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+WEBVTT
+
+
+00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:03.840
+All right. Hi again, everyone.
+
+00:00:03.840 --> 00:00:04.839
+It's been a while. Well,
+
+00:00:04.839 --> 00:00:06.980
+actually, it's been like 2 minutes tops.
+
+00:00:07.819 --> 00:00:09.099
+We were just with John Wheatley,
+
+00:00:09.099 --> 00:00:11.019
+and now we are with Stefan Krangas.
+
+00:00:11.120 --> 00:00:15.900
+Hi. Hi. So as we said before,
+
+00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:20.600
+Stefan is co-maintainer now of Is it the
+
+00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:22.920
+entire Emacs project? How do you describe
+
+00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:26.260
+this? Yeah, co-maintainer of GNU Emacs.
+
+00:00:27.439 --> 00:00:29.380
+Right, perfect. So you know what?
+
+00:00:29.380 --> 00:00:31.760
+Because I'm sure everyone is dying to hear
+
+00:00:32.420 --> 00:00:33.840
+everything you've got to say in your
+
+00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:36.040
+presentation I'm just going to shut up now
+
+00:00:36.040 --> 00:00:37.640
+and leave the floor to you.
+
+00:00:37.640 --> 00:00:39.440
+Do you need to share your screen or anything?
+
+00:00:40.080 --> 00:00:45.239
+No. Okay great well I'll just cut my webcam
+
+00:00:45.239 --> 00:00:47.059
+off I'll still be in the background so do not
+
+00:00:47.059 --> 00:00:48.940
+hesitate if you've got any problem I'm still
+
+00:00:48.940 --> 00:00:52.560
+around And I'll see you just beacon whenever
+
+00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:53.940
+you're done. And I'll show up with the
+
+00:00:53.940 --> 00:00:56.120
+questions. All right? Thank you,
+
+00:00:56.120 --> 00:00:58.739
+Leo. And thank you, everyone,
+
+00:00:58.739 --> 00:01:02.379
+for being here. I'm Stefan Kangas.
+
+00:01:02.739 --> 00:01:06.660
+So as Leo explained, I am recently appointed
+
+00:01:06.680 --> 00:01:09.660
+as a co-maintainer of GNU Emacs,
+
+00:01:10.960 --> 00:01:13.400
+which a role that I'm fulfilling currently
+
+00:01:13.780 --> 00:01:17.460
+with Eli Sretsky, who's been co-maintainer
+
+00:01:18.840 --> 00:01:23.320
+for quite some time. So I got the question to
+
+00:01:23.320 --> 00:01:26.780
+be a co-maintainer from Richard in August
+
+00:01:26.780 --> 00:01:29.280
+this year. And of course,
+
+00:01:29.600 --> 00:01:31.460
+when you get a question like that,
+
+00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:34.020
+I couldn't not say yes.
+
+00:01:34.360 --> 00:01:39.440
+So here we are. I can't tell you how excited
+
+00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:45.060
+I am to have this opportunity to address the
+
+00:01:45.060 --> 00:01:47.380
+community in this way.
+
+00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:49.800
+I'm really humbled, of course,
+
+00:01:50.380 --> 00:01:55.040
+to be part of it, and to be able to serve the
+
+00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:59.080
+community in this capacity.
+
+00:02:00.080 --> 00:02:04.080
+I've used Emacs, I think many of you might
+
+00:02:04.080 --> 00:02:06.820
+also have used Emacs for quite some time,
+
+00:02:06.820 --> 00:02:11.100
+but I'm going on 2 decades as an Emacs user.
+
+00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:14.280
+My involvement in Emacs Lisp development is,
+
+00:02:14.280 --> 00:02:16.160
+I mean, almost as long,
+
+00:02:16.660 --> 00:02:19.680
+but my core development goes back only 4,
+
+00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:26.700
+5 years. I have to also thank the EmacsConf
+
+00:02:27.180 --> 00:02:28.840
+organizers who are doing,
+
+00:02:29.100 --> 00:02:31.960
+I think, a tremendous job and have done a
+
+00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:34.820
+tremendous job over the years in really
+
+00:02:34.820 --> 00:02:37.800
+building and strengthening what I think is
+
+00:02:38.300 --> 00:02:42.180
+this fantastic community of users and
+
+00:02:42.180 --> 00:02:46.120
+developers and people interested in Emacs.
+
+00:02:46.620 --> 00:02:50.100
+I actually had the chance to meet up with Eli
+
+00:02:50.100 --> 00:02:53.700
+Sretzky, as well as another Emacs hacker,
+
+00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:57.080
+Andrea Corallo, when I was at the GNU
+
+00:02:57.980 --> 00:03:00.460
+project's 40 years celebration,
+
+00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:04.340
+40 years since the GNU project was announced.
+
+00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:08.540
+And it was very inspiring in general to meet
+
+00:03:09.660 --> 00:03:12.780
+people. And I think EmacsConf should also,
+
+00:03:12.980 --> 00:03:18.360
+I think, serve to inspire and sort of help
+
+00:03:19.020 --> 00:03:22.120
+bring something to the type of work that many
+
+00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:24.340
+of us are doing to improve Emacs,
+
+00:03:24.340 --> 00:03:26.200
+whether it's in package development or in
+
+00:03:26.200 --> 00:03:29.680
+core, to bring out the new and exciting ideas
+
+00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:34.040
+and get people enthusiastic about Emacs,
+
+00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:37.580
+about hacking on Emacs.
+
+00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:45.400
+This is my little attempt to contribute with
+
+00:03:45.600 --> 00:03:49.440
+let's say 2 things. I will first try to
+
+00:03:49.600 --> 00:03:54.400
+present how we do Emacs core development and
+
+00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:58.360
+why we've done some of the choices that we
+
+00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:02.060
+have, because We have seen at times that
+
+00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:06.500
+perhaps people aren't always clear on this or
+
+00:04:06.500 --> 00:04:08.660
+that aspect. So maybe this will be
+
+00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:12.260
+enlightening. I will also try to present some
+
+00:04:12.260 --> 00:04:17.860
+kind of vision for what Emacs could be with
+
+00:04:18.060 --> 00:04:21.680
+your help. Emacs is already very good,
+
+00:04:21.820 --> 00:04:26.880
+as we all know, but we could be even better.
+
+00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:29.940
+That's the reality of any type of software
+
+00:04:30.060 --> 00:04:35.100
+development. So the overall idea of this talk
+
+00:04:35.220 --> 00:04:38.380
+is to tell you, if you're an Emacs list
+
+00:04:38.380 --> 00:04:40.460
+package developer today,
+
+00:04:40.760 --> 00:04:44.200
+why you should become an Emacs core
+
+00:04:44.440 --> 00:04:47.300
+developer, and the sort of steps that you
+
+00:04:47.300 --> 00:04:49.340
+might want to take to do that,
+
+00:04:49.340 --> 00:04:52.100
+or how you can help Emacs core development.
+
+00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:54.320
+Even if you're just a user and you found a
+
+00:04:54.320 --> 00:04:57.340
+bug, report it. Perhaps you have a feature
+
+00:04:57.340 --> 00:04:58.820
+request that you'd like to discuss.
+
+00:04:58.820 --> 00:05:02.680
+I think we need more interaction in general
+
+00:05:02.900 --> 00:05:04.900
+between Emacs core developers,
+
+00:05:05.080 --> 00:05:06.440
+typically on emacsdevil.gnu.org,
+
+00:05:08.440 --> 00:05:12.420
+the mailing list that we use to coordinate
+
+00:05:12.840 --> 00:05:14.880
+our development efforts,
+
+00:05:15.860 --> 00:05:19.520
+between Emacs devil package developers and
+
+00:05:19.520 --> 00:05:22.460
+users, Because there is so much great stuff
+
+00:05:22.500 --> 00:05:24.740
+really going on in the community.
+
+00:05:25.520 --> 00:05:28.620
+But I think sometimes the step to core
+
+00:05:28.740 --> 00:05:32.500
+development seems big and perhaps even a
+
+00:05:32.500 --> 00:05:35.440
+little bit scary. So I'm hoping to be able to
+
+00:05:35.440 --> 00:05:38.720
+help bridge that gap, even if just a little
+
+00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:43.000
+bit. We need more people contributing to
+
+00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:46.740
+Emacs itself. And also a small disclaimer
+
+00:05:46.840 --> 00:05:49.920
+here, in this talk I will only be able to
+
+00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:53.700
+speak for myself, not for GNU or the Emacs
+
+00:05:53.760 --> 00:05:56.100
+project, even if it's like a little bit more
+
+00:05:56.500 --> 00:05:58.780
+official, but I will also try to give the
+
+00:05:58.780 --> 00:06:01.720
+view of the project where it makes sense to
+
+00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:04.200
+do so. Keep in mind, I'm only 1 of the
+
+00:06:04.200 --> 00:06:06.820
+maintainers, the co-maintainer together with
+
+00:06:06.820 --> 00:06:09.820
+Eli, and I can't just make decisions
+
+00:06:09.880 --> 00:06:11.400
+arbitrarily. In a sense,
+
+00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:14.180
+I'm as a co-maintainer and trusted as a
+
+00:06:14.180 --> 00:06:15.420
+steward and trusted by,
+
+00:06:15.420 --> 00:06:16.680
+of course, the GNU project,
+
+00:06:16.680 --> 00:06:22.000
+but also by the community That we really
+
+00:06:22.580 --> 00:06:24.180
+can't just take decisions,
+
+00:06:24.440 --> 00:06:27.380
+I think, arbitrarily. Even if it sometimes
+
+00:06:27.380 --> 00:06:30.560
+perhaps may seem so, or it may feel that way,
+
+00:06:31.100 --> 00:06:35.080
+we really have to realize that we can't just
+
+00:06:35.080 --> 00:06:39.200
+push too much of just a personal agenda to
+
+00:06:39.200 --> 00:06:41.520
+the extent that it doesn't line up with what
+
+00:06:41.520 --> 00:06:45.260
+is best for eMacs going forward,
+
+00:06:47.500 --> 00:06:50.320
+and the more overall picture of that.
+
+00:06:50.320 --> 00:06:52.640
+So there are limitations that come with the
+
+00:06:52.640 --> 00:06:59.940
+job, if you like. So 1 question I often,
+
+00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:02.280
+I actually got this week when I started a new
+
+00:07:02.280 --> 00:07:04.500
+assignment at work, and I got the question
+
+00:07:06.280 --> 00:07:08.720
+when I said I'm involved in Emacs
+
+00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:10.400
+development. And then someone asked,
+
+00:07:10.400 --> 00:07:12.480
+oh, is Emacs still developed?
+
+00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:16.400
+Isn't it done almost? And I answered to that,
+
+00:07:16.400 --> 00:07:17.880
+yes, we are still around.
+
+00:07:17.880 --> 00:07:21.940
+We're going on 40 years now as a software
+
+00:07:21.940 --> 00:07:25.940
+project. Not many projects actually can claim
+
+00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:29.020
+that type of longevity.
+
+00:07:29.540 --> 00:07:33.900
+But Emacs is among those few that can.
+
+00:07:33.900 --> 00:07:36.340
+And of course, we have had some very exciting
+
+00:07:36.340 --> 00:07:38.000
+developments in recent versions.
+
+00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:41.600
+I think John just gave you an update on that.
+
+00:07:41.980 --> 00:07:46.160
+But we had just some highlights out of many
+
+00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:47.940
+highlights that you could give,
+
+00:07:48.580 --> 00:07:50.920
+really, we got the TreeSetter support in
+
+00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:54.320
+Emacs 29 that we now need to sort of extend
+
+00:07:54.320 --> 00:07:56.340
+and develop. We have merged EGLOT,
+
+00:07:56.380 --> 00:07:59.440
+so we have LSP support out of the box,
+
+00:07:59.440 --> 00:08:00.980
+I think is a huge improvement.
+
+00:08:01.400 --> 00:08:02.960
+Native compilation, of course,
+
+00:08:02.960 --> 00:08:06.520
+a big feature. I mean,
+
+00:08:06.580 --> 00:08:08.900
+that was Andrea's job,
+
+00:08:08.900 --> 00:08:11.260
+really, for performance.
+
+00:08:11.460 --> 00:08:14.020
+And it turns out that in many types of
+
+00:08:14.020 --> 00:08:15.720
+workloads and the types of stuff that people
+
+00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:17.580
+are doing, it often matters.
+
+00:08:18.080 --> 00:08:21.180
+And we're hoping to make that the default,
+
+00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:24.960
+perhaps already in Emacs 30.
+
+00:08:24.960 --> 00:08:26.840
+So there are things that are happening that
+
+00:08:26.840 --> 00:08:31.680
+fundamentally make Emacs better at a very
+
+00:08:32.200 --> 00:08:37.360
+core level. So, of course,
+
+00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:41.679
+why wouldn't you want to be involved in such
+
+00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:43.440
+an exciting and, I think,
+
+00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:51.240
+dynamic project? How is Emacs developed?
+
+00:08:51.660 --> 00:08:53.000
+Well, this is, I think,
+
+00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:54.180
+perhaps to some people,
+
+00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:56.300
+a little bit more of a threshold,
+
+00:08:56.520 --> 00:08:59.100
+if you like, because I think all of us know
+
+00:08:59.100 --> 00:09:02.640
+really that there is exciting and cool stuff
+
+00:09:02.980 --> 00:09:06.560
+that is going on in Emacs and has been going
+
+00:09:06.560 --> 00:09:08.260
+on over the last couple of years and we'll
+
+00:09:08.260 --> 00:09:10.040
+see even more of that,
+
+00:09:10.040 --> 00:09:11.180
+I think, going forward.
+
+00:09:12.600 --> 00:09:16.580
+1 thing is that communication still takes
+
+00:09:16.580 --> 00:09:20.340
+place over a mailing list in 2023.
+
+00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:23.800
+So we have emacsdevil at gnu.org,
+
+00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:26.140
+and that's where we develop Emacs.
+
+00:09:26.680 --> 00:09:30.140
+We use, we send patches back and forth,
+
+00:09:30.140 --> 00:09:31.360
+we comment on patches.
+
+00:09:32.700 --> 00:09:36.420
+And actually this workflow is very good,
+
+00:09:36.700 --> 00:09:39.580
+if you're used to it. Because guess what?
+
+00:09:39.580 --> 00:09:42.200
+As Emacs users, we like doing everything we
+
+00:09:42.200 --> 00:09:45.220
+can in Emacs, especially the core tasks that
+
+00:09:45.220 --> 00:09:49.980
+we're doing, such as developing Emacs itself.
+
+00:09:50.140 --> 00:09:52.860
+Of course, you want to do that fully within
+
+00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:55.440
+Emacs. So we hack Emacs Lisp in Emacs,
+
+00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:58.840
+we hack C in Emacs, we respond to emails also
+
+00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:02.700
+from Emacs, respond to bug reports,
+
+00:10:02.700 --> 00:10:05.040
+manage bug reports. We do all that stuff
+
+00:10:05.460 --> 00:10:07.840
+very, very smoothly. And it doesn't really
+
+00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:10.540
+matter in a sense, what is the medium?
+
+00:10:10.560 --> 00:10:12.080
+It happens to be email.
+
+00:10:12.180 --> 00:10:14.160
+Technically it could be anything,
+
+00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:16.720
+but email really has that type of staying
+
+00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:19.640
+power where we've been able to use it for a
+
+00:10:19.640 --> 00:10:21.260
+long time. And this is how,
+
+00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:24.000
+and we're still able to use it.
+
+00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:25.800
+And this is how free software was always
+
+00:10:25.800 --> 00:10:26.640
+developed in the past.
+
+00:10:26.640 --> 00:10:28.380
+Only in the last, let's say 10,
+
+00:10:28.380 --> 00:10:32.440
+15 years, We've had more development taking
+
+00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:35.560
+place perhaps on forges like GitHub,
+
+00:10:35.580 --> 00:10:39.160
+GitLab, whatever. But we are 1 of the
+
+00:10:39.160 --> 00:10:40.680
+holdouts. I mean, there are others,
+
+00:10:40.680 --> 00:10:42.560
+of course, like the Linux kernel has mailing
+
+00:10:42.560 --> 00:10:44.340
+lists. They're not trying to do that scale
+
+00:10:44.340 --> 00:10:47.580
+development on GitHub.
+
+00:10:49.280 --> 00:10:51.360
+And this is not just because we're Luddites
+
+00:10:51.760 --> 00:10:53.560
+that refuse to change.
+
+00:10:53.560 --> 00:10:55.380
+We just have to do it in the old way,
+
+00:10:55.380 --> 00:10:57.120
+because it is the old way,
+
+00:10:57.120 --> 00:10:58.680
+and that's the way it should be.
+
+00:10:58.780 --> 00:11:00.420
+No, it's actually because we,
+
+00:11:01.220 --> 00:11:03.460
+as core developers, the core development team
+
+00:11:03.460 --> 00:11:05.460
+and the people already involved and doing
+
+00:11:05.460 --> 00:11:08.560
+tremendous, I mean large amounts of work in
+
+00:11:08.560 --> 00:11:12.480
+Emacs has very efficient workflows built up
+
+00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:15.620
+based on this. So of course,
+
+00:11:15.620 --> 00:11:17.780
+I mean moving to something else is something
+
+00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:20.180
+that we might like to do,
+
+00:11:20.580 --> 00:11:24.400
+but we're not yet clear on how to do it
+
+00:11:24.400 --> 00:11:26.100
+exactly and what to move to.
+
+00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:28.380
+So these are the types of discussions that
+
+00:11:28.380 --> 00:11:30.280
+we're looking at. Can we still support a
+
+00:11:30.280 --> 00:11:34.040
+mailing, an email type workflow while moving
+
+00:11:34.040 --> 00:11:36.100
+to something else? That would be 1 of the big
+
+00:11:36.100 --> 00:11:38.400
+ones. I think another thing that trips people
+
+00:11:38.400 --> 00:11:40.840
+up is that we used a bug tracker that,
+
+00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:42.620
+I mean, maybe some people,
+
+00:11:42.620 --> 00:11:45.560
+I've heard people say it's archaic.
+
+00:11:47.020 --> 00:11:49.900
+It's called Debugs. I think maybe Debugs gets
+
+00:11:49.900 --> 00:11:52.000
+a bit of a bad rap. I think that bugs is a
+
+00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:53.100
+good piece of software.
+
+00:11:53.520 --> 00:11:55.160
+It wasn't developed in 2023.
+
+00:11:55.580 --> 00:11:57.540
+I mean, that's much as clear.
+
+00:11:57.660 --> 00:11:58.880
+It's a little bit older,
+
+00:11:59.060 --> 00:12:01.320
+but it really is a workhorse of the Debian
+
+00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:03.820
+project, which is obviously a project that's
+
+00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:09.400
+developed in a very different way than Emacs
+
+00:12:09.400 --> 00:12:11.880
+is. It's on a completely different scale,
+
+00:12:11.880 --> 00:12:12.840
+of course, much bigger,
+
+00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:14.980
+many more developers, and so on.
+
+00:12:15.040 --> 00:12:17.800
+But I think the developers did a good job for
+
+00:12:17.800 --> 00:12:20.240
+the time. But it might be showing its age,
+
+00:12:20.920 --> 00:12:23.160
+perhaps, in places. Perhaps,
+
+00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:25.120
+again, it's the email workflow.
+
+00:12:25.260 --> 00:12:27.720
+And people see that as a little bit of a
+
+00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:30.180
+threshold. It seems alien.
+
+00:12:30.180 --> 00:12:31.300
+It's a little bit strange,
+
+00:12:32.220 --> 00:12:34.980
+the types of workflows that you have there.
+
+00:12:35.220 --> 00:12:38.860
+So we are seeing some limitations with that
+
+00:12:38.860 --> 00:12:40.940
+box. And again, how do you report bugs?
+
+00:12:41.020 --> 00:12:42.600
+Well, in a sense, it's easy.
+
+00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:46.660
+You send an email to bug-gnu-emacs at gnu.org
+
+00:12:47.620 --> 00:12:51.340
+and you copy in whatever you get from,
+
+00:12:51.340 --> 00:12:53.300
+you know, report the EMAX bug or if you have,
+
+00:12:53.300 --> 00:12:55.120
+you know, send mail set up locally,
+
+00:12:55.580 --> 00:12:58.700
+just hit control C, control C and it's sent
+
+00:12:58.700 --> 00:13:01.720
+to the bug tracker and that's fine.
+
+00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:08.680
+But also I have to mention that there is this
+
+00:13:08.680 --> 00:13:10.600
+very good package on GNU Elpas.
+
+00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:13.540
+If you're ever trying to read the Emacs bug
+
+00:13:13.540 --> 00:13:16.500
+tracker or following along in Emacs
+
+00:13:16.500 --> 00:13:19.000
+development, I really recommend install the
+
+00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:21.300
+package devbugs from GNU Elpa.
+
+00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:24.140
+It's so good. And again,
+
+00:13:24.140 --> 00:13:26.580
+it's built on GNU, it's all integrated in
+
+00:13:26.580 --> 00:13:30.040
+Emacs, it's so much better than using the web
+
+00:13:30.660 --> 00:13:33.220
+and so on. And if you really want to get into
+
+00:13:33.220 --> 00:13:38.040
+it, you can download the bug tracker archives
+
+00:13:38.140 --> 00:13:39.500
+and the mailing list archives,
+
+00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:41.260
+and you can put them locally,
+
+00:13:41.260 --> 00:13:42.380
+you can have them searchable,
+
+00:13:42.740 --> 00:13:44.440
+and you can have whatever experience you
+
+00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:47.340
+like. So, I mean, it's really a flexible
+
+00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:51.240
+workflow, but it's a bit strange,
+
+00:13:51.260 --> 00:13:52.620
+perhaps, to some people.
+
+00:13:53.460 --> 00:13:58.120
+So we also think supporting only this
+
+00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:00.140
+workflow might be a little bit too limiting.
+
+00:14:00.660 --> 00:14:04.200
+So we do want to move over to something like
+
+00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:06.760
+GitLab, perhaps Sourcehat or something
+
+00:14:06.760 --> 00:14:10.460
+similar. We've had a couple of discussions
+
+00:14:10.760 --> 00:14:14.000
+about that over the last couple of years.
+
+00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:15.820
+I think even before that,
+
+00:14:15.820 --> 00:14:18.940
+but that's how far back I've been involved,
+
+00:14:18.940 --> 00:14:21.800
+and definitely it's come up occasionally.
+
+00:14:23.100 --> 00:14:27.900
+I think we are less far away than perhaps
+
+00:14:27.940 --> 00:14:30.560
+ever is how I would express that,
+
+00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:36.680
+and in the sense that the remaining blockers
+
+00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:38.640
+for just making the shift,
+
+00:14:38.640 --> 00:14:40.200
+let's say, are I think,
+
+00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:42.120
+I mean, first of all, we're talking about
+
+00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:44.020
+limitations, perhaps in the software,
+
+00:14:44.020 --> 00:14:46.420
+they're well defined, and they're not as
+
+00:14:46.420 --> 00:14:49.060
+amountable. I don't think they have to be in
+
+00:14:49.060 --> 00:14:50.840
+any case. We should be able to make some
+
+00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:54.660
+progress. The main thing that we're lacking
+
+00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:58.480
+now is not more discussion or more people
+
+00:15:00.800 --> 00:15:03.120
+prodding us to just please switch over.
+
+00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:04.580
+No, we're looking for volunteers.
+
+00:15:05.980 --> 00:15:08.380
+If you think that you,
+
+00:15:08.400 --> 00:15:10.960
+you know, have what it takes to sort of come
+
+00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:14.060
+in and help us do something like that and
+
+00:15:14.060 --> 00:15:15.040
+work together with us,
+
+00:15:15.040 --> 00:15:16.840
+you know, to see what can be done,
+
+00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:20.200
+perhaps some, a few things would need to be
+
+00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:23.220
+changed in GitLab. I don't think anything
+
+00:15:23.220 --> 00:15:26.120
+huge, but maybe there are some patches to be
+
+00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:27.880
+written and sent upstream,
+
+00:15:27.980 --> 00:15:30.280
+or maybe we need to do some local hacks or
+
+00:15:30.280 --> 00:15:33.140
+whatever. If you wanna do that,
+
+00:15:33.140 --> 00:15:34.860
+please contact us, emacsdevil.
+
+00:15:35.460 --> 00:15:38.940
+We'll be very happy to talk to you.
+
+00:15:38.940 --> 00:15:40.460
+And then we can start making progress.
+
+00:15:40.520 --> 00:15:42.740
+So I'm really hoping that that sound like
+
+00:15:42.740 --> 00:15:46.620
+will come into place. But we need to,
+
+00:15:46.780 --> 00:15:52.340
+if we do switch over, we need to preserve the
+
+00:15:52.340 --> 00:15:54.820
+good parts of our email-based workflows.
+
+00:15:54.820 --> 00:15:57.140
+So there are requirements there so that we
+
+00:15:57.140 --> 00:16:00.180
+can continue to do our job as maintainers,
+
+00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:04.900
+if you like. Another thing is that we've
+
+00:16:04.900 --> 00:16:08.340
+sometimes seen that there's a bit of a
+
+00:16:08.340 --> 00:16:11.380
+different culture perhaps on mailing lists
+
+00:16:11.380 --> 00:16:15.060
+and on Emacs devil than what many people are
+
+00:16:15.060 --> 00:16:17.580
+used to, especially like you've used perhaps,
+
+00:16:17.800 --> 00:16:20.540
+many people might be in university and
+
+00:16:20.540 --> 00:16:23.500
+they've started using Emacs,
+
+00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:25.820
+maybe got into a little bit of package
+
+00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:29.060
+development and starting to get the ropes of
+
+00:16:29.060 --> 00:16:32.540
+that and are very used to working on places
+
+00:16:32.560 --> 00:16:35.460
+like GitLab or something like that,
+
+00:16:35.460 --> 00:16:38.000
+then the type of culture and way of
+
+00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:42.040
+communicating that we use in Emacs might be a
+
+00:16:42.040 --> 00:16:44.440
+little bit different. And of course,
+
+00:16:44.540 --> 00:16:47.360
+it's different in the sense that mailing
+
+00:16:47.380 --> 00:16:49.900
+lists have always, I mean,
+
+00:16:49.900 --> 00:16:51.060
+let's say hacker culture,
+
+00:16:51.060 --> 00:16:52.120
+whatever you want to call it,
+
+00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:54.400
+have always communicated in a particular way
+
+00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:58.340
+using mailing lists. So it's like succinct to
+
+00:16:58.340 --> 00:17:00.320
+the point, perhaps I'm skipping a few
+
+00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:03.340
+pleasantries. And the idea is that you should
+
+00:17:03.340 --> 00:17:08.000
+just use it in as effective way as possible,
+
+00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:11.099
+so that also the archives are usable.
+
+00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:13.660
+And the other thing is that generally people
+
+00:17:13.660 --> 00:17:16.500
+involved in developing free software has to
+
+00:17:16.500 --> 00:17:19.660
+deal with a lot of incoming traffic,
+
+00:17:19.780 --> 00:17:25.900
+emails. They don't have the bandwidth if it's
+
+00:17:25.900 --> 00:17:28.220
+too much noise. You really need to be strict
+
+00:17:28.220 --> 00:17:31.840
+to keep the signal to noise ratio high.
+
+00:17:31.840 --> 00:17:35.280
+We have some weird terminology on the Emacs
+
+00:17:35.280 --> 00:17:38.040
+devil. People tell us,
+
+00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:40.680
+we say sometimes install patches which
+
+00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:44.180
+basically means push to master or merge pull
+
+00:17:44.180 --> 00:17:46.720
+requests because we've used other version
+
+00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.600
+control systems in the past where it might
+
+00:17:48.600 --> 00:17:50.700
+have made more sense to say install patches.
+
+00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:52.540
+And then you sort of, I don't know,
+
+00:17:52.540 --> 00:17:54.380
+I say it. Don't ask me why.
+
+00:17:54.380 --> 00:17:56.040
+But it feels natural after a while.
+
+00:17:56.040 --> 00:17:57.720
+You install a patch. It's clear what you
+
+00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:02.280
+mean. You don't have to worry about which
+
+00:18:02.280 --> 00:18:05.940
+branch it's on. So it's a little bit
+
+00:18:06.600 --> 00:18:10.120
+historical there. So there is some of that
+
+00:18:10.120 --> 00:18:11.960
+culture going on. It might be different.
+
+00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:14.200
+We don't use emojis that much.
+
+00:18:14.220 --> 00:18:16.680
+That's another thing. There is no like,
+
+00:18:16.840 --> 00:18:20.900
+you can click the little like button at the
+
+00:18:20.900 --> 00:18:25.080
+bottom of a comment or an email as you could
+
+00:18:25.080 --> 00:18:27.740
+on GitHub. But there are exceptions and it's
+
+00:18:27.740 --> 00:18:29.600
+not like someone will send you angry emails
+
+00:18:29.600 --> 00:18:31.480
+if you use an emoji or something like that.
+
+00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:34.200
+But it can come off as perhaps Because people
+
+00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:37.180
+are pressed for time also when replying to
+
+00:18:37.260 --> 00:18:39.400
+all these emails. So it might come off as a
+
+00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:42.880
+little bit short, but that's just how it is.
+
+00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:46.880
+And I think We have heard this comment before
+
+00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:50.680
+that mailing lists are scary or Emacs devil
+
+00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:54.380
+is scary or core development is scary.
+
+00:18:54.780 --> 00:18:58.180
+And I've touched a few of these points a
+
+00:18:58.180 --> 00:18:59.620
+little bit already. I think,
+
+00:18:59.620 --> 00:19:01.500
+yeah, maybe a little bit.
+
+00:19:02.320 --> 00:19:05.740
+For example, we don't use emojis very short
+
+00:19:06.820 --> 00:19:10.940
+in the communication. And we always use
+
+00:19:10.940 --> 00:19:13.240
+correct grammar and spelling.
+
+00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:15.920
+We take that seriously because it's important
+
+00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:19.060
+for being clear in your written communication
+
+00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:21.540
+when all you have is written communication.
+
+00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:23.740
+It's really important.
+
+00:19:26.760 --> 00:19:31.400
+But it's not like If you come in there and
+
+00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:33.580
+you don't know all these cultural rules and
+
+00:19:33.580 --> 00:19:36.380
+all these patterns, then you know you will We
+
+00:19:36.380 --> 00:19:37.900
+won't talk to you No Actually,
+
+00:19:37.900 --> 00:19:41.100
+we try to be as welcoming as we can and and
+
+00:19:41.100 --> 00:19:44.600
+be mindful and you know people not Everyone
+
+00:19:44.600 --> 00:19:46.700
+has English as their native language,
+
+00:19:47.080 --> 00:19:49.200
+for example. So perhaps someone says
+
+00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:51.360
+something, and it might come off as rude,
+
+00:19:51.360 --> 00:19:53.200
+but maybe it's just a direct translation.
+
+00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:56.520
+So we're trying to give a lot of whatever the
+
+00:19:56.520 --> 00:19:59.760
+native language is. So we try to give a lot
+
+00:19:59.760 --> 00:20:01.780
+of leeway and just be a little bit,
+
+00:20:01.780 --> 00:20:03.580
+you know, flexible and focus on,
+
+00:20:03.580 --> 00:20:04.920
+you know, the key, key points,
+
+00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:06.580
+which are the technical things,
+
+00:20:06.580 --> 00:20:07.760
+the technical decisions,
+
+00:20:07.840 --> 00:20:09.280
+technical arguments, rather than,
+
+00:20:09.280 --> 00:20:11.920
+you know, getting bogged down in a lot of,
+
+00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:15.360
+you know, personal, you know,
+
+00:20:15.360 --> 00:20:19.220
+discussions and flame wars.
+
+00:20:19.300 --> 00:20:21.260
+So, I mean, there are these things to be
+
+00:20:21.260 --> 00:20:23.160
+aware of, you know, it's just a little bit
+
+00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:24.980
+different. I don't think it's anything huge.
+
+00:20:25.080 --> 00:20:26.620
+And I wouldn't be, you know,
+
+00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:30.480
+I think it would be sad if people felt too
+
+00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:32.320
+intimidated by that. It just is what it is.
+
+00:20:32.320 --> 00:20:33.540
+And if you spend some time there,
+
+00:20:33.540 --> 00:20:35.960
+you'll see how people generally communicate.
+
+00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:41.260
+Sometimes, there are a lot of people on
+
+00:20:41.260 --> 00:20:43.600
+EmacsDevil. It's a public mailing list.
+
+00:20:43.660 --> 00:20:46.240
+A lot of people just sign up to follow Emacs
+
+00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:48.860
+development. Sometimes they chime in.
+
+00:20:48.940 --> 00:20:50.820
+And I think this is in general a good thing.
+
+00:20:50.820 --> 00:20:53.300
+I think it should be a public mailing list.
+
+00:20:53.680 --> 00:21:00.220
+Sometimes this leads to weird situations from
+
+00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:03.400
+just a point of view as an Emacs maintainer,
+
+00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:07.080
+right? I mean, I try to say something and it
+
+00:21:07.080 --> 00:21:08.240
+doesn't always say, oh,
+
+00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:10.020
+he's the maintainer or whatever.
+
+00:21:10.080 --> 00:21:11.200
+So when I say something,
+
+00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:13.380
+it should carry a little bit more weight than
+
+00:21:13.380 --> 00:21:16.160
+some unknown person from the internet who has
+
+00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:18.300
+an opinion and decided to send it to
+
+00:21:18.740 --> 00:21:21.020
+EmacsDevil. So it's good to be a little bit
+
+00:21:21.020 --> 00:21:23.160
+aware of who is a little bit more involved
+
+00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:25.280
+with the project. I would check out the
+
+00:21:25.280 --> 00:21:27.100
+maintainers file. I would check,
+
+00:21:27.380 --> 00:21:31.000
+see in the Git log, do these people actually
+
+00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:33.300
+have any anything in core?
+
+00:21:33.580 --> 00:21:35.260
+And if not, maybe, you know,
+
+00:21:35.860 --> 00:21:38.660
+there, we won't really,
+
+00:21:39.100 --> 00:21:41.000
+even if they express an opinion very
+
+00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:42.720
+strongly, even if they're a little bit rude,
+
+00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:44.700
+maybe they're not even involved in Emacs
+
+00:21:44.760 --> 00:21:46.340
+development. I mean, often,
+
+00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:48.460
+that's the case we have some people,
+
+00:21:48.460 --> 00:21:49.900
+unfortunately, at times,
+
+00:21:50.340 --> 00:21:52.720
+we have random people from the internet come
+
+00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:54.720
+in on the mailing list and they're just a
+
+00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:56.780
+little bit rude, or they say an opinion
+
+00:21:57.740 --> 00:21:59.620
+that's not exactly helpful.
+
+00:22:00.060 --> 00:22:02.320
+And I think you need to be aware.
+
+00:22:02.320 --> 00:22:04.340
+I mean, these things happen in any forum,
+
+00:22:04.340 --> 00:22:07.740
+but it happens on EmacsDevO as well.
+
+00:22:07.800 --> 00:22:10.680
+So just be a little bit aware of who you're
+
+00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:13.540
+talking to, what people are doing.
+
+00:22:13.700 --> 00:22:15.880
+It can help to Check the archives,
+
+00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:18.460
+see who writes what, and so on.
+
+00:22:20.320 --> 00:22:23.080
+But it's not something that I think is a huge
+
+00:22:23.080 --> 00:22:24.220
+problem. It is just, again,
+
+00:22:24.220 --> 00:22:25.780
+something to be aware of.
+
+00:22:25.900 --> 00:22:28.040
+We have the new kind of communication
+
+00:22:28.180 --> 00:22:30.820
+guidelines in place, which basically says
+
+00:22:30.820 --> 00:22:33.740
+that you should be nice to people and stay
+
+00:22:33.740 --> 00:22:36.060
+focused on the technical problem,
+
+00:22:36.060 --> 00:22:38.300
+try to see things from another person's point
+
+00:22:38.300 --> 00:22:39.360
+of view, this kind of stuff.
+
+00:22:39.360 --> 00:22:42.140
+So we're really trying to be as inclusive as
+
+00:22:42.140 --> 00:22:46.820
+possible and just stay correct in general.
+
+00:22:46.820 --> 00:22:48.380
+And sometimes, I mean,
+
+00:22:48.380 --> 00:22:50.060
+not everyone, it's a public list.
+
+00:22:50.060 --> 00:22:52.440
+We moderate it, but not to a huge extent,
+
+00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:57.840
+right? So sometimes people get away with a
+
+00:22:57.840 --> 00:23:02.260
+little bit of perhaps stretching the
+
+00:23:02.260 --> 00:23:04.700
+boundaries of what might be included in the
+
+00:23:04.700 --> 00:23:06.500
+kind communication guidelines,
+
+00:23:08.040 --> 00:23:10.940
+sort of the fences and limitations of that.
+
+00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:13.940
+But I would just ignore that.
+
+00:23:13.940 --> 00:23:15.700
+Sometimes it happens that we,
+
+00:23:15.860 --> 00:23:17.160
+as happens in any forum,
+
+00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:19.440
+by the way, you just, we have these very big
+
+00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:21.760
+threads. We start discussing something else.
+
+00:23:21.760 --> 00:23:24.300
+Perhaps you send us a patch and it just
+
+00:23:24.320 --> 00:23:26.360
+devolves into us discussing something
+
+00:23:26.360 --> 00:23:28.680
+completely different. And of course I partake
+
+00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:30.440
+in that, not better than anyone else,
+
+00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:32.940
+but it just happens. I mean,
+
+00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:34.800
+it's not your fault. It's just what happens
+
+00:23:34.800 --> 00:23:37.200
+sometimes in forums, and don't mind that.
+
+00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:39.120
+And it's a little bit easier to do that in
+
+00:23:39.120 --> 00:23:41.680
+emails, because you just change the subject,
+
+00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:43.580
+and now it's supposed to be a different
+
+00:23:43.580 --> 00:23:45.780
+thread, but it comes as replies usually to
+
+00:23:45.780 --> 00:23:48.480
+you, which wouldn't happen perhaps in a
+
+00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:49.960
+different workflow. So it's something to be
+
+00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:53.300
+aware of as well. Another thing is that,
+
+00:23:53.300 --> 00:23:54.680
+of course, in written communication,
+
+00:23:55.080 --> 00:23:56.620
+tone doesn't always come across.
+
+00:23:57.980 --> 00:23:59.240
+If someone sounds negative,
+
+00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:01.280
+sometimes it's just them being neutral.
+
+00:24:01.460 --> 00:24:05.400
+Sometimes you get no replies.
+
+00:24:05.500 --> 00:24:07.120
+You send something, you get no replies.
+
+00:24:07.120 --> 00:24:09.220
+And this could mean, actually it could mean,
+
+00:24:09.880 --> 00:24:11.500
+yeah, what you said was uncontroversial.
+
+00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:12.980
+We think it was a good idea.
+
+00:24:13.660 --> 00:24:16.360
+No 1 replied to it because either someone
+
+00:24:16.360 --> 00:24:18.960
+else would reply or just there was no need to
+
+00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:20.640
+reply because, yeah, why not?
+
+00:24:21.580 --> 00:24:24.060
+So but if you do send a patch and you don't
+
+00:24:24.060 --> 00:24:26.280
+get an answer, wait. I mean,
+
+00:24:26.280 --> 00:24:29.380
+don't wait 1, 2 days. Maybe we're busy or
+
+00:24:29.380 --> 00:24:30.520
+we're sick or whatever.
+
+00:24:30.840 --> 00:24:32.800
+Wait 2 weeks. It's fine to just send it
+
+00:24:32.800 --> 00:24:34.940
+again. If you send the patch to EmacsDevil,
+
+00:24:35.660 --> 00:24:37.040
+send it to the bug mailing list,
+
+00:24:37.040 --> 00:24:39.260
+because we lose track of stuff on EmacsDevil.
+
+00:24:39.800 --> 00:24:41.560
+That's just the reality of it.
+
+00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:46.080
+So if you propose making a change and no 1
+
+00:24:46.080 --> 00:24:48.340
+commented, feel free to ask us again if a
+
+00:24:48.340 --> 00:24:51.080
+patch would be welcome and we will clarify.
+
+00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:54.720
+Bug reports, unfortunately,
+
+00:24:54.780 --> 00:24:56.280
+if you get no answer, I mean,
+
+00:24:56.280 --> 00:24:59.740
+we do have a limited amount of time to work
+
+00:24:59.860 --> 00:25:02.360
+on bugs. If you're looking to get started in
+
+00:25:02.360 --> 00:25:05.520
+Emacs development, this is an excellent way
+
+00:25:05.740 --> 00:25:07.320
+to start getting involved.
+
+00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:09.960
+What I'd recommend is start looking into
+
+00:25:09.960 --> 00:25:11.420
+bugs. I'd install that bug,
+
+00:25:11.420 --> 00:25:13.860
+I'd see about the mailing workflow and set
+
+00:25:13.860 --> 00:25:15.800
+that up a little bit, or not.
+
+00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:17.960
+It's up to you. You can reply to an email
+
+00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:20.160
+without setting any of that stuff up.
+
+00:25:20.600 --> 00:25:22.480
+But just help us try out your bugs,
+
+00:25:22.540 --> 00:25:24.720
+send patches, do that type of stuff.
+
+00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:26.280
+I mean, that's an excellent way,
+
+00:25:26.280 --> 00:25:27.740
+and extremely welcome.
+
+00:25:27.740 --> 00:25:30.360
+We're so happy to see when people pick up bug
+
+00:25:30.360 --> 00:25:32.500
+reports that have been left by the wayside
+
+00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:34.580
+and just fix them, send us a patch,
+
+00:25:36.040 --> 00:25:37.520
+and we can just apply it.
+
+00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:40.360
+So that's really your starting point if you
+
+00:25:40.360 --> 00:25:43.600
+want to get involved in Emacs core
+
+00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:50.580
+development. I also want to say that be aware
+
+00:25:50.580 --> 00:25:54.020
+that you know Emacs is the editor of the GNU
+
+00:25:54.280 --> 00:25:56.820
+operating system and this makes the project
+
+00:25:56.820 --> 00:25:58.700
+political a little bit whether you like it or
+
+00:25:58.700 --> 00:26:01.380
+not. Luckily the you know the politics are
+
+00:26:01.560 --> 00:26:03.400
+limited enough that we can find broad
+
+00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:05.520
+agreement on it. So we want to promote,
+
+00:26:05.780 --> 00:26:08.420
+we want to create free software.
+
+00:26:08.860 --> 00:26:10.960
+That's sort of it. That's it.
+
+00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:13.740
+And there shouldn't be too much more to it,
+
+00:26:13.740 --> 00:26:15.600
+right? We want to rid the world of
+
+00:26:15.600 --> 00:26:19.700
+proprietary software as an evil thing.
+
+00:26:19.700 --> 00:26:21.920
+Ideally, all software should be free.
+
+00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:25.160
+But these are just the goals of the free
+
+00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:27.440
+software movement. So we're very strict with
+
+00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:29.660
+some things. We don't recommend non-free
+
+00:26:30.060 --> 00:26:31.320
+proprietary software. Of course,
+
+00:26:31.320 --> 00:26:33.180
+we have no problem mentioning Microsoft
+
+00:26:33.260 --> 00:26:35.140
+Windows because everyone knows that there's
+
+00:26:35.140 --> 00:26:39.280
+this obscure operating system developed in
+
+00:26:39.280 --> 00:26:41.760
+California that some people insist on using.
+
+00:26:42.040 --> 00:26:45.000
+We use, many of us use GNU plus Linux.
+
+00:26:45.060 --> 00:26:47.380
+Actually, some core developers happen to use
+
+00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:50.820
+exactly, you know, not GNU plus Linux,
+
+00:26:50.820 --> 00:26:52.600
+but that's fine as well,
+
+00:26:52.600 --> 00:26:54.820
+right? We take a little bit of a pragmatic
+
+00:26:54.860 --> 00:26:56.840
+view, but we don't wanna do,
+
+00:26:56.840 --> 00:26:59.020
+what we don't wanna do is promote like this
+
+00:26:59.020 --> 00:27:04.780
+small, unknown piece of non-free software and
+
+00:27:04.780 --> 00:27:08.400
+sort of help the non-free software in that
+
+00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:11.620
+way. That's where we try to draw the line,
+
+00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:15.760
+you know, in just expressing just a few
+
+00:27:15.760 --> 00:27:18.060
+words. So that's 1 thing.
+
+00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:21.620
+We're, I think, very pragmatic on this point,
+
+00:27:21.620 --> 00:27:24.900
+but we do try to follow the principle.
+
+00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:27.180
+We also require copyright assignment.
+
+00:27:27.700 --> 00:27:30.040
+And I think in general,
+
+00:27:30.620 --> 00:27:34.740
+the argument is that we require a copyright
+
+00:27:34.780 --> 00:27:38.940
+assignment, because that makes it easier to
+
+00:27:39.280 --> 00:27:43.440
+defend the legal status of the GNU Emacs
+
+00:27:43.640 --> 00:27:45.920
+source code. So if there's ever a legal
+
+00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:48.280
+battle, the idea is that if it's only 1
+
+00:27:48.280 --> 00:27:50.260
+copyright holder and you have a GPL
+
+00:27:50.320 --> 00:27:54.140
+violation, i.e. Someone might change Emacs
+
+00:27:54.140 --> 00:27:55.820
+and then distribute it as proprietary
+
+00:27:56.100 --> 00:27:58.040
+software or something nasty like that,
+
+00:27:58.040 --> 00:28:00.620
+then we have an easier way of defending it in
+
+00:28:00.620 --> 00:28:02.780
+court if there is only 1 copyright holder.
+
+00:28:02.780 --> 00:28:04.840
+So we assigned copyright to the Free Software
+
+00:28:04.840 --> 00:28:09.460
+Foundation. And I think there,
+
+00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:12.600
+I mean, sometimes people oppose this for
+
+00:28:12.600 --> 00:28:13.660
+various reasons, you know,
+
+00:28:13.660 --> 00:28:15.720
+people see it as, you know,
+
+00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:16.880
+maybe some people might say,
+
+00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:17.860
+you know, it's ideological,
+
+00:28:18.040 --> 00:28:19.340
+you know, who goes, you know,
+
+00:28:19.340 --> 00:28:21.360
+the FSF goes too far with this.
+
+00:28:21.700 --> 00:28:23.860
+And, and, I mean, that's fine.
+
+00:28:23.860 --> 00:28:25.580
+You that's, that's an opinion.
+
+00:28:25.640 --> 00:28:28.320
+And the there, then other people are more
+
+00:28:28.320 --> 00:28:30.040
+practical, you know, it's just,
+
+00:28:30.040 --> 00:28:31.360
+It's a hassle, basically,
+
+00:28:31.360 --> 00:28:33.220
+we don't want to sign these papers.
+
+00:28:33.640 --> 00:28:35.580
+And I'm not really here to tell anyone that
+
+00:28:35.580 --> 00:28:37.160
+they're wrong. I've expressed my views on
+
+00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:40.780
+this in the past. But just for now,
+
+00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:43.660
+I'm just very practical for the purposes of
+
+00:28:43.660 --> 00:28:46.500
+this talk. So I signed the papers.
+
+00:28:46.580 --> 00:28:49.280
+It's Maybe it didn't take me many minutes.
+
+00:28:49.280 --> 00:28:51.900
+And in most cases, it shouldn't really.
+
+00:28:52.580 --> 00:28:55.000
+And it's something that I found worth doing,
+
+00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:58.580
+because that way I could focus on continuing
+
+00:28:58.580 --> 00:29:01.360
+to improve Emacs instead of discussing the
+
+00:29:01.360 --> 00:29:03.220
+finer points of copyright law.
+
+00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:05.280
+You could write patches and stuff,
+
+00:29:05.280 --> 00:29:06.680
+that kind of thing. So,
+
+00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:08.480
+I mean, this is something that trips people
+
+00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:11.100
+up and, you know, it's fine that people have
+
+00:29:11.320 --> 00:29:14.200
+different opinions on it and so on,
+
+00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:19.280
+but I think for now that's just something to
+
+00:29:19.280 --> 00:29:23.000
+be aware of. So that's,
+
+00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:26.120
+I think, I mean, there's much more that could
+
+00:29:26.120 --> 00:29:27.880
+be said. Ideally, I would like to have a
+
+00:29:27.880 --> 00:29:31.060
+practical part to this talk as well.
+
+00:29:32.020 --> 00:29:34.440
+But I wanted to say something about the
+
+00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:37.159
+packages in Emacs. Because as we know,
+
+00:29:37.159 --> 00:29:40.440
+I mean, Emacs is the, I can't remember what
+
+00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:41.740
+it says, it's like a visual,
+
+00:29:42.260 --> 00:29:43.780
+there's in the manual it says,
+
+00:29:43.780 --> 00:29:45.900
+oh, Emacs is an advanced text editor.
+
+00:29:46.180 --> 00:29:47.980
+It's visual, which, I mean,
+
+00:29:47.980 --> 00:29:50.280
+it's not ed, the whole Unix ed,
+
+00:29:50.280 --> 00:29:52.700
+so that's cool. It's also customizable,
+
+00:29:53.300 --> 00:29:56.180
+right? So that's always been a thing.
+
+00:29:57.800 --> 00:29:59.980
+And what makes Emacs so amazing.
+
+00:30:00.040 --> 00:30:01.820
+And some people described it as,
+
+00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:03.880
+I can't remember who said that there has been
+
+00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:09.440
+a Cambrian explosion of packages in Emacs.
+
+00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:10.440
+And I think that's true.
+
+00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:12.400
+I mean, if you look at something like Melpa,
+
+00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:13.760
+I think they have over 5,000
+
+00:30:13.940 --> 00:30:16.220
+packages now. It's like truly impressive,
+
+00:30:16.460 --> 00:30:18.760
+just an immense amount of work and immense
+
+00:30:18.760 --> 00:30:22.320
+amount of packages. And really,
+
+00:30:22.860 --> 00:30:24.340
+this shows the strength,
+
+00:30:24.340 --> 00:30:26.600
+I think, of the Emacs community,
+
+00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:28.780
+of Emacs itself as an idea.
+
+00:30:29.060 --> 00:30:31.240
+And I think it's also just tremendous work
+
+00:30:31.240 --> 00:30:33.580
+that's been done by the maintainers.
+
+00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:36.040
+And they do get a lot of recognition for
+
+00:30:36.040 --> 00:30:38.900
+that. And rightly so, in my opinion.
+
+00:30:39.620 --> 00:30:41.920
+It's done so much, I think,
+
+00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:44.260
+for our community. The other package archive
+
+00:30:44.260 --> 00:30:46.340
+that we have is GNU-ELPA.
+
+00:30:46.620 --> 00:30:49.640
+And that's been enabled since when packages
+
+00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:51.000
+first got introduced back in,
+
+00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.160
+I think, Emacs, was it 23?
+
+00:30:55.520 --> 00:30:59.200
+And probably, I mean, the main thing why a
+
+00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:01.860
+package goes onto GNU Elpa is,
+
+00:31:01.860 --> 00:31:04.040
+you know, it should be installable out of the
+
+00:31:04.040 --> 00:31:07.580
+box. So, I mean, that's a big benefit in a
+
+00:31:07.580 --> 00:31:10.960
+sense. It's also a requirement for GNU Alpa
+
+00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:12.240
+that the copyright, again,
+
+00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:14.540
+just as GNU Emacs, the copyright is assigned
+
+00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:17.020
+to the Free Software Foundation.
+
+00:31:17.080 --> 00:31:19.940
+And some very hugely popular packages,
+
+00:31:20.020 --> 00:31:21.420
+like YaSnippet, for example,
+
+00:31:21.420 --> 00:31:25.060
+is on GNU Alpa. And we were discussing this
+
+00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:30.040
+just 2 months back. And Joe Tavora,
+
+00:31:30.060 --> 00:31:31.780
+I can't say his name, G-O-A-O,
+
+00:31:33.280 --> 00:31:36.100
+Tavora. He made the point that he's never
+
+00:31:36.140 --> 00:31:40.280
+seen a problem in any of his packages with
+
+00:31:40.280 --> 00:31:42.100
+copyright assignment in particular.
+
+00:31:42.100 --> 00:31:44.540
+It's never been a problem to get people to be
+
+00:31:44.540 --> 00:31:46.560
+involved in the development of those packages
+
+00:31:46.560 --> 00:31:48.220
+just because of the copyright assignment
+
+00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:50.640
+requirements. So I mean,
+
+00:31:51.180 --> 00:31:53.840
+that's his perspective on that.
+
+00:31:54.320 --> 00:32:00.480
+And I think it was worth relating his
+
+00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:06.500
+experience here. So we also have this new
+
+00:32:06.500 --> 00:32:08.500
+package archive called non-GNU-alpha,
+
+00:32:08.920 --> 00:32:12.880
+which is now enabled by default as well.
+
+00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:14.440
+I think for practical purposes,
+
+00:32:14.540 --> 00:32:16.880
+you could get into it a little bit more,
+
+00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:18.840
+you know, why we created non-NUELPA,
+
+00:32:19.940 --> 00:32:22.320
+and perhaps that's something we can discuss
+
+00:32:23.360 --> 00:32:26.240
+in the Q&A section. For practical purposes,
+
+00:32:26.380 --> 00:32:28.280
+the main thing to be aware of is,
+
+00:32:28.280 --> 00:32:30.980
+yes, we don't promote non-free software on
+
+00:32:30.980 --> 00:32:36.780
+there, And we also don't have the copyright
+
+00:32:36.780 --> 00:32:39.060
+assignment requirement.
+
+00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:43.820
+I think this is probably for new packages.
+
+00:32:43.940 --> 00:32:48.180
+It's generally better if they go to GNU Elpa,
+
+00:32:48.180 --> 00:32:51.220
+if there is any type of idea or ambition
+
+00:32:51.280 --> 00:32:53.460
+that, you know, at some point it would be
+
+00:32:53.460 --> 00:32:56.740
+good or it might be good to eventually have
+
+00:32:56.740 --> 00:32:58.900
+some type of functionality like this shipped
+
+00:32:58.900 --> 00:33:01.200
+with Emacs itself. So I think this is
+
+00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:04.020
+something that perhaps package authors could
+
+00:33:04.020 --> 00:33:07.340
+also be aware of, that occasionally we do
+
+00:33:07.340 --> 00:33:09.780
+bring in functionality from GNU Elpa into
+
+00:33:09.780 --> 00:33:12.180
+core Emacs because we feel that it should be
+
+00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:15.560
+better integrated with Emacs itself.
+
+00:33:16.420 --> 00:33:18.480
+So if I could give any type of
+
+00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:19.400
+recommendation, of course,
+
+00:33:19.400 --> 00:33:22.120
+you do. These are your packages,
+
+00:33:22.120 --> 00:33:25.520
+right? In an ideal world,
+
+00:33:25.520 --> 00:33:28.680
+we would only use this for legacy packages
+
+00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:30.240
+where people contributed in the past,
+
+00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:32.120
+but you didn't worry about the copyright
+
+00:33:32.120 --> 00:33:34.200
+assignment. But where possible,
+
+00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:37.480
+I think there is benefit in putting it on GNU
+
+00:33:37.540 --> 00:33:42.900
+Elpa. And I wanted to end a little bit on a
+
+00:33:42.900 --> 00:33:45.140
+more, you know, the more opinionated perhaps
+
+00:33:45.380 --> 00:33:47.260
+part of my talk and not just talk about
+
+00:33:47.260 --> 00:33:49.160
+processes. I see that I'm running out of
+
+00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:51.700
+time. So I will say Emacs is hackable.
+
+00:33:51.760 --> 00:33:54.520
+And I think that's a blessing and a curse.
+
+00:33:54.520 --> 00:33:56.340
+And if you think about something like,
+
+00:33:59.060 --> 00:34:01.100
+the types of choices that you can make,
+
+00:34:01.100 --> 00:34:03.040
+perhaps when you implement something,
+
+00:34:03.160 --> 00:34:06.680
+There are choices, different choices between
+
+00:34:06.680 --> 00:34:07.740
+something like common list,
+
+00:34:07.740 --> 00:34:09.440
+which is like bigger, more batteries
+
+00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:11.320
+included, and something like scheme,
+
+00:34:11.320 --> 00:34:12.239
+which is more minimal.
+
+00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:13.679
+And I think we have some of those,
+
+00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:16.280
+you know, this kind of tension also in the
+
+00:34:16.280 --> 00:34:18.159
+Emacs itself. What should be in Emacs core?
+
+00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:19.699
+Should we have a lean Emacs core?
+
+00:34:19.699 --> 00:34:21.800
+Should we have more stuff in Emacs core?
+
+00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:26.320
+And I think these are good discussions to
+
+00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:29.380
+have. And there are various challenges that
+
+00:34:29.380 --> 00:34:31.940
+are associated with each of those choices.
+
+00:34:32.540 --> 00:34:35.320
+I think what will never change is that Emacs
+
+00:34:35.320 --> 00:34:37.280
+is hackable. Emacs is customizable.
+
+00:34:37.500 --> 00:34:38.800
+This is the key strength.
+
+00:34:38.860 --> 00:34:40.960
+This is why we love and use Emacs.
+
+00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:41.820
+I think fundamentally,
+
+00:34:42.380 --> 00:34:44.280
+whether you do it a lot or not,
+
+00:34:44.380 --> 00:34:47.260
+this is what at core is bringing you that
+
+00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:49.179
+amazing user experience.
+
+00:34:50.739 --> 00:34:53.199
+However, the flip side of that sometimes is
+
+00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:56.280
+that it's so easy to hack Emacs so that we
+
+00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:58.520
+hack around bugs instead of fixing them.
+
+00:34:58.520 --> 00:35:00.540
+We do some tweak and our customers say,
+
+00:35:00.540 --> 00:35:01.720
+okay, this is a little bit broken,
+
+00:35:01.720 --> 00:35:03.560
+Let me just fix it. I'll put an advice on
+
+00:35:03.560 --> 00:35:05.700
+this function. I'll do this customization.
+
+00:35:06.500 --> 00:35:09.040
+Or we accept limitations in Emacs core.
+
+00:35:09.340 --> 00:35:12.100
+And I think it's fine.
+
+00:35:12.380 --> 00:35:13.760
+I mean, this will never change.
+
+00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:16.560
+That will always be core to what Emacs is,
+
+00:35:16.560 --> 00:35:20.140
+right? However, I think that the flip side of
+
+00:35:20.140 --> 00:35:22.500
+that is that I think sometimes we could be
+
+00:35:22.500 --> 00:35:26.760
+better at just taking those few extra steps
+
+00:35:26.820 --> 00:35:29.260
+to also make Emacs better itself and solve
+
+00:35:29.260 --> 00:35:31.680
+this for all users. And I think if we can
+
+00:35:31.680 --> 00:35:33.680
+build a little bit more of a culture like
+
+00:35:33.680 --> 00:35:35.460
+that, I mean, we already have that culture to
+
+00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:37.200
+a large extent, don't get me wrong,
+
+00:35:37.200 --> 00:35:39.620
+we do, but if we can get a little bit more of
+
+00:35:39.620 --> 00:35:41.320
+that culture, let's get that into core,
+
+00:35:41.320 --> 00:35:43.760
+let's get that problem fixed,
+
+00:35:43.980 --> 00:35:46.140
+that frustration. I can tell you that,
+
+00:35:47.040 --> 00:35:48.940
+I just started a new assignment at work,
+
+00:35:48.940 --> 00:35:51.420
+I already told you, so I'm going to write a
+
+00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:54.140
+lot of Python, okay? So I need to keep track
+
+00:35:54.140 --> 00:35:55.740
+of something called virtual environments,
+
+00:35:56.040 --> 00:35:58.260
+and that's just a way to install these
+
+00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:01.640
+dependencies just locally per directory or
+
+00:36:01.640 --> 00:36:03.420
+per repository kind of thing.
+
+00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:05.740
+And I've used various packages for that.
+
+00:36:05.740 --> 00:36:07.860
+There are like 4 packages,
+
+00:36:07.940 --> 00:36:10.560
+5 packages, maybe. And 1 is called VM,
+
+00:36:10.560 --> 00:36:11.740
+and 1 is called VirtualM,
+
+00:36:11.820 --> 00:36:13.640
+and 1 is called Python-VM.
+
+00:36:15.420 --> 00:36:16.980
+And now I'm using, you know,
+
+00:36:16.980 --> 00:36:18.100
+I'm using a different 1.
+
+00:36:18.100 --> 00:36:19.620
+And it's just a little bit,
+
+00:36:20.080 --> 00:36:22.160
+why doesn't this work out of the box in
+
+00:36:22.160 --> 00:36:25.680
+Emacs? Why? I don't think there's a really
+
+00:36:25.680 --> 00:36:28.640
+good fundamental good reason why something
+
+00:36:28.640 --> 00:36:30.460
+like that doesn't work in Emacs.
+
+00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:31.980
+So I think that's really,
+
+00:36:32.220 --> 00:36:35.220
+I mean, I'm sure there are other things like
+
+00:36:35.220 --> 00:36:37.280
+that, other fundamental features.
+
+00:36:37.740 --> 00:36:39.920
+Why is it that for the last 20 years,
+
+00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:43.740
+we've shipped Emacs with no PHP support out
+
+00:36:43.740 --> 00:36:47.660
+of the box? I mean, I'm not a PHP programmer.
+
+00:36:47.660 --> 00:36:51.020
+I don't really have a lot of love for PHP,
+
+00:36:51.020 --> 00:36:56.020
+let's say. To me, it's a very funny-looking
+
+00:36:57.180 --> 00:37:00.060
+language, but okay, still it's been very
+
+00:37:00.060 --> 00:37:02.060
+popular. Why haven't we supported it?
+
+00:37:02.120 --> 00:37:03.280
+I mean, it's just strange.
+
+00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:05.040
+You install Emacs on some machine,
+
+00:37:05.220 --> 00:37:07.260
+you open a PHP file, you get fundamental
+
+00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:09.160
+mode. It's not the best user experience,
+
+00:37:09.160 --> 00:37:12.600
+in my opinion. So I think there are some
+
+00:37:12.600 --> 00:37:15.480
+things where we really could do a little bit
+
+00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:20.200
+better. And I'm seeing this all the time.
+
+00:37:20.200 --> 00:37:22.500
+Just this week, this new assignment was
+
+00:37:22.500 --> 00:37:24.640
+interesting. There was this Emacs user.
+
+00:37:24.720 --> 00:37:26.980
+Turns out we have the exact same hack in both
+
+00:37:26.980 --> 00:37:29.860
+of our init files. So we had created the
+
+00:37:29.860 --> 00:37:32.140
+exact same mode for DIRED,
+
+00:37:32.140 --> 00:37:33.920
+actually, to hide dot files.
+
+00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:36.720
+You know, dot something is supposed to be
+
+00:37:36.720 --> 00:37:39.440
+hidden on a Unix system.
+
+00:37:40.240 --> 00:37:43.940
+So we had DERED hide dot files mode to just
+
+00:37:43.940 --> 00:37:47.100
+hide them. And why isn't that in DERED?
+
+00:37:47.100 --> 00:37:48.420
+Or should it be in DERED?
+
+00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:50.860
+Should it be a package on the new Elpa?
+
+00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:53.000
+Where should it be? Why is it just local
+
+00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:54.680
+hack? Should it be on a wiki somewhere?
+
+00:37:54.680 --> 00:37:56.740
+I mean, sometimes that's the correct answer.
+
+00:37:56.980 --> 00:37:59.060
+Sometimes the correct answer is,
+
+00:37:59.060 --> 00:38:00.420
+yes, it should be a package.
+
+00:38:00.780 --> 00:38:02.360
+Sometimes the correct answer is,
+
+00:38:02.360 --> 00:38:04.140
+yes, it should really be in core.
+
+00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:06.420
+So what I want to promote is more like,
+
+00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:08.900
+let's just take a step back and just ask
+
+00:38:08.900 --> 00:38:11.180
+yourself, what's the best solution if we look
+
+00:38:11.180 --> 00:38:12.240
+at the overall picture?
+
+00:38:12.240 --> 00:38:13.920
+Should I hack this into my configuration?
+
+00:38:14.600 --> 00:38:16.840
+In many cases, yes, that's the right thing to
+
+00:38:16.840 --> 00:38:19.540
+do. We don't want to proliferate just random
+
+00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:22.160
+solutions all over Emacs for no reason.
+
+00:38:22.540 --> 00:38:24.760
+But sometimes we want to fix it once and for
+
+00:38:24.760 --> 00:38:27.700
+all. We want to do that in core.
+
+00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:30.200
+So you could send stuff like that to us as
+
+00:38:30.200 --> 00:38:31.480
+patches or as packages.
+
+00:38:31.560 --> 00:38:34.340
+And we can discuss a little bit about where
+
+00:38:34.340 --> 00:38:36.420
+should we solve this? What's the right level
+
+00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:41.100
+of abstraction? I'm seeing that I'm running
+
+00:38:41.100 --> 00:38:43.620
+out of time. I had an Emacs wish list.
+
+00:38:43.620 --> 00:38:46.880
+Maybe we can take more of that in the Q&A.
+
+00:38:47.170 --> 00:38:49.226
+But I want to say, like,
+
+00:38:49.226 --> 00:38:50.460
+in VS Code, you just start VS Code.
+
+00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:51.660
+You open a Python file,
+
+00:38:51.660 --> 00:38:53.040
+and you get, like, hey,
+
+00:38:53.040 --> 00:38:54.560
+are you trying to use Python?
+
+00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:56.280
+Click here, install Python.
+
+00:38:56.280 --> 00:38:58.700
+You get all the nice things out of the box.
+
+00:38:59.180 --> 00:39:01.560
+And my argument is, why can't we have more of
+
+00:39:01.560 --> 00:39:03.880
+that in Emacs? I don't think it's necessarily
+
+00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:06.360
+hard, but it does take a little bit of work.
+
+00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:09.060
+The challenges here are more social,
+
+00:39:09.060 --> 00:39:10.880
+I think, than technical.
+
+00:39:10.900 --> 00:39:12.780
+And I think it's worth doing,
+
+00:39:12.780 --> 00:39:14.060
+because it's not just Python.
+
+00:39:14.060 --> 00:39:16.640
+It's just There are always these small things
+
+00:39:16.640 --> 00:39:18.900
+where it just really should work,
+
+00:39:18.900 --> 00:39:20.900
+and that would be a much better experience.
+
+00:39:20.900 --> 00:39:23.360
+And then you could customize not that thing
+
+00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:24.600
+that should just work,
+
+00:39:24.640 --> 00:39:27.140
+but you could customize more fun and
+
+00:39:27.140 --> 00:39:29.620
+exploratory things instead of people
+
+00:39:29.620 --> 00:39:31.720
+reinventing the wheel over and over again.
+
+00:39:31.720 --> 00:39:33.420
+So I'm very excited about what's happening in
+
+00:39:33.420 --> 00:39:35.280
+Emacs. I think we should be proud of what
+
+00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:37.360
+we've accomplished. It's so many things to
+
+00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:38.360
+many different people,
+
+00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:39.660
+an environment for hacking,
+
+00:39:40.040 --> 00:39:41.620
+just a productivity system.
+
+00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:44.020
+Other sees us as a different way of looking
+
+00:39:44.020 --> 00:39:45.360
+at computing, you know,
+
+00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:47.440
+the embodiment of the ideal of the Lisp
+
+00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:49.280
+machine if you want to talk big words and
+
+00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:50.660
+stuff like that. And of course,
+
+00:39:50.660 --> 00:39:53.320
+Emacs are all those things and so many more.
+
+00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:55.440
+And that's what makes Emacs so amazing.
+
+00:39:56.280 --> 00:40:00.780
+And in some sense, we should be care that
+
+00:40:00.780 --> 00:40:03.040
+people are satisfied with using lesser text
+
+00:40:03.040 --> 00:40:05.600
+editors. How could they be happy running
+
+00:40:05.600 --> 00:40:07.440
+that? I mean, I'm sure it's fine,
+
+00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:09.800
+but it sure as hell isn't Emacs.
+
+00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:12.340
+So don't we owe it to the world and to them
+
+00:40:12.340 --> 00:40:14.440
+and to ourselves to make a great Emacs.
+
+00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:16.120
+That will be my ending words.
+
+00:40:16.120 --> 00:40:18.020
+And I hope to see you all in the Q&A.
+
+00:40:18.120 --> 00:40:22.560
+Thank you all. And thank you so much,
+
+00:40:22.560 --> 00:40:24.360
+Stefan. That was a wonderful presentation.
+
+00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:27.280
+And I just want to give you the opportunity.
+
+00:40:27.340 --> 00:40:29.940
+You said that you perhaps had,
+
+00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:31.400
+Not the practical stuff,
+
+00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:33.280
+but you wanted to do a demo or something like
+
+00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:34.780
+this? What did you mention exactly?
+
+00:40:36.180 --> 00:40:38.460
+Yeah, we didn't have time really.
+
+00:40:38.740 --> 00:40:42.040
+Yes, I'm not sure. I didn't prepare anything
+
+00:40:42.040 --> 00:40:43.580
+so that we can do it live.
+
+00:40:43.620 --> 00:40:44.800
+But maybe for next time,
+
+00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:48.620
+I will do a demo. Don't hold me to it.
+
+00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:51.100
+Or someone else could.
+
+00:40:51.100 --> 00:40:52.540
+That would be really amazing.
+
+00:40:53.260 --> 00:40:54.020
+Right. Well, thank you,
+
+00:40:54.020 --> 00:40:56.820
+Stéphane. You've been already into so much
+
+00:40:56.820 --> 00:41:00.560
+detail of so many... So much of the intricacy
+
+00:41:01.780 --> 00:41:05.100
+of the maintenance. And as someone who's been
+
+00:41:05.460 --> 00:41:07.980
+95% of the time developing for Melpa,
+
+00:41:08.260 --> 00:41:11.040
+I feel like this talk was very geared to a
+
+00:41:11.040 --> 00:41:13.980
+lot of us who tend to experiment in this
+
+00:41:13.980 --> 00:41:16.400
+Cambrian stage of Emacs evolution,
+
+00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:19.620
+where we get to deploy a lot of creativity
+
+00:41:20.600 --> 00:41:24.020
+whilst also feeling pretty agile in a way we
+
+00:41:24.020 --> 00:41:25.580
+come up with solutions to problems.
+
+00:41:25.640 --> 00:41:29.240
+But you've won me over with your discussion
+
+00:41:29.240 --> 00:41:31.360
+about potentially moving some of this stuff
+
+00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:33.220
+to core. And I think this particularly
+
+00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:36.140
+resonated at the end with this tension that
+
+00:41:36.140 --> 00:41:38.660
+you feel about problems that you encounter.
+
+00:41:39.160 --> 00:41:40.760
+Do you fix them in Melpa?
+
+00:41:40.760 --> 00:41:42.040
+Do you fix them in core?
+
+00:41:42.040 --> 00:41:43.780
+Is it not something that is supposed to be an
+
+00:41:43.780 --> 00:41:46.560
+option? I love this tension and it's
+
+00:41:46.560 --> 00:41:48.040
+something that we've been exploring for the
+
+00:41:48.040 --> 00:41:49.780
+last 3 edition of Emacs Cons.
+
+00:41:49.780 --> 00:41:52.480
+It's really what is to be the interaction
+
+00:41:52.600 --> 00:41:55.660
+between this pool of very clever developers
+
+00:41:55.680 --> 00:41:58.100
+who are on Melpa but who are perhaps a little
+
+00:41:58.100 --> 00:42:00.880
+bit afraid of joining Core and the wonderful
+
+00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:02.860
+job that you do that, yes,
+
+00:42:02.980 --> 00:42:05.640
+seems archaic from the outside,
+
+00:42:05.860 --> 00:42:07.840
+but as you've been at length today in your
+
+00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:09.480
+presentation, is actually just a better way
+
+00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:11.780
+to work, a very pragmatic way to get a lot of
+
+00:42:11.780 --> 00:42:13.320
+work done. So, thank you so much for your
+
+00:42:13.320 --> 00:42:15.240
+presentation. Thank you,
+
+00:42:15.240 --> 00:42:20.740
+Leo. So, we have about 12 minutes now to go
+
+00:42:20.740 --> 00:42:22.950
+through as many questions as possible.
+
+00:42:22.950 --> 00:42:26.000
+You have obviously had a lot of questions
+
+00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:27.180
+throughout your presentation.
+
+00:42:27.660 --> 00:42:28.940
+Do you have access to the pad,
+
+00:42:28.940 --> 00:42:30.400
+or do you want me to share the question and
+
+00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:32.660
+feed them to you? Yes,
+
+00:42:32.660 --> 00:42:34.200
+could you start with sharing them?
+
+00:42:34.200 --> 00:42:36.000
+I'll see if I can get it on my screen.
+
+00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:39.640
+Sure, I'll do that. Please let me know if my
+
+00:42:39.720 --> 00:42:42.980
+microphone is clipping because my OBS setup
+
+00:42:42.980 --> 00:42:44.440
+sometimes is a little bit janky.
+
+00:42:44.440 --> 00:42:46.080
+But I'm going to try to read the questions
+
+00:42:46.080 --> 00:42:47.780
+for now. It's tipping,
+
+00:42:48.080 --> 00:42:51.980
+I can hear you okay. Okay,
+
+00:42:51.980 --> 00:42:54.400
+so bear with the clicking,
+
+00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:56.480
+we'll switch as soon as possible to Stefan
+
+00:42:56.480 --> 00:42:58.080
+reading the question, but I'll read the first
+
+00:42:58.080 --> 00:43:02.820
+1. Can you tell us some about your,
+
+00:43:02.860 --> 00:43:04.340
+can you tell us some more I assume,
+
+00:43:04.340 --> 00:43:06.160
+about your background with Emacs development
+
+00:43:06.160 --> 00:43:07.500
+and programming in general,
+
+00:43:07.580 --> 00:43:09.220
+your professional work possibly?
+
+00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:15.440
+Yeah, sure. Okay, I studied computer science
+
+00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:19.960
+at university. I started programming on a
+
+00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:23.960
+Commodore 64. I started with BASIC and then I
+
+00:43:23.960 --> 00:43:26.880
+did a couple of versions of BASIC as a kid.
+
+00:43:27.380 --> 00:43:31.540
+But then really things took off when I
+
+00:43:31.540 --> 00:43:34.240
+started using GNU Linux.
+
+00:43:34.300 --> 00:43:35.580
+I can't remember which year,
+
+00:43:35.580 --> 00:43:37.440
+maybe it was early 2000,
+
+00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:39.740
+something like that, late.
+
+00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:42.080
+No, it must've been before that actually,
+
+00:43:42.380 --> 00:43:44.120
+because I remember I was 14.
+
+00:43:44.340 --> 00:43:46.020
+Yeah, okay, so let's say 1999,
+
+00:43:46.500 --> 00:43:48.720
+1998, somewhere there around.
+
+00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:50.200
+Then I started with Perl,
+
+00:43:50.200 --> 00:43:52.620
+and I did Perl for a good long while.
+
+00:43:52.700 --> 00:43:55.460
+I learned C++, I learned C,
+
+00:43:55.680 --> 00:43:56.960
+I did all kinds of stuff,
+
+00:43:56.960 --> 00:43:58.640
+and then I went to university,
+
+00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:01.700
+computer science, and I've been working,
+
+00:44:01.700 --> 00:44:03.980
+you know, in various roles.
+
+00:44:04.160 --> 00:44:06.300
+Right now, I'm coding Python.
+
+00:44:06.980 --> 00:44:09.640
+Up until last Friday, I was writing firmware
+
+00:44:09.940 --> 00:44:12.319
+in C for a small microcontroller,
+
+00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:15.600
+which is pretty different than writing
+
+00:44:15.600 --> 00:44:17.060
+Python, that's for sure.
+
+00:44:17.220 --> 00:44:19.600
+So yeah, so that's a little bit about me.
+
+00:44:19.600 --> 00:44:21.860
+I got interested in free software,
+
+00:44:22.300 --> 00:44:24.720
+you know, also at a very young age.
+
+00:44:24.720 --> 00:44:26.320
+So, I mean, I've been following these,
+
+00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:29.120
+you know, ideological discussions and
+
+00:44:29.120 --> 00:44:31.560
+debates, read all this stuff by Richard
+
+00:44:31.560 --> 00:44:33.940
+Stallman and so on and so forth.
+
+00:44:33.940 --> 00:44:37.760
+But yeah, that's it. Great,
+
+00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:41.120
+thank you. I'll move on to the next question.
+
+00:44:41.120 --> 00:44:42.980
+You'll have to listen to me because if I
+
+00:44:42.980 --> 00:44:45.020
+start sharing my screen again,
+
+00:44:45.020 --> 00:44:46.320
+we're going to get some clicks.
+
+00:44:48.140 --> 00:44:50.680
+So the question. Do you think that 1 day
+
+00:44:50.680 --> 00:44:53.930
+there will be a native I'll start again,
+
+00:44:53.930 --> 00:44:54.079
+sorry. Do you think that 1 day there will be
+
+00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:54.440
+a native... I'll start again,
+
+00:44:54.440 --> 00:44:56.480
+sorry. Do you think that 1 day there will be
+
+00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:59.020
+a native graphical web browser in Emacs or is
+
+00:44:59.020 --> 00:45:00.540
+it kind of against its philosophy and
+
+00:45:00.540 --> 00:45:03.820
+architecture? So will we stick just with EWW
+
+00:45:04.200 --> 00:45:06.800
+and EAF or similar workaround tricks?
+
+00:45:08.640 --> 00:45:11.200
+So if, I don't know if people have seen,
+
+00:45:11.200 --> 00:45:12.740
+there is a talk by, I think,
+
+00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:15.080
+Perry Metzger, is that the name?
+
+00:45:15.080 --> 00:45:16.800
+Sorry if I got the name wrong.
+
+00:45:17.080 --> 00:45:18.360
+Perry Metzger, I think.
+
+00:45:18.720 --> 00:45:20.800
+It's like, he marks a text editor for the
+
+00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:22.640
+next 40 years. He makes an excellent point
+
+00:45:22.640 --> 00:45:24.720
+there that 1 of the things that we need to do
+
+00:45:24.720 --> 00:45:27.840
+is really get a proper HTML rendering in
+
+00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:30.260
+Emacs. It's like a dream at this point.
+
+00:45:30.260 --> 00:45:32.200
+No 1 is actively working on something like
+
+00:45:32.200 --> 00:45:34.240
+that. I think that, you know,
+
+00:45:34.240 --> 00:45:36.380
+there, first of all, you'd need to rewrite
+
+00:45:36.380 --> 00:45:39.520
+the display engine. So that's a big job.
+
+00:45:39.920 --> 00:45:41.140
+It is. I'm not saying,
+
+00:45:41.140 --> 00:45:42.540
+you know, it can't be done,
+
+00:45:43.040 --> 00:45:44.660
+but you need to start there.
+
+00:45:44.660 --> 00:45:47.560
+Right? Second of all, you need to think
+
+00:45:47.560 --> 00:45:50.460
+about, you know, with all the Emacs Lisp code
+
+00:45:50.460 --> 00:45:52.090
+out there, is really assuming,
+
+00:45:52.090 --> 00:45:54.960
+you know, 1 paradigm, which is that you have
+
+00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:57.720
+a square, and basically you have columns and
+
+00:45:57.720 --> 00:45:59.760
+you have rows, and everything is in there,
+
+00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:02.360
+even images, is basically in a column,
+
+00:46:02.540 --> 00:46:04.740
+you know, in a column on a row somewhere.
+
+00:46:05.380 --> 00:46:07.360
+Whereas, you know, when you just start doing
+
+00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:09.780
+the more web stuff and web rendering,
+
+00:46:10.120 --> 00:46:12.020
+you already have like a seaplane.
+
+00:46:12.040 --> 00:46:14.500
+You have different types of geometries that
+
+00:46:14.500 --> 00:46:16.880
+are possible. And what does it mean to go to
+
+00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:19.370
+the logical next line in that kind of sense?
+
+00:46:19.370 --> 00:46:21.420
+I mean these types of things I'm not saying
+
+00:46:21.420 --> 00:46:23.440
+it can't be done. I'm saying there are there
+
+00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:27.440
+are definitely some challenges there It would
+
+00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:30.280
+be amazing I mean, but we need someone with
+
+00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:33.020
+you know, the inclination and talent I think
+
+00:46:33.320 --> 00:46:37.680
+to work on that's a job posting if I've ever
+
+00:46:37.680 --> 00:46:40.200
+had 1. So good luck to whoever's willing to
+
+00:46:40.200 --> 00:46:42.100
+apply for this 1. I think it's a tough 1.
+
+00:46:43.180 --> 00:46:46.440
+It is, yes. Go on. Okay,
+
+00:46:46.560 --> 00:46:48.040
+do you happen to have the questions in front
+
+00:46:48.040 --> 00:46:50.320
+of you? Can I just read them to you so that
+
+00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:52.660
+you can also have a feedback in front of you?
+
+00:46:54.780 --> 00:46:56.680
+Yes, I have the pad here.
+
+00:46:57.260 --> 00:46:58.860
+Okay, cool. So I'll read the next question
+
+00:46:58.860 --> 00:47:00.260
+and this way I don't have to worry too much
+
+00:47:00.260 --> 00:47:02.320
+about me butchering every word in the
+
+00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:04.540
+sentence. So, Emacs development and
+
+00:47:04.540 --> 00:47:06.460
+communication still is very much focused on
+
+00:47:06.460 --> 00:47:08.640
+email mailing lists. I like this,
+
+00:47:08.640 --> 00:47:10.380
+but what do you think about introducing other
+
+00:47:10.380 --> 00:47:12.320
+channels for talking to users,
+
+00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:15.140
+like the Emacs project community could set up
+
+00:47:15.140 --> 00:47:17.120
+a master on instance of its own,
+
+00:47:17.120 --> 00:47:20.280
+for instance? I think from the point of view
+
+00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:21.760
+of the Emacs core team,
+
+00:47:21.760 --> 00:47:23.860
+we don't really have a lot of resources or
+
+00:47:23.860 --> 00:47:25.960
+people inclined to be working on stuff like
+
+00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:27.880
+that. But I mean, there is so much going on.
+
+00:47:27.880 --> 00:47:29.360
+Emacs is a very, you know,
+
+00:47:30.420 --> 00:47:32.580
+It's a big community, frankly,
+
+00:47:32.580 --> 00:47:34.500
+right? So people working on emacs.com,
+
+00:47:34.760 --> 00:47:37.400
+there are people in the IRC channel,
+
+00:47:37.500 --> 00:47:39.200
+the emacs IRC channel,
+
+00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:40.820
+there's the emacs subreddit.
+
+00:47:40.960 --> 00:47:43.280
+And I mean, people are doing an incredible
+
+00:47:43.380 --> 00:47:45.480
+job. And I think if people wanna do more
+
+00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:46.400
+stuff like that, I mean,
+
+00:47:46.400 --> 00:47:48.840
+Don't wait for Argo, just go for it.
+
+00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:54.340
+Great. Moving on to the next question.
+
+00:47:54.340 --> 00:47:56.520
+Sorry, I'm not commenting anymore because we
+
+00:47:56.520 --> 00:47:58.180
+have so many questions and I'd love for you
+
+00:47:58.180 --> 00:48:00.260
+to answer as many people as possible because
+
+00:48:00.260 --> 00:48:02.540
+we have about 6 minutes technically,
+
+00:48:02.640 --> 00:48:04.820
+but we can go perhaps a little bit over.
+
+00:48:05.080 --> 00:48:06.220
+If you have the time, Stefan,
+
+00:48:06.220 --> 00:48:08.680
+though. Yeah. Okay, great.
+
+00:48:09.340 --> 00:48:11.140
+What are some features or packages you'd like
+
+00:48:11.140 --> 00:48:12.540
+to see developed by the community?
+
+00:48:12.560 --> 00:48:15.560
+We've already talked about the native HTTP
+
+00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:17.620
+display, but do you have any others?
+
+00:48:19.540 --> 00:48:22.080
+So, I mean, developed by the community,
+
+00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:23.240
+it depends what you mean.
+
+00:48:23.240 --> 00:48:27.720
+So do you mean sending stuff that people
+
+00:48:27.720 --> 00:48:29.720
+could be working on in general?
+
+00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:33.320
+I think for now, like let's say the roadmap,
+
+00:48:33.420 --> 00:48:35.140
+I'll just give some of the things that I
+
+00:48:35.140 --> 00:48:36.940
+think should happen right now and that I
+
+00:48:36.940 --> 00:48:39.060
+would love for people to send patches for.
+
+00:48:39.060 --> 00:48:41.120
+That's what I'm gonna be answering because
+
+00:48:41.120 --> 00:48:42.860
+that's what I think I can answer.
+
+00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:45.220
+Tree-sitter is a new thing,
+
+00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:48.620
+right? Improving and working on new modes
+
+00:48:48.860 --> 00:48:50.040
+for, you know, TreeSitter,
+
+00:48:50.200 --> 00:48:52.860
+it's not very hard. I think many people get
+
+00:48:52.900 --> 00:48:55.560
+into it and make sure to integrate them in
+
+00:48:55.560 --> 00:48:57.540
+Emacs core. I think that would be,
+
+00:48:58.140 --> 00:49:00.140
+I mean, on my wishlist.
+
+00:49:00.140 --> 00:49:01.960
+The other thing that is that we've asked for
+
+00:49:01.960 --> 00:49:03.740
+someone perhaps with a little bit more
+
+00:49:03.740 --> 00:49:05.940
+experience, I think, but working on
+
+00:49:05.940 --> 00:49:09.080
+refactoring capabilities in Emacs and a more
+
+00:49:09.080 --> 00:49:11.320
+general framework, I think,
+
+00:49:11.320 --> 00:49:13.680
+for that. There are probably many more ideas
+
+00:49:13.780 --> 00:49:15.300
+that I could give people,
+
+00:49:15.300 --> 00:49:17.720
+but those would be the 2 big ones,
+
+00:49:17.720 --> 00:49:20.140
+I think, that are also very uncontroversial.
+
+00:49:22.360 --> 00:49:23.960
+It's funny because for me,
+
+00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:26.760
+I don't think refactoring would count as a
+
+00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:29.760
+feature, but it's so vital to allowing
+
+00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:31.780
+further features to be developed.
+
+00:49:31.780 --> 00:49:34.160
+Otherwise, I remember the way Org Mode used
+
+00:49:34.160 --> 00:49:36.300
+to be before we had Org Element and stuff
+
+00:49:36.300 --> 00:49:38.940
+like this. It was really complicated to write
+
+00:49:38.940 --> 00:49:41.200
+any kind of parsing stuff for it.
+
+00:49:41.200 --> 00:49:42.340
+And now that we've got it,
+
+00:49:42.340 --> 00:49:44.080
+it just opened up a world of possibility
+
+00:49:44.180 --> 00:49:46.160
+where parsing an Org Mode file is just made
+
+00:49:46.160 --> 00:49:48.280
+so much easier. So I think that's a wonderful
+
+00:49:48.280 --> 00:49:49.620
+answer because it goes,
+
+00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:52.080
+it's multi-layered as you would expect from
+
+00:49:52.080 --> 00:49:53.920
+something that concerns the whole of Emacs.
+
+00:49:55.800 --> 00:49:57.160
+Moving on to the next question.
+
+00:49:57.440 --> 00:49:59.960
+What is the hardest decision being made
+
+00:49:59.960 --> 00:50:02.480
+within Emacs dev for the last 3 years.
+
+00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:04.960
+I'm not sure, is it the decision in the last
+
+00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:07.480
+3 years or I'll let you interpret the
+
+00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:08.760
+question however you want.
+
+00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:10.960
+Okay, well, I'll say this.
+
+00:50:11.640 --> 00:50:14.220
+I started in August and I haven't had any
+
+00:50:14.220 --> 00:50:16.920
+really hard decisions so far.
+
+00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:20.540
+So good news. Maybe Eli will have more for
+
+00:50:20.540 --> 00:50:22.820
+the last 3 years. Keep it simple.
+
+00:50:25.240 --> 00:50:28.660
+Thanks. Cool. Next question.
+
+00:50:28.860 --> 00:50:31.920
+Any plans to integrate XWM into core?
+
+00:50:31.940 --> 00:50:34.400
+Emacs is a really good Winters manager.
+
+00:50:34.780 --> 00:50:38.080
+That's super cool. I think EXWM is cool.
+
+00:50:38.100 --> 00:50:40.140
+I think they need to upgrade to Wayland
+
+00:50:40.260 --> 00:50:41.880
+somehow and that's not clear yet,
+
+00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:44.880
+but you know, we don't have any current plans
+
+00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:48.900
+to integrate it, no. Right,
+
+00:50:49.020 --> 00:50:51.600
+Next question. Do you think it is a good idea
+
+00:50:51.600 --> 00:50:53.540
+to choose Org Mode for writing documentation
+
+00:50:53.680 --> 00:50:57.740
+instead of tech info? I think that whatever
+
+00:50:57.740 --> 00:50:59.680
+we do, it should be the people that are
+
+00:50:59.680 --> 00:51:01.760
+working on the documentation that should make
+
+00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:03.420
+that choice. Currently we have,
+
+00:51:03.420 --> 00:51:05.920
+I think, Modus themes and Org Mode itself is
+
+00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:08.060
+writing their documentation in Org Mode,
+
+00:51:08.080 --> 00:51:10.940
+that's fine by me. It has some drawbacks,
+
+00:51:10.960 --> 00:51:13.440
+it has some benefits, but most documentation
+
+00:51:13.580 --> 00:51:14.840
+is still in tech info.
+
+00:51:15.240 --> 00:51:17.360
+Maybe we'd need to replace that at some
+
+00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:19.840
+point, I don't know. But for now,
+
+00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:22.280
+that's what people know and use.
+
+00:51:22.280 --> 00:51:24.280
+And if you find that as a barrier to
+
+00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:25.600
+contribute to Emacs, I mean,
+
+00:51:25.600 --> 00:51:27.420
+just really write it as plain text.
+
+00:51:27.540 --> 00:51:29.380
+We'll be happy to help you with the markup.
+
+00:51:29.380 --> 00:51:30.280
+It's a little bit, you know,
+
+00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:31.760
+finicky and stuff like that.
+
+00:51:33.340 --> 00:51:35.060
+Great. Thanks for that.
+
+00:51:35.620 --> 00:51:38.000
+Next question. What do you plan to work on in
+
+00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:39.360
+Emacs Core in the future?
+
+00:51:40.460 --> 00:51:42.660
+I'm a little bit hesitant to reply to that.
+
+00:51:42.660 --> 00:51:43.740
+Of course I have ideas.
+
+00:51:43.740 --> 00:51:45.760
+Of course there are projects that I'm working
+
+00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:47.640
+on. However, if I say it here,
+
+00:51:47.640 --> 00:51:48.480
+I feel like, you know,
+
+00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:51.240
+then you'll hold me to it later and come ask,
+
+00:51:51.300 --> 00:51:52.480
+where is that feature?
+
+00:51:52.640 --> 00:51:55.180
+So I'll just say there is plenty of stuff
+
+00:51:55.180 --> 00:51:57.340
+that I'm working on, and if you want to know
+
+00:51:57.340 --> 00:51:58.780
+some of the stuff that I have been working
+
+00:51:58.780 --> 00:52:00.040
+on, check the Git log.
+
+00:52:00.060 --> 00:52:02.400
+I think that's just really as much as I want
+
+00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:05.040
+to say about that right now.
+
+00:52:05.660 --> 00:52:07.360
+You've added folks to just look at the path
+
+00:52:07.360 --> 00:52:09.620
+with the changelog and that's all you need.
+
+00:52:11.600 --> 00:52:13.340
+All right, moving on to the next question.
+
+00:52:14.020 --> 00:52:16.120
+What do you use Emacs for in your life other
+
+00:52:16.120 --> 00:52:17.580
+than working on Emacs itself?
+
+00:52:18.080 --> 00:52:21.060
+Oh shit. So the big thing is programming,
+
+00:52:21.140 --> 00:52:24.020
+right? Now I work as a programmer.
+
+00:52:27.040 --> 00:52:29.280
+But in general, I use org mode heavily.
+
+00:52:29.340 --> 00:52:30.780
+I use it for all my writing.
+
+00:52:30.820 --> 00:52:33.460
+I use it to write, prepare this talk.
+
+00:52:33.480 --> 00:52:35.360
+I use it as a productivity system.
+
+00:52:35.380 --> 00:52:41.980
+I use it for emails. I use it as an RSS
+
+00:52:41.980 --> 00:52:44.480
+reader. I do most of my computing.
+
+00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:47.040
+I also have Firefox. So it's like Emacs and
+
+00:52:47.040 --> 00:52:48.820
+Firefox for some reason.
+
+00:52:48.900 --> 00:52:51.900
+I do read documentation in Emacs as well in
+
+00:52:51.900 --> 00:52:58.440
+you, but yeah. Great. I'm still,
+
+00:52:59.180 --> 00:53:00.720
+I do very much the same thing with you.
+
+00:53:00.720 --> 00:53:02.040
+Like You've described exactly what I do.
+
+00:53:02.040 --> 00:53:02.960
+I work as a programmer,
+
+00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:04.640
+I use Augment for a lot of stuff,
+
+00:53:04.640 --> 00:53:06.340
+and I think that describes a whole lot of
+
+00:53:06.340 --> 00:53:08.100
+people currently watching the stream.
+
+00:53:09.380 --> 00:53:10.680
+Moving on to the next question.
+
+00:53:10.840 --> 00:53:12.740
+What could we do in order to make Emacs more
+
+00:53:12.740 --> 00:53:14.280
+attractive for younger users?
+
+00:53:14.820 --> 00:53:17.940
+This is an amazing question and I feel wholly
+
+00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:20.720
+unprepared to answer this.
+
+00:53:21.180 --> 00:53:24.180
+Probably more introductory material aimed at
+
+00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:26.580
+that age group. What do you mean by younger
+
+00:53:26.580 --> 00:53:28.740
+users? You know what would be really cool if
+
+00:53:28.740 --> 00:53:30.740
+you had an Emacs for kids project?
+
+00:53:31.020 --> 00:53:32.060
+That would be amazing.
+
+00:53:32.680 --> 00:53:34.920
+I'm not sure if that's what people are
+
+00:53:34.920 --> 00:53:36.880
+thinking about, but yeah,
+
+00:53:37.200 --> 00:53:39.780
+that's about what I can say for now.
+
+00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:43.320
+Good question. It is a very good question,
+
+00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:45.880
+like it comes back always to a key topic in
+
+00:53:45.880 --> 00:53:47.720
+EmacsConf, which is, how do we get more
+
+00:53:47.720 --> 00:53:49.360
+people to join us? Because it's a wonderful
+
+00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:51.760
+community. And how do we onboard people who
+
+00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:54.220
+are not programmers or people who are younger
+
+00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:56.720
+than the average Joe coming in those
+
+00:53:57.120 --> 00:54:01.560
+meetings? There's this Excellent article by
+
+00:54:01.560 --> 00:54:05.960
+Paul Graham, I think, where he was describing
+
+00:54:06.140 --> 00:54:09.140
+how they used Emacs as the sort of customer
+
+00:54:09.320 --> 00:54:11.520
+service system. They built the customer
+
+00:54:11.520 --> 00:54:13.940
+service system for the early days of Amazon
+
+00:54:14.700 --> 00:54:17.200
+in Emacs Lisp. And then they switched and all
+
+00:54:17.200 --> 00:54:18.680
+the employees were sad.
+
+00:54:18.680 --> 00:54:21.680
+So definitely there's more stuff that could
+
+00:54:21.680 --> 00:54:25.160
+be done in Emacs and be done better in Emacs.
+
+00:54:25.240 --> 00:54:27.440
+So for sure, if people want to explore more
+
+00:54:27.440 --> 00:54:28.880
+stuff like that, that's amazing.
+
+00:54:29.720 --> 00:54:32.040
+Yeah. And for people who weren't around
+
+00:54:32.040 --> 00:54:33.740
+earlier today, we've had a presentation about
+
+00:54:33.740 --> 00:54:36.820
+how to get computer science students to use
+
+00:54:36.860 --> 00:54:41.100
+Emacs and trying to provide as much
+
+00:54:41.100 --> 00:54:43.500
+information and as much tutorial as needed
+
+00:54:43.500 --> 00:54:45.480
+for them to understand what is the philosophy
+
+00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:48.420
+behind Emacs and how it influences the way
+
+00:54:48.420 --> 00:54:49.540
+you work and so forth.
+
+00:54:49.540 --> 00:54:51.420
+So you might want to revisit this discussion.
+
+00:54:51.420 --> 00:54:53.400
+And we also have plenty of talks talking
+
+00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:57.720
+about this issue. And I can just add that I
+
+00:54:57.720 --> 00:55:00.320
+think it's very important for us as a
+
+00:55:00.320 --> 00:55:03.120
+community to just be enthusiastic to get more
+
+00:55:03.120 --> 00:55:04.640
+people involved. Because I mean,
+
+00:55:04.640 --> 00:55:06.660
+look, there's this meme where it's like,
+
+00:55:06.660 --> 00:55:08.620
+I use Arch Linux, by the way,
+
+00:55:08.620 --> 00:55:10.020
+I use Arch, by the way.
+
+00:55:10.080 --> 00:55:12.380
+And for some reason, people using Arch keep
+
+00:55:12.380 --> 00:55:14.080
+telling you that they're using Arch.
+
+00:55:14.600 --> 00:55:16.160
+That's fine. Use whatever you want.
+
+00:55:16.160 --> 00:55:18.260
+It's free software, I don't care.
+
+00:55:20.140 --> 00:55:21.900
+I think if you look at Vim users,
+
+00:55:21.900 --> 00:55:23.440
+they're very almost militant,
+
+00:55:23.540 --> 00:55:25.780
+oh, we're Vim, and Vim is the thing.
+
+00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:27.480
+And Emacs users sometimes,
+
+00:55:27.700 --> 00:55:29.960
+and it's fine. We take a bit of a more
+
+00:55:29.960 --> 00:55:31.160
+laid-back approach. We're like,
+
+00:55:31.160 --> 00:55:32.720
+yeah, I use Emacs, you use Vim,
+
+00:55:32.720 --> 00:55:35.320
+whatever. And that's fine.
+
+00:55:35.320 --> 00:55:36.820
+I mean, that's the correct approach,
+
+00:55:36.820 --> 00:55:38.480
+I think. You should respect what people want
+
+00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:40.840
+to use. I don't care that people use VS Code
+
+00:55:40.840 --> 00:55:42.540
+or whatever. I'm not going to use that
+
+00:55:42.540 --> 00:55:43.940
+because it's too limiting.
+
+00:55:43.940 --> 00:55:45.780
+It's not really a workable environment.
+
+00:55:46.400 --> 00:55:48.620
+But I think it's OK to be enthusiastic.
+
+00:55:48.740 --> 00:55:51.360
+I think it's okay to talk about that type of
+
+00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:54.100
+enthusiasm and anything that can help
+
+00:55:54.400 --> 00:55:56.880
+increase the enthusiasm around Emacs can only
+
+00:55:56.880 --> 00:56:01.100
+help the longevity of Emacs.
+
+00:56:02.520 --> 00:56:04.280
+I agree and that's also 1 of the key
+
+00:56:04.280 --> 00:56:05.340
+objectives of EmacsConf.
+
+00:56:05.460 --> 00:56:07.660
+It's about bringing a lot of amazing people
+
+00:56:07.660 --> 00:56:09.100
+to come talk, like you,
+
+00:56:09.140 --> 00:56:11.400
+about stuff that is very dear to you.
+
+00:56:11.400 --> 00:56:14.180
+And it's very tangible how much you care,
+
+00:56:14.180 --> 00:56:15.920
+all of you, about what you're presenting.
+
+00:56:15.920 --> 00:56:18.560
+And it's amazing to put all of you people on
+
+00:56:18.560 --> 00:56:20.800
+just 48 hours talking about all of this and
+
+00:56:20.800 --> 00:56:22.920
+then creating so much content for people to
+
+00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:24.480
+watch. And I think it's really helping the
+
+00:56:24.480 --> 00:56:28.140
+enthusiasm to live on and to gather a little
+
+00:56:28.140 --> 00:56:29.660
+more snow as it comes down.
+
+00:56:29.920 --> 00:56:31.720
+Yeah, I watch you Max Conf every year.
+
+00:56:31.720 --> 00:56:33.460
+I think it's a lot of fun.
+
+00:56:34.300 --> 00:56:37.360
+Thank you. I'll take the compliment for
+
+00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:38.620
+everyone else in the team.
+
+00:56:39.620 --> 00:56:41.120
+We're going to go a little bit longer with
+
+00:56:41.120 --> 00:56:42.800
+the Q&A because we still have a lot of
+
+00:56:42.800 --> 00:56:44.480
+questions and if Stéphane is still willing to
+
+00:56:44.480 --> 00:56:48.160
+answer, I'm still willing to not go too bad
+
+00:56:48.160 --> 00:56:49.740
+to hear a lot more of it.
+
+00:56:49.740 --> 00:56:50.580
+Yeah, for me it's fine.
+
+00:56:50.580 --> 00:56:55.760
+I have time. Great. So I think I've done this
+
+00:56:55.760 --> 00:56:57.460
+question. So, all right.
+
+00:56:58.080 --> 00:57:00.060
+How are we going to make sure that a cool
+
+00:57:00.060 --> 00:57:01.960
+idea is going to pass it through for the next
+
+00:57:01.960 --> 00:57:04.100
+generation, let's say 20 years later,
+
+00:57:04.120 --> 00:57:05.860
+the generation still have the good knowledge
+
+00:57:05.860 --> 00:57:09.940
+we have today. Yeah, so I mean,
+
+00:57:09.940 --> 00:57:12.840
+if you think about what does EMAX need to
+
+00:57:12.840 --> 00:57:15.180
+have staying power, so in general,
+
+00:57:15.180 --> 00:57:17.020
+they say, you know, if if when you start a
+
+00:57:17.020 --> 00:57:19.340
+company, if you have a company for 1 year,
+
+00:57:19.340 --> 00:57:20.220
+then in all likelihood,
+
+00:57:20.220 --> 00:57:21.820
+you're going to have it for 2 years because,
+
+00:57:21.820 --> 00:57:23.680
+you know, it's just so if you've had Emacs
+
+00:57:23.680 --> 00:57:25.840
+for 4 years, I'm saying that we're going to
+
+00:57:25.840 --> 00:57:27.980
+have Emacs for the next 4 years as well.
+
+00:57:27.980 --> 00:57:30.540
+Just based on that, I'm not sure the logic
+
+00:57:30.540 --> 00:57:32.200
+holds up, but you know,
+
+00:57:32.440 --> 00:57:34.320
+how does Emacs stay relevant?
+
+00:57:34.340 --> 00:57:35.500
+I think is the question.
+
+00:57:35.500 --> 00:57:38.400
+Well, I think we need to continue working on
+
+00:57:38.520 --> 00:57:41.840
+all the types of exploratory work that people
+
+00:57:41.840 --> 00:57:43.820
+are doing in the community.
+
+00:57:43.820 --> 00:57:45.720
+I think there is fundamental stuff that needs
+
+00:57:45.720 --> 00:57:47.720
+to be done. I mean, if people want to work
+
+00:57:47.720 --> 00:57:49.400
+on, you know, web rendering and Emacs,
+
+00:57:49.400 --> 00:57:50.240
+maybe that's the next,
+
+00:57:50.240 --> 00:57:53.240
+you know, revolutionary step that we need
+
+00:57:53.240 --> 00:57:55.320
+that could, you know, really showcase what
+
+00:57:55.320 --> 00:57:57.640
+Emacs, you know, as, you know,
+
+00:57:57.640 --> 00:58:00.620
+an idea, even if not Emacs as a software
+
+00:58:00.620 --> 00:58:01.960
+could be and, you know,
+
+00:58:01.960 --> 00:58:05.000
+Because there is huge potential in the idea
+
+00:58:05.000 --> 00:58:07.100
+as such. So maybe that's something.
+
+00:58:07.960 --> 00:58:09.600
+But I mean, from the point of view of core
+
+00:58:09.600 --> 00:58:11.840
+development, I think we need to just continue
+
+00:58:11.840 --> 00:58:15.040
+working on the fundamental technologies.
+
+00:58:15.260 --> 00:58:17.980
+1 thing that I would like to eventually see
+
+00:58:17.980 --> 00:58:19.700
+is a better garbage collector.
+
+00:58:19.900 --> 00:58:22.280
+We've talked about that for a long time,
+
+00:58:22.280 --> 00:58:25.140
+but I mean, we need someone to do the job
+
+00:58:25.380 --> 00:58:27.980
+really. It's not very easy.
+
+00:58:27.980 --> 00:58:29.780
+It's very hard, actually.
+
+00:58:31.100 --> 00:58:34.000
+So just continues working on stuff like that,
+
+00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:35.180
+continue with the exploration,
+
+00:58:35.800 --> 00:58:40.260
+continue using and being excited about Emacs.
+
+00:58:40.260 --> 00:58:43.180
+I think that's the best guarantee that we
+
+00:58:43.180 --> 00:58:45.800
+have. Yeah, and perhaps to echo something
+
+00:58:45.800 --> 00:58:46.780
+that you said earlier,
+
+00:58:46.840 --> 00:58:47.960
+the tools that you're using,
+
+00:58:47.960 --> 00:58:49.920
+like the emails, they've been around forever,
+
+00:58:49.920 --> 00:58:51.100
+they will be around forever.
+
+00:58:51.500 --> 00:58:53.480
+This pragmatic stance on the tools that
+
+00:58:53.480 --> 00:58:56.240
+you're using, they might look stayed from the
+
+00:58:56.240 --> 00:58:58.880
+outside, but ultimately they are what permits
+
+00:58:59.220 --> 00:59:02.280
+a sense of longevity to any kind of project
+
+00:59:03.300 --> 00:59:05.460
+you embark upon. Also,
+
+00:59:05.460 --> 00:59:07.260
+in a sense, I think that the expectations
+
+00:59:07.740 --> 00:59:09.320
+might be changing in the sense that,
+
+00:59:09.320 --> 00:59:12.820
+you know, when I started using GNU Linux,
+
+00:59:12.980 --> 00:59:15.060
+you know what the first thing I did was,
+
+00:59:15.060 --> 00:59:16.960
+because I couldn't get Xorg to run.
+
+00:59:16.960 --> 00:59:19.040
+So the first thing you had to do was you had
+
+00:59:19.040 --> 00:59:20.820
+to compile your own Linux kernel.
+
+00:59:20.820 --> 00:59:22.960
+So you sit there and make manuconfig and
+
+00:59:22.960 --> 00:59:24.880
+you'll like, try to read it and you've never
+
+00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:26.320
+done anything like this before.
+
+00:59:26.320 --> 00:59:27.800
+You know, I was just a kid.
+
+00:59:27.800 --> 00:59:29.540
+I had never been at this kind of,
+
+00:59:29.540 --> 00:59:31.560
+you know, whatever. So I had to start with
+
+00:59:31.560 --> 00:59:34.200
+that. And then you have to write the X or
+
+00:59:34.200 --> 00:59:36.100
+configuration file. And I had the patience
+
+00:59:36.100 --> 00:59:37.100
+for that. But nowadays,
+
+00:59:37.200 --> 00:59:38.600
+people have different expectations.
+
+00:59:38.740 --> 00:59:40.460
+You just install something,
+
+00:59:40.640 --> 00:59:42.720
+and it works. And we need to keep that in
+
+00:59:42.720 --> 00:59:45.280
+mind as well. So that's why I keep pushing as
+
+00:59:45.280 --> 00:59:48.720
+1 of my big things. We need to build a more
+
+00:59:48.740 --> 00:59:51.180
+cohesive experience out of the box.
+
+00:59:51.180 --> 00:59:52.540
+Of course, that can be customizable.
+
+00:59:52.940 --> 00:59:55.240
+You shouldn't shoehorn anything in just for
+
+00:59:55.240 --> 00:59:58.760
+the sake of it. But you could get some things
+
+00:59:58.940 --> 01:00:00.920
+a little bit more for free.
+
+01:00:01.220 --> 01:00:03.080
+And maybe some of us that have our own
+
+01:00:03.080 --> 01:00:04.780
+configs and we've been doing this for you
+
+01:00:04.780 --> 01:00:07.720
+know, 2, 05:10, even 20 years,
+
+01:00:08.480 --> 01:00:09.660
+we could also see, you know,
+
+01:00:09.660 --> 01:00:11.640
+from the point of view of a new user that
+
+01:00:11.640 --> 01:00:13.780
+just installs VS Code and then they click,
+
+01:00:13.780 --> 01:00:15.680
+yes I use Python, yes I use that,
+
+01:00:15.680 --> 01:00:18.840
+and then it just automatically works.
+
+01:00:19.200 --> 01:00:20.600
+You know what I mean? I mean,
+
+01:00:20.600 --> 01:00:24.140
+then could we get closer to that perhaps a
+
+01:00:24.140 --> 01:00:26.060
+little bit? I think that would also help.
+
+01:00:26.760 --> 01:00:28.700
+Yeah, I think that's what we call the
+
+01:00:28.700 --> 01:00:30.580
+configuration wizard. And we were talking
+
+01:00:30.580 --> 01:00:32.520
+about this, I think, a couple of years ago at
+
+01:00:32.520 --> 01:00:34.200
+EmacsConf. I can't remember if it was with
+
+01:00:34.200 --> 01:00:35.740
+Adam in the chat. Adam,
+
+01:00:35.740 --> 01:00:38.240
+I mean Alpha Papa, or if it was with Bastien,
+
+01:00:38.240 --> 01:00:40.440
+but I remember the idea cropping off.
+
+01:00:40.440 --> 01:00:42.520
+Like, it's either you get a tutorial for
+
+01:00:42.520 --> 01:00:43.520
+Emacs, a proper tutorial,
+
+01:00:43.520 --> 01:00:45.640
+or you get a wizard, or you get both,
+
+01:00:45.640 --> 01:00:47.520
+and then all is right for the world.
+
+01:00:47.520 --> 01:00:49.420
+But definitely cool ideas being evoked.
+
+01:00:50.280 --> 01:00:52.280
+I'm gonna say I need to decree the time when
+
+01:00:52.280 --> 01:00:54.440
+we finish because for me it is 11.15
+
+01:00:55.080 --> 01:00:59.300
+p.m. And I think my co-organizers are also
+
+01:00:59.300 --> 01:01:01.680
+willing to end the day and go rest because
+
+01:01:01.680 --> 01:01:03.540
+we've got another day to go tomorrow.
+
+01:01:03.760 --> 01:01:06.280
+So how about we take 3 minutes and 30 seconds
+
+01:01:06.280 --> 01:01:08.300
+to try to answer a little bit more succinctly
+
+01:01:08.560 --> 01:01:09.780
+the questions we've got left.
+
+01:01:09.780 --> 01:01:10.940
+How does that sound, Stefan?
+
+01:01:11.320 --> 01:01:15.200
+Sounds great. Cool, so I'll start reading the
+
+01:01:15.200 --> 01:01:17.140
+questions then that we've got left.
+
+01:01:18.340 --> 01:01:20.840
+So this 1 we've got. If you're willing to
+
+01:01:20.840 --> 01:01:22.360
+discuss it, what do you think about the
+
+01:01:22.360 --> 01:01:24.720
+recent controversy about use of CLLib in
+
+01:01:24.720 --> 01:01:29.980
+Emacs call code? Am I willing to discuss
+
+01:01:29.980 --> 01:01:35.960
+that? I have said my opinion on Emacs,
+
+01:01:36.420 --> 01:01:40.580
+Devel, I think. And I think I understand,
+
+01:01:40.680 --> 01:01:44.820
+I think, the viewpoints of both sides in that
+
+01:01:44.820 --> 01:01:46.720
+discussion. It is true that some things,
+
+01:01:46.720 --> 01:01:49.280
+I mean, we have to think about that.
+
+01:01:49.280 --> 01:01:50.340
+There is a real problem,
+
+01:01:50.340 --> 01:01:53.520
+I think, when we have 3 different APIs for
+
+01:01:53.520 --> 01:01:55.140
+doing the same thing in Emacs.
+
+01:01:55.320 --> 01:01:57.080
+And can we make that a little bit better?
+
+01:01:57.280 --> 01:01:59.280
+I mean, perhaps we could,
+
+01:01:59.760 --> 01:02:04.040
+right? So that's about as much as I'd like to
+
+01:02:04.040 --> 01:02:06.940
+say. Fair enough. I would have also accepted
+
+01:02:06.940 --> 01:02:09.160
+that CL loops are ugly to write and they
+
+01:02:09.160 --> 01:02:10.320
+don't feel very lispy.
+
+01:02:10.320 --> 01:02:12.040
+But I'll take your answer as well.
+
+01:02:13.260 --> 01:02:15.360
+Yeah, some people think that.
+
+01:02:15.660 --> 01:02:18.400
+I understand that position as well.
+
+01:02:19.200 --> 01:02:21.220
+Right. Okay, next question.
+
+01:02:21.260 --> 01:02:23.100
+When we find a bug in our Emacs,
+
+01:02:23.100 --> 01:02:25.200
+do we need to try to replicate it on our side
+
+01:02:25.200 --> 01:02:26.780
+version, on our SID version,
+
+01:02:26.780 --> 01:02:29.340
+sorry, then update all the usual list package
+
+01:02:29.340 --> 01:02:31.480
+we use, and if we succeed to replicate the
+
+01:02:31.480 --> 01:02:33.340
+bug in this version, only then go to
+
+01:02:33.340 --> 01:02:35.420
+development version 30 and do the same.
+
+01:02:35.660 --> 01:02:37.580
+Then only ask for assistance in reporting the
+
+01:02:37.580 --> 01:02:40.260
+bug we found. So I believe when they
+
+01:02:40.260 --> 01:02:43.540
+encounter a bug, are people supposed to go to
+
+01:02:43.540 --> 01:02:47.500
+master to pull main and just to make sure
+
+01:02:47.500 --> 01:02:48.740
+that they are on the latest version.
+
+01:02:48.740 --> 01:02:49.980
+Is this something that you require?
+
+01:02:50.660 --> 01:02:51.860
+We don't require that,
+
+01:02:51.860 --> 01:02:54.940
+but we do try to encourage you to reproduce
+
+01:02:54.960 --> 01:02:57.380
+it on master if we think that it matters.
+
+01:02:57.720 --> 01:03:00.920
+Yeah, so if you can, that's even better.
+
+01:03:01.620 --> 01:03:03.940
+But if the bug is there in Emacs 29,
+
+01:03:03.940 --> 01:03:06.000
+maybe we want to fix it in Emacs 29.2.
+
+01:03:06.340 --> 01:03:09.820
+So the latest point release is also fine.
+
+01:03:10.400 --> 01:03:12.940
+Bugs in Emacs 28 at this point,
+
+01:03:12.940 --> 01:03:14.780
+like the previous major version,
+
+01:03:15.060 --> 01:03:17.720
+we might ask you to try to reproduce it on
+
+01:03:17.720 --> 01:03:19.600
+Emacs 29 because we're not planning more
+
+01:03:19.600 --> 01:03:21.600
+releases of old major versions.
+
+01:03:21.600 --> 01:03:23.660
+So that's the fundamental reason for that.
+
+01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:25.820
+Great. Thank you for your answer.
+
+01:03:25.900 --> 01:03:27.680
+All right. Moving on to the next question.
+
+01:03:27.840 --> 01:03:29.280
+On branching off sub-threads,
+
+01:03:29.680 --> 01:03:31.840
+I note that they are less visible compared to
+
+01:03:31.840 --> 01:03:33.380
+starting a new thread in practice.
+
+01:03:33.520 --> 01:03:35.680
+I am wondering if it is just my impression or
+
+01:03:35.680 --> 01:03:37.400
+something devs also observe.
+
+01:03:37.920 --> 01:03:39.780
+Yeah, it's true. That's correct.
+
+01:03:41.400 --> 01:03:42.840
+I don't know what to do about it.
+
+01:03:42.840 --> 01:03:44.160
+If you want more visibility,
+
+01:03:44.180 --> 01:03:45.920
+I guess just start a new thread.
+
+01:03:47.080 --> 01:03:48.960
+I don't know. I can only agree,
+
+01:03:48.960 --> 01:03:50.880
+really. I concur. That's true.
+
+01:03:51.720 --> 01:03:54.260
+Okay. Next question. What about rewriting
+
+01:03:54.340 --> 01:03:57.100
+Emacs in Rust? Use Guile instead of Elisp.
+
+01:03:57.260 --> 01:03:59.580
+Multi-threaded Emacs. Make Emacs prettier and
+
+01:03:59.580 --> 01:04:01.760
+shiny. And of course, same defaults.
+
+01:04:02.220 --> 01:04:04.440
+Just kidding. We are spoiled children because
+
+01:04:04.440 --> 01:04:07.780
+you and Eli, Lars, and etc do an impressive
+
+01:04:08.420 --> 01:04:10.620
+work. I live in Emacs since 2001.
+
+01:04:11.040 --> 01:04:14.220
+Thanks. That was a good 1.
+
+01:04:14.220 --> 01:04:17.880
+Sane defaults. Okay, Well,
+
+01:04:18.900 --> 01:04:20.580
+thank you. Thanks for that comment.
+
+01:04:20.580 --> 01:04:23.440
+That made me chuckle. Next question by the
+
+01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:24.520
+same person, I assume.
+
+01:04:24.520 --> 01:04:26.580
+The only downside I see with copyright
+
+01:04:26.580 --> 01:04:28.900
+assignment is that 1 has to disclose their
+
+01:04:28.900 --> 01:04:31.240
+real identity. Would it be a possibility to
+
+01:04:31.240 --> 01:04:32.860
+assign a copyright under a nickname?
+
+01:04:33.160 --> 01:04:34.840
+Yeah, you don't have to say a real name.
+
+01:04:34.840 --> 01:04:37.260
+Just register some pseudonym.
+
+01:04:37.360 --> 01:04:39.440
+The FSF does need your real name,
+
+01:04:39.440 --> 01:04:41.420
+but that's kept private only.
+
+01:04:41.500 --> 01:04:45.920
+So feel free to reach out to assign at
+
+01:04:45.920 --> 01:04:48.360
+gnu.org and ask more about that.
+
+01:04:49.860 --> 01:04:51.680
+Right. All right, next question.
+
+01:04:51.820 --> 01:04:53.400
+Do you think it is possible to reach an
+
+01:04:53.400 --> 01:04:55.240
+agreement on sane defaults for better
+
+01:04:55.240 --> 01:04:57.220
+out-of-the-box experience?
+
+01:04:57.800 --> 01:05:00.040
+Yeah, so your sane is not my sane
+
+01:05:00.060 --> 01:05:01.760
+necessarily. So that's the fundamental
+
+01:05:01.780 --> 01:05:02.960
+problem that we're discussing here.
+
+01:05:02.960 --> 01:05:03.960
+I think it's a social,
+
+01:05:03.960 --> 01:05:05.240
+not a technical problem.
+
+01:05:05.380 --> 01:05:07.580
+We do change defaults sometimes,
+
+01:05:07.640 --> 01:05:09.880
+but I mean, there is also some staying power.
+
+01:05:09.880 --> 01:05:12.260
+So it's understandable that,
+
+01:05:12.260 --> 01:05:13.940
+you know, it's, we can't just change them
+
+01:05:13.940 --> 01:05:15.920
+willy nilly and then flip flop between,
+
+01:05:15.920 --> 01:05:18.340
+you know, 1 or the other kind of thing.
+
+01:05:18.340 --> 01:05:20.060
+So it does take a little bit more time.
+
+01:05:20.060 --> 01:05:22.860
+But yeah, sure, we can.
+
+01:05:23.000 --> 01:05:25.860
+We do change defaults at times.
+
+01:05:26.380 --> 01:05:29.780
+But it's perhaps more slower than what some
+
+01:05:29.780 --> 01:05:31.420
+people would prefer, for sure.
+
+01:05:31.640 --> 01:05:36.000
+So that's, yeah. Right,
+
+01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:37.620
+all right. We have 2 more questions.
+
+01:05:37.920 --> 01:05:40.020
+So will XWidgets have a future?
+
+01:05:40.120 --> 01:05:42.180
+Seeing the new bugs popping up in the latest
+
+01:05:42.740 --> 01:05:45.280
+XWidget dev. Not sure if there was the rest
+
+01:05:45.280 --> 01:05:46.640
+of the question, But on XWidgets,
+
+01:05:46.640 --> 01:05:47.940
+can you tell us a little more?
+
+01:05:48.740 --> 01:05:50.580
+I'm not really following now.
+
+01:05:50.580 --> 01:05:52.400
+I mean, I'm not seeing a lot of development
+
+01:05:52.500 --> 01:05:54.180
+on XWidgets currently.
+
+01:05:54.480 --> 01:05:57.100
+Some people have done work in fixing up a few
+
+01:05:57.100 --> 01:06:00.320
+bugs, but I think that feature really needs
+
+01:06:00.380 --> 01:06:02.180
+more love. So I think we need,
+
+01:06:02.180 --> 01:06:03.600
+you know, help is welcome,
+
+01:06:03.600 --> 01:06:05.920
+patch is welcome. That's what I can say about
+
+01:06:05.920 --> 01:06:11.180
+that. All right, and our final question of
+
+01:06:11.180 --> 01:06:13.140
+the day. Have you voted for Emacs as the
+
+01:06:13.140 --> 01:06:15.140
+software of the year on the Tuxes by Jupyter
+
+01:06:15.140 --> 01:06:17.480
+Broadcasting? I did because Emacs 29 is
+
+01:06:17.480 --> 01:06:19.300
+great. Thank you. Okay,
+
+01:06:19.300 --> 01:06:20.580
+well, good job voting.
+
+01:06:20.580 --> 01:06:22.960
+I didn't know, I don't know what Tuxy is on
+
+01:06:22.960 --> 01:06:25.680
+Jupyter broadcasting, but look it up and go
+
+01:06:25.680 --> 01:06:28.040
+vote. So I wish I could tell you,
+
+01:06:28.040 --> 01:06:29.500
+I assume with Tux, it might be something
+
+01:06:29.500 --> 01:06:32.900
+related to Linux, but that's as much as I can
+
+01:06:32.900 --> 01:06:34.840
+say. All right, well, Stefan,
+
+01:06:34.960 --> 01:06:36.600
+thank you so much for taking the time not
+
+01:06:36.600 --> 01:06:38.000
+only to do a wonderful presentation,
+
+01:06:38.000 --> 01:06:39.640
+but also for answering all the questions of
+
+01:06:39.640 --> 01:06:41.240
+the community. Do you have anything else to
+
+01:06:41.240 --> 01:06:45.360
+add? Just really thanks for all the questions
+
+01:06:45.360 --> 01:06:46.760
+and thanks for staying.
+
+01:06:47.780 --> 01:06:49.600
+It's been a long day, a long conference,
+
+01:06:49.600 --> 01:06:51.180
+so thanks for staying and listening to my
+
+01:06:51.180 --> 01:06:52.540
+talk as well. Really appreciate it.
+
+01:06:52.540 --> 01:06:54.280
+Appreciate the good work you guys are doing
+
+01:06:54.280 --> 01:06:55.460
+behind the scenes, organizing,
+
+01:06:55.520 --> 01:06:56.740
+setting everything up.
+
+01:06:57.040 --> 01:07:00.420
+And really humbled to be a part of this
+
+01:07:00.420 --> 01:07:02.060
+community. So thank you all.
+
+01:07:02.680 --> 01:07:05.860
+Well I can assure you that no 1 either in the
+
+01:07:05.860 --> 01:07:08.040
+organization team or the people watching now
+
+01:07:08.040 --> 01:07:10.900
+felt like it was tiring to stay and listen to
+
+01:07:10.900 --> 01:07:12.760
+your answers. So thank you so much Stefan.