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diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-mentor--mentoring-vscoders-as-an-emacsian-or-how-to-show-not-tell-people-about-the-wonders-of-emacs--jeremy-friesen--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-mentor--mentoring-vscoders-as-an-emacsian-or-how-to-show-not-tell-people-about-the-wonders-of-emacs--jeremy-friesen--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..3fc25b4e --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-mentor--mentoring-vscoders-as-an-emacsian-or-how-to-show-not-tell-people-about-the-wonders-of-emacs--jeremy-friesen--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,4486 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:09.880 +[Speaker 0]: 2 seconds. And I think we are live. + +00:00:10.760 --> 00:00:11.260 +Hi, Jeremy, how are you doing? + +00:00:11.840 --> 00:00:12.040 +[Speaker 1]: All right. I'm doing all right. + +00:00:12.380 --> 00:00:12.880 +How about you? + +00:00:14.759 --> 00:00:15.060 +[Speaker 0]: I'm doing great as well. + +00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:16.640 +I'm really happy to see all the talk that + +00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:19.100 +we're having. And I was particularly excited + +00:00:21.880 --> 00:00:22.240 +when I got your proposal for this talk + +00:00:24.080 --> 00:00:24.279 +because mentoring, as I was telling you + +00:00:25.040 --> 00:00:25.540 +during the check-in process, + +00:00:27.360 --> 00:00:27.779 +is a subject dear to my heart. + +00:00:28.700 --> 00:00:29.200 +So I'm really excited, + +00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:30.920 +not only for the talk that you've just done, + +00:00:32.200 --> 00:00:32.360 +but also for the question that people are + +00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:33.380 +going to ask you. + +00:00:35.760 --> 00:00:36.020 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I'm looking forward to answering some + +00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:39.880 +questions. Mentoring is also something near + +00:00:43.860 --> 00:00:44.320 +and dear. Something I did not mention is when + +00:00:45.620 --> 00:00:45.820 +folks would ask me, like, + +00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:47.460 +what was your most important class? + +00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:49.199 +Or I said, oh, easy, easy, + +00:00:50.180 --> 00:00:50.680 +easy, high school English. + +00:00:54.160 --> 00:00:54.480 +Like, it's my whatever your primary written + +00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:56.820 +and spoken languages I think is the most + +00:00:58.860 --> 00:00:59.360 +useful skill as a programmer + +00:01:05.379 --> 00:01:05.580 +[Speaker 0]: right so as usual people if you want to ask + +00:01:09.520 --> 00:01:09.660 +questions to Jeremy, feel free to find the + +00:01:11.440 --> 00:01:11.940 +link to the other pad either on the talk page + +00:01:15.440 --> 00:01:15.720 +or on IRC. We're also going to open the chat + +00:01:17.320 --> 00:01:17.720 +so that people can join us and ask questions. + +00:01:20.380 --> 00:01:20.660 +Let me just make sure that I tell Sasha can + +00:01:25.440 --> 00:01:25.580 +you open ID Mentor. All right so in the + +00:01:27.320 --> 00:01:27.520 +meantime what we'll do is that I'll be + +00:01:29.660 --> 00:01:29.860 +reading questions of the pad and Jeremy will + +00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:31.480 +be answering them whilst we wait for you to + +00:01:32.800 --> 00:01:33.280 +join. Now just to be clear with the time, + +00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:34.820 +we have a little bit of time now, + +00:01:36.040 --> 00:01:36.540 +a little more time than before. + +00:01:39.520 --> 00:01:39.720 +We have 22 minutes, so until 10 of the next + +00:01:41.260 --> 00:01:41.400 +hours to answer as many questions as + +00:01:42.520 --> 00:01:42.900 +possible. And believe me, + +00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:45.200 +if you people watching right now are not + +00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:47.440 +asking questions, I will be asking plenty of + +00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:50.340 +them. So please, save Jeremy from my + +00:01:53.800 --> 00:01:54.300 +[Speaker 1]: I look forward to it. + +00:01:55.320 --> 00:01:55.820 +[Speaker 0]: inquisitive mind. All right. + +00:01:56.960 --> 00:01:57.460 +Starting with the first question, + +00:01:59.240 --> 00:01:59.680 +a very trivial 1, perhaps, + +00:02:01.720 --> 00:02:01.920 +but always 1 that I ask myself when I look at + +00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:04.340 +a keyboard. Regarding super key, + +00:02:05.980 --> 00:02:06.480 +which key do you bind to super? + +00:02:09.620 --> 00:02:10.120 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so my left command, + +00:02:12.180 --> 00:02:12.680 +which is on a Mac keyboard, + +00:02:16.620 --> 00:02:17.120 +so the key right to the left of the space bar + +00:02:20.860 --> 00:02:21.000 +is super. And the key immediately to the + +00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:23.400 +right of spacebar, which is the right command + +00:02:24.320 --> 00:02:24.820 +key, is bound to hyper, + +00:02:28.140 --> 00:02:28.640 +which opens up a whole new suite of keys. + +00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:31.280 +And I thought it would take a little bit to + +00:02:33.160 --> 00:02:33.660 +get used to, but it's been amazing. + +00:02:37.800 --> 00:02:38.300 +So I definitely recommend having a hyper + +00:02:38.440 --> 00:02:38.940 +binding. + +00:02:42.440 --> 00:02:42.720 +[Speaker 0]: I will, yes. I was also going to say super + +00:02:43.860 --> 00:02:44.160 +binding. No, it's a hyper binding. + +00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:45.040 +We already have super. + +00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:47.280 +It's your Windows key or your Linux key or + +00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:48.740 +whatever you want to call it. + +00:02:51.140 --> 00:02:51.640 +But I will warn people though, + +00:02:57.720 --> 00:02:58.200 +it's the gateway into fancy keyboard setups + +00:03:00.900 --> 00:03:01.400 +because it starts, it's the Trojan horse of + +00:03:02.700 --> 00:03:03.140 +fancy keyboard setup. Just, + +00:03:04.320 --> 00:03:04.820 +oh I wish I could have another modifier. + +00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:07.280 +And then many years later, + +00:03:09.160 --> 00:03:09.280 +you find yourself with this little thing that + +00:03:11.260 --> 00:03:11.760 +I'm showing, which is a fully customized QMK + +00:03:12.100 --> 00:03:12.600 +keyboard. + +00:03:13.540 --> 00:03:14.040 +[Speaker 2]: All right. + +00:03:18.200 --> 00:03:18.700 +[Speaker 1]: Following on that, then meta is to the left + +00:03:21.880 --> 00:03:22.080 +of super, and then control is to the left of + +00:03:26.720 --> 00:03:26.940 +meta. And also, caps lock maps to control as + +00:03:31.380 --> 00:03:31.620 +well. Definitely tried a bunch of tap for + +00:03:35.460 --> 00:03:35.940 +this and that on a programmable keyboard, + +00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:39.520 +but I have settled on keep it simple and use + +00:03:41.580 --> 00:03:41.780 +something like carabiner elements to do most + +00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:46.640 +[Speaker 0]: Right. It's good that you were able to stop + +00:03:48.480 --> 00:03:48.760 +there. I wish I'd stopped there at some point + +00:03:50.940 --> 00:03:51.340 +[Speaker 1]: of the mapping. It was a terrible moment + +00:03:52.900 --> 00:03:53.000 +where I'm like, oh, what have I done when I + +00:03:53.760 --> 00:03:54.200 +was trying to type once? + +00:03:57.500 --> 00:03:58.000 +[Speaker 0]: in my life. All right, + +00:03:58.920 --> 00:03:59.420 +moving on to the next question. + +00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:01.560 +Great talk. What's the package you used to + +00:04:02.120 --> 00:04:02.620 +make the org slide? + +00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:03.740 +[Speaker 1]: So yeah, it's great. Yeah, + +00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:13.940 +so I am using Protz Logos and have, + +00:04:15.660 --> 00:04:16.160 +I think, like, Olivet mode. + +00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:20.140 +I'll post a link to the configuration for + +00:04:21.019 --> 00:04:21.260 +turning it on and off. + +00:04:24.280 --> 00:04:24.680 +But it's basically narrow region to an org + +00:04:27.940 --> 00:04:28.220 +heading, which is, I find that to be super + +00:04:30.300 --> 00:04:30.800 +helpful. Don't have to fiddle with it. + +00:04:32.900 --> 00:04:33.120 +[Speaker 0]: Right, just to be clear, + +00:04:34.920 --> 00:04:35.140 +it's Olivetti, right? I think that's the... + +00:04:36.460 --> 00:04:36.960 +[Speaker 1]: Oh yeah, Olivetti, yeah. + +00:04:39.960 --> 00:04:40.120 +[Speaker 0]: A typical Italian word that is really tough + +00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:42.880 +to pronounce between Europeans and people in + +00:04:46.080 --> 00:04:46.400 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I had a... For some reason I dropped + +00:04:48.940 --> 00:04:49.440 +the I at the end. So in my head + +00:04:52.660 --> 00:04:52.800 +[Speaker 0]: the US. Yeah, moving to the next question if + +00:04:54.440 --> 00:04:54.800 +people do get interested in picking up emacs + +00:04:56.520 --> 00:04:56.680 +because of what they see you do How do you + +00:04:58.260 --> 00:04:58.440 +recommend they say they get into it? + +00:04:58.440 --> 00:04:58.940 +Oh + +00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:06.020 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so I've been I think a lot of it comes + +00:05:09.620 --> 00:05:09.780 +down to what are the problems that they're + +00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:11.880 +trying to solve. And so I walked them through + +00:05:15.460 --> 00:05:15.660 +my journey. I worked in TextMate for a long + +00:05:16.980 --> 00:05:17.480 +time, then Sublime, then Atom. + +00:05:20.220 --> 00:05:20.720 +And then in 2020, I hopped over to Emacs, + +00:05:25.080 --> 00:05:25.580 +started writing in it and I chose Space Max + +00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:27.180 +and then I chose Doom. + +00:05:28.140 --> 00:05:28.640 +And then I was like, wait, + +00:05:33.080 --> 00:05:33.280 +start over, erase everything and just do the + +00:05:36.620 --> 00:05:36.760 +tutorial. So I did the tutorial and then I + +00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:38.000 +started writing and I was like, + +00:05:39.520 --> 00:05:40.020 +oh, I really want this functionality. + +00:05:43.380 --> 00:05:43.580 +And so I went and I looked for it and I + +00:05:44.060 --> 00:05:44.560 +installed the package. + +00:05:46.060 --> 00:05:46.560 +And then I got the functionality, + +00:05:47.960 --> 00:05:48.120 +went back to writing, and I'm like, + +00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:50.080 +oh, my editor should really be able to do + +00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:52.500 +this. And I thought about it. + +00:05:55.380 --> 00:05:55.520 +So a lot of it came down to the experience of + +00:05:56.320 --> 00:05:56.820 +what they're trying to accomplish. + +00:06:00.900 --> 00:06:01.260 +And really helping ask them that. + +00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:04.900 +I had 1 mentee had used Vim for a long time + +00:06:07.700 --> 00:06:07.940 +and then was exploring using Evil Mode and + +00:06:13.100 --> 00:06:13.260 +Emacs and we had conversations and it was + +00:06:16.840 --> 00:06:17.220 +like go back to Vim like you were using VS + +00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:19.280 +Code just go back to Vim and they went back + +00:06:20.980 --> 00:06:21.420 +to Vim and then they started writing, + +00:06:22.760 --> 00:06:23.260 +well, they went to NeoVim and they started + +00:06:27.620 --> 00:06:27.900 +writing Lua plugins for stuff and it just + +00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:29.980 +helped free them and they gained that + +00:06:31.320 --> 00:06:31.820 +ownership in their text editor. + +00:06:37.520 --> 00:06:37.660 +So I try to have them think through what are + +00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:40.440 +the common tasks that they're trying to + +00:06:44.180 --> 00:06:44.440 +accomplish and then thinking in terms of + +00:06:46.320 --> 00:06:46.480 +that. So instead of going and finding a + +00:06:48.340 --> 00:06:48.560 +solution, understand the problems they're + +00:06:52.180 --> 00:06:52.320 +experiencing, which tends to be what we + +00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:53.860 +should do in software development. + +00:06:57.720 --> 00:06:58.220 +Instead of implementing the solve a problem. + +00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:02.500 +Sometimes It's fun to implement an idea. + +00:07:04.840 --> 00:07:05.220 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I think it's really the crux, + +00:07:06.740 --> 00:07:07.120 +really, when it comes to software + +00:07:08.760 --> 00:07:09.060 +development, because what is at the crux of + +00:07:09.520 --> 00:07:09.960 +any kind of engineering? + +00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:11.840 +Well, it's the problem you're trying to + +00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:13.680 +solve. If you've got 2 islands and you need + +00:07:14.440 --> 00:07:14.860 +to join them up together, + +00:07:15.840 --> 00:07:16.340 +well, I need to build a bridge. + +00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:17.660 +Now, obviously with software, + +00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:19.940 +we have problems that defy the law of + +00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:21.840 +physics, which is great because we get very + +00:07:23.520 --> 00:07:23.720 +complex problems that are very exciting to + +00:07:26.380 --> 00:07:26.880 +solve. But when it comes to onboarding people + +00:07:28.180 --> 00:07:28.680 +into those ways of solving problems, + +00:07:29.540 --> 00:07:30.040 +well, I think mentoring, + +00:07:32.980 --> 00:07:33.480 +The key behind mentoring is that together, + +00:07:35.280 --> 00:07:35.460 +we're going to look at a problem and we're + +00:07:37.200 --> 00:07:37.680 +going to try to see how high would fix it. + +00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:40.740 +And you're going to try to appreciate whether + +00:07:42.280 --> 00:07:42.440 +this is something you would do as well or + +00:07:43.260 --> 00:07:43.760 +would like to do. + +00:07:50.080 --> 00:07:50.580 +[Speaker 1]: Yep, Absolutely. Yeah, + +00:07:54.340 --> 00:07:54.480 +it's really taking time to walk with them on + +00:07:56.500 --> 00:07:57.000 +the journey to understand what's frustrating + +00:07:59.700 --> 00:08:00.040 +them. I have a coworker we've been working + +00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:01.740 +together for a very long time. + +00:08:05.280 --> 00:08:05.780 +She is not a fast navigator of her editor, + +00:08:08.860 --> 00:08:09.200 +but as we've talked, that's not where she's + +00:08:09.960 --> 00:08:10.460 +looking to get better. + +00:08:17.380 --> 00:08:17.680 +She's looking to get better at asking the + +00:08:20.500 --> 00:08:20.740 +questions of the clients early so that we + +00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:23.660 +don't go down long paths of implementation. + +00:08:27.940 --> 00:08:28.320 +So it's been great because she's not looking + +00:08:29.820 --> 00:08:30.060 +to get better at her text editor. + +00:08:32.500 --> 00:08:33.000 +She's adequate for how she navigates. + +00:08:34.700 --> 00:08:34.900 +Other people look and they're like, + +00:08:35.740 --> 00:08:36.179 +man, I want to do it faster. + +00:08:36.820 --> 00:08:37.120 +I want to do it different. + +00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:38.340 +I want to do it better. + +00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:39.980 +And then we have a different conversation. + +00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:44.720 +[Speaker 0]: Right. All right. Moving on to the next + +00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:47.320 +question. I've been using Emacs for about 30 + +00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:49.240 +years and I find it really difficult to + +00:08:50.860 --> 00:08:51.200 +figure out how to help people get started + +00:08:54.400 --> 00:08:54.600 +with it So I guess my question is the same as + +00:08:55.680 --> 00:08:55.900 +the green question right about it. + +00:08:57.900 --> 00:08:58.100 +I think it's slightly different though You + +00:09:00.860 --> 00:09:01.360 +could it is more about well go on please. + +00:09:01.500 --> 00:09:02.000 +Yeah + +00:09:06.900 --> 00:09:07.400 +[Speaker 1]: so My wife a while ago, + +00:09:10.680 --> 00:09:11.180 +talked about the idea of, + +00:09:15.860 --> 00:09:16.260 +relative to anybody, I am an expert or + +00:09:19.020 --> 00:09:19.200 +slightly more informed on a topic than the + +00:09:20.380 --> 00:09:20.880 +person quote behind me. + +00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:22.600 +And there's a person ahead of me who's + +00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:24.740 +slightly more informed than I am. + +00:09:27.880 --> 00:09:28.120 +And so what we're looking at is perhaps with + +00:09:28.820 --> 00:09:29.320 +30 years of experience, + +00:09:32.580 --> 00:09:32.780 +introducing someone to Emacs might be + +00:09:35.780 --> 00:09:35.920 +difficult because you've you're too much of + +00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:41.320 +an expert. So maybe the there's a an idea of + +00:09:42.380 --> 00:09:42.880 +like what are the principles of pedagogy. + +00:09:45.180 --> 00:09:45.360 +I know we that was talked about yesterday in + +00:09:47.180 --> 00:09:47.300 +a presentation about like here's a + +00:09:49.160 --> 00:09:49.280 +constraint, you're using Emacs for the + +00:09:54.660 --> 00:09:54.880 +course. But so it's that idea of sharing what + +00:09:56.880 --> 00:09:57.380 +you have, where you're at, + +00:10:00.220 --> 00:10:00.720 +will, I think by nature, + +00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:03.860 +move the entire queue of people, + +00:10:04.940 --> 00:10:05.380 +like they don't really exist. + +00:10:06.380 --> 00:10:06.680 +I mean, they do, but they don't. + +00:10:08.600 --> 00:10:09.100 +Behind you, it'll help move them together + +00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:10.820 +forward just a little bit. + +00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:13.940 +And maybe we all move the condition together. + +00:10:17.760 --> 00:10:18.240 +So It's not a only 1 person kind of thing. + +00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:22.540 +It's a mindset of improving shared + +00:10:22.540 --> 00:10:23.040 +understanding. + +00:10:26.520 --> 00:10:26.640 +[Speaker 0]: Exactly, and I'd like to come back on + +00:10:28.180 --> 00:10:28.680 +something that you mentioned in your answer, + +00:10:30.940 --> 00:10:31.440 +because it's, you know, + +00:10:33.060 --> 00:10:33.460 +what the person asking the question + +00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:35.740 +mentioned, 30 years of advance, + +00:10:36.620 --> 00:10:36.860 +basically, on starting Emacs. + +00:10:37.900 --> 00:10:38.400 +You know, that's a lot of time, + +00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:41.020 +And you tend to equate this to a massive gap + +00:10:42.440 --> 00:10:42.940 +in terms of skills between the 2 people. + +00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:47.840 +And whilst it's obvious that would be a gap + +00:10:50.280 --> 00:10:50.460 +of skills. You know, I find that learning in + +00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:55.460 +terms of pedagogy works best when the person + +00:10:58.180 --> 00:10:58.320 +doing the teaching is very close in terms of + +00:11:00.380 --> 00:11:00.880 +skill levels to the person being taught. + +00:11:02.620 --> 00:11:03.120 +Why is it the case? It's because it's much + +00:11:05.660 --> 00:11:05.800 +fresher in their memory what are the + +00:11:08.100 --> 00:11:08.300 +different elements that they have to go + +00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:09.940 +through to acquire a particular skill. + +00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:12.940 +To go a little bit into the theory, + +00:11:14.640 --> 00:11:15.060 +I'm not sure if you're familiar with Vygotsky + +00:11:16.380 --> 00:11:16.860 +or at least the I plus 1. + +00:11:17.640 --> 00:11:17.860 +Are you familiar with this, + +00:11:20.540 --> 00:11:21.040 +[Speaker 1]: I am not, go on. + +00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:23.000 +[Speaker 0]: Jeremy? So I used to be a teacher before, + +00:11:24.520 --> 00:11:24.960 +and it's 1 of the things they taught us. + +00:11:26.920 --> 00:11:27.340 +It's about the fact that when you are trying + +00:11:28.900 --> 00:11:29.400 +to make someone acquire a skill, + +00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:32.340 +I represents the current knowledge, + +00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:35.160 +and plus 1 is the thing that you should be + +00:11:38.920 --> 00:11:39.060 +teaching them and the theory behind it is + +00:11:41.820 --> 00:11:42.040 +that it's much easier to teach someone to + +00:11:44.260 --> 00:11:44.500 +teach something to someone when they only + +00:11:46.100 --> 00:11:46.460 +have to focus on plus 1 i.e. + +00:11:48.460 --> 00:11:48.900 +Something that is very close nearby to them + +00:11:50.580 --> 00:11:50.840 +If you go with something that is I plus 2, + +00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:53.740 +I plus 3, or god forbid I plus 10, + +00:11:55.760 --> 00:11:55.960 +it's going to be much harder for them to get + +00:11:58.100 --> 00:11:58.360 +to the understanding because the distance is + +00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:01.960 +much greater. And that's why I think + +00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:05.320 +mentoring can be taken in 2 ways. + +00:12:07.740 --> 00:12:07.860 +It could be a mentor who's merely ahead of + +00:12:10.380 --> 00:12:10.760 +you by plus 1, or it could be a mentor that + +00:12:12.040 --> 00:12:12.440 +is ahead of you by plus 10, + +00:12:14.380 --> 00:12:14.640 +but who has the understanding of what plus 1, + +00:12:15.800 --> 00:12:16.300 +plus 2, and plus 3 is. + +00:12:22.680 --> 00:12:23.160 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, and it can be very challenging to + +00:12:27.400 --> 00:12:27.540 +unwind that. I know if we think about all of + +00:12:33.540 --> 00:12:33.740 +our hands or input methods have a memory of + +00:12:35.920 --> 00:12:36.120 +something that I honestly couldn't tell you + +00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:38.940 +what it is. Right? Like, + +00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:40.740 +I know how to do it on a keyboard, + +00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:43.980 +right? We've internalized so much. + +00:12:47.900 --> 00:12:48.040 +And so, yeah, how to walk backward is a + +00:12:51.940 --> 00:12:52.200 +distinct challenge and being curious with + +00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:56.100 +them and close to them and not asking, + +00:13:00.300 --> 00:13:00.800 +trying to diffuse questions and not ask like + +00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:03.620 +leading, not overly leading. + +00:13:09.280 --> 00:13:09.780 +An example, early on in my mentoring career, + +00:13:11.260 --> 00:13:11.760 +I was working in a community project, + +00:13:14.280 --> 00:13:14.480 +and I really wanted to go in and say to + +00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:18.500 +everybody, why do we suck at sharing code? + +00:13:21.020 --> 00:13:21.520 +But instead I said, wait a minute, + +00:13:24.880 --> 00:13:25.080 +what would be the question I could ask the + +00:13:27.680 --> 00:13:28.180 +group in which I could then ask my question? + +00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:30.720 +So instead I went into the group and I said, + +00:13:32.560 --> 00:13:33.060 +how are we doing about sharing code? + +00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:37.620 +And collectively, we were able to establish + +00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:39.700 +we didn't feel very good about it. + +00:13:42.740 --> 00:13:43.240 +And that conversation now 9 years ago, + +00:13:47.020 --> 00:13:47.300 +helped move a process along for the last, + +00:13:50.220 --> 00:13:50.380 +like it gave it energy for 9 years of how + +00:13:51.560 --> 00:13:52.060 +we're sharing and how we're approaching + +00:13:58.260 --> 00:13:58.760 +stuff. So yeah, the curious questions are + +00:14:00.060 --> 00:14:00.560 +super helpful. + +00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:04.940 +[Speaker 0]: All right, lovely way to finish this point. + +00:14:06.940 --> 00:14:07.200 +We have about 10 more minutes so I'm glad + +00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:08.800 +that we have a little bit of extra time to + +00:14:10.640 --> 00:14:10.920 +answer the questions because we have a little + +00:14:13.740 --> 00:14:13.940 +more. All right, I'm gonna switch to the next + +00:14:15.160 --> 00:14:15.480 +question we can come back to people reacting + +00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:17.220 +to what you just said a little bit later. + +00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:17.640 +[Speaker 2]: Sure. + +00:14:20.640 --> 00:14:20.860 +[Speaker 0]: All right, have you encountered anyone that + +00:14:23.760 --> 00:14:24.000 +are being negative about the fact that you're + +00:14:26.400 --> 00:14:26.600 +using Emacs, assuming that they just don't + +00:14:28.740 --> 00:14:28.940 +know or have misconceptions about Emacs and + +00:14:30.340 --> 00:14:30.700 +nothing malicious? If so, + +00:14:32.220 --> 00:14:32.720 +how do you handle these kinds of people? + +00:14:40.640 --> 00:14:40.840 +[Speaker 1]: Sure, So at work, I get a gentle elbowing of + +00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:43.220 +like, oh, Jeremy's going to talk about Emacs + +00:14:45.900 --> 00:14:46.400 +again. So it's not entirely... + +00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:51.100 +Maybe it's a little dismissive, + +00:14:56.840 --> 00:14:57.340 +but I don't actually care because like it's + +00:15:00.160 --> 00:15:00.240 +like being, I don't know, + +00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:02.480 +it's like being made fun of for using a + +00:15:03.560 --> 00:15:04.060 +particular type of pen. + +00:15:05.680 --> 00:15:06.180 +Like goal is to write something, + +00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:09.580 +right? And I'm using a pen that gives me joy. + +00:15:11.740 --> 00:15:12.240 +When I talk with my mentees, + +00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:14.440 +like I want to meet them exactly where + +00:15:16.980 --> 00:15:17.200 +they're at with their code and like what + +00:15:20.860 --> 00:15:21.260 +they're comfortable with and help them remove + +00:15:23.100 --> 00:15:23.600 +any of that potential like inadequacy, + +00:15:27.800 --> 00:15:27.980 +sense of inadequacy or imposter syndrome or + +00:15:32.980 --> 00:15:33.480 +any of those things because The goal is to, + +00:15:36.380 --> 00:15:36.880 +for me, to be better at computering. + +00:15:39.800 --> 00:15:40.300 +Like hop on my computer. + +00:15:45.060 --> 00:15:45.220 +I want to be able to use it at a speed of + +00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:47.800 +thought that doesn't introduce a lot of + +00:15:50.660 --> 00:15:51.160 +friction. Another speaker talked about that + +00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:54.200 +using HyperBowl and a couple of plugins to + +00:15:55.260 --> 00:15:55.760 +write stream of consciousness. + +00:15:57.980 --> 00:15:58.480 +And that was an important consideration. + +00:16:01.060 --> 00:16:01.380 +I want my text editor to flow with me. + +00:16:02.160 --> 00:16:02.420 +And so I'm like, well, + +00:16:03.560 --> 00:16:04.060 +Emacs flows with me smooth. + +00:16:08.220 --> 00:16:08.720 +Like you can deride it all you want. + +00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:10.360 +It doesn't thread very well, + +00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:12.580 +but it's just me on this machine. + +00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:14.440 +I don't need it to overly thread, + +00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:16.220 +at least for my use cases. + +00:16:22.340 --> 00:16:22.600 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I can only agree 100% with what you've + +00:16:25.800 --> 00:16:26.300 +just said. And it's very easy to dismiss + +00:16:28.860 --> 00:16:29.160 +stuff like Vim or Emacs based on the very + +00:16:31.260 --> 00:16:31.760 +trite sentences that everyone use. + +00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:32.640 +But at the end of the day, + +00:16:33.540 --> 00:16:34.040 +I really like what you said. + +00:16:36.280 --> 00:16:36.780 +Those are just pencil that we're using to + +00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:39.280 +express ourselves. And we're doing something + +00:16:41.820 --> 00:16:42.080 +a little more fancy than just writing words + +00:16:43.680 --> 00:16:44.180 +on a page. But ultimately, + +00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:46.880 +It's just text at the very bottom. + +00:16:48.560 --> 00:16:49.060 +So whatever helps us write this test, + +00:16:50.540 --> 00:16:51.040 +this text more easily, + +00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:53.460 +you know, it's always good. + +00:16:56.680 --> 00:16:56.980 +Yeah. All right. Moving on to the next + +00:16:59.360 --> 00:16:59.820 +question. I love the attitudes and worldview + +00:17:02.980 --> 00:17:03.160 +that infuse your blog post and your talk this + +00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:05.900 +weekend. Learn something every week. + +00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:08.680 +It's cumulative. English class was the most + +00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:11.520 +important. What other advice do you have and + +00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:13.859 +how is it generalizable to those of us who + +00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:14.940 +are not devs? + +00:17:26.280 --> 00:17:26.780 +[Speaker 1]: Sure. So I think 1 of the really big changes + +00:17:29.140 --> 00:17:29.320 +for me, and I talked about this in the + +00:17:34.700 --> 00:17:35.200 +writing Q&A, is switching my blog from a + +00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:38.480 +topical 1 about role-playing games and board + +00:17:43.320 --> 00:17:43.480 +games into anything that I think I want to + +00:17:47.220 --> 00:17:47.440 +write. And that shift happened about the time + +00:17:50.380 --> 00:17:50.560 +that I was really exploring using Emacs for + +00:17:54.060 --> 00:17:54.560 +writing. And so previously I had, + +00:17:57.860 --> 00:17:58.360 +I would write blog posts in Markdown using, + +00:18:00.560 --> 00:18:01.060 +or I would write it in the web interface. + +00:18:06.820 --> 00:18:07.060 +And getting to the point where my writing was + +00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:08.980 +the same as my coding, + +00:18:12.040 --> 00:18:12.540 +was the same as my RSS consumption, + +00:18:15.060 --> 00:18:15.560 +was the same of a lot of these things, + +00:18:21.260 --> 00:18:21.560 +freed up my general interests so that they + +00:18:23.860 --> 00:18:24.360 +all can kind of play in that space. + +00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:27.940 +So and that's the, I think, + +00:18:33.080 --> 00:18:33.540 +Feynman said, like, his notes are his + +00:18:35.860 --> 00:18:36.360 +thoughts. It's not him thinking, + +00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:38.980 +I mean, they are him thinking as well. + +00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:41.180 +So it's really framing it that way. + +00:18:44.180 --> 00:18:44.680 +And then for not devs, + +00:18:49.060 --> 00:18:49.240 +My daughter has been doing screenwriting and + +00:18:53.180 --> 00:18:53.480 +she just had her school license for the tool + +00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:55.220 +that they use for writing screenplays. + +00:18:57.400 --> 00:18:57.660 +She had to pay for it on her own. + +00:18:59.540 --> 00:18:59.680 +And I was like, hey, let's take a look at + +00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:01.500 +Emacs. There's a package for this. + +00:19:03.320 --> 00:19:03.820 +Maybe it makes sense to you. + +00:19:09.520 --> 00:19:09.720 +So I think the, really to summarize it is + +00:19:12.280 --> 00:19:12.780 +like the broad curiosity in like, + +00:19:14.320 --> 00:19:14.820 +I have a liberal arts degree, + +00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:21.420 +I have barely any computer science classwork + +00:19:23.940 --> 00:19:24.400 +practice. I have a lot of practical + +00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:26.700 +experience doing software development, + +00:19:28.320 --> 00:19:28.820 +but theory is minimal. + +00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:32.520 +Instead, I look to things like Lord of the + +00:19:35.340 --> 00:19:35.840 +Rings or role-playing games or poetry or + +00:19:40.520 --> 00:19:41.020 +history or whatever and be curious and Then + +00:19:47.260 --> 00:19:47.760 +be playful The introduction of git locally + +00:19:51.060 --> 00:19:51.340 +where I can just have a Git repo means my + +00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:57.340 +text is recoverable. I don't, + +00:19:59.060 --> 00:19:59.320 +I can play. I'll just break it, + +00:20:00.320 --> 00:20:00.800 +I'll change it. It's software, + +00:20:02.860 --> 00:20:03.360 +let it be soft. It's not hard. + +00:20:05.740 --> 00:20:06.100 +It can be hard to work with it, + +00:20:08.080 --> 00:20:08.520 +but let it be soft. Let it be pruned, + +00:20:09.780 --> 00:20:10.120 +let it go away, let it die, + +00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:11.700 +let it come back. + +00:20:16.360 --> 00:20:16.800 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah, That's a lovely attitude to have. + +00:20:20.980 --> 00:20:21.160 +I mean, I've already talked about my past as + +00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:23.860 +an English major in 1 of the EmacsConf talks, + +00:20:26.520 --> 00:20:26.780 +but just like you, I don't have a comp sci + +00:20:30.140 --> 00:20:30.200 +education. I just started with needing a + +00:20:32.120 --> 00:20:32.620 +better pen, and that was about 10 years ago. + +00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:37.020 +And now I find myself hosting Emacs Cons, + +00:20:38.760 --> 00:20:39.140 +but it was a very incremental process, + +00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:40.660 +a very cumulative process, + +00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:43.220 +to reuse the word that we used before. + +00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:48.740 +And What I also like about people outside of + +00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:50.140 +CompSight using Emacs, + +00:20:53.300 --> 00:20:53.480 +and we've got plenty of such examples in the + +00:20:54.940 --> 00:20:55.320 +presentations we've had this year, + +00:20:57.720 --> 00:20:57.940 +but also last year, is that you get so many + +00:21:00.540 --> 00:21:00.920 +different windows into how people are using + +00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:03.480 +Emacs, and it kind of harks back to what I + +00:21:06.340 --> 00:21:06.560 +was saying before about Emacs being a + +00:21:08.380 --> 00:21:08.880 +platform with many horizontal packages + +00:21:10.560 --> 00:21:11.060 +permitting any kind of workflow imaginable + +00:21:13.580 --> 00:21:14.080 +and some people are going to gravitate + +00:21:16.280 --> 00:21:16.640 +towards old mode. I think it was your sister + +00:21:18.520 --> 00:21:19.020 +that you mentioned that was looking into + +00:21:20.760 --> 00:21:21.260 +packages for writing screenplays. + +00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:23.520 +Well, we've got such a thing in Emacs. + +00:21:26.260 --> 00:21:26.760 +I mean, a screenplay is just a monospace font + +00:21:27.900 --> 00:21:28.400 +with some fancy formatting. + +00:21:29.300 --> 00:21:29.800 +It's not very complicated. + +00:21:32.460 --> 00:21:32.960 +And if you can get behind, + +00:21:36.280 --> 00:21:36.720 +you know, someone using such a stable format + +00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:38.940 +for writing screenplay with many rules, + +00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:40.840 +but ultimately all the screenplay look the + +00:21:42.520 --> 00:21:42.780 +same, well, Emacs is kind of just the same. + +00:21:45.060 --> 00:21:45.480 +It's about standardizing the way you edit + +00:21:47.760 --> 00:21:48.000 +text. So I think your sister was already half + +00:21:51.420 --> 00:21:51.760 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, it was my it was my my daughter. + +00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:52.840 +I'm trying to sell her on. + +00:21:53.320 --> 00:21:53.800 +[Speaker 0]: on the idea. Oh, no, sorry. + +00:21:56.200 --> 00:21:56.640 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, she also picked up programming just 1 + +00:21:58.140 --> 00:21:58.640 +day and was like, I forget that. + +00:22:01.360 --> 00:22:01.860 +Like she was playing with a stage manager + +00:22:03.420 --> 00:22:03.580 +programming thing or like have a little + +00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:05.140 +avatars moving around. + +00:22:11.280 --> 00:22:11.480 +And so she's got a predisposition to like the + +00:22:15.620 --> 00:22:16.020 +craft of things. And I think that's another + +00:22:18.320 --> 00:22:18.820 +aspect is like, I'm not, + +00:22:21.080 --> 00:22:21.580 +I mean, I appreciate science. + +00:22:23.040 --> 00:22:23.540 +I'm here for a scientific approach, + +00:22:27.940 --> 00:22:28.440 +but I also Really enjoy the craft of things + +00:22:32.500 --> 00:22:33.000 +Playing with it Like this is my playground. + +00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:36.180 +I love kind of hacking on it and looking at + +00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:39.360 +packages and Seeing how I might use it pick + +00:22:42.120 --> 00:22:42.340 +it up for a little bit and then maybe I + +00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:43.380 +forget about it + +00:22:47.940 --> 00:22:48.440 +[Speaker 0]: Right, well Jeremy I think that was Lovely + +00:22:49.860 --> 00:22:50.180 +finish. Oh, sorry plasma. + +00:22:51.380 --> 00:22:51.760 +Oh, sorry. I thought he was someone on Mumble + +00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:54.780 +talking to me. I'm actually going to have to + +00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:56.600 +be sorry because we only have about 50 + +00:22:58.000 --> 00:22:58.320 +seconds until we move on to the next talk. + +00:22:59.600 --> 00:23:00.040 +But please, Plasma Strike, + +00:23:01.120 --> 00:23:01.560 +If you want to ask your question to Jeremy, + +00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:03.220 +by all means, stay in the room. + +00:23:04.120 --> 00:23:04.620 +[Speaker 1]: Yep, I'll be here. + +00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:07.900 +[Speaker 0]: And we'll be recording all of this and we'll + +00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:09.940 +put this later on the talk page. + +00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:12.560 +So Jeremy, I'll have to say bye now because I + +00:23:13.660 --> 00:23:14.160 +need to prepare the next room. + +00:23:16.320 --> 00:23:16.440 +But It was lovely talking with you and thank + +00:23:17.040 --> 00:23:17.540 +you for all your answers. + +00:23:19.040 --> 00:23:19.540 +[Speaker 1]: Absolutely. Thank you. + +00:23:21.220 --> 00:23:21.720 +[Speaker 0]: Bye-bye. Bye. + +NOTE Start of section to review + +00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:26.580 +[Speaker 2]: See you. Hello. One of the things with Emacs is + +00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:28.900 +it's not... It's like when you change the + +00:23:30.860 --> 00:23:31.260 +file management, you just change very, + +00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:33.980 +very small amounts of what exactly you need, + +00:23:38.040 --> 00:23:38.360 +you want to change. Like you go from text + +00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:43.860 +editing to your file manager, + +00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:45.220 +you're not changing your theme, + +00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:47.180 +you're not changing your font. + +00:23:49.940 --> 00:23:50.060 +[Speaker 3]: And you + +00:23:52.360 --> 00:23:52.500 +[Speaker 2]: use your bookmarks, you use your bookmarks in + +00:23:54.340 --> 00:23:54.840 +your emails, you use your bookmarks in your + +00:23:59.380 --> 00:23:59.880 +org-mod documents, you use it in E-dub, + +00:24:02.460 --> 00:24:02.960 +W-W buffers if you use that, + +00:24:06.760 --> 00:24:06.940 +but it's just the, Yeah, + +00:24:10.080 --> 00:24:10.580 +it's just the least amount of Incremental + +00:24:10.940 --> 00:24:11.440 +changes + +00:24:14.620 --> 00:24:14.900 +[Speaker 1]: yeah, you're when you were talking about like + +00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:18.980 +the Reducing friction like turn off editing + +00:24:22.280 --> 00:24:22.480 +or not editing, but auto correct while you're + +00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:25.940 +typing, it's absolutely spot on. + +00:24:29.800 --> 00:24:30.300 +You're wanting to get whatever is flowing + +00:24:31.280 --> 00:24:31.720 +needs to keep flowing, + +00:24:33.700 --> 00:24:34.200 +like as a programmer or as a creative, + +00:24:38.100 --> 00:24:38.600 +anytime I can hit flow is my goal. + +00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:42.740 +And so paying attention to what removes flow + +00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:48.980 +or hinders it or saps energy and that unified + +00:24:52.800 --> 00:24:53.080 +environment of Emacs is really helpful to + +00:24:57.260 --> 00:24:57.760 +maintain that. So yeah. + +00:25:02.300 --> 00:25:02.580 +[Speaker 2]: I think it's about speed and then once after + +00:25:04.040 --> 00:25:04.540 +you get some of that, then you're like, + +00:25:06.420 --> 00:25:06.920 +well, yeah, it's important, + +00:25:09.320 --> 00:25:09.820 +but this is like the last thing I care about. + +00:25:14.280 --> 00:25:14.780 +[Speaker 1]: Right. Speed is all like, + +00:25:19.700 --> 00:25:20.200 +Yeah, there's a quote that I love called, + +00:25:22.940 --> 00:25:23.440 +I forget the author. It's, + +00:25:30.060 --> 00:25:30.260 +there is a connection between slowness and + +00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:34.460 +remembering and fastness and forgetting. + +00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:40.180 +And the slowness is an interesting, + +00:25:43.520 --> 00:25:43.840 +like it's, I am moving fast in Emacs because + +00:25:46.020 --> 00:25:46.520 +I've forgotten how I'm doing it. + +00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:48.420 +I just do it now, right? + +00:25:52.120 --> 00:25:52.360 +And then the slowness of like being in my + +00:25:57.540 --> 00:25:57.720 +thought and staying on that stream is where I + +00:26:01.700 --> 00:26:02.200 +want to be and ride whatever that pathway is. + +00:26:07.540 --> 00:26:07.680 +And a text editor is still hard to do that + +00:26:10.260 --> 00:26:10.520 +because if I were using a pen and paper it's + +00:26:11.600 --> 00:26:12.100 +more cumbersome to auto-edit. + +00:26:18.620 --> 00:26:18.800 +But I can't get it out without losing my + +00:26:21.180 --> 00:26:21.440 +thinking. And so I ended up having to type + +00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:21.940 +it. + +00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:25.640 +[Speaker 3]: Something I've been experimenting with is + +00:26:26.600 --> 00:26:27.100 +using, well, recording. + +00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:29.700 +Some other people are using dictation for + +00:26:31.760 --> 00:26:32.260 +this to just get the blur out of the ideas + +00:26:35.280 --> 00:26:35.500 +and you can go back and glean some of that + +00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:36.700 +stuff out of it. + +00:26:41.320 --> 00:26:41.680 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, what I will do when I'm capturing like + +00:26:44.760 --> 00:26:45.260 +quotes or epigraphs is I will almost always + +00:26:47.760 --> 00:26:47.960 +turn on dictation because I got a book in 1 + +00:26:52.020 --> 00:26:52.520 +hand. So I'm like, on goes the typing. + +00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:56.940 +And yeah, that is, there's a, + +00:26:59.900 --> 00:27:00.180 +I'm really thankful that that exists as well. + +00:27:01.260 --> 00:27:01.760 +Like my mother is blind. + +00:27:05.020 --> 00:27:05.520 +And so having that helps her and me + +00:27:08.560 --> 00:27:09.060 +communicate Through text because we're both + +00:27:12.900 --> 00:27:13.400 +able to appreciate it And use it in a way + +00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:15.980 +that is accessible for both of us + +00:27:19.120 --> 00:27:19.620 +[Speaker 3]: Go ahead + +00:27:23.100 --> 00:27:23.600 +[Speaker 2]: There's the L feet to package which will + +00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:25.200 +which will allow you to both of us. + +00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:25.440 +There's the ElfieTube package which will + +00:27:28.320 --> 00:27:28.820 +allow you to subscribe to a YouTube channel + +00:27:32.500 --> 00:27:33.000 +and then download the subtitles and give you + +00:27:36.760 --> 00:27:36.940 +remote control access to the MPV player to + +00:27:37.700 --> 00:27:38.200 +watch the YouTube thing. + +00:27:41.420 --> 00:27:41.920 +And considering you have a really big + +00:27:44.580 --> 00:27:44.680 +subtitle thing that you can click at the + +00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:45.660 +various different places, + +00:27:47.860 --> 00:27:48.280 +it's really surprising about how different + +00:27:49.300 --> 00:27:49.800 +that makes YouTube feel. + +00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:51.180 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah I've... + +00:27:54.140 --> 00:27:54.340 +[Speaker 2]: And then on top of that about how much like + +00:27:57.660 --> 00:27:57.800 +if you've used it why would you never have + +00:27:59.160 --> 00:27:59.660 +thought about that before because it's... + +00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:01.220 +Right. It's even better. + +00:28:04.840 --> 00:28:05.340 +[Speaker 1]: Right absolutely. Sasha? + +00:28:10.080 --> 00:28:10.440 +[Speaker 3]: Oh I would say I do use the caption slot also + +00:28:11.580 --> 00:28:12.040 +when I'm skimming through stuff for Emacs + +00:28:13.740 --> 00:28:14.240 +News. But for books specifically, + +00:28:18.420 --> 00:28:18.600 +I often use Google Lens to just capture the + +00:28:21.900 --> 00:28:22.200 +text and copy it so that I don't have to deal + +00:28:24.140 --> 00:28:24.640 +with recognition errors or whatever. + +00:28:25.760 --> 00:28:26.260 +really useful. + +00:28:31.780 --> 00:28:32.280 +[Speaker 1]: It's just So 1 of my hobbies is role-playing + +00:28:35.980 --> 00:28:36.100 +games and the tabular data that is in the + +00:28:38.940 --> 00:28:39.440 +role-playing books is never in correct, + +00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:43.380 +like copy it out. And so I was like this is + +00:28:46.260 --> 00:28:46.680 +really annoying And I ended up taking + +00:28:47.720 --> 00:28:48.220 +screenshots on my machine, + +00:28:50.280 --> 00:28:50.780 +running Tesseract to pipe it in, + +00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:53.980 +and then using Emacs to like edit it because + +00:28:57.940 --> 00:28:58.100 +Tesseract adheres to the column format that + +00:29:00.520 --> 00:29:00.680 +I'm looking for. And I'm really thankful that + +00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:06.100 +we're at a place where the OCR is in good + +00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:10.120 +shape. That's part of my day job is working + +00:29:14.180 --> 00:29:14.680 +on some old documents that OCR is good, + +00:29:18.100 --> 00:29:18.600 +but not great because of like their 19th + +00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:23.920 +century documents, but having that ability to + +00:29:28.080 --> 00:29:28.220 +me is really powerful because we're gonna be + +00:29:32.580 --> 00:29:32.900 +able to share that text And also then once + +00:29:35.860 --> 00:29:36.360 +it's understood in what it's ASCII or UTF-8 + +00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:39.500 +encoding is, it can be translated as well. + +00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:42.460 +So we can make it even more generally + +00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:46.720 +available, which I think is a nice thing to + +00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:47.220 +have. + +00:29:51.820 --> 00:29:52.320 +[Speaker 3]: I wanted to go back to the topic of mentoring + +00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:54.240 +since that's something that I'm very much + +00:29:55.940 --> 00:29:56.400 +interested in figuring out how to facilitate + +00:29:56.980 --> 00:29:57.480 +in the Emacs community. + +00:30:00.520 --> 00:30:00.720 +Other people have been working on kind of + +00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:03.900 +remote mentoring initiatives with Emacs + +00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:07.860 +Buddy. And there are meetups as well that + +00:30:09.140 --> 00:30:09.340 +kind of get that sense of like, + +00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:10.840 +you know, what people are doing things and + +00:30:12.040 --> 00:30:12.500 +then somebody can look over their shoulder + +00:30:14.060 --> 00:30:14.260 +and say, hey, have you ever thought about + +00:30:15.060 --> 00:30:15.560 +[Speaker 1]: Right. + +00:30:17.780 --> 00:30:18.040 +[Speaker 3]: this? Is there any things that you can can + +00:30:20.320 --> 00:30:20.820 +suggest specifically in the context of this + +00:30:23.180 --> 00:30:23.680 +kind of mentoring over a distance? + +00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:26.180 +Any chance you've thought about it? + +00:30:30.800 --> 00:30:30.920 +[Speaker 1]: I'm on the Emacs buddy repo and I've had a + +00:30:32.600 --> 00:30:33.100 +handful of people reach out to me. + +00:30:37.700 --> 00:30:37.920 +Most often we start with email and every so + +00:30:38.980 --> 00:30:39.320 +often it'll be like, hey, + +00:30:44.340 --> 00:30:44.840 +let's hop on some kind of video or audio, + +00:30:47.320 --> 00:30:47.820 +even just done phone calls. + +00:30:53.140 --> 00:30:53.480 +Yeah, I haven't done any of the like shared + +00:30:57.220 --> 00:30:57.500 +buffer stuff. I know like at work we have + +00:30:59.700 --> 00:31:00.200 +replit where we can use that. + +00:31:02.500 --> 00:31:03.000 +Seeing the presentation on CDRT, + +00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:04.940 +I was like, oh, that's really great. + +00:31:10.760 --> 00:31:11.140 +But what I found is being able to see + +00:31:15.280 --> 00:31:15.720 +someone, I don't get to see them typing, + +00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:17.840 +but I get to see the results of what they're + +00:31:18.840 --> 00:31:19.340 +doing on the computer. + +00:31:22.840 --> 00:31:23.040 +You know paying attention to that is the big + +00:31:26.040 --> 00:31:26.540 +1 to help them think of a different way. + +00:31:28.940 --> 00:31:29.160 +Depending on where they're at when they're + +00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:33.460 +writing if they are like at a pause point, + +00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:35.460 +if I'm at my best, I'll be like, + +00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:38.360 +so what are you thinking? + +00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:41.140 +Where are you stuck? Cause maybe they're + +00:31:43.040 --> 00:31:43.280 +trying to navigate somewhere and that starts + +00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:46.720 +to create a point for a conversation of like, + +00:31:48.280 --> 00:31:48.780 +how do I go from here to there? + +00:31:57.340 --> 00:31:57.520 +And so it's looking for those moments is + +00:31:58.840 --> 00:31:59.340 +where I try to operate. + +00:32:03.740 --> 00:32:04.240 +[Speaker 3]: And sometimes, you know, + +00:32:05.380 --> 00:32:05.600 +so there's kind of like, + +00:32:06.760 --> 00:32:07.120 +how do you go from here to there? + +00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:08.500 +And sometimes even the, + +00:32:12.380 --> 00:32:12.540 +what there should I be going for is a + +00:32:15.060 --> 00:32:15.160 +challenge, right? Because especially with + +00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:16.980 +Emacs newbies, they might not necessarily + +00:32:19.340 --> 00:32:19.540 +know what's possible or what's nearby in + +00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:21.700 +terms of what their current knowledge is. + +00:32:23.760 --> 00:32:24.120 +And that's an interesting thing to map out. + +00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:26.400 +Is that something that you've thought about + +00:32:29.020 --> 00:32:29.280 +and as you're conversing with all these + +00:32:29.280 --> 00:32:29.780 +people? + +00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:37.840 +[Speaker 1]: The main thing, the main function that I do + +00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:38.940 +talk, I talked about this, + +00:32:41.240 --> 00:32:41.740 +I think in the, I did in the talk where it's, + +00:32:46.320 --> 00:32:46.660 +I need to jump between the test and the + +00:32:50.900 --> 00:32:51.400 +implementation. And since 2005, + +00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:56.480 +I've had that. And I watch folks not have + +00:32:57.880 --> 00:32:58.100 +that. I'm just like, Oh, + +00:33:00.380 --> 00:33:00.540 +my goodness, like there's a convention in the + +00:33:02.500 --> 00:33:02.720 +language we work in. Let's get that + +00:33:04.080 --> 00:33:04.580 +installed. Let's get it going. + +00:33:07.600 --> 00:33:07.840 +Like that's 1 thing, that's 1 access I know + +00:33:11.740 --> 00:33:11.880 +they're gonna go to. Another 1 is the jump to + +00:33:14.280 --> 00:33:14.600 +definition. And I've never gotten like C + +00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:16.960 +tags. I haven't really spent time on that, + +00:33:18.600 --> 00:33:19.100 +but with the advent of LSP, + +00:33:21.040 --> 00:33:21.540 +it works a lot better. + +00:33:24.520 --> 00:33:25.020 +And so I try to get people to use that. + +00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:30.640 +And what I've noticed weirdly is like VS + +00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:34.400 +code, it doesn't work as well as I would have + +00:33:36.340 --> 00:33:36.500 +thought. And there's lots of like errors and + +00:33:38.100 --> 00:33:38.560 +warnings popping up in the bottom corner. + +00:33:41.120 --> 00:33:41.280 +So I'm like, well, you gotta pay attention to + +00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:46.140 +that. But I try not to get into anybody's + +00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:48.120 +business about like, I'm like, + +00:33:48.900 --> 00:33:49.120 +maybe we could fix that. + +00:33:50.020 --> 00:33:50.280 +Maybe we can clean it up, + +00:33:51.740 --> 00:33:52.240 +but it's your, you know, + +00:33:54.440 --> 00:33:54.940 +it's your car you're driving. + +00:33:56.320 --> 00:33:56.760 +I'm just long for a ride. + +00:33:57.620 --> 00:33:58.120 +It's safe, we're fine. + +00:34:01.360 --> 00:34:01.860 +So yeah, that jumped to definition. + +00:34:07.940 --> 00:34:08.440 +And then the, I mean, search in project, + +00:34:10.080 --> 00:34:10.580 +like everybody understanding that. + +00:34:15.219 --> 00:34:15.380 +But I feel that the, like I mentioned in the + +00:34:17.980 --> 00:34:18.480 +talk, the advent of orderless is just huge. + +00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:21.659 +I did not realize how much I loved it because + +00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:24.480 +I don't have to think about things and can + +00:34:28.080 --> 00:34:28.580 +have slightly more forgiving default + +00:34:34.340 --> 00:34:34.840 +searches. Yeah, it's hard. + +00:34:39.159 --> 00:34:39.440 +The principles of organizing 10 things versus + +00:34:41.040 --> 00:34:41.540 +100 versus 1,000 versus 10,000 + +00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:44.940 +are just, they're not the same. + +00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:52.540 +[Speaker 2]: A common hang up for, that would easily make + +00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:54.820 +you skip off of Emacs, + +00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:01.040 +Org Mode, Hyperbole is if you go into any of + +00:35:03.680 --> 00:35:04.040 +those with the mindset of I'm going to master + +00:35:05.080 --> 00:35:05.580 +it all before I use it. + +00:35:06.640 --> 00:35:07.140 +That's not going to work. + +00:35:13.660 --> 00:35:13.860 +[Speaker 1]: Absolutely. I was terrified of org mode when + +00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:15.060 +I started because I'm like, + +00:35:16.720 --> 00:35:17.040 +I don't need to organize my life. + +00:35:20.460 --> 00:35:20.960 +I need to like type. And then that, + +00:35:24.520 --> 00:35:25.020 +yes, incremental. What did I find helpful? + +00:35:28.580 --> 00:35:29.080 +[Speaker 2]: It's for the, for the Linux CLI toolbox, + +00:35:30.860 --> 00:35:31.360 +but you have to look at them as more of just, + +00:35:34.640 --> 00:35:35.140 +I have a whole bunch of tools available to me + +00:35:39.140 --> 00:35:39.360 +and I'll just pick them up as I have a + +00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:42.680 +problem and as I, and as the tool can be + +00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:44.940 +useful for this problem and incrementally. + +00:35:47.700 --> 00:35:48.200 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. It's + +00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:55.080 +[Speaker 3]: actually, so, in fact, + +00:35:56.180 --> 00:35:56.400 +when when I'm mentoring people, + +00:35:58.440 --> 00:35:58.580 +I have to take a step back and say, + +00:36:00.520 --> 00:36:00.760 +OK, what are we with the note taking thing + +00:36:01.640 --> 00:36:02.140 +that you mentioned in your talk. + +00:36:03.120 --> 00:36:03.480 +How do you like to take notes? + +00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:05.140 +How do you like to keep track of the things + +00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:06.600 +that you want to work on when you have an + +00:36:07.540 --> 00:36:08.040 +idea? Where does it go? + +00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:10.820 +Because if you improve that practice, + +00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:13.180 +and especially if you can sneak some literate + +00:36:14.540 --> 00:36:15.040 +programming in without them really noticing, + +00:36:17.860 --> 00:36:18.160 +then it becomes the thing that they can use + +00:36:18.900 --> 00:36:19.400 +to learn more efficiently. + +00:36:23.200 --> 00:36:23.700 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. I was presenting at, + +00:36:26.600 --> 00:36:27.100 +I wasn't presenting at this seminar, + +00:36:30.560 --> 00:36:30.920 +but I attended it and it was a crash course + +00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:32.300 +in command line tools. + +00:36:35.520 --> 00:36:36.020 +And I didn't, I mean, I went there to listen + +00:36:38.660 --> 00:36:38.800 +and there was a point where the people were + +00:36:40.560 --> 00:36:41.060 +like, I use this command line tool. + +00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:42.860 +I'm not a programmer, I'm a librarian, + +00:36:45.040 --> 00:36:45.060 +I'm an archivist. I use it, + +00:36:47.080 --> 00:36:47.580 +I'm like, great, I'm gonna remember this. + +00:36:49.640 --> 00:36:49.820 +And then I forget about it and I might use it + +00:36:54.340 --> 00:36:54.520 +6 months from now. And so I tried to + +00:36:56.880 --> 00:36:57.380 +encourage everybody, like come up with, + +00:37:00.580 --> 00:37:00.740 +like you have a degree in knowledge and + +00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:02.820 +information, management and organization, + +00:37:06.160 --> 00:37:06.660 +introspect, right? Spend some time on it. + +00:37:09.740 --> 00:37:10.240 +Think about what is a way that I can do this + +00:37:13.180 --> 00:37:13.360 +and ask questions to get to the point where + +00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:19.240 +you can create a discoverable inventory of + +00:37:22.500 --> 00:37:23.000 +the tools you've used and what that means. + +00:37:26.160 --> 00:37:26.660 +And my answer was, I use literate programming + +00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:31.300 +or I shove it in my bin directory in GitHub + +00:37:34.080 --> 00:37:34.300 +and like, I don't know if I'll remember it, + +00:37:35.860 --> 00:37:36.020 +but I can go there every now and then and be + +00:37:37.120 --> 00:37:37.620 +like, oh yeah, that command. + +00:37:44.220 --> 00:37:44.720 +So note taking is the most critical component + +00:37:46.620 --> 00:37:47.120 +of any number of work. + +00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:52.360 +[Speaker 3]: Sometimes I wonder if we can maybe + +00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:54.500 +externalize some of all this mentoring + +00:37:57.520 --> 00:37:57.720 +insight and kind of like this choose your own + +00:37:59.700 --> 00:37:59.920 +adventure thing, where the person says, + +00:38:01.200 --> 00:38:01.700 +OK, this is what I got at the moment. + +00:38:03.460 --> 00:38:03.960 +And then through a series of diagnostic + +00:38:05.740 --> 00:38:06.220 +questions, we can figure out what hurts, + +00:38:08.040 --> 00:38:08.220 +right? Where is the thing that they would + +00:38:08.980 --> 00:38:09.240 +like to learn more about? + +00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:10.460 +And then, okay, if that hurts, + +00:38:12.620 --> 00:38:13.120 +try this and keep that manageable. + +00:38:15.720 --> 00:38:15.880 +And if there's only a way to also be able to + +00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:17.720 +capture each person's state, + +00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:19.840 +the things that they know about and have + +00:38:20.980 --> 00:38:21.480 +absorbed into their habits. + +00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:23.200 +So you can say, right, + +00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:25.760 +you know, my recommendation for someone who's + +00:38:28.580 --> 00:38:28.940 +brand new to org is not the same as somebody + +00:38:30.060 --> 00:38:30.480 +who's like, okay, they've got their agendas + +00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:31.800 +and everything set up already. + +00:38:33.680 --> 00:38:34.180 +Just how do we represent that as like WISPs? + +00:38:39.520 --> 00:38:39.720 +[Speaker 1]: I've given up on trying to map that. + +00:38:43.180 --> 00:38:43.440 +I like the one-on-one conversations and + +00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:47.980 +discovery. And I think that's the part where + +00:38:51.980 --> 00:38:52.120 +you're looking at, you're asking about how do + +00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:56.320 +we make the process and like I heard, + +00:38:58.860 --> 00:38:59.040 +like how do we help equip those who want to + +00:39:01.560 --> 00:39:01.960 +mentor as well, right? + +00:39:05.900 --> 00:39:05.970 +Making that, reducing the barrier in a way. + +00:39:06.040 --> 00:39:06.180 +[Speaker 2]: I don't + +00:39:08.240 --> 00:39:08.740 +[Speaker 3]: know, I think what you said about enjoying + +00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:10.680 +the conversation and the fact that it is + +00:39:12.080 --> 00:39:12.580 +really unique for each person, + +00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:15.260 +each situation that comes up. + +00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:18.840 +I suspect what it just comes down to is more + +00:39:21.560 --> 00:39:22.020 +like capturing the good stuff of each + +00:39:23.160 --> 00:39:23.660 +mentoring session or whatever. + +00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:26.120 +Maybe it's getting the mentees to write very + +00:39:27.700 --> 00:39:27.900 +short blog posts about what they learned this + +00:39:28.780 --> 00:39:29.280 +week or whatever else. + +00:39:30.900 --> 00:39:31.400 +And then, oh, yeah, you know, + +00:39:33.700 --> 00:39:33.900 +we ran into the same problem 3 months ago. + +00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:36.440 +Let me go look it up. And then that becomes a + +00:39:37.080 --> 00:39:37.580 +reusable segment. + +00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:41.780 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, when I worked at a coding bootcamp, + +00:39:46.420 --> 00:39:46.720 +they tried to encourage the mentors to say, + +00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:49.820 +like write a blog posts for the mentees. + +00:39:57.160 --> 00:39:57.380 +And that was, some of them did, + +00:40:01.980 --> 00:40:02.140 +but it was intimidating because like they + +00:40:03.260 --> 00:40:03.760 +didn't wanna, I don't know. + +00:40:06.900 --> 00:40:07.360 +Are we enculturated in an education system + +00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:09.920 +where we can't get it wrong or we need to + +00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:11.980 +look like we're more of an expert than we + +00:40:15.720 --> 00:40:16.220 +are? I don't know. I have a lot of like, + +00:40:17.720 --> 00:40:17.960 +I'm a middle aged white guy, + +00:40:20.140 --> 00:40:20.640 +I've got a lot of background and privilege in + +00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:25.680 +my career. So like, it's not as scary to put + +00:40:28.620 --> 00:40:28.860 +something forward for myself as it might be + +00:40:31.080 --> 00:40:31.240 +as like a woman in tech or a minority in + +00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:35.900 +tech, because that's a different place. + +00:40:38.900 --> 00:40:39.400 +And I want to really get done with that. + +00:40:40.760 --> 00:40:41.260 +I don't like that at all. + +00:40:43.820 --> 00:40:44.320 +And I would love our, like, + +00:40:46.640 --> 00:40:47.140 +just write. And it doesn't have to be public, + +00:40:48.540 --> 00:40:49.040 +right? You don't have to make it public, + +00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:52.380 +but if you make it discoverable to yourself, + +00:40:58.320 --> 00:40:58.820 +that's the big thing. And 1 of my coworkers, + +00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:05.020 +She doesn't blog, but she definitely has a + +00:41:07.200 --> 00:41:07.480 +large knowledge base of stuff that she + +00:41:08.980 --> 00:41:09.140 +references because she's pulling out all + +00:41:10.520 --> 00:41:10.760 +kinds of stuff and I'm like whatever you're + +00:41:11.120 --> 00:41:11.620 +doing is working. + +00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:18.420 +[Speaker 2]: I'm trying to have something. + +00:41:23.680 --> 00:41:24.180 +There's a good opportunity with the Emacs + +00:41:25.680 --> 00:41:26.180 +conference to accomplish this. + +00:41:28.420 --> 00:41:28.920 +So like if you make like a, + +00:41:31.640 --> 00:41:32.140 +because 1 of the things with it is, + +00:41:36.600 --> 00:41:37.080 +Sasha, you do a really good job of using all. + +00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:39.000 +You're the 1 who has the Emacs buffer with + +00:41:39.780 --> 00:41:40.080 +the time on it, right? + +00:41:41.820 --> 00:41:41.980 +Is that your screen that's being recorded for + +00:41:45.860 --> 00:41:46.360 +that? Because you have a really good example + +00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:50.600 +of a really consolidated emacs workflow that + +00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:53.920 +works really good with the Emacs conference + +00:41:56.520 --> 00:41:56.800 +so if you had like a page that described how + +00:42:00.100 --> 00:42:00.460 +you did all that stuff in the emacs + +00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:04.360 +conference like on that and then we then you + +00:42:06.140 --> 00:42:06.380 +did even more stuff with that. + +00:42:09.560 --> 00:42:10.060 +Like you do the org mode file that you can + +00:42:12.140 --> 00:42:12.340 +just put straight into your agenda for your + +00:42:14.720 --> 00:42:14.940 +time zone. I used that. + +00:42:17.540 --> 00:42:17.800 +That was really nice, just because it allowed + +00:42:19.600 --> 00:42:19.900 +me to reorganize and see how all the talks + +00:42:21.580 --> 00:42:21.880 +would work together, and which ones I wanted + +00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:26.060 +to do. You could add Org Mode to do tags with + +00:42:31.020 --> 00:42:31.520 +that, to say, plan to watch, + +00:42:36.080 --> 00:42:36.360 +I want to re-watch but I have to skip it + +00:42:37.540 --> 00:42:38.000 +because there's another talk I'm watching, + +00:42:40.760 --> 00:42:41.260 +you know, like a couple tags don't care about + +00:42:43.940 --> 00:42:44.200 +so that people can easily tag all the talks + +00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:47.860 +that they care about on top of that. + +00:42:52.660 --> 00:42:53.160 +And then with, I'm going to try to email + +00:42:54.660 --> 00:42:54.900 +these ideas on it too, + +00:42:57.980 --> 00:42:58.480 +but then you can also, + +00:43:00.940 --> 00:43:01.440 +you have the either pad questions, + +00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:04.440 +you could put all those in org-mode documents + +00:43:08.300 --> 00:43:08.760 +with crdt.el, post all those in the Emacs + +00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:11.600 +conference and then people could use that to + +00:43:13.820 --> 00:43:13.980 +edit all the documents at the same time so + +00:43:15.160 --> 00:43:15.660 +then everybody's actually collaboratively + +00:43:20.180 --> 00:43:20.440 +editing. And then people have all the + +00:43:24.520 --> 00:43:25.020 +scaffolding for if you do the Emacs meetings, + +00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:27.940 +buddy meetings, because they know exactly how + +00:43:29.820 --> 00:43:30.180 +to set it all up with that. + +00:43:34.040 --> 00:43:34.540 +And then you combine it with any number of + +00:43:38.040 --> 00:43:38.360 +whatever chat video program so that people + +00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:40.280 +can talk and watch each other. + +00:43:45.420 --> 00:43:45.920 +[Speaker 3]: I have a presentation later on EmacsConf + +00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:49.200 +infrastructure and I will capture the note + +00:43:51.380 --> 00:43:51.600 +And maybe I can include a mini tutorial in + +00:43:53.460 --> 00:43:53.800 +the schedule org so that people can be like, + +00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:55.680 +hey, by the way, you could refile these + +00:43:58.860 --> 00:43:59.120 +things into your own org files or tag them + +00:44:01.520 --> 00:44:01.720 +and here's a list thingy that filters your + +00:44:03.420 --> 00:44:03.740 +agenda by your tag or whatever, + +00:44:04.940 --> 00:44:05.200 +it'll be fine. But it's, + +00:44:06.100 --> 00:44:06.600 +you know, it's, it's kind of like, + +00:44:09.640 --> 00:44:09.800 +it is, you're right. It is an opportunity to + +00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:12.800 +expose people to more things that they could + +00:44:14.620 --> 00:44:15.120 +do in kind of a scaffolded way. + +00:44:16.600 --> 00:44:16.880 +That's interesting stuff, + +00:44:18.780 --> 00:44:19.040 +but I, your point actually driving also going + +00:44:21.180 --> 00:44:21.680 +back to previous parts of conversation about, + +00:44:24.340 --> 00:44:24.546 +it's difficult for people to share. + +00:44:26.420 --> 00:44:26.720 +When you realize, like I keep telling + +00:44:28.380 --> 00:44:28.880 +everyone, hey, if you blog about Emacs, + +00:44:30.720 --> 00:44:30.920 +you'll not only learn things for yourself and + +00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:31.920 +make things more searchable, + +00:44:33.520 --> 00:44:33.740 +other people will come by and tell you even + +00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:35.340 +better ways of doing things, + +00:44:36.940 --> 00:44:37.080 +which is something that always happens to me + +00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:37.960 +too, and I'm posting this. + +00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:38.900 +Has that ever happened? + +00:44:39.960 --> 00:44:40.460 +I'm sure that happens to you. + +00:44:45.020 --> 00:44:45.520 +[Speaker 1]: It's great. I love getting those things like, + +00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:49.700 +yeah, Howard's presentation on the game + +00:44:51.720 --> 00:44:52.000 +stuff. I'm like, I'm going to go explore that + +00:44:54.560 --> 00:44:55.060 +now. Because it's my little house. + +00:44:57.280 --> 00:44:57.780 +[Speaker 3]: You just have to make it less intimidating, + +00:45:00.600 --> 00:45:01.100 +right? And kind of change people's perception + +00:45:03.420 --> 00:45:03.540 +that, oh, blogging or sharing tutorials or + +00:45:05.460 --> 00:45:05.860 +whatever, that's then when you're an expert, + +00:45:06.340 --> 00:45:06.840 +when you're an experienced, + +00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:09.720 +to rather working out loud, + +00:45:11.520 --> 00:45:11.740 +thinking out loud, this is just that I'm + +00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:13.300 +learning along the way. + +00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:16.000 +And it might not be the most efficient way to + +00:45:17.720 --> 00:45:17.880 +do things, but this is what I'm doing right + +00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:18.380 +now. + +00:45:23.940 --> 00:45:24.180 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. And I had a handful of times where I + +00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:26.000 +posted something and someone was like, + +00:45:27.620 --> 00:45:27.900 +Oh yeah, this is, this would have you tried + +00:45:30.060 --> 00:45:30.420 +this? Or I'm like, I didn't even know that + +00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:32.940 +existed. That makes this easier. + +00:45:37.540 --> 00:45:37.740 +[Speaker 3]: I've written this like little hack and I'm + +00:45:38.860 --> 00:45:39.140 +very proud of it because it's clever. + +00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:39.920 +And then someone's like, + +00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:41.240 +Oh yeah, there's a package for that. + +00:45:42.720 --> 00:45:43.220 +It's called this. Right? + +00:45:43.660 --> 00:45:44.160 +[Speaker 1]: Thank you. Right? Yeah. + +00:45:49.380 --> 00:45:49.880 +It's just it's Yeah, it the fantastic part + +00:45:54.140 --> 00:45:54.240 +it. I played Legos as a kid and me and my + +00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:56.260 +friends would play Legos at the house. + +00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:01.300 +And Emacs has this like feeling of playing + +00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:04.540 +Legos with a group of people across the + +00:46:06.120 --> 00:46:06.620 +world. In fact, 1 of my current, + +00:46:09.080 --> 00:46:09.580 +well, 1 of my best friends now, + +00:46:14.040 --> 00:46:14.540 +we met a year ago. And it turns out we both + +00:46:18.460 --> 00:46:18.620 +love Emacs. We talk every Thursday and we + +00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:20.420 +hang out and we talk poetry. + +00:46:23.500 --> 00:46:24.000 +We talk Tom Petty. We talk Emacs. + +00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:25.420 +We talk software development. + +00:46:26.840 --> 00:46:27.340 +He does Python. I do Ruby. + +00:46:29.860 --> 00:46:30.360 +Just anything and everything. + +00:46:36.660 --> 00:46:36.820 +And it's also we both are curious because we + +00:46:38.100 --> 00:46:38.600 +don't use it the same way. + +00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:44.420 +And we like how we accomplish a task. + +00:46:47.020 --> 00:46:47.220 +I think that's the fascinating part to me is + +00:46:50.140 --> 00:46:50.580 +we each get to explore our way to interact + +00:46:54.060 --> 00:46:54.560 +with the computer uniquely by whatever + +00:46:55.860 --> 00:46:56.360 +pathways are in our brain. + +00:46:58.340 --> 00:46:58.520 +We see stuff, we pick it up, + +00:47:00.060 --> 00:47:00.240 +and we're like, that doesn't quite work for + +00:47:01.960 --> 00:47:02.460 +me, or, oh, that worked really well. + +00:47:06.660 --> 00:47:07.160 +Fascinating, like, I don't know, + +00:47:08.200 --> 00:47:08.700 +shared art installation. + +00:47:13.740 --> 00:47:14.020 +[Speaker 3]: I think you're onto something that I also + +00:47:15.460 --> 00:47:15.640 +resonate with. 1 of the things that + +00:47:18.820 --> 00:47:19.060 +fascinates me about Emacs is all these + +00:47:21.220 --> 00:47:21.720 +people's configuration jobs are crystallized + +00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:25.080 +workflows. And it's really when you talk to + +00:47:26.580 --> 00:47:27.080 +them and you see how they're using it, + +00:47:29.200 --> 00:47:29.540 +and you understand a little bit of their + +00:47:32.140 --> 00:47:32.320 +story and things that they need, + +00:47:33.160 --> 00:47:33.660 +the ideas they've had, + +00:47:35.640 --> 00:47:36.140 +that's really fascinating. + +00:47:37.580 --> 00:47:37.800 +And I think that's 1 of the things that makes + +00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:40.080 +it possible to be perpetually curious about + +00:47:42.660 --> 00:47:43.160 +Emacs, because it's not just the, + +00:47:43.820 --> 00:47:44.060 +you know, this is the, + +00:47:45.520 --> 00:47:45.920 +these are all the Lego pieces there are, + +00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:47.920 +but you have this community of people who are + +00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:50.820 +using these Lego bricks in such fascinating + +00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:53.940 +ways and always inventing new things for it. + +00:47:56.100 --> 00:47:56.600 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, new colors, new shapes, + +00:47:59.640 --> 00:48:00.140 +they show up. It's great. + +00:48:03.200 --> 00:48:03.400 +[Speaker 2]: It's like powered twice or something like + +00:48:06.040 --> 00:48:06.220 +that because it's like you can use Emacs with + +00:48:09.720 --> 00:48:10.220 +a thousand different customizations and then + +00:48:12.340 --> 00:48:12.720 +you can interact with people who can each + +00:48:16.540 --> 00:48:17.040 +also Use Emacs in a thousand different ways + +00:48:17.520 --> 00:48:17.800 +[Speaker 1]: Mm-hmm, Right, + +00:48:20.200 --> 00:48:20.280 +[Speaker 2]: Then you can both learn from each other and + +00:48:21.720 --> 00:48:22.040 +that can go a thousand different ways. + +00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:24.500 +So it's like, it's like powering your + +00:48:25.240 --> 00:48:25.680 +[Speaker 3]: Yep. + +00:48:27.400 --> 00:48:27.700 +[Speaker 2]: Something along those lines with each other + +00:48:30.720 --> 00:48:30.920 +and like how different and how much you can + +00:48:31.560 --> 00:48:32.060 +learn from it. + +00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:38.980 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, the kind of touching back to the mentee + +00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:42.380 +that I have who went, he had originally + +00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:44.980 +started in Vim and then did VS code. + +00:48:47.420 --> 00:48:47.600 +And then we were talking and he was gonna go + +00:48:50.420 --> 00:48:50.860 +into Emacs and I didn't have a, + +00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:52.360 +I mean, sure, that'd be great. + +00:48:53.860 --> 00:48:54.060 +But he's like, I don't have a lot of time. + +00:48:56.120 --> 00:48:56.620 +And I'm like, well, go back to the place that + +00:48:57.840 --> 00:48:58.340 +you have that experience. + +00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:01.280 +And he did, And then he started writing Lua + +00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:03.340 +plugins. He was like, this is so much fun. + +00:49:05.380 --> 00:49:05.880 +I'm like, good, you're on the right path. + +00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:11.340 +Like maybe there'll be space like over time, + +00:49:13.860 --> 00:49:14.360 +how Lua plugins and Emacs, + +00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:17.260 +you know, who knows? I know that Lua, + +00:49:19.040 --> 00:49:19.540 +you can use Fennel to write Lisp. + +00:49:24.240 --> 00:49:24.740 +In you write Lisp and it will transpile + +00:49:29.060 --> 00:49:29.560 +Fennel to Lua. I forget how that plays out, + +00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:32.080 +but we're not too far away from those 2 + +00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:34.980 +things being able to play. + +00:49:39.020 --> 00:49:39.520 +But I guess the question is, + +00:49:41.980 --> 00:49:42.480 +does it need to? I don't know. + +00:49:44.540 --> 00:49:45.040 +[Speaker 3]: Yeah, I mean, even without direct code + +00:49:47.620 --> 00:49:48.120 +translation, the cross-pollination of ideas + +00:49:51.460 --> 00:49:51.960 +is certainly enough. I love the fact that + +00:49:54.720 --> 00:49:54.840 +people are borrowing ideas from VS Code and + +00:49:57.840 --> 00:49:58.040 +from Vim and people look at Emacs videos and + +00:49:58.840 --> 00:49:59.020 +other things and say, hey, + +00:49:59.860 --> 00:50:00.060 +that's a cool thing in Emacs, + +00:50:01.240 --> 00:50:01.680 +but I don't want to ever use Emacs. + +00:50:03.240 --> 00:50:03.740 +I'm going to do that whole thing in Vim. + +00:50:04.600 --> 00:50:05.100 +And I think that's fantastic. + +00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:07.820 +[Speaker 1]: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, + +00:50:10.640 --> 00:50:11.140 +monocultures die. They just do. + +00:50:16.840 --> 00:50:17.340 +And computer software and computer industry + +00:50:24.120 --> 00:50:24.280 +pushes towards monoculture because of it + +00:50:26.660 --> 00:50:27.160 +wants the highest efficiency. + +00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:31.780 +And I'm like, I'm not, + +00:50:33.640 --> 00:50:34.140 +I mean, sometimes I'm here for that, + +00:50:35.600 --> 00:50:35.980 +but most of the time I'm like, + +00:50:37.120 --> 00:50:37.620 +I want the bumps and the warts. + +00:50:40.680 --> 00:50:41.180 +I want the art, the human interaction, + +00:50:42.720 --> 00:50:43.220 +the like, why are we trying to accomplish + +00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:43.860 +this? + +00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:46.620 +[Speaker 2]: It determines, It depends on how you + +00:50:49.640 --> 00:50:50.140 +determine efficiency because Emacs is far + +00:50:52.840 --> 00:50:53.240 +Even if Emacs isn't multi-threaded is far + +00:50:56.980 --> 00:50:57.480 +more efficient because because of the mental + +00:51:00.060 --> 00:51:00.220 +model shifts because you're able to play and + +00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:04.600 +tweak with it and then have as much of a + +00:51:07.160 --> 00:51:07.360 +mental model shift for each task change that + +00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:11.260 +you want. Like, yeah, I want my file manager + +00:51:16.260 --> 00:51:16.760 +to not be an editable text buffer. + +00:51:18.660 --> 00:51:19.120 +Although sometimes when I want to rename + +00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:20.820 +files, I want it to be that. + +00:51:23.800 --> 00:51:24.300 +[Speaker 1]: Right. Yeah, and really, + +00:51:26.640 --> 00:51:27.040 +like, to be clear, I like the idea of Emacs + +00:51:29.060 --> 00:51:29.340 +as a projection of, like, + +00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:30.660 +how I think about stuff. + +00:51:33.780 --> 00:51:33.960 +So it's that whatever my neurons have made a + +00:51:37.040 --> 00:51:37.280 +good pathway for, I can have Emacs flow with + +00:51:41.660 --> 00:51:42.160 +me. That efficiency side is I want a factory, + +00:51:43.080 --> 00:51:43.480 +I want to stamp out widgets, + +00:51:44.540 --> 00:51:44.720 +I want them to be the same, + +00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:45.650 +chop, chop, chop, chop, + +00:51:51.860 --> 00:51:52.360 +chop, chop. That emacs runs in its spirit + +00:51:57.180 --> 00:51:57.440 +along with vim contrary to that and I like + +00:51:57.440 --> 00:51:57.940 +that + +00:52:00.530 --> 00:52:00.720 +[Speaker 2]: emacs is a 1 of the things with the like the + +00:52:03.480 --> 00:52:03.680 +mental model of Emacs is you should look at + +00:52:06.180 --> 00:52:06.660 +Emacs like this is probably something that + +00:52:08.100 --> 00:52:08.320 +people should think about when they are + +00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:10.940 +introducing Emacs to other people is Emacs is + +00:52:15.720 --> 00:52:15.900 +a treasure trove of conflicting ways of + +00:52:18.080 --> 00:52:18.580 +solving the same problem so you get, + +00:52:22.040 --> 00:52:22.280 +so you can individuate yourself on how you + +00:52:23.520 --> 00:52:24.020 +actually want to solve that problem. + +00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:25.600 +[Speaker 3]: Do you + +00:52:26.700 --> 00:52:27.200 +[Speaker 2]: want Vim bindings or not? + +00:52:30.200 --> 00:52:30.580 +You get to choose. Or do you want Meow + +00:52:31.900 --> 00:52:32.400 +bindings? You can choose. + +00:52:34.780 --> 00:52:35.280 +[Speaker 1]: Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. + +00:52:38.780 --> 00:52:39.040 +I, I came, I'm, I consider my, + +00:52:42.380 --> 00:52:42.660 +I, I lament because in 2005 I almost picked + +00:52:46.100 --> 00:52:46.240 +up Emacs and it wasn't until 2020 that I + +00:52:49.040 --> 00:52:49.440 +picked it up. And fortunately I picked it up + +00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:54.500 +when I did because I was able to look at + +00:52:58.020 --> 00:52:58.520 +things I had previously accomplished and find + +00:53:05.140 --> 00:53:05.420 +analogs And things like Helm and Ivy were + +00:53:08.940 --> 00:53:09.440 +both 2 different ways of doing it and consult + +00:53:11.600 --> 00:53:12.100 +and then, or Selectrum and then consult, + +00:53:15.860 --> 00:53:16.060 +like they all had these different ways And it + +00:53:18.900 --> 00:53:19.400 +felt great because I could find the thing + +00:53:24.520 --> 00:53:25.020 +that worked for me. And they're close, + +00:53:27.680 --> 00:53:27.840 +but then they also like branch out and do + +00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:30.860 +things differently. And it was so fascinating + +00:53:34.860 --> 00:53:35.020 +to explore each of those and spend an hour or + +00:53:39.100 --> 00:53:39.360 +2 on a primary task in seeing where that + +00:53:42.040 --> 00:53:42.540 +little thread went. It's great. + +00:53:47.200 --> 00:53:47.600 +[Speaker 3]: So tell me a bit more about how you got into + +00:53:51.040 --> 00:53:51.300 +Emacs. What pulled you + +00:53:55.120 --> 00:53:55.620 +[Speaker 1]: in? Yeah, this is a great little moment. + +00:53:59.680 --> 00:54:00.180 +I started in TextMate, + +00:54:03.280 --> 00:54:03.420 +That's kind of where I would say the + +00:54:06.460 --> 00:54:06.660 +beginning for coding for open source and + +00:54:07.840 --> 00:54:08.340 +using open source software. + +00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:11.920 +Sorry, using open source frameworks and + +00:54:14.540 --> 00:54:15.040 +languages. So TextMate to Sublime, + +00:54:18.260 --> 00:54:18.580 +basically TextMate couldn't search very well + +00:54:20.740 --> 00:54:21.060 +at the time. It was getting bogged down. + +00:54:21.640 --> 00:54:22.080 +So I moved to Sublime, + +00:54:23.260 --> 00:54:23.760 +which solved it, felt well, + +00:54:27.900 --> 00:54:28.400 +carried the same UI look with me. + +00:54:30.680 --> 00:54:31.180 +And then when I was at a conference, + +00:54:34.540 --> 00:54:34.860 +there was a talk about using an open source + +00:54:36.600 --> 00:54:36.880 +editor. I was like, yeah, + +00:54:38.720 --> 00:54:39.220 +I need to do that. I really need to. + +00:54:43.080 --> 00:54:43.260 +And Adam was viable. I was like, + +00:54:44.320 --> 00:54:44.820 +Oh, this is really close. + +00:54:47.120 --> 00:54:47.360 +I'll use it. And I didn't think too much + +00:54:49.540 --> 00:54:49.680 +about it. And then the writing was on the + +00:54:51.120 --> 00:54:51.620 +wall, that Adam is going away. + +00:54:55.760 --> 00:54:56.040 +And I was like, I need to find an open source + +00:54:57.100 --> 00:54:57.600 +editor that speaks to me. + +00:54:59.200 --> 00:54:59.440 +And I said, all right, + +00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:01.260 +Vim, This is my fifth time. + +00:55:06.300 --> 00:55:06.800 +I will try. And I gave an earnest 2 weeks. + +00:55:09.060 --> 00:55:09.440 +And I'm just like, I cannot get this mental + +00:55:11.600 --> 00:55:11.840 +model in my head. So I'm like, + +00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:13.200 +all right, I set it down. + +00:55:14.540 --> 00:55:15.040 +I can use Vim, I'm comfortable. + +00:55:15.940 --> 00:55:16.360 +I think it's a great tool, + +00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:19.500 +but my mental model doesn't map well there. + +00:55:21.040 --> 00:55:21.420 +And I'm like, all right, + +00:55:24.780 --> 00:55:25.280 +here we go, VS code. All right, + +00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:28.520 +you're fine. But I feel like I might + +00:55:31.340 --> 00:55:31.500 +accidentally charge my credit card in the + +00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:33.500 +text editor on the default installation. + +00:55:38.680 --> 00:55:39.180 +And that was alluded to by in 1 of the talks, + +00:55:46.120 --> 00:55:46.620 +I forget who he German about mandating Emacs + +00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:48.500 +in his computer science classes. + +00:55:51.020 --> 00:55:51.220 +He mentioned like the Microsoft Office or + +00:55:54.060 --> 00:55:54.560 +Microsoft Marketplace felt like it was there. + +00:55:58.860 --> 00:55:59.060 +So that was 1, but the moment where I was + +00:56:02.380 --> 00:56:02.880 +like, oh, hell no, VS Code. + +00:56:08.520 --> 00:56:08.940 +Or I wanted to use a commit from the command + +00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:12.780 +palette, and it brought up an HTML text input + +00:56:15.060 --> 00:56:15.560 +area, and it was 30 characters. + +00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:23.500 +And in that moment, I saw several things. + +00:56:27.040 --> 00:56:27.140 +1, I'm like, no, that's terrible because I + +00:56:28.100 --> 00:56:28.600 +want to write something meaningful. + +00:56:33.640 --> 00:56:33.900 +2, this is the behavior that this tool is + +00:56:38.960 --> 00:56:39.240 +modeling. That tells me that history and like + +00:56:41.320 --> 00:56:41.820 +how it is built is not important. + +00:56:47.160 --> 00:56:47.320 +And yes, I can fix it and get around it. + +00:56:49.240 --> 00:56:49.740 +And I kind of did. And I was like, + +00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:51.860 +the principles are just, + +00:56:53.680 --> 00:56:54.180 +they're there. And then also understanding + +00:56:56.100 --> 00:56:56.600 +like there's a bunch of telemetry underneath + +00:56:58.860 --> 00:56:59.360 +it. So I used VS Codium, + +00:57:00.240 --> 00:57:00.740 +there's still telemetry. + +00:57:03.340 --> 00:57:03.840 +And I was like, all right, + +00:57:07.380 --> 00:57:07.880 +2005 Jeremy, let's go try Emacs, + +00:57:08.940 --> 00:57:09.440 +let's see if we can do it. + +00:57:13.860 --> 00:57:14.360 +And I hopped in, I grabbed Space Max. + +00:57:16.640 --> 00:57:17.020 +I was Like, yeah, this works pretty well. + +00:57:18.740 --> 00:57:18.960 +Like, I don't know how to use the keys very + +00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:21.380 +well. I'm figuring it out. + +00:57:26.040 --> 00:57:26.400 +And. And I was like, you know what? + +00:57:27.340 --> 00:57:27.840 +Why don't I do the tutorial? + +00:57:30.860 --> 00:57:31.360 +And it was the tutorial that hooked me. + +00:57:36.820 --> 00:57:37.320 +Not because everything made 100% sense + +00:57:42.440 --> 00:57:42.620 +because Emacs is old. It had a lot of + +00:57:45.420 --> 00:57:45.920 +language that was hard to internalize, + +00:57:50.500 --> 00:57:50.740 +but it presented it in a conversational I'm + +00:57:52.360 --> 00:57:52.600 +gonna meet you where you're at and we're + +00:57:53.440 --> 00:57:53.940 +gonna walk with it together. + +00:57:56.480 --> 00:57:56.980 +And then when I was done with the tutorial, + +00:57:58.420 --> 00:57:58.740 +I said, you know, Space Max, + +00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:00.060 +I don't understand it. + +00:58:00.920 --> 00:58:01.420 +And it's got some performance. + +00:58:04.180 --> 00:58:04.300 +It looks like there's like extra stuff that I + +00:58:08.420 --> 00:58:08.920 +may not need. So I went vanilla, + +00:58:11.780 --> 00:58:12.280 +nothing Emacs and just started working. + +00:58:14.060 --> 00:58:14.560 +I was like, well, how do you do this? + +00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:17.460 +[Speaker 2]: Although 5 minutes of Space Max or any of + +00:58:19.600 --> 00:58:20.100 +those Emacs distribution shows you + +00:58:22.360 --> 00:58:22.860 +unequivocally how different it can be. + +00:58:25.880 --> 00:58:26.380 +[Speaker 1]: It was, it was, it was so amazing, + +00:58:31.600 --> 00:58:32.100 +and it was so good. But I knew my nature was, + +00:58:34.780 --> 00:58:35.140 +I was frustrated in, like I wrote an Atom + +00:58:37.780 --> 00:58:38.280 +package, and that was awful. + +00:58:42.860 --> 00:58:43.360 +It was so terrible. But I knew what I wanted. + +00:58:48.280 --> 00:58:48.480 +And then I wrote, I started writing a VS code + +00:58:49.640 --> 00:58:49.840 +and I'm like, oh no, no, + +00:58:50.800 --> 00:58:51.300 +no, we're not here for this. + +00:58:55.520 --> 00:58:55.800 +And so, yeah, SpaceMax showed me like this + +00:59:00.600 --> 00:59:00.760 +can look and feel like a space that I used to + +00:59:03.920 --> 00:59:04.420 +be in. And then it has more functionality, + +00:59:07.440 --> 00:59:07.940 +more stuff. It's gonna be great. + +00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:10.380 +And then I just was like, + +00:59:11.880 --> 00:59:12.380 +I'm gonna go find my own. + +00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:16.200 +I'm really happy that I took the path because + +00:59:19.300 --> 00:59:19.640 +I just worked, wrote, and I'm like, + +00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:21.380 +I bet you this, I bet you the tool, + +00:59:22.540 --> 00:59:22.960 +I know it can do this because it, + +00:59:24.620 --> 00:59:25.120 +you know, text me, did this or Adam, + +00:59:27.800 --> 00:59:28.300 +I'm gonna go, I went on to Melpa and I found + +00:59:29.440 --> 00:59:29.940 +a couple different things. + +00:59:31.120 --> 00:59:31.440 +I'm like, all right, let's try them. + +00:59:32.320 --> 00:59:32.640 +I'm like, that's the 1, + +00:59:34.480 --> 00:59:34.980 +great. Roll it in, keep working. + +00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:36.500 +I know it can do this. + +00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:40.160 +Find a package. And so I built up this sense + +00:59:46.060 --> 00:59:46.160 +of the packages and my strategy was go to + +00:59:49.680 --> 00:59:49.940 +Melpa, look at, that was the 1 that showed + +00:59:52.540 --> 00:59:53.040 +up, look at the number of downloads. + +00:59:54.520 --> 00:59:54.960 +So I'm like, what's the high stuff? + +00:59:55.900 --> 00:59:56.400 +What really gets used? + +00:59:57.680 --> 00:59:58.180 +There's something there. + +01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:00.760 +And then also look at what was most recently + +01:00:03.420 --> 01:00:03.580 +updated. So kind of pivot on those along with + +01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:07.260 +a keyword search and I found the tools that + +01:00:17.780 --> 01:00:18.100 +worked well. But it really came down to like + +01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:20.460 +that VS Code I was almost in, + +01:00:24.400 --> 01:00:24.640 +but I've been around long enough to know what + +01:00:25.560 --> 01:00:26.060 +Microsoft will do. + +01:00:32.240 --> 01:00:32.540 +[Speaker 2]: For me, I was always like customizing things. + +01:00:34.600 --> 01:00:35.100 +I think I saw some interesting emacs videos. + +01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:42.720 +I wanted to try Well, I wanted to try working + +01:00:44.500 --> 01:00:44.720 +more with the keyboard and not need I think + +01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:47.300 +[Speaker 1]: mm-hmm + +01:00:51.180 --> 01:00:51.680 +[Speaker 2]: the mouse on a laptop And so I was looking + +01:00:54.380 --> 01:00:54.520 +explicitly for ways to just work on the + +01:00:56.920 --> 01:00:57.400 +keyboard only, which meant that I wasn't + +01:00:59.060 --> 01:00:59.560 +looking for programs that followed Cua, + +01:01:04.400 --> 01:01:04.900 +which really leaves you like 2 options, + +01:01:10.960 --> 01:01:11.380 +Vim and Emacs. And when I looked at the 2, + +01:01:13.940 --> 01:01:14.100 +I saw 1 of the big differentiating factors I + +01:01:15.660 --> 01:01:16.020 +saw was Tramp, which was, + +01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:18.600 +oh, you mean I get a SSH into a machine and + +01:01:19.840 --> 01:01:20.340 +have my customizations too? + +01:01:22.740 --> 01:01:23.240 +[Speaker 1]: Yep. Yeah. + +01:01:29.140 --> 01:01:29.540 +[Speaker 2]: And then I started using Emacs more and more. + +01:01:34.440 --> 01:01:34.860 +Eventually I combined that with a tiling + +01:01:36.400 --> 01:01:36.900 +window manager, NixOS, + +01:01:40.840 --> 01:01:41.040 +and started banishing as much of the GUI as I + +01:01:44.060 --> 01:01:44.560 +possibly could, running MPV or VLC, + +01:01:49.180 --> 01:01:49.400 +so I could edit so that my config files could + +01:01:53.720 --> 01:01:54.020 +be keyboard oriented. My settings config + +01:01:55.920 --> 01:01:56.420 +menus are now keyboard oriented. + +01:02:00.860 --> 01:02:01.080 +And yeah, that was the incremental process of + +01:02:04.400 --> 01:02:04.900 +just, yeah, making the computer nicer, + +01:02:06.680 --> 01:02:06.860 +more efficient, and then you figure out all + +01:02:08.080 --> 01:02:08.580 +the other advantages of the... + +01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:13.780 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. How did you get in to it, + +01:02:18.940 --> 01:02:19.440 +[Speaker 2]: Oh, you're lost. + +01:02:21.840 --> 01:02:22.340 +[Speaker 1]: Sasha? Your sound is gone. + +01:02:27.345 --> 01:02:27.845 +[Speaker 3]: Sorry, my face mute button. + +01:02:29.600 --> 01:02:29.800 +Okay, I'll tell you that story, + +01:02:30.840 --> 01:02:31.080 +I get thought out of my head, + +01:02:32.780 --> 01:02:33.240 +so I forget it. But what you described, + +01:02:34.900 --> 01:02:35.080 +Jerry, about kind of starting with the + +01:02:37.340 --> 01:02:37.540 +distribution and then pulling back and + +01:02:39.140 --> 01:02:39.520 +starting with vanilla and building up, + +01:02:41.040 --> 01:02:41.320 +kind of close the stories that I've heard + +01:02:42.980 --> 01:02:43.480 +from a lot of people in the community where + +01:02:46.600 --> 01:02:46.800 +the distribution gives them kind of an end + +01:02:48.140 --> 01:02:48.640 +goal, at least work requirements, + +01:02:50.280 --> 01:02:50.600 +So get the stuff done and they're not + +01:02:52.260 --> 01:02:52.760 +slugging through the weeds around the start. + +01:02:55.440 --> 01:02:55.760 +I have a hard time modifying it because + +01:02:57.440 --> 01:02:57.720 +modifying the distribution itself is very + +01:02:59.140 --> 01:02:59.640 +different from the tools they see. + +01:03:01.520 --> 01:03:01.740 +They feel like they want to understand the + +01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:02.820 +different possible part. + +01:03:04.240 --> 01:03:04.540 +And so then they pull back and say, + +01:03:06.300 --> 01:03:06.800 +okay, I've got this thing that can use + +01:03:08.360 --> 01:03:08.680 +everything to just get some quick work done, + +01:03:10.380 --> 01:03:10.760 +but I have this thing that I can call, + +01:03:13.500 --> 01:03:13.680 +that's mine. And I understand because I'm + +01:03:15.960 --> 01:03:16.460 +building it up from the ground up. + +01:03:19.540 --> 01:03:19.640 +Okay, so that's like, oh, + +01:03:21.500 --> 01:03:21.660 +interesting, there's a lot of people who are + +01:03:23.940 --> 01:03:24.280 +like that, and it really helps them to both + +01:03:27.240 --> 01:03:27.620 +have that insight, which is see through + +01:03:29.540 --> 01:03:29.780 +distributions and also videos of other + +01:03:32.060 --> 01:03:32.220 +people's workflows and press kind of + +01:03:34.080 --> 01:03:34.500 +conference presentations often about + +01:03:35.140 --> 01:03:35.540 +completely different topics, + +01:03:37.540 --> 01:03:37.700 +right? So someone whizzing through Ruby on + +01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:40.420 +Rails or whatever else and doing all of this. + +01:03:43.580 --> 01:03:44.040 +But also having 1 help them break out, + +01:03:46.560 --> 01:03:46.760 +okay, well, there's a lot of work from where + +01:03:47.900 --> 01:03:48.160 +I am to where that is. + +01:03:49.740 --> 01:03:50.240 +How do I do it without being overwhelmed? + +01:03:51.400 --> 01:03:52.960 +Because if they try to learn everything, + +01:03:55.520 --> 01:03:55.760 +they'll go crazy. And then they'll fall. + +01:03:57.500 --> 01:03:58.000 +And the brain is super important. + +01:04:01.500 --> 01:04:01.860 +And how I got into this whole eMac thing was + +01:04:03.520 --> 01:04:03.780 +I was reading all the computer science books + +01:04:06.180 --> 01:04:06.480 +in the university library and 1 of the Unix + +01:04:09.160 --> 01:04:09.360 +power tools had a chapter on Emacs and had + +01:04:11.040 --> 01:04:11.320 +them you know well there's another type of + +01:04:14.440 --> 01:04:14.760 +whatever. Okay that's interesting so I went + +01:04:17.080 --> 01:04:17.320 +and tried it out But the reason I really got + +01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:19.780 +into it was because I was using John Wigley's + +01:04:23.520 --> 01:04:23.760 +Planner Mode. This was before Org Mode came + +01:04:25.320 --> 01:04:25.600 +about. So Planner Mode was a link. + +01:04:27.040 --> 01:04:27.540 +I said, hey, this is great. + +01:04:29.380 --> 01:04:29.880 +I'm looking for ways to help out. + +01:04:31.560 --> 01:04:32.060 +If you need help verifying any bugs, + +01:04:34.160 --> 01:04:34.660 +you know, send it to me and I'll do the + +01:04:37.540 --> 01:04:37.840 +figuring out. He's an author and an inventor. + +01:04:37.960 --> 01:04:38.100 +[Speaker 2]: And then + +01:04:39.480 --> 01:04:39.980 +[Speaker 3]: he made me the miniature for it. + +01:04:42.720 --> 01:04:42.880 +So I'm like, okay. And then that's how I got + +01:04:44.680 --> 01:04:45.140 +to know this wonderful community of people + +01:04:46.840 --> 01:04:47.340 +who customize emacs so much. + +01:04:51.680 --> 01:04:52.180 +And it just goes there because really, + +01:04:54.100 --> 01:04:54.240 +when you see all these different ways that + +01:04:55.860 --> 01:04:56.360 +people use in all these different stories + +01:05:00.060 --> 01:05:00.480 +that you get send off because they're using + +01:05:03.960 --> 01:05:04.460 +it to bake sourdough bread and do knitting + +01:05:06.700 --> 01:05:06.880 +and all the crazy things that people come up + +01:05:08.900 --> 01:05:09.400 +with. I've been using it as an audio editor. + +01:05:11.000 --> 01:05:11.500 +It's just weird. It's just fun. + +01:05:13.100 --> 01:05:13.600 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, that's great. + +01:05:19.640 --> 01:05:20.020 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah. Every, Sasha, like 2 things that I was + +01:05:22.900 --> 01:05:23.040 +meaning to say is every time I see the on the + +01:05:26.140 --> 01:05:26.580 +EMAX conference the time that the scratch + +01:05:29.900 --> 01:05:30.400 +buffer with the big clock that is ticking + +01:05:34.980 --> 01:05:35.480 +down as and the multi multiple sized fonts As + +01:05:37.720 --> 01:05:37.900 +I always think wow, that's really cool. + +01:05:38.980 --> 01:05:39.280 +I didn't know Emacs could do that. + +01:05:40.440 --> 01:05:40.940 +Wait, no, I saw that last year. + +01:05:43.860 --> 01:05:44.060 +How do you do, now, how do I do that? + +01:05:45.360 --> 01:05:45.480 +Cause that's not, and that's not something I + +01:05:46.920 --> 01:05:47.420 +normally even think about Emacs doing. + +01:05:48.080 --> 01:05:48.580 +[Speaker 1]: Right. + +01:05:51.220 --> 01:05:51.720 +[Speaker 2]: I'll think about putting + +01:05:55.760 --> 01:05:56.260 +[Speaker 3]: There's an EmacsConf-stream.el + +01:05:59.760 --> 01:06:00.260 +in the EmacsConf-el repository. + +01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:04.160 +Grab the link and open but you can grab the + +01:06:07.940 --> 01:06:08.260 +code from there. It's basically the text + +01:06:08.260 --> 01:06:08.760 +property. + +01:06:15.020 --> 01:06:15.480 +[Speaker 2]: But it's a thought that has repeated multiple + +01:06:17.140 --> 01:06:17.460 +years. Like, I didn't know we could do that + +01:06:18.220 --> 01:06:18.720 +way. I thought about that. + +01:06:21.260 --> 01:06:21.600 +I had this exact thought last year when I saw + +01:06:21.600 --> 01:06:22.100 +it. + +01:06:28.260 --> 01:06:28.480 +[Speaker 1]: It's, we're like, I'm at the point where it's + +01:06:31.220 --> 01:06:31.620 +like I have memories of remembering doing + +01:06:34.540 --> 01:06:35.040 +something. I don't have memories of doing it. + +01:06:36.680 --> 01:06:37.180 +Like all of the things. + +01:06:40.560 --> 01:06:41.060 +Like so it's again, we, + +01:06:45.240 --> 01:06:45.740 +Emacs helps expose like the, + +01:06:48.640 --> 01:06:49.140 +like it's, anything's possible. + +01:06:53.300 --> 01:06:53.560 +And we see how it becomes possible through + +01:06:55.640 --> 01:06:56.120 +other people. And then it gets our brains + +01:06:57.780 --> 01:06:58.140 +thinking about other ways of doing stuff. + +01:06:59.920 --> 01:07:00.420 +And I think that's the exciting part. + +01:07:02.360 --> 01:07:02.860 +Dog who wants to go play Frisbee. + +01:07:07.900 --> 01:07:08.080 +[Speaker 3]: And that's actually 1 of the reasons why I + +01:07:11.060 --> 01:07:11.320 +want to encourage people to not only talk + +01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:12.980 +about Emacs and write Emacs blog posts, + +01:07:15.380 --> 01:07:15.520 +but also actually demonstrate Emacs in the + +01:07:16.560 --> 01:07:17.060 +sense of doing something else. + +01:07:20.220 --> 01:07:20.720 +So for example, we can match people at Emacs + +01:07:23.560 --> 01:07:24.000 +if you're presenting about Ruby on Rails and + +01:07:27.040 --> 01:07:27.440 +you're doing all of your and education and + +01:07:30.240 --> 01:07:30.480 +things while you're presenting Rails, + +01:07:32.900 --> 01:07:33.400 +you reach all these people who are interested + +01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:34.780 +in Rails, developer Rails, + +01:07:36.260 --> 01:07:36.760 +but might not have even considered Emacs. + +01:07:41.920 --> 01:07:42.420 +And here, you know, you probably would. + +01:07:44.860 --> 01:07:45.060 +I would probably have a hard time writing an + +01:07:47.040 --> 01:07:47.540 +entire talk about adding text properties, + +01:07:49.540 --> 01:07:49.760 +but the fact that there's a thing here that + +01:07:50.800 --> 01:07:51.300 +shows, hey, this is possible, + +01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:53.300 +Emacs can get people to think, + +01:07:54.880 --> 01:07:55.380 +okay, so how do I get from here to there? + +01:07:57.440 --> 01:07:57.940 +Just showing the possible. + +01:08:02.120 --> 01:08:02.360 +Yeah. Which source code is in the, + +01:08:02.360 --> 01:08:02.860 +whatchamacallit. + +01:08:04.600 --> 01:08:05.100 +[Speaker 1]: Right, yeah. Yeah, I just saw that. + +01:08:08.240 --> 01:08:08.740 +[Speaker 2]: There's a weird interesting thing how Emacs + +01:08:12.540 --> 01:08:12.720 +dovetails with people who are interested in + +01:08:15.940 --> 01:08:16.439 +making their own local first Zettelkasten, + +01:08:17.720 --> 01:08:18.220 +because look at how many Zettelkasten + +01:08:21.300 --> 01:08:21.600 +packages you have. Especially with how much, + +01:08:23.800 --> 01:08:24.100 +like it feels like, it seems like Emacs has + +01:08:27.439 --> 01:08:27.939 +more than Vim, but Vim is bigger or VS, + +01:08:30.140 --> 01:08:30.420 +feels like it has more than Vim or VS Code, + +01:08:31.920 --> 01:08:32.319 +and VS Code's bigger. I'm not sure, + +01:08:36.819 --> 01:08:37.319 +but it feels like it. Same thing with that + +01:08:39.920 --> 01:08:40.420 +HyperCore. That HyperCore felt more like a + +01:08:42.540 --> 01:08:43.040 +local first peer-to-peer system. + +01:08:48.240 --> 01:08:48.640 +So there's a weird dovetail where they want + +01:08:52.279 --> 01:08:52.779 +the knowledge bases that are local first, + +01:08:58.260 --> 01:08:58.359 +comprehensive, because 1 of the properties of + +01:09:03.500 --> 01:09:03.740 +the Zettelkasten or Org Mode agendas is that + +01:09:07.359 --> 01:09:07.819 +it's all your notes in 1 place. + +01:09:14.439 --> 01:09:14.760 +It's not, you know, your notes in either pad + +01:09:19.540 --> 01:09:20.040 +and your notes in Google Calendar, + +01:09:23.180 --> 01:09:23.680 +your notes in 20 different places, + +01:09:24.520 --> 01:09:25.020 +your notes in Evernote. + +01:09:28.700 --> 01:09:29.060 +It's your notes in 1 program in 1 place + +01:09:30.840 --> 01:09:31.080 +because you have to deal with them And + +01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:32.800 +they're going to be in files on your hard + +01:09:34.279 --> 01:09:34.779 +drive, and you're going to have packages + +01:09:37.080 --> 01:09:37.359 +there. That's the other weird thing too, + +01:09:40.240 --> 01:09:40.600 +is how many, like, you install an Emacs + +01:09:41.399 --> 01:09:41.899 +package, 1 of the guarantees, + +01:09:43.439 --> 01:09:43.640 +some of the guarantees you seem to get with + +01:09:46.260 --> 01:09:46.680 +it is if it does use an external program, + +01:09:48.399 --> 01:09:48.580 +it's going to have a lot of configuration in + +01:09:51.020 --> 01:09:51.520 +Emacs. It's going to be installed. + +01:09:53.760 --> 01:09:54.260 +It's going to be local first. + +01:09:56.780 --> 01:09:57.100 +Cause like you have flow bits, + +01:09:59.340 --> 01:09:59.840 +but how many programs like are, + +01:10:05.140 --> 01:10:05.280 +are cloud first. And it feels like most of + +01:10:06.820 --> 01:10:07.320 +those are like org Trello, + +01:10:10.160 --> 01:10:10.520 +where it's like, I want to use org mode, + +01:10:12.040 --> 01:10:12.540 +but other people use Trello. + +01:10:15.460 --> 01:10:15.780 +So I'm going to be grudgingly using this org + +01:10:17.400 --> 01:10:17.660 +Trello to be a bridge between the 2, + +01:10:19.200 --> 01:10:19.640 +not because I wanted to use org, + +01:10:21.240 --> 01:10:21.360 +not because I wanted to use Trello in the + +01:10:23.200 --> 01:10:23.320 +first place or I started off with Trello and + +01:10:24.280 --> 01:10:24.780 +now I wanna use org mode. + +01:10:27.680 --> 01:10:28.180 +[Speaker 1]: Right, no, you're that local first. + +01:10:37.020 --> 01:10:37.400 +The Thought I have is with the 2022 interest + +01:10:43.080 --> 01:10:43.580 +rates going up, the era of free money, + +01:10:46.520 --> 01:10:47.020 +or even like getting money for more, + +01:10:49.960 --> 01:10:50.180 +more money than it actually costs Like it was + +01:10:55.600 --> 01:10:56.100 +minting money. We are going to be seeing how + +01:10:59.440 --> 01:10:59.940 +these organizations that had financial + +01:11:01.840 --> 01:11:02.340 +runways, all of these cloud services, + +01:11:06.760 --> 01:11:07.020 +what's not gonna last because there's no + +01:11:12.440 --> 01:11:12.880 +funding. And like the durability of our local + +01:11:16.400 --> 01:11:16.900 +first plain text, free open source stuff. + +01:11:21.320 --> 01:11:21.820 +Like I won't have to do a content migration + +01:11:24.320 --> 01:11:24.740 +unless I get a B of my bonnet and want to + +01:11:27.700 --> 01:11:27.880 +like change from org mode to markdown for + +01:11:30.660 --> 01:11:30.920 +some reason. Like I have it and Then I can + +01:11:32.980 --> 01:11:33.480 +send it out. So there's also like that posse + +01:11:36.400 --> 01:11:36.900 +principle publish on-site syndicate + +01:11:41.660 --> 01:11:41.820 +everywhere Is what emacs and vim like they + +01:11:42.780 --> 01:11:43.280 +allow for us to do? + +01:11:46.440 --> 01:11:46.620 +[Speaker 2]: Well, that's part of the individuation is you + +01:11:48.900 --> 01:11:49.080 +have multiple options of doing something so + +01:11:51.580 --> 01:11:51.820 +you can choose something so you can take + +01:11:54.360 --> 01:11:54.860 +ownership of your data in the way you want. + +01:12:00.220 --> 01:12:00.380 +It all dovetails into each other and I think + +01:12:02.840 --> 01:12:03.260 +that's something worth thinking about, + +01:12:05.540 --> 01:12:05.800 +especially in relation with who should learn + +01:12:08.040 --> 01:12:08.440 +and how should you introduce Emacs to people, + +01:12:14.180 --> 01:12:14.420 +because like, with the idea of people should + +01:12:16.560 --> 01:12:16.800 +try an Emacs distribution and then start + +01:12:17.240 --> 01:12:17.740 +their own from scratch, + +01:12:18.880 --> 01:12:19.120 +just so that they, like, + +01:12:20.280 --> 01:12:20.640 +if you use it for 10 minutes, + +01:12:24.400 --> 01:12:24.820 +you'll gain so much because you use your 3 + +01:12:25.760 --> 01:12:26.260 +and then all of a sudden you realize, + +01:12:29.180 --> 01:12:29.440 +you also know how malleable Emacs can be. + +01:12:30.520 --> 01:12:30.960 +And then you start saying, + +01:12:32.000 --> 01:12:32.160 +now, how do I do that? + +01:12:33.240 --> 01:12:33.740 +So I get to make those choices? + +01:12:34.840 --> 01:12:35.340 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. + +01:12:39.340 --> 01:12:39.520 +[Speaker 2]: Or you might say, this person did it well + +01:12:40.320 --> 01:12:40.820 +enough, I don't have to. + +01:12:43.500 --> 01:12:43.900 +[Speaker 3]: That reminded me of something that I also + +01:12:45.360 --> 01:12:45.860 +wanted to mention, shocking word, + +01:12:49.040 --> 01:12:49.280 +as in malleability. Another tip I came + +01:12:50.600 --> 01:12:50.900 +across, don't know from whom, + +01:12:51.500 --> 01:12:51.700 +might have been from you, + +01:12:53.440 --> 01:12:53.940 +I don't know, is to define aliases, + +01:12:56.320 --> 01:12:56.460 +because we use different words from what the + +01:12:58.680 --> 01:12:59.180 +functions are. It's 1 of those little meta + +01:13:00.420 --> 01:13:00.720 +things that, you know, + +01:13:02.080 --> 01:13:02.580 +If you keep calling it something else, + +01:13:05.900 --> 01:13:06.020 +just define it so that you can call it like + +01:13:06.760 --> 01:13:07.260 +commencing your words. + +01:13:12.440 --> 01:13:12.740 +[Speaker 1]: it's interesting. Anyway, + +01:13:14.020 --> 01:13:14.240 +[Speaker 3]: Yeah. Yeah, gotta go disappear and get ready + +01:13:17.220 --> 01:13:17.360 +for my dog. Okay, I'll listen to what you + +01:13:18.120 --> 01:13:18.280 +say. All right, I + +01:13:20.020 --> 01:13:20.520 +[Speaker 1]: I need to take my dogs out and play Frisbee. + +01:13:21.780 --> 01:13:22.280 +They have been so patient. + +01:13:26.040 --> 01:13:26.200 +So it was great talking with all of you and + +01:13:29.640 --> 01:13:30.040 +Sasha, thanks for the organizing energy + +01:13:31.680 --> 01:13:32.120 +you've put into this. Plasma Strike, + +01:13:32.800 --> 01:13:33.300 +thank you for your presentation. + +01:13:34.860 --> 01:13:35.360 +I love this conference. + +01:13:36.660 --> 01:13:37.160 +So thank you very much. + +01:13:41.760 --> 01:13:42.260 +And now have a good rest of your Sunday. + +01:13:43.100 --> 01:13:43.600 +Bye. |