42.040 +choice to do this. And I found it to be such + +00:07:45.060 --> 00:07:45.420 +a powerful move to do because usually people, + +00:07:47.440 --> 00:07:47.720 +maybe some classes are actually forcing Vim + +00:07:49.540 --> 00:07:49.920 +because it's a little more palatable I guess. + +00:07:51.020 --> 00:07:51.520 +Do you have something to say on this? + +00:07:53.760 --> 00:07:53.940 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah let me actually, I've remembered 1 + +00:07:55.380 --> 00:07:55.720 +thing, I know there's another course, + +00:07:58.880 --> 00:07:59.060 +a fourth course you'd say in assembly and the + +00:08:00.960 --> 00:08:01.460 +professor suggests Emacs. + +00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:04.340 +However I know that's just 1 professor so I + +00:08:06.740 --> 00:08:06.980 +think broadly Vim is more of the standard and + +00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:08.480 +yeah what were you, can you repeat what you + +00:08:09.880 --> 00:08:10.380 +said about Vim being more sort of friendly? + +00:08:12.880 --> 00:08:13.260 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, because it's not, + +00:08:14.960 --> 00:08:15.200 +okay, I'm quoting the opinions of other, + +00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:17.540 +you know, I would hate to insult Emacs and + +00:08:19.400 --> 00:08:19.840 +give myself a bad rep at Emacs comfortable + +00:08:23.200 --> 00:08:23.660 +things. But it feels like because modal + +00:08:26.280 --> 00:08:26.520 +editing is usually something that people hear + +00:08:28.260 --> 00:08:28.420 +from when it starts looking into how to be + +00:08:30.460 --> 00:08:30.920 +more efficient when they read text. + +00:08:32.220 --> 00:08:32.720 +It feels like the first door, + +00:08:35.140 --> 00:08:35.640 +the closest door to this is Vim. + +00:08:36.380 --> 00:08:36.880 +And so a lot of professors, + +00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:40.220 +because there's very little on-boarding, + +00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:41.980 +I mean, I'm going to say the word on-boarding + +00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:43.140 +and then I'm going to modulate, + +00:08:44.600 --> 00:08:44.760 +but there's very little on-boarding to get + +00:08:47.040 --> 00:08:47.480 +into modal editing. You just have your H's + +00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:50.380 +and your J's and your K's and your L's and + +00:08:51.020 --> 00:08:51.180 +everything works. You know, + +00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:52.680 +it does something, yes, + +00:08:53.640 --> 00:08:53.960 +the arrows are in weird places, + +00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:55.580 +but it does something that is vaguely + +00:08:58.260 --> 00:08:58.760 +logical. Whereas with Ctrl-Meta, + +00:09:03.380 --> 00:09:03.560 +Hyper, Super, J and then Ctrl-C and Meta 4 + +00:09:04.560 --> 00:09:05.060 +for good measure, you know, + +00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:08.140 +It already feels a little more opaque in + +00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:10.460 +terms of how people are going to use this. + +00:09:13.780 --> 00:09:13.940 +So, I think it's also 1 good thing about the + +00:09:15.860 --> 00:09:16.020 +videos is that people can see you're not + +00:09:17.900 --> 00:09:18.400 +contorting your hands in very difficult + +00:09:20.920 --> 00:09:21.420 +shapes to use Emacs as the bad rep usually + +00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:24.620 +is. But yeah, to come back to what I was + +00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:27.040 +saying about Vim, I just feel like they've + +00:09:30.460 --> 00:09:30.760 +won the battle in terms of looking very + +00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:34.340 +accessible. And for us with Emacs, + +00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:37.580 +from the top of our ivory tower, + +00:09:39.940 --> 00:09:40.440 +we see the ease of getting into Vim, + +00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:43.660 +but we always think, but Vim script is shit, + +00:09:44.700 --> 00:09:45.040 +we've got Elisp for us, + +00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:46.820 +We can do so many things on our end. + +00:09:51.180 --> 00:09:51.340 +So yeah, does that evoke anything to you with + +00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:53.160 +regards to Vim versus Emacs in terms of + +00:09:53.160 --> 00:09:53.660 +apprehension? + +00:09:56.820 --> 00:09:57.040 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I think that Emacs might be more + +00:09:59.320 --> 00:09:59.540 +straightforward if you just plop someone down + +00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:01.780 +in front of their computer because you press + +00:10:03.800 --> 00:10:04.300 +H, you're going to see an H on the screen, + +00:10:06.780 --> 00:10:07.280 +right? And Vim is a whole new modal mindset. + +00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:10.380 +So for a student who wants to like gain + +00:10:13.540 --> 00:10:13.740 +efficiency, then yes, I think that Vim is + +00:10:15.160 --> 00:10:15.360 +definitely like, it feels like a more + +00:10:16.280 --> 00:10:16.760 +friendly introduction. + +00:10:18.340 --> 00:10:18.600 +But I think that Emacs doesn't get enough + +00:10:20.580 --> 00:10:20.680 +credit around here. And I'd like to see it + +00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:23.460 +more often, because a lot of students, + +00:10:25.640 --> 00:10:26.140 +they're not looking to fix the efficiencies + +00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:28.580 +in their text editing. + +00:10:31.620 --> 00:10:31.780 +They're looking to fix the efficiencies in + +00:10:33.620 --> 00:10:34.120 +how they do homework or how they do their + +00:10:34.640 --> 00:10:35.140 +programming assignments, + +00:10:37.280 --> 00:10:37.540 +and they would save time if they, + +00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:39.820 +or at least the mentality for a student, + +00:10:42.500 --> 00:10:42.720 +is that if you can just get it done more + +00:10:43.980 --> 00:10:44.160 +quickly, like it's more, + +00:10:45.540 --> 00:10:45.720 +you know, you do what you're used to, + +00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:49.300 +and Vim is just a barrier towards you know + +00:10:51.040 --> 00:10:51.180 +getting your work done like how do I copy and + +00:10:52.800 --> 00:10:52.960 +paste something it's a whole new set of + +00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:55.280 +challenges to learn so I think both have + +00:10:56.920 --> 00:10:57.420 +their deficiencies and abilities. + +00:11:00.760 --> 00:11:00.920 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah it's funny because I'm just 1 last thing + +00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:03.680 +on this it feels like modal editing because + +00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:05.860 +it is already weird from the get-go, + +00:11:08.260 --> 00:11:08.640 +perhaps it might do a better job of making + +00:11:10.640 --> 00:11:10.760 +people uneasy. You know how we say that + +00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:12.100 +constraints breeds creativity. + +00:11:14.820 --> 00:11:15.180 +Well, Vim constrains you from the get-go. + +00:11:16.160 --> 00:11:16.620 +If you do not press I, + +00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:18.420 +nothing is going to show up in the buffer + +00:11:19.040 --> 00:11:19.540 +that you're currently editing. + +00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:22.000 +Whereas Emacs give you this full sense of + +00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:24.500 +security by when you press J, + +00:11:27.860 --> 00:11:28.360 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, true. + +00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:29.760 +[Speaker 1]: it actually inputs J. All right, + +00:11:30.540 --> 00:11:30.840 +moving on to another question. + +00:11:32.040 --> 00:11:32.540 +And by the way, we've got some time. + +00:11:34.740 --> 00:11:35.240 +We have technically about 6 more minutes, + +00:11:38.640 --> 00:11:38.940 +but I see Sasha on the other track is already + +00:11:40.400 --> 00:11:40.640 +answering questions that I'm in about + +00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:43.320 +EmacsConf. So we can go a little longer, + +00:11:44.760 --> 00:11:45.040 +as long as I let the organizers know. + +00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:46.200 +So we've got about, let's say, + +00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:48.320 +6 minutes for now. And we'll see if more + +00:11:50.020 --> 00:11:50.220 +questions crop up. All right, + +00:11:51.040 --> 00:11:51.540 +moving on to the next question. + +00:11:53.400 --> 00:11:53.760 +Did you start those university classes using + +00:11:55.180 --> 00:11:55.680 +Emacs, I suppose, in your first year? + +00:12:01.640 --> 00:12:01.780 +[Speaker 0]: Yes, yeah, I did. I started with Emacs 2 + +00:12:02.780 --> 00:12:03.120 +years before entering college, + +00:12:04.280 --> 00:12:04.780 +so my junior year of high school. + +00:12:09.220 --> 00:12:09.480 +And I've basically over time built up a + +00:12:11.180 --> 00:12:11.680 +workflow of how I will take my notes, + +00:12:12.900 --> 00:12:13.400 +how I will organize my classes. + +00:12:16.280 --> 00:12:16.780 +And now that I'm taking programming classes + +00:12:18.280 --> 00:12:18.780 +where Emacs might be more acceptable. + +00:12:21.500 --> 00:12:22.000 +It's even enhanced my workflow. + +00:12:24.760 --> 00:12:25.260 +Taking notes in Ouro for program assists, + +00:12:27.540 --> 00:12:27.720 +everyone talks about it, + +00:12:30.640 --> 00:12:30.880 +but from the source, It doesn't get better + +00:12:32.860 --> 00:12:33.080 +than that, being able to write with + +00:12:34.280 --> 00:12:34.780 +highlighting, with syntax highlighting, + +00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:38.720 +with easy exports, running inline code + +00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:41.380 +blocks. And a lot of these programming + +00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:43.460 +classes, they make you code on a server. + +00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:45.320 +And they just say, oh, + +00:12:46.500 --> 00:12:46.980 +SSH, and you can use Vim. + +00:12:48.560 --> 00:12:49.040 +I can use Tramp, and I can use Emacs, + +00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:50.940 +and I'm perfectly at home. + +00:12:52.760 --> 00:12:53.260 +It's just such a seamless transition. + +00:12:55.380 --> 00:12:55.760 +It's a really amazing way to do school. + +00:12:58.260 --> 00:12:58.580 +Professors, you know, all they want is a PDF + +00:12:59.220 --> 00:12:59.340 +at the end of the day. + +00:13:00.520 --> 00:13:01.020 +They just want the paper on their desk. + +00:13:03.420 --> 00:13:03.560 +They're not so picky about how you get it + +00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:05.340 +there. They just want it in their hands. + +00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:07.540 +So, so Emacs is, it's very usable. + +00:13:08.040 --> 00:13:08.540 +It's very doable. + +00:13:11.280 --> 00:13:11.580 +[Speaker 1]: Right. I've got a little anecdote on this + +00:13:13.740 --> 00:13:13.860 +because you're speaking about the topic of + +00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:16.280 +Emacs at university from the perspective of + +00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:18.100 +someone who is in computer science. + +00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:20.340 +But for me, in the humanities, + +00:13:22.900 --> 00:13:23.080 +I just remember those professors who just + +00:13:24.940 --> 00:13:25.440 +required you not to use your laptop. + +00:13:28.580 --> 00:13:28.780 +And I started with Emacs roughly at the same + +00:13:32.460 --> 00:13:32.700 +age as you did. And I was just using it for + +00:13:33.160 --> 00:13:33.580 +absolutely everything, + +00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:35.740 +for my organization, for producing papers. + +00:13:37.860 --> 00:13:38.000 +And to be told that I could not use Emacs for + +00:13:38.680 --> 00:13:39.180 +a class for my note-taking, + +00:13:43.660 --> 00:13:43.860 +I felt utterly naked in the face of what I + +00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:46.720 +needed to do. And yeah, + +00:13:47.800 --> 00:13:48.120 +it's great to see those different + +00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:49.540 +experiences. And it just, + +00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:50.800 +you're always going to be weird. + +00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:53.120 +Like I was the weird guy using Emacs in the + +00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:55.080 +humanities, but I would have been weird using + +00:13:58.440 --> 00:13:58.940 +Vim or any kind of computers with fancy + +00:13:59.060 --> 00:13:59.560 +editing. + +00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:02.580 +[Speaker 0]: Oh yeah, yeah. And I'm in humanities classes + +00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:04.340 +as well, I'm not in a strictly engineering, + +00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:06.880 +so people will see me writing an essay about, + +00:14:07.780 --> 00:14:08.080 +you know, a philosophy essay, + +00:14:09.820 --> 00:14:09.960 +I was working on an essay about Plato and + +00:14:11.180 --> 00:14:11.680 +Aristotle, and they say, + +00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:14.040 +what are you coding, why are you coding your + +00:14:16.620 --> 00:14:16.880 +essay? And I say, well it's just the font + +00:14:17.560 --> 00:14:18.060 +looks a little bit different. + +00:14:19.300 --> 00:14:19.640 +Everything else is the same words, + +00:14:20.800 --> 00:14:21.100 +just the font looks a little different. + +00:14:22.160 --> 00:14:22.660 +This is how I like to do it. + +00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:25.760 +[Speaker 1]: Oh, those pesky monospace fonts are making us + +00:14:27.880 --> 00:14:28.020 +pass as hackers. But for everyone who is + +00:14:29.060 --> 00:14:29.560 +behind us, looking at our monitors. + +00:14:30.040 --> 00:14:30.540 +[Speaker 0]: Exactly. + +00:14:33.900 --> 00:14:34.280 +[Speaker 1]: All right. A little bit of a remark, + +00:14:35.760 --> 00:14:36.020 +I guess, towards me and what I said about + +00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:37.860 +Vim. So, quoting, before NeoVim, + +00:14:39.140 --> 00:14:39.640 +you had to do as much or more configuration + +00:14:41.280 --> 00:14:41.760 +to get basic editing done than in Emacs. + +00:14:43.520 --> 00:14:43.780 +It's also slower with modal editing compared + +00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:45.520 +to Emacs key bindings because you have to + +00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:47.640 +press escape and 2 keys to get things done. + +00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:49.540 +While in Emacs, you only have to press Ctrl + +00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:52.360 +or Meta something to move or search or + +00:14:53.400 --> 00:14:53.900 +whatever, and then write. + +00:14:55.960 --> 00:14:56.460 +And I tend to agree, I'm not familiar with + +00:14:59.260 --> 00:14:59.760 +the ages before NeoVim, + +00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:03.620 +But I think we are mostly talking in terms of + +00:15:04.900 --> 00:15:05.400 +reputation and communication, + +00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:08.480 +like how is Vim considered nowadays or for + +00:15:10.760 --> 00:15:11.260 +the last 10 years in the mindset of people + +00:15:13.740 --> 00:15:14.240 +choosing or about to choose an editor. + +00:15:17.620 --> 00:15:17.860 +And, You know, I keep spitting the fact about + +00:15:19.340 --> 00:15:19.480 +VimScript being bad, but I'm going to be + +00:15:20.800 --> 00:15:20.980 +honest, I've never actually written any + +00:15:24.180 --> 00:15:24.400 +VimScript. I'm just parroting whatever the + +00:15:26.760 --> 00:15:26.960 +giants with shoulders I'm standing have been + +00:15:28.260 --> 00:15:28.740 +saying to me. And it's not very intelligent, + +00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:31.280 +I know, but We also have a very limited pool + +00:15:34.340 --> 00:15:34.540 +of time, and I also think that this is a + +00:15:36.460 --> 00:15:36.960 +point that your talk addresses in a way. + +00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:40.740 +Yes, we could be starting the massive quest + +00:15:42.740 --> 00:15:43.180 +of reading the Emacs manual or the ELISP + +00:15:45.100 --> 00:15:45.480 +introductory guide or the ELISP complete + +00:15:47.620 --> 00:15:48.120 +guide. A lot of people are trying, + +00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:49.440 +very highly motivated, + +00:15:51.140 --> 00:15:51.220 +I'm going to get started on Emacs and I'm + +00:15:51.940 --> 00:15:52.440 +going to do things right. + +00:15:53.760 --> 00:15:54.260 +But the fact of the matter is, + +00:15:56.580 --> 00:15:56.820 +it's not necessarily a good use of your time + +00:15:57.740 --> 00:15:58.240 +to get started like this, + +00:16:00.680 --> 00:16:00.840 +because there are so many things you're not + +00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:03.660 +going to understand, it kind of goes back, + +00:16:04.640 --> 00:16:04.920 +didn't say iBug this time, + +00:16:07.700 --> 00:16:08.200 +I stopped myself, it kind of goes back to + +00:16:11.040 --> 00:16:11.240 +this I plus 1 Vigoski proximals on + +00:16:12.740 --> 00:16:12.940 +development stuff that I was talking about + +00:16:16.020 --> 00:16:16.520 +before. The manual is I plus 999. + +00:16:20.940 --> 00:16:21.140 +Your video might be I plus 3 or I plus 2 and + +00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:23.480 +the hand-holding really does wonders for + +00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:26.400 +people to eventually get closer to reading + +00:16:27.540 --> 00:16:28.040 +the manuals and stuff like this. + +00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:31.500 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah it's a great way just something about + +00:16:33.160 --> 00:16:33.660 +giving someone those practical + +00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:35.240 +demonstrations, that's something I really + +00:16:36.860 --> 00:16:37.080 +appreciate. A lot of these really nice + +00:16:38.520 --> 00:16:39.020 +presentations we've had today and yesterday + +00:16:41.920 --> 00:16:42.100 +show real life use cases and we get to see + +00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:44.480 +people typing and they're working how they + +00:16:46.680 --> 00:16:46.920 +would normally work. And that's a great way + +00:16:49.040 --> 00:16:49.200 +to begin to understand how you can apply a + +00:16:50.680 --> 00:16:50.800 +tool to yourself because at the end of the + +00:16:52.040 --> 00:16:52.360 +day Emacs is a tool for us. + +00:16:53.760 --> 00:16:54.060 +You know we might take joy in it, + +00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:55.440 +it helps us be more productive, + +00:16:58.040 --> 00:16:58.540 +it's fun but we're using it for a certain end + +00:17:00.880 --> 00:17:01.080 +and you know if we how we can understand to + +00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:03.280 +get to those ends and what those ends might + +00:17:05.740 --> 00:17:06.240 +even be. It's just great to see other people + +00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:07.940 +bring that forth for you. + +00:17:12.380 --> 00:17:12.619 +[Speaker 1]: Okay, great. Well, I don't see any more + +00:17:13.980 --> 00:17:14.480 +questions in the chat currently, + +00:17:17.020 --> 00:17:17.160 +and I don't see anyone who's joined us on the + +00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:19.760 +blue button. We are near the time that I said + +00:17:22.420 --> 00:17:22.920 +we've got about 40 seconds to go until we + +00:17:24.060 --> 00:17:24.400 +were due to end. Jacob, + +00:17:26.099 --> 00:17:26.240 +I kind of want to give you the microphone for + +00:17:27.339 --> 00:17:27.500 +the end. Do you have anything to say? + +00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:28.680 +Like you've talked about your YouTube + +00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:30.720 +channel, we've already ensured that the links + +00:17:31.960 --> 00:17:32.360 +will be everywhere on the talk page, + +00:17:34.280 --> 00:17:34.640 +in the pad, on IRC. But is there anything + +00:17:35.540 --> 00:17:35.740 +else you'd like to add? + +00:17:37.120 --> 00:17:37.620 +Because you're the last speaker of EmacsCon, + +00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:40.140 +and you've got the tough responsibility of + +00:17:42.040 --> 00:17:42.540 +finishing it. + +00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:45.920 +[Speaker 0]: Oh, well, that's not tough at all when we've + +00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:47.960 +had 2 days. I mean, so many people, + +00:17:51.300 --> 00:17:51.440 +so many presenters coming together and like I + +00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:53.140 +said right at the beginning to Leo, + +00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:55.200 +putting your face out there, + +00:17:56.180 --> 00:17:56.680 +putting your voice out there, + +00:17:57.620 --> 00:17:58.120 +putting yourself out there, + +00:18:00.060 --> 00:18:00.380 +it's such a great way to come together + +00:18:02.080 --> 00:18:02.580 +because Emacs is not the standard. + +00:18:04.540 --> 00:18:04.820 +You know, I've tried to teach my friends + +00:18:06.040 --> 00:18:06.540 +Emacs, I've tried to show it to them. + +00:18:08.360 --> 00:18:08.480 +You know, some people you get it or you + +00:18:10.320 --> 00:18:10.600 +don't. And the people who get it, + +00:18:11.740 --> 00:18:12.240 +we're not all in the same place. + +00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:13.940 +And it's great. + +00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:15.860 +[Speaker 1]: I'm interrupting you for a second because I + +00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:18.460 +think we were supposed to kill the the cron + +00:18:20.220 --> 00:18:20.720 +which starts the next meeting and it hasn't. + +00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:22.940 +Let me try to fix it. I'll talk to production + +00:18:25.360 --> 00:18:25.860 +[Speaker 0]: Do I wait or keep going? + +00:18:27.360 --> 00:18:27.560 +[Speaker 1]: in a second. Just wait a bit. + +00:18:29.260 --> 00:18:29.440 +I'm very sorry. I've given you the mic and + +00:18:35.280 --> 00:18:35.440 +then it just... Okay let me just check your + +00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:35.940 +production. + +00:18:59.660 --> 00:18:59.720 +What? All right, Jason. + +00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:01.120 +All right, Jacob, I'm going to put us + +00:19:02.080 --> 00:19:02.320 +manually back on track. + +00:19:03.080 --> 00:19:03.580 +So give me just a second. + +00:19:04.220 --> 00:19:04.720 +[Speaker 0]: Right. + +00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:09.740 +[Speaker 1]: I'm going to manually type the URL, + +00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:12.720 +because it's a janky setup that we've got + +00:19:13.980 --> 00:19:14.440 +right now, when whenever it's not working. + +00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:20.900 +All right. So tps slash slash bbb emacs first + +00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:23.500 +dot org html. No, that's not the 1. + +00:19:27.180 --> 00:19:27.440 +Let me try to type it. + +00:19:27.900 --> 00:19:28.400 +Probably. Bbbemaxfirst. + +00:19:42.700 --> 00:19:43.180 +L5H, R5D, BH0 Okay, we're getting back Okay, + +00:19:44.380 --> 00:19:44.740 +sorry folks about this We are, + +00:19:45.360 --> 00:19:45.860 +Jacob, We're back online. + +00:19:46.800 --> 00:19:47.080 +I'm really sorry about this. + +00:19:49.040 --> 00:19:49.540 +It's just that Sasha's script kicked in. + +00:19:51.140 --> 00:19:51.280 +I did tell you we were supposed to finish at + +00:19:53.940 --> 00:19:54.060 +30. And because Sasha is busy presenting in + +00:19:54.940 --> 00:19:55.320 +the other room, sadly, + +00:19:57.100 --> 00:19:57.400 +we got yanked again. So Jacob, + +00:19:58.280 --> 00:19:58.780 +I'm very sorry for the interruption. + +00:20:01.220 --> 00:20:01.560 +And you were retelling people about something + +00:20:02.320 --> 00:20:02.820 +you told me during the check-ins. + +00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:04.940 +Do you mind restarting this? + +00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:09.660 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, sure. Well, you said I have the no + +00:20:12.180 --> 00:20:12.480 +small task of making the last words from + +00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:14.640 +presenters and not the organizers at + +00:20:16.260 --> 00:20:16.500 +EmacsConf. And I said, + +00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:18.380 +well, that's not hard at all. + +00:20:20.540 --> 00:20:20.760 +How many speakers have we had? + +00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:24.860 +30? And it's so incredible these past, + +00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:27.080 +you know, today and yesterday to have all + +00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:29.960 +been able to come together and not just share + +00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:34.420 +our ideas and our code and how we do things, + +00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:38.300 +but to share our faces and our voices and our + +00:20:39.780 --> 00:20:40.120 +lives, you know a little bit of our lives. + +00:20:42.100 --> 00:20:42.380 +You know to have the passion to even spend + +00:20:44.900 --> 00:20:45.400 +the time to on your weekend to watch this + +00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:47.660 +means that you have some sort of care about + +00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:49.660 +Emacs and it adds to your life. + +00:20:51.820 --> 00:20:52.080 +And you know those Emacs people aren't + +00:20:53.620 --> 00:20:53.980 +everywhere. I've tried to bring my friends + +00:20:56.040 --> 00:20:56.320 +onto Emacs and it seems like you know you're + +00:20:58.900 --> 00:20:59.220 +an Emacs person or you're not really an Emacs + +00:21:02.360 --> 00:21:02.640 +person. And those Emacs people can be really + +00:21:04.840 --> 00:21:05.000 +spread out. So it's great that we're able to + +00:21:07.900 --> 00:21:08.000 +come together and share a little bit of + +00:21:09.760 --> 00:21:10.260 +ourselves, a little bit of how we do things. + +00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:12.720 +And like I said in my talk, + +00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:15.880 +just increase our own joy in Emacs by coming + +00:21:19.360 --> 00:21:19.540 +together and being able to share our joy in + +00:21:21.760 --> 00:21:21.900 +Emacs. And of course, thank you to all the + +00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:25.120 +organizers and everyone who's contributed in + +00:21:27.980 --> 00:21:28.380 +any way. It means a lot to even the smallest + +00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:30.200 +member, the biggest member of our community. + +00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:33.700 +We're all really glad to be able to come + +00:21:36.300 --> 00:21:36.520 +together like this and share and meet each + +00:21:37.820 --> 00:21:38.320 +other and give nice talks. + +00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:40.440 +[Speaker 1]: Well, thank you so much, + +00:21:42.340 --> 00:21:42.780 +Jacob. And perhaps to reassure people, + +00:21:44.900 --> 00:21:45.060 +because yes, right now it feels like we are + +00:21:47.040 --> 00:21:47.300 +legions, all of us here in the same room + +00:21:47.960 --> 00:21:48.400 +watching the same thing. + +00:21:50.740 --> 00:21:50.900 +We are the Emacs' and that's a very good + +00:21:52.540 --> 00:21:52.840 +feeling to have. But you know, + +00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:55.140 +first, there's 1 thing that is certain, + +00:21:58.380 --> 00:21:58.660 +almost 99% certain, it's the fact that next + +00:22:00.300 --> 00:22:00.800 +year there'll probably be another EmacsConf + +00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:03.340 +and there will be more Emacs versions, + +00:22:04.540 --> 00:22:04.940 +there will be more augmented versions, + +00:22:07.300 --> 00:22:07.480 +there will be more people doing cool stuff on + +00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:12.040 +Melpa, on ELPA, etc. So it is still a vibrant + +00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:14.700 +community. But in case you're craving this + +00:22:17.260 --> 00:22:17.760 +little extra in-person stuff, + +00:22:20.280 --> 00:22:20.500 +Sash and myself, we are maintaining a list of + +00:22:21.560 --> 00:22:21.820 +all the Emacs user group. + +00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:23.080 +This is on the Emacs wiki. + +00:22:24.140 --> 00:22:24.440 +This is what I'm sharing on my screen + +00:22:27.500 --> 00:22:27.720 +currently. And we try to organize them by + +00:22:30.100 --> 00:22:30.340 +regional region, sorry, + +00:22:31.560 --> 00:22:32.020 +parts of the world like North America, + +00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:33.120 +South America, Europe, + +00:22:36.300 --> 00:22:36.680 +Africa, Asia. And we have a list of upcoming + +00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:39.500 +events and a lot of them are still online. + +00:22:41.420 --> 00:22:41.920 +Ever since we had the entire pandemic stuff, + +00:22:46.940 --> 00:22:47.440 +a lot of the workshops moved online and, + +00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:50.320 +sorry, I had someone whispering in my ear. + +00:22:53.100 --> 00:22:53.400 +A lot of them moved online and they are still + +00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:55.080 +online now because they've realized it's a + +00:22:57.100 --> 00:22:57.280 +very great way to get more people in the same + +00:22:59.640 --> 00:22:59.960 +place. And whilst it's great to have + +00:23:01.560 --> 00:23:01.920 +in-person meetings, We do this with Emacs + +00:23:05.140 --> 00:23:05.340 +Paris. Emacs Paris actually is happening is + +00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:07.840 +it? I think, oh I'm going to need to tell + +00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:10.280 +Sasha that apparently yes we do not have the + +00:23:12.380 --> 00:23:12.600 +next event for Emacs Paris which is next + +00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:15.140 +Tuesday and it is in person but for everyone + +00:23:18.580 --> 00:23:18.740 +and including you Jacob if you find a + +00:23:20.460 --> 00:23:20.640 +workshop in North America that is working for + +00:23:22.540 --> 00:23:23.020 +you, I'm thinking about Emacs SF, + +00:23:24.660 --> 00:23:24.940 +which I've attended multiple times, + +00:23:27.980 --> 00:23:28.220 +and Emacs Austin as well, + +00:23:29.060 --> 00:23:29.340 +that I've been to once, + +00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:31.780 +I think, It would be a lovely experience and + +00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:34.540 +a way to, most of them are every month, + +00:23:36.040 --> 00:23:36.160 +it would be a good way for you to stay in + +00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:39.440 +touch and to continue this sense of + +00:23:40.580 --> 00:23:41.080 +in-person-ness about Emacs. + +00:23:46.560 --> 00:23:46.800 +[Speaker 0]: Wonderful. All right, thank you so much. + +00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:49.400 +Should I drop off of our call now and let you + +00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:50.500 +close things up? + +00:23:52.600 --> 00:23:52.760 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, we're probably gonna close thing up. + +00:23:53.600 --> 00:23:53.940 +Let me just check on Sasha. + +00:23:55.380 --> 00:23:55.560 +Sasha is obviously answering many many + +00:23:57.180 --> 00:23:57.660 +questions about how we are organizing + +00:23:59.540 --> 00:23:59.640 +EmacsConf. So Jacob, I'm gonna let you go. + +00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:01.680 +Thank you so much for your presentation and + +00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:03.920 +your answers. And maybe we'll see you next + +00:24:05.020 --> 00:24:05.240 +year. Or maybe a workshop. + +00:24:06.820 --> 00:24:07.320 +[Speaker 0]: Who knows? I'm so lucky I got you as my Q&A. + +00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:10.760 +When I saw you at my first Emacs Conf 2 years + +00:24:12.740 --> 00:24:13.240 +ago, I thought, maybe this guy will do mine. + +00:24:18.840 --> 00:24:19.240 +[Speaker 1]: Very nice. Thank you. I'm glad I was able to + +00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:20.280 +generate such a feeling. + +00:24:21.600 --> 00:24:22.100 +All right, I'll get going now. + +00:24:23.260 --> 00:24:23.760 +Jacob, have a wonderful evening. + +00:24:23.940 --> 00:24:24.140 +[Speaker 0]: And here you are. You too, + +00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:24.900 +see you later. + +00:24:28.140 --> 00:24:28.320 +[Speaker 1]: Bye-bye. And folks, what are we going to do + +00:24:30.300 --> 00:24:30.520 +right now? I'm going to set everything up so + +00:24:32.520 --> 00:24:33.020 +that we can get Sasha finished on the talk. + +00:24:34.840 --> 00:24:35.060 +If you're watching, squinting with both + +00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:38.080 +streams, you can go to Sasha's room, + +00:24:39.520 --> 00:24:40.020 +I mean, the development track, + +00:24:42.180 --> 00:24:42.680 +to maybe catch some of the answers by Sasha. + +00:24:45.040 --> 00:24:45.160 +Otherwise, we'll be back in roughly 5 to 10 + +00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:47.120 +minutes to do the closing remarks on this + +00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:48.040 +channel. In the meantime, + +00:24:48.840 --> 00:24:49.340 +I'll put on some music. + +00:24:51.300 --> 00:24:51.800 +So bear with us and I'll see you shortly. + +00:25:15.660 --> 00:25:16.160 +And closing here. This BBB recording. + +00:25:16.360 --> 00:25:16.860 +Yay! diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-solo--how-i-play-ttrpgs-in-emacs--howard-abrams--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-solo--how-i-play-ttrpgs-in-emacs--howard-abrams--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..edf50d33 --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-solo--how-i-play-ttrpgs-in-emacs--howard-abrams--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,1304 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:02.899 --> 00:00:03.260 +[Speaker 0]: Right. Okay, so hi everyone. + +00:00:04.540 --> 00:00:04.839 +We are now live. Hi Howard, + +00:00:06.339 --> 00:00:06.839 +how are you doing? Great. + +00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:10.460 +Lovely to hear. As usual, + +00:00:11.980 --> 00:00:12.480 +it's always a pleasure to see your + +00:00:14.440 --> 00:00:14.599 +presentation and the amount of time and + +00:00:15.360 --> 00:00:15.780 +energy you put into it. + +00:00:17.680 --> 00:00:17.860 +Slightly sorry about the shoppiness of the + +00:00:18.680 --> 00:00:19.119 +broadcast. Do not worry, + +00:00:22.700 --> 00:00:23.200 +the talk will be in its full 30 fps quality + +00:00:24.779 --> 00:00:25.160 +on the website after the conference. + +00:00:26.759 --> 00:00:26.939 +Actually, right now. It's available right + +00:00:30.099 --> 00:00:30.279 +now. As usual, feel free to ask your + +00:00:31.560 --> 00:00:31.920 +questions in the in the pad. + +00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:34.360 +We've linked it both on the talk page and on + +00:00:38.400 --> 00:00:38.760 +IRC. I think I am on the right 1, + +00:00:40.080 --> 00:00:40.580 +right? This is a solo. + +00:00:42.660 --> 00:00:43.160 +Guys, questions, where are they? + +00:00:45.060 --> 00:00:45.300 +Oh, we do have questions, + +00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:47.240 +it's just that they're not in the right part. + +00:00:47.960 --> 00:00:48.340 +Okay, so I'm going to start, + +00:00:49.739 --> 00:00:49.920 +I'm going to read the questions to Howard and + +00:00:50.860 --> 00:00:51.260 +Howard will be answering them. + +00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:53.220 +And if you are interested in asking questions + +00:00:54.620 --> 00:00:54.860 +directly to Howard, I see a lot of people + +00:00:55.640 --> 00:00:56.140 +have joined us on BBB, + +00:00:58.540 --> 00:00:58.780 +so we'll first go through the questions on + +00:01:00.800 --> 00:01:01.020 +the pad and then we'll move on to the people + +00:01:03.340 --> 00:01:03.560 +on BBB. So Howard, starting with the first + +00:01:06.300 --> 00:01:06.460 +question, does table data allow for + +00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:08.800 +recursion, e.g. The result that returns they + +00:01:10.600 --> 00:01:10.940 +are random monster haunting the cavern + +00:01:14.060 --> 00:01:14.280 +entrance and we roll on random monster and + +00:01:16.420 --> 00:01:16.700 +inject them, inject into the result? + +00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:18.420 +Sorry a little bit of a complicated question. + +00:01:21.900 --> 00:01:22.200 +Do you want me to read it again, + +00:01:23.620 --> 00:01:24.120 +perhaps? Yeah, I think so. + +00:01:25.240 --> 00:01:25.740 +I didn't quite catch that. + +00:01:28.860 --> 00:01:29.060 +Okay, so does the table data allow for + +00:01:30.180 --> 00:01:30.550 +recursion? So I think... + +00:01:31.560 --> 00:01:31.880 +[Speaker 1]: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. + +00:01:33.960 --> 00:01:34.240 +No, it does. I put a little, + +00:01:35.440 --> 00:01:35.940 +you know, there's some code that could, + +00:01:38.660 --> 00:01:38.940 +so you could, yeah, you get a random value + +00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:41.380 +that gets inserted and that random value + +00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:43.580 +could refer to another table and it can keep + +00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:46.500 +on going. I have not pushed that that hard + +00:01:48.320 --> 00:01:48.820 +because obviously it's, + +00:01:50.880 --> 00:01:50.980 +it might be a little on the heavyweight side. + +00:01:52.540 --> 00:01:52.760 +I can't imagine it to go too deep, + +00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:53.260 +though. + +00:01:56.820 --> 00:01:56.979 +[Speaker 0]: I'm pretty sure Emacs would be complaining if + +00:01:57.940 --> 00:01:58.320 +you go a little too deep. + +00:01:59.979 --> 00:02:00.479 +We have something as Mike's list recursion, + +00:02:01.420 --> 00:02:01.840 +and stuff like this. So don't worry. + +00:02:03.440 --> 00:02:03.940 +Go willy nilly with your recursions. + +00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:07.240 +We've got comments about the fact that it's a + +00:02:09.180 --> 00:02:09.680 +really cool project and I feel like everyone + +00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:11.180 +watching would be agreeing. + +00:02:14.100 --> 00:02:14.340 +You've got a question about where you can get + +00:02:16.620 --> 00:02:16.780 +this. Do you have a github repository with + +00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:17.580 +all of this? + +00:02:20.440 --> 00:02:20.600 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, and at the well at the end of the + +00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:22.960 +presentation I kind of display that and I + +00:02:25.920 --> 00:02:26.420 +think I put it at the top of the the pad + +00:02:35.220 --> 00:02:35.720 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah, there's a + +00:02:36.760 --> 00:02:37.260 +[Speaker 0]: Yes. I don't go Gone please. + +00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:38.820 +[Speaker 1]: Nothing there. There's a lot of stuff that + +00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:40.580 +needs to be reformatted. + +00:02:46.820 --> 00:02:46.940 +This is all Aflacode, so obviously it's a + +00:02:49.180 --> 00:02:49.480 +personal hack. So people should just steal + +00:02:51.880 --> 00:02:52.160 +the code as opposed to looking at a real + +00:02:52.760 --> 00:02:53.260 +project to use. + +00:03:00.420 --> 00:03:00.660 +[Speaker 0]: Right, lovely. So this game plus CRDT should + +00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:02.460 +be great for non-solid plays. + +00:03:03.640 --> 00:03:04.140 +Are you familiar with CRDT? + +00:03:08.160 --> 00:03:08.360 +[Speaker 1]: Well, so I used to use Flubits once upon a + +00:03:11.880 --> 00:03:12.160 +time and after seeing the previous talk on + +00:03:14.060 --> 00:03:14.340 +CRDT it's like, oh, I like that, + +00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:16.500 +and yes, I think that would be a fun idea. + +00:03:19.860 --> 00:03:20.080 +[Speaker 0]: I think I remember, so I did something much + +00:03:21.040 --> 00:03:21.300 +more humble than you did. + +00:03:24.660 --> 00:03:24.960 +I did a little bit, a little package in Org + +00:03:27.940 --> 00:03:28.080 +Mode for rolling dice and you had like a + +00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:31.780 +little formula like you could write 60 20 and + +00:03:34.740 --> 00:03:35.240 +it would throw 6 dice with 20 faces, + +00:03:39.060 --> 00:03:39.560 +60 sorry, 6 die, Frenchmen here in the room, + +00:03:43.660 --> 00:03:43.980 +20 faces and it would average them out or + +00:03:45.140 --> 00:03:45.640 +provide you any kind of stats needed. + +00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:49.020 +And this type of stuff works really well over + +00:03:52.540 --> 00:03:53.040 +CRDT because it's 1 edit inside of a file. + +00:03:55.900 --> 00:03:56.320 +If you start making edits in different parts + +00:03:58.780 --> 00:03:59.040 +of your file, it starts becoming a little + +00:04:02.060 --> 00:04:02.260 +more complicated because CRDT struggles when + +00:04:04.480 --> 00:04:04.640 +you're making many discrete changes inside of + +00:04:05.640 --> 00:04:06.140 +the same file. Does that make sense? + +00:04:07.640 --> 00:04:08.140 +[Speaker 1]: It does, it does. Interesting. + +00:04:10.120 --> 00:04:10.280 +Okay, yeah, no, I have not played with it + +00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:10.780 +yet. + +00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:14.540 +[Speaker 0]: Well, feel free to play with it and if you've + +00:04:16.320 --> 00:04:16.820 +got any kind of... If it works, + +00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:18.120 +it works and it's amazing, + +00:04:20.200 --> 00:04:20.380 +but if it doesn't, feel free to send us + +00:04:21.180 --> 00:04:21.680 +messages because Shantan, + +00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:23.740 +who's the maintainer of CRDT, + +00:04:25.840 --> 00:04:26.000 +we've been looking into options to make it a + +00:04:28.380 --> 00:04:28.880 +little more resilient and work elsewhere for + +00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:31.860 +securely. Excellent. All right, + +00:04:34.600 --> 00:04:35.080 +Great. I'm going back to the previous + +00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:37.500 +question. So does the current version also + +00:04:39.020 --> 00:04:39.520 +have some utilities for doing multiplayer, + +00:04:41.140 --> 00:04:41.640 +like either physically or digitally, + +00:04:42.520 --> 00:04:43.020 +like we've done with CRUT? + +00:04:45.060 --> 00:04:45.300 +The question is because you mentioned you + +00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:47.860 +previously did multiplayer session as well? + +00:04:51.180 --> 00:04:51.680 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I mean, I was using the table, + +00:04:55.940 --> 00:04:56.060 +the random table at a random entry kind of + +00:04:58.460 --> 00:04:58.960 +thing. I was using that at my table. + +00:05:00.780 --> 00:05:01.280 +So, I'm an eternal DM. + +00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:03.420 +So I would always use that. + +00:05:05.020 --> 00:05:05.220 +Like somebody says, what's the name of that + +00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:07.400 +shopkeep? And I could just hit a key, + +00:05:08.440 --> 00:05:08.660 +and it'd come up with the name, + +00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:10.620 +and I'd just read it off. + +00:05:14.440 --> 00:05:14.940 +But it was still me generating it. + +00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:17.540 +So it wasn't something that people would see + +00:05:19.540 --> 00:05:19.640 +necessarily, but I would keep notes in it and + +00:05:20.520 --> 00:05:21.020 +then publish those notes. + +00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:24.620 +But yes, I don't know. + +00:05:25.440 --> 00:05:25.940 +This sounds all kind of, + +00:05:27.260 --> 00:05:27.760 +this sounds all intriguing. + +00:05:28.840 --> 00:05:29.340 +I think this would be fun. + +00:05:32.220 --> 00:05:32.720 +I think I need to get a group of like-minded + +00:05:35.880 --> 00:05:36.380 +Emacs people who want to play online. + +00:05:39.860 --> 00:05:40.120 +[Speaker 0]: I'm sure you've got plenty of people not only + +00:05:41.580 --> 00:05:42.080 +watching but also here in BBB. + +00:05:44.660 --> 00:05:44.800 +So we only have about 14 minutes until we go + +00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:46.360 +to the next talk and it might be a little + +00:05:48.200 --> 00:05:48.700 +short for a campaign, but we might just... + +00:05:53.220 --> 00:05:53.720 +Moving on to the next question, + +00:05:56.480 --> 00:05:56.920 +how does 1 become super awesome like Howard + +00:05:58.200 --> 00:05:58.620 +Abrams? And I very much agree. + +00:05:58.700 --> 00:05:59.140 +[Speaker 1]: Sure, yes. That's kind, + +00:06:04.460 --> 00:06:04.600 +[Speaker 0]: That's not a secret, You're not giving your + +00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:09.800 +[Speaker 1]: too kind, too kind. There's no trade secrets. + +00:06:10.580 --> 00:06:11.080 +Just follow your passions. + +00:06:14.540 --> 00:06:15.040 +[Speaker 0]: trade secrets. I can only conquer. + +00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:16.660 +All right, moving on to the next question. + +00:06:18.740 --> 00:06:19.200 +Please talk a little about how you produced + +00:06:20.460 --> 00:06:20.960 +such a slick presentation video. + +00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:23.300 +Everything looked completely professional, + +00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:25.620 +and I'd agree. So tell us more. + +00:06:29.260 --> 00:06:29.760 +[Speaker 1]: OK, so as you've seen my previous + +00:06:32.680 --> 00:06:33.180 +presentations, It's all just Emacs screen. + +00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:36.060 +I just felt like, oh, what I really want to + +00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:39.560 +talk about is how much fun I'm having and the + +00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:43.840 +little introduction. So my son actually is a + +00:06:44.980 --> 00:06:45.240 +YouTuber. So I asked him, + +00:06:47.200 --> 00:06:47.360 +and it's like, oh, I'll take care of your + +00:06:49.940 --> 00:06:50.440 +dad. And so he's the 1 that kind of prompted + +00:06:51.280 --> 00:06:51.780 +me. So I had a director. + +00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:54.220 +Don't know if that translates, + +00:06:58.940 --> 00:06:59.340 +[Speaker 0]: I mean, that translates amazingly. + +00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:03.060 +[Speaker 1]: though, but. Very good. + +00:07:06.900 --> 00:07:07.400 +You know, very over the top. + +00:07:09.440 --> 00:07:09.940 +I've never done something like this before. + +00:07:10.460 --> 00:07:10.600 +[Speaker 0]: I mean, the results at the end is No, + +00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:12.040 +but it fits you so well. + +00:07:14.820 --> 00:07:14.980 +I think this over the top-ness combined with + +00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:16.300 +the editing, it just... + +00:07:18.900 --> 00:07:19.200 +[Speaker 1]: I might have to keep doing it because it was + +00:07:20.600 --> 00:07:21.100 +fun. It was fun to do. + +00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:23.300 +[Speaker 0]: You've set a standard that you'll need to + +00:07:24.520 --> 00:07:24.860 +meet for following Emax. + +00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:28.860 +[Speaker 1]: I'll have to keep paying them then. + +00:07:30.820 --> 00:07:31.320 +[Speaker 0]: Oh no! Alright, Yes! Alright, + +00:07:32.360 --> 00:07:32.860 +moving on to the next question. + +00:07:35.380 --> 00:07:35.540 +Does table data, no sorry that's the 1 we did + +00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:37.680 +on recursion and we're not going to struggle + +00:07:38.900 --> 00:07:39.400 +through the reading of it again. + +00:07:41.280 --> 00:07:41.780 +Alright so with your toolkits, + +00:07:43.940 --> 00:07:44.060 +a list of good books would be nice to be + +00:07:45.300 --> 00:07:45.800 +included, example D&D, + +00:07:48.400 --> 00:07:48.900 +space, steampunk, cyberpunk settings. + +00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:50.300 +Do you have such a plan? + +00:07:56.120 --> 00:07:56.360 +[Speaker 1]: 00I mean, I could definitely publish a + +00:07:59.640 --> 00:08:00.140 +bibliography of things I'm using and reading, + +00:08:03.640 --> 00:08:04.140 +But I don't know if I'd be writing anything. + +00:08:07.420 --> 00:08:07.640 +[Speaker 0]: Oh come on, don't tell yourself short. + +00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:09.140 +You've already proven you were amazing in + +00:08:10.640 --> 00:08:11.140 +very different, very varied topics. + +00:08:12.840 --> 00:08:13.340 +I'm sure you should give it 1 more try. + +00:08:15.460 --> 00:08:15.740 +[Speaker 1]: I don't know. I've got a sabbatical coming + +00:08:17.580 --> 00:08:17.840 +up. I'm toying with writing something, + +00:08:19.860 --> 00:08:20.360 +but I don't know if it'd ever leave the Emacs + +00:08:20.440 --> 00:08:20.940 +buffer. + +00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:24.180 +[Speaker 0]: All right, I like this. + +00:08:28.140 --> 00:08:28.260 +Next question. Hi Howard and thanks for an + +00:08:28.860 --> 00:08:29.360 +outstanding presentation. + +00:08:31.640 --> 00:08:31.800 +What did you use to create the graphics in + +00:08:34.280 --> 00:08:34.440 +your presentation? Didn't we cover this 1 + +00:08:35.059 --> 00:08:35.380 +already? I can't remember. + +00:08:35.740 --> 00:08:35.860 +No, that was + +00:08:41.980 --> 00:08:42.240 +[Speaker 1]: a good 1. So the graphics actually were just + +00:08:43.179 --> 00:08:43.679 +kind of hacked together. + +00:08:45.020 --> 00:08:45.340 +But then I just gave them to my son. + +00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:47.520 +And it's like, can you put the graphic right + +00:08:50.140 --> 00:08:50.640 +here and he goes no problem there it is like + +00:08:56.280 --> 00:08:56.640 +[Speaker 0]: okay great so 1 more 1 more reason to keep + +00:08:57.060 --> 00:08:57.560 +paying your son + +00:08:59.820 --> 00:09:00.180 +[Speaker 1]: perfect yeah yeah exactly so if you can get + +00:09:02.760 --> 00:09:03.260 +get yourself a YouTuber who knows how to use + +00:09:05.800 --> 00:09:06.300 +all the tools. I think he was using DaVinci, + +00:09:08.860 --> 00:09:09.360 +but he's got quite a few going. + +00:09:12.700 --> 00:09:12.900 +[Speaker 0]: Right. Alright, moving on to the next + +00:09:15.040 --> 00:09:15.220 +question. Any plans to borrow tables from + +00:09:17.980 --> 00:09:18.240 +Dungeon World or Iron Sword Starforge and + +00:09:20.460 --> 00:09:20.960 +publish in a TK repository? + +00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:22.860 +Not sure what TK is. + +00:09:25.380 --> 00:09:25.880 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, yeah, okay. So yeah, + +00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:30.820 +so that would be fun and I'd love that. + +00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:34.340 +And I was just reading a way to render PDFs + +00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:38.480 +that you might own into Markdown format. + +00:09:39.140 --> 00:09:39.560 +And if it's in Markdown, + +00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:41.940 +it'd be easy to pull into Org Mode. + +00:09:43.680 --> 00:09:44.180 +So all of the Iron Sworn, + +00:09:45.280 --> 00:09:45.780 +that role-playing game, + +00:09:48.780 --> 00:09:49.280 +Since it's all under the Creative License, + +00:09:51.380 --> 00:09:51.600 +I think even the Star Forge is. + +00:09:53.940 --> 00:09:54.280 +So I think I could grab the Star Forge 1. + +00:09:56.820 --> 00:09:57.100 +I don't know about Dungeon World and their + +00:09:59.220 --> 00:09:59.380 +tables. But yeah, a lot of people are + +00:10:01.060 --> 00:10:01.500 +starting to publish those kind of tables. + +00:10:03.760 --> 00:10:04.180 +So yeah, that'd be fun. + +00:10:07.160 --> 00:10:07.400 +I'd like to render all those in text files + +00:10:08.560 --> 00:10:09.060 +that I could pull up like that. + +00:10:13.180 --> 00:10:13.580 +[Speaker 0]: Lovely. I think that's all for the questions + +00:10:15.820 --> 00:10:16.320 +we had in the pad. We still have 9 minutes. + +00:10:18.280 --> 00:10:18.760 +I see plenty of people have joined us, + +00:10:21.060 --> 00:10:21.560 +including 1 person with a microphone on BBB. + +00:10:23.160 --> 00:10:23.500 +PlasmaStrike, do you have a question? + +00:10:24.920 --> 00:10:25.180 +And would you like to unmute yourself and ask + +00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:28.940 +it? I'm also going to check the chat. + +00:10:31.640 --> 00:10:31.920 +[Speaker 1]: Oh, yeah. StarsWithoutNumber is another great + +00:10:33.640 --> 00:10:34.140 +1 that's got some great tables in it. + +00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:37.960 +Sorry, I'm just looking at the questions that + +00:10:38.940 --> 00:10:39.440 +are popping up here, too. + +00:10:42.740 --> 00:10:43.180 +[Speaker 0]: Sure. So I don't see anyone unmuting + +00:10:44.540 --> 00:10:44.800 +themselves. I see people typing away + +00:10:45.220 --> 00:10:45.400 +questions. By the way, + +00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:46.560 +if you're going to type questions, + +00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:48.680 +perhaps do not put them on BBB, + +00:10:50.460 --> 00:10:50.600 +put them in the pad. It's a little easier for + +00:10:52.380 --> 00:10:52.880 +us to archive them afterwards. + +00:10:56.160 --> 00:10:56.580 +I'm going to give a little bit of time. + +00:10:58.360 --> 00:10:58.860 +I feel bad about going on break when I have + +00:11:00.940 --> 00:11:01.160 +you available and ready to answer more + +00:11:02.680 --> 00:11:03.180 +questions. Oh, you're too kind. + +00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:07.860 +[Speaker 2]: How have you, as this changed, + +00:11:09.520 --> 00:11:09.960 +how's your visualization of the books, + +00:11:11.260 --> 00:11:11.760 +or of your games at all? + +00:11:15.180 --> 00:11:15.680 +[Speaker 1]: Sorry, can you ask that 1 more time? + +00:11:16.700 --> 00:11:17.200 +I didn't catch the first part. + +00:11:20.140 --> 00:11:20.600 +[Speaker 2]: How has this impacted, + +00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:23.300 +like, your imagination on the scenes and + +00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:28.360 +stuff like that because it's partly open and + +00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:30.920 +closed because you had that chart where you + +00:11:32.880 --> 00:11:33.380 +had that where you put it in the center of + +00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:37.400 +constrained by algorithms to enhance your + +00:11:39.780 --> 00:11:40.020 +creativity, you write it but it's not all + +00:11:42.700 --> 00:11:42.900 +freeform to where you have writer's block as + +00:11:42.900 --> 00:11:43.400 +much. + +00:11:46.800 --> 00:11:47.080 +[Speaker 1]: You hit the, You hit it on the head. + +00:11:49.640 --> 00:11:50.040 +That's exactly it. That's why I've been doing + +00:11:53.940 --> 00:11:54.440 +this. Creativity is a hard thing to foster. + +00:11:57.520 --> 00:11:57.700 +And having little prompts that you have to + +00:11:58.340 --> 00:11:58.840 +kind of work together, + +00:12:03.660 --> 00:12:04.160 +like twisty language, what does that mean? + +00:12:06.560 --> 00:12:06.900 +Oh, you have to kind of work with that. + +00:12:08.800 --> 00:12:09.160 +So yeah, that's 1 of the reasons why I got + +00:12:11.800 --> 00:12:12.300 +into doing the solo version of it, + +00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:14.600 +just because you kind of, + +00:12:15.980 --> 00:12:16.480 +it does really foster the creativity. + +00:12:23.540 --> 00:12:24.040 +Did that answer the question? + +00:12:28.520 --> 00:12:28.780 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah well has it kind of has it improved over + +00:12:30.060 --> 00:12:30.280 +time though of using it like + +00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:33.700 +[Speaker 1]: oh yeah oh yeah I would definitely say so + +00:12:36.420 --> 00:12:36.920 +While I'm still not ready to publish my files + +00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:40.740 +at all, but the first ones were much worse. + +00:12:46.160 --> 00:12:46.320 +[Speaker 2]: That was an example like after you play for + +00:12:47.800 --> 00:12:48.080 +like 2 months or something like that, + +00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:50.440 +like, could you close your eyes and see the + +00:12:51.420 --> 00:12:51.920 +rooms a lot better versus... + +00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:55.220 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I think so. I think so. + +00:13:02.150 --> 00:13:02.500 +And, you know, there's 1 solo game called A + +00:13:03.340 --> 00:13:03.840 +Thousand-Year-Old Vampire. + +00:13:05.740 --> 00:13:06.100 +I don't know if you've seen that 1 or not, + +00:13:08.440 --> 00:13:08.940 +but it's quite creative. + +00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:10.220 +It's very interesting. + +00:13:13.180 --> 00:13:13.680 +It's got a great setup to use. + +00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:17.320 +And When I was looking through it, + +00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:19.820 +it's like, I'm thinking of a typical vampire + +00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:21.220 +and this sort of thing. + +00:13:25.760 --> 00:13:26.040 +But then there's this YouTuber named Seth + +00:13:27.880 --> 00:13:28.180 +Skalkarski, if I can pronounce his name + +00:13:30.020 --> 00:13:30.060 +right. He was describing it. + +00:13:32.040 --> 00:13:32.540 +And he came up with a completely different + +00:13:34.540 --> 00:13:34.940 +vampire scene. And it's like, + +00:13:37.560 --> 00:13:37.880 +oh, I could see how people can kind of start + +00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:41.000 +working on these things and really see things + +00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:43.260 +differently. And the creativity and all that + +00:13:44.340 --> 00:13:44.840 +sort of stuff just really blossoms. + +00:13:48.040 --> 00:13:48.540 +[Speaker 2]: And then I guess as an extension of that, + +00:13:53.680 --> 00:13:53.920 +how has the stories changed after using this + +00:13:58.140 --> 00:13:58.640 +toolkit or the solo games for 2 months? + +00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:00.700 +Like the scenes, like how you, + +00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:02.940 +like the stories that you'd start generating? + +00:14:05.980 --> 00:14:06.460 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, + +00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:09.200 +I mean, a lot depends on just how much you're + +00:14:10.140 --> 00:14:10.440 +willing to put into it. + +00:14:13.980 --> 00:14:14.340 +But yeah, I've definitely had a lot of fun. + +00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:16.760 +And it's just been a lot more enjoyable and + +00:14:17.680 --> 00:14:18.180 +just more interesting. + +00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:22.120 +[Speaker 2]: Well I mean like has the types and quality of + +00:14:23.940 --> 00:14:24.440 +the stories changed a lot? + +00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:25.740 +Or more than that? + +00:14:30.280 --> 00:14:30.620 +[Speaker 1]: I think so, you know, but obviously the proof + +00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:34.500 +is if somebody else is doing the evaluation + +00:14:39.060 --> 00:14:39.280 +and I'm not letting that out But I think so, + +00:14:42.040 --> 00:14:42.500 +but I think so so but I think your mileage + +00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:44.840 +may vary. So yeah, try it out + +00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:47.860 +[Speaker 2]: Have you seen the game Dwarf Fortress? + +00:14:50.880 --> 00:14:51.140 +Because it's supposed to be a video game + +00:14:53.040 --> 00:14:53.260 +that's in a similar spirit to that, + +00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:55.580 +where it helps you generate stories. + +00:14:56.820 --> 00:14:57.320 +Dwarf Fortress, RimWorld, + +00:15:00.420 --> 00:15:00.920 +Kenshi is another 1. + +00:15:03.400 --> 00:15:03.720 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, no, I've looked at the Dwarf Fortress, + +00:15:04.640 --> 00:15:04.900 +but I haven't played it. + +00:15:08.160 --> 00:15:08.480 +But that 1 seems a little bit more + +00:15:10.640 --> 00:15:10.920 +structured, but still could be a lot of fun + +00:15:13.700 --> 00:15:13.860 +too. And then others, it's like, + +00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:15.260 +how far do you want to take it? + +00:15:18.280 --> 00:15:18.780 +Like I just picked up this 1 called Broken + +00:15:21.820 --> 00:15:21.980 +Cask. There it is, where you generate a + +00:15:25.240 --> 00:15:25.640 +little bar tavern, and then you start rolling + +00:15:29.180 --> 00:15:29.540 +events. Now, it gives a lot more stuff coming + +00:15:30.780 --> 00:15:31.060 +out of it. It's like, oh, + +00:15:32.700 --> 00:15:32.980 +this person's showing up and this is what's + +00:15:34.700 --> 00:15:34.840 +happening, but you can elaborate on it as + +00:15:36.660 --> 00:15:36.880 +much as you want. And that's what I'm + +00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:39.840 +thinking I might do. Hi, + +00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:41.100 +Mike, you got a question? + +00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:48.180 +[Speaker 3]: Hi, Howard. Yeah, I do have a question. + +00:15:50.940 --> 00:15:51.440 +I'm a big fan of your work on literate DevOps + +00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:53.620 +and your essay and video on that topic. + +00:15:56.040 --> 00:15:56.260 +I'm just wondering if you still use that + +00:15:59.640 --> 00:15:59.820 +workflow at work and have you changed how + +00:16:02.160 --> 00:16:02.420 +that process works or has it evolved over + +00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:05.220 +time since that video and essay were written? + +00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:07.340 +[Speaker 1]: That's a good question. + +00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:12.600 +Yes, I still do it. It varies depending on + +00:16:13.500 --> 00:16:14.000 +the project and whatnot. + +00:16:16.400 --> 00:16:16.900 +But I still am using it. + +00:16:20.280 --> 00:16:20.520 +Yeah, yeah. In fact, I'm doing it with a lot + +00:16:22.760 --> 00:16:23.260 +of other things. Like all my configuration + +00:16:27.660 --> 00:16:28.160 +files are all in a literate style for Emacs. + +00:16:31.160 --> 00:16:31.660 +And even all the code that's in Ironsworn, + +00:16:35.060 --> 00:16:35.560 +the repo, if you go to the repo, + +00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:37.640 +it's the readme file. And yeah, + +00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:40.140 +that's just being rendered out to the Emacs + +00:16:41.660 --> 00:16:42.160 +file. So it is still all literate. + +00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:43.940 +[Speaker 3]: Very cool. + +00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:46.780 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, because I don't know. + +00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:48.620 +Some things are just a little too complicated + +00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:49.820 +to just type up. + +00:16:56.040 --> 00:16:56.200 +[Speaker 0]: All right, sorry to be the bearer of bad + +00:16:58.220 --> 00:16:58.720 +news, but we have only about 3 more minutes + +00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:00.060 +of lifetime. By the way, + +00:17:02.920 --> 00:17:03.120 +feel free to stay and discuss any of the + +00:17:07.540 --> 00:17:08.040 +topic of today's session after we go off air + +00:17:10.579 --> 00:17:10.859 +and we'll be able to keep all of the nice + +00:17:12.260 --> 00:17:12.540 +discussion and put them on the talks page + +00:17:16.560 --> 00:17:17.060 +afterwards. Great. Howard, + +00:17:20.020 --> 00:17:20.280 +I would like to ask you if you have any last + +00:17:21.760 --> 00:17:21.900 +words regarding the presentation or the + +00:17:23.040 --> 00:17:23.540 +questions you've had. Well, + +00:17:24.520 --> 00:17:25.020 +the last question we had, + +00:17:27.500 --> 00:17:27.720 +actually, we had Mike come and ask it live. + +00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:29.720 +But do you have any parting words before we + +00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:32.220 +leave you? Okay. + +00:17:37.560 --> 00:17:38.000 +[Speaker 1]: I think the last thing is go and hack + +00:17:41.420 --> 00:17:41.720 +something. I mean, this Lisp stuff is a lot + +00:17:43.860 --> 00:17:44.360 +of fun. And I hope that came across. + +00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:47.420 +It's like, the project I made is just a + +00:17:50.220 --> 00:17:50.720 +personal thing and it was fun for me to make, + +00:17:53.100 --> 00:17:53.400 +but everybody's probably got some fun thing + +00:17:54.320 --> 00:17:54.820 +they could make as well. + +00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:56.700 +And just, I don't know, + +00:17:58.460 --> 00:17:58.960 +hack it yourself because all the, + +00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:02.420 +you know, think about adding multi-threading + +00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:04.740 +to Emacs. Maybe we don't want that, + +00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:06.360 +because that'll just complicate things. + +00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:08.700 +This is your own personal hacking sandbox, + +00:18:09.520 --> 00:18:10.020 +so go have fun. + +00:18:14.220 --> 00:18:14.380 +[Speaker 0]: Great. I was just going to say we were + +00:18:15.060 --> 00:18:15.560 +talking about Dwarf Fortress. + +00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:19.180 +In Dwarf Fortress, it's a very CPU intensive + +00:18:21.020 --> 00:18:21.240 +game because it needs to compute every single + +00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:23.860 +thing in the world and there's such a thing + +00:18:27.700 --> 00:18:27.780 +as the CPU death of the world where basically + +00:18:29.340 --> 00:18:29.500 +you've got too many cats that are just + +00:18:31.320 --> 00:18:31.440 +breeding constantly with 1 another and it + +00:18:33.760 --> 00:18:34.000 +creates so many entities that it just + +00:18:36.760 --> 00:18:36.940 +crashes, and the time it takes for the day to + +00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:38.940 +finish it, it just never finish. + +00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:41.180 +So I was going to say maybe multi-threading + +00:18:43.180 --> 00:18:43.660 +might be useful in this case for Emacs. + +00:18:46.100 --> 00:18:46.600 +So, wanting to foray into the future. + +00:18:48.800 --> 00:18:49.300 +[Speaker 1]: All right. Thank you. + +00:18:50.900 --> 00:18:51.180 +[Speaker 0]: And thank you so much, + +00:18:52.360 --> 00:18:52.540 +Howard, and thank you Plasma Strike for your + +00:18:53.320 --> 00:18:53.560 +question, as well as Mike, + +00:18:55.760 --> 00:18:55.900 +who joined us. We're going to go live with + +00:18:57.440 --> 00:18:57.940 +the next talk in about 1 minute, + +00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:00.580 +and until then, well, I'm not going to put + +00:19:02.040 --> 00:19:02.400 +music, You can wait 50 seconds without music, + +00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:04.460 +you Zoomers. We'll be back in a bit. + +00:19:05.280 --> 00:19:05.780 +[Speaker 2]: Bye-bye. + +00:19:09.620 --> 00:19:09.860 +[Speaker 0]: Bye, Howard. All right, + +00:19:11.120 --> 00:19:11.280 +we are off. Thank you so much, + +00:19:11.980 --> 00:19:12.480 +Howard. I need to dash. + +00:19:13.940 --> 00:19:14.440 +And oh, I think he's already gone. + +00:19:16.360 --> 00:19:16.860 +So Bye everyone, I'll see you later. diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-teaching--teaching-computer-and-data-science-with-literate-programming-tools--marcus-birkenkrahe--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-teaching--teaching-computer-and-data-science-with-literate-programming-tools--marcus-birkenkrahe--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..494ee690 --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-teaching--teaching-computer-and-data-science-with-literate-programming-tools--marcus-birkenkrahe--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,2650 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:03.639 --> 00:00:04.140 +[Speaker 0]: Again, second only live Q&A of the day. + +00:00:05.980 --> 00:00:06.339 +So, things are still a bit rusty, + +00:00:07.859 --> 00:00:08.360 +but believe me, by the end of the morning, + +00:00:11.719 --> 00:00:12.219 +we will be well-oiled machinery. + +00:00:13.440 --> 00:00:13.940 +So, hi Marcus, how are you doing? + +00:00:15.360 --> 00:00:15.860 +[Speaker 1]: I'm fine, Thank you. + +00:00:19.900 --> 00:00:20.020 +[Speaker 0]: I really liked, most people might have + +00:00:21.680 --> 00:00:22.180 +forgotten, but you started your presentation + +00:00:25.840 --> 00:00:26.340 +with the, in a very dark room and with this + +00:00:29.200 --> 00:00:29.340 +typical note of dry German humor that I + +00:00:30.400 --> 00:00:30.900 +particularly liked. + +00:00:33.900 --> 00:00:34.280 +[Speaker 1]: Whereas I told you we're born without humour + +00:00:38.040 --> 00:00:38.300 +so any sense of humour is the result of very + +00:00:38.559 --> 00:00:39.059 +hard work. + +00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:44.280 +[Speaker 0]: Well I can confirm therefore that your work + +00:00:46.100 --> 00:00:46.600 +is evident in this particular remark. + +00:00:50.379 --> 00:00:50.879 +So as we did before and perhaps this time + +00:00:53.940 --> 00:00:54.320 +more punctiliously, terrible adverb, + +00:00:57.660 --> 00:00:58.100 +that's why I'm an English major we will be + +00:01:00.220 --> 00:01:00.420 +taking questions first from the pad and then + +00:01:03.420 --> 00:01:03.740 +we'll be moving on to people in the BBV room. + +00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:05.540 +Let me just check if we have some people. + +00:01:06.220 --> 00:01:06.720 +We do have some people. + +00:01:08.720 --> 00:01:08.860 +All right, so Markus, I'm gonna ask you the + +00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:11.200 +questions in the pad unless you have + +00:01:12.100 --> 00:01:12.600 +something to remark first. + +00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:15.060 +[Speaker 1]: Yes, oh no, no, I don't have nothing to + +00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:17.800 +remark. I mean, only that we're coming to the + +00:01:19.940 --> 00:01:20.200 +end of the term here, and I think in the + +00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:24.140 +paper that I wrote, I expressed doubt that + +00:01:25.080 --> 00:01:25.560 +Emacs was good for beginners, + +00:01:31.220 --> 00:01:31.720 +but I've now gone back to an interactive + +00:01:33.520 --> 00:01:34.020 +notebook in the class without Emacs, + +00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:37.500 +and I've just missed it terribly the whole + +00:01:38.940 --> 00:01:39.220 +term. And I think I saw you walk too, + +00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:40.540 +so that's kind of interesting. + +00:01:41.660 --> 00:01:42.160 +That's it. + +00:01:43.320 --> 00:01:43.580 +[Speaker 0]: Right. All right, well, + +00:01:44.860 --> 00:01:45.040 +let's get started with the questions because + +00:01:47.440 --> 00:01:47.940 +I'm a little worried that we might acquire + +00:01:50.140 --> 00:01:50.580 +debt because of the time that we have. + +00:01:52.900 --> 00:01:53.040 +And just to be clear, so that you also know + +00:01:54.360 --> 00:01:54.479 +the time at which we're supposed to be + +00:01:56.979 --> 00:01:57.240 +finishing, the next talk here on this track + +00:01:59.060 --> 00:01:59.560 +is supposed to be at 10.40, + +00:02:01.240 --> 00:02:01.740 +which is in 13 minutes from now. + +00:02:02.720 --> 00:02:03.220 +All right, with that said, + +00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:04.500 +starting with the first questions. + +00:02:06.820 --> 00:02:07.300 +What tools do you use for making your slides? + +00:02:08.940 --> 00:02:09.440 +They are very nice and I concur. + +00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:18.180 +OrgReveal? + +00:02:22.100 --> 00:02:22.600 +[Speaker 1]: I use OrgReveal. It's a package, + +00:02:26.100 --> 00:02:26.380 +OrgReveal. I don't have the link right now, + +00:02:31.160 --> 00:02:31.560 +but it's an org mode package where You create + +00:02:35.220 --> 00:02:35.400 +some meta information and I think it's + +00:02:39.660 --> 00:02:39.900 +basically JavaScript, JavaScript package that + +00:02:41.120 --> 00:02:41.620 +will work from a bunch of different + +00:02:49.300 --> 00:02:49.540 +platforms, but it works particularly well + +00:02:51.620 --> 00:02:52.120 +from Emacs. So you use that a lot. + +00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:55.440 +[Speaker 0]: Right, yeah, I think it is definitely + +00:02:56.720 --> 00:02:57.120 +interacting with JavaScript in the background + +00:02:58.620 --> 00:02:59.120 +and it makes for a very clean presentation + +00:03:01.240 --> 00:03:01.380 +right from Emacs. I mean, + +00:03:04.180 --> 00:03:04.340 +it's not opened in Emacs unless you use a web + +00:03:06.180 --> 00:03:06.480 +browser in Emacs that supports such + +00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:09.400 +compositing but it's pretty convenient and I + +00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:10.780 +recommend looking into it. + +00:03:19.040 --> 00:03:19.540 +[Speaker 1]: I'm just going to share the URL here. + +00:03:20.900 --> 00:03:21.400 +So if anybody's interested. + +00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:24.140 +[Speaker 0]: Right, and we'll be putting all the links + +00:03:25.440 --> 00:03:25.600 +right now. So obviously right now, + +00:03:27.740 --> 00:03:28.180 +Marcus is writing inside of his own Emacs, + +00:03:28.940 --> 00:03:29.340 +but we also have the pad. + +00:03:30.760 --> 00:03:31.020 +We'll make sure that you have all the links + +00:03:32.020 --> 00:03:32.520 +accessible a little bit later. + +00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:34.340 +Okay, moving on to the next question, + +00:03:34.860 --> 00:03:35.360 +why MDPI? + +00:03:40.140 --> 00:03:40.520 +[Speaker 1]: Oh yeah, well that's a little bit of a longer + +00:03:42.100 --> 00:03:42.600 +answer, kind of boring I suppose. + +00:03:44.180 --> 00:03:44.680 +So when I came here to the US, + +00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:47.960 +I used to teach a lot of graduate courses and + +00:03:49.160 --> 00:03:49.280 +I had to suddenly teach a lot of + +00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:50.460 +undergraduate courses, + +00:03:52.940 --> 00:03:53.100 +which partly motivated this move because it + +00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:55.640 +made me realize, as I said in the + +00:03:57.660 --> 00:03:58.020 +presentation, how little the students + +00:03:59.280 --> 00:03:59.780 +understand of the underlying infrastructure + +00:04:01.760 --> 00:04:01.920 +and how important it is for them to work with + +00:04:05.940 --> 00:04:06.440 +an IDE that doesn't make coding especially + +00:04:09.020 --> 00:04:09.140 +convenient, but that teaches them a lot of + +00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:10.840 +the stuff on the side, + +00:04:12.580 --> 00:04:13.080 +you know, while still presenting a very + +00:04:16.880 --> 00:04:17.380 +smooth environment, which developers + +00:04:21.899 --> 00:04:22.120 +appreciate as well. So I came here and I used + +00:04:24.320 --> 00:04:24.520 +to publish like 4 or 5 research papers per + +00:04:25.640 --> 00:04:26.140 +year, but I didn't have the time. + +00:04:28.260 --> 00:04:28.760 +So I was contacted by MDPI. + +00:04:33.840 --> 00:04:34.340 +And it's 1 of those research paper mills, + +00:04:36.660 --> 00:04:37.160 +which seem to be springing up where authors + +00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:40.840 +can, really the institutions of the authors + +00:04:42.100 --> 00:04:42.560 +have to pay so that they can publish, + +00:04:43.940 --> 00:04:44.440 +right? So it's not really, + +00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:46.400 +and I checked them out and they seem to be + +00:04:47.260 --> 00:04:47.680 +proper peer review publishing, + +00:04:48.900 --> 00:04:49.120 +but to be absolutely sure I said, + +00:04:49.960 --> 00:04:50.460 +well, you can have my article, + +00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:52.540 +but of course for free, + +00:04:54.640 --> 00:04:55.080 +I'm not going to pay for you to publish it. + +00:04:57.200 --> 00:04:57.700 +And so that's what they did. + +00:05:01.060 --> 00:05:01.160 +They invited me and I submitted the paper and + +00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:02.240 +it was a very good process. + +00:05:04.280 --> 00:05:04.540 +That was a very, it was a good peer review + +00:05:06.400 --> 00:05:06.760 +critique. So I changed the paper quite a bit. + +00:05:07.640 --> 00:05:07.940 +It's still not a great paper. + +00:05:09.060 --> 00:05:09.320 +It's just a small case study. + +00:05:11.880 --> 00:05:12.100 +That's the kind of thing that you have a lot + +00:05:14.580 --> 00:05:14.800 +in medical research where also people don't + +00:05:17.280 --> 00:05:17.720 +have a lot of time to do research, + +00:05:19.280 --> 00:05:19.480 +proper research, which takes a very long + +00:05:21.020 --> 00:05:21.520 +time. And so that's why MDPI. + +00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:24.660 +And they are in the most of the relevant + +00:05:27.280 --> 00:05:27.780 +citation indices. So they are reputable + +00:05:30.700 --> 00:05:30.920 +enough. I mean, normally I would say for + +00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:33.060 +anybody who does anything like this, + +00:05:36.200 --> 00:05:36.420 +you might not even want to bother with the + +00:05:37.260 --> 00:05:37.640 +journal these days anymore. + +00:05:38.760 --> 00:05:39.260 +You just go straight to ArcSci, + +00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:41.620 +put out your preprint. + +00:05:44.380 --> 00:05:44.540 +And in fact, what will happen if you're on + +00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:46.440 +ArcSci, if somebody finds it interesting, + +00:05:49.400 --> 00:05:49.900 +they're going to reach out to you to capture + +00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:54.280 +your paper and have it published under their + +00:05:55.800 --> 00:05:56.120 +heading. Oh yeah, actually the other reason + +00:05:58.260 --> 00:05:58.660 +why I wanted MDPI is because there were open + +00:05:59.480 --> 00:05:59.980 +access from the start. + +00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:02.660 +And I really like, if you go to the paper, + +00:06:03.820 --> 00:06:04.200 +I really like the way it's presented. + +00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:07.340 +So I looked at a few papers and I thought + +00:06:11.640 --> 00:06:12.140 +it's a really nice online access, + +00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:13.980 +online open access solution. + +00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:17.220 +That's the long answer, + +00:06:17.220 --> 00:06:17.720 +sorry. + +00:06:20.660 --> 00:06:21.060 +[Speaker 0]: No, that was perfectly fine and you provided + +00:06:23.400 --> 00:06:23.760 +many details so it was far from a boring + +00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:25.420 +answer, let me reassure you. + +00:06:26.820 --> 00:06:27.100 +Moving on to the question, + +00:06:28.900 --> 00:06:29.120 +we only have about 8 minutes left so I'd like + +00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:31.500 +to finish those 2 questions and let people in + +00:06:33.960 --> 00:06:34.460 +the audience speak. So do you think immersion + +00:06:37.060 --> 00:06:37.500 +can be achieved on teaching other students + +00:06:38.100 --> 00:06:38.600 +with different backgrounds? + +00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:42.180 +[Speaker 1]: Oh yeah, that's a really good question. + +00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:48.380 +I had actually a discussion last night with + +00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:49.920 +my wife in bed about this, + +00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:52.860 +about the use of textbooks which are famously + +00:06:55.560 --> 00:06:55.840 +non-immersive because they're consumed away + +00:06:58.140 --> 00:06:58.640 +from the class. Very rarely you sit in class + +00:07:00.100 --> 00:07:00.540 +like people used to do and read something + +00:07:01.960 --> 00:07:02.420 +together. Maybe they did that in English. + +00:07:04.200 --> 00:07:04.700 +And that is of course instantly immersive. + +00:07:06.300 --> 00:07:06.700 +But in computer science, + +00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:08.180 +many other topics, psychology, + +00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:10.300 +you know, biology and so on, + +00:07:11.820 --> 00:07:12.260 +you cannot get immersion, + +00:07:13.740 --> 00:07:14.240 +at least not in a lecture theater. + +00:07:16.760 --> 00:07:16.960 +You get it in a lab because people solve the + +00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:18.920 +problem and then they're immersed in it. + +00:07:20.500 --> 00:07:20.680 +So, but my answer would be, + +00:07:22.580 --> 00:07:22.680 +yes, I can think totally immersion can be + +00:07:25.260 --> 00:07:25.540 +achieved anywhere, but what you have to do is + +00:07:29.180 --> 00:07:29.500 +you have to not lecture and you have to let + +00:07:31.280 --> 00:07:31.640 +students do work as you go along. + +00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:33.840 +So I used to lecture quite a bit because I + +00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:38.220 +was an insecure young professor and just read + +00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:41.400 +all my slides and my notes as I used to use, + +00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:43.540 +as everybody uses to when they start. + +00:07:45.660 --> 00:07:46.100 +But as I went along, I realized, + +00:07:47.860 --> 00:07:48.240 +you know, I've got such a grasp of the topic + +00:07:50.660 --> 00:07:51.080 +that I really everything I do now is prepared + +00:07:53.220 --> 00:07:53.720 +in Emacs in an interactive way so I start + +00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:55.480 +saying a few words and then the students + +00:07:57.840 --> 00:07:58.000 +immediately we get to work and they seem to + +00:07:59.640 --> 00:07:59.840 +love that because in most of the other + +00:08:01.460 --> 00:08:01.680 +classes people just talk at them they take + +00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:03.500 +their stuff home and work at home, + +00:08:04.640 --> 00:08:05.140 +which is of course is super. + +00:08:06.220 --> 00:08:06.680 +But most of the students, + +00:08:08.320 --> 00:08:08.600 +if they have, in at least in a liberal arts + +00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:10.220 +college, they have 5 other classes, + +00:08:13.200 --> 00:08:13.520 +they do not take a lot of time to do the work + +00:08:16.389 --> 00:08:16.880 +at home. So it's, you know, + +00:08:18.420 --> 00:08:18.840 +yeah, It's kind of different. + +00:08:19.820 --> 00:08:20.020 +It's kind of risky, yeah, + +00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:22.360 +but the main point I was trying to make is + +00:08:26.320 --> 00:08:26.740 +Emacs and Org Mode really helped me to boil + +00:08:28.780 --> 00:08:29.220 +that interactive session down to something + +00:08:30.320 --> 00:08:30.800 +that will work in the classroom. + +00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:32.559 +I don't have to jump around between + +00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:33.740 +platforms. For example, + +00:08:35.659 --> 00:08:35.799 +this term, and I didn't use Emacs in the + +00:08:36.419 --> 00:08:36.919 +class with the students, + +00:08:39.740 --> 00:08:40.240 +I had to render using a package. + +00:08:42.169 --> 00:08:42.299 +It's actually a very nice package called, + +00:08:45.620 --> 00:08:46.100 +what's it called? Ox, what's it called? + +00:08:50.020 --> 00:08:50.520 +Ox, Ox IPNB. It's called Ox IPNB. + +00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:53.360 +So what it does is it renders in the usual + +00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:55.580 +way with Emacs, Org Mode does, + +00:08:58.580 --> 00:08:58.700 +renders interactive notebook files in + +00:09:00.560 --> 00:09:01.060 +Jupyter. And that took me a lot of time. + +00:09:03.700 --> 00:09:03.840 +And I immediately noticed as soon as the + +00:09:05.680 --> 00:09:06.180 +teacher has to fight platforms themselves, + +00:09:09.520 --> 00:09:09.920 +they take the ball off the immersion task, + +00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:12.340 +you know, to keep the student on the problem. + +00:09:18.060 --> 00:09:18.560 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah. Oh, go on, please. + +00:09:22.340 --> 00:09:22.840 +Yeah. I was going to remark that. + +00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:23.260 +[Speaker 1]: So yeah, absolutely. Yeah, + +00:09:24.760 --> 00:09:25.120 +I suppose it might be MIT style. + +00:09:25.760 --> 00:09:26.140 +Big difference though, + +00:09:27.620 --> 00:09:27.900 +my classes are very, very short, + +00:09:29.720 --> 00:09:30.060 +small. So I have like between 10 and 15 + +00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:32.180 +students per class. 1 of the reasons why I + +00:09:34.800 --> 00:09:35.080 +went to this college is because I was fed up + +00:09:36.740 --> 00:09:36.940 +teaching, trying to teach hundreds of + +00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:40.580 +students. Okay, sorry, + +00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:42.520 +do some of your students nag you about using + +00:09:43.260 --> 00:09:43.460 +VS Code? Yes, they do, + +00:09:44.800 --> 00:09:45.300 +but their arguments aren't very good. + +00:09:48.420 --> 00:09:48.740 +They hadn't really compared Emacs and VS + +00:09:51.300 --> 00:09:51.800 +Code. And what I do, actually I use RStudio + +00:09:53.560 --> 00:09:53.860 +as well, demonstrate VS Code, + +00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:01.060 +RStudio and Emacs. And I think it's very easy + +00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:02.840 +for them to see. And there are some videos + +00:10:04.900 --> 00:10:05.020 +about that as well, how much easier it is to + +00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:08.520 +get into Emacs to limit your investments to + +00:10:09.520 --> 00:10:09.820 +what you actually wanna do. + +00:10:11.680 --> 00:10:11.840 +When the problem with VS Code is it comes at + +00:10:13.780 --> 00:10:14.280 +you with this sort of Microsoft store + +00:10:16.780 --> 00:10:17.280 +ideology, like a gazillion plugins, + +00:10:18.340 --> 00:10:18.840 +which if you're a developer, + +00:10:19.640 --> 00:10:20.140 +you know what you want. + +00:10:23.620 --> 00:10:24.120 +And I mean, it's a bit like VS Code is like + +00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:27.940 +Google search for as if you were programming + +00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:30.820 +in Google search, a complete waste of time. + +00:10:32.920 --> 00:10:33.280 +Having said that, I've also seen some videos + +00:10:35.900 --> 00:10:36.180 +with people who really know how to use VS + +00:10:37.040 --> 00:10:37.420 +Code. And of course, you know, + +00:10:40.940 --> 00:10:41.180 +if somebody gets on the inside of a tool and + +00:10:44.340 --> 00:10:44.480 +spends upwards of a thousand hours in the + +00:10:45.340 --> 00:10:45.840 +tool, they'll be great. + +00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:47.580 +But that's not true for beginners. + +00:10:50.280 --> 00:10:50.780 +So hold on, there's another 1. + +00:10:51.820 --> 00:10:52.320 +I'm reading them, sorry. + +00:10:54.920 --> 00:10:55.420 +Leo, I can see the questions, + +00:10:57.500 --> 00:10:58.000 +but you may wanna turn them around. + +00:11:00.520 --> 00:11:00.720 +[Speaker 0]: No, No, no, please, please, + +00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:01.560 +you're free to read them. + +00:11:02.400 --> 00:11:02.900 +I'm on your fasted computer. + +00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:04.600 +[Speaker 1]: Some of you, too, that's the nagging. + +00:11:05.660 --> 00:11:06.100 +I teach simple programming at a vocational + +00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:07.700 +school, and even after showing the students + +00:11:09.060 --> 00:11:09.520 +Vim, Vim, of course, is a contender, + +00:11:10.760 --> 00:11:11.260 +and now I'm telling them I prefer Emacs. + +00:11:14.060 --> 00:11:14.260 +They still all choose VS Code as their + +00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:17.460 +editor. Well, okay, what I did is mandatory. + +00:11:18.640 --> 00:11:19.140 +I didn't let them choose. + +00:11:21.740 --> 00:11:21.980 +That's what I did. And I thought that was + +00:11:23.300 --> 00:11:23.800 +quite risky, but in the end, + +00:11:26.140 --> 00:11:26.400 +it turns out that the best students loved it + +00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:28.580 +and keep using Emacs in their jobs. + +00:11:32.140 --> 00:11:32.640 +I hear that now. The students in the middle + +00:11:35.640 --> 00:11:35.860 +were probably the ones who would pick VS Code + +00:11:37.900 --> 00:11:38.400 +because every tutorial they see, + +00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:40.440 +they learn a lot through YouTube and so + +00:11:41.760 --> 00:11:42.260 +everything they see is in VS Code. + +00:11:43.780 --> 00:11:44.180 +If there were more tutorials in Emacs, + +00:11:45.100 --> 00:11:45.600 +I'm trying to make some, + +00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:47.620 +then of course that would be different. + +00:11:53.720 --> 00:11:53.940 +But I think it's partly brainwashing and + +00:11:55.680 --> 00:11:55.840 +partly, of course, the other reason is there + +00:11:59.820 --> 00:12:00.320 +is no online Emacs. They use VS Code Dev, + +00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:02.460 +right? And that's, of course, + +00:12:04.640 --> 00:12:05.140 +they use an online cloud solution. + +00:12:06.820 --> 00:12:07.040 +Like most of the students in the high school, + +00:12:08.860 --> 00:12:09.360 +I teach Python in the high school right now, + +00:12:11.460 --> 00:12:11.600 +and the students only get Chromebooks that + +00:12:13.660 --> 00:12:14.160 +are completely cut down to nothing. + +00:12:16.920 --> 00:12:17.420 +They cannot have Linux on their Chromebooks. + +00:12:19.540 --> 00:12:19.900 +So what are they supposed to do? + +00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:21.580 +Their only choice really is Repl. + +00:12:24.060 --> 00:12:24.240 +Repl.com is a possibility for them to do + +00:12:27.040 --> 00:12:27.540 +that. But, you know, or they use code spaces, + +00:12:29.060 --> 00:12:29.560 +which is VS Code in GitHub. + +00:12:32.300 --> 00:12:32.660 +[Speaker 0]: Marcus, sorry for the interruption. + +00:12:33.820 --> 00:12:34.040 +We only have about 2 minutes left. + +00:12:35.140 --> 00:12:35.380 +So if you could take 1 question, + +00:12:36.260 --> 00:12:36.760 +that would be great. Sorry. + +00:12:37.800 --> 00:12:38.100 +[Speaker 1]: So. I'm observing the same behavior. + +00:12:39.620 --> 00:12:40.080 +Any more tutorials will be most welcome. + +00:12:43.260 --> 00:12:43.660 +Yes, I I'd love to. I spent the rest of my + +00:12:45.980 --> 00:12:46.100 +days on this earth making Emacs tutorials if + +00:12:49.016 --> 00:12:49.267 +[Speaker 0]: tutorials if I can. + +00:12:49.518 --> 00:12:49.769 +[Speaker 1]: I can. Thank you. DMAX Thank you. + +00:12:50.540 --> 00:12:51.040 +Approach to handling EDA. + +00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:52.700 +Oh yeah, with white data sets. + +00:12:58.440 --> 00:12:58.940 +Well, that's a good point. + +00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:03.260 +[Speaker 0]: So Markus, I don't want to put you under too + +00:13:06.180 --> 00:13:06.680 +[Speaker 1]: answer the question. The handling EDA, + +00:13:08.460 --> 00:13:08.760 +I don't know, if you look at the comments, + +00:13:09.560 --> 00:13:09.960 +I think these are on YouTube, + +00:13:10.840 --> 00:13:11.340 +right, at some point, Leo? + +00:13:12.380 --> 00:13:12.600 +[Speaker 0]: much pressure to Oh yes, + +00:13:13.580 --> 00:13:13.860 +they will definitely be on YouTube. + +00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:14.540 +answer the + +00:13:15.420 --> 00:13:15.580 +[Speaker 1]: I'm going to question you asked about the + +00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:17.560 +EDA, that's too long to go into right now, + +00:13:20.740 --> 00:13:21.100 +plus my cat is here. So I'm going to answer + +00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:22.620 +that in the comments, all right? + +00:13:23.660 --> 00:13:24.160 +Start up the conversation. + +00:13:27.400 --> 00:13:27.800 +Yes, I'm going to post that in the comments + +00:13:27.980 --> 00:13:28.480 +as well. + +00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:31.500 +[Speaker 0]: Sure, but Also, just to be clear, + +00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:32.640 +Marcus, you're going to continue the + +00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:35.440 +discussion. It's just a stream that will be + +00:13:36.880 --> 00:13:37.160 +moving on to the next talk in about 50 + +00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:39.380 +seconds. Marcus, feel free to keep answering + +00:13:40.360 --> 00:13:40.760 +questions inside this room. + +00:13:42.280 --> 00:13:42.780 +You also have people, we're going to check + +00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:44.540 +aside with the stream, + +00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:46.280 +we have a number of people in the room. + +00:13:47.800 --> 00:13:48.300 +You can see them on the left on the button + +00:13:50.860 --> 00:13:51.360 +who are probably going to unmute themselves + +00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:52.580 +and ask you questions. + +00:13:53.940 --> 00:13:54.440 +So feel free to stay in the room, + +00:13:56.680 --> 00:13:57.100 +answer as lengthy as you want the questions + +00:13:58.520 --> 00:13:58.700 +because that's more content for us and we + +00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:01.640 +love it obviously. But it's just that I + +00:14:03.640 --> 00:14:03.760 +personally will be leaving to take care of + +00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:04.860 +the rest of the talks. + +00:14:06.660 --> 00:14:06.880 +So, Markus, do you have any last words before + +00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:07.740 +we move on? + +00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:09.680 +[Speaker 1]: No, just thank you for this wonderful... + +00:14:10.580 --> 00:14:11.080 +I'm going to copy this. + +00:14:13.100 --> 00:14:13.280 +I don't think I listened to the talk by + +00:14:15.040 --> 00:14:15.200 +Sascha yet, but I'm going to do that because + +00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:18.080 +I really want to copy this conference format. + +00:14:19.740 --> 00:14:19.860 +I think that is the conference format of the + +00:14:21.420 --> 00:14:21.820 +future, using volunteers to put together + +00:14:22.860 --> 00:14:23.100 +conferences. So I can't wait. + +00:14:24.560 --> 00:14:24.720 +Nobody wants to come to Batesville where I + +00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:25.840 +am, but thank you so much. + +00:14:26.680 --> 00:14:27.180 +That was really super professional. + +00:14:27.540 --> 00:14:28.040 +I love that. + +00:14:31.920 --> 00:14:32.420 +[Speaker 0]: Great. Okay, we are almost perfectly on time. + +00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:35.420 +I think we caught up about 1 or 2 seconds + +00:14:36.820 --> 00:14:37.200 +into the last sentence you said but otherwise + +00:14:38.800 --> 00:14:38.960 +we were splendidly on time. + +00:14:39.760 --> 00:14:40.260 +So thank you so much Marcus. + +00:14:42.940 --> 00:14:43.140 +[Speaker 1]: You're welcome. So I wanted to say a little + +00:14:46.160 --> 00:14:46.660 +bit about that question about handling EDA. + +00:14:52.680 --> 00:14:52.960 +[Speaker 0]: Can you see the chat on the left? + +00:14:54.220 --> 00:14:54.720 +Because people have started asking questions + +00:14:55.680 --> 00:14:56.180 +on the left. Can you see the chat? + +00:14:56.366 --> 00:14:56.866 +[Speaker 1]: I mean I used email. Sorry, + +00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:00.820 +[Speaker 0]: So you've got multiple avenues for questions. + +00:15:01.093 --> 00:15:01.166 +[Speaker 2]: You can + +00:15:01.880 --> 00:15:02.380 +[Speaker 0]: still answer questions in the chat. + +00:15:03.540 --> 00:15:03.760 +[Speaker 1]: sorry, sorry. Okay, I'm just going to go into + +00:15:04.740 --> 00:15:05.240 +that. Yeah, that's fine. + +00:15:06.420 --> 00:15:06.760 +[Speaker 0]: Sure, I'll need to go now. + +00:15:08.260 --> 00:15:08.560 +So Marcus, have a great day and I'll probably + +00:15:08.860 --> 00:15:09.360 +see you later. + +NOTE Start of section to review + +00:15:11.780 --> 00:15:12.280 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, thank you. Sorry. + +00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:15.620 +Bye bye. There was a question about the, + +00:15:17.280 --> 00:15:17.560 +I wanted to ask the answer the question about + +00:15:21.380 --> 00:15:21.760 +EDA, large data sets. So, + +00:15:24.160 --> 00:15:24.660 +I mean, I teach undergraduate now, + +00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:28.100 +so there's a limited number of courses, + +00:15:32.100 --> 00:15:32.360 +like where I use, actually have big data + +00:15:35.860 --> 00:15:36.100 +issues. And I mean I'm not saying that I'm + +00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:38.760 +not that I don't run into performance issues + +00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:40.580 +with Emacs. I obviously do. + +00:15:43.380 --> 00:15:43.680 +But like the performance issues in Emacs are + +00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:45.780 +comparable to performance issues for example + +00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:49.580 +when using R. In R everything is in memory So + +00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:52.700 +you are limited to the available, + +00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:56.020 +what is it, 2 gigabyte or whatever memory of + +00:15:57.720 --> 00:15:58.180 +your computer. So you would have to find + +00:15:59.860 --> 00:16:00.360 +other infrastructure solutions anyway. + +00:16:05.540 --> 00:16:05.860 +The advantage of using Emacs is that I can, + +00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:07.620 +within 1 Org Mode file, + +00:16:09.780 --> 00:16:10.280 +connect to an external database. + +00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:13.840 +I can even, as probably most of you know, + +00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:17.860 +I can even use it as a text-based web browser + +00:16:20.140 --> 00:16:20.640 +if I want to. So I could look at individual + +00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:26.780 +files. And the other point of EDA of course + +00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:30.640 +is that you're not supposed to look at the + +00:16:32.760 --> 00:16:33.260 +tables. You're supposed to get the basic + +00:16:40.800 --> 00:16:41.300 +frame of your data. Is there a header? + +00:16:43.540 --> 00:16:43.780 +What's the approximate size and stuff like + +00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:45.980 +that? And then you're supposed to import it + +00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:47.580 +into a data frame ideally, + +00:16:50.760 --> 00:16:51.260 +at least in portions. And I don't think, + +00:16:56.040 --> 00:16:56.260 +yeah, so that's it. But the full answer is + +00:16:59.720 --> 00:16:59.980 +that I have not done big data analysis in + +00:17:01.780 --> 00:17:02.280 +Emacs. So that's actually a really nice + +00:17:05.900 --> 00:17:06.099 +extension. I'm going to write that down as a + +00:17:07.900 --> 00:17:08.260 +thing to talk about in some future talk. + +00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:10.819 +Okay, so ADA with big data. + +00:17:13.579 --> 00:17:13.940 +Even though interesting would be to know what + +00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:16.560 +kind of size of data you're actually talking + +00:17:18.800 --> 00:17:19.300 +about. So I don't know, + +00:17:25.740 --> 00:17:25.940 +what is it, upwards of 1 terabyte or + +00:17:27.099 --> 00:17:27.520 +something like that, I don't know. + +00:17:28.520 --> 00:17:29.020 +That'd be interesting to know. + +00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:34.940 +Haven't done that in class. + +00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:40.460 +So there's another question. + +00:17:42.840 --> 00:17:43.020 +Proportion of students that you think would + +00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:44.820 +keep on using Emacs after your course? + +00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:46.000 +That's not a difficult question, + +00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:47.880 +because as I said, I have very small classes. + +00:17:48.760 --> 00:17:49.200 +I've been here since 2 years. + +00:17:51.040 --> 00:17:51.540 +So I'm in touch with almost all the students. + +00:17:54.280 --> 00:17:54.760 +In fact, I'm getting them work after school. + +00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:55.980 +So that's really cool. + +00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:00.660 +And everybody who took to Emacs really + +00:18:03.540 --> 00:18:03.900 +seriously, so probably about 25% or so keep + +00:18:05.660 --> 00:18:06.160 +using Emacs after, afterwards. + +00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:08.360 +I mean, even in the job, + +00:18:09.580 --> 00:18:10.080 +right, in the professional field. + +00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:13.080 +Who, those who keep using Emacs after the + +00:18:14.760 --> 00:18:15.180 +course, I think the number is greater, + +00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:16.920 +but I have not followed up on that. + +00:18:22.800 --> 00:18:23.140 +I have to, my guess is more than half, + +00:18:24.860 --> 00:18:25.360 +I would say, half or more than half. + +00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:27.880 +Oh, Aaron, thank you so much. + +00:18:31.220 --> 00:18:31.320 +That's very sweet. But I didn't think the + +00:18:32.080 --> 00:18:32.300 +presentation was great. + +00:18:33.700 --> 00:18:33.840 +I was thinking about redoing it, + +00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:35.700 +but this is actually the first take. + +00:18:38.360 --> 00:18:38.860 +It was late, I had lots of other stuff to do. + +00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:44.700 +I think what I'm more interested in than + +00:18:46.760 --> 00:18:47.260 +papers is probably this idea of making + +00:18:50.860 --> 00:18:51.020 +Emacs-based data science videos because there + +00:18:51.840 --> 00:18:52.120 +aren't many out there. + +00:18:53.100 --> 00:18:53.600 +Most of the people who do, + +00:18:56.980 --> 00:18:57.240 +and computer science, most people who do that + +00:18:59.060 --> 00:18:59.240 +are not either developers and certainly not + +00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:02.080 +teachers. So I think that's a good idea. + +00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:03.740 +I'm gonna pick that up. + +00:19:15.040 --> 00:19:15.540 +So to do more Remax based data science videos + +00:19:19.700 --> 00:19:20.200 +Is there anything else? + +00:19:22.260 --> 00:19:22.360 +More people. There are some people here in + +00:19:22.800 --> 00:19:23.300 +the room still. + +00:19:25.600 --> 00:19:26.100 +[Speaker 2]: If you do a PSVL on work. + +00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:31.140 +What? Or wiki. What's my YouTube channel? + +00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:36.220 +[Speaker 1]: Oh, yeah, I'm going to give you the, + +00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:38.520 +I've got a bunch of different YouTube + +00:19:40.580 --> 00:19:40.720 +channels. I'm going to put them in the + +00:19:42.740 --> 00:19:43.240 +comments to my talk. Hold on, + +00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:46.500 +the 1 where I have the latest Emacs videos, + +00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:48.740 +you find my name, there's nobody in the world + +00:19:50.560 --> 00:19:51.060 +with my name. So if you look for Gerten Krag + +00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:55.740 +on YouTube, then you will find it. + +00:20:00.060 --> 00:20:00.320 +[Speaker 2]: But I got a bunch of them. + +00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:01.940 +Hold on, I'm going to give you the... + +00:20:19.540 --> 00:20:20.040 +[Speaker 1]: My channel. Okay, This 1 has only got a few + +00:20:23.800 --> 00:20:24.300 +videos. But so there's 1 with a lot more. + +00:20:32.220 --> 00:20:32.720 +Few recent videos. And I'm going to post + +00:20:41.120 --> 00:20:41.320 +more. Other ones in the comments of this + +00:20:43.840 --> 00:20:44.340 +video. Okay, what else? + +00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:51.140 +I'm trying to find my way back to the button. + +00:20:58.980 --> 00:20:59.200 +Okay, cool. Oh, yes, thank you. + +00:21:01.220 --> 00:21:01.500 +I will. That's very good. + +00:21:02.780 --> 00:21:03.120 +Thank you so much. Of course, + +00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:05.940 +I use Vork. I hadn't even thought of it. + +00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:15.140 +Very good. It's interesting, + +00:21:17.520 --> 00:21:18.020 +that's something that comes to my mind. + +00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:19.700 +When I was a young student, + +00:21:23.800 --> 00:21:24.020 +right, people who used Emacs and the web + +00:21:25.420 --> 00:21:25.920 +wasn't particularly large. + +00:21:29.180 --> 00:21:29.440 +So the volunteers would automatically make + +00:21:30.920 --> 00:21:31.420 +videos but not for commercial purposes. + +00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:34.740 +Now you have an army of people who make + +00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:37.700 +commercial videos and the videos are usually + +00:21:40.560 --> 00:21:41.040 +good for the first 10% of every content, + +00:21:42.340 --> 00:21:42.540 +but as soon as it gets a little more + +00:21:44.620 --> 00:21:44.760 +difficult, they either don't know what to do + +00:21:48.420 --> 00:21:48.600 +anymore or they don't do it because it's not + +00:21:50.820 --> 00:21:50.980 +commercially viable. The number of people who + +00:21:53.520 --> 00:21:53.680 +move on is gets smaller and smaller and + +00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:55.740 +smaller. So there's no commerce anymore. + +00:21:57.340 --> 00:21:57.840 +But when I was a student, + +00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:00.980 +pretty much all the documentation everywhere + +00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:02.380 +was created by volunteers, + +00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:04.840 +just like this conference or like anything in + +00:22:09.320 --> 00:22:09.480 +org mode. And that doesn't seem to be much of + +00:22:12.260 --> 00:22:12.760 +a trend anymore, but maybe we can resurrect + +00:22:22.360 --> 00:22:22.500 +it. So, yes, I'm definitely going to + +00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:25.840 +contribute to that. Multiple people are + +00:22:30.540 --> 00:22:31.040 +typing here. Oh, sorry. + +00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:36.180 +Yes. Thank you so much. + +00:22:40.760 --> 00:22:40.920 +I'm gonna put that, I'm gonna rectify that in + +00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:45.260 +the comment. Having said that, + +00:22:49.320 --> 00:22:49.820 +I am not 100% sure that I didn't lie here. + +00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:52.760 +May just be because I didn't have much time + +00:22:53.860 --> 00:22:54.340 +to put the presentation together. + +00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:56.820 +And it's perfectly possible that that's + +00:22:59.280 --> 00:22:59.780 +actually Google slides and not all reveal. + +00:23:02.120 --> 00:23:02.320 +In the classroom when I present and just do + +00:23:03.600 --> 00:23:04.100 +lectures, I always do reveal, + +00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:07.900 +but most of the time I do a tree slide. + +00:23:10.520 --> 00:23:10.840 +That's the quickest way to do it for me. + +00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:15.060 +So, so presentation. Hold on, + +00:23:16.080 --> 00:23:16.580 +Let me just copy this 1. + +00:23:20.320 --> 00:23:20.820 +Make sure that this doesn't get lost. + +00:23:22.700 --> 00:23:23.200 +Thank you so much for that. + +00:23:25.600 --> 00:23:26.100 +And presentations in class. + +00:23:29.820 --> 00:23:30.320 +I use sometimes org-present, + +00:23:32.360 --> 00:23:32.860 +but there are issues with the font sometimes. + +00:23:36.560 --> 00:23:36.960 +I use Treeslide most of the time and Org + +00:23:44.220 --> 00:23:44.720 +[Speaker 2]: tool. + +00:23:46.560 --> 00:23:46.780 +[Speaker 1]: Reveal. But this 1 is my top Of course, + +00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:49.140 +this is not org, so forget about that. + +00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:08.220 +Okay. Yeah, so you can send me your, + +00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:12.160 +you've got my email, I think, + +00:24:13.780 --> 00:24:14.060 +on the end, if you're interested in following + +00:24:15.860 --> 00:24:16.360 +up or letting me know about your stuff. + +00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:18.220 +It might be interesting to, + +00:24:19.840 --> 00:24:20.060 +I don't know, might be interesting to put + +00:24:21.540 --> 00:24:22.040 +together a conference or a little seminar + +00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:23.000 +just for educators. + +00:24:38.770 --> 00:24:39.025 +DF is still typing, I'm waiting. + +00:24:39.280 --> 00:24:39.780 +I'm waiting. + +00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:46.420 +[Speaker 2]: Actually, our mod maintainer, + +00:24:51.860 --> 00:24:52.280 +Bastian, was talking about the possibility to + +00:24:53.620 --> 00:24:54.120 +have just an Org Mod conference. + +00:24:59.020 --> 00:24:59.200 +But the question is, is it worth making a + +00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:02.940 +[Speaker 1]: A whole separate 1 what? + +00:25:04.740 --> 00:25:05.020 +[Speaker 2]: whole separate 1? A whole separate org + +00:25:09.100 --> 00:25:09.600 +[Speaker 1]: Oh, I see. Yeah, probably would be. + +00:25:10.840 --> 00:25:11.340 +Actually. + +00:25:13.660 --> 00:25:13.940 +[Speaker 2]: dedicated conference. It's just like you see + +00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:15.980 +how EmacsConf is well done. + +00:25:19.080 --> 00:25:19.440 +So it's like creating anything that as good + +00:25:25.040 --> 00:25:25.540 +[Speaker 1]: Yes. No, I think that's a good idea. + +00:25:26.120 --> 00:25:26.620 +Yeah, I mean. + +00:25:30.100 --> 00:25:30.480 +[Speaker 2]: as tricky. I mean, Okay, + +00:25:32.560 --> 00:25:32.920 +it's anywhere, like half of Emacs is anywhere + +00:25:36.380 --> 00:25:36.880 +remote. So it's almost the same. + +00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:40.200 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. Well, I suppose at this point, + +00:25:41.260 --> 00:25:41.580 +I don't know if that's what you mean, + +00:25:44.820 --> 00:25:45.040 +Org Mode is probably what attracts people to + +00:25:46.620 --> 00:25:47.060 +Emacs in the first place. + +00:25:50.540 --> 00:25:51.040 +Like, I suppose Org Roam is the, + +00:25:54.140 --> 00:25:54.600 +maybe the biggest 1 for people even outside + +00:25:57.540 --> 00:25:58.040 +of computer science. I use Org.ROM + +00:26:07.380 --> 00:26:07.560 +for everything. I think the maintainer or + +00:26:08.660 --> 00:26:09.140 +maybe the creator of Org.MODE + +00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:11.740 +has claimed and said for many years that Org + +00:26:13.940 --> 00:26:14.220 +Mode itself doesn't actually necessarily need + +00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:16.940 +Emacs. You can have it as a completely + +00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:18.660 +separate application as well. + +00:26:20.600 --> 00:26:21.020 +But for a number of reasons, + +00:26:23.300 --> 00:26:23.440 +I don't like that. I really like the idea to + +00:26:30.420 --> 00:26:30.660 +[Speaker 2]: why- The current strategy is that It has to + +00:26:33.420 --> 00:26:33.580 +be Emacs because the configurability is 1 of + +00:26:34.700 --> 00:26:35.140 +the strong points anyway. + +00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:35.800 +[Speaker 1]: have it inside Emacs. The reason That's true. + +00:26:37.120 --> 00:26:37.620 +[Speaker 2]: You cannot make a separate application. + +00:26:39.640 --> 00:26:39.800 +[Speaker 1]: No, that's true. I was going to say that. + +00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:41.460 +The thing is you use the flexibility. + +00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:43.220 +Plus, you also use the, + +00:26:45.800 --> 00:26:46.080 +I don't know if that's the right word, + +00:26:48.380 --> 00:26:48.760 +but you use there's something about the free + +00:26:52.420 --> 00:26:52.600 +ideology of Emacs that is what attracted me + +00:26:55.760 --> 00:26:56.260 +to it in the first place when I was younger + +00:26:59.620 --> 00:27:00.120 +and that I find even more important now. + +00:27:02.980 --> 00:27:03.480 +So what they say the community aspect, + +00:27:08.600 --> 00:27:08.800 +the reason, the main reason why Python is so + +00:27:12.620 --> 00:27:13.120 +big today, really. So yeah. + +00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:17.860 +[Speaker 2]: But in terms of going out of Emacs, + +00:27:20.800 --> 00:27:21.300 +it's org syntax that is supposed to be like + +00:27:22.760 --> 00:27:23.260 +breaking out of Emacs. + +00:27:28.340 --> 00:27:28.540 +Yeah. So like there's a plan to lay out the + +00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:30.920 +actual standard document so that you can + +00:27:32.040 --> 00:27:32.540 +register the format officially. + +00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:34.760 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I think I've heard that too. + +00:27:36.060 --> 00:27:36.560 +I've not followed up on it much. + +00:27:38.820 --> 00:27:39.320 +I don't know what the, + +00:27:40.760 --> 00:27:41.260 +I mean, that probably would, + +00:27:43.520 --> 00:27:43.780 +it would very likely, if you do that, + +00:27:45.060 --> 00:27:45.380 +it would at least for a short time, + +00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:47.660 +strengthen org mode and weaken emacs. + +00:27:50.380 --> 00:27:50.880 +I don't know what other examples, + +00:27:54.180 --> 00:27:54.680 +if there are other examples of applications + +00:27:57.560 --> 00:27:57.840 +pulled out of IDEs like that. + +00:27:58.940 --> 00:27:59.440 +I'm not aware of any others. + +00:28:02.420 --> 00:28:02.660 +[Speaker 2]: Actually, people are trying to make + +00:28:04.700 --> 00:28:04.920 +three-seater drama, people are trying to make + +00:28:05.740 --> 00:28:06.120 +like some external parsers, + +00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:10.320 +a lot of them. And a lot of stuff is done on + +00:28:11.820 --> 00:28:12.320 +mobile part, like Android, + +00:28:13.820 --> 00:28:14.320 +iOS, especially recently. + +00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:18.980 +So things that are Emacs independent are + +00:28:22.940 --> 00:28:23.040 +[Speaker 1]: Okay, yeah. I have no doubt that there is a + +00:28:26.120 --> 00:28:26.620 +[Speaker 2]: demanded. Especially in the environment, + +00:28:27.540 --> 00:28:28.040 +like every time. + +00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:30.680 +[Speaker 1]: demand. Yeah. I mean, I didn't get into that + +00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:35.020 +very much. I have some of my students have 0 + +00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:36.900 +affinity with computers. + +00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:39.900 +They really don't know their way around their + +00:28:43.820 --> 00:28:44.320 +computers at all. And so for them, + +00:28:50.980 --> 00:28:51.440 +It is quite important to learn how to find + +00:28:56.380 --> 00:28:56.520 +your way around Emacs because it's like a + +00:28:57.320 --> 00:28:57.820 +little operating system, + +00:29:00.060 --> 00:29:00.300 +but it's not. It's an operating system + +00:29:03.460 --> 00:29:03.960 +without much of the obscurity. + +00:29:07.760 --> 00:29:07.960 +And the alternative to that would be to + +00:29:10.040 --> 00:29:10.520 +simply let them work only on the command + +00:29:11.980 --> 00:29:12.480 +line, which is another possibility. + +00:29:16.040 --> 00:29:16.160 +But, you know, there of course you are + +00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:20.520 +limited with regard to if you want to swap + +00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:23.500 +languages. So for example, + +00:29:25.900 --> 00:29:26.000 +quite often I find myself in the situation I + +00:29:28.660 --> 00:29:28.780 +teach data science in R and Python and in + +00:29:31.360 --> 00:29:31.520 +Emacs org mode I can demonstrate both of + +00:29:34.600 --> 00:29:35.100 +these side by side in the same file. + +00:29:38.200 --> 00:29:38.700 +And that's a great advantage. + +00:29:42.040 --> 00:29:42.540 +Not to overburden the students when they are + +00:29:44.900 --> 00:29:45.100 +at the beginning with things that you don't + +00:29:47.120 --> 00:29:47.620 +want them to necessarily learn about. + +00:29:50.560 --> 00:29:51.000 +And plus the thing what I like as a graduate + +00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:54.400 +student when I stepped onto Emacs was that it + +00:29:59.960 --> 00:30:00.140 +was infinite possibilities to lose myself in + +00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:03.060 +Emacs and you know go on and learn more stuff + +00:30:06.180 --> 00:30:06.340 +about it. But it's such a long time ago that + +00:30:09.860 --> 00:30:10.360 +I barely dare to mention it anymore. + +00:30:12.500 --> 00:30:12.880 +[Speaker 2]: For command line, actually, + +00:30:16.820 --> 00:30:17.080 +it's since the Jupyter notebooks and that + +00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:19.380 +Google thing they are running. + +00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:23.820 +It's getting so popular that it's clear that + +00:30:26.600 --> 00:30:26.760 +command line is just losing in popularity in + +00:30:31.420 --> 00:30:31.920 +[Speaker 1]: well, yes and no. I mean, + +00:30:32.860 --> 00:30:33.360 +[Speaker 2]: this. Yeah, of course, + +00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:38.400 +Not the usage. People are still using it, + +00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:38.900 +obviously. + +00:30:40.520 --> 00:30:41.020 +[Speaker 1]: I mean, in Google Colab, + +00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:43.620 +only the paid version allows you to go to the + +00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:45.460 +terminal and use the command line. + +00:30:48.140 --> 00:30:48.580 +But of course, the traction, + +00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:50.140 +and I think that's kind of interesting, + +00:30:54.560 --> 00:30:54.680 +1 of the reasons why IPython or any of the + +00:30:56.780 --> 00:30:56.960 +Jupyter notebooks are so cool is because you + +00:30:59.440 --> 00:30:59.940 +can use a lot of shell commands from the + +00:31:04.620 --> 00:31:05.100 +IPython shell. There's a whole bunch of magic + +00:31:06.460 --> 00:31:06.960 +commands which are quite powerful. + +00:31:09.620 --> 00:31:10.120 +The 1 that comes to mind is a time, + +00:31:11.820 --> 00:31:12.320 +the time command, for example, + +00:31:13.580 --> 00:31:14.080 +you know, it gives you a really nice, + +00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:16.800 +performance, quick performance check. + +00:31:17.660 --> 00:31:18.120 +There's a bunch of different, + +00:31:20.500 --> 00:31:20.900 +I think probably close to a hundred magic + +00:31:22.340 --> 00:31:22.840 +commands that you can use in Jupyter. + +00:31:25.600 --> 00:31:25.840 +But I don't know JupyterLab too well, + +00:31:28.840 --> 00:31:29.220 +but I noticed that the companies that do + +00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:31.080 +online training, And they are usually the + +00:31:34.600 --> 00:31:34.920 +ones that are closest to what beginners want, + +00:31:35.600 --> 00:31:36.100 +especially in business. + +00:31:40.780 --> 00:31:40.960 +And what those companies do is they take + +00:31:43.040 --> 00:31:43.220 +JupiterLab and turn it into a presentation of + +00:31:44.300 --> 00:31:44.800 +their own. Another 1 is Notable, + +00:31:47.380 --> 00:31:47.880 +notable.io. That's another 1. + +00:31:50.280 --> 00:31:50.500 +They took JupyterLab and turned it into + +00:31:52.080 --> 00:31:52.200 +something commercial. It's boosted up a + +00:31:58.680 --> 00:31:58.860 +little bit. And so the shell inside the + +00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:01.960 +JupyterLab has some of the most more + +00:32:03.120 --> 00:32:03.620 +important shell properties. + +00:32:05.800 --> 00:32:06.000 +And so people still use the command line + +00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:07.600 +without knowing that they use the command + +00:32:12.600 --> 00:32:13.100 +line. But I also like doing, + +00:32:14.820 --> 00:32:15.320 +how do I use org-roam? + +00:32:21.900 --> 00:32:22.020 +Well, I use it, I do not have not used it + +00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:23.000 +with the students yet, + +00:32:24.800 --> 00:32:25.020 +only the best students have sort of seen me + +00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:29.760 +use it and copied it. But I use it probably + +00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:32.000 +in a very naive, trivial way. + +00:32:33.080 --> 00:32:33.580 +I can't say that I am, + +00:32:36.460 --> 00:32:36.960 +that I have a very sophisticated use. + +00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:39.640 +I basically, I like the fact that, + +00:32:42.940 --> 00:32:43.100 +I mean, it's built on the original concept of + +00:32:44.280 --> 00:32:44.540 +the, with the German word, + +00:32:47.900 --> 00:32:48.280 +Zettelkasten, right? Which is that you do not + +00:32:50.780 --> 00:32:50.940 +have to think about a taxonomy because as you + +00:32:53.620 --> 00:32:53.800 +move along, your taxonomy changes all the + +00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:55.580 +time. You know, what you think is important + +00:32:56.820 --> 00:32:57.320 +at the beginning, your root node, + +00:32:58.480 --> 00:32:58.940 +as you go along, you realize, + +00:33:00.220 --> 00:33:00.600 +oh, that's not the root node at all. + +00:33:02.560 --> 00:33:02.720 +There's a higher level and a higher level and + +00:33:04.540 --> 00:33:04.780 +some of the lower levels aren't at the lower + +00:33:05.860 --> 00:33:06.280 +level, they're actually at the higher level. + +00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:10.460 +So you're beginning to create hierarchies + +00:33:13.940 --> 00:33:14.280 +that are out of date as soon as you create + +00:33:16.260 --> 00:33:16.360 +the hierarchy. So what is the idea of the + +00:33:18.340 --> 00:33:18.480 +tittle custom is that anything that comes to + +00:33:20.600 --> 00:33:21.100 +your mind you can throw in the custom the box + +00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:26.540 +it literally means Box of notes and That's + +00:33:27.560 --> 00:33:27.740 +what I appreciate about it. + +00:33:32.780 --> 00:33:32.920 +So I create a I create a note pretty much for + +00:33:35.280 --> 00:33:35.780 +anything I do, but I've only used it for + +00:33:37.660 --> 00:33:38.160 +about a year and a half or so, + +00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:39.740 +or grown, maybe a year. + +00:33:43.380 --> 00:33:43.700 +So I can see that I'm coming up against the + +00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:46.980 +Zettelkasten or note box problems, + +00:33:50.660 --> 00:33:50.860 +which is that I've got so many notes now that + +00:33:52.460 --> 00:33:52.960 +unless I have clever aliases, + +00:33:56.580 --> 00:33:56.680 +there is a chance that I might forget that I + +00:33:59.540 --> 00:34:00.040 +[Speaker 2]: That's why you need meta-notes. + +00:34:01.100 --> 00:34:01.600 +[Speaker 1]: have a note. So I need a- Yes, + +00:34:04.420 --> 00:34:04.920 +[Speaker 2]: In other words, a summarization is important, + +00:34:06.300 --> 00:34:06.800 +no matter what system you use. + +00:34:09.600 --> 00:34:09.719 +[Speaker 1]: yes. But what I'm trying to say is that's a + +00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:11.260 +different approach than hierarchies, + +00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:13.580 +right? It's the same, it's the same, + +00:34:15.460 --> 00:34:15.960 +it's the same principle as a relational + +00:34:18.219 --> 00:34:18.719 +database versus a hierarchical database. + +00:34:23.179 --> 00:34:23.360 +Same thing. So, yeah, I've not used that. + +00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:25.400 +I've not really used, actually I have cut + +00:34:26.520 --> 00:34:27.020 +meta notes, of course I do. + +00:34:28.500 --> 00:34:28.940 +So notes that point to other notes. + +00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:32.320 +Yes, of course. I use those. + +00:34:32.780 --> 00:34:33.280 +I have forgotten that. + +00:34:38.300 --> 00:34:38.800 +I have not taught that part to the students + +00:34:42.340 --> 00:34:42.840 +because I do project work with the students, + +00:34:46.080 --> 00:34:46.360 +but there's only so much time. + +00:34:47.719 --> 00:34:48.219 +I'm already, I mean, already, + +00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:50.980 +I don't think there's any class that where I + +00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:55.820 +am able to use more than 30% of my material. + +00:34:57.400 --> 00:34:57.620 +And the reason is that when the students come + +00:34:59.120 --> 00:34:59.220 +to class, which is I pointed out in the + +00:35:00.600 --> 00:35:01.100 +video, they know so little. + +00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:03.720 +And most of the students, + +00:35:04.680 --> 00:35:04.960 +at least in liberal arts, + +00:35:09.780 --> 00:35:10.280 +spend just too little time outside of class, + +00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:11.600 +getting there, you know, + +00:35:12.660 --> 00:35:13.040 +drilling down into the, + +00:35:14.140 --> 00:35:14.640 +into the, into the infrastructure, + +00:35:16.700 --> 00:35:17.060 +into the work. Only, only the best students + +00:35:18.820 --> 00:35:19.320 +do that. The ones that really catch fire. + +00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:22.280 +[Speaker 2]: Don't you have something like a course + +00:35:23.260 --> 00:35:23.760 +project at the end? + +00:35:25.460 --> 00:35:25.760 +[Speaker 1]: Yes, I have course, not at the end. + +00:35:27.340 --> 00:35:27.720 +I use Scrum. Maybe I shouldn't, + +00:35:29.140 --> 00:35:29.640 +but I've used Scrum for many years. + +00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:32.600 +So I have course projects that start at the + +00:35:35.080 --> 00:35:35.320 +beginning and they do sprint reviews every 3 + +00:35:40.380 --> 00:35:40.640 +or 4 weeks. So term end projects I find + +00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:43.100 +completely useless because the students do + +00:35:44.760 --> 00:35:45.260 +the work at the very end of the term. + +00:35:49.600 --> 00:35:49.740 +[Speaker 2]: By term end I mean they don't start at the + +00:35:51.380 --> 00:35:51.880 +end, they just report at the end. + +00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:54.300 +[Speaker 1]: I use the IMRAD, I use the IMRAD method. + +00:35:57.720 --> 00:35:58.220 +So I use IMRAD, basically IMRAD plus, + +00:35:59.900 --> 00:36:00.300 +plus Scrum, right? So, + +00:36:01.720 --> 00:36:02.220 +So the first sprint review is introductory, + +00:36:02.980 --> 00:36:03.480 +the research proposal, + +00:36:04.540 --> 00:36:05.040 +the second 1 is about methodology, + +00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:06.360 +the third 1 about results, + +00:36:07.540 --> 00:36:08.040 +and the last 1 is their final presentation. + +00:36:10.600 --> 00:36:11.100 +And so that's the way I manage the projects, + +00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:16.020 +but that's about as much as I can do with + +00:36:17.380 --> 00:36:17.680 +them. It's a good idea. + +00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:19.780 +I hadn't even thought about using Org-ROM + +00:36:22.640 --> 00:36:22.760 +with them, but to teach them that might be a + +00:36:23.680 --> 00:36:24.180 +good idea, actually. + +00:36:26.720 --> 00:36:27.220 +[Speaker 2]: Well, for Org-ROM, actually, + +00:36:32.060 --> 00:36:32.340 +what I found useful during my graduate is for + +00:36:34.240 --> 00:36:34.740 +literature review. Yes. + +00:36:37.080 --> 00:36:37.340 +The other part of our program that is not + +00:36:39.520 --> 00:36:40.020 +about your like, noting down your thoughts, + +00:36:42.340 --> 00:36:42.840 +is about writing about literature notes. + +00:36:44.860 --> 00:36:45.180 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, that's a good idea, + +00:36:45.780 --> 00:36:46.060 +actually. And of course, + +00:36:47.660 --> 00:36:47.960 +I mean, there's more stuff that they should + +00:36:49.700 --> 00:36:50.140 +learn, you know, like another 1, + +00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:51.780 +since you mentioned literature, + +00:36:54.140 --> 00:36:54.640 +you know, latex and Bibtech is another + +00:36:57.340 --> 00:36:57.840 +obvious extension of that. + +00:37:01.020 --> 00:37:01.120 +But that is actually a good idea because the + +00:37:02.720 --> 00:37:03.080 +literature is what they have the hardest time + +00:37:06.560 --> 00:37:06.980 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah, like when you need to read like 50 + +00:37:06.980 --> 00:37:07.480 +papers. + +00:37:12.260 --> 00:37:12.480 +[Speaker 1]: with. Last term, since you mentioned that, + +00:37:16.020 --> 00:37:16.220 +I had a really nice experience because 1 of + +00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:18.300 +our librarians, our digital librarian, + +00:37:19.480 --> 00:37:19.920 +came along and talked to the students, + +00:37:21.300 --> 00:37:21.580 +and he taught me about a tool called + +00:37:23.040 --> 00:37:23.540 +litmap.com, which is basically, + +00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:25.420 +I don't know how it's implemented, + +00:37:26.680 --> 00:37:27.180 +but it's basically a graph, + +00:37:31.380 --> 00:37:31.620 +a graph representation of papers organized by + +00:37:35.080 --> 00:37:35.580 +citation. It's very, very cool. + +00:37:38.160 --> 00:37:38.560 +And the students who used to only find, + +00:37:40.520 --> 00:37:41.020 +I don't know, 1 paper and otherwise, + +00:37:44.440 --> 00:37:44.940 +of course, 15 YouTube videos and 100 blogs, + +00:37:48.860 --> 00:37:49.360 +suddenly started finding and reading + +00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:52.120 +scientific papers. It was only because of + +00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:54.900 +this presentation. So you should take the, + +00:37:57.060 --> 00:37:57.560 +I think, I hope that is the right, + +00:37:59.060 --> 00:37:59.560 +that's the right mode, + +00:38:01.940 --> 00:38:02.380 +litmaps. Okay, it's not litmap, + +00:38:05.500 --> 00:38:05.640 +it's called Litmaps. I'm gonna give you an + +00:38:08.860 --> 00:38:09.000 +example. I don't know if I can share this, + +00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:10.240 +if you can look at that. + +00:38:13.140 --> 00:38:13.640 +But basically you create a, + +00:38:16.080 --> 00:38:16.580 +1 can use 1 of your papers as a seed, + +00:38:18.340 --> 00:38:18.840 +and then it will create a graph, + +00:38:21.260 --> 00:38:21.760 +graph representation of it for you. + +00:38:24.720 --> 00:38:25.220 +And this is a powerful tool in itself. + +00:38:27.100 --> 00:38:27.600 +But what I'm saying is that the students + +00:38:30.700 --> 00:38:30.860 +suddenly, their use of literature and that + +00:38:32.120 --> 00:38:32.620 +citation goes to the roof. + +00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:36.140 +And I've been waiting for that for probably + +00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:38.260 +15 years since I've started teaching. + +00:38:42.900 --> 00:38:43.400 +So it's crazy. That's really cool. + +00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:47.720 +[Speaker 2]: So here is the same tool, + +00:38:48.900 --> 00:38:49.400 +it's called connected papers. + +00:38:53.040 --> 00:38:53.540 +It's based on the open source citation data. + +00:38:55.840 --> 00:38:56.340 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I know that as well, + +00:38:56.680 --> 00:38:57.180 +I think. + +00:39:01.240 --> 00:39:01.480 +[Speaker 2]: It's actually very useful when you just start + +00:39:03.680 --> 00:39:03.960 +learning the topic, it's like you find 1 + +00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:05.800 +paper, then you look into the connections, + +00:39:07.900 --> 00:39:08.260 +you can quickly narrow down to the most + +00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:10.260 +cited, the core papers on the topic. + +00:39:12.340 --> 00:39:12.520 +[Speaker 1]: Of course, and that is exactly their + +00:39:14.640 --> 00:39:14.820 +situation, you know, and they're always at + +00:39:16.240 --> 00:39:16.740 +the beginning. As you go on, + +00:39:18.420 --> 00:39:18.680 +you develop different ways, + +00:39:19.640 --> 00:39:20.140 +but for these complete beginners, + +00:39:22.500 --> 00:39:22.680 +that's a good idea. Thank you so much for + +00:39:30.020 --> 00:39:30.520 +[Speaker 0]: anything else? + +00:39:31.820 --> 00:39:31.940 +[Speaker 1]: that. Okay, guys, I've enjoyed the + +00:39:33.460 --> 00:39:33.960 +conversation, so you should definitely, + +00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:37.940 +I'm going to take some of these things away. + +00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:42.280 +Thank you so much for that. + +00:39:45.240 --> 00:39:45.740 +Have you done, Yanta, have you done org mode + +00:39:47.700 --> 00:39:48.200 +documentations yourself on WOC? + +00:39:51.820 --> 00:39:52.120 +Or do you have a sort of a favorite 1? + +00:39:53.160 --> 00:39:53.600 +I mean, I often on walk, + +00:39:56.480 --> 00:39:56.740 +I often use the documentation for code + +00:39:59.440 --> 00:39:59.620 +blocks. I used to when I started doing that + +00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:02.800 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah, because it's only on work. + +00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:04.260 +It's not part of the manual. + +00:40:05.140 --> 00:40:05.280 +[Speaker 1]: for the first time. Yeah, + +00:40:06.940 --> 00:40:07.440 +yeah. And so I've used that a lot. + +00:40:09.060 --> 00:40:09.560 +[Speaker 2]: Have I done? Not really, + +00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:11.460 +mostly fixing the errors. + +00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:15.560 +Okay. Yeah, I think that's a really good + +00:40:15.560 --> 00:40:16.060 +idea. + +00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:19.780 +[Speaker 1]: All right. Well, thank you very much. + +00:40:22.040 --> 00:40:22.360 +And it's great to be at this conference. + +00:40:23.940 --> 00:40:24.440 +I think I'm going to get on. + +00:40:28.740 --> 00:40:29.240 +[Speaker 2]: Thanks for answering all the questions. + +00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:32.560 +And for the talk, It was quite interesting to + +00:40:35.160 --> 00:40:35.660 +see our modules in actual teaching. + +00:40:38.240 --> 00:40:38.560 +[Speaker 1]: Yes, thank you. And I got to thank Daniel + +00:40:40.600 --> 00:40:40.840 +German from Canada, the 1 of, + +00:40:43.580 --> 00:40:43.660 +I had him on 1 of the slides because he, + +00:40:45.140 --> 00:40:45.350 +he inspired me to do that. + +00:40:47.420 --> 00:40:47.540 +And, and I wouldn't be at the conference if I + +00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:49.480 +hadn't contacted him and said oh here's my + +00:40:50.860 --> 00:40:51.020 +paper and he said oh you should come to the + +00:40:52.540 --> 00:40:52.680 +conference and so that's why I came to the + +00:40:58.200 --> 00:40:58.480 +conference. Thank you very much and as they + +00:41:03.860 --> 00:41:04.104 +say keep in touch. You're welcome. + +00:41:04.836 --> 00:41:05.080 +Okay bye-bye. You're welcome. + +00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:15.820 +Okay, bye-bye. Take a copy of the chat before + +00:41:22.020 --> 00:41:22.360 +you go, if you can. Happy weekend to just bye + +00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:22.860 +bye. + +00:41:36.660 --> 00:41:36.840 +[Speaker 2]: You are currently the only person in this + +00:41:36.840 --> 00:41:37.340 +conference. diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-test--what-i-learned-by-writing-test-cases-for-gnu-hyperbole--mats-lidell--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-test--what-i-learned-by-writing-test-cases-for-gnu-hyperbole--mats-lidell--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..bc1bfff5 --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-test--what-i-learned-by-writing-test-cases-for-gnu-hyperbole--mats-lidell--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,1406 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:08.740 --> 00:00:09.240 +[Speaker 0]: Do we have any listeners? + +00:00:13.340 --> 00:00:13.840 +It's you and I. I have a question. + +00:00:16.420 --> 00:00:16.640 +How many tests do you have for hyperbole and + +00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:19.279 +How would you rate the test coverage compared + +00:00:21.279 --> 00:00:21.500 +to other packages? Well, + +00:00:28.279 --> 00:00:28.700 +that's a tricky 1. Shall I spell it out loud + +00:00:31.100 --> 00:00:31.600 +and then maybe type it at the same time? + +00:00:36.420 --> 00:00:36.920 +So, I believe it's around like more than 300 + +00:00:43.660 --> 00:00:44.059 +test cases now. But I cannot compare the test + +00:00:45.220 --> 00:00:45.720 +coverage to any other + +00:01:00.020 --> 00:01:00.520 +other package. Maybe I can type that later. + +00:01:01.560 --> 00:01:02.060 +What do you say, Badal? + +00:01:02.660 --> 00:01:02.900 +[Speaker 1]: package. I have no knowledge of any Yeah, + +00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:04.239 +sure, yeah, that's totally fine. + +00:01:05.660 --> 00:01:06.160 +Feel free to just answer them with voice. + +00:01:08.720 --> 00:01:09.220 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, yeah. There's another question. + +00:01:10.520 --> 00:01:10.920 +1 small suggestion to me, + +00:01:11.440 --> 00:01:11.940 +should means optional, + +00:01:13.660 --> 00:01:14.160 +where shall or must means required. + +00:01:15.940 --> 00:01:16.220 +Not sure if it is too late to make a major + +00:01:17.220 --> 00:01:17.540 +grammar change like that. + +00:01:18.080 --> 00:01:18.580 +Very nice presentation. + +00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:20.340 +So thanks for presentation, + +00:01:24.380 --> 00:01:24.780 +but the package ERT, well, + +00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:28.080 +it's not something that we have come up with. + +00:01:28.920 --> 00:01:29.340 +It's a standard package. + +00:01:32.320 --> 00:01:32.560 +So I believe it has been around for a long + +00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:38.000 +time. So, but please feel free to make + +00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:40.180 +suggestions and maybe you can, + +00:01:43.660 --> 00:01:43.860 +you know, like do a copy or like an alias for + +00:01:46.080 --> 00:01:46.200 +that. If you believe it makes more sense for + +00:01:48.080 --> 00:01:48.580 +your test cases to have that instead. + +00:01:53.540 --> 00:01:53.720 +And then we have another question here. + +00:01:55.540 --> 00:01:55.680 +For your info, you may find this helpful for + +00:01:58.780 --> 00:01:59.020 +running MX test lint both from a command line + +00:02:01.220 --> 00:02:01.720 +and from within MX with a transit menu. + +00:02:03.600 --> 00:02:04.040 +GitHub alpha papa make sure, + +00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:07.100 +yes. It also works on remote CI. + +00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:08.740 +Yeah, thank you, Alpha Papa. + +00:02:10.580 --> 00:02:11.080 +I think I've looked into that, + +00:02:13.440 --> 00:02:13.940 +but we haven't made any use of that. + +00:02:17.920 --> 00:02:18.080 +But maybe you'll inspire me to give it + +00:02:18.400 --> 00:02:18.900 +another look. + +00:02:29.260 --> 00:02:29.760 +[Speaker 2]: Hey guys. + +00:02:34.120 --> 00:02:34.460 +[Speaker 0]: I remember, I recognize that voice. + +00:02:37.160 --> 00:02:37.660 +Hi, Bob. Hey, how are you? + +00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:40.580 +Congratulations, man. Thanks, + +00:02:43.020 --> 00:02:43.320 +Hugh. Thank you. I have another question + +00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:45.900 +here. It is easy to run ad hoc tests inside + +00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:48.600 +an Emacs session given the command line + +00:02:51.180 --> 00:02:51.560 +scripts you need to run to get the batch test + +00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:55.120 +session running? You said it's to run an + +00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:05.920 +ad-hoc test. I'm not sure I understand that + +00:03:14.440 --> 00:03:14.940 +question. Yes, please. + +00:03:15.660 --> 00:03:16.160 +[Speaker 1]: Maybe I can rephrase. Sure. + +00:03:19.900 --> 00:03:20.400 +So I think what I understand is that since + +00:03:22.540 --> 00:03:23.040 +you have to use some of these command lines + +00:03:25.440 --> 00:03:25.940 +scripts to get a batch test session running, + +00:03:28.780 --> 00:03:29.180 +is it easy to run ad hoc tests in an Emacs + +00:03:30.700 --> 00:03:30.900 +session or does that, like in your + +00:03:32.040 --> 00:03:32.540 +experience, has that been difficult? + +00:03:36.820 --> 00:03:37.320 +[Speaker 0]: Well, from the command line, + +00:03:38.660 --> 00:03:38.940 +if you look at the command line, + +00:03:44.160 --> 00:03:44.340 +you'll see that it's only like a few image + +00:03:46.480 --> 00:03:46.980 +functions to call to get that behavior to run + +00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:55.240 +the batch tests. So I think we made some + +00:03:57.100 --> 00:03:57.600 +support function for that in hyperbole. + +00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:02.960 +So it's not, I don't think it's possible out + +00:04:05.540 --> 00:04:06.040 +of the box to do it, but it's not complicated + +00:04:08.060 --> 00:04:08.560 +to do it. + +00:04:12.190 --> 00:04:12.340 +[Speaker 2]: You can define a test anytime, + +00:04:14.780 --> 00:04:15.280 +right? Just like a new function. + +00:04:18.899 --> 00:04:19.240 +So that's ad hoc. You just write your test + +00:04:20.019 --> 00:04:20.519 +and you can run it. + +00:04:22.900 --> 00:04:23.400 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, of course, + +00:04:25.900 --> 00:04:26.180 +but I got the impression it was about running + +00:04:28.620 --> 00:04:29.060 +all your tests like we did with the command + +00:04:35.740 --> 00:04:36.020 +line. Well, so the question is more about how + +00:04:38.260 --> 00:04:38.600 +would you run all your test cases from within + +00:04:44.860 --> 00:04:45.140 +Emacs? And the easy answer to that is + +00:04:48.420 --> 00:04:48.860 +actually you load all your test case files, + +00:04:51.760 --> 00:04:52.080 +and then you run ERT with the T as the test + +00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:53.880 +selector and then it will run all your test + +00:04:53.880 --> 00:04:54.380 +cases. + +00:05:01.780 --> 00:05:01.960 +[Speaker 1]: Right. And I think they have expanded on + +00:05:03.180 --> 00:05:03.520 +their question a little bit as well, + +00:05:04.960 --> 00:05:05.220 +clarifying that. In other words, + +00:05:07.200 --> 00:05:07.360 +can you tweak tests in an Emacs session and + +00:05:08.860 --> 00:05:09.360 +run them right away? Which I believe, + +00:05:11.400 --> 00:05:11.640 +if I understand correctly what Bob was + +00:05:13.820 --> 00:05:14.320 +saying, you can basically define or redefine + +00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:16.080 +functions on the fly and then have them be + +00:05:16.440 --> 00:05:16.940 +run, right? + +00:05:22.200 --> 00:05:22.360 +[Speaker 0]: Yes, yes. You just go into that test case and + +00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:24.620 +you just change it and you run it again. + +00:05:29.060 --> 00:05:29.200 +And either you have to sort of load it or you + +00:05:31.560 --> 00:05:32.060 +can use like the commercial thing I did. + +00:05:36.140 --> 00:05:36.340 +You use hyperbole and just hit meta return on + +00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:38.860 +the test case and it will load it and run the + +00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:42.360 +test case again. So that's of course what you + +00:05:44.220 --> 00:05:44.720 +normally do when you're defining a test or + +00:05:47.440 --> 00:05:47.940 +debug a test case or develop a test case. + +00:05:49.960 --> 00:05:50.460 +Just start with something small, + +00:05:52.700 --> 00:05:53.200 +just make sure maybe you can prepare the test + +00:05:55.320 --> 00:05:55.680 +properly and run it again and again and again + +00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:57.220 +until you're ready with it. + +00:05:59.760 --> 00:05:59.960 +That's a good point. You can definitely do + +00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:03.280 +that and that's part of how I normally + +00:06:06.420 --> 00:06:06.920 +develop the test cases that I mean start with + +00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:09.400 +something small so I can see that I get there + +00:06:12.180 --> 00:06:12.240 +maybe the right input in the buffer that I + +00:06:14.180 --> 00:06:14.340 +want to test on or something and I expand on + +00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:18.400 +that more and more and add more and more more + +00:06:18.460 --> 00:06:18.960 +and more more + +00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:31.540 +[Speaker 2]: tests to it. You might tell them a bit about + +00:06:33.280 --> 00:06:33.480 +how many test cases you have. + +00:06:36.020 --> 00:06:36.440 +I guess you commented on that and like what + +00:06:40.320 --> 00:06:40.820 +happens, you know, with the CICD pipeline, + +00:06:43.780 --> 00:06:44.020 +every time we commit, you know, + +00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:46.560 +across all the versions and what you have set + +00:06:48.760 --> 00:06:49.040 +up there because you know I wish people could + +00:06:53.940 --> 00:06:54.140 +see it. You can go and check on GitHub and + +00:06:57.440 --> 00:06:57.720 +you can see the logs right of any of the + +00:06:59.760 --> 00:06:59.960 +builds and but tell them a bit about that + +00:07:01.080 --> 00:07:01.320 +Mats because I think that's pretty + +00:07:01.320 --> 00:07:01.820 +impressive. + +00:07:07.280 --> 00:07:07.760 +[Speaker 0]: Well, that's part of more the CI, + +00:07:11.760 --> 00:07:12.160 +CD, part of how we developed this using + +00:07:15.460 --> 00:07:15.580 +GitHub and workflows that you get out of the + +00:07:20.740 --> 00:07:20.900 +box from there. So this more than 300 test + +00:07:23.440 --> 00:07:23.720 +cases on our round for I think 5 different + +00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:26.980 +versions of Emacs when we do a pull request + +00:07:33.900 --> 00:07:34.400 +or a commit. So that's a good way to ensure + +00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:38.540 +that it works from version 27.2 + +00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:42.740 +up to the latest master version because + +00:07:45.860 --> 00:07:46.360 +there's some changes in Emacs over different + +00:07:48.940 --> 00:07:49.340 +versions that can affect your functions or + +00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:50.100 +your code. + +00:07:56.580 --> 00:07:56.720 +[Speaker 2]: They all run in parallel and so typically in + +00:08:00.580 --> 00:08:00.780 +under 60 seconds I think you've got all of + +00:08:03.960 --> 00:08:04.460 +them run so you've got pretty extensive + +00:08:08.860 --> 00:08:09.240 +testing which does catch interesting bugs + +00:08:09.760 --> 00:08:10.260 +here and there, right? + +00:08:13.320 --> 00:08:13.820 +[Speaker 0]: Yes, of course it does. + +00:08:18.060 --> 00:08:18.560 +I mean, you normally develop with 1 version + +00:08:20.280 --> 00:08:20.540 +and then you think everything is okay. + +00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:21.820 +But then when you're tested with the + +00:08:23.460 --> 00:08:23.960 +different versions, you find out that there + +00:08:26.080 --> 00:08:26.580 +are some changes and there are things you + +00:08:30.140 --> 00:08:30.400 +might not sort of keep track of what's + +00:08:34.340 --> 00:08:34.640 +happening also. So that's a way to get + +00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:38.940 +noticed that the core developers of Emacs + +00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:41.480 +have changed something that you sort of based + +00:08:44.380 --> 00:08:44.840 +your code on. Now I got another question + +00:08:47.900 --> 00:08:48.160 +here. Did you have to change hyperbole code + +00:08:50.580 --> 00:08:50.760 +and design to be more readily testable as you + +00:08:52.160 --> 00:08:52.660 +were increasing your test coverage? + +00:08:55.520 --> 00:08:56.020 +Well, we haven't done that to a lot, + +00:09:00.160 --> 00:09:00.320 +to a big degree, although I believe that that + +00:09:03.760 --> 00:09:04.260 +is an important thing for sort of the future + +00:09:06.020 --> 00:09:06.500 +to do that because some of the hyperbolic + +00:09:08.520 --> 00:09:08.720 +functions are very complicated and long and + +00:09:10.640 --> 00:09:11.140 +that makes testing them rather difficult. + +00:09:14.660 --> 00:09:14.900 +So, at a few places we have sort of broken up + +00:09:17.260 --> 00:09:17.720 +functions in smaller pieces so it'd be easier + +00:09:20.280 --> 00:09:20.660 +to do like unit tests of the different parts + +00:09:27.740 --> 00:09:27.980 +of it. But there's a lot of more work that + +00:09:28.680 --> 00:09:29.180 +has to be done there. + +00:09:33.820 --> 00:09:34.020 +[Speaker 2]: 1 of the nice things is you know the great + +00:09:36.760 --> 00:09:36.820 +environment in Lisp where we're able to do a + +00:09:40.520 --> 00:09:40.900 +lot of interactive bottom-up testing before + +00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:43.280 +we even get to lighting tech pieces. + +00:09:48.740 --> 00:09:49.140 +So it does tend to be more higher level bugs, + +00:09:51.140 --> 00:09:51.640 +I think, that get caught in cross-functional + +00:09:55.940 --> 00:09:56.100 +interaction. We had 1 recently that was an + +00:09:58.100 --> 00:09:58.600 +Emacs version change. It had been a function + +00:10:01.100 --> 00:10:01.600 +that had existed for a long time. + +00:10:03.340 --> 00:10:03.840 +It had an and rest in it, + +00:10:05.740 --> 00:10:06.240 +in its argument list, so it would assemble + +00:10:08.600 --> 00:10:09.100 +the list of arguments from individual + +00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:10.820 +arguments that you would give it, + +00:10:13.100 --> 00:10:13.600 +and they decided in a recent version, + +00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:15.700 +I think with Stefan's input, + +00:10:19.400 --> 00:10:19.840 +to change that to a list and allow the prior + +00:10:22.740 --> 00:10:22.900 +behavior, but it would issue a warning if you + +00:10:23.620 --> 00:10:24.060 +use the prior behavior. + +00:10:25.560 --> 00:10:25.840 +So all of a sudden, the way you were supposed + +00:10:27.180 --> 00:10:27.680 +to do it became semi-invalid. + +00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:30.940 +And so we started getting the warning, + +00:10:32.760 --> 00:10:33.040 +and we've tried to eliminate all those + +00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:36.060 +warnings in recent hyperbole developments. + +00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:37.620 +So we're like, what do we do? + +00:10:39.020 --> 00:10:39.440 +You know, because we wanted to be backward + +00:10:42.140 --> 00:10:42.640 +compatible to where you couldn't use a list. + +00:10:44.620 --> 00:10:45.120 +It required you to use individual arguments. + +00:10:48.380 --> 00:10:48.560 +And now it's sort of requiring you to do + +00:10:51.660 --> 00:10:51.820 +that. And all of that was caused by the + +00:10:52.940 --> 00:10:53.440 +automatic testing on it. + +00:11:08.680 --> 00:11:08.860 +So you said, Max, you were going to tell us + +00:11:12.740 --> 00:11:13.220 +what you learned. So what are the major + +00:11:15.368 --> 00:11:15.396 +things that you learned in doing all of this + +00:11:15.680 --> 00:11:16.180 +work? All of this work? + +00:11:26.520 --> 00:11:26.740 +[Speaker 0]: Well, I tried to cover some of it in the + +00:11:29.380 --> 00:11:29.800 +presentation, but as I was going along, + +00:11:33.420 --> 00:11:33.920 +the presentation became like twice as long as + +00:11:36.180 --> 00:11:36.680 +fitted into the time we had so I had to cut + +00:11:42.380 --> 00:11:42.880 +it out. But I think some of the core things + +00:11:44.340 --> 00:11:44.840 +still is in the presentation. + +00:11:49.560 --> 00:11:50.060 +From a personal perspective, + +00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:52.940 +And this might not be hard to realize, + +00:11:56.960 --> 00:11:57.460 +but forcing yourself to test functions, + +00:12:02.900 --> 00:12:03.060 +test code really forces you to understand the + +00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:05.280 +code a little bit better in a way that sort + +00:12:07.300 --> 00:12:07.400 +of makes it easier than just to read the + +00:12:11.460 --> 00:12:11.960 +code. I don't know how it is for the rest + +00:12:13.780 --> 00:12:13.980 +listening to this, but for me it works so + +00:12:16.580 --> 00:12:17.080 +that if I just read the code then I don't + +00:12:20.140 --> 00:12:20.320 +sort of become as sharp as I should be but if + +00:12:22.500 --> 00:12:22.640 +I try to write the test case for it then I + +00:12:24.680 --> 00:12:24.880 +really need to understand better of all the + +00:12:27.660 --> 00:12:28.160 +edge cases and all the sort of states and etc + +00:12:30.060 --> 00:12:30.320 +that is involved and I think that's That's + +00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:33.200 +what's sort of 1 of the learning things I + +00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:35.280 +wanted to communicate as well that I don't + +00:12:38.940 --> 00:12:39.080 +think I covered in detail in the + +00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:41.980 +presentation. Maybe all this, + +00:12:48.060 --> 00:12:48.340 +but try it. 1 other sort of more from the fun + +00:12:50.740 --> 00:12:51.000 +side is that I really think it's fun to write + +00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:55.440 +the test. So if you haven't tests in your + +00:12:58.020 --> 00:12:58.520 +package, you should start doing that because + +00:13:05.740 --> 00:13:06.080 +it is fun. It might feel like some extra + +00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:08.580 +work, but it really pays off in the long run, + +00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:10.760 +especially if you have it in like a pipeline + +00:13:12.520 --> 00:13:12.980 +and where you can run it regularly when you + +00:13:13.940 --> 00:13:14.380 +do new commits, et cetera. + +00:13:16.560 --> 00:13:17.060 +So, I mean, that's maybe obvious from, + +00:13:19.160 --> 00:13:19.440 +if you look from the commercial side or your + +00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:21.340 +work side to do it like that. + +00:13:22.260 --> 00:13:22.660 +But even for your hobby project, + +00:13:26.260 --> 00:13:26.760 +it can be very sort of pay off really well. + +00:13:32.900 --> 00:13:33.160 +[Speaker 2]: It's worked really well when we're adding new + +00:13:35.020 --> 00:13:35.180 +functionality or we're changing some of the + +00:13:36.560 --> 00:13:37.060 +plumbing in the system. + +00:13:40.400 --> 00:13:40.580 +You know, you go and you do some surgery and + +00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:41.820 +then you run the tests. + +00:13:45.400 --> 00:13:45.900 +And sometimes 6 to 10 tests will fail. + +00:13:48.260 --> 00:13:48.420 +And you find there, you know, + +00:13:50.460 --> 00:13:50.660 +it tends to be they're all interconnected and + +00:13:52.920 --> 00:13:53.320 +it leads you back to the single source. + +00:13:56.660 --> 00:13:56.980 +You fix that and you know it could be an edge + +00:14:00.560 --> 00:14:00.760 +case and off by 1 or Sometimes it's an + +00:14:03.520 --> 00:14:03.800 +assumption about the way something is used + +00:14:05.980 --> 00:14:06.480 +and it's not actually always true. + +00:14:09.520 --> 00:14:10.020 +And so, Matt's just really good at + +00:14:13.540 --> 00:14:14.040 +identifying some of those scenarios and + +00:14:17.480 --> 00:14:17.980 +keeping us honest, I guess I would say. + +00:14:22.900 --> 00:14:23.400 +So I love, I run it as much as I before, + +00:14:26.400 --> 00:14:26.900 +you know, even before I commit something. + +00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:30.060 +So I get to see, you know, + +00:14:30.940 --> 00:14:31.440 +if anything has progressed. + +00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:39.920 +So yeah, I really recommend this process to + +00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:42.620 +people. I haven't seen it done. + +00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:46.080 +I don't think that, I don't know any other + +00:14:47.800 --> 00:14:48.300 +package that has done it to this level. + +00:14:51.560 --> 00:14:51.820 +And it's been working really great for us. + +00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:55.640 +And I think, well, we'll see too when we + +00:14:56.780 --> 00:14:57.280 +release to the general public. + +00:15:04.380 --> 00:15:04.540 +[Speaker 0]: But Bob, also, maybe the test part of + +00:15:06.400 --> 00:15:06.560 +different packages is not the first thing you + +00:15:08.900 --> 00:15:09.100 +look at. So I know there are packages that + +00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:11.380 +have testing, a lot of testing, + +00:15:13.860 --> 00:15:14.160 +but how much, much testing they have or not, + +00:15:16.060 --> 00:15:16.220 +I don't know. It's not what you normally look + +00:15:17.900 --> 00:15:18.400 +into when you look at someone's else code. + +00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:20.820 +You look maybe on the functionality side but + +00:15:22.760 --> 00:15:23.000 +not on how they've done the sort of the + +00:15:26.540 --> 00:15:26.760 +quality side. So there could be other + +00:15:28.780 --> 00:15:29.280 +packages out there that are well equipped. + +00:15:31.800 --> 00:15:32.300 +[Speaker 2]: I hope so. I hope so. + +00:15:39.860 --> 00:15:40.180 +[Speaker 0]: What's the craziest bug you found when + +00:15:44.700 --> 00:15:45.200 +writing these tests? Well, + +00:15:50.760 --> 00:15:50.940 +What springs to my mind just now is that we + +00:15:52.760 --> 00:15:52.960 +were doing some tests or I would do some + +00:15:55.920 --> 00:15:56.420 +tests for when you narrow, + +00:15:57.940 --> 00:15:58.440 +what do you say that? When you, + +00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:05.000 +in outlining, when you sort of compress + +00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:06.980 +things in an outline, so you just, + +00:16:08.540 --> 00:16:09.040 +sorry Bob, maybe you have it, + +00:16:12.100 --> 00:16:12.600 +[Speaker 2]: When you hide text. + +00:16:12.740 --> 00:16:13.240 +[Speaker 0]: What I'm looking for? Yeah, + +00:16:15.580 --> 00:16:15.920 +when you hide. So I was doing some cursor + +00:16:17.780 --> 00:16:17.980 +movement over that. And I always assume that + +00:16:22.540 --> 00:16:22.900 +if you do like a prefix argument to like a + +00:16:23.800 --> 00:16:24.240 +simple cursor movement, + +00:16:26.420 --> 00:16:26.920 +like control F moving 1 character position, + +00:16:28.340 --> 00:16:28.840 +and you would give it the, + +00:16:36.580 --> 00:16:37.080 +and then the prefix, like you want to move + +00:16:39.140 --> 00:16:39.640 +like 2 or 3 positions, + +00:16:43.040 --> 00:16:43.140 +you would do like control U 3 and then + +00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:44.740 +control F and you move 3. + +00:16:46.560 --> 00:16:46.960 +I always assumed that that would be exactly + +00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:49.440 +the same as if you just hit the key control F + +00:16:50.740 --> 00:16:51.240 +3 times, but it's not. + +00:16:53.160 --> 00:16:53.560 +So it's not the bug, it's a feature, + +00:16:54.620 --> 00:16:55.080 +but that was the craziest thing. + +00:16:58.180 --> 00:16:58.360 +I spent the night trying to figure out why + +00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:01.000 +our code was wrong, but It turns out that's + +00:17:03.560 --> 00:17:04.060 +how Emacs behaves. Try it out yourself. + +00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:08.300 +Try to move over the 3 dots at the end of + +00:17:09.140 --> 00:17:09.640 +that and see what happens. + +00:17:14.060 --> 00:17:14.240 +Do it with cursor hitting the key or using a + +00:17:16.260 --> 00:17:16.680 +prefix argument and you see it behaves + +00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:19.220 +differently. That was the craziest thing. + +00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:22.339 +I think there was some other crazy thing or + +00:17:24.280 --> 00:17:24.480 +deep learning also, but I can't come up with + +00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:26.760 +it at the moment. So maybe I can write it in + +00:17:27.900 --> 00:17:28.400 +the Q&A later. + +00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:31.440 +[Speaker 1]: I think we're out of time on the stream, + +00:17:33.360 --> 00:17:33.600 +but people are welcome to join Mats and Bob + +00:17:35.280 --> 00:17:35.640 +here on BigBlueButton to further discuss + +00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:36.980 +this. Thank you both. + +00:17:38.674 --> 00:17:38.792 +[Speaker 0]: Okay, thank you. Thanks, + +00:17:46.100 --> 00:17:46.600 +Makaay. Thank you. I don't know, + +00:17:48.740 --> 00:17:49.240 +Is it only me and Bob here? + +00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:51.180 +So Bob, do you want to say something? + +00:17:57.440 --> 00:17:57.940 +[Speaker 2]: Well, I think it's been a great day. + +00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:01.220 +And I'm glad we did this. + +00:18:02.280 --> 00:18:02.780 +It takes a lot of energy. + +00:18:15.140 --> 00:18:15.640 +I'm just really excited about the progress + +00:18:20.580 --> 00:18:20.740 +that this, and we're actually doing a lot of + +00:18:23.940 --> 00:18:24.160 +QA at work and my professional software work + +00:18:28.500 --> 00:18:28.840 +and looking at you know how we can do more + +00:18:32.980 --> 00:18:33.480 +test driven development and so everybody's + +00:18:35.980 --> 00:18:36.200 +talking about this you know we've got AI over + +00:18:37.540 --> 00:18:38.040 +here that can generate test cases. + +00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:40.700 +But, you know, strangely enough, + +00:18:43.100 --> 00:18:43.380 +with the rapidity of development and web + +00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:47.220 +applications, I think the level of testing + +00:18:50.140 --> 00:18:50.280 +has gone down in recent years compared to + +00:18:51.500 --> 00:18:51.780 +where it used to be, right? + +00:18:53.040 --> 00:18:53.540 +Because the pace has gone up. + +00:18:57.340 --> 00:18:57.840 +And so I think it's starting to turn again + +00:18:58.740 --> 00:18:59.240 +where people are saying, + +00:19:01.940 --> 00:19:02.440 +we can't just release crap into the + +00:19:08.120 --> 00:19:08.620 +Webisphere and we have to better ourselves. + +00:19:13.620 --> 00:19:13.820 +And with all these advanced tool sets that + +00:19:16.100 --> 00:19:16.600 +you have, that you can do CICD testing, + +00:19:19.860 --> 00:19:20.180 +you know, I just, I just see it coming + +00:19:21.900 --> 00:19:22.100 +around, you know, as people develop new + +00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:24.160 +things. So That's kind of exciting to me + +00:19:26.980 --> 00:19:27.480 +because I came from a manufacturing culture + +00:19:30.300 --> 00:19:30.780 +originally where we, our company actually + +00:19:33.800 --> 00:19:34.300 +started a lot of the manufacturing quality + +00:19:37.420 --> 00:19:37.920 +efforts that you saw in Japan and elsewhere + +00:19:40.600 --> 00:19:40.740 +in America for a long time and that was you + +00:19:42.040 --> 00:19:42.540 +know entirely through testing. + +00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:47.020 +We used to just build incredible test cases + +00:19:49.120 --> 00:19:49.320 +because we were combining software with + +00:19:51.100 --> 00:19:51.380 +hardware. And if, you know, + +00:19:53.460 --> 00:19:53.600 +the hardware doesn't work and you ship a + +00:19:55.080 --> 00:19:55.520 +million units, you're, + +00:19:57.340 --> 00:19:57.840 +you're in trouble. So, + +00:20:00.260 --> 00:20:00.760 +that was just something we had to do. + +00:20:04.280 --> 00:20:04.780 +And so it's nice to start to see that curve + +00:20:07.020 --> 00:20:07.520 +come around. And I think, + +00:20:10.380 --> 00:20:10.880 +you know, Matt Vance is very modest, + +00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:16.920 +but I think he's really the 1 that started us + +00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:20.580 +down this path and really made it into a + +00:20:24.620 --> 00:20:24.840 +reality. So everybody else just gets to + +00:20:25.760 --> 00:20:26.260 +benefit from that work. + +00:20:27.540 --> 00:20:28.040 +So thanks. + +00:20:32.760 --> 00:20:33.260 +[Speaker 1]: That's awesome. + +00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:40.460 +[Speaker 0]: Thanks. Okay. Yeah. So if there's nothing + +00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:43.520 +more here, then maybe we should just close + +00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:45.940 +this and I go over to write in the etherpad + +00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:48.460 +the replies we had. + +00:20:51.900 --> 00:20:52.120 +[Speaker 1]: Right, yeah, I think, let's see, + +00:20:53.520 --> 00:20:53.760 +I see 1 other person here, + +00:20:55.080 --> 00:20:55.580 +I believe Ihor just joined us. + +00:20:58.780 --> 00:20:59.060 +Yeah. Yeah, so if you do want to discuss with + +00:21:00.220 --> 00:21:00.480 +Mats and Bob, you're welcome to, + +00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:02.700 +otherwise, yeah, we can close the room now. + +00:21:05.800 --> 00:21:06.020 +[Speaker 3]: Well, I think I missed most of the talk + +00:21:06.900 --> 00:21:07.400 +because I had power outage, + +00:21:12.180 --> 00:21:12.440 +but the part I heard was about the mock + +00:21:16.860 --> 00:21:17.220 +library. And you mentioned that you don't + +00:21:20.200 --> 00:21:20.700 +like CL-let, but instead you use mock. + +00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:29.800 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I was more saying that you have to do a + +00:21:31.560 --> 00:21:32.040 +lot more work when you use the CL letdef. + +00:21:34.540 --> 00:21:34.780 +It's for more ambitious and maybe more + +00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:37.500 +complicated cases where you want to really + +00:21:38.840 --> 00:21:39.340 +make a new implementation, + +00:21:41.940 --> 00:21:42.440 +test implementation. If you use the mock, + +00:21:44.380 --> 00:21:44.880 +you get a lot of things out of the box, + +00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:47.940 +verifying that you actually, + +00:21:50.820 --> 00:21:51.040 +like the mock was actually called for + +00:21:53.320 --> 00:21:53.820 +instance, whereas if you do with the CLLatf, + +00:21:56.520 --> 00:21:56.780 +you would have to take correct track of that + +00:22:02.020 --> 00:22:02.520 +yourself. And so, so a lot of more work. + +00:22:03.760 --> 00:22:04.260 +Oh yeah. + +00:22:07.940 --> 00:22:08.200 +[Speaker 3]: I'm saying that most of the time CLLess is + +00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:10.220 +used for simple cases actually. + +00:22:12.320 --> 00:22:12.820 +Because, just for example, + +00:22:15.100 --> 00:22:15.600 +the function always returns the same. + +00:22:17.980 --> 00:22:18.420 +And it tends to be simple lambda that ignores + +00:22:19.040 --> 00:22:19.540 +all the input arguments. + +00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:23.480 +So that's really trivial most of the time but + +00:22:25.520 --> 00:22:25.920 +I actually thought the opposite that mock is + +00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:28.140 +supposed to be used for non-trivial cases. + +00:22:32.280 --> 00:22:32.520 +[Speaker 0]: Sorry, what was the question? + +00:22:35.280 --> 00:22:35.780 +Mock was supposed to be used for non-trivial. + +00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:48.180 +Yeah I mean I don't know how to explain this. + +00:22:50.140 --> 00:22:50.640 +I mean, CLF can be used for non-trivial + +00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:54.840 +definitely. You can define then any behavior + +00:22:56.180 --> 00:22:56.680 +you want. You can write your own function, + +00:22:58.440 --> 00:22:58.660 +but you need to keep track of whether that + +00:22:59.620 --> 00:23:00.100 +function is called or not, + +00:23:06.260 --> 00:23:06.380 +for instance. So you have to make note of + +00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:08.940 +that the function was called so you can fire + +00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:12.800 +sort of an error in case your function wasn't + +00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:17.440 +called because that would be 1 error case. + +00:23:20.660 --> 00:23:20.860 +[Speaker 3]: So you mean the mock fires an error if the + +00:23:22.580 --> 00:23:23.080 +mocked function was actually not called? + +00:23:30.060 --> 00:23:30.560 +[Speaker 0]: Yes, it does. Yes. So if your assumptions, + +00:23:33.900 --> 00:23:34.120 +you sort of document with the mock also your + +00:23:37.080 --> 00:23:37.220 +assumptions how your code is going to be + +00:23:40.020 --> 00:23:40.380 +called. And if those are wrong, + +00:23:41.120 --> 00:23:41.540 +you will get an error. + +00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:44.060 +So you would, so if the implementation would + +00:23:44.840 --> 00:23:45.100 +maybe change, for instance, + +00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:47.140 +and not call the thing you're mocking, + +00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:50.960 +then you will notice that. + +00:23:53.100 --> 00:23:53.560 +But if you see a letdef, + +00:23:54.840 --> 00:23:55.040 +then you will have to keep track of that + +00:23:57.560 --> 00:23:58.060 +yourself. Okay, I see. + +00:23:58.260 --> 00:23:58.760 +I see. + +00:24:01.240 --> 00:24:01.740 +[Speaker 3]: And you know, our mode also uses a lot of + +00:24:09.340 --> 00:24:09.620 +test. In our mode, we have a lot of tests + +00:24:13.940 --> 00:24:14.440 +[Speaker 0]: Ah, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure I have. + +00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:16.400 +[Speaker 3]: also. We rely on CLLatF for, + +00:24:19.220 --> 00:24:19.720 +we don't use third-party libraries at all. + +00:24:22.140 --> 00:24:22.640 +[Speaker 0]: Oh, you use CLLatF, okay. + +00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:27.180 +Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At First I found it very + +00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:29.700 +powerful to use that, but then I sort of, + +00:24:32.120 --> 00:24:32.320 +I learned more about how we can use the + +00:24:34.340 --> 00:24:34.840 +mocking library for what I needed. + +00:24:36.900 --> 00:24:37.400 +And I prefer that at the moment. + +00:24:40.560 --> 00:24:41.060 +[Speaker 3]: I see, that is interesting. + +00:24:42.500 --> 00:24:42.700 +Because I had seen it, + +00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:45.600 +but I didn't consider that it's gonna be + +00:24:46.800 --> 00:24:47.300 +useful even in simple cases. + +00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:53.140 +[Speaker 0]: It has its limitations. + +00:24:58.260 --> 00:24:58.760 +So it's like life, how you turn depends. + +00:25:03.740 --> 00:25:04.020 +But maybe I should look more into the org + +00:25:05.880 --> 00:25:06.100 +mode and the test case to learn more about + +00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:07.980 +that. So thanks for pointing that out. + +00:25:14.620 --> 00:25:15.120 +[Speaker 3]: We are trying to cover as much as we can. + +00:25:17.520 --> 00:25:17.740 +It's almost impossible for org. + +00:25:20.500 --> 00:25:21.000 +But yeah, we keep adding more tests. + +00:25:22.780 --> 00:25:23.280 +[Speaker 0]: That's great. + +00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:53.200 +Someone's typing. I don't know. + +00:25:54.340 --> 00:25:54.840 +Any more questions? No? + +00:26:01.060 --> 00:26:01.560 +Okay, then I'll go back and try to document + +00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:05.360 +this in the etherpad. Thank you everybody for + +00:26:08.860 --> 00:26:09.160 +[Speaker 1]: Thank you guys. Great work. + +00:26:09.400 --> 00:26:09.900 +[Speaker 0]: joining. Great. Thank you. + +00:26:11.100 --> 00:26:11.600 +Take care. Bye-bye. + +00:26:15.060 --> 00:26:15.560 +[Speaker 1]: Take care. Bye. Silence. diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-uni--authoring-and-presenting-university-courses-with-emacs-and-a-full-libre-software-stack--james-howell--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-uni--authoring-and-presenting-university-courses-with-emacs-and-a-full-libre-software-stack--james-howell--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..11cda190 --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-uni--authoring-and-presenting-university-courses-with-emacs-and-a-full-libre-software-stack--james-howell--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,1262 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:01.680 --> 00:00:01.880 +[Speaker 0]: And he can hear us. Can you perhaps do it for + +00:00:03.679 --> 00:00:03.760 +me? Great. The little angels in the + +00:00:04.640 --> 00:00:05.140 +background have done it for me. + +00:00:07.299 --> 00:00:07.759 +So now, finally, that everything is ready. + +00:00:08.559 --> 00:00:09.059 +Hi, James. How are you doing? + +00:00:10.559 --> 00:00:11.059 +[Speaker 1]: Good morning. Hello. + +00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:15.600 +[Speaker 0]: Well, thank you for your talk. + +00:00:17.160 --> 00:00:17.440 +And sorry for the little hiccup at the middle + +00:00:20.080 --> 00:00:20.380 +we had to put out a fire with the audio + +00:00:22.060 --> 00:00:22.560 +going out in the middle and sorry about this. + +00:00:23.560 --> 00:00:24.060 +[Speaker 1]: It's no trouble. + +00:00:28.220 --> 00:00:28.680 +[Speaker 0]: So James, you've obviously told us about your + +00:00:30.060 --> 00:00:30.220 +very fancy setup with the green screen and + +00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:32.800 +I'm sad to see that you haven't put out the + +00:00:35.440 --> 00:00:35.589 +green screen for your BBB session right now. + +00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:37.040 +Do you have it in the background just for + +00:00:39.880 --> 00:00:40.380 +you? Right, okay. It wasn't that far. + +00:00:43.860 --> 00:00:44.180 +Great. No. So, I'm just going to ask. + +00:00:47.260 --> 00:00:47.440 +So, this is the first live Q&A that we have + +00:00:49.080 --> 00:00:49.320 +for this session, so things might be coming + +00:00:51.480 --> 00:00:51.600 +into place, so pardon us if we take a little + +00:00:54.239 --> 00:00:54.340 +bit of time to put the questions on the + +00:00:55.320 --> 00:00:55.820 +screen and all of this. + +00:00:58.080 --> 00:00:58.260 +What I'm gonna do, I'm just gonna load up the + +00:01:02.720 --> 00:01:02.800 +pad. I would invite James to also open the + +00:01:03.820 --> 00:01:04.200 +pad on his hand. Sorry, + +00:01:05.580 --> 00:01:05.740 +I've got people talking in my ears and it's + +00:01:07.240 --> 00:01:07.740 +been a while since I've last had this. + +00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:11.869 +Okay, so opening the talks right now. + +00:01:13.780 --> 00:01:14.280 +Opening the pad, if I can find it. + +00:01:20.440 --> 00:01:20.740 +Open the pad. Okay. Have you got the pad open + +00:01:22.360 --> 00:01:22.860 +[Speaker 1]: So I can read the question. + +00:01:24.020 --> 00:01:24.280 +[Speaker 0]: on your end, James? Okay, + +00:01:26.720 --> 00:01:27.220 +great. Opening it on my end as well. + +00:01:28.380 --> 00:01:28.660 +What I'm going to do, folks, + +00:01:30.300 --> 00:01:30.800 +I see some of you have joined us on, + +00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:32.700 +if I show you, some of the people that have + +00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:34.340 +joined us in the BBB room. + +00:01:35.240 --> 00:01:35.540 +You can join us as well, + +00:01:37.860 --> 00:01:38.260 +all the links are on the talk page or on ISE, + +00:01:39.140 --> 00:01:39.520 +you can find it very easily. + +00:01:41.960 --> 00:01:42.240 +But what I'm going to start doing is first + +00:01:43.660 --> 00:01:43.860 +taking questions in the other pad because + +00:01:45.540 --> 00:01:45.700 +it's a little faster to ask questions like + +00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:48.080 +this, and then as soon as we've finished, + +00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:49.900 +feel free to unmute yourself and ask your + +00:01:54.020 --> 00:01:54.160 +questions. All right, so I've got some + +00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:57.140 +reactions about OBS being cool and yes, + +00:01:59.060 --> 00:01:59.180 +both James and I will be able to tell you + +00:02:00.600 --> 00:02:01.100 +that it's very cool. We do very fancy stuff + +00:02:05.540 --> 00:02:05.640 +like when I need to talk to production in the + +00:02:07.420 --> 00:02:07.540 +background and all the stuff obviously that + +00:02:09.020 --> 00:02:09.160 +James has been able to show you with a green + +00:02:12.600 --> 00:02:12.800 +screen. So I don't see a whole lot of + +00:02:15.780 --> 00:02:16.020 +questions so far. I see a lot of reactions on + +00:02:17.420 --> 00:02:17.780 +publishing lectures book and a classic + +00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:19.780 +example is John Kitchens obviously. + +00:02:24.020 --> 00:02:24.240 +Pedagogy first developments macros are a cool + +00:02:28.340 --> 00:02:28.820 +idea. Okay questions so how do you overlap + +00:02:30.860 --> 00:02:31.360 +yourself with a presentation it's so cool. + +00:02:39.540 --> 00:02:40.040 +[Speaker 1]: It's quite simple OBS provides filters for + +00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:42.480 +you can have a separate filter for each video + +00:02:44.260 --> 00:02:44.760 +feed. And 1 of the filters that's available + +00:02:47.200 --> 00:02:47.520 +is chroma key. You just choose a color to + +00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:52.040 +make transparent and just make sure that the + +00:02:55.640 --> 00:02:56.140 +webcam is at the top of the composition. + +00:03:00.660 --> 00:03:00.900 +And the thing that surprised me the most was + +00:03:04.920 --> 00:03:05.380 +how quickly my brain was able to mirror + +00:03:07.200 --> 00:03:07.360 +everything and control my body from a + +00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:10.740 +separate point of view like the way weather + +00:03:15.200 --> 00:03:15.360 +broadcasts are done. It took seconds to be + +00:03:16.720 --> 00:03:16.920 +able to do that. Well, + +00:03:19.700 --> 00:03:20.200 +and now I have years of practice because that + +00:03:22.720 --> 00:03:22.960 +setup that you saw that I used to record this + +00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:27.460 +video, I used for years during the pandemic + +00:03:30.040 --> 00:03:30.540 +for 4 or 5 semesters to, + +00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:33.820 +because my courses are all have 2, + +00:03:36.480 --> 00:03:36.900 +3, 400 students, except for the English class + +00:03:40.160 --> 00:03:40.460 +which has you know 30 students and so during + +00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:43.700 +the pandemic and even after lockdowns were no + +00:03:45.780 --> 00:03:46.020 +longer mandated I taught online just because + +00:03:48.180 --> 00:03:48.320 +I didn't want to have so many students in the + +00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:49.500 +room at the same time. + +00:03:53.640 --> 00:03:54.120 +So I've yeah I'm it I have a lot of practice + +00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:54.860 +doing that. + +00:03:57.780 --> 00:03:58.200 +[Speaker 0]: But it pays off because it looks so natural + +00:03:59.960 --> 00:04:00.140 +you know it feels like it's the same thing + +00:04:02.200 --> 00:04:02.660 +with weather casters you know it sounds very + +00:04:04.440 --> 00:04:04.700 +it looks very easy to do but it also takes + +00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:05.780 +quite a bit of practice. + +00:04:08.220 --> 00:04:08.400 +1 of the things that you also need to + +00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:10.160 +remember if you're using a chroma key that + +00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:11.880 +James has explained is that you need to have + +00:04:14.380 --> 00:04:14.680 +very good lighting basically for the color to + +00:04:16.320 --> 00:04:16.640 +pop out in the background and for your body + +00:04:17.779 --> 00:04:18.279 +to be easily highlightable. + +00:04:20.760 --> 00:04:21.260 +Okay, were you finished with this question? + +00:04:24.440 --> 00:04:24.940 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, let's take another 1. + +00:04:28.020 --> 00:04:28.520 +[Speaker 0]: Sure. So how do you deal with video in Beam? + +00:04:30.060 --> 00:04:30.560 +I found it so hard to do that. + +00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:33.100 +PPT on the other end is easier to achieve. + +00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:41.520 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so remember that the slides get + +00:04:46.420 --> 00:04:46.920 +produced from Org Mode as PDFs. + +00:04:49.820 --> 00:04:50.040 +Well, and in fact, even before when I was + +00:04:52.580 --> 00:04:52.740 +using other software to produce slides I + +00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:55.760 +produced them as PDFs precisely because I + +00:04:58.440 --> 00:04:58.580 +wanted to be able to mark them up on on the + +00:05:03.960 --> 00:05:04.160 +screen with the stylus And so I don't do + +00:05:07.580 --> 00:05:07.840 +video in the slides. I use OBS to switch from + +00:05:09.900 --> 00:05:10.400 +static slides that I mark up with the stylus + +00:05:14.540 --> 00:05:14.800 +over to some kind of video viewer and then + +00:05:17.320 --> 00:05:17.820 +back. And again that's how I can use Firefox. + +00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:21.860 +I use OBS to switch between Firefox and video + +00:05:26.820 --> 00:05:27.040 +and the Shornal++ program where I can mark up + +00:05:31.280 --> 00:05:31.780 +slides. So those functionalities are... + +00:05:35.140 --> 00:05:35.320 +That's why I use different software and pull + +00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:37.980 +it all together with OBS so that I can have + +00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:41.740 +lots of functional flexibility. + +00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:47.660 +[Speaker 0]: Great. Do you ever use things like + +00:05:50.320 --> 00:05:50.820 +org-present and stay for the PowerPoint + +00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:53.200 +slides? I'm not sure exactly how to read this + +00:05:54.340 --> 00:05:54.520 +particular question, but at least we can + +00:05:56.120 --> 00:05:56.520 +focus on org-present. Are you familiar with + +00:05:56.820 --> 00:05:57.320 +what it is? + +00:06:00.060 --> 00:06:00.560 +[Speaker 1]: I've played around with org-present, + +00:06:06.740 --> 00:06:07.240 +And again, I guess you could use OrgPresent + +00:06:11.440 --> 00:06:11.680 +to show images and to show headings as + +00:06:16.820 --> 00:06:17.220 +slides. But again, Because it's such a + +00:06:20.440 --> 00:06:20.640 +crucial functionality to be able to mark them + +00:06:25.180 --> 00:06:25.360 +up with a stylus. I didn't really show this + +00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:27.180 +very much, but I also highlight things the + +00:06:29.320 --> 00:06:29.600 +way I would highlight using a laser pointer + +00:06:31.960 --> 00:06:32.460 +on the screen. And again, + +00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:37.380 +I don't see Emacs being able to do that for + +00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:39.060 +another couple of generations. + +00:06:43.220 --> 00:06:43.540 +So really the only thing I use Emacs for + +00:06:48.900 --> 00:06:49.400 +during presentations is to narrow headings + +00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:52.100 +that we can focus on particular text + +00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:53.100 +excerpts. + +00:06:59.020 --> 00:06:59.180 +[Speaker 0]: Right, yeah. A lot of our presentations at + +00:07:00.060 --> 00:07:00.380 +EmacsConf are usually, + +00:07:01.320 --> 00:07:01.720 +especially the Org Mode ones, + +00:07:02.520 --> 00:07:03.020 +are done with Org Present. + +00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:08.980 +Sorry, I had someone talk to me in the ear. + +00:07:10.960 --> 00:07:11.460 +You know the problem with EmacsConf is that + +00:07:13.620 --> 00:07:13.780 +every year, you have to relearn a lot of + +00:07:15.840 --> 00:07:16.340 +skills, and by the time we finish, + +00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:19.220 +by Sunday evening, we are masters of it. + +00:07:21.460 --> 00:07:21.600 +And then we forget everything by the time the + +00:07:22.260 --> 00:07:22.760 +next year comes around. + +00:07:24.440 --> 00:07:24.940 +What I was going to say is that org-present + +00:07:28.660 --> 00:07:29.160 +is often used by people inside Emacs, + +00:07:30.440 --> 00:07:30.940 +Conf, presenting about org-mode. + +00:07:32.660 --> 00:07:32.780 +But yeah, whenever you need to do something a + +00:07:34.200 --> 00:07:34.360 +little more visual, it gets a little more + +00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:36.500 +complicated. Some people have tried to do + +00:07:39.020 --> 00:07:39.160 +fancy stuff with SVG, which is probably the + +00:07:40.640 --> 00:07:41.140 +path forward for this type of stuff. + +00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:43.180 +But yeah, if you need to draw, + +00:07:43.940 --> 00:07:44.440 +if you need to highlight, + +00:07:45.820 --> 00:07:46.320 +it is pretty complicated. + +00:07:48.220 --> 00:07:48.340 +Perhaps something that you might want to be + +00:07:50.500 --> 00:07:50.980 +interested, James, in checking out is PDF + +00:07:53.740 --> 00:07:54.240 +Tools, which is a way to open up a PDF in + +00:07:59.100 --> 00:07:59.480 +Emacs. And this allows you to have basic PDF + +00:08:01.320 --> 00:08:01.560 +annotations, like putting a little bit of a + +00:08:03.960 --> 00:08:04.200 +Nikon on it. Perhaps you've already played + +00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:04.860 +with it. + +00:08:09.440 --> 00:08:09.940 +[Speaker 1]: I have used that. PDF Tools is an incredible + +00:08:14.260 --> 00:08:14.540 +package but until it allows me to make a mark + +00:08:17.860 --> 00:08:18.260 +on the screen that shows up in a video + +00:08:20.540 --> 00:08:21.040 +compositor. It's not going to replace + +00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:21.860 +Shornal. + +00:08:25.200 --> 00:08:25.440 +[Speaker 0]: Definitely. Alright, moving on to the next + +00:08:31.580 --> 00:08:31.592 +question. Is the triple-accolade syntax an + +00:08:31.682 --> 00:08:31.695 +[Speaker 2]: Org Mode core feature that I missed so + +00:08:31.760 --> 00:08:32.220 +[Speaker 0]: far, or did you program that? + +00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:33.580 +And thank you for the great talk. + +00:08:38.100 --> 00:08:38.360 +[Speaker 1]: Thank you very much. No, + +00:08:42.700 --> 00:08:43.200 +it's just part of all of the export backends. + +00:08:44.860 --> 00:08:45.060 +Actually, I think the way it works is it + +00:08:46.560 --> 00:08:47.040 +precedes all of the export backends. + +00:08:49.820 --> 00:08:50.280 +When you export, the first thing that happens + +00:08:51.880 --> 00:08:52.380 +is expansion of macros. + +00:08:55.680 --> 00:08:56.180 +And that's a built-in org mode feature. + +00:08:59.280 --> 00:08:59.760 +It's definitely beyond my Emacs Lisp powers + +00:09:01.160 --> 00:09:01.360 +to be able to have made something that + +00:09:06.440 --> 00:09:06.940 +powerful. That's right. + +00:09:08.040 --> 00:09:08.540 +I have come a long way. + +00:09:10.460 --> 00:09:10.760 +[Speaker 0]: For now, for now. You know, + +00:09:12.800 --> 00:09:12.980 +we always, you know, most of the people who + +00:09:14.680 --> 00:09:15.060 +show up to Emacs, especially talking about + +00:09:17.080 --> 00:09:17.300 +stuff that has to do with presentations or + +00:09:18.420 --> 00:09:18.900 +what they do in academia, + +00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:19.780 +you know, they always say, + +00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:22.440 +oh, but, you know, I couldn't have done all + +00:09:23.940 --> 00:09:24.280 +this, you know, it's just far away. + +00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:26.280 +And then they come back 1 year or 2 years + +00:09:27.660 --> 00:09:27.980 +later, and then, oh, I've made my entire + +00:09:29.540 --> 00:09:29.700 +library for presentation and stuff like this. + +00:09:32.800 --> 00:09:32.980 +So Be hopeful about what the future holds for + +00:09:34.760 --> 00:09:34.920 +you in terms of coming up with crazy new + +00:09:36.300 --> 00:09:36.800 +features for the entire ecosystem. + +00:09:38.560 --> 00:09:39.060 +[Speaker 1]: Well, let me tell you, + +00:09:42.040 --> 00:09:42.540 +since the pandemic, I have written, + +00:09:44.340 --> 00:09:44.700 +I wrote my first major mode. + +00:09:46.520 --> 00:09:47.020 +It's trivial, but it provides functionality + +00:09:49.580 --> 00:09:50.080 +that is very useful to me. + +00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:53.940 +And it's going to sound like I'm just trying + +00:09:54.760 --> 00:09:54.960 +to butter everyone up, + +00:09:57.620 --> 00:09:58.120 +but seeing a lot of the names in the IRC + +00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:01.860 +channel, people who have taught me so much on + +00:10:05.220 --> 00:10:05.640 +their YouTube channels and in their blog + +00:10:07.400 --> 00:10:07.900 +posts and on Reddit and on Mastodon. + +00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:12.220 +Without many of the people who are here today + +00:10:14.820 --> 00:10:15.320 +watching my talk, it's very fun to have + +00:10:17.920 --> 00:10:18.120 +people who have helped me learn so much about + +00:10:19.640 --> 00:10:20.140 +Emacs. So thanks to all of you. + +00:10:23.820 --> 00:10:24.140 +[Speaker 0]: Well, and yeah, and now you're becoming part + +00:10:26.940 --> 00:10:27.380 +of this crew of people inspiring others to do + +00:10:28.860 --> 00:10:29.180 +very much the same. So thank you for joining + +00:10:32.020 --> 00:10:32.520 +[Speaker 1]: Thank you very much. + +00:10:34.780 --> 00:10:35.020 +[Speaker 0]: the crew. Great. Moving on to the 2 last + +00:10:36.500 --> 00:10:36.660 +questions and then we'll open up the mic to + +00:10:37.400 --> 00:10:37.900 +other people on BigBlueButton. + +00:10:40.760 --> 00:10:40.920 +What kind of comparative feedback are + +00:10:42.280 --> 00:10:42.780 +students giving you regarding your approach? + +00:10:47.560 --> 00:10:48.060 +[Speaker 1]: Oh my gosh. Students were ready to, + +00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:49.620 +during the pandemic especially, + +00:10:54.100 --> 00:10:54.600 +when most of the courses were just being + +00:10:56.660 --> 00:10:56.820 +taught over Zoom by people sharing their + +00:10:56.820 --> 00:10:57.320 +screens. + +00:10:58.520 --> 00:10:58.660 +[Speaker 0]: Just a second, sorry, sorry for the + +00:10:59.440 --> 00:10:59.800 +interruption, very rude interruption, + +00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:01.040 +but I've got the intro for the next talk + +00:11:02.200 --> 00:11:02.440 +playing and I'm not sure what's going on. + +00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:03.620 +Give me just a second. + +00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:04.940 +Sasha? + +00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:20.340 +So... Yeah, I think it's started. + +00:11:37.020 --> 00:11:37.300 +Sure. I got the times wrong, + +00:11:38.900 --> 00:11:39.100 +apparently, because of the little delay we + +00:11:41.880 --> 00:11:42.380 +had getting the audio fixed up. + +00:11:44.220 --> 00:11:44.720 +The good news is that we're still recording + +00:11:46.400 --> 00:11:46.680 +the talk right now and we still have James + +00:11:47.560 --> 00:11:47.800 +around. Obviously, James, + +00:11:50.280 --> 00:11:50.440 +you're no longer on being broadcast on + +00:11:53.040 --> 00:11:53.440 +General, but if you want to keep answering + +00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:55.520 +questions or if you want to, + +00:11:57.240 --> 00:11:57.360 +anyone in the room right now wants to ask you + +00:11:58.440 --> 00:11:58.940 +questions, feel free to do so. + +00:12:00.920 --> 00:12:01.080 +I'm going to need to hop off because I need + +00:12:02.560 --> 00:12:03.060 +to get other things ready for the next talks, + +00:12:04.820 --> 00:12:05.320 +[Speaker 1]: But James, + +00:12:08.860 --> 00:12:09.120 +[Speaker 0]: sadly. great. And sorry, + +00:12:10.040 --> 00:12:10.380 +I'm a little tense, obviously, + +00:12:12.680 --> 00:12:13.180 +because I was not expecting this to happen. + +00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:16.160 +And that led to a very abrupt end to this + +00:12:18.340 --> 00:12:18.480 +discussion. But people afterwards on + +00:12:21.860 --> 00:12:21.980 +emacsmo.org slash 2023 slash talks will be + +00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:24.020 +able to find all the content here. + +00:12:24.920 --> 00:12:25.420 +So I'll have to leave now. + +00:12:26.660 --> 00:12:26.980 +Thank you so much, James, + +00:12:29.020 --> 00:12:29.180 +for doing the difficult task of opening up + +00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:31.980 +emacs-conf, And I'll probably see you later. + +00:12:34.660 --> 00:12:35.160 +[Speaker 1]: Thank you, Leo. Bye-bye. + +00:12:54.380 --> 00:12:54.880 +[Speaker 3]: On your, the external, + +00:12:59.920 --> 00:13:00.340 +the journal You were, you, + +00:13:03.040 --> 00:13:03.520 +you were using the tablet as a monitor, + +00:13:04.540 --> 00:13:05.040 +right? Touchscreen monitor, + +00:13:05.380 --> 00:13:05.880 +what's that? + +00:13:07.160 --> 00:13:07.480 +[Speaker 1]: program. Yes. That's exactly right. + +00:13:10.040 --> 00:13:10.540 +So it's a tablet, so it has a touchscreen. + +00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:15.580 +And so basically the functionality that that + +00:13:20.220 --> 00:13:20.560 +program provides is to be able to just mark + +00:13:21.660 --> 00:13:22.160 +up PDFs with a stylus, + +00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:25.280 +you know, in the way that you would use any + +00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:30.640 +other tablet. And to be able to take that + +00:13:32.920 --> 00:13:33.420 +video signal and put it into another machine. + +00:13:35.640 --> 00:13:36.100 +That was the that was the key. + +00:13:36.900 --> 00:13:37.400 +That's the killer app. + +00:13:41.460 --> 00:13:41.940 +[Speaker 3]: I've thought about grabbing 1 for the purpose + +00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:45.420 +of like changing my laptop into a tablet to + +00:13:47.640 --> 00:13:48.140 +read manga, browse the web, + +00:13:50.860 --> 00:13:51.020 +and I'm kind of curious if it works well like + +00:13:53.100 --> 00:13:53.600 +as a wireless monitor with a tablet? + +00:13:59.820 --> 00:14:00.060 +Or how well it like you can use Emacs with it + +00:14:04.020 --> 00:14:04.200 +in a tablet mode? Or were you just or you + +00:14:04.400 --> 00:14:04.900 +just use + +00:14:11.680 --> 00:14:12.040 +[Speaker 1]: the tablet that I use is this is it it's just + +00:14:14.820 --> 00:14:15.020 +the Microsoft Surface and so it comes with a + +00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:18.700 +keyboard So you can take the keyboard off. + +00:14:22.760 --> 00:14:23.260 +But I use it with the keyboard as well. + +00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:25.740 +And I just. + +00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:31.500 +[Speaker 3]: You're cutting off right now. + +00:14:33.680 --> 00:14:34.180 +Audio. + +00:14:45.660 --> 00:14:46.160 +Your audio is cutting off right now. + +00:15:31.740 --> 00:15:32.240 +How about now? Now I can hear you. + +00:15:33.820 --> 00:15:33.960 +[Speaker 1]: How about now? I bumped the mute button on + +00:15:37.420 --> 00:15:37.740 +the mic. Yeah, so again, + +00:15:38.680 --> 00:15:38.940 +this is... I'm trying to figure out which + +00:15:41.020 --> 00:15:41.520 +[Speaker 3]: of the 16 mute buttons you used. + +00:15:45.700 --> 00:15:46.200 +[Speaker 1]: It's just the Surface Pro 3 that I got used. + +00:15:52.920 --> 00:15:53.300 +And it runs Emacs, I mean it runs GNU Linux + +00:15:58.740 --> 00:15:58.980 +really well. And the trouble is that the hard + +00:16:01.900 --> 00:16:02.220 +drive, you know, the SSD drive is small and + +00:16:06.260 --> 00:16:06.420 +the RAM is small, but it works for the + +00:16:09.340 --> 00:16:09.640 +purposes. Basically, if I had a couple + +00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:13.260 +thousand dollars, I could probably buy a + +00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:16.560 +touch screen machine or I could run + +00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:19.200 +everything on it and do the streaming and do + +00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:25.460 +the video capture and do the PDF markup. + +00:16:27.980 --> 00:16:28.480 +But since both of these are so, + +00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:31.960 +the hardware that I use is so old and cheap + +00:16:33.640 --> 00:16:33.840 +and weak, I'd have to split it across 2 + +00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:34.340 +machines. + +00:16:37.160 --> 00:16:37.660 +[Speaker 3]: There's also a beauty in making the stuff, + +00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:40.120 +having specific purposes for specific things + +00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:44.160 +where it's just not, yeah, + +00:16:47.980 --> 00:16:48.320 +it's like, I don't want a smart TV that plays + +00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:52.540 +Netflix. I want a Smart TV that has all the + +00:16:55.520 --> 00:16:55.760 +smarts that I turn my smart TV into a TV + +00:16:56.120 --> 00:16:56.620 +monitor. I + +00:17:01.020 --> 00:17:01.520 +[Speaker 1]: Don't want to yeah Really? + +00:17:04.526 --> 00:17:04.540 +I I totally feel that ethic I totally feel + +00:17:04.859 --> 00:17:05.359 +that ethic. + +00:17:13.619 --> 00:17:13.940 +[Speaker 3]: Oh, on the some other things, + +00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:16.440 +like if you want you To do highlighting in an + +00:17:18.560 --> 00:17:19.060 +org mode document you can use org web tools. + +00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:20.880 +I wrote this in the notes But you can use org + +00:17:23.560 --> 00:17:23.720 +web tools to download a web page And then you + +00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:26.980 +can use org remark to start highlighting in + +00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:29.700 +the org mode web page And then because it's + +00:17:30.600 --> 00:17:30.740 +an org mode document now, + +00:17:32.600 --> 00:17:33.100 +[Speaker 1]: right + +00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:36.280 +[Speaker 3]: you can just edit it directly If you have If + +00:17:38.300 --> 00:17:38.760 +you want other people to join in on an emacs + +00:17:40.520 --> 00:17:41.020 +session you could use a package like, + +00:17:44.540 --> 00:17:45.040 +what's it called, crdt.el + +00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:50.160 +That will allow 2 people with 2 different + +00:17:52.320 --> 00:17:52.820 +Emacs configurations to edit the same buffer. + +00:17:58.460 --> 00:17:58.580 +What? And you have a host that can host a + +00:18:00.620 --> 00:18:01.120 +[Speaker 1]: Interesting. + +00:18:05.500 --> 00:18:06.000 +[Speaker 3]: buffer too. And they have 1 optional + +00:18:07.700 --> 00:18:08.200 +extension for org mode that will synchronize + +00:18:10.140 --> 00:18:10.640 +the folding of the org drawers. + +00:18:14.260 --> 00:18:14.760 +[Speaker 1]: Interesting, I will look into that. + +00:18:21.620 --> 00:18:22.120 +[Speaker 3]: Like having I don't like if you want students + +00:18:24.780 --> 00:18:25.280 +like you have H highlight line mode. + +00:18:26.120 --> 00:18:26.620 +These are just some ideas. + +00:18:28.100 --> 00:18:28.420 +It's like you can have like highlight line + +00:18:31.040 --> 00:18:31.540 +mode so people can easily see which line + +00:18:32.900 --> 00:18:33.400 +you're on cursor tracking. + +00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:37.180 +And then you can have other people join in, + +00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:41.320 +students, or yeah, that's just a possible + +00:18:41.320 --> 00:18:41.820 +idea. + +00:18:49.660 --> 00:18:50.000 +[Speaker 1]: Is there anyone else in the big blue button + +00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:52.180 +room who has a question? + +00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:03.280 +All right, I'm going to go over to the pad + +00:19:05.140 --> 00:19:05.280 +and see if there are any pending questions I + +00:19:11.280 --> 00:19:11.780 +can address. Thanks PlasmaStrike. + +00:19:12.980 --> 00:19:13.480 +Yep. + +00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:30.060 +[Speaker 2]: To be tangled into source code or woven into + +00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:33.220 +a documentation file, which could be PDF, + +00:19:36.140 --> 00:19:36.640 +could be Markdown, could be OpenOffice, + +00:19:39.600 --> 00:19:40.100 +could be a notebook format. + +00:19:42.860 --> 00:19:43.260 +This methodology was conceived by Donald + +00:19:51.460 --> 00:19:51.940 +Knuth in 1984. The main purpose of literal + +00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:54.660 +programming is not only to make code or + +00:19:56.720 --> 00:19:57.220 +documentation or output more manageable, + +00:20:01.020 --> 00:20:01.220 +but to allow humans to create a data story to + +00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:03.460 +be pieced from a single source. + +00:20:06.140 --> 00:20:06.340 +What you see on the slide on the left hand + +00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:09.380 +side is the story and code inside an org-mod + +00:20:14.220 --> 00:20:14.440 +file. The file starts with some + +00:20:17.260 --> 00:20:17.760 +documentation, then you write back down the + +00:20:21.660 --> 00:20:22.080 +code, and at the bottom you see an output + +00:20:26.040 --> 00:20:26.500 +file, which is not shown in the slide itself. + +00:20:28.140 --> 00:20:28.440 +In the middle, you have the source code, + +00:20:33.840 --> 00:20:34.000 +which is the result of tangling or opening a + +00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:36.900 +buffer inside offload. + +00:20:38.680 --> 00:20:38.940 +On the very right-hand side, + +00:20:42.540 --> 00:20:42.840 +we have a PDF. Actually, + +00:20:44.100 --> 00:20:44.600 +this is HTML, random.org. + +00:20:48.120 --> 00:20:48.420 +The very same file that you see in the memory + +00:20:52.360 --> 00:20:52.600 +language. So the humans look at some of this + +00:20:54.600 --> 00:20:54.720 +code, and the machines look at other parts of + +00:20:57.600 --> 00:20:58.040 +the code. I actually did all my programming + +00:20:59.760 --> 00:21:00.260 +in the literate way even in the early 1990s, + +00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:02.980 +not using OrgMode, which didn't exist yet, + +00:21:05.660 --> 00:21:06.160 +but using Norman Ramsey's NoWeb preprocessor. + +00:21:09.220 --> 00:21:09.720 +They still use it inside Org Mode today. + +00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:11.900 +This preprocessor, NoWeb, + +00:21:14.260 --> 00:21:14.480 +allows you to tangle code from within an Org + +00:21:16.020 --> 00:21:16.360 +Mode file that is a self-standing file, + +00:21:18.320 --> 00:21:18.820 +much like Org Mode's edit functions, + +00:21:21.520 --> 00:21:21.860 +which export code blocks into buffers in + +00:21:23.100 --> 00:21:23.600 +whatever language the code blocks. + +00:21:28.260 --> 00:21:28.760 +In data science, these interactive notebooks, + +00:21:30.900 --> 00:21:31.400 +in 1 of the interpreted languages, + +00:21:32.980 --> 00:21:33.400 +like Julia, Python, or R, + +00:21:36.900 --> 00:21:37.040 +dominate. The basic technology is that of + +00:21:39.120 --> 00:21:39.340 +Jupyter notebooks, which take their name from + +00:21:42.540 --> 00:21:42.900 +Julia, Python, and R. And these notebooks use + +00:21:43.780 --> 00:21:44.200 +a spruce-stuffed shell, + +00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:47.860 +for example, IPython, and an option to add + +00:21:52.540 --> 00:21:52.940 +SQL cells. Alt mode inside Emacs has a large + +00:21:55.840 --> 00:21:56.260 +number of advantages. Some of them are listed + +00:21:56.980 --> 00:21:57.480 +here over these notebooks. + +00:21:59.160 --> 00:21:59.660 +2 of these stand out particularly. + +00:22:02.860 --> 00:22:03.360 +Different languages can be mixed, + +00:22:05.140 --> 00:22:05.640 +as shown in the image. + +00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:07.700 +While in Jupyter notebooks, + +00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:10.880 +a notebook is limited to running a kernel in + +00:22:13.940 --> 00:22:14.440 +1 language only. The content of the notebook, + +00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:16.560 +its document code or output part, + +00:22:18.520 --> 00:22:18.680 +can be exported in a variety of forms. + +00:22:18.735 --> 00:22:18.790 +[Speaker 3]: We are + +00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:19.840 +[Speaker 2]: currently the only person in this + +00:22:21.020 --> 00:22:21.520 +conference... ...To share with others, + +00:22:23.660 --> 00:22:24.160 +to use one's work in different reports... diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-voice--enhancing-productivity-with-voice-computing--blaine-mooers--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-voice--enhancing-productivity-with-voice-computing--blaine-mooers--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..034faf8b --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-voice--enhancing-productivity-with-voice-computing--blaine-mooers--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,3361 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:00.980 +[Speaker 0]: Dictation. + +00:00:06.020 --> 00:00:06.520 +[Speaker 1]: Right. All right I think we are live now. + +00:00:08.980 --> 00:00:09.179 +The stream is here. So folks if you would + +00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:11.820 +please post your questions on the pad and + +00:00:13.259 --> 00:00:13.759 +we'll take them up here. + +00:00:20.500 --> 00:00:21.000 +[Speaker 0]: Boy so I don't have myself set up with the + +00:00:25.140 --> 00:00:25.279 +[Speaker 1]: Oh, I can read the questions to you if you + +00:00:26.939 --> 00:00:27.439 +[Speaker 0]: pad. That would be fantastic. + +00:00:27.900 --> 00:00:28.400 +Thank you. + +00:00:28.779 --> 00:00:29.220 +[Speaker 1]: would prefer that. Sure. + +00:00:29.220 --> 00:00:29.720 +Thanks. + +00:00:58.380 --> 00:00:58.500 +[Speaker 0]: Well, for the purpose of breaking the ice a + +00:01:01.400 --> 00:01:01.620 +little bit, I can provide a live + +00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:04.340 +demonstration of the use of this Voice In + +00:01:06.300 --> 00:01:06.800 +plugin for Google Chrome. + +00:01:11.080 --> 00:01:11.580 +So I have, let's see, say new sentence. + +00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:20.900 +I'm on a website that is called 750 words. + +00:01:25.080 --> 00:01:25.520 +It provides a text area where without any + +00:01:30.580 --> 00:01:30.760 +other distracting icons for the purpose of + +00:01:34.040 --> 00:01:34.200 +writing and I'm using it for the purpose of + +00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:38.960 +capturing my words that I'm dictating and I + +00:01:42.979 --> 00:01:43.420 +have enabled the Voice In plugin by hitting + +00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:48.780 +the option L command. New sentence. + +00:01:54.479 --> 00:01:54.960 +So it interpreted that command new sentence + +00:01:56.260 --> 00:01:56.760 +even though I didn't pronounce it correctly, + +00:01:59.440 --> 00:01:59.820 +which is a pretty good demonstration of its + +00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:01.420 +accuracy. New sentence. + +00:02:06.420 --> 00:02:06.820 +Oops, that didn't work. + +00:02:15.040 --> 00:02:15.200 +Undo. New sentence. So new sentence is a + +00:02:16.040 --> 00:02:16.540 +combination of 2 commands, + +00:02:23.820 --> 00:02:24.080 +period and new line. So I've found it more + +00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:26.260 +convenient just to say new sentence than + +00:02:28.440 --> 00:02:28.940 +having to say period and new line. + +00:02:33.900 --> 00:02:34.220 +You can see that it's able to keep up with + +00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:42.340 +most of my speech, and it has to interpret + +00:02:44.760 --> 00:02:45.140 +the sounds that I'm making and convert those + +00:02:47.600 --> 00:02:47.860 +into words, so there's always going to be a + +00:02:59.580 --> 00:03:00.080 +lag. New sentence. But I've found that I can + +00:03:02.720 --> 00:03:03.220 +generate about 2,000, up to 2,000 + +00:03:07.040 --> 00:03:07.540 +words an hour as I gather my thoughts and + +00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:11.460 +talk in my rather slow fashion of speaking. + +00:03:15.860 --> 00:03:16.220 +New sentence, if you're a really fast + +00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:19.060 +speaker, it might have trouble keeping up. + +00:03:30.860 --> 00:03:31.080 +New sentence. I like to write When I'm using + +00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:34.860 +the keyboard with 1 sentence per line, + +00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:39.020 +so that when I copy my text and paste it into + +00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:43.840 +Emacs, for example, I can resort the + +00:03:47.300 --> 00:03:47.600 +sentences very easily by just selecting 1 + +00:03:50.600 --> 00:03:51.100 +line at a time. I like to keep the sentences + +00:03:53.480 --> 00:03:53.980 +unwrapped in that fashion because that + +00:03:56.320 --> 00:03:56.820 +greatly eases the rewriting phase. + +00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:01.580 +And I'm almost have sort of a hybrid reverse + +00:04:03.160 --> 00:04:03.660 +outlining approach by doing that. + +00:04:14.340 --> 00:04:14.680 +New sentence. Looks like I have gotten ahead + +00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:18.579 +of it a bit and it has not kept up. + +00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:22.060 +But generally, it does keep up pretty well. + +00:04:26.180 --> 00:04:26.680 +[Speaker 1]: Nice. Thanks for the demo. + +00:04:30.380 --> 00:04:30.880 +Let's see. I think we have. + +00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:31.980 +Yeah, sorry. + +00:04:33.520 --> 00:04:34.020 +[Speaker 0]: You're welcome. Go ahead. + +00:04:42.380 --> 00:04:42.880 +You can see that it has this EN means English + +00:04:46.880 --> 00:04:47.180 +and then dash US. There's actually about 40 + +00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:48.500 +languages that it supports, + +00:04:52.280 --> 00:04:52.720 +including several variants of German and + +00:04:54.640 --> 00:04:55.140 +about a dozen English dialects. + +00:05:05.200 --> 00:05:05.380 +[Speaker 1]: Nice. Let's see, I think we have some + +00:05:06.860 --> 00:05:07.360 +comments and questions trickling in. + +00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:11.320 +So someone is saying that there is a text to + +00:05:14.700 --> 00:05:15.200 +command application or utility called Clipia, + +00:05:19.395 --> 00:05:19.472 +C-L-I-P-I-A, that they think is awesome. + +00:05:19.860 --> 00:05:20.360 +Clipia that they think is awesome. + +00:05:24.960 --> 00:05:25.460 +And someone else is also saying that Sox, + +00:05:27.180 --> 00:05:27.680 +S-O-X is another good alternative. + +00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:34.920 +[Speaker 0]: I've not explored those yet. + +00:05:36.740 --> 00:05:37.240 +So thank you very much for the suggestions. + +00:05:42.700 --> 00:05:43.000 +[Speaker 1]: So I'll... I just dropped a link to the pad + +00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:45.520 +page here in the chat and on the big blue + +00:05:47.320 --> 00:05:47.820 +button if you'd like to open that up as well. + +00:05:50.280 --> 00:05:50.460 +But I'll continue reading the comments and + +00:05:54.340 --> 00:05:54.640 +questions. So the first question, + +00:05:56.420 --> 00:05:56.920 +I guess, is that could you comment on how + +00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:02.080 +speaking versus typing affects your logic or + +00:06:03.260 --> 00:06:03.760 +the content, quote unquote, + +00:06:05.020 --> 00:06:05.520 +that you write? + +00:06:10.320 --> 00:06:10.820 +[Speaker 0]: I find that this is like the difference + +00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:16.080 +between writing your thoughts down on a blank + +00:06:18.640 --> 00:06:19.140 +piece of printer paper versus paper bound + +00:06:21.100 --> 00:06:21.600 +with a leather notebook. + +00:06:24.300 --> 00:06:24.800 +I don't think there's any real difference. + +00:06:27.980 --> 00:06:28.380 +I know that some people believe there is a + +00:06:29.540 --> 00:06:30.040 +solid certain difference, + +00:06:32.580 --> 00:06:32.980 +But this is for the purpose, + +00:06:34.540 --> 00:06:35.040 +I'm using this for the purpose of generating + +00:06:40.340 --> 00:06:40.720 +the first draft because my skills with using + +00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:44.440 +my voice to edit my text is still not very + +00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:46.740 +well developed. I'm still more efficient + +00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:49.620 +using the keyboard for that stage. + +00:06:52.200 --> 00:06:52.700 +So the hardest part about writing generally + +00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:55.660 +is getting the first crappy draft written. + +00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:00.160 +And so I have found that dictation is + +00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:01.980 +perfectly fine for that phase. + +00:07:07.060 --> 00:07:07.200 +And I find it actually very conducive for + +00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:09.980 +just getting the text out. + +00:07:13.500 --> 00:07:13.680 +The biggest problem that most of us have is + +00:07:15.080 --> 00:07:15.580 +applying our internal editor. + +00:07:20.280 --> 00:07:20.460 +And that inhibits us from generating words in + +00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:22.100 +a free-flowing fashion. + +00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:26.500 +So I generally do my generative writing. + +00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:28.940 +So actually I divide my writing into 2 + +00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:30.740 +categories, generative writing, + +00:07:32.320 --> 00:07:32.820 +generating the first crappy draft, + +00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:36.300 +and then rewriting. Rewriting is probably 80, + +00:07:38.520 --> 00:07:39.020 +90% of writing where you go back and rework + +00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:41.100 +the order of the sentences, + +00:07:43.840 --> 00:07:43.980 +order of paragraphs, the order of words in a + +00:07:44.700 --> 00:07:45.060 +sentence and so forth. + +00:07:47.540 --> 00:07:47.860 +The really hard work. That's best done later + +00:07:49.740 --> 00:07:50.240 +in the day when I'm more awake. + +00:07:52.880 --> 00:07:52.960 +I do my general writing first thing in the + +00:07:55.320 --> 00:07:55.820 +morning when I feel horrible. + +00:07:59.440 --> 00:07:59.940 +I'm not very alert. That's when my internal + +00:08:03.340 --> 00:08:03.700 +editor is not very awake and I can get more + +00:08:05.760 --> 00:08:06.260 +words out, more words past that gatekeeper. + +00:08:09.280 --> 00:08:09.480 +And so I can do this sitting down, + +00:08:10.640 --> 00:08:10.920 +I can do this standing up, + +00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:13.180 +I can do this 20 feet away from my computer + +00:08:15.440 --> 00:08:15.600 +looking out the window to give my eyes a + +00:08:19.540 --> 00:08:20.040 +break. So I find it's actually very enjoyable + +00:08:21.440 --> 00:08:21.940 +to use it in this fashion. + +00:08:29.640 --> 00:08:30.140 +And the downside is that I wind up generating + +00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:32.919 +3 times as much text, and that makes for 3 + +00:08:35.140 --> 00:08:35.640 +times as much work when it comes to rewriting + +00:08:39.780 --> 00:08:39.940 +the text. And that means I'm using the + +00:08:45.040 --> 00:08:45.200 +keyboard a lot later on in the day and I + +00:08:47.720 --> 00:08:47.920 +haven't made any progress on recovering from + +00:08:49.760 --> 00:08:50.260 +my own repetitive stress injury. + +00:08:56.880 --> 00:08:57.240 +I hope that I will add the use of voice + +00:08:59.720 --> 00:09:00.220 +commands, speech to commands, + +00:09:02.800 --> 00:09:03.300 +for editing the text in the future. + +00:09:06.880 --> 00:09:07.040 +And I'll eventually give my hands more of a + +00:09:07.040 --> 00:09:07.540 +break. + +00:09:12.280 --> 00:09:12.600 +[Speaker 1]: Right. Thanks. Yeah, that sounds like a nice + +00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:15.640 +flow of sort of being able to get your words + +00:09:18.740 --> 00:09:18.940 +out while your internal editor is still not + +00:09:21.220 --> 00:09:21.720 +inhibiting things. And then later in the day + +00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:25.520 +or days, get back to the actual rewriting and + +00:09:25.520 --> 00:09:26.020 +editing. + +00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:31.720 +[Speaker 0]: Cool. So this allows you to actually separate + +00:09:33.640 --> 00:09:34.140 +those 2 activities, not only by time. + +00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:37.200 +So many professional writers will spend + +00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:39.140 +several hours in the morning doing the + +00:09:41.040 --> 00:09:41.120 +generative part and then they'll spend the + +00:09:41.920 --> 00:09:42.420 +rest of the day rewriting. + +00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:46.500 +So they have separated those 2 activities + +00:09:49.340 --> 00:09:49.540 +temporally. What most people actually do is, + +00:09:51.540 --> 00:09:51.700 +you know, they do the generative part and + +00:09:53.300 --> 00:09:53.560 +then they write 1 sentence and they apply + +00:09:55.460 --> 00:09:55.640 +that internal editor right away because they + +00:09:57.720 --> 00:09:58.220 +want to write the first draft in a perfect, + +00:10:02.400 --> 00:10:02.560 +as a perfect version as the final draft And + +00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:04.340 +that slows them down dramatically. + +00:10:08.160 --> 00:10:08.400 +But this also allows you to separate these 2 + +00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:10.820 +activities in terms of modality. + +00:10:13.940 --> 00:10:14.120 +You're going to do the generative writing by + +00:10:16.560 --> 00:10:17.060 +voice and the rewriting by keyboard. + +00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:22.480 +So I think this is 1 way that many people can + +00:10:26.040 --> 00:10:26.540 +get into using speech to text in a productive + +00:10:26.640 --> 00:10:27.140 +way. + +00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:30.980 +[Speaker 1]: Nice. Yeah, that sounds great. + +00:10:33.940 --> 00:10:34.200 +Let's see. I think we have about 3 or 4 + +00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:37.960 +minutes live. So I think we have time for at + +00:10:38.560 --> 00:10:39.060 +least another question. + +00:10:41.920 --> 00:10:42.180 +Have you tried the chat GPT voice chat + +00:10:44.540 --> 00:10:44.760 +interface? And if so, how has been your + +00:10:47.020 --> 00:10:47.180 +experience of it? As someone experienced with + +00:10:48.640 --> 00:10:48.860 +voice control, interested to hear your + +00:10:51.940 --> 00:10:52.180 +thoughts, performance relative to the free + +00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:53.460 +software tools in particular? + +00:10:57.180 --> 00:10:57.380 +[Speaker 0]: I don't have much experience with that + +00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:01.500 +particular software. I have used Whisper a + +00:11:03.400 --> 00:11:03.900 +little bit. And so that's related. + +00:11:10.260 --> 00:11:10.460 +And of course you have this problem of lag so + +00:11:12.800 --> 00:11:13.300 +I find that it's a whisper is good for + +00:11:16.380 --> 00:11:16.560 +spitting out a sentence you know maybe for a + +00:11:20.160 --> 00:11:20.660 +doc string in a programming file. + +00:11:26.060 --> 00:11:26.260 +But I find that it's very prone to + +00:11:30.060 --> 00:11:30.300 +hallucinations. And I find myself spending + +00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:33.220 +half my time deleting the hallucinations, + +00:11:38.700 --> 00:11:38.860 +I feel like the net gain is diminished as a + +00:11:41.580 --> 00:11:41.720 +result. There's not much of a net gain in + +00:11:43.340 --> 00:11:43.820 +terms of what I'm getting out of it. + +00:11:45.800 --> 00:11:45.980 +Whereas I really appreciate the high level of + +00:11:48.780 --> 00:11:49.280 +accuracy that I'm getting from voice-in. + +00:11:53.400 --> 00:11:53.900 +I would use Talon Voice for dictation, + +00:11:56.680 --> 00:11:57.180 +but at this point, there's a significant + +00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:00.740 +difference between the level of accuracy of + +00:12:02.040 --> 00:12:02.540 +voice-in versus Talon voice. + +00:12:06.260 --> 00:12:06.560 +It's large enough of a difference that I'll + +00:12:08.860 --> 00:12:09.020 +probably use voice-in for a while until I can + +00:12:12.700 --> 00:12:13.140 +figure out how to get town voice to generate + +00:12:15.080 --> 00:12:15.580 +more accurate text. + +00:12:25.400 --> 00:12:25.680 +[Speaker 1]: Cool. Thank you. I think we have at least + +00:12:26.580 --> 00:12:26.940 +another 2 or 3 minutes. + +00:12:29.100 --> 00:12:29.380 +So if folks have any other questions Please + +00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:31.400 +feel free to post them on the pad and I'll + +00:12:32.560 --> 00:12:33.060 +check IRC now as well. + +00:12:44.340 --> 00:12:44.840 +Right, so I see 1 question on IRC asking, + +00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:47.360 +Are any of these voice command slash + +00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:50.100 +dictating dictation tools free Libre + +00:12:52.260 --> 00:12:52.760 +software? They cannot find that information + +00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:55.080 +Which I think is part of it. + +00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:55.820 +You just mentioned + +00:12:57.280 --> 00:12:57.780 +[Speaker 0]: the voice in software. + +00:13:03.260 --> 00:13:03.760 +There's It's a freemium so The answer is no + +00:13:05.640 --> 00:13:06.140 +To be able to add the commands, + +00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:09.160 +the custom commands, you have to pay $48 a + +00:13:12.040 --> 00:13:12.540 +year. The Talon Voice software is free. + +00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:20.320 +And the only limitation there is access to + +00:13:23.560 --> 00:13:23.820 +the language model. If you want to get the + +00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:26.880 +beta version, you need to subscribe to + +00:13:30.820 --> 00:13:31.320 +Patreon to help support the developer. + +00:13:36.180 --> 00:13:36.460 +And I found, I did do that and I really + +00:13:37.400 --> 00:13:37.900 +didn't find much of an improvement. + +00:13:43.620 --> 00:13:43.780 +So I really don't intend to do that in the + +00:13:47.100 --> 00:13:47.600 +future. But otherwise, + +00:13:50.680 --> 00:13:51.180 +Town Voice, everything is open and free, + +00:13:54.380 --> 00:13:54.880 +and the Slack community is incredibly + +00:13:58.340 --> 00:13:58.820 +welcoming. The parallels with the Emacs + +00:14:00.060 --> 00:14:00.560 +community are pretty striking. + +00:14:09.520 --> 00:14:09.720 +[Speaker 1]: Excellent, thank you. Okay, + +00:14:11.800 --> 00:14:11.980 +I think we have about another minute on the + +00:14:13.780 --> 00:14:13.980 +live stream, but I believe the big blue + +00:14:16.560 --> 00:14:16.920 +button room here is open and will be open, + +00:14:19.860 --> 00:14:20.340 +So if folks want to join, + +00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:22.120 +if Blaine maybe has a couple of extra + +00:14:24.680 --> 00:14:24.840 +minutes. Awesome. Yeah, + +00:14:26.580 --> 00:14:26.760 +then you're welcome to join and chat with + +00:14:28.980 --> 00:14:29.480 +Blaine and ask any further questions or just + +00:14:30.060 --> 00:14:30.560 +do general chatting. Chatting. + +00:14:44.020 --> 00:14:44.380 +[Speaker 0]: So I see a question. How good is Talon + +00:14:53.040 --> 00:14:53.520 +compared to Whisper? So with Talon, + +00:14:55.380 --> 00:14:55.880 +I find that the first part of the sentence + +00:15:00.620 --> 00:15:00.820 +will be fairly accurate and then when I'm + +00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:03.980 +doing dictation And then towards the end, + +00:15:05.640 --> 00:15:06.140 +the errors start to accumulate. + +00:15:09.520 --> 00:15:09.720 +So in general, I think it's error rate is + +00:15:12.880 --> 00:15:13.100 +about 5 words out of a hundred or so will be + +00:15:17.560 --> 00:15:18.040 +wrong. And whisper, Whisper is wonderful + +00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:21.500 +because it will insert punctuation for you. + +00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:26.320 +But I guess its errors are longer and that + +00:15:28.740 --> 00:15:29.240 +it'll hallucinate full sentences for you. + +00:15:35.460 --> 00:15:35.960 +So they both have significant error rates. + +00:15:37.280 --> 00:15:37.780 +They're just different kinds of errors. + +00:15:42.340 --> 00:15:42.840 +[Speaker 1]: Interesting. + +00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:49.500 +[Speaker 0]: Hopefully both will improve over time. + +00:15:50.740 --> 00:15:51.240 +Right. + +00:16:04.620 --> 00:16:05.120 +Let's see. There's a question. + +00:16:09.060 --> 00:16:09.560 +Are the green block the author for this talk? + +00:16:13.380 --> 00:16:13.880 +Not sure what that question means. + +00:16:19.180 --> 00:16:19.300 +[Speaker 1]: Well, there is a green block of text that's I + +00:16:22.540 --> 00:16:23.040 +think being generated from voice to text, + +00:16:25.560 --> 00:16:25.680 +speech to text. At the top of the pad, + +00:16:26.500 --> 00:16:27.000 +I think that's the question. + +00:16:40.060 --> 00:16:40.280 +[Speaker 0]: So I have this Voicens software operating on + +00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:43.580 +this GitHub, on this 750words.com + +00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:52.120 +site where I do my generative writing at the + +00:16:57.340 --> 00:16:57.720 +start of the day. And it just provides a text + +00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:00.100 +area that's free of distractions. + +00:17:03.220 --> 00:17:03.480 +And you can see the text that's being + +00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:08.540 +recorded as I talk. I haven't been saying the + +00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:12.700 +command new sentence, so there isn't any + +00:17:15.980 --> 00:17:16.480 +punctuation over our discourse. + +00:17:24.380 --> 00:17:24.880 +1 thing that I do at the start of the day is + +00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:27.940 +I like to write in LaTeX. + +00:17:33.600 --> 00:17:34.100 +Ultimately, that's how I store my writing. + +00:17:37.500 --> 00:17:38.000 +So new sentence, new sentence. + +00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:52.180 +See, insert start day. + +00:17:58.960 --> 00:17:59.460 +So This is an example of a chunk of LaTeX + +00:18:02.620 --> 00:18:03.120 +code. So I have some reflections on, + +00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:04.920 +you know, what did I wake up this morning? + +00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:08.160 +And how do I feel? I have reflections on the + +00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:10.840 +prior day in terms of what did I get done + +00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:12.440 +yesterday? Do I remember what I did + +00:18:14.140 --> 00:18:14.640 +yesterday? What happened last night? + +00:18:16.940 --> 00:18:17.440 +Focus of today. What's to be done today? + +00:18:23.180 --> 00:18:23.680 +And so on. So I actually, + +00:18:24.840 --> 00:18:25.340 +I think I have more down here. + +00:18:31.420 --> 00:18:31.680 +Then I've set up these lists so that I can + +00:18:33.760 --> 00:18:34.260 +expand them easily. If I say item, + +00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:40.900 +then the cursor shows up at the start of an + +00:18:45.600 --> 00:18:46.100 +item. And I have it coded so that that new + +00:18:48.700 --> 00:18:49.200 +phrase that I speak will start with a capital + +00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:52.980 +letter. As you can see, + +00:18:54.520 --> 00:18:55.020 +so capitalize the word and. + +00:19:02.860 --> 00:19:03.360 +So in spite of its rather limited command + +00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:06.380 +syntax, There's some, it's enough to get + +00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:08.400 +started and maybe in the future, + +00:19:09.360 --> 00:19:09.860 +they'll add more features. + +00:19:14.540 --> 00:19:15.040 +[Speaker 1]: Cool, that's neat. + +00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:21.940 +[Speaker 0]: So I think this is very helpful for, + +00:19:28.840 --> 00:19:29.040 +you know, doing things like expanding the + +00:19:32.780 --> 00:19:32.980 +names of people. So you can do set up + +00:19:36.100 --> 00:19:36.600 +commands like expand the name of a colleague + +00:19:40.520 --> 00:19:40.800 +to go from their first name to their full + +00:19:42.900 --> 00:19:43.260 +name with a proper spelling of their last + +00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:45.360 +name, which, you know, + +00:19:47.420 --> 00:19:47.640 +you can wind up spending a lot of time trying + +00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:53.640 +to look that up. And so this voice in with + +00:19:57.560 --> 00:19:57.880 +the custom commands enables you to store hard + +00:19:59.540 --> 00:20:00.040 +to remember information like that. + +00:20:08.040 --> 00:20:08.540 +[Speaker 1]: Great. I see another question. + +00:20:11.140 --> 00:20:11.580 +How good is Talon compared to Whisper? + +00:20:13.140 --> 00:20:13.480 +I think you might have answered that already, + +00:20:14.380 --> 00:20:14.880 +at least partially, but... + +00:20:19.860 --> 00:20:20.080 +[Speaker 0]: Right, yeah. I talked about how it seems that + +00:20:22.580 --> 00:20:23.080 +Whisperer will carry out hallucinations, + +00:20:26.280 --> 00:20:26.780 +so it will generate long tracks of error, + +00:20:30.340 --> 00:20:30.580 +whereas Talon will tend to generate more + +00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:32.460 +errors towards the ends of sentences, + +00:20:36.820 --> 00:20:36.960 +in my experience. And the errors are + +00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:38.460 +generally shorter in extent. + +00:20:42.180 --> 00:20:42.680 +It doesn't hallucinate for long tracks. + +00:20:50.660 --> 00:20:51.040 +[Speaker 1]: Great. Okay, I think that's all the questions + +00:20:51.760 --> 00:20:52.260 +that we have on the pad. + +00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:55.020 +If folks want to join here on Big Blue Button + +00:20:56.680 --> 00:20:57.180 +for a few minutes and chat with Blaine, + +00:21:00.260 --> 00:21:00.480 +that also works. Let's see, + +00:21:02.080 --> 00:21:02.240 +I'm probably going to have to drop in a few + +00:21:03.900 --> 00:21:04.400 +minutes to catch the next speaker. + +00:21:07.860 --> 00:21:08.100 +But many thanks, Blaine, + +00:21:09.520 --> 00:21:09.900 +for a great talk and for the interesting + +00:21:11.180 --> 00:21:11.680 +demos and the question and answer. + +00:21:14.700 --> 00:21:15.200 +[Speaker 0]: Thank you very much for hosting this. + +00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:17.140 +[Speaker 1]: I appreciate it. glad to have you. + +00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:25.960 +[Speaker 0]: Cheers, Yeah, this is really amazing to hold + +00:21:28.740 --> 00:21:29.020 +this conference with people from all around + +00:21:34.660 --> 00:21:34.940 +the world connected together through web + +00:21:34.940 --> 00:21:35.440 +browsers. + +00:21:41.020 --> 00:21:41.260 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, it's very neat what technology can do + +00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:42.900 +if and when it's working correctly. + +00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:47.860 +[Speaker 0]: I know it can be a little frustrating at + +00:21:48.760 --> 00:21:49.120 +times, but when it's working, + +00:21:54.740 --> 00:21:55.240 +it's wonderful. Yep. + +NOTE Start of section to review + +00:21:59.540 --> 00:21:59.700 +[Speaker 2]: Good purpose of computers is all the + +00:22:01.100 --> 00:22:01.600 +computers run the same code, + +00:22:03.460 --> 00:22:03.860 +so that people, you know, + +00:22:05.740 --> 00:22:06.240 +a lot of people work on the same thing and + +00:22:08.360 --> 00:22:08.860 +build upon each other's works. + +00:22:16.460 --> 00:22:16.960 +For journaling I found 1 good compromise + +00:22:18.204 --> 00:22:18.428 +between editing and stream-of-thought + +00:22:19.548 --> 00:22:19.772 +journaling. 1 good compromise between editing + +00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:21.180 +and stream of thought journaling. + +00:22:23.940 --> 00:22:24.120 +1 good compromise between editing and being + +00:22:26.980 --> 00:22:27.480 +able to do it again and just kind of helps me + +00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:31.320 +do my thoughts even when I do it is when you + +00:22:33.180 --> 00:22:33.340 +do org mode and you have the bullets it kind + +00:22:35.280 --> 00:22:35.680 +of allows you to naturally chart your + +00:22:38.800 --> 00:22:39.300 +thoughts in a way that's really easy to edit + +00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:42.380 +reorder I saw you kind of did that with your + +00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:47.280 +mac la tech macro where you said item and it + +00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:49.180 +would put you down to the next item. + +00:22:56.500 --> 00:22:57.000 +Does... How much do you do stuff like that? + +00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:01.000 +How much do you do stuff like that where you + +00:23:04.700 --> 00:23:05.200 +use like org mode headings and then you + +00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:07.200 +reorder them because like I did that with + +00:23:10.080 --> 00:23:10.460 +also the K outline from HyperBolt package for + +00:23:15.140 --> 00:23:15.420 +the for Emacs org mode later on after the + +00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:22.060 +[Speaker 0]: stream. Yes. So I could actually set this up + +00:23:26.800 --> 00:23:27.300 +so I have a lot of snippets for Org Mode. + +00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:31.160 +I could have Org Mode version of my insert + +00:23:34.600 --> 00:23:34.780 +start day snippet and carry things out in org + +00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:40.420 +mode. So I use org mode from time to time. + +00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:43.980 +I often use it for the purpose of writing + +00:23:47.780 --> 00:23:48.060 +readme files for projects to outline the + +00:23:48.700 --> 00:23:49.200 +purpose of the project, + +00:23:54.900 --> 00:23:55.320 +and say for a director that contains a coding + +00:24:01.620 --> 00:24:02.120 +project. And I think this would, + +00:24:07.300 --> 00:24:07.700 +so the main limitation of VoiceIn is it only + +00:24:10.600 --> 00:24:10.760 +works in a web page and you have to have an + +00:24:14.180 --> 00:24:14.640 +Internet connection, whereas Talon voice is + +00:24:17.220 --> 00:24:17.720 +perfect for something like org mode in that + +00:24:20.200 --> 00:24:20.460 +you don't need an internet connection and it + +00:24:22.940 --> 00:24:23.100 +will operate anywhere that you can place a + +00:24:24.840 --> 00:24:24.960 +cursor. I haven't found a place where it + +00:24:26.760 --> 00:24:27.260 +doesn't work. It's amazing. + +00:24:28.860 --> 00:24:29.360 +So as you saw my talk, + +00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:35.560 +perhaps You can run it in a terminal or a + +00:24:38.320 --> 00:24:38.760 +remote computer. You can run it in a virtual + +00:24:44.120 --> 00:24:44.380 +[Speaker 2]: Oh yeah, it's definitely. + +00:24:45.760 --> 00:24:46.260 +[Speaker 0]: machine. If you can put your cursor there, + +00:24:50.820 --> 00:24:51.320 +it will work. And so as you might imagine, + +00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:53.220 +if you use bash aliases, + +00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:56.200 +I've worked for, 1 of the first things I did + +00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:00.920 +was map Talend commands to bash aliases so + +00:25:02.800 --> 00:25:03.300 +that I can do all kinds of crazy things + +00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:04.700 +inside of the terminal. + +00:25:12.040 --> 00:25:12.260 +And there are, you know, + +00:25:15.260 --> 00:25:15.660 +there's some support already for using Talon + +00:25:20.280 --> 00:25:20.780 +in Emacs. There's some Emacs functionality + +00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:22.460 +that's built into Talon. + +00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:25.660 +So when you are in Emacs, + +00:25:27.100 --> 00:25:27.600 +there's some features that are automatically + +00:25:30.520 --> 00:25:31.020 +available. And then others have developed or + +00:25:32.320 --> 00:25:32.820 +are developing packages, + +00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:35.080 +which I don't think are available yet in + +00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:40.680 +ELPA. There's 1 that does the font locking or + +00:25:42.780 --> 00:25:43.280 +syntax highlighting of Talon files, + +00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:46.720 +and another that adds some additional + +00:25:50.380 --> 00:25:50.880 +functionality that I'm regrettably not yet + +00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:51.940 +familiar with. + +00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:55.940 +[Speaker 2]: Well, as an example with like how the + +00:25:56.760 --> 00:25:57.100 +sharding of the thoughts, + +00:25:59.800 --> 00:26:00.140 +like let's say, oh, how has my day went? + +00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:03.080 +It's went good for reasons 123, + +00:26:04.860 --> 00:26:05.740 +and bad for reasons ABC. + +00:26:07.828 --> 00:26:07.872 +And then later on, I might think, + +00:26:08.460 --> 00:26:08.860 +oh, there's an, I also, + +00:26:10.520 --> 00:26:11.780 +my day went good for reasons 456, + +00:26:14.540 --> 00:26:14.880 +then you, I can, then you jump up. + +00:26:18.520 --> 00:26:18.820 +And so the, like I found like, + +00:26:19.760 --> 00:26:20.260 +yeah, the org mode subheadings, + +00:26:21.980 --> 00:26:22.480 +because you're able to jump around, + +00:26:25.040 --> 00:26:25.540 +easily reorder them after the fact, + +00:26:32.520 --> 00:26:32.860 +the very streamlined approach to the stream + +00:26:33.620 --> 00:26:34.120 +of thought and the editing. + +00:26:38.800 --> 00:26:39.300 +[Speaker 0]: That's right, extremely powerful. + +00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:41.500 +[Speaker 2]: And even with the stream of thought, + +00:26:44.060 --> 00:26:44.480 +just because like, even when you're editing + +00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:45.380 +that in real time, like, + +00:26:47.320 --> 00:26:47.800 +oh, wait a minute, I thought of another + +00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:49.200 +reason that my day went good, + +00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:50.820 +even though I was talking about how it was + +00:26:52.760 --> 00:26:53.260 +going bad now. So you jump up. + +00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:56.180 +And then you do that. And then you have it. + +00:26:59.540 --> 00:27:00.040 +You easily summarize your thoughts and + +00:27:00.060 --> 00:27:00.560 +whatnot. + +00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:07.600 +[Speaker 0]: That's right. And I think org mode is really + +00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:12.180 +ideal for that kind of interact. + +00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:15.480 +So yeah, I see your point in terms of that + +00:27:18.760 --> 00:27:19.260 +sort of a blend of generative writing and + +00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:23.940 +editing. And it's also kind of parallel to + +00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:27.660 +mind mapping. I use this mind mapping + +00:27:32.660 --> 00:27:33.160 +software called iThoughtsX where I'll + +00:27:36.760 --> 00:27:37.260 +generate all these children items, + +00:27:40.040 --> 00:27:40.540 +and then I'll drag them around and resort + +00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:47.180 +them. And they can have children of their own + +00:27:48.940 --> 00:27:49.400 +and grandchildren and so on, + +00:27:50.800 --> 00:27:51.300 +in terms of the levels of the nodes. + +00:27:54.920 --> 00:27:55.240 +And it's pretty much the same sort of thing + +00:27:57.560 --> 00:27:57.960 +with a nested hierarchy that you can have + +00:28:02.660 --> 00:28:03.040 +with org mode. I think having several + +00:28:09.900 --> 00:28:10.120 +alternate modes or modalities of playing with + +00:28:13.100 --> 00:28:13.300 +thoughts is useful. So sometimes I'll hit a + +00:28:17.180 --> 00:28:17.680 +wall and we're just not really generating + +00:28:21.260 --> 00:28:21.760 +anything in a text mode. + +00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:25.500 +But if I switch to using the mind mapping, + +00:28:30.040 --> 00:28:30.420 +just seeing it arranged with the connecting + +00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:35.280 +lines plays on a different part of the brain, + +00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:38.140 +I think, and it can be incredibly + +00:28:40.600 --> 00:28:40.800 +stimulatory. It can stimulate a lot of new + +00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:43.780 +[Speaker 2]: That's something that I haven't messed around + +00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:45.900 +too much with is the mind mapping software, + +00:28:45.980 --> 00:28:46.480 +but... + +00:28:51.600 --> 00:28:51.760 +[Speaker 0]: thoughts. Because the closest thing that we + +00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:56.600 +have to it in Emacs is Orgrimm in the in + +00:29:00.860 --> 00:29:01.360 +terms of like the 3D visualization of with + +00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:04.220 +Orgrimm GUI or + +00:29:10.120 --> 00:29:10.620 +[Speaker 2]: UI. As well as being able to generate SVG + +00:29:12.800 --> 00:29:13.100 +diagrams and stuff like that, + +00:29:16.980 --> 00:29:17.260 +I think those 2 things would allow you stuff + +00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:20.740 +like Orgrimm or denote And then the diagrams + +00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:23.300 +would be the good ways of doing that in + +00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:25.600 +Emacs, but they don't have the mind map + +00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:27.660 +programs as well. + +00:29:30.140 --> 00:29:30.640 +[Speaker 0]: They're not as well developed. + +00:29:32.740 --> 00:29:33.240 +There are a couple mind mapping packages, + +00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:37.700 +but they're not as advanced. + +00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:42.180 +[Speaker 2]: The best ones were JavaScript web page that + +00:29:43.840 --> 00:29:44.340 +it that Emacs interacted with. + +00:29:46.180 --> 00:29:46.680 +Very well. And so they kind of, + +00:29:49.120 --> 00:29:49.620 +you know, worked around and had a little. + +00:29:51.620 --> 00:29:51.820 +Integration with the 2. + +00:29:53.420 --> 00:29:53.920 +So when you be jumping around your. + +00:29:56.200 --> 00:29:56.380 +When you'd be clicking on the web page it + +00:29:59.300 --> 00:29:59.480 +would be pointing you to different places and + +00:30:07.060 --> 00:30:07.400 +buffers okay like those are those the There's + +00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:11.680 +an like org-roam node program where it kind + +00:30:13.360 --> 00:30:13.860 +of shows the looks like a mind map. + +00:30:17.820 --> 00:30:18.040 +You can click and drag them a little bit, + +00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:19.180 +so it's a little interactive. + +00:30:27.980 --> 00:30:28.480 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I'm not familiar with that. + +00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:30.660 +I'll have to look into that. + +00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:32.740 +That sounds very interesting. + +00:30:36.820 --> 00:30:37.200 +[Speaker 2]: I found that I didn't know better, + +00:30:38.560 --> 00:30:39.060 +though, than Org-ROM, so it doesn't. + +00:30:43.320 --> 00:30:43.820 +[Speaker 0]: Why is that? + +00:30:47.080 --> 00:30:47.580 +[Speaker 2]: Well, 1 of the things I'm, + +00:30:51.600 --> 00:30:51.760 +I want to be able to, I don't like the + +00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:53.700 +feeling of being trapped inside org-mode + +00:30:56.040 --> 00:30:56.540 +documents. Like I want to be able to write, + +00:30:58.940 --> 00:30:59.060 +even though I don't really use Markdown and I + +00:31:00.800 --> 00:31:01.020 +like org-mode better than that. + +00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:03.220 +Like for instance, I also use the Koutline + +00:31:04.280 --> 00:31:04.780 +from the Hyperbole package. + +00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:08.360 +That's what my I got a talk on the stream of + +00:31:12.620 --> 00:31:12.700 +thought journaling for with Koutline and I + +00:31:14.060 --> 00:31:14.160 +was like, I just don't like the feeling of + +00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:18.700 +being tracked in 1 document and denote has + +00:31:21.300 --> 00:31:21.800 +the ability to it renames the file so you get + +00:31:26.020 --> 00:31:26.520 +keywords in like a PDF file so you can take + +00:31:28.100 --> 00:31:28.380 +so you can link to that with your notes + +00:31:30.540 --> 00:31:30.700 +without it all disappearing because it's not + +00:31:36.340 --> 00:31:36.440 +an org mode document. Plus the ability of + +00:31:38.520 --> 00:31:38.940 +having it run on multiple computers or with + +00:31:42.660 --> 00:31:43.160 +multiple people, the database kind of gets + +00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:46.720 +screwed up when you try running it under sync + +00:31:50.500 --> 00:31:51.000 +thing. Sync. More fragile. + +00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:56.500 +[Speaker 0]: Very interesting. Yeah. + +00:32:03.260 --> 00:32:03.680 +How far are you? So are you a regular + +00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:06.980 +practitioner of the Zettelkasten approach? + +00:32:12.180 --> 00:32:12.680 +[Speaker 2]: Trying to be. Incrementally improving it. + +00:32:16.780 --> 00:32:16.980 +I partly work too much like testing out the + +00:32:20.760 --> 00:32:21.000 +org-roam versus the notes to use it too much. + +00:32:23.300 --> 00:32:23.500 +So part of it is I just tweak with it too + +00:32:24.800 --> 00:32:25.300 +much before using it and then. + +00:32:28.740 --> 00:32:29.240 +[Speaker 0]: Oh, it's so fun to tweak it. + +00:32:32.580 --> 00:32:32.840 +[Speaker 2]: I think mostly it's as I have these tools, + +00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:34.140 +I know where they are. + +00:32:35.760 --> 00:32:35.980 +So whenever I do need them, + +00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:38.180 +I can use them, even though I don't always + +00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:38.940 +use them. + +00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:43.940 +[Speaker 0]: So I have about a thousand notes in my org + +00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:48.040 +room. Zettelkasten. I've actually, + +00:32:50.140 --> 00:32:50.320 +it's kind of cool that you can export it and + +00:32:51.460 --> 00:32:51.960 +move it into other programs. + +00:32:56.320 --> 00:32:56.520 +I have moved it to Obsidian and played with + +00:32:57.720 --> 00:32:58.180 +it in Obsidian for a while, + +00:32:59.820 --> 00:33:00.320 +maybe added to it in Obsidian, + +00:33:01.480 --> 00:33:01.980 +moved it back to Orgrim. + +00:33:07.080 --> 00:33:07.580 +But I'm not convinced. + +00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:11.180 +I mean, that I think that Nicholas Luhmann + +00:33:13.360 --> 00:33:13.700 +was very successful with it because he spent + +00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:16.420 +5 hours a day or whatever working with it. + +00:33:18.560 --> 00:33:19.060 +And I think I would have to do, + +00:33:21.180 --> 00:33:21.600 +put in a similar amount of effort to get this + +00:33:23.600 --> 00:33:24.100 +kind of benefits that he gained from it. + +00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:26.980 +I'm waiting for somebody to do a scientific + +00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:29.700 +study, controlled trials to see, + +00:33:31.720 --> 00:33:32.220 +to prove whether there's a real benefit. + +00:33:37.900 --> 00:33:38.400 +[Speaker 2]: Oh, yeah. So with the Zettelkasten, + +00:33:41.120 --> 00:33:41.320 +one of the things where you have the 1 for the + +00:33:42.180 --> 00:33:42.680 +sections, and then the 1.1, + +00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:47.480 +or you know how the notes that it does that's + +00:33:48.740 --> 00:33:49.240 +different. The denote, + +00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:53.380 +it has the ability to use a hierarchy manage, + +00:33:55.480 --> 00:33:55.640 +which Org-ROM does everything it can to + +00:33:57.380 --> 00:33:57.560 +eliminate. But you can use them both in + +00:33:59.140 --> 00:33:59.640 +tandem. They call it signatures. + +00:34:04.820 --> 00:34:05.160 +And to me, 1 of the cool features of denote + +00:34:06.820 --> 00:34:07.120 +would be being able to use like the + +00:34:09.780 --> 00:34:10.280 +signatures for the things that make sense. + +00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:13.860 +Like 1 of the ideas is if you don't exactly + +00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:15.100 +know where this is, but you know, + +00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:16.239 +it goes to the section, + +00:34:17.060 --> 00:34:17.560 +you can just use the signature. + +00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:20.080 +Maybe don't even have too much of a file + +00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:23.179 +name. Like oh, this is just another thought + +00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:28.420 +on, well you wouldn't use it for this, + +00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:30.719 +but like my day went good for reasons 1, + +00:34:33.040 --> 00:34:33.380 +2, 3, 4, 5, and you could just use the denote + +00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:34.920 +signature to do 1, 2, 3, + +00:34:37.659 --> 00:34:37.800 +4, 5, just as you have new ideas on like a + +00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:42.040 +subject, or like cars are cars are not this + +00:34:43.659 --> 00:34:44.580 +car is nice because of reasons XYZ, + +00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:47.219 +or these types of four-wheelers are nice + +00:34:48.940 --> 00:34:49.080 +because of XYZ. And you could just keep on + +00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:50.980 +doing that rather than having to get a new + +00:34:52.120 --> 00:34:52.620 +name for each 1 of those files. + +00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:55.520 +Or you could choose not to have it, + +00:34:57.780 --> 00:34:58.280 +but the ability to have it optionally in, + +00:35:01.020 --> 00:35:01.520 +to me, sounds like a really nice combo. + +00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:03.200 +Because then you + +00:35:06.140 --> 00:35:06.420 +[Speaker 0]: could read. I agree. Yeah, + +00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:09.020 +I've actually imposed a hierarchy in my + +00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:10.820 +Zettelkasten and Orgrim. + +00:35:17.680 --> 00:35:18.180 +I just, I can't imagine having random ideas. + +00:35:21.200 --> 00:35:21.700 +They need some kind of structure. + +00:35:27.500 --> 00:35:27.840 +Always have some kind of parent node to + +00:35:28.420 --> 00:35:28.920 +attach them to. + +00:35:32.740 --> 00:35:32.960 +[Speaker 2]: With the workflow I'm trying to develop with + +00:35:34.440 --> 00:35:34.840 +it, part of it is I'm just trying to optimize + +00:35:36.820 --> 00:35:37.080 +the workflow before it feels really, + +00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:38.560 +really, really good, and I don't want to + +00:35:39.720 --> 00:35:40.220 +tweak with it, or I don't know. + +00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:42.980 +Or maybe I don't always need the tool, + +00:35:45.780 --> 00:35:46.020 +but some of the distinctions it seems like + +00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:52.580 +that I want is, I want a daily journal For + +00:35:53.100 --> 00:35:53.600 +your stream of thoughts, + +00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:56.480 +then I want a separate 1 for your to do list + +00:35:57.980 --> 00:35:58.480 +because what you like. + +00:36:01.240 --> 00:36:01.440 +You want very different properties for each + +00:36:03.040 --> 00:36:03.540 +of those. Like for to-do lists, + +00:36:04.820 --> 00:36:05.320 +you want hierarchical, + +00:36:11.260 --> 00:36:11.760 +limited. But if you have more than 3 priority + +00:36:13.660 --> 00:36:13.820 +items, you don't have a priority item and + +00:36:14.820 --> 00:36:15.040 +it's not a good to-do list. + +00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:18.980 +It's just unordered thoughts. + +00:36:23.480 --> 00:36:23.680 +[Speaker 0]: it's a wishful list, because you won't get + +00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:26.500 +most of those things done beyond the first 3. + +00:36:28.180 --> 00:36:28.380 +[Speaker 2]: You're trying to- So And then when you're + +00:36:30.600 --> 00:36:31.100 +trying to do the other stuff, + +00:36:31.980 --> 00:36:32.480 +the stream of thoughts, + +00:36:34.640 --> 00:36:35.080 +all that stuff I probably don't want to go + +00:36:36.720 --> 00:36:36.900 +straight into like my Zettelkasten because + +00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:37.940 +some of those problems, + +00:36:42.660 --> 00:36:43.160 +like it's noisy, it might be redundant, + +00:36:45.300 --> 00:36:45.520 +you don't know how it fits into it because + +00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:47.080 +you haven't done that processing on it. + +00:36:47.960 --> 00:36:48.460 +This hasn't been refined. + +00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:53.140 +So, like, you don't want to refine it. + +00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:55.320 +Like, I find that spell checking is + +00:36:56.680 --> 00:36:56.920 +detrimental to me. I don't want spell + +00:36:58.520 --> 00:36:58.840 +checking. I don't want spell checking. + +00:37:00.200 --> 00:37:00.600 +I don't want syntax highlighting. + +00:37:04.040 --> 00:37:04.540 +I just want to talk or to just write. + +00:37:07.020 --> 00:37:07.520 +If I have mistakes, I can turn on that later, + +00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:09.220 +do it. Because otherwise, + +00:37:13.340 --> 00:37:13.740 +it will distract me and makes that process + +00:37:20.140 --> 00:37:20.280 +[Speaker 0]: Yep, yep, definitely interferes with the + +00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:20.780 +flow. + +00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:25.080 +[Speaker 2]: worse. So yeah, when you're so yeah when + +00:37:28.080 --> 00:37:28.440 +you're doing the getting things done like + +00:37:30.040 --> 00:37:30.240 +that's why I want them would be want would + +00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:32.600 +want them in separate files is that you want + +00:37:34.160 --> 00:37:34.660 +them like ordered, numbered lists, + +00:37:38.980 --> 00:37:39.480 +smaller. And then with the other, + +00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:40.800 +with the stream of thought, + +00:37:42.340 --> 00:37:42.840 +with journaling, you'd want it just + +00:37:45.240 --> 00:37:45.740 +unordered. Thoughts land wherever they may. + +00:37:49.140 --> 00:37:49.640 +Maybe not even like machine-generated + +00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:51.660 +timestamps, So you don't even have to worry + +00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:52.940 +about the names of it, + +00:37:55.080 --> 00:37:55.380 +as an example. So yeah, + +00:37:56.960 --> 00:37:57.160 +very different properties for what you want + +00:37:58.260 --> 00:37:58.760 +for both of those modalities. + +00:38:06.340 --> 00:38:06.440 +[Speaker 0]: So you saw, perhaps, in that snippet that I + +00:38:07.860 --> 00:38:08.360 +had that at, you know, + +00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:10.580 +working on my to-do list at the start of the + +00:38:13.080 --> 00:38:13.580 +day, but in a certain sense that is not ideal + +00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:20.820 +time. I really haven't optimized the timing + +00:38:22.640 --> 00:38:23.040 +of assembly of the to-do list, + +00:38:24.020 --> 00:38:24.520 +I think, in retrospect. + +00:38:27.540 --> 00:38:27.880 +It's just by lifelong habit. + +00:38:29.060 --> 00:38:29.560 +I do that at the beginning of the day, + +00:38:32.860 --> 00:38:33.000 +but probably would be better to do it at + +00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:34.860 +night or the night before. + +00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:38.500 +And so you sort of prime your brain to go, + +00:38:41.180 --> 00:38:41.680 +just get up and go, go after those items. + +00:38:46.360 --> 00:38:46.680 +You were, you maybe you want to revise the + +00:38:49.120 --> 00:38:49.620 +items a little bit after sleeping on it, + +00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:52.820 +but after your subconscious has worked on + +00:38:57.500 --> 00:38:57.660 +those items. Do you have a daily routine that + +00:38:59.680 --> 00:38:59.900 +you follow in terms of generating those kind + +00:39:00.020 --> 00:39:00.520 +of lists? + +00:39:05.660 --> 00:39:06.160 +[Speaker 2]: No. As I said, mostly I just got scaffolding + +00:39:08.040 --> 00:39:08.300 +for this stuff when I want to do it. + +00:39:10.520 --> 00:39:10.760 +I enjoy building the scaffolding and I know + +00:39:12.340 --> 00:39:12.600 +where the tools are when I need it. + +00:39:14.540 --> 00:39:14.760 +And I start using them when I need it, + +00:39:17.040 --> 00:39:17.540 +but I don't have it too consistent. + +00:39:29.720 --> 00:39:30.220 +[Speaker 0]: So OK, so you've looked so far at denote and + +00:39:35.300 --> 00:39:35.800 +org-roam, and you're using k-outline. + +00:39:39.520 --> 00:39:39.840 +And are there other tools that you've + +00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:40.340 +explored? + +00:39:44.380 --> 00:39:44.880 +[Speaker 2]: I've tried using whisper.el + +00:39:50.720 --> 00:39:50.920 +and nerd dictation to do What your talk was + +00:39:53.560 --> 00:39:53.760 +about? Speaking speech to text to see how + +00:39:56.720 --> 00:39:56.840 +that changes Because it does change what you + +00:40:01.020 --> 00:40:01.120 +think What you write down when you speak it + +00:40:05.080 --> 00:40:05.500 +rather than write it. Same thing as when + +00:40:07.420 --> 00:40:07.540 +you're thinking about when you eliminate the + +00:40:08.940 --> 00:40:09.440 +editing, it changes the way you write. + +00:40:11.900 --> 00:40:12.260 +When you have the spell checking, + +00:40:14.100 --> 00:40:14.340 +it changes the way you write to a much + +00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:20.600 +smaller degree. But that's the stuff I really + +00:40:23.560 --> 00:40:24.060 +haven't gotten working as well, + +00:40:25.120 --> 00:40:25.620 +or underdeveloped. + +00:40:30.160 --> 00:40:30.660 +[Speaker 0]: So the dictated text winds up, + +00:40:37.740 --> 00:40:37.900 +I'll move it in. Often I move it into on + +00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:41.200 +Overleaf, this website for a lot of tech + +00:40:44.080 --> 00:40:44.580 +documents. I have a plug-in for Rightful, + +00:40:50.520 --> 00:40:51.020 +And I use that to clean up my word choices + +00:40:56.160 --> 00:40:56.660 +and some grammar. And I use Grammarly. + +00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:01.080 +I'll copy and paste. It just depends on the + +00:41:01.680 --> 00:41:02.080 +nature of the writing, + +00:41:05.720 --> 00:41:06.220 +how serious it is, how polished it has to be. + +00:41:12.620 --> 00:41:13.080 +If I, if it's really vital, + +00:41:14.440 --> 00:41:14.800 +like for a grant application or something, + +00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:17.380 +I'll paste that into Grammarly and work on + +00:41:22.160 --> 00:41:22.540 +trying to get the writing level to the lowest + +00:41:26.100 --> 00:41:26.280 +possible grade level to make it as clear as + +00:41:30.040 --> 00:41:30.220 +possible to as wide of an audience as + +00:41:34.740 --> 00:41:34.900 +possible. 1 of the things I kind + +00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:38.500 +[Speaker 2]: of wish with all the spell checking grammarly + +00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:40.940 +is I kind of wish you could say, + +00:41:48.620 --> 00:41:49.120 +hey, what would the subtle cast in person + +00:41:52.120 --> 00:41:52.620 +think of what I wrote who what would einstein + +00:41:54.200 --> 00:41:54.400 +think of what I wrote because rather than + +00:41:57.340 --> 00:41:57.660 +just trying to make 1 uniform way of talking + +00:41:59.960 --> 00:42:00.440 +it's like people talk differently and that's + +00:42:04.080 --> 00:42:04.240 +an advantage and I can't I really wish like + +00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:07.820 +you maybe these GPT programs could do well. + +00:42:10.840 --> 00:42:11.000 +I really wish it could help you with the + +00:42:16.160 --> 00:42:16.420 +grammar, that maybe give you thoughts on what + +00:42:18.460 --> 00:42:18.720 +your notes are. What does this person think + +00:42:20.220 --> 00:42:20.380 +of your thoughts? What does this person think + +00:42:20.457 --> 00:42:20.464 +of your thoughts? Well, + +00:42:20.640 --> 00:42:20.940 +does this person think of your thoughts? + +00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:22.540 +Well, does this person think of your + +00:42:22.540 --> 00:42:23.040 +thoughts? + +00:42:27.720 --> 00:42:28.140 +[Speaker 0]: That's true. Yeah, I could probably do that + +00:42:31.560 --> 00:42:32.060 +even through chat GDP now. + +00:42:35.140 --> 00:42:35.640 +I haven't spent time trying that out. + +00:42:39.820 --> 00:42:40.320 +But I bet that capabilities are already. + +00:42:44.340 --> 00:42:44.480 +It would be nice if it was like built in to + +00:42:46.240 --> 00:42:46.740 +Emacs, right? It's a package. + +00:42:49.020 --> 00:42:49.520 +Yeah. That'd be very cool. + +00:42:52.260 --> 00:42:52.660 +[Speaker 2]: Grammarly have some sort of, + +00:42:55.040 --> 00:42:55.320 +like, the grammar where they help you the way + +00:42:57.660 --> 00:42:58.040 +you write. Like, for instance, + +00:42:59.080 --> 00:42:59.580 +removing redundant words. + +00:43:02.720 --> 00:43:03.220 +And Yeah, it's supposed to be like beyond + +00:43:04.820 --> 00:43:05.320 +just spell checking, right? + +00:43:08.240 --> 00:43:08.740 +[Speaker 0]: Right. So, and there's actually a Grammarly + +00:43:13.300 --> 00:43:13.520 +package for Emacs, and you get some of the + +00:43:14.540 --> 00:43:15.040 +functionality out of it. + +00:43:17.420 --> 00:43:17.560 +I've paid for the subscription to get the + +00:43:21.240 --> 00:43:21.460 +advanced features, but I've maybe I don't + +00:43:23.300 --> 00:43:23.800 +have my configuration set up correctly. + +00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:27.780 +I just found it was easier to copy and paste + +00:43:31.780 --> 00:43:32.280 +a paragraph at a time into the desktop + +00:43:36.460 --> 00:43:36.780 +application and it will go through and find + +00:43:38.900 --> 00:43:39.400 +those redundancies, junk English. + +00:43:48.080 --> 00:43:48.580 +[Speaker 2]: It would be really interesting trying to have + +00:43:52.640 --> 00:43:52.760 +1 of these That was my problem with a lot of + +00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:56.120 +the grammarly type Programs is I'm I want + +00:43:57.620 --> 00:43:57.900 +something that would do that like be real + +00:43:59.720 --> 00:43:59.980 +interesting seeing 1 that's like an old + +00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:03.960 +English type thing or like Lumen person where + +00:44:06.540 --> 00:44:07.040 +it's just like how does this person write and + +00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:10.160 +Because it would be it would spit out + +00:44:11.160 --> 00:44:11.660 +something a lot different. + +00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:13.680 +Just different. Like, yeah, + +00:44:14.440 --> 00:44:14.940 +you put different people. + +00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:17.900 +[Speaker 0]: Most definitely, yes. They would have a + +00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:20.740 +completely different thinking and writing + +00:44:28.740 --> 00:44:28.940 +style. And so the purpose of doing that would + +00:44:34.300 --> 00:44:34.640 +be to stimulate A new way of thinking or + +00:44:36.340 --> 00:44:36.840 +writing I guess on your part + +00:44:40.600 --> 00:44:40.960 +[Speaker 2]: the purpose of writing is to communicate It + +00:44:43.540 --> 00:44:43.740 +and writing you know 1 of the targets for + +00:44:47.020 --> 00:44:47.320 +that could be yourself so it's like I'd much + +00:44:50.380 --> 00:44:50.880 +rather have a comprehensible sentence than a + +00:44:57.500 --> 00:44:57.720 +truly correct 1. 1 of those is far more + +00:45:00.780 --> 00:45:01.280 +valuable and far more correct English or + +00:45:06.560 --> 00:45:07.060 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, one's more effective at communicating + +00:45:08.860 --> 00:45:09.360 +to yourself. Yes. + +00:45:11.320 --> 00:45:11.720 +[Speaker 2]: language. Well, one's using the tool, + +00:45:15.300 --> 00:45:15.520 +one's the other you're trying to be used by + +00:45:19.080 --> 00:45:19.580 +the tool. And they're not the same thing. + +00:45:29.780 --> 00:45:30.280 +[Speaker 0]: That's true. Well, I view myself as being + +00:45:35.140 --> 00:45:35.640 +responsible for my writing and being the + +00:45:40.200 --> 00:45:40.520 +final judge of it and as a scientist I have + +00:45:49.060 --> 00:45:49.300 +to my mantra is it's got to be clear and then + +00:45:52.600 --> 00:45:53.100 +precise and then concise in that order. + +00:45:56.580 --> 00:45:56.760 +And I claim that, you know, + +00:45:58.440 --> 00:45:58.780 +that's the order with which I go through + +00:46:01.500 --> 00:46:01.780 +doing revisions. Clarity is, + +00:46:02.500 --> 00:46:02.880 +you know, if it's not clear, + +00:46:05.420 --> 00:46:05.600 +it's useless. It's got to be clear to me, + +00:46:08.240 --> 00:46:08.740 +but it's got to be clear to a lot of people + +00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:11.420 +for whom English is not a first language. + +00:46:15.520 --> 00:46:15.720 +And then after that, I got to worry about + +00:46:19.020 --> 00:46:19.520 +precision and then conciseness, + +00:46:24.140 --> 00:46:24.280 +but those can't be done at the expense of + +00:46:27.720 --> 00:46:28.220 +clarity. So it's quite a battle. + +00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:32.640 +[Speaker 2]: That goes back on the to-do list, + +00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:35.860 +where it's like if you have more than 3 items + +00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:39.660 +like here the purpose of doing that is to + +00:46:43.080 --> 00:46:43.580 +help or grant of a to-do list is help is to + +00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:45.680 +Have you help choose what you're going to do + +00:46:47.680 --> 00:46:47.840 +for the day. Which is why if you have more + +00:46:50.660 --> 00:46:50.860 +than 3 items, if you have 50 items on there, + +00:46:52.860 --> 00:46:53.320 +you're not going to get 50 of those items + +00:46:55.920 --> 00:46:56.040 +done. So maybe you pick the easiest ones to + +00:46:58.620 --> 00:46:59.020 +do, not necessarily the ones that you want or + +00:47:03.340 --> 00:47:03.580 +need to be done. So it's like the process of + +00:47:06.200 --> 00:47:06.380 +choosing those, like, I don't know, + +00:47:07.640 --> 00:47:08.140 +like I found that a very good rules, + +00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:11.300 +like up to 3 priority items if you, + +00:47:13.260 --> 00:47:13.440 +and then also when you look back and you see + +00:47:14.440 --> 00:47:14.940 +that you did those 3 items, + +00:47:18.460 --> 00:47:18.680 +Who cares about this? I'd rather get those 3 + +00:47:20.080 --> 00:47:20.580 +items done than any number of secondary + +00:47:20.640 --> 00:47:21.140 +tasks. + +00:47:26.320 --> 00:47:26.820 +[Speaker 0]: Yes, I, yeah, you're very, + +00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:28.940 +very right about that. + +00:47:32.380 --> 00:47:32.640 +I don't, I used to, you know, + +00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:36.900 +use a pattern of assigning letters. + +00:47:39.440 --> 00:47:39.720 +And so you have like, you know, + +00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:41.780 +based on like a hierarchy of, + +00:47:43.340 --> 00:47:43.840 +you've got the urgent and important, + +00:47:47.300 --> 00:47:47.800 +of course, that you got to deal with those. + +00:47:50.280 --> 00:47:50.780 +And then the next thing down is the important + +00:48:00.060 --> 00:48:00.300 +and so on. But I tend to just generate these + +00:48:03.600 --> 00:48:04.000 +terribly long lists that most of those items + +00:48:06.260 --> 00:48:06.760 +would go on what is known as a grass catchers + +00:48:09.180 --> 00:48:09.680 +list of things that you may get to someday, + +00:48:11.780 --> 00:48:12.280 +but there's no way you can get to them today. + +00:48:16.120 --> 00:48:16.620 +But I feel compelled, I need to capture them. + +00:48:18.260 --> 00:48:18.760 +I may want to do them eventually. + +00:48:20.920 --> 00:48:21.420 +They wind up on my list. + +00:48:24.660 --> 00:48:24.800 +[Speaker 2]: Oh yeah, my idea on that is like with a + +00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:26.980 +Zettelkasten where you have the day thoughts + +00:48:29.380 --> 00:48:29.580 +and the day journal, then you have your + +00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:32.160 +Zettelkasten which I don't think should have + +00:48:34.740 --> 00:48:34.960 +too close of a connection because one's a lot + +00:48:37.940 --> 00:48:38.440 +more, what's the word? + +00:48:40.080 --> 00:48:40.580 +[Speaker 0]: It's a knowledge base. + +00:48:43.940 --> 00:48:44.440 +[Speaker 2]: Optimized. Yes, one's more processed. + +00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:45.760 +Yeah, that's the word. + +00:48:47.040 --> 00:48:47.440 +Yeah, one's actually much more processed. + +00:48:50.220 --> 00:48:50.640 +The other is you don't want that process + +00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:53.240 +because you want it to flow from your head + +00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:54.980 +with as little friction as possible. + +00:48:59.440 --> 00:48:59.940 +The other 1 you want to be processed so that + +00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:02.120 +when you look it up and stuff like that's + +00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:05.280 +more efficient Same thing with your to-do + +00:49:06.380 --> 00:49:06.680 +things. So like oh, yeah, + +00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:09.640 +I guess there's 1 more Category like I + +00:49:11.780 --> 00:49:11.980 +thought I found my 3 favorite way rather than + +00:49:15.720 --> 00:49:16.220 +like priority 123 is primary tasks which + +00:49:17.960 --> 00:49:18.280 +basically generally goes up to 3, + +00:49:20.380 --> 00:49:20.460 +secondary tasks, and then I like to have a + +00:49:22.540 --> 00:49:23.040 +third category, unplanned tasks, + +00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:26.180 +and I just have those wrote down in a heading + +00:49:28.520 --> 00:49:28.900 +in an org mode file, and then I put the tasks + +00:49:32.160 --> 00:49:32.660 +in there, rather than using the agenda, + +00:49:33.800 --> 00:49:34.040 +like too much, I don't know, + +00:49:40.240 --> 00:49:40.740 +just I found that that was my favorite way of + +00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:43.820 +doing it and then you have like another file + +00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:48.000 +that would just be your dump of anything you + +00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:51.660 +want to do and that would be like that you + +00:49:57.040 --> 00:49:57.540 +could pull from to get your day or I guess + +00:49:59.240 --> 00:49:59.440 +something that's actually better than a day + +00:50:01.560 --> 00:50:01.720 +is doing it all by a week at a time I found + +00:50:03.160 --> 00:50:03.660 +that that's actually a lot nicer because + +00:50:06.600 --> 00:50:06.840 +thinking about what you do in a week seems + +00:50:09.480 --> 00:50:09.840 +like a nicer unit, where you have a week, + +00:50:10.520 --> 00:50:11.020 +then you have your day, + +00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:13.780 +and then you have the 3 categories of + +00:50:16.500 --> 00:50:17.000 +priority, secondary, and unplanned. + +00:50:20.860 --> 00:50:20.920 +At least that's been my favorite iteration on + +00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:31.340 +[Speaker 0]: thought process workflow. + +00:50:31.500 --> 00:50:31.640 +[Speaker 2]: the week of the to-do I had + +00:50:33.820 --> 00:50:34.320 +[Speaker 0]: a colleague that was very effective at + +00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:37.780 +planning on a weekly basis and he would just + +00:50:41.580 --> 00:50:41.900 +get his weekly list of things to get done and + +00:50:43.640 --> 00:50:43.860 +he was very good at pounding through that + +00:50:45.380 --> 00:50:45.880 +list and getting them done. + +00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:49.740 +I have been too much of a day-oriented person + +00:50:54.020 --> 00:50:54.200 +and a week-oriented person to adapt his + +00:50:56.760 --> 00:50:57.260 +approach, but I've been considering that too. + +00:51:03.080 --> 00:51:03.520 +I think what I don't do enough of is pulling + +00:51:05.640 --> 00:51:06.140 +back to the month level, + +00:51:08.100 --> 00:51:08.600 +semester level, year level, + +00:51:10.900 --> 00:51:11.400 +5 year level, 10 year level. + +00:51:11.880 --> 00:51:12.380 +And... + +00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:16.200 +[Speaker 2]: That's the advantage of finding it by a week + +00:51:17.960 --> 00:51:18.120 +is like you can have like so you'd have your + +00:51:20.060 --> 00:51:20.560 +week and then maybe you have like 1 section + +00:51:24.440 --> 00:51:24.660 +after Friday or last day of the week and this + +00:51:27.660 --> 00:51:28.160 +is like your this is just your like staging + +00:51:30.300 --> 00:51:30.460 +so this is where you stage all the tasks and + +00:51:32.560 --> 00:51:32.720 +then what like you can just stay in your + +00:51:37.020 --> 00:51:37.280 +staging write them all down and then use alt + +00:51:39.860 --> 00:51:40.040 +and your arrow keys to quickly reorder all of + +00:51:43.340 --> 00:51:43.640 +them in the week and then when you're looking + +00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:46.300 +at 1 day and you're just looking at ordering + +00:51:48.820 --> 00:51:48.960 +everything well it makes a lot of sense when + +00:51:51.720 --> 00:51:51.960 +you just say, I don't really want to do that. + +00:51:53.160 --> 00:51:53.660 +Like I want this done this week. + +00:51:56.260 --> 00:51:56.500 +I don't necessarily want it done on this day. + +00:51:58.520 --> 00:51:58.740 +So it just, that's why I found that the week + +00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:00.780 +approach works a lot nicer even. + +00:52:09.920 --> 00:52:10.260 +[Speaker 0]: of a staging time you like schedule some time + +00:52:11.880 --> 00:52:12.380 +in your week to do the staging. + +00:52:14.620 --> 00:52:14.960 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah. Is that way The staging is more of just + +00:52:16.840 --> 00:52:16.960 +like, these are the things I would like to + +00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:19.940 +get done. And then when you schedule it, + +00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:23.800 +then you kind of schedule it by just using + +00:52:26.240 --> 00:52:26.740 +the Alt-Left key, the Alt-Arrow keys to just, + +00:52:28.380 --> 00:52:28.580 +oh, I want this done. It looks like this + +00:52:29.860 --> 00:52:30.040 +would work really good on this day. + +00:52:31.620 --> 00:52:32.120 +This 1 looks like it would work on this day. + +00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:39.300 +[Speaker 0]: A, you still utilize org agenda? + +00:52:45.140 --> 00:52:45.640 +[Speaker 2]: I try to, I don't know, + +00:52:49.120 --> 00:52:49.540 +I found that it works at least better without + +00:52:52.120 --> 00:52:52.620 +it. Yeah, that's fine. + +00:52:54.020 --> 00:52:54.340 +Because that way I also get a log of + +00:53:00.020 --> 00:53:00.140 +everything I've done, which I can't find a + +00:53:03.240 --> 00:53:03.400 +way that, it seems easier to just make new + +00:53:06.380 --> 00:53:06.760 +files for it. And rather than, + +00:53:08.160 --> 00:53:08.660 +like you could use it with Org Agenda, + +00:53:11.540 --> 00:53:12.040 +but like 1 of the things that you want is + +00:53:14.040 --> 00:53:14.540 +with it is to look back at it, + +00:53:18.380 --> 00:53:18.880 +reflect. And so like if you have the, + +00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:23.640 +if you have, if you open up the file with 2 + +00:53:25.580 --> 00:53:25.760 +levels or 3 levels of headings to where you + +00:53:26.780 --> 00:53:27.040 +just see the priority task, + +00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:30.300 +you can get a very nice overview of saying, + +00:53:33.860 --> 00:53:34.360 +I did my priority task this day. + +00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:39.100 +So you get the numbers next to the things. + +00:53:40.200 --> 00:53:40.700 +And so you can easily just say, + +00:53:41.820 --> 00:53:41.980 +I've done this. I mean, + +00:53:43.360 --> 00:53:43.520 +it would be nice if I could figure out a way + +00:53:45.240 --> 00:53:45.740 +of doing agenda to give me percentages. + +00:53:50.680 --> 00:53:51.180 +But I haven't figured that out. + +00:53:54.280 --> 00:53:54.780 +Seeing the granular level, + +00:53:57.100 --> 00:53:57.340 +I can easily scan that with my eyes. + +00:53:59.720 --> 00:53:59.900 +So I just did it by hand rather than the + +00:53:59.900 --> 00:54:00.400 +agenda. + +00:54:06.420 --> 00:54:06.600 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I've, I've tried to use agenda a few + +00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:10.900 +times and pretty seriously, + +00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:15.060 +but I keep bouncing off it. + +00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:18.160 +I think I get too many things built in or + +00:54:21.200 --> 00:54:21.700 +scheduled and I just don't get to them. + +00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:26.500 +I feel bad about it and I wind up abandoning + +00:54:31.220 --> 00:54:31.500 +it. So that's 1 area where there's probably + +00:54:34.820 --> 00:54:35.040 +some potential for optimizing and making that + +00:54:40.260 --> 00:54:40.440 +work better. There's a lot of customizing you + +00:54:42.280 --> 00:54:42.780 +can do with Agenda. It's amazing. + +00:54:44.540 --> 00:54:45.040 +[Speaker 2]: For me, it was though, + +00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:48.980 +I wanted there to be a separation between the + +00:54:52.120 --> 00:54:52.420 +daily to-do lists and like your grab bag + +00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:54.600 +which I think agenda works a lot better for a + +00:54:58.040 --> 00:54:58.440 +grab bag. I want a nice way of looking back + +00:55:01.560 --> 00:55:02.060 +at my to-do daily to-do logs. + +00:55:05.980 --> 00:55:06.340 +So I kind of want them to be separated, + +00:55:08.480 --> 00:55:08.980 +so I just did them separate. + +00:55:12.540 --> 00:55:12.680 +With the agenda, I could never figure out + +00:55:14.060 --> 00:55:14.560 +exactly how I want that to work, + +00:55:15.620 --> 00:55:16.120 +how the files would look, + +00:55:18.580 --> 00:55:18.960 +and how all the Emacs settings would interact + +00:55:21.300 --> 00:55:21.660 +with it. I mean, I'm sure I could, + +00:55:28.780 --> 00:55:29.160 +but that's why I opted for weekly files. + +00:55:34.960 --> 00:55:35.140 +Or at least That's my most refined idea on + +00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:35.780 +the process. + +00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:41.400 +[Speaker 0]: That's a good idea. So I've taken my approach + +00:55:43.940 --> 00:55:44.440 +is a little different that I'm generating + +00:55:46.760 --> 00:55:46.960 +this text on a daily basis and popping it + +00:55:52.660 --> 00:55:52.900 +into this to 1 document file per day and a + +00:55:59.020 --> 00:55:59.300 +like a diary on Overleaf as a big so it winds + +00:56:01.950 --> 00:56:02.450 +[Speaker 2]: sections + +00:56:05.440 --> 00:56:05.600 +[Speaker 0]: up being 365 and where every month is a + +00:56:11.400 --> 00:56:11.640 +chapter and it's compiled quickly enough even + +00:56:13.100 --> 00:56:13.480 +though it's often up to 1,000 + +00:56:14.780 --> 00:56:15.280 +pages long by the end of the year. + +00:56:17.220 --> 00:56:17.500 +And I have all these, of course, + +00:56:19.240 --> 00:56:19.700 +with the PDF, I can search through it. + +00:56:22.540 --> 00:56:22.760 +So that's not as you can't do the kind of + +00:56:24.380 --> 00:56:24.560 +really sophisticated searching that you can + +00:56:29.340 --> 00:56:29.840 +do with Org Mode. But just doing that, + +00:56:33.620 --> 00:56:33.800 +It sure has been very helpful in digging up + +00:56:39.440 --> 00:56:39.680 +information, like the little protocols on how + +00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:43.460 +I attack, accomplish a certain task that I + +00:56:45.420 --> 00:56:45.920 +have to do a year later, + +00:56:50.440 --> 00:56:50.540 +or to have a record of what I did on a + +00:56:54.220 --> 00:56:54.400 +certain day and then somebody above me might + +00:56:57.100 --> 00:56:57.340 +be trying to hold me to account what got + +00:56:59.580 --> 00:57:00.080 +done. I can look that up pretty very quickly. + +00:57:05.140 --> 00:57:05.320 +It's documented. I find that to be just any + +00:57:09.520 --> 00:57:09.840 +kind of thorough documentation system is very + +00:57:16.080 --> 00:57:16.320 +[Speaker 2]: I also mess with having it all in 1 file + +00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:17.940 +rather than by a weak file. + +00:57:20.140 --> 00:57:20.640 +[Speaker 0]: useful. And at least what I did. + +00:57:21.820 --> 00:57:22.320 +I ran into trouble with, + +00:57:25.380 --> 00:57:25.880 +like, once you get a lot of items, + +00:57:27.040 --> 00:57:27.540 +like if you have 1,000 + +00:57:30.580 --> 00:57:30.780 +items, headings, I've had org files with + +00:57:33.680 --> 00:57:34.180 +1,000 headings. It can be so hard to scroll + +00:57:38.960 --> 00:57:39.280 +through. Maybe it's some limitations I'm run + +00:57:42.240 --> 00:57:42.740 +into with the Emacs being single threaded. + +00:57:49.120 --> 00:57:49.620 +[Speaker 2]: At least with, yeah. Yeah. + +00:57:52.420 --> 00:57:52.920 +It was like, that's 1 of the things is like, + +00:57:54.240 --> 00:57:54.520 +how exactly do you want this, + +00:57:55.920 --> 00:57:56.120 +the information structured because it can + +00:57:56.820 --> 00:57:57.320 +change how it's retrieved. + +00:58:00.260 --> 00:58:00.760 +[Speaker 0]: Ooh, most definitely. Most definitely. + +00:58:08.200 --> 00:58:08.560 +[Speaker 2]: So as an example, when I was doing the daily + +00:58:14.760 --> 00:58:14.960 +logs and I put it all in the date and then + +00:58:15.700 --> 00:58:16.200 +the priority, secondary, + +00:58:21.980 --> 00:58:22.100 +unplanned tasks, and then I had it stay at + +00:58:24.940 --> 00:58:25.120 +that, get auto expanded by that level by + +00:58:27.280 --> 00:58:27.780 +default so I didn't see the individual task + +00:58:30.720 --> 00:58:30.860 +and you and then I had a but And then it + +00:58:33.120 --> 00:58:33.420 +would say like I complete 205 or something + +00:58:34.440 --> 00:58:34.940 +like that of secondary tasks. + +00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:38.400 +And then just being able just to quickly scan + +00:58:39.740 --> 00:58:40.240 +all the days and say, oh, + +00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:43.260 +it just, the feedback you get from that is + +00:58:46.300 --> 00:58:46.500 +worth a lot. And I don't think it's + +00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:48.120 +something, it's not something I could think + +00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:49.820 +of how you do an agenda. + +00:58:53.300 --> 00:58:53.540 +Even though I got done in the text files just + +00:58:57.260 --> 00:58:57.400 +because you get that doesn't expand all the + +00:58:59.580 --> 00:58:59.800 +way so you so you can quickly just see on + +00:59:01.940 --> 00:59:02.140 +this day I did this well on this day I did + +00:59:05.800 --> 00:59:06.300 +this well all within and 4 lines per day. + +00:59:11.040 --> 00:59:11.420 +So it's not, that doesn't, + +00:59:12.920 --> 00:59:13.420 +that's not very visually verbose. + +00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:17.080 +Probably about as visually verbose as you + +00:59:18.640 --> 00:59:19.140 +want it. They're not super long. + +00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:23.200 +You easily see the 2 of 3 and stuff like that + +00:59:24.920 --> 00:59:25.420 +that you get done so you can quickly and say, + +00:59:29.380 --> 00:59:29.600 +oh well, these are the days where I got my + +00:59:31.300 --> 00:59:31.800 +primary tasks done or this week, + +00:59:36.340 --> 00:59:36.500 +and this day I didn't do it well and you + +00:59:38.300 --> 00:59:38.740 +could helps you correlate like your feelings + +00:59:42.440 --> 00:59:42.620 +with your to-do lists and journals and + +00:59:42.620 --> 00:59:43.120 +whatnot. + +00:59:48.940 --> 00:59:49.440 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah I think that's very powerful. + +00:59:53.300 --> 00:59:53.800 +Because it's summarizing capability. + +00:59:57.560 --> 00:59:58.060 +It allows you to, you know, + +01:00:00.656 --> 01:00:00.784 +pull back and get an overview. + +01:00:01.040 --> 01:00:01.540 +Get an overview. + +01:00:07.580 --> 01:00:08.080 +[Speaker 2]: And yeah, as I said, it's like the feedback + +01:00:10.600 --> 01:00:10.760 +from that almost when I did that, + +01:00:12.620 --> 01:00:12.800 +it feels like half the reason or should be + +01:00:14.580 --> 01:00:14.900 +like half the reason is and it's something + +01:00:19.120 --> 01:00:19.340 +that I don't if you use the agenda as it is, + +01:00:21.220 --> 01:00:21.360 +you wouldn't, I don't know how you would get + +01:00:23.160 --> 01:00:23.360 +it, like saying, like looking at the week by + +01:00:25.080 --> 01:00:25.580 +week basis, breakdowns, + +01:00:27.120 --> 01:00:27.620 +you might be able to get like percentages, + +01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:30.900 +which would be nice. Like I did this well, + +01:00:33.700 --> 01:00:34.120 +or like habit, I don't, + +01:00:35.640 --> 01:00:35.920 +there might be things that could offer you + +01:00:39.700 --> 01:00:40.200 +but. Yeah, + +01:00:46.780 --> 01:00:47.280 +[Speaker 0]: so I'm pretty obsessed about tracking effort + +01:00:48.560 --> 01:00:49.060 +on various kinds of projects, + +01:00:52.020 --> 01:00:52.520 +or various kinds of activities, + +01:00:57.880 --> 01:00:58.360 +and to get some feedback in that regard. + +01:00:59.500 --> 01:01:00.000 +And then you, but you got the, + +01:01:02.040 --> 01:01:02.540 +So I define a project as anything that + +01:01:06.300 --> 01:01:06.780 +requires work at different points in time, + +01:01:07.040 --> 01:01:07.540 +more than 1 + +01:01:15.300 --> 01:01:15.520 +[Speaker 2]: time. I'll email you my org mode template + +01:01:17.560 --> 01:01:18.060 +that I made that demonstrates that. + +01:01:22.200 --> 01:01:22.700 +I don't know if you, do you have your email + +01:01:24.520 --> 01:01:25.020 +in your talk notes or anything? + +01:01:29.380 --> 01:01:29.700 +[Speaker 0]: Okay. I think I should have it on the first + +01:01:31.560 --> 01:01:32.060 +slide. There should be my email address. + +01:01:40.560 --> 01:01:41.060 +I can add it to my talk notes. + +01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:47.040 +[Speaker 2]: Okay. Would you want me to show it to you at + +01:01:48.940 --> 01:01:49.440 +[Speaker 0]: that'd be great. + +01:01:52.600 --> 01:01:53.100 +[Speaker 2]: all? Sure, All right, let's see. + +01:02:20.842 --> 01:02:20.905 +I'm going to share screen button, + +01:02:21.220 --> 01:02:21.520 +right? There's a share screen button, + +01:02:21.520 --> 01:02:22.020 +right? + +01:02:26.160 --> 01:02:26.660 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, so, let's see. + +01:02:59.243 --> 01:02:59.743 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah, I'm all. That's the right button. + +01:03:04.640 --> 01:03:05.140 +Can you not share the screen on this? + +01:03:08.860 --> 01:03:09.360 +[Speaker 0]: I have something going here. + +01:03:13.900 --> 01:03:14.400 +Let's see. I have, I see some stuff on here. + +01:03:18.160 --> 01:03:18.660 +Wonder if I'm still active. + +01:03:21.180 --> 01:03:21.680 +It shows share screen. + +01:03:22.280 --> 01:03:22.780 +Cancel. + +01:03:28.260 --> 01:03:28.760 +[Speaker 2]: Maybe they just did it through OBS. + +01:03:47.280 --> 01:03:47.780 +[Speaker 0]: Maybe I only have permission to share. + +01:03:53.900 --> 01:03:54.400 +I can put my email address in the chat. + +01:03:59.440 --> 01:03:59.620 +[Speaker 2]: I guess I'll just email it to you, + +01:04:06.600 --> 01:04:06.840 +but Let's see. Yeah, I think the way that + +01:04:11.260 --> 01:04:11.460 +they did it on the Any of the other videos if + +01:04:13.780 --> 01:04:14.020 +they shared the screen they just shared the + +01:04:17.440 --> 01:04:17.560 +webcam they just took over the webcam with + +01:04:20.380 --> 01:04:20.880 +OBS and shared what they wanted with it. + +01:04:22.760 --> 01:04:23.260 +[Speaker 0]: Oh, okay. + +01:04:24.720 --> 01:04:25.180 +[Speaker 2]: At least I'm guessing. + +01:04:26.960 --> 01:04:27.460 +Yeah, I'll give that to you. + +01:04:31.080 --> 01:04:31.240 +Okay. I guess I'll let you go watch the rest + +01:04:32.240 --> 01:04:32.740 +of the Emacs videos. + +01:04:34.640 --> 01:04:35.140 +[Speaker 0]: This has been a great conversation. + +01:04:37.280 --> 01:04:37.780 +Thank you very much. I appreciate your + +01:04:39.620 --> 01:04:39.840 +willingness to share your thoughts on this + +01:04:42.980 --> 01:04:43.480 +matter. This is vital, + +01:04:48.260 --> 01:04:48.440 +time management. It's a kind of key aspect of + +01:04:48.440 --> 01:04:48.940 +life. + +01:04:54.680 --> 01:04:55.180 +[Speaker 2]: Oh yeah. The way the how the function. + +01:05:03.320 --> 01:05:03.820 +Reasons to use emacs is to use the keyboard + +01:05:08.240 --> 01:05:08.420 +is. It's not to speed you up. + +01:05:09.520 --> 01:05:10.020 +Like, yeah, that's nice. + +01:05:12.280 --> 01:05:12.780 +But it keeps you in the stream, + +01:05:25.400 --> 01:05:25.760 +keeps you in the flow state and which then + +01:05:32.780 --> 01:05:32.900 +just makes you think better and yeah and the + +01:05:35.540 --> 01:05:35.780 +thing with that is you I have you I have no + +01:05:37.480 --> 01:05:37.980 +idea what the limits of that would be. + +01:05:39.680 --> 01:05:40.020 +Because you think, because yes, + +01:05:42.740 --> 01:05:42.900 +it's not about beating up how many words you + +01:05:44.860 --> 01:05:45.060 +say a minute. I mean that's nice and all, + +01:05:46.680 --> 01:05:46.920 +But when you start doing that, + +01:05:48.340 --> 01:05:48.840 +when you start removing all these friction + +01:05:52.500 --> 01:05:53.000 +points, all of a sudden the number, + +01:05:57.800 --> 01:05:58.300 +quality, and types of thoughts you get start + +01:06:01.620 --> 01:06:02.120 +[Speaker 0]: That's right. + +01:06:03.480 --> 01:06:03.980 +[Speaker 2]: increasing. Which is the goal. + +01:06:14.960 --> 01:06:15.460 +[Speaker 0]: Okay. Well, thank you very much. + +01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:18.260 +Enjoy the rest of the meeting. + +01:06:19.280 --> 01:06:19.780 +[Speaker 2]: Will do. diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-web--emacs-saves-the-web-maybe--yuchen-pei--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-web--emacs-saves-the-web-maybe--yuchen-pei--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..552148f9 --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-web--emacs-saves-the-web-maybe--yuchen-pei--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,779 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:04.740 --> 00:00:05.140 +[Speaker 0]: 2 seconds. And I think we are live. + +00:00:05.980 --> 00:00:06.480 +Hi Yuchen, how are you doing? + +00:00:08.720 --> 00:00:09.220 +[Speaker 1]: I'm gonna just walk off. + +00:00:10.840 --> 00:00:11.120 +I'm not sure if I... Yeah, + +00:00:13.440 --> 00:00:13.740 +I mean, brain not working well at this + +00:00:14.660 --> 00:00:15.160 +moment. How about you? + +00:00:18.420 --> 00:00:18.760 +[Speaker 2]: Well, mine is about to get fried because + +00:00:21.040 --> 00:00:21.260 +EmacsConf is a very taxing process and I can + +00:00:24.599 --> 00:00:25.080 +tell you we could have a race to know who's + +00:00:26.720 --> 00:00:26.920 +more more tired right now between you and + +00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:29.619 +myself but I guess we'll find out at the end + +00:00:32.080 --> 00:00:32.580 +[Speaker 1]: All right, sounds good. + +00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:34.700 +[Speaker 2]: of the Q&A. And thank you for... + +00:00:37.760 --> 00:00:37.900 +How late or how early I should say is it for + +00:00:39.480 --> 00:00:39.640 +you right now? It should be like 6am or + +00:00:43.860 --> 00:00:44.059 +[Speaker 1]: Thanks. It's 7.45 but I normally get up at + +00:00:45.020 --> 00:00:45.520 +like 8.30 or something. + +00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:46.860 +[Speaker 2]: something? Right, okay. + +00:00:48.380 --> 00:00:48.880 +Well, anyway, thank you for the sacrifice + +00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:50.700 +just to answer some of the questions. + +00:00:56.160 --> 00:00:56.320 +All right, so I'll be displaying the + +00:00:59.180 --> 00:00:59.680 +questions. I'll be, let me just maximize this + +00:01:01.440 --> 00:01:01.720 +on the stream so that people can read + +00:01:02.280 --> 00:01:02.640 +everything on my screen. + +00:01:03.400 --> 00:01:03.480 +So what I'm going to do, + +00:01:05.340 --> 00:01:05.740 +Yuchen, as usual, I'm going to start reading + +00:01:06.540 --> 00:01:06.720 +the questions on the pad. + +00:01:12.160 --> 00:01:12.660 +I'm going to ask Sasha to open the Q&A. + +00:01:13.620 --> 00:01:13.940 +Yes, it's already open. + +00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:15.479 +Cool. So if you want to join us, + +00:01:19.360 --> 00:01:19.540 +people, Feel free to click on the link on the + +00:01:21.820 --> 00:01:21.940 +talk or on IRC to join us on BBB and to ask + +00:01:23.440 --> 00:01:23.560 +your questions. Otherwise just leave them on + +00:01:24.320 --> 00:01:24.720 +the pad. Alright, Yuchen, + +00:01:25.440 --> 00:01:25.940 +starting with the first question. + +00:01:28.260 --> 00:01:28.620 +I like the idea of using org-mode to display + +00:01:30.300 --> 00:01:30.640 +data from the web. Are there many different + +00:01:33.220 --> 00:01:33.580 +packages that do not, I assume. + +00:01:35.560 --> 00:01:35.720 +I'm new to Emacs, so maybe this is obvious to + +00:01:36.040 --> 00:01:36.540 +everyone else. + +00:01:43.860 --> 00:01:44.360 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I think so. I mean... + +00:01:49.240 --> 00:01:49.440 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah, I think it's a little complicated to + +00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:51.660 +specify what is it to display data from the + +00:01:53.360 --> 00:01:53.560 +web. Just reading it like this, + +00:01:55.900 --> 00:01:56.200 +I'm reminded of Adam, Arthur Pappa, + +00:01:58.260 --> 00:01:58.520 +I mean, Code All Capture Web, + +00:02:00.860 --> 00:02:01.060 +which technically captures the web and allows + +00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:02.500 +you to embed it in the page, + +00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:04.400 +but is it really displaying data from the + +00:02:06.340 --> 00:02:06.840 +web? Are we implying live transmission? + +00:02:07.720 --> 00:02:08.220 +Do you see what I'm talking about? + +00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:11.180 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I suspect the question is asking, + +00:02:17.040 --> 00:02:17.540 +like, having Emacs as a client that's sort of + +00:02:19.740 --> 00:02:20.240 +getting data from the web and then displays + +00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:25.620 +in Emacs, like using API or using web script. + +00:02:35.220 --> 00:02:35.440 +So yeah, like the hreader package or a few + +00:02:37.580 --> 00:02:38.080 +packages mentioned in my talk. + +00:02:39.920 --> 00:02:40.180 +Yeah, that's a good question. + +00:02:46.220 --> 00:02:46.720 +I mean, I really don't know how many. + +00:02:48.060 --> 00:02:48.560 +So from my experience, + +00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:56.460 +maybe I use like 10, less than 10 packages + +00:03:01.220 --> 00:03:01.460 +that do these things. And among these + +00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:04.120 +packages, maybe it's half of them are org, + +00:03:09.480 --> 00:03:09.980 +[Speaker 2]: So you mean half of them are org-based? + +00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:11.340 +Is that what you said? + +00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:12.340 +[Speaker 1]: half of them don't. Yeah, + +00:03:16.920 --> 00:03:17.420 +but that's just based on the packages I use. + +00:03:22.440 --> 00:03:22.940 +I haven't done a survey about this. + +00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:25.680 +[Speaker 2]: I think it's okay, you don't need to have all + +00:03:26.880 --> 00:03:27.340 +the answers. I mean, you already demonstrate + +00:03:29.380 --> 00:03:29.480 +a lot of competence and you talk about all + +00:03:31.100 --> 00:03:31.520 +the things you approach with your particular + +00:03:33.040 --> 00:03:33.240 +setup, So you don't need to have all the + +00:03:36.040 --> 00:03:36.280 +answers. Okay. All right, + +00:03:37.160 --> 00:03:37.660 +moving on to the next question. + +00:03:39.340 --> 00:03:39.720 +Have you tried EAF, i.e. + +00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:41.840 +The Emacs application framework and its + +00:03:43.940 --> 00:03:44.120 +browser? If yes, what is your opinion about + +00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:44.620 +it? + +00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:48.020 +[Speaker 1]: Oh, I haven't tried it. + +00:03:53.760 --> 00:03:54.260 +I try to remember why I haven't tried it. + +00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:04.020 +It has a browser. I assume the browser + +00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:07.340 +executes JavaScript by default. + +00:04:12.320 --> 00:04:12.820 +I have to check. Emacs.daf + +00:04:15.820 --> 00:04:16.320 +slash daf browser. + +00:04:25.520 --> 00:04:25.840 +[Speaker 2]: It's also OK if you want to have a look later + +00:04:27.380 --> 00:04:27.560 +and you know whenever you want to report to + +00:04:28.940 --> 00:04:29.220 +the pad you know you write a little blurb + +00:04:34.700 --> 00:04:34.860 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah sure yeah so yeah I know about EAF but I + +00:04:35.460 --> 00:04:35.960 +haven't tried it. + +00:04:38.060 --> 00:04:38.340 +[Speaker 2]: about it. Okay well that's already an answer + +00:04:41.400 --> 00:04:41.580 +that's cool. We're gonna move on to a + +00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:43.040 +question that is a little bit off topic, + +00:04:44.700 --> 00:04:44.860 +but I've also been interested about your + +00:04:47.420 --> 00:04:47.800 +nickname on IRC. This is not really relevant + +00:04:48.900 --> 00:04:49.340 +to the talk, quoting the question, + +00:04:50.400 --> 00:04:50.900 +but I'm curious about your nickname. + +00:04:52.020 --> 00:04:52.520 +You have some connection to Norway. + +00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:54.640 +Your nick indicates an interest in the + +00:04:56.040 --> 00:04:56.200 +architectural style inspired by the + +00:04:58.280 --> 00:04:58.700 +decoration on Viking ships that was popular + +00:05:00.460 --> 00:05:00.700 +in the early 20th century because + +00:05:01.880 --> 00:05:02.380 +Dragonsteel, I assume in Norwegian, + +00:05:04.860 --> 00:05:05.360 +is Dragon style. Are you familiar with this? + +00:05:10.760 --> 00:05:11.260 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, it's just my favorite architecture + +00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:16.060 +style, I think. I mean, + +00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:19.540 +I lived in Sweden for like 2, + +00:05:25.900 --> 00:05:26.320 +1 half years and yeah I went to Norway once + +00:05:32.520 --> 00:05:33.020 +and I saw like this church in Lofoten Island, + +00:05:36.766 --> 00:05:36.780 +[Speaker 0]: was amazing. In Luton Island, + +00:05:36.820 --> 00:05:36.833 +on Luton Island. Right. + +00:05:36.833 --> 00:05:36.846 +[Speaker 1]: on Lofoten Island. Yeah it Yeah, + +00:05:40.280 --> 00:05:40.560 +it was amazing. So, yeah, + +00:05:43.780 --> 00:05:44.060 +that's exactly why I chose that as my + +00:05:46.520 --> 00:05:46.940 +nickname, because it's my favorite + +00:05:47.540 --> 00:05:48.040 +architecture style. + +00:05:51.940 --> 00:05:52.080 +[Speaker 2]: Okay, well, that was a very astute remark by + +00:05:54.760 --> 00:05:54.960 +the viewers, so I hope you feel validated in + +00:05:58.480 --> 00:05:58.660 +[Speaker 0]: assumptions. Moving on + +00:05:58.980 --> 00:05:59.480 +[Speaker 2]: your to another question. + +00:06:01.960 --> 00:06:02.360 +Yuchen, do you have any thoughts about Nixed, + +00:06:03.880 --> 00:06:04.380 +about its name, its approach, + +00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:09.060 +its relevance? About Nixed, + +00:06:11.500 --> 00:06:11.720 +the browser, N-Y-X-T. Oh, + +00:06:11.720 --> 00:06:12.220 +Nixed. + +00:06:17.220 --> 00:06:17.720 +[Speaker 1]: About what? Yeah, I have tried it. + +00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:21.860 +Well, I mean, it's not Emacs. + +00:06:26.140 --> 00:06:26.380 +It's kind of similar. I think it tries to do + +00:06:27.440 --> 00:06:27.900 +something similar to Emacs, + +00:06:33.860 --> 00:06:34.240 +but The problem with Nix is that very early + +00:06:37.180 --> 00:06:37.680 +on I encountered an issue with keybinding. + +00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:43.240 +So the first thing I want to do is to make + +00:06:44.300 --> 00:06:44.800 +all its keybindings emax-y. + +00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:47.420 +So that's obviously... + +00:06:51.200 --> 00:06:51.580 +So what was the problem? + +00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:53.500 +So yeah, I couldn't even do that. + +00:06:56.120 --> 00:06:56.620 +I thought, I was expecting that it could... + +00:07:02.660 --> 00:07:02.860 +There shouldn't be any issues with setting up + +00:07:03.960 --> 00:07:04.440 +whatever key binding you want. + +00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:09.180 +So I, the, the issue was that when I tried to + +00:07:15.400 --> 00:07:15.660 +do when I tried to bind Ctrl S Ctrl R to the + +00:07:17.380 --> 00:07:17.600 +prompt going up and down, + +00:07:22.900 --> 00:07:23.140 +so I use I was I complete and I'm used to + +00:07:26.760 --> 00:07:27.260 +like the control S and control R to go, + +00:07:28.980 --> 00:07:29.480 +to cycle through the selections. + +00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:35.760 +And so I want it the same in next in its + +00:07:38.460 --> 00:07:38.960 +prompt like when, for example, + +00:07:43.620 --> 00:07:44.120 +typing a URL and get completion from history. + +00:07:48.900 --> 00:07:49.400 +But it has a conflict with the... + +00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:56.180 +And also, I try to bind the hint. + +00:08:00.440 --> 00:08:00.940 +So when I want to follow a link, + +00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:06.300 +So I press a hint key and then like all these + +00:08:10.120 --> 00:08:10.320 +links are highlighted with like little + +00:08:13.660 --> 00:08:13.860 +letters that I can like choose which 1 I want + +00:08:14.820 --> 00:08:15.320 +which link I want to follow. + +00:08:20.140 --> 00:08:20.640 +So I try to bind that 1 to J sort of like + +00:08:23.560 --> 00:08:24.060 +Control C, Control J, or mode. + +00:08:28.780 --> 00:08:29.180 +But apparently there's a conflict here. + +00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:33.820 +So when I do both these prompt mode binding + +00:08:36.260 --> 00:08:36.760 +and the document mode binding, + +00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:40.460 +Yeah, the prompt no longer works. + +00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:44.340 +And I reported the bug to Nixt. + +00:08:50.500 --> 00:08:50.600 +And yeah, and there was response but there + +00:08:52.580 --> 00:08:53.000 +are so many bugs there, + +00:08:55.640 --> 00:08:55.940 +and I don't think that bug is very high + +00:09:00.540 --> 00:09:00.860 +priority. So yeah, I basically stopped trying + +00:09:03.500 --> 00:09:03.660 +that because key mining is very important to + +00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:08.100 +[Speaker 2]: Right, but, sorry, please finish. + +00:09:15.620 --> 00:09:15.740 +[Speaker 1]: me. Yeah, so I mean, yeah, + +00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:17.820 +without key bindings I can't like, + +00:09:23.940 --> 00:09:24.440 +I won't. So, okay, I feel this is a very + +00:09:29.280 --> 00:09:29.440 +basic functionality. I'm kind of reluctant to + +00:09:31.220 --> 00:09:31.560 +[Speaker 2]: Without key bindings, they are. + +00:09:32.020 --> 00:09:32.520 +[Speaker 1]: continue trying what These are pieces. + +00:09:34.200 --> 00:09:34.540 +[Speaker 2]: It reminds me of 2 points. + +00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:36.100 +So yesterday with Stefan we were talking + +00:09:37.540 --> 00:09:37.860 +about sane defaults and when he was sleeping + +00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:39.600 +today we talked about it again with a + +00:09:41.400 --> 00:09:41.900 +speaker. We did the mentor talk. + +00:09:43.020 --> 00:09:43.520 +Feel free to re-watch it afterwards. + +00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:48.440 +But it's funny how, you know, + +00:09:50.920 --> 00:09:51.360 +regardless of how big the package actually + +00:09:54.520 --> 00:09:54.820 +is, they always provide some kind of sane + +00:09:55.640 --> 00:09:55.960 +default and with Nixed, + +00:09:58.620 --> 00:09:59.120 +obviously, it's built with a Vim mentality + +00:10:02.020 --> 00:10:02.520 +and modality of key bindings. + +00:10:05.860 --> 00:10:06.060 +And for us, we are more used to the Emacs way + +00:10:08.040 --> 00:10:08.540 +of doing things. It's a complete blocker. + +00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:10.560 +No matter how great the pieces of + +00:10:12.280 --> 00:10:12.780 +functionality behind Nixed are, + +00:10:15.060 --> 00:10:15.300 +just the fact that UX-wise we cannot get into + +00:10:18.220 --> 00:10:18.340 +it or we cannot have it behave nicely with + +00:10:20.280 --> 00:10:20.440 +what we do. It's a massive block that is + +00:10:22.040 --> 00:10:22.540 +preventing appropriation of such tools. + +00:10:25.940 --> 00:10:26.040 +So it might seem very basic to bounce a + +00:10:28.300 --> 00:10:28.800 +package at the level of key bindings but + +00:10:29.620 --> 00:10:30.120 +that's what we all do. + +00:10:32.800 --> 00:10:33.300 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I totally agree. + +00:10:36.180 --> 00:10:36.600 +[Speaker 2]: Right, if I can just interrupt, + +00:10:38.520 --> 00:10:38.680 +we have about 2 more minutes of questions and + +00:10:40.940 --> 00:10:41.320 +I see people are writing more questions. + +00:10:42.180 --> 00:10:42.440 +Did you want to add something, + +00:10:43.780 --> 00:10:44.280 +Yucheng? On what we're saying? + +00:10:47.620 --> 00:10:48.120 +[Speaker 1]: No, no, no, Let's continue. + +00:10:51.340 --> 00:10:51.660 +[Speaker 2]: had plenty of time. Okay, + +00:10:53.100 --> 00:10:53.260 +I'm going to ask you to be quick about this + +00:10:53.860 --> 00:10:54.060 +1. I'm going to read the question, + +00:10:54.620 --> 00:10:54.840 +which is slightly long, + +00:10:56.320 --> 00:10:56.400 +and you're going to have about 30 seconds to + +00:10:57.720 --> 00:10:58.220 +answer it. Do you feel capable of this? + +00:10:59.860 --> 00:11:00.360 +[Speaker 1]: I thought we Yeah, let's try it. + +00:11:02.860 --> 00:11:03.360 +[Speaker 2]: Let's try it. At least try it. + +00:11:05.208 --> 00:11:05.352 +Okay, so quoting, I find the JavaScript trap + +00:11:06.680 --> 00:11:06.820 +almost impossible to avoid since I like to + +00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:10.860 +buy used stuff online and use my online bank. + +00:11:13.140 --> 00:11:13.460 +How do you deal with a JavaScript trap? + +00:11:15.400 --> 00:11:15.640 +I use NoScript and compromise on a few things + +00:11:16.760 --> 00:11:17.260 +I really feel I cannot live without. + +00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:19.440 +EWW is nice for a lot of things, + +00:11:21.260 --> 00:11:21.660 +especially with R for less noise, + +00:11:23.760 --> 00:11:24.220 +but I need Firefox for those GS and trapped + +00:11:25.760 --> 00:11:26.260 +pages. So do you have a quick answer to this? + +00:11:29.500 --> 00:11:29.800 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I don't have a good answer, + +00:11:30.640 --> 00:11:31.140 +but I have a quick answer. + +00:11:38.140 --> 00:11:38.640 +So I use VPN and like a more, + +00:11:41.680 --> 00:11:42.180 +what do you call it, move out the Swedish VPN + +00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:43.980 +browser, move out browser. + +00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:49.160 +Yeah, so I unfortunately I have to use + +00:11:50.660 --> 00:11:50.980 +JavaScript in these cases as well, + +00:11:53.800 --> 00:11:54.020 +but I try to minimize the use of these + +00:11:54.020 --> 00:11:54.520 +things. + +00:11:56.920 --> 00:11:57.040 +[Speaker 2]: How long do you think it will take for us to + +00:11:58.140 --> 00:11:58.480 +save the world with Emacs, + +00:11:59.340 --> 00:11:59.760 +or save the web at least? + +00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:01.560 +5 years, 10 years, maybe a little less than + +00:12:01.560 --> 00:12:02.060 +this? + +00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:07.000 +[Speaker 1]: Well I think it's, unfortunately it's + +00:12:08.300 --> 00:12:08.800 +probably independent of Emacs, + +00:12:12.180 --> 00:12:12.680 +like it will only be saved when, + +00:12:14.860 --> 00:12:14.970 +like it's saved on like the normal, + +00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:19.460 +the more popular browsers like Firefox. + +00:12:23.680 --> 00:12:24.060 +I have no clue how long it will take for, + +00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:25.620 +I don't know, for example, + +00:12:28.660 --> 00:12:29.140 +Tala to pick up so that you can buy things + +00:12:30.020 --> 00:12:30.520 +without running JavaScript. + +00:12:33.220 --> 00:12:33.340 +[Speaker 2]: Right. Well, I guess we'll have to cross our + +00:12:35.380 --> 00:12:35.740 +fingers then for Firefox to save the world. + +00:12:37.260 --> 00:12:37.500 +All right Yuchen, we're about out of time, + +00:12:38.800 --> 00:12:39.080 +we're moving on to the next talk in 20 + +00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:40.360 +seconds. Thank you so much for your + +00:12:41.940 --> 00:12:42.100 +presentation and for waking up early and + +00:12:42.540 --> 00:12:42.780 +answering the question, + +00:12:44.820 --> 00:12:45.060 +and I can tell you, you were very alert and + +00:12:47.020 --> 00:12:47.520 +definitely more energetic than I was. + +00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:53.100 +All right, see you later. + +00:12:53.940 --> 00:12:54.440 +[Speaker 1]: Thank you. See you. + +00:12:58.400 --> 00:12:58.900 +[Speaker 2]: Bye. And we go to the next talk right now. + +00:13:02.620 --> 00:13:03.120 +[Speaker 0]: You are currently + +00:13:15.260 --> 00:13:15.760 +you diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-windows--windows-into-freedom--corwin-brust--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-windows--windows-into-freedom--corwin-brust--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..7dbb18c5 --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-windows--windows-into-freedom--corwin-brust--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,1394 @@ +WEBVTT + +00:00.000 --> 00:06.880 +Oh, wow, how exciting. Well, maybe I should share something then. Um, well, thank you very much and + +00:06.880 --> 00:14.800 +welcome to, uh, uh, welcome to my talk. I'm a little distracted here. I had a friend who came + +00:14.800 --> 00:20.320 +over and just brought me a whole bunch of peanut butter cups, homemade peanut butter cups. Maybe + +00:20.320 --> 00:26.400 +I'll show those off, uh, later. What? Okay. Here, uh, put it right there. + +00:33.840 --> 00:41.760 +Okay. So I'm going to, uh, get over to my plan, uh, stuff I'm sharing here, hopefully. + +00:42.800 --> 00:48.640 +Uh, and, and we'll jump, jump right in because I'm going to need as much time as I can possibly + +00:48.640 --> 00:55.520 +have today. Thanks so much for, uh, joining me for Emacs conference and for, especially for, + +00:56.400 --> 01:03.520 +um, all of you who, who, who participated, you know, in the discussions, contributing talks and, + +01:03.520 --> 01:09.600 +um, you know, uh, you know, including running the, the, the, and it's just so much fun to be here. + +01:09.600 --> 01:16.320 +Um, I guess while I'm standing here and, and saying stuff that's, that I'm going to have to + +01:16.320 --> 01:23.280 +transcribe, cause I didn't, uh, prepare a recorded version. Uh, I had a lot of trouble + +01:23.280 --> 01:28.880 +trimming this down so I can solve that problem by just talking a lot at the beginning, uh, + +01:28.880 --> 01:37.120 +about other stuff. Um, so in addition to the thanks, I just want to say thanks also to the + +01:37.120 --> 01:41.920 +folks on the development list that helped me kind of come up to speed on this. I won't make a big + +01:41.920 --> 01:48.880 +list here, but, um, and, and, and for all that I've learned from my previous conferences, it's + +01:48.880 --> 01:55.200 +just, I can't stress enough what a great opportunity volunteering for, uh, free software related things + +01:55.200 --> 02:00.080 +are, uh, as a way to get involved. People will just totally teach you how to be helpful and I'm + +02:00.080 --> 02:18.800 +loving it. I can preview the stream, but it's not super easy right now. I got all my screens + +02:18.800 --> 02:23.680 +kind of dedicated to other stuff. So should I pause for a second before I get into the slides? + +02:23.680 --> 02:27.680 +Cause that's, they're, they'll be hard to see if I'm not full screen. + +02:29.440 --> 02:34.240 +Yeah, that would be nice. Okay. Well, I'll keep ad libbing then cause I just have a million, + +02:34.240 --> 02:42.960 +uh, things I can say. Um, uh, so, uh, let me just quickly talk, uh, things that aren't in here. + +02:42.960 --> 02:50.320 +Um, I'm going to mention the mysis2.org and the, that project, which provides a port + +02:51.280 --> 03:03.520 +of, uh, the GNU, uh, uh, glibc and a lot of GNU and, uh, uh, their free software. Um, so, uh, + +03:03.520 --> 03:03.840 +I don't... + +03:03.840 --> 03:07.760 +All right, I'm switching a room to, uh, a DVD room to Stefan. + +03:12.080 --> 03:15.440 +All right. So I'm going to take mumble out of my, uh, pardon me, folks. + +03:16.080 --> 03:18.640 +It's going to take mumble out of my speakers here. + +03:22.800 --> 03:30.080 +Okay. We'll take the speakers out of play entirely and I'll just switch to some headphones. + +03:33.600 --> 03:34.720 +All right. So... + +03:36.720 --> 03:42.240 +Perfect. What an amazing amount of time. All right. So thanks a lot. Uh, today I've got a jam + +03:42.400 --> 03:48.720 +packed talk. Um, I've, I've done my best to make, to make this not too overwhelming, + +03:48.720 --> 03:55.040 +but overall we're going to try to try to actually build, um, Emacs while we're talking today. + +03:55.040 --> 04:00.400 +And we might actually build several Emacs. Uh, so let's take a look at that real quick. + +04:00.400 --> 04:08.160 +Um, so over here we have a screen where I am just once a minute looking, uh, + +04:08.480 --> 04:15.360 +uh, indirectly at whether there have been any pushes, uh, upstream to either the Emacs 29 or + +04:15.360 --> 04:24.320 +Emacs 30 branches. So I've arranged for us to sort of keep an eye on that, um, while we talk. + +04:24.320 --> 04:30.000 +And, you know, maybe that's, that's one thing that we'll do. And then additionally, we'll probably + +04:30.640 --> 04:36.640 +fire up a shell. This is the MySys2 environment that I talked about before, + +04:36.640 --> 04:42.160 +and we'll probably create some directories and things. But before we get into all that, let's, + +04:42.160 --> 04:48.080 +let's give some, some context. Uh, I've been doing my best to try to, uh, make sure all this + +04:48.080 --> 04:54.240 +information is on the Emacs wiki as well. So, uh, sorry, as I said, I got a little caught off guard. + +04:54.240 --> 05:02.640 +So I'm moving my foot pedals to the floor, back to the floor here. And I should be able to advance + +05:02.640 --> 05:11.760 +slides here. All right. So, um, I kind of provided some special definitions for things. I'm going to + +05:11.760 --> 05:21.680 +kind of level set with those. The, uh, um, when I say a binary release, I'm talking about some, + +05:21.680 --> 05:27.440 +some, uh, I'm talking about Emacs for Windows as, uh, just ready to run out of its folder or + +05:28.080 --> 05:35.600 +in whatever similar form. The, when I say a build, I'm talking about kind of a process of doing that. + +05:36.400 --> 05:41.040 +Um, when Emacs.get, of course, that's the upstream hosted by GNU Savannah. + +05:41.600 --> 05:51.680 +The Emacs release is, is a tarball created from that. The sources for, um, Emacs are going to be + +05:51.680 --> 05:58.480 +one of those two things, um, very specifically. So I'm not going to talk about patches patching. + +05:58.480 --> 06:06.720 +There's some implications there. Perhaps we'll get into it. Uh, so a snapshot is when I build + +06:06.720 --> 06:14.880 +from anything other than a release source, uh, a tarball. Um, just if I, if I say that I'm talking + +06:14.880 --> 06:23.600 +specifically about the, uh, the XZ version of the file as, as a technical point. Um, + +06:23.600 --> 06:32.480 +so that may come up. All right. Nothing else I think up my sleeve. Um, the, uh, as, as a key + +06:32.480 --> 06:38.320 +data point, it's worth understanding that there's a file called configure AC. It's going to be + +06:38.320 --> 06:46.160 +processed, uh, as part of auto-conf. We, we initially access that when we run, um, auto-gen + +06:46.160 --> 06:52.720 +as you'll see in a little bit. Um, the, but before, but, uh, so the auto-gen script will + +06:52.720 --> 07:00.160 +generally consider this, uh, so in a release build, um, this has been thought about kind of for us as + +07:00.240 --> 07:10.480 +part of, um, making the tarball. Um, the configure.ac, um, yeah, I think I pretty much covered, + +07:10.480 --> 07:16.880 +covered this. So, um, those, those that kind of partially built status, that's a, + +07:16.880 --> 07:22.640 +might be another phrase that you hear me use. So this slide unpacks that a little more. + +07:22.880 --> 07:29.520 +Um, so it can be a little confusing to understand what exactly the, you know, what is it, you know, + +07:29.520 --> 07:36.160 +how stable is Emacs depending on what I have. So the, I got a kind of set of rules of thumb here, + +07:36.160 --> 07:43.680 +right? First I want the highest, uh, you know, dot, uh, dot release value that I can get, + +07:43.680 --> 07:50.080 +assuming that that's higher than one. If it's, if it were to only be one, let's say, + +07:50.160 --> 07:58.560 +if it were to only be one, let's say my choices were 29.1 and 30.1, I would take 30.1. Um, + +07:59.200 --> 08:05.520 +cause that's, that's weird. But, um, what you'll normally see is you might see a 28.2, + +08:06.080 --> 08:15.760 +you might see a 29.1. So here I think 28.2 is got the most, most, most stable, um, + +08:16.560 --> 08:26.160 +set, uh, the, uh, or set of release binaries. The 29.1 will, will have a little more features, + +08:26.160 --> 08:33.680 +but will tend to be more stable than, uh, any, uh, lower point releases for 29, uh, certainly + +08:33.680 --> 08:39.600 +than any release candidates for 29, which might even have new features, um, but are mostly going + +08:39.600 --> 08:46.000 +to just be packages. So they're going to become the most stable thing here. And especially if + +08:46.000 --> 08:53.600 +they, they, they have a, you know, if this, this is not, uh, if this were to be 29.2 release + +08:53.600 --> 09:04.960 +candidate one as well, looking forward to seeing, um, the, uh, 30.50. Um, and, and in between this, + +09:04.960 --> 09:11.840 +this pretest here, we're talking about kind of developer land. Um, so, um, the expectation is + +09:11.840 --> 09:16.560 +that, you know, what you're doing that applies to windows users, uh, just as much if you are + +09:16.560 --> 09:22.960 +building anything in the snapshot range, any of that is going to be in this 30.0.50. Currently + +09:22.960 --> 09:32.240 +that'll change when the, uh, when the 30, 30, uh, an Emacs 30 release tags, uh, or release branches + +09:32.240 --> 09:42.880 +come. Okay. So let's talk about the local. Um, there's not much to know about what I have going + +09:42.880 --> 09:51.200 +on, except that I have my, my paths mess messed with. So, um, if, if that, that were to come up, + +09:51.200 --> 09:57.120 +if you're wondering how, why does this, uh, and insist command work, that's probably the place + +09:57.120 --> 10:03.760 +where you'd notice it. Uh, I am using windows 10. I haven't tried windows 11, uh, as mentioned, + +10:03.760 --> 10:09.520 +mysis2 is critical to all this. There's one script in particular that will error out if you try to do + +10:09.520 --> 10:16.560 +anything other than use mysis's, mysis's shell. And in fact, mysis owns or provides three shells + +10:16.560 --> 10:21.760 +and of them, that script is designed to work with a specific one of them as, as we'll come to. + +10:22.720 --> 10:29.120 +Uh, I don't talk about installing the dependencies, but just as, as kind of some kind of help, + +10:29.680 --> 10:38.480 +um, you can search using this formula and install, uh, using this formula. + +10:38.480 --> 10:40.800 +Good luck with those, you know, grep commands. + +10:43.520 --> 10:49.440 +And this is the tool for building the self-installing self-extracting installer or, uh, + +10:49.520 --> 10:55.600 +executable self-installer. Um, the script for that is provided along with the Emacs source. + +10:56.720 --> 11:03.280 +Um, and I've provided a helpful link to the main page for the project download link on the left. + +11:03.280 --> 11:09.680 +It is not, um, it's kind of scare where the way that this link appears, but I have clicked it and + +11:09.680 --> 11:18.960 +it's working for me. Automation does, uh, we'll, we have some time we'll be looking at this at a + +11:18.960 --> 11:24.560 +minimum. I wanted to mention that what I do on my local, what you're seeing in the crawler, I hope, + +11:25.280 --> 11:35.600 +uh, represents a, uh, a simple sleep loop. Uh, and we'll, we'll look into that if we have time. + +11:36.560 --> 11:42.960 +Um, I do have a little bit, I do use like a cron job and so on to clean up some hosting that, + +11:42.960 --> 11:50.160 +that I pay for, um, where I've got, where I, where I kind of self host some, uh, snapshots, + +11:50.720 --> 11:58.880 +more stuff than I feel comfortable uploading to, uh, to GNU. The, um, + +12:01.760 --> 12:06.480 +you know, I never said, uh, my name is Corwin Brust. For the last couple of years, I've been + +12:06.480 --> 12:12.480 +the volunteer making, uh, um, making the snapshots, the quote unquote, official binaries, + +12:12.480 --> 12:20.560 +uh, for windows of the, um, of, of Emacs for windows. So that's, that's all the different + +12:20.560 --> 12:25.680 +versions. Uh, help is always welcome with that. I'd be very happy to teach you in more depth. + +12:25.680 --> 12:31.920 +This video is, you know, kind of my drop dead file. Uh, I don't have specific plans. Uh, if + +12:31.920 --> 12:36.480 +somebody's like, Hey, get out of the way, this is the one thing I think I can do. Um, Hey, + +12:36.480 --> 12:44.640 +that's real relatable. Okay. Um, so I haven't tried, uh, the, I haven't tried a lot of fun + +12:44.640 --> 12:50.400 +things that I won't talk about. Um, the, uh, the rest of this talk is going to get into the + +12:50.400 --> 12:56.560 +nitty gritty. As I said, um, if we can't convince Emacs to start building over on that screen, + +12:56.560 --> 13:05.120 +we'll be opening it up here on the center stage. Um, uh, this begins and there's, there's, there's, + +13:05.120 --> 13:11.520 +there's great insight here too, on the wiki, uh, with picking an FTP source for any official + +13:11.520 --> 13:19.760 +release that is for a stable product, please visit, um, ftp.gnu.org. Otherwise you'll want + +13:19.760 --> 13:27.280 +to switch that FTP dot at the beginning to alpha dot and take a pretest, uh, or any snapshot or + +13:27.280 --> 13:36.640 +otherwise, then publish there the, uh, next, uh, you know, I'm gonna, you have some examples in + +13:36.640 --> 13:43.440 +here that assume that you're doing a release bill that you're doing $29 one, but, um, I am glancing + +13:43.520 --> 13:51.440 +out of the, the right side of my face at the chat on the opt-ins. Anybody in there wants to direct + +13:51.440 --> 13:57.840 +me at a particular, um, we can make some other, we can build something else. If you want to see + +13:57.840 --> 14:03.840 +a snapshot build more mentioned that, um, the examples that you're going to see here that I + +14:03.840 --> 14:12.560 +will, without other direction, cut and paste, um, are all, uh, based on the release bill. So, + +14:14.640 --> 14:22.320 +um, so, uh, we'll use the, uh, I mentioned that there are several shells provided by MySys2. + +14:22.960 --> 14:33.120 +The MinGW64 shell is the one that we mostly need. Um, I tested all of this as well with the MinGW32 + +14:33.120 --> 14:40.400 +shell. Um, so that, that should work and, and see mix binaries that, that, that work for me. + +14:44.080 --> 14:50.720 +Uh, I, as I mentioned, I don't get into the details of installing all your prerequisites. + +14:50.720 --> 14:56.560 +I found that doing it in a headfirst manner wasn't, uh, wasn't difficult. And I also found + +14:56.560 --> 15:00.240 +that there's a number of tutorials. I didn't want to pick one to link here. + +15:01.040 --> 15:10.800 +Um, there, uh, here, uh, okay. So our general formula for building Emacs, irrespective of + +15:10.800 --> 15:19.600 +Windows, looks like, does the configure script exist if not run autogen? From a Windows build + +15:19.600 --> 15:27.600 +standpoint, this is, if I'm not running a release, release build, call the autogen script. + +15:27.840 --> 15:32.080 +Right. And this would be in the directory where we want to pack this. I'll demonstrate + +15:32.080 --> 15:42.640 +within three minutes if, uh, if one, if nobody's pushed upstream to Emacs. Um, so, uh, the configure, + +15:42.640 --> 15:53.280 +uh, and, uh, configure options are, uh, uh, the, the configure, you know, if the configure, sorry, + +15:54.240 --> 16:01.520 +the configure script exists, then, uh, it doesn't, doesn't exist. So the only reason, + +16:01.520 --> 16:07.920 +so in my process, I will always execute that step because I clean everything after every build, + +16:07.920 --> 16:16.880 +um, in all my contexts. Um, however, if you were, you know, had a, a checkout of emacs.get + +16:16.880 --> 16:21.440 +and you are building it at several releases, then maybe you've got a configure script and then you + +16:21.440 --> 16:27.600 +all want to know, um, the, you know, whether you have to bootstrap and the typical complexities, + +16:27.600 --> 16:33.200 +but otherwise you might be able to skip that in, in, in the abstract. Um, + +16:36.080 --> 16:41.520 +is that right? Or is it, is it the make, uh, so, and if they make file doesn't exist, + +16:41.520 --> 16:46.080 +make install. I know I'm looking at that in question whether it's correct. Sorry about that. + +16:46.640 --> 16:55.600 +Um, in any case, uh, so auto-gen configure make install is our recipe. Auto-gen creates the + +16:55.600 --> 17:01.840 +configure script, configure creates the make file, the make file. Um, in the case of windows, + +17:01.840 --> 17:08.080 +I almost always want the install, uh, and to specify some location where the installed emacs + +17:08.080 --> 17:19.120 +will land. This is where all of the recipes for packaging emacs go. And if I were, uh, you know, + +17:19.120 --> 17:24.640 +using this as a movie to upgrade, I personally would do that by, by specifying an install path, + +17:24.640 --> 17:31.520 +quote unquote, on top of, uh, a main installation. I don't do that. I update shortcuts mainly based + +17:31.520 --> 17:37.600 +on what specifically I want to try, uh, in an effort to, to, to, to notice, uh, interesting + +17:37.600 --> 17:44.400 +patches and confirm they work on windows, which mostly they do. There's not a lot of code in my + +17:44.400 --> 17:49.760 +experience that is, uh, windows specific and very, very little around the build process. + +17:50.320 --> 17:57.440 +All right. Huge rabbit hole zone. And I still have a minute before I have to, uh, kick off + +17:57.440 --> 18:07.120 +the first part of our demo. So let's, let's keep, keep diving in, um, the, those specific part + +18:07.120 --> 18:11.920 +windows specific parts beside the dot exe extension that we're going to find slammed + +18:11.920 --> 18:17.680 +onto all of our familiar, uh, executables. We're also going to have emacs client W, + +18:18.400 --> 18:26.880 +which is a wrapper that hides, um, how hard it is to get, uh, to, to, to get it, + +18:27.600 --> 18:31.760 +how bad the abstraction is between the window management layer and the GUI, + +18:32.400 --> 18:37.040 +and then all the different parts on windows. Essentially, it wants to create a shell window. + +18:37.040 --> 18:42.960 +If we just double click emacs dot exe. So emacs client W, uh, and run emacs, + +18:42.960 --> 18:49.440 +they're going to solve that problem. Um, uh, wrapping emacs and emacs client respectively. + +18:51.600 --> 19:00.320 +And, um, just, uh, all right. So let's, let's go ahead and do something. I'll, I'm going to + +19:00.320 --> 19:08.080 +take away the ticker here for a minute. And what you're not seeing is off stage. I am killing that + +19:08.080 --> 19:19.680 +so we don't get built in parallel. Um, so, um, so at this point I'm going to open up a shell and + +19:19.680 --> 19:24.240 +I'm going to start talking just a little bit about my local build environment, which we haven't + +19:24.240 --> 19:32.640 +gotten into. In fact, just to make that even easier, let's, um, let's just take a look at it + +19:32.640 --> 19:40.640 +a little bit. Probably the easiest spot is here. + +19:47.680 --> 19:55.280 +All right. So here we have the familiar windows, my computer interface. I have the G drive and the + +19:55.680 --> 20:07.200 +H drive, four terabyte drives, um, dedicated to my, um, really overblown emacs build process. + +20:08.160 --> 20:14.000 +Um, this just lets me be super lazy. There's no reason you need any massive amount of storage + +20:14.000 --> 20:22.080 +to do any of this. Um, inside here, and now I'll actually switch you back to the other screen. + +20:23.040 --> 20:26.560 +Um, we'll, we'll find, + +20:37.280 --> 20:46.480 +oops, sorry about that. I didn't take the time to label that one. Um, so here you can see + +20:46.480 --> 20:53.760 +the primary output that I'm looking at through this automated process. I come along, I look at + +20:53.760 --> 20:59.840 +the bug reports, or maybe I'm just restarting my computer and choosing what emacs version at random. + +20:59.840 --> 21:06.240 +And then in that case, I look at this modified date and I say, um, my config that I, you know, + +21:06.240 --> 21:11.120 +that I'm playing with right now is all set for emacs 30, or I'm testing the both and I'm + +21:11.120 --> 21:16.400 +relaunching both of these. Right. So for me, that starts by diving into the install folder, + +21:16.400 --> 21:22.720 +going into the bin folder, which looks exactly the way my automation leaves it. I then come in + +21:22.720 --> 21:34.320 +to run the run emacs and I create a shortcut, um, to it. So I'm a keyboard person. So that's + +21:34.320 --> 21:40.400 +usually done like this. And then I just know that the context menu is going to come up in the right + +21:40.400 --> 21:49.120 +place. So I'll come up and, um, possibly change the, change the shortcut, right. + +21:53.120 --> 22:01.280 +If I don't mess with it. Um, so here's where I'll add my minus Q, if that's kind of where + +22:01.280 --> 22:06.800 +my world was at, or it kind of depends on what I'm doing with these, which varies week to week. + +22:07.440 --> 22:12.000 +Um, so restarting my emacs, uh, involves doing the same thing, going to my desktop + +22:12.560 --> 22:23.200 +and where you'll find a number of emac shortcuts and, um, updating the shortcut in the same manner + +22:23.920 --> 22:28.000 +joint actually, maybe we'll just, let's go back there and just show it. + +22:28.000 --> 22:31.600 +So if we look at, for example, my ERC, + +22:31.760 --> 22:39.040 +you can see, it's going to be pointing at one of these clones and then it's going to + +22:39.760 --> 22:44.720 +maybe tell me that I want, it wants to be full screen. Nope, not currently. And then it might, + +22:44.720 --> 22:48.720 +uh, have some stuff in there about auto-loading at config and what + +22:48.720 --> 22:52.560 +connections I'm going to, some commands I've defined to start connections. + +22:53.280 --> 22:57.680 +All right. And sorry, I got a phone call. I was checking. It wasn't in an org, the org, + +22:57.680 --> 23:04.160 +not the other organizers giving me the hook. So, um, all right. So that's, that's probably + +23:04.160 --> 23:11.440 +enough on the local system. Let's get back to the, to, to building emacs. And now it hopefully makes + +23:11.440 --> 23:17.440 +a certain amount of sense when I say we're going to wander over to the H drive and, and, and, and, + +23:17.920 --> 23:22.560 +hopefully makes a certain amount of sense when I say we're going to wander over to the H drive + +23:22.560 --> 23:31.520 +and recreate the structure that, um, both my process sort of assumes and the scripts you'll + +23:31.520 --> 23:41.440 +find in the admin NT, uh, build disk folder in source used to assume. Those scripts are in need + +23:41.440 --> 23:49.440 +of some love. And in just a little bit, I'll be mentioning a build, uh, a, uh, a, a, a particular + +23:49.440 --> 23:54.000 +bug that you might want to pay attention to if you're interested in making a self-installer. + +23:54.800 --> 24:04.320 +All right. So, um, we're going to create, uh, an emacs build directory. + +24:04.320 --> 24:16.960 +And we've got a handy git clone stage, git clone command stage for ourself. That would work. Um, + +24:19.360 --> 24:26.160 +do not currently see anybody lobbying for that. So instead we will run the rather faster + +24:27.120 --> 24:36.080 +uh, W get command on Savannah, which is not pasted in here. Nice. Let's see if I can freehand it. + +24:36.080 --> 24:40.000 +Not going to do it. Uh, + +24:40.720 --> 24:41.840 +okay. + +24:52.000 --> 24:56.560 +I beg your pardon. I'm grabbing a URL from the internet. + +25:00.080 --> 25:06.960 +Uh, okay. Yeah, I can, I can honestly, I can freehand it, whatever. Okay. Sorry. I, uh, + +25:07.680 --> 25:13.200 +I didn't have that bookmarked in all handy. Like I thought I did. Um, so we'll just say + +25:13.200 --> 25:30.480 +ftp.gnu.org slash, uh, what is it? Pub emacs, emacs-29.1, uh, .org.gnu.org.exe. + +25:30.480 --> 25:47.040 +I really think I'd have this command sitting around. It makes me want to scrap the whole + +25:47.040 --> 25:54.720 +demo. I'm not going to lie. Okay. How am I doing? Um, I think at least 15 minutes. Um, + +25:54.720 --> 25:58.160 +but in the command that you were freehanding, should the pub be GNU instead? + +25:59.120 --> 26:01.680 +Oh, thanks. I'm sorry. + +26:07.440 --> 26:13.360 +There we go. Thank you. All right. And then we'll, + +26:17.760 --> 26:20.160 +and I'm not sure I provided commands for this either, + +26:20.720 --> 26:29.600 +but it is trivially easy to do. And while that happens, we'll get to move on a few slides. + +26:31.760 --> 26:38.000 +Um, the configure script I'm not talking about in a lot of detail, but I do want to mention that the + +26:38.000 --> 26:44.720 +GNU binaries are provided with native, uh, compilation enabled. That's the feature that + +26:44.800 --> 26:55.360 +uses gcc lib gcc get on windows. If available, that lib gcc get will be used. Um, but when, + +26:55.360 --> 27:03.200 +but, uh, if, if, uh, emacs has that feature, then it will take by compile, uh, native code and, + +27:03.200 --> 27:10.880 +uh, asynchronously compile that as needed, uh, with the ahead of time feature. We're going to + +27:10.880 --> 27:15.360 +do as much of that ahead of time. And for folks that are consuming the windows binary, the + +27:15.360 --> 27:21.360 +thinking goes that they might not have my assist too. They might not have lib gcc jet. They might + +27:21.360 --> 27:28.560 +be happy that they're enabled in a, you know, a lot of time running emacs on their local environments + +27:30.400 --> 27:39.120 +at all, you know, in a, maybe a lockdown, uh, corporate context. So aside that, um, there's + +27:39.120 --> 27:45.120 +your first glimpse at the configure, um, program that we're going to run in a moment. In fact, + +27:45.120 --> 27:52.160 +I'm going to go as far as putting it on the clipboard. Um, really just looking at this, + +27:52.160 --> 27:57.120 +the AOT flag is the one I'd call attention to, but it's worth understanding that windows doesn't + +27:57.120 --> 28:02.000 +provide a D bus capability. So windows native program isn't going to be able to depend on D + +28:02.000 --> 28:07.600 +bus. We're going to, we're going to explicitly ask that that be left out. I think that's actually + +28:07.600 --> 28:12.080 +optional and it's documentation. I think the configure program is smart enough to know that + +28:12.080 --> 28:20.080 +we don't want D bus on windows. Um, otherwise we tend to compile with things. Um, there there's + +28:20.080 --> 28:26.320 +missing documentation. We could say the, uh, all of the libraries are treated in the way I mentioned + +28:26.320 --> 28:34.880 +in that, um, JPEG support will be available as long as the JPEG is, is available in our environment + +28:34.880 --> 28:40.320 +and configure script certainly notices that, um, the GNU provided binaries are provided with + +28:40.320 --> 28:47.280 +minus O2. And that's also my default personally on windows. Um, however, and I'm going to skip + +28:47.280 --> 28:59.680 +this since I mentioned it, um, mentioned, uh, and, uh, um, so I guess I'll say, um, you can, + +28:59.680 --> 29:06.560 +um, say with the, it's worth knowing that you, if you're not one reason that, that you're building + +29:06.560 --> 29:11.200 +might be because you want to turn off native compilation for whatever reason. If you have + +29:11.200 --> 29:16.640 +low juices, you get, get, but don't want Emacs to use it. Uh, especially as that default looks like + +29:16.640 --> 29:26.480 +it could be changing with Emacs 30. Um, the, uh, the debug configuration, um, this is, this is the, + +29:26.480 --> 29:33.200 +uh, kind of, uh, what, what I'm currently using this on commentary, uh, I've seen on the next + +29:33.200 --> 29:45.280 +development list. Let's check on our checkout and see if we can't get a build running. Um, + +29:45.280 --> 29:51.440 +this is a release build, so I won't be starting with, uh, so we'll start by hopping into its + +29:51.440 --> 30:14.080 +directory and we, um, we have, uh, but not. Okay. So that tells us we're going to run + +30:14.640 --> 30:23.440 +our configure program, but we don't need to run a config IC. So, + +30:31.280 --> 30:34.320 +so let's get that going and, uh, + +30:36.000 --> 30:41.360 +hopefully that's showing through just enough to be fun, not too much to be distracting. + +30:45.040 --> 30:55.760 +Um, the, uh, the unoptimized, uh, uh, um, please report issues. If your Emacs is crashing, + +30:55.760 --> 31:01.200 +uh, to the Emacs development list, not to me personally. Um, although you are of course, + +31:01.200 --> 31:06.960 +welcome to copy me. Um, if you especially I'm subscribed to that list, so I get all the mail. + +31:06.960 --> 31:14.000 +So I don't mind being copied. Uh, and, uh, as well, if you think it's, uh, + +31:15.040 --> 31:20.160 +you know, related to packaging, that actually makes sense or windows related to even, and, + +31:20.160 --> 31:25.120 +uh, it can be tested with an extra snapshot that should be uploaded to the canoe alpha side. + +31:25.120 --> 31:31.600 +I could look at that if I have time. There's with the configure script to make file for + +31:32.160 --> 31:39.840 +Emacs is really, really complicated. If time permits, which I'm now confident it will not, + +31:39.840 --> 31:44.240 +we will look at, uh, make file that I tried writing that, uh, orchestrates this whole + +31:44.240 --> 31:52.160 +process that I'm talking about. Um, as, uh, let's see. So the build, uh, build process, + +31:52.160 --> 32:03.120 +I run my builds with, uh, explosively specifying the max CPU, uh, with minus J, but minus B one + +32:03.120 --> 32:08.320 +to get the full build, uh, full log into your recipes. That is probably the magic thing. + +32:09.040 --> 32:12.560 +Matt, um, shouldn't to understand what, uh, + +32:16.000 --> 32:23.600 +or that, uh, that, that, uh, that I'm glad that I know, uh, as I'm trying to write my automations, + +32:26.960 --> 32:36.080 +uh, the, um, so I call that out here, the binary, uh, releases. Um, okay. So in this section, + +32:36.080 --> 32:41.120 +we're going to start to get into what are all those files. And there's a bug report related to + +32:41.120 --> 32:46.640 +that, but I didn't get into here. So, um, that's kind of to the point about the less said about + +32:46.640 --> 32:50.800 +this, the better, uh, that's my explanation for stepping through some of these slides. + +32:50.800 --> 32:58.240 +Uh, of course we'll share them all, uh, uh, hopefully by the time that this video is published. + +32:58.960 --> 33:06.640 +Oh, I mentioned, um, I may have mentioned already freshly installed, but, uh, fully installed. Uh, + +33:06.640 --> 33:15.200 +the, the, the key distinction here is that, uh, Emacs is distributed in the binary form for Windows + +33:15.200 --> 33:21.600 +with some DLL files that actually come from the mysys2 project. There's an implication there to + +33:21.760 --> 33:26.160 +there's an implication there to GCC that I definitely want to get to it talking about. + +33:28.080 --> 33:35.840 +Um, so freshly installed means we haven't copied those binaries from the mysys2, uh, + +33:35.840 --> 33:45.360 +installation into the Emacs, uh, installation. Uh, and then, uh, when we re-archived that + +33:45.360 --> 33:48.640 +local Emacs installation, that's how we're going to create the full zip. + +33:48.640 --> 33:54.160 +So hopefully that actually is a pretty good summary of what all those files are. Um, but + +33:54.160 --> 34:00.320 +there are readme files, uh, on the FTP that do a pretty good job, um, if you can dig enough to find + +34:00.320 --> 34:11.120 +one and my apologies for, uh, tardiness getting a new version on that posted. Um, the Emacs, uh, + +34:11.120 --> 34:17.040 +so those dependencies, uh, are listed within Emacs itself. And as we'll just talk about in a moment, + +34:17.040 --> 34:24.240 +there's a way, uh, that we can use, we can access that when we collect them in order to meet, uh, + +34:24.240 --> 34:31.840 +the GCC requirement that is essentially to include, um, include the sources for the, + +34:31.840 --> 34:41.200 +for those binaries, the things that were compiled against. Um, the, uh, so, so here we go, + +34:41.200 --> 34:45.280 +we're, we're into the build process. Let's just take a look and see if configure it got done. + +34:45.280 --> 34:52.240 +It sure did. And now we can see a table of, of hopefully good, but good and bad news, um, + +34:52.240 --> 34:57.840 +and potential, um, where we're learning that we're using the pdumper strategy and any number of other + +34:57.840 --> 35:04.320 +things that we might be messing with as our motivation for, for building ourselves on Emacs. + +35:04.320 --> 35:12.560 +Um, again, this table represents, uh, what you'll, what, what, what it looks like for me when I'm + +35:12.560 --> 35:22.720 +building for the GNU distributed binaries. All right. So, um, kind of moving, moving as quickly + +35:22.720 --> 35:31.200 +as I can here. I'm at 40 after, I believe that's the five minute mark. So, um, having just succeeded + +35:31.200 --> 35:37.040 +in, in configuring Emacs, I don't think we're going to build it. Uh, uh, I don't think we're + +35:37.040 --> 35:42.720 +going to actually get to running make install. Um, but I have it sitting here on my keyboard + +35:43.280 --> 35:54.320 +or clipboard, assuming that we will, right? No. Oh, wow. I think I've managed to confuse this. + +35:54.320 --> 36:06.240 +All right. So for me, that looks simply like, uh, make, uh, V equals one install, uh, + +36:08.160 --> 36:11.040 +prefix equals, uh, + +36:18.400 --> 36:19.920 +and we can at least get it kicked off. + +36:20.640 --> 36:27.680 +And that can, that command is just, uh, just is no, no different than I showed on the slide where + +36:27.680 --> 36:32.160 +I, where I gave it, uh, wasn't planning to stop and explain it. I was just planning to paste it. + +36:33.360 --> 36:38.640 +So, so, so again, recapping the rest of the process here and maybe actually making it, + +36:38.640 --> 36:44.320 +if you can believe it or not, through the rest of these slides, um, we, to, to, to create the + +36:44.800 --> 36:49.600 +full set of binaries, we're going to need a no dependent, no depths archive. That's without the + +36:49.600 --> 36:57.760 +mysys2, uh, deal provided DLLs, just the things that we compile as part of making Emacs. Um, + +37:00.320 --> 37:07.840 +the, uh, the build depths zip script is provided with the source distribution is your tool for, + +37:07.840 --> 37:11.760 +uh, meeting the GPL requirements, right? Source as mentioned before, + +37:12.640 --> 37:18.560 +um, there is a second bug that I did, uh, include some more information on in my notes already. + +37:19.680 --> 37:25.600 +Um, that, uh, that gets into the details of this other feature I alluded to. + +37:26.480 --> 37:35.120 +Um, I'll just skip into that. Um, we, we can, with, with, uh, with a, an appropriate version + +37:35.680 --> 37:42.240 +of that, which you may need a patch, uh, to, to have, you can list out the dependencies + +37:42.240 --> 37:47.200 +and, and that version as well. Can consider the dependencies of the Emacs binary versus + +37:47.200 --> 37:51.680 +the hard-coded list you might find, depending on when you look at this file in the source tree. + +37:53.680 --> 38:01.360 +The diff, um, so I also have a hack here that, uh, works around the absolute requirement to + +38:01.600 --> 38:18.320 +run this with the mysys2 and not the minGW64 script. Um, once we've made that zip file that + +38:18.320 --> 38:25.360 +contain that's, that's our installed Emacs without the DLLs provided by mysys2, we'll then unpack + +38:25.360 --> 38:30.960 +the dependencies that were created by that Python script we just talked about from the Emacs source + +38:30.960 --> 38:38.080 +tree. At that point, once those are unpacked, we can now make what's called the full installer, + +38:38.080 --> 38:42.800 +or sometimes I might call it the unqualified installer, because it's just going to be called + +38:42.800 --> 38:54.800 +Emacs29.1.zip. Um, and that, uh, that file, which, which creates the, the, the, the, the, + +38:54.800 --> 39:02.640 +which creates the archive, uh, that, uh, that, that, that file is exactly the same, + +39:02.640 --> 39:08.400 +plus the, uh, the dependencies that we unzipped in the bin folder of the installed Emacs. + +39:09.680 --> 39:14.480 +The, uh, executable self-installer, which I would love to have more time to talk about. + +39:14.480 --> 39:18.720 +I gave a few pointers here on the hard part of running it. Most importantly, + +39:19.680 --> 39:26.640 +if I've installed in any kind of funny looking name, I end up renaming it to like Emacs-29.1 + +39:26.640 --> 39:35.200 +or Emacs-29. or 30.0.50 or whatever. And I just renamed that installed Emacs folder. + +39:35.200 --> 39:39.680 +And then I go to the root of wherever I created that, the parent directory above it. + +39:40.320 --> 39:46.560 +And that's where I make my copy of the Emacs NSI, um, the, the NSIS script. + +39:47.520 --> 39:55.600 +And, uh, that's also where I, and then, um, then from that parent directory, I execute, + +39:55.600 --> 40:02.560 +uh, making sys, uh, here. I, as mentioned, um, I, I can get away with this because I have it + +40:02.560 --> 40:07.520 +on my path and it's my recollection. I think I tested this and couldn't reproduce the problem. + +40:07.520 --> 40:11.200 +So I didn't document it here, but I've had some problems with running this + +40:11.200 --> 40:20.400 +when, uh, when NSIS wasn't on my path. The, uh, the, the, the final step here + +40:20.400 --> 40:27.600 +and the last, the GPL requirement is to include all the sources, except when I'm doing a release + +40:27.600 --> 40:34.320 +build, I always do this. Um, and that's the new practice when making Snapchat binaries is to go + +40:34.320 --> 40:39.840 +ahead and include the sources, even though we might have the specific revision number, um, + +40:39.840 --> 40:46.800 +our thinking is we want absolute clarity, um, that, that somebody, uh, can say, okay, + +40:46.800 --> 40:51.200 +this binary did this thing, send me the source for it. I'm going to go take that into my own + +40:51.200 --> 40:56.800 +open source, or yeah, maybe they would, the jerks, um, into my own open source project. + +40:56.880 --> 41:03.360 +And, um, you know, off they go, uh, and that needs to be possible. + +41:04.800 --> 41:12.480 +Um, so, um, beyond that, the rest of this is, is really detailed that you find covered in the GNU + +41:12.480 --> 41:19.520 +maintainers manual. Um, this is the, the current set of Windows binaries that, um, it's busily + +41:19.520 --> 41:29.040 +working on creating a like for like a mirror to behind the scenes here is called a 29.1 underscore + +41:29.040 --> 41:36.080 +two. Um, and I have a lot of automation, uh, available on this site. So at this point, + +41:36.080 --> 41:45.200 +I'm just, I think I'm only a minute, 40 seconds over. I'm gonna invite my, uh, co-organizers + +41:45.200 --> 41:49.760 +back onto the call or any volunteers that want to jump in and anybody, if there's people on the + +41:49.760 --> 41:57.440 +BBB, I'd be happy to take questions. If there aren't, um, I have a screen full of, uh, the + +41:57.440 --> 42:04.080 +automation stuff ready to go as a kind of a second ring in my circus today. So if you're still with + +42:04.080 --> 42:08.640 +me, thanks a lot for joining me. And I really enjoyed this talk. Uh, if this is where we're + +42:08.640 --> 42:14.560 +going to close it out, I don't know where we're at for schedule today. Thanks a lot for a great + +42:14.560 --> 42:20.880 +talk, Corwin. Um, in terms of like schedule, yeah, you went over a little bit for the official, + +42:20.880 --> 42:26.880 +like, um, schedule or time of your talk, but I think, uh, we actually have maybe like six or + +42:26.880 --> 42:32.640 +seven more minutes, um, here on stream for, um, questions and such, if folks have questions, + +42:32.640 --> 42:38.320 +or if you want to like quickly maybe show one or two more things. Um, but I think the hard stuff + +42:38.320 --> 42:43.520 +is about like maybe 10 minutes ish for now. And then we'll have to rush over to, um, uh, for the + +42:43.520 --> 42:55.520 +closing remarks. So, well, that sounds awesome. Okay. So I'm looking at the, the dev chat. Uh, + +42:55.520 --> 43:01.040 +I see a comment on cross-compiling the emacs, but I'm sorry, I'm looking at IRC primarily, but, + +43:01.040 --> 43:08.080 +uh, feel free to jump in if you're on, uh, BBB with me, or, uh, uh, if, if you put something on + +43:08.160 --> 43:16.400 +the pad, I'm sure, uh, we'll see it between the two of us, uh, over here. Okay. So cross-compiling + +43:16.400 --> 43:20.640 +emacs for Serenity. I haven't tried really any cross-compiling. I think that would be very + +43:20.640 --> 43:28.240 +interesting. I would most likely focus on doing exactly what I do on a GNU system, completely + +43:28.240 --> 43:35.760 +ditching. Um, so I guess with my, my remaining time, rather than walking through code, um, for + +43:35.760 --> 43:42.080 +my automation, which can be another talk, if in fact there's an interest in that, um, I want to, + +43:42.080 --> 43:48.480 +I guess, say a couple of words about the non-free operating system that I'm using here. I did my + +43:48.480 --> 43:58.880 +best to use no non-free software other than the, uh, the operating system that is the context for + +43:58.880 --> 44:07.920 +this talk in preparing this talk for you. I personally have a lot more, uh, time and energy, + +44:07.920 --> 44:15.840 +I have to say, invested in proprietary tools for doing a lot of the things that, that go into this. + +44:15.840 --> 44:22.000 +So I really respect the work of people that pull that off. Um, I'm sorry I didn't get my pre-recorded + +44:22.000 --> 44:30.320 +stuff, uh, kind of in order for everybody, but I just want to stress, like, uh, it is all absolutely + +44:30.320 --> 44:35.520 +possible and just hats off to everybody that, that used, uh, entirely free software to get their, + +44:36.240 --> 44:43.360 +get their recordings done in time. Um, and what you did see, unless it was provided by the operating + +44:43.360 --> 44:49.200 +system in my presentation today, was all, uh, free software with the debatable exception of + +44:49.200 --> 44:56.160 +NSYS, which styles itself as open source, maybe for, uh, marketing reasons. + +44:56.720 --> 45:00.400 +Okay, uh, in any case, uh, certainly we can get all that source. + +45:08.080 --> 45:14.640 +Thanks for the note, Corin. It's good to know that, uh, building or, uh, yeah, doing the build of Emacs + +45:14.720 --> 45:20.880 +for Windows on Windows can be done, uh, using only free software. Yeah, absolutely. + +45:23.440 --> 45:29.520 +Probably the right closing note, right? Um, I just, uh, thanks again to the organizers for + +45:29.520 --> 45:33.920 +bearing with me. And like, every time I was like, you guys, I'm terrible at this. They're just like, + +45:33.920 --> 45:38.240 +no, you're doing fine. Keep going. You did a great job live last time. You can do it live, + +45:38.240 --> 45:43.040 +you know, and, and saying all the right things to just, uh, encourage me to come back, + +45:43.920 --> 45:46.160 +uh, this year and every year. + +45:49.760 --> 45:53.520 +Well, as I said before, we were very lucky to have you and the rest of the team, of course, + +45:53.520 --> 45:59.520 +as well. And, um, goes without saying, but all the speakers and the audience, the participants as + +45:59.520 --> 46:14.240 +well. So, um, so, uh, are we, we're still live over here that, you know, you know, me, I'm the + +46:14.240 --> 46:22.800 +Mike Hogg that I am. I can't resist, um, throwing, throwing up another screen here. And, uh, in fact, + +46:22.800 --> 46:32.160 +let's go ahead and go back to our, to our crawler, right? And I'll bring back our build + +46:32.160 --> 46:40.480 +if it finishes and maybe we'll show making the installer as well. Um, uh, but I have the CPU + +46:40.480 --> 46:49.680 +account turned down a little bit here. Uh, note, I didn't specify minus J here. Um, so, uh, over + +46:49.680 --> 46:54.000 +here is my automation. Uh, in case you do want to take a look, I can at least provide the + +46:54.000 --> 46:59.760 +orientation of what you're looking at. Scrape log is probably my first thing I want to show off. + +46:59.760 --> 47:08.400 +Um, it's not beautiful, but this works, uh, pretty well for me to get a sense of something might + +47:08.400 --> 47:14.640 +have changed in terms of how many warnings or errors are happening when I build Emacs. So I + +47:14.720 --> 47:18.640 +have this whole automation going on and I frequently want to answer the question, + +47:19.280 --> 47:25.600 +you know, what's the change rate in, uh, warnings or what have you. So this kind of gives me a count + +47:26.400 --> 47:36.880 +of that. Um, so from there, uh, accrued CI is the script we're watching run in the other pane. + +47:37.840 --> 47:44.960 +Um, we can see it's, uh, just starting to do its thing again. + +47:48.800 --> 47:56.960 +And, uh, the make file I mentioned, this is a top-down rewrite of everything else that I've done. + +47:57.040 --> 48:08.640 +It has some bugs right now. Um, the, uh, the build distribution is the main script that I use for my + +48:08.640 --> 48:17.120 +personal builds. This is what is run by the crude CI script. Uh, it has a fun tie-in to this, uh, + +48:17.120 --> 48:23.200 +web interface here, um, where we can, you don't need the port number when you go to it. That's + +48:23.200 --> 48:33.680 +just if I'm going to post. Um, the, uh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This, this script is + +48:33.680 --> 48:39.120 +really long and complicated and probably needs some diving into, but you can see that, um, one + +48:39.120 --> 48:43.760 +of the complexities I have to deal with is that I'm going to need something in the format of an + +48:43.840 --> 48:53.920 +emacs-version for strategic, um, nsys reasons. So, uh, it takes care of kind of every complexity + +48:54.480 --> 49:03.120 +that I mentioned today in some respects, um, as does the make file. Build release is, um, another + +49:03.120 --> 49:11.360 +fairly useful incarnation of this. This is just focused on the release process, and this does + +49:11.360 --> 49:18.800 +work, uh, for example, to create the, the, the, you know, like, like, well, I could like, uh, + +49:18.800 --> 49:25.600 +for like files as far as I can tell. So what are currently posted for emacs 29.1 and the release + +49:25.600 --> 49:32.400 +candidate. Um, so I'll probably use that next time. And if it's still like, for like, I'll + +49:32.400 --> 49:40.960 +probably post the ones that came from this. Um, uh, building, uh, TreeSitter, I make some DLLs + +49:40.960 --> 49:47.120 +there. If you're looking for hints on how to get going or just simply, uh, a huge long list + +49:47.120 --> 49:55.840 +of Git repositories that make grammars, you can use that is here as well. Um, finally, I mentioned + +49:55.840 --> 50:04.800 +I have a, um, I have a website where I publish my own personal snapshots that I make, uh, that + +50:04.800 --> 50:11.680 +folder full of install directories, but all of the usual GNU style binary distributables, including + +50:11.680 --> 50:22.320 +the source code and the source code for the dependencies. Um, the, uh, so this program is + +50:22.320 --> 50:27.680 +another one of those complicated find commands and therefore potentially the most useful thing + +50:27.680 --> 50:34.960 +in here to take to you. Um, and here I'm deleting, uh, binaries older than 17 years. Uh, everything + +50:34.960 --> 50:42.240 +except the, uh, node apps file and the sources of it you'll find on my website. Currently those + +50:42.240 --> 50:48.800 +indefinitely, I'll probably roll out 120 days or something, um, for those eventually. + +50:53.600 --> 51:00.400 +Oh, uh, I can talk about this one even. Um, the, uh, so here you'll see the two branches that I'm + +51:00.400 --> 51:06.560 +tracking. The job of this script is, uh, this runs on the website. I call it with a, like a remote + +51:06.560 --> 51:15.920 +rsync, uh, type, uh, or an SSA remote, uh, SSH command. Um, and right after the rsync, + +51:15.920 --> 51:26.080 +rsyncing up any new Emacs that I built. And, uh, it's, uh, it's job is to update my fancy + +51:26.080 --> 51:34.880 +directory indexing. So let's look at Corwin's website. Here's my Emacs 29 folder. + +51:37.360 --> 51:50.400 +We have about two more minutes, Corwin. Yeah. It'll take that entire two minutes to, uh, + +51:50.400 --> 51:56.400 +load this directory because I am, because I have not yet ever pruned any of these dang binaries. + +51:56.400 --> 52:02.800 +So every version of, uh, Emacs 29 that I've ever made for myself is probably here. Nice. + +52:03.600 --> 52:08.480 +Uh, I strongly recommend that you bookmark this folder if you're using these for something and + +52:08.480 --> 52:14.240 +you always want the latest. Um, so here, this particular, uh, latest 29, Emacs 29 latest, + +52:14.240 --> 52:22.560 +or simply replace the 29 with 30 to get those. Uh, alas, no, no such luck for TreeSetter. + +52:23.120 --> 52:26.320 +But if we look at, uh, that, + +52:36.400 --> 52:40.320 +live this long without making a typo. Now look at me. + +52:40.320 --> 52:46.080 +Uh-oh. Oh. + +52:51.520 --> 52:56.720 +So here, um, you know, we can see the icon application and so on, even in the TreeSetter + +52:56.720 --> 53:01.440 +folder. This is all I'm talking about, about the fanciness that's set up by that other script that + +53:02.400 --> 53:06.880 +I'm showing over here and run after each time I run the upload. It just + +53:07.840 --> 53:12.640 +looks to see if anything's new and add some lines to the .htaccess file. + +53:15.840 --> 53:22.400 +Um, I'm particularly proud of this one. I'm not going to lie. Um, linking out to each, + +53:22.400 --> 53:26.560 +each, uh, project that we're using, letting us know the commit version, + +53:26.560 --> 53:34.320 +and then, uh, for the DLLs, quick link out to the log and the signature file for this DLL. Um, + +53:36.960 --> 53:46.160 +I find that a lot, just a lot more readable than, uh, listing them all out individually. And I'd + +53:46.160 --> 53:53.360 +love to do something like that on the GNU site. So I'm, I think we've got to be out of time by + +53:53.360 --> 53:59.600 +now. I've just got to say, hey, thanks again for having me, uh, for those that, uh, watch the talk + +53:59.600 --> 54:04.400 +either live or after the conference. Uh, appreciate everyone's support to get me to + +54:04.400 --> 54:10.320 +the point where I will be able to, uh, to do this, this, this cool volunteer task, + +54:10.320 --> 54:14.160 +uh, which is fun and easy to do and reach out to me if you're interested in helping with it. + +54:18.960 --> 54:24.320 +Well, awesome. Thanks a lot for the awesome talk, Corbyn. And, uh, of course, as a fellow + +54:24.320 --> 54:29.920 +core, uh, core organizer, uh, for all, for all that you do, um, in and around Emacs Conf + +54:29.920 --> 54:33.280 +and of course for, uh, GNU Emacs as well, it's much appreciated. + +54:36.160 --> 54:43.200 +Big, big words from coming from you, my friend. Um, thanks for the kind words. + +54:45.040 --> 54:49.840 +Cheers. My pleasure. All right. And with that, I think we're gonna, uh, wrap up the dev, uh, + +54:49.840 --> 54:55.360 +track here and, uh, we'll be with you again shortly in a few minutes on the gen stream, + +54:55.360 --> 55:00.400 +the gen track for the closing remarks for today, um, only for today, because we're going to be + +55:00.400 --> 55:07.520 +back tomorrow again as well. So don't go anywhere and, uh, see you on the gen track in a bit. + +55:25.920 --> 55:32.720 +Oh my God, I did it. We got done within the time. You're my hero. Um, and thank you so + +55:32.720 --> 55:41.520 +much for just keeping me honest there and, uh, like helping me keep my eye on the time and such. + +55:41.520 --> 55:53.680 +You have to look at the recording and see whether you feel like doing it again. + +55:56.160 --> 55:59.520 +I'm sorry. I had my sound screwed up and I'm sorry if I talked over somebody, + +55:59.520 --> 56:01.680 +I couldn't hear anything on mumble until this very moment. + +56:03.520 --> 56:08.960 +Oh, uh, because he's your webcam for it. Um, like as a, like a virtual webcam thingy, + +56:09.440 --> 56:15.760 +it was low res, especially when things are changing as you're scrolling around. So we'll + +56:15.760 --> 56:19.920 +see what kind of recording we can recover from it. And then you can decide whether you maybe + +56:19.920 --> 56:26.480 +want to clean it up with like screenshots. I recorded on this end too. We shouldn't have + +56:26.480 --> 56:30.720 +that problem with my recording. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I think we're still live on the + +56:30.720 --> 56:42.240 +dev stream. Someone could, uh, take that off. Oh, yes. Because, uh, I'll, I'll set it to rebroadcast. + +56:45.520 --> 56:50.640 +Yeah. I love doing that for the closing remarks. That's a fine tradition + +56:52.000 --> 56:58.480 +or it's a tradition now. Cause I'm pretty sure this means we've done it twice. + +57:01.680 --> 57:07.360 +I once heard that, you know, uh, as a fan-ish meaning like a fan-ish is a term of endearment + +57:07.360 --> 57:12.240 +for a science fiction fan to another. We say we're, we're fans or things we do are fan-ish and + +57:12.800 --> 57:18.960 +a fan-ish tradition then is if you do it three times, it's tradition, but we're on a budget here. + +57:19.680 --> 57:31.600 +So, all right. I think we should, um, head over to mumble and talk on mumble. Um, and just decide + +57:31.600 --> 57:36.240 +and see like which big blue button room we're going to be in for closing. Okay. So we're clear + +57:36.240 --> 57:39.600 +on BBB here? Yep. I think so. + diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-world--gnu-emacs-a-world-of-possibilities--anand-tamariya--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-world--gnu-emacs-a-world-of-possibilities--anand-tamariya--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..c510cc30 --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-world--gnu-emacs-a-world-of-possibilities--anand-tamariya--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,314 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:07.359 +[Speaker 0]: Okay, folks. Thanks, Anand, + +00:00:11.259 --> 00:00:11.759 +for the great talk. So here is the live Q&A. + +00:00:22.279 --> 00:00:22.420 +Hi. Hello. I see questions being posted on + +00:00:23.920 --> 00:00:24.099 +the pad. Would you like me to read them out + +00:00:25.320 --> 00:00:25.820 +or would you prefer to read them yourself? + +00:00:31.880 --> 00:00:32.220 +[Speaker 1]: Okay. I'll try reading it out. + +00:00:33.340 --> 00:00:33.680 +If there are audio issues, + +00:00:35.420 --> 00:00:35.920 +[Speaker 0]: Sure, thanks. + +00:00:37.360 --> 00:00:37.760 +[Speaker 1]: just let me know. A lot of what you showed + +00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:40.280 +was the type of stuff Emacs didn't do very + +00:00:43.040 --> 00:00:43.200 +well. This stuff looks like it could be + +00:00:45.020 --> 00:00:45.239 +useful for using Emacs with a touch screen + +00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:47.460 +and a tablet. Have you used it for purposes + +00:00:53.160 --> 00:00:53.360 +like this? No right now it's more proof of + +00:00:58.580 --> 00:00:58.780 +concept stage so I don't use it more than you + +00:01:03.420 --> 00:01:03.920 +know just making some demo software. + +00:01:12.100 --> 00:01:12.320 +The next question is, is there a mode for + +00:01:15.080 --> 00:01:15.280 +using FFmpeg through Emacs or did you make it + +00:01:20.160 --> 00:01:20.660 +yourself? Okay so this is something that I + +00:01:26.800 --> 00:01:27.300 +built. So the base of it is XWidget in Emacs, + +00:01:28.160 --> 00:01:28.660 +which is already there. + +00:01:35.080 --> 00:01:35.380 +But then I had to add a few control code for + +00:01:42.240 --> 00:01:42.500 +controlling VLC. So ffmpeg is like a shell + +00:01:46.840 --> 00:01:47.340 +command that finally stitches those bits of + +00:01:51.780 --> 00:01:52.280 +video clips. But what actually plays is VLC, + +00:01:55.860 --> 00:01:56.360 +and it's not FFmpeg. Hope that's clear. + +00:02:03.580 --> 00:02:04.020 +The next question is these demos are always + +00:02:06.020 --> 00:02:06.180 +so impressive. Do you plan to upstream any of + +00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:07.540 +these projects into Emacs? + +00:02:13.940 --> 00:02:14.240 +Right now, okay, let me read the complete + +00:02:16.220 --> 00:02:16.320 +questions. These demos are always so + +00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:18.080 +impressive. Do you plan to upstream any of + +00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:20.280 +these projects into Emacs or to publish them + +00:02:21.780 --> 00:02:22.280 +as, for example, helper packages? + +00:02:26.480 --> 00:02:26.980 +So right now, as it stands, + +00:02:30.720 --> 00:02:30.940 +I personally don't intend to do that because + +00:02:34.900 --> 00:02:35.400 +I don't have that time but I have signed my + +00:02:38.720 --> 00:02:39.220 +signed assignment copyright assignment so + +00:02:41.600 --> 00:02:41.760 +anybody has time and motivation to do it they + +00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:47.620 +can pick up the code and help me with that. + +00:02:53.200 --> 00:02:53.700 +The next is, how did you make that electronic + +00:03:00.600 --> 00:03:00.860 +circuit diagram? Is there a mode with the + +00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:03.060 +symbols already available. + +00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:08.460 +Okay so electronic circuit diagram is you + +00:03:13.340 --> 00:03:13.520 +know the canvas mode but and what you see is + +00:03:19.540 --> 00:03:20.040 +the is an extension of that canvas mode which + +00:03:25.440 --> 00:03:25.940 +uses a symbol library. + +00:03:31.980 --> 00:03:32.300 +And so The only difference is you press + +00:03:34.160 --> 00:03:34.660 +capital L to open up that symbol library. + +00:03:37.700 --> 00:03:37.840 +In this case, this symbol library happens to + +00:03:41.380 --> 00:03:41.720 +be just a library of electronic symbols. + +00:03:44.640 --> 00:03:44.820 +It can be any category of symbols and then + +00:03:47.600 --> 00:03:48.100 +you and use it to draw on your, + +00:03:50.640 --> 00:03:51.140 +in the canvas major mode. + +00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:02.540 +Next question is, I have seen your blog post + +00:04:04.700 --> 00:04:04.960 +with some of these features But can you link + +00:04:06.280 --> 00:04:06.420 +to the repo where you are doing the + +00:04:07.940 --> 00:04:08.440 +development for these packages? + +00:04:18.899 --> 00:04:19.200 +Sure, I can do that Most of these are + +00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:20.779 +available on my blogs. + +00:04:26.200 --> 00:04:26.480 +Typically the Reddit post always has a link + +00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:31.680 +to my blog. But I'll post it in this 1 as + +00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:32.180 +well. + +00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:48.700 +[Speaker 0]: I'll quickly note that we have about 4 more + +00:04:52.540 --> 00:04:52.800 +minutes of live Q&A, but if folks have more + +00:04:55.320 --> 00:04:55.720 +questions, they're welcome to either continue + +00:04:59.060 --> 00:04:59.240 +asking on the pad or come join us here on Big + +00:05:02.080 --> 00:05:02.220 +Blue Button and continue chatting once the + +00:05:03.440 --> 00:05:03.800 +stream moves on to the next talk. + +00:05:03.940 --> 00:05:04.440 +Thank you. + +00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:13.860 +[Speaker 1]: Yes, so here's the link. + +00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:23.560 +And so right now, all of my development goes + +00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:26.600 +into a single development branch in this + +00:05:28.940 --> 00:05:29.140 +repository. But depending on the feature that + +00:05:31.500 --> 00:05:31.680 +you're looking at, you can look at that + +00:05:33.820 --> 00:05:33.960 +particular post and that post will have a + +00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:37.320 +link to the specific files that include the + +00:05:37.320 --> 00:05:37.820 +changes. + +00:06:24.236 --> 00:06:24.304 +Okay, there's a feedback. + +00:06:26.520 --> 00:06:26.740 +Thank you for showing so many new + +00:06:27.500 --> 00:06:28.000 +possibilities with Emacs. + +00:06:30.960 --> 00:06:31.460 +I'm glad you like those possibilities. + +00:06:32.540 --> 00:06:32.760 +And hopefully, you know, + +00:06:34.540 --> 00:06:34.740 +with Emacs, the possibilities are really + +00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:38.980 +endless. So I really encourage more people to + +00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:41.620 +explore it and, you know, + +00:06:49.280 --> 00:06:49.780 +try things that people have so far only been + +00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:52.660 +using other applications for. + +00:06:59.580 --> 00:07:00.080 +The next question is coming up. + +00:07:07.540 --> 00:07:08.040 +Okay, the PDF form filling is especially + +00:07:10.200 --> 00:07:10.400 +interesting. I would love to do my taxes in + +00:07:16.400 --> 00:07:16.620 +Emacs. Yes, In most cases you should be able + +00:07:18.900 --> 00:07:19.400 +to do it unless there are a lot of JavaScript + +00:07:20.500 --> 00:07:21.000 +involved with the PDF. + +00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:24.960 +For a simple form, you should be able to do + +00:07:24.960 --> 00:07:25.460 +it. + +00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:19.640 +[Speaker 0]: Okay, we have about 1 minute remaining on the + +00:08:21.660 --> 00:08:22.000 +live stream. If folks have any other + +00:08:24.960 --> 00:08:25.120 +questions, please do continue posting on the + +00:08:27.540 --> 00:08:27.800 +pad or come and join BigBlueButton with an + +00:08:28.940 --> 00:08:29.140 +ad. And thanks again, Adam, + +00:08:30.880 --> 00:08:31.080 +for a great talk and for the discussions and + +00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:32.059 +questions and answers. + +00:08:36.100 --> 00:08:36.600 +[Speaker 1]: Great, thanks. diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-writing--emacs-turbocharges-my-writing--jeremy-friesen--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-writing--emacs-turbocharges-my-writing--jeremy-friesen--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..97601987 --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-writing--emacs-turbocharges-my-writing--jeremy-friesen--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,893 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:01.020 --> 00:00:01.400 +[Speaker 0]: All right, I've started the recording, + +00:00:02.840 --> 00:00:03.240 +so Sasha, you don't need to worry about this. + +00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:04.500 +Hi Jeremy, how are you doing? + +00:00:06.660 --> 00:00:07.160 +[Speaker 1]: I'm doing great, how about you? + +00:00:08.940 --> 00:00:09.380 +[Speaker 0]: I am also doing great, + +00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:11.780 +I am feeling replenished after this lunch + +00:00:13.980 --> 00:00:14.179 +break and I am happy to go back for 4 more + +00:00:16.699 --> 00:00:16.940 +[Speaker 1]: Me too. Let me + +00:00:16.940 --> 00:00:17.303 +[Speaker 0]: hours of conferences. just, + +00:00:19.700 --> 00:00:20.200 +yeah great, Let me just put up the questions. + +00:00:22.260 --> 00:00:22.440 +So Jeremy is going to read the questions and + +00:00:24.279 --> 00:00:24.380 +answer them and I will be doing jazz hands in + +00:00:26.439 --> 00:00:26.599 +the background or provide any bits of + +00:00:28.520 --> 00:00:28.860 +information I may, considering that Orgrim + +00:00:29.800 --> 00:00:30.080 +has been mentioned during the presentation + +00:00:31.480 --> 00:00:31.980 +and everyone's going to want to ask me. + +00:00:37.440 --> 00:00:37.940 +at... Show me? Yeah, go. + +00:00:38.980 --> 00:00:39.280 +[Speaker 1]: So I'm looking I'm looking at the, + +00:00:40.800 --> 00:00:41.160 +do you think the line numbers for writing + +00:00:42.720 --> 00:00:43.220 +documents is kind of a distraction, + +00:00:46.780 --> 00:00:47.280 +especially for notes? No, + +00:00:49.800 --> 00:00:50.300 +I do software development and that left + +00:00:52.660 --> 00:00:53.160 +fringe is kind of invisible, + +00:00:55.760 --> 00:00:56.260 +but I do like to use jump to line. + +00:00:59.380 --> 00:00:59.580 +So I just bind that to control L and it's + +00:01:00.700 --> 00:01:01.200 +helpful to just see that. + +00:01:04.400 --> 00:01:04.900 +So no, I haven't noticed that. + +00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:07.540 +There are other ways to jump around in Emacs, + +00:01:09.640 --> 00:01:10.140 +but I like to have many different ways. + +00:01:16.960 --> 00:01:17.120 +So, yeah. Then how do you manage private and + +00:01:18.340 --> 00:01:18.840 +public data with your Zettelkasten? + +00:01:22.940 --> 00:01:23.440 +1 of my blockers on putting my Zettelkasten + +00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:26.240 +on the web is I don't want everything to be + +00:01:28.360 --> 00:01:28.860 +public, especially fleeting notes. + +00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:36.500 +So 1 thing is I only explicitly export a file + +00:01:38.940 --> 00:01:39.380 +to Hugo and I have that, + +00:01:41.000 --> 00:01:41.500 +I can like, I can export this. + +00:01:42.880 --> 00:01:43.380 +That doesn't show up very well. + +00:01:50.080 --> 00:01:50.280 +So it's export probably export org to take on + +00:01:52.360 --> 00:01:52.860 +rules and we'll export the buffer. + +00:01:56.540 --> 00:01:57.040 +And then any that I referenced, + +00:01:57.800 --> 00:01:58.300 +like these are all links, + +00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:04.380 +any notes that are not public will be + +00:02:06.360 --> 00:02:06.480 +exported as the text, but there won't be a + +00:02:09.860 --> 00:02:10.160 +link to it. So it's having the very + +00:02:11.640 --> 00:02:12.140 +deliberate, this is going up. + +00:02:14.580 --> 00:02:15.080 +And so I send it over into Hugo, + +00:02:16.700 --> 00:02:17.200 +which is its own repository, + +00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:21.300 +and either massage it there or whatnot. + +00:02:25.260 --> 00:02:25.760 +Is that any further questions on that 1? + +00:02:29.700 --> 00:02:30.200 +[Speaker 0]: I don't think so. + +00:02:36.580 --> 00:02:36.940 +[Speaker 1]: Is there anything special you're using from + +00:02:38.860 --> 00:02:38.960 +org to Hugo markdown? This looks like a + +00:02:41.020 --> 00:02:41.520 +really nice setup. I like to give it a try. + +00:02:46.920 --> 00:02:47.420 +Yes, there I have a bespoke build process. + +00:02:49.600 --> 00:02:50.100 +Having started in WordPress, + +00:02:50.820 --> 00:02:51.320 +working through Jekyll, + +00:02:54.020 --> 00:02:54.200 +going to Hugo, and then switching from + +00:02:57.440 --> 00:02:57.740 +Markdown to org mode, I've backed into this + +00:02:58.680 --> 00:02:59.180 +private public Zettelkasten, + +00:03:04.440 --> 00:03:04.840 +which is really nice. And I have added quite + +00:03:07.500 --> 00:03:08.000 +a bit of code. There's my dog. + +00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:16.020 +[Speaker 0]: blogging. + +00:03:20.420 --> 00:03:20.720 +[Speaker 1]: In my So I have, how do I export like side + +00:03:22.300 --> 00:03:22.800 +notes because I want I have marginalia + +00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:24.780 +instead of like the footnotes, + +00:03:26.580 --> 00:03:27.080 +but I still use org mode footnotes. + +00:03:29.540 --> 00:03:29.700 +And so I've got a bunch of these things and + +00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:32.800 +this is all available up on GitHub And I'll + +00:03:34.200 --> 00:03:34.700 +provide a link in the document. + +00:03:41.980 --> 00:03:42.280 +Yeah, so there's quite a bit of making the + +00:03:43.940 --> 00:03:44.440 +export work how I want it. + +00:03:48.440 --> 00:03:48.840 +And I've been kind of fiddling with also + +00:03:51.060 --> 00:03:51.560 +improving like LaTeX or PDF export. + +00:03:58.580 --> 00:03:59.080 +So yeah, I have a long running to do item to + +00:04:02.380 --> 00:04:02.880 +fully lay out my bespoke build process. + +00:04:04.180 --> 00:04:04.680 +Because once it gets to Hugo, + +00:04:07.300 --> 00:04:07.440 +there's also additional work that I do to + +00:04:11.320 --> 00:04:11.820 +compile what is kind of a personal, + +00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:13.620 +like a digital garden-ish, + +00:04:16.440 --> 00:04:16.940 +it's really a blog focused 1. + +00:04:27.700 --> 00:04:28.080 +So yeah, it's at Jeremy F on GitHub at dot + +00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:33.060 +Emacs. And you'll be looking for JF + +00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:36.300 +blogging.l that has some of this. + +00:04:42.080 --> 00:04:42.580 +Also jforgmode.l will have some of that. + +00:04:49.140 --> 00:04:49.540 +Yeah, I wanna circle back to that, + +00:04:51.340 --> 00:04:51.560 +anything to prevent private links from + +00:04:53.720 --> 00:04:54.220 +getting accidentally being made publicly + +00:05:01.960 --> 00:05:02.440 +accessible. Yes. So previous to using denote, + +00:05:06.140 --> 00:05:06.480 +I also used org-roam. So I have this idea of + +00:05:12.060 --> 00:05:12.560 +a node in org-roam has roam refs. + +00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:15.660 +And org-roam is much more robust about that. + +00:05:17.380 --> 00:05:17.880 +So anytime you mention a ref, + +00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:20.300 +it will count it as a backlink. + +00:05:23.200 --> 00:05:23.700 +So for example, if my node was my blog, + +00:05:25.200 --> 00:05:25.700 +take on rules, anytime, + +00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:30.420 +anywhere in my org Rome repository, + +00:05:31.620 --> 00:05:32.120 +I mentioned takeonrules.com, + +00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:34.980 +it would treat it as a backlink. + +00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:37.980 +So from that Rome refs, + +00:05:45.140 --> 00:05:45.640 +I have a, I will interrogate, + +00:05:47.520 --> 00:05:47.800 +and this is not the function for I will look + +00:05:50.440 --> 00:05:50.940 +at the node to see does it have a Rome ref + +00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:53.760 +and if it does I will treat it as a public + +00:05:57.680 --> 00:05:58.180 +link. So I don't I haven't bled out any + +00:06:01.400 --> 00:06:01.620 +private information because again going back + +00:06:05.500 --> 00:06:06.000 +to I only publish a document and the document + +00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:09.060 +I'm explicitly doing so and then my process + +00:06:12.280 --> 00:06:12.720 +filters out any links that do not have public + +00:06:16.840 --> 00:06:17.140 +URLs. It will just dump it in there as maybe + +00:06:20.280 --> 00:06:20.640 +a span with a ref class of it so that I can + +00:06:22.340 --> 00:06:22.840 +kind of know that that came from there. + +00:06:33.240 --> 00:06:33.740 +Yes, So the font I am using is, + +00:06:37.960 --> 00:06:38.460 +so this is another font. + +00:06:40.640 --> 00:06:41.140 +What font were you using in EWW? + +00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:50.420 +I think I'm using IOS Becca and ET Bembo. + +00:06:52.680 --> 00:06:53.180 +[Speaker 0]: Okay, show me your EWW. + +00:06:54.860 --> 00:06:55.360 +If we are doing full ricing setup, + +00:06:58.260 --> 00:06:58.440 +I can recognize Yosefka just by looking at + +00:06:58.440 --> 00:06:58.940 +it. + +00:07:01.100 --> 00:07:01.300 +[Speaker 1]: So let's... Yeah, so yeah, + +00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:06.240 +ET Bembo, I'm using these 2 fonts as kind of + +00:07:08.760 --> 00:07:09.260 +my anchor. So the variable pitch is ETBembo. + +00:07:13.140 --> 00:07:13.640 +My blog started off with a Tufta style CSS + +00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:16.360 +and I really pared it down and got rid of any + +00:07:19.820 --> 00:07:19.940 +of the additional fonts because they can be + +00:07:21.340 --> 00:07:21.580 +used as trackers. And I'm like, + +00:07:23.860 --> 00:07:24.020 +nope, you decide what font you want for your + +00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:26.420 +browser. I don't need to tell you what looks + +00:07:33.420 --> 00:07:33.680 +good for you. Yeah, so the story of Take On + +00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:37.480 +Rules, I have to thank my partner and lovely + +00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:41.180 +wife for that. She kind of nudged me to do + +00:07:42.840 --> 00:07:43.080 +some blogging, and we spent some time + +00:07:44.700 --> 00:07:45.160 +thinking about it. And originally, + +00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:48.220 +it started off as writing about rules for + +00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:51.060 +role-playing games or tabletop games. + +00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:54.860 +And it has extended far beyond that. + +00:07:56.260 --> 00:07:56.760 +The blog, as I've shifted, + +00:07:58.160 --> 00:07:58.660 +as I think I mentioned in the presentation, + +00:08:01.500 --> 00:08:01.640 +as I've shifted towards an everything and + +00:08:04.980 --> 00:08:05.180 +nothing approach, the blog is anything I want + +00:08:05.740 --> 00:08:06.240 +to write about anymore. + +00:08:08.940 --> 00:08:09.440 +There's haikus up there with some regularity. + +00:08:16.780 --> 00:08:17.280 +So the name is now a relic of a past. + +00:08:21.180 --> 00:08:21.680 +So yeah, the thing and nothing is, + +00:08:24.140 --> 00:08:24.640 +and I put that in the about on my blog. + +00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:29.440 +So it's, I highly encourage like, + +00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:34.440 +I feel great. Once I like said, + +00:08:36.539 --> 00:08:36.740 +oh, I don't have to write this towards a + +00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:40.100 +topical blog post or like what the topic is, + +00:08:43.620 --> 00:08:44.120 +it freed it up. And I know that it comes at a + +00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:47.500 +potential compromise because it's very much + +00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:51.960 +me being a voice up there instead of + +00:08:53.300 --> 00:08:53.760 +something that is curated and filtered + +00:08:55.760 --> 00:08:56.060 +through a specific channel like I could have + +00:08:59.160 --> 00:08:59.340 +a technical blog but I decided I'm just gonna + +00:09:02.160 --> 00:09:02.420 +tag it as programming or emacs and let you + +00:09:04.340 --> 00:09:04.840 +find it and you can subscribe to the rss + +00:09:06.860 --> 00:09:07.360 +feeds of each tag that you find applicable + +00:09:13.500 --> 00:09:13.840 +[Speaker 0]: right thank you so we are we are at the last + +00:09:15.860 --> 00:09:16.100 +question on the pad but I see that some + +00:09:18.160 --> 00:09:18.480 +people have joined us on the blue button. + +00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:22.420 +So, hi everyone! We have about 6 minutes + +00:09:23.980 --> 00:09:24.220 +until we need to go to the next talk, + +00:09:26.280 --> 00:09:26.460 +but if anyone has a question on the blue + +00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:28.780 +button, I'm thinking about James who's joined + +00:09:32.580 --> 00:09:32.780 +us and who was kind enough to drop a thank + +00:09:33.660 --> 00:09:33.940 +you line on the blue button. + +00:09:35.280 --> 00:09:35.460 +Do you want to unmute yourself and ask a + +00:09:39.340 --> 00:09:39.520 +question maybe? I'm not putting pressure by + +00:09:41.180 --> 00:09:41.680 +the way, I don't feel like you need to but it + +00:09:43.780 --> 00:09:44.060 +just... I speak all the time otherwise I'm + +00:09:45.400 --> 00:09:45.720 +very happy to spend time with our speakers + +00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:48.700 +you know but you know EmacsConf it's about, + +00:09:50.800 --> 00:09:51.300 +as Sasha told you during the intro, + +00:09:53.680 --> 00:09:54.180 +it's about making people take things, + +00:09:55.840 --> 00:09:56.100 +brilliant things out of their mind and put + +00:09:57.340 --> 00:09:57.840 +them outside in the public. + +00:10:00.380 --> 00:10:00.660 +And for us, you know, we get to see the talk + +00:10:01.500 --> 00:10:01.720 +evolve, we talk with people. + +00:10:03.680 --> 00:10:03.840 +So for us we are already quite cognizant of + +00:10:05.760 --> 00:10:06.260 +the topic and the point is not for us hosts + +00:10:09.560 --> 00:10:09.780 +to ask questions, it's mostly for you to ask + +00:10:11.420 --> 00:10:11.580 +questions and then we worry about all the + +00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:12.940 +fancy stuff in the background. + +00:10:15.860 --> 00:10:16.080 +Otherwise you damn well know I will ask + +00:10:18.160 --> 00:10:18.660 +questions about org-roam, + +00:10:20.160 --> 00:10:20.460 +about links, and nodes in general, + +00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:22.100 +because that's my bread and butter. + +00:10:27.260 --> 00:10:27.440 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I should add, like, + +00:10:31.640 --> 00:10:31.820 +the process of migrating the data from a + +00:10:35.020 --> 00:10:35.220 +WordPress export to markdown to org mode by + +00:10:39.180 --> 00:10:39.680 +way of Pandoc was, it was really insightful + +00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:42.900 +to help me understand how I want the data to + +00:10:47.380 --> 00:10:47.580 +flow and how I could create a repository for + +00:10:50.540 --> 00:10:50.940 +me of information and 1 that I could then + +00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:52.540 +send out into the world, + +00:10:53.100 --> 00:10:53.600 +the public information, + +00:10:57.660 --> 00:10:58.160 +while not having to worry about the private + +00:10:59.780 --> 00:11:00.280 +things that I might want to keep. + +00:11:03.800 --> 00:11:04.240 +So it was that process of just working + +00:11:08.740 --> 00:11:08.940 +through it to reflect on how I'm writing and + +00:11:10.860 --> 00:11:11.360 +what I started using writing for. + +00:11:13.820 --> 00:11:14.040 +I think Richard Feynman said, + +00:11:15.260 --> 00:11:15.680 +no, writing is my thinking. + +00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:17.740 +What I wrote is thinking. + +00:11:20.980 --> 00:11:21.480 +So it has helped to really frame that. + +00:11:23.940 --> 00:11:24.440 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I mean, there's an interesting + +00:11:28.940 --> 00:11:29.220 +ambivalent relationship because it feels like + +00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:31.800 +writing helps thinking and thinking helps + +00:11:35.220 --> 00:11:35.340 +writing in a way and nowhere have I + +00:11:37.420 --> 00:11:37.920 +personally been more aware of this than when + +00:11:40.800 --> 00:11:41.000 +coming up with networks of notes because it + +00:11:43.620 --> 00:11:43.860 +really I mean you use whichever word you want + +00:11:45.560 --> 00:11:45.900 +you know a second brain a collection of notes + +00:11:48.460 --> 00:11:48.860 +a slip box a repository of notes whichever + +00:11:51.780 --> 00:11:52.080 +the tool you use the point at the end is to + +00:11:53.800 --> 00:11:54.000 +resonate with you. It's kind of like + +00:11:57.100 --> 00:11:57.280 +extending those moments of consciousness that + +00:11:58.380 --> 00:11:58.880 +you have when you take your notes, + +00:12:02.280 --> 00:12:02.780 +and you make the entire gradient available. + +00:12:06.140 --> 00:12:06.380 +Sorry, I heard Sasha whispering in my ear + +00:12:07.860 --> 00:12:08.360 +sometimes. It's pretty pleasant. + +00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:10.500 +It's really shocking. + +00:12:14.540 --> 00:12:15.040 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, Aaron, you had a question. + +00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:17.440 +Do I use denote just for my blogs or do I use + +00:12:18.160 --> 00:12:18.660 +it for other purposes? + +00:12:24.620 --> 00:12:25.120 +I use denote for all of my note taking and + +00:12:28.160 --> 00:12:28.660 +almost, I think it's exclusively org mode + +00:12:30.060 --> 00:12:30.560 +that I, that I use it in. + +00:12:33.180 --> 00:12:33.400 +But what I really appreciated in the + +00:12:37.020 --> 00:12:37.500 +consideration that Proc put forward was the + +00:12:40.640 --> 00:12:40.940 +file name encodes the information that's + +00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:45.980 +relevant. So it has helped me be able to + +00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:48.580 +query by using things like ripgrep, + +00:12:54.220 --> 00:12:54.480 +well not ripgrep, tree or I forget any more + +00:12:59.640 --> 00:13:00.140 +what I use. But having that the file encodes + +00:13:03.580 --> 00:13:03.820 +useful information. And it's so much more + +00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:06.960 +relevant when I look at having worked at a + +00:13:10.280 --> 00:13:10.520 +university that rolled out Google Drive to + +00:13:12.680 --> 00:13:12.840 +everyone without any guidance on how to + +00:13:15.780 --> 00:13:16.120 +organize stuff. And I worked at a library and + +00:13:19.180 --> 00:13:19.540 +it was just a nightmare watching things show + +00:13:22.340 --> 00:13:22.840 +up where you could never find it again. + +00:13:27.560 --> 00:13:28.060 +So, file name, the file name having the date, + +00:13:33.060 --> 00:13:33.280 +having the title and having tags just made so + +00:13:34.280 --> 00:13:34.780 +much sense to be findable. + +00:13:40.920 --> 00:13:41.420 +And yeah, I really do just use org. + +00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:47.220 +But if I am going to make txt files or other + +00:13:51.540 --> 00:13:52.040 +files, I have started adopting that structure + +00:13:52.340 --> 00:13:52.840 +and format. + +00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:00.900 +[Speaker 0]: Right. Well, Jeremy, we have about 1 minute + +00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:03.080 +and 30 seconds left until we go on to the + +00:14:04.920 --> 00:14:05.140 +next talk. Do you have any final words + +00:14:06.500 --> 00:14:06.740 +regarding your presentation or maybe where + +00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:08.400 +people can find you? I know you've already + +00:14:08.940 --> 00:14:09.240 +mentioned this but... + +00:14:12.660 --> 00:14:13.160 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, take on rules. I'm also on dice camp + +00:14:17.780 --> 00:14:18.080 +dice.campmastodon at take on rules and I've + +00:14:21.580 --> 00:14:22.080 +thought about emacs.h but we federate well So + +00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:27.560 +I appreciate that. And I can stay on and + +00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:29.680 +answer any further questions if folks have + +00:14:29.680 --> 00:14:30.180 +it. + +00:14:34.620 --> 00:14:34.860 +[Speaker 0]: Sure. So sorry. Sorry, + +00:14:36.660 --> 00:14:36.820 +I confused myself with the buttons talking to + +00:14:38.520 --> 00:14:38.960 +production and all. Well then, + +00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:41.260 +what I'm going to do is that the stream is + +00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:43.740 +going to move on to the next talk in about 50 + +00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:46.160 +seconds. If people want to join and ask any + +00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:49.160 +questions, feel free to join on the blue + +00:14:51.220 --> 00:14:51.380 +button. The link is on the talk page or on + +00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:54.480 +IRC. And feel free to hang out as long as you + +00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:56.160 +want to ask as many questions as you want to + +00:14:58.080 --> 00:14:58.180 +Jeremy. We are recording all of this and + +00:15:00.040 --> 00:15:00.540 +we'll be publishing this later on once again. + +00:15:02.900 --> 00:15:03.080 +And all that's left for me to do is to thank + +00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:05.580 +you so much, Jeremy, for your presentation + +00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:08.200 +and your answers. And I will see you another + +00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:08.700 +time. + +00:15:14.340 --> 00:15:14.840 +[Speaker 1]: So yeah, plasma strike. + +00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:18.500 +I'm not able to grant speaking powers. + +00:15:21.660 --> 00:15:22.160 +So if you wanted to type up something + +00:15:22.160 --> 00:15:22.660 +question-wise. + +00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:26.000 +[Speaker 0]: Oh, okay. I'll manage this in the background. + +00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:28.220 +So we're moving on to the next talk. + +00:15:29.860 --> 00:15:30.240 +We'll figure out the things about VBB, + +00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:32.940 +But in the meantime, enjoy the next talk. + +00:15:35.060 --> 00:15:35.460 +Bye. All right, Jeremy. + +00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:37.080 +We are now on the next talk. + +00:15:39.140 --> 00:15:39.240 +Sorry about having to mention multiple things + +00:15:42.040 --> 00:15:42.500 +at the same time. Speaking rights. + +00:15:44.060 --> 00:15:44.440 +I will try fixing this in the background. + +00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:46.120 +I need to get moving for the next talk, + +00:15:47.800 --> 00:15:48.040 +but I'll do it in the background and we'll + +00:15:49.160 --> 00:15:49.660 +let you know as soon as it's ready. + +00:15:49.860 --> 00:15:50.360 +[Speaker 1]: We're doing great. Okay. + +00:15:51.820 --> 00:15:52.320 +[Speaker 0]: Alright, bye bye Jeremy. |