add answers captionsHEADmaster

1 files changed, 1294 insertions, 0 deletions

diff --git a/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-org-update--the-future-of-org--ihor-radchenko--answers.vtt b/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-org-update--the-future-of-org--ihor-radchenko--answers.vtt
new file mode 100644
index 00000000..a32b0da2
--- /dev/null
+++ b/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-org-update--the-future-of-org--ihor-radchenko--answers.vtt
@@ -0,0 +1,1294 @@
+WEBVTT
+
+00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.039
+And I believe we are live. Okay. Hi again, Ihor. How are you
+
+00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:09.359
+doing? Ready to answer questions, right? Yes. Ready to
+
+00:00:09.360 --> 00:00:13.039
+answer questions and all this. I mean, ready for
+
+00:00:13.040 --> 00:00:14.999
+everything. It's not just a question, it's the maintenance
+
+00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:21.679
+that is now lying in front of you. So... Oh, that's not the end
+
+00:00:21.680 --> 00:00:25.159
+of the day. I mean, it's a rare thing indeed, because you
+
+00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:27.439
+might not be able to see it on BBB. I'm checking in, but we've
+
+00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:30.599
+got Ihor, obviously, but we also have Bastien and also
+
+00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:34.199
+Carsten in the room. So, we have three maintainers of Org
+
+00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:36.119
+Mode right there in the room to answer all your questions.
+
+00:00:36.120 --> 00:00:40.759
+So, it's a rare occasion that I invite all of you to seize the
+
+00:00:40.760 --> 00:00:44.679
+day on this. Ihor, do you have anything maybe to say before we
+
+00:00:44.680 --> 00:00:49.599
+start moving into the questions? Well, I hope that I said
+
+00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:51.759
+everything I wanted. Hello, Bastien. during the
+
+00:00:51.760 --> 00:00:55.519
+presentation. Well, actually, I can say a lot more, like
+
+00:00:55.520 --> 00:01:01.439
+infinitely, because when I first recorded it, it was like
+
+00:01:01.440 --> 00:01:05.999
+one hour. So yeah. I mean, you did a, I'll just let you know,
+
+00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:08.359
+you did a fine job condensing everything in just 40 minutes.
+
+00:01:08.360 --> 00:01:14.079
+So congratulations on this. Yeah, it's, yeah, usually one
+
+00:01:14.080 --> 00:01:18.039
+minute per slide is the best way. Otherwise, it's something
+
+00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:22.319
+that's wrong with this presentation. Right, so just moving
+
+00:01:22.320 --> 00:01:25.519
+into the question, and by the way we've got 20 minutes, we
+
+00:01:25.520 --> 00:01:27.799
+might be able to chat a little more if Bastien wants to say
+
+00:01:27.800 --> 00:01:29.919
+something as well and Carsten, you know, feel free to
+
+00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:33.119
+intervene at any point during the questions if you've got
+
+00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:35.279
+anything to contribute or our voice will just show the
+
+00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:37.879
+breeze later on. So the first question is relating to
+
+00:01:37.880 --> 00:01:41.479
+something you said about 10 minutes 34 that might speak more
+
+00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:42.685
+to you than to me.
+
+NOTE Q: Is the track-changes item about the org-element parser?
+
+00:01:42.686 --> 00:01:45.159
+Is the track changes item about the org
+
+00:01:45.160 --> 00:01:51.519
+element parser Yes, the track changes is a new library that
+
+00:01:51.520 --> 00:01:58.959
+helps to receive changes in buffers incrementally. So like
+
+00:01:58.960 --> 00:02:03.079
+you can, it has API where you can request what changes
+
+00:02:03.080 --> 00:02:07.999
+happened in buffer since last request, chunk by chunk. And
+
+00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:14.119
+in org mode, in org element parser, we do pretty much the same
+
+00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:19.879
+thing, but using timers. So this track changes library
+
+00:02:19.880 --> 00:02:25.159
+should improve things, first, because it's a bit faster,
+
+00:02:25.160 --> 00:02:29.279
+because we don't need to conjure every single change, and
+
+00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:32.119
+track changes can agglomerate changes into chunks much
+
+00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:36.039
+more efficiently. And second, it's a built-in library, so
+
+00:02:36.040 --> 00:02:40.439
+it's a good idea to use built-in library when there is such an
+
+00:02:40.440 --> 00:02:45.879
+option, instead of running out our own implementation.
+
+00:02:45.880 --> 00:02:49.399
+Definitely. Moving on to the second question, although I'm
+
+00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:52.664
+not sure it refers that much to what you can do.
+
+NOTE Q: Could you please keep IRC alive? I prefer it to Matrix
+
+00:02:52.665 --> 00:02:57.759
+Could you please keep IRC alive? And I prefer it to Matrix. I mean,
+
+00:02:57.760 --> 00:03:03.239
+you did talk about IRC, right? But did we talk about phasing
+
+00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:08.799
+it out? So I try to be live on IRC, but I use mobile client for
+
+00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:12.999
+IRC to keep connected. So I usually connected, I usually see
+
+00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:15.519
+messages, except certain times when I don't have mobile
+
+00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:19.239
+internet. Right. Okay. That's why many people will tell
+
+00:03:19.240 --> 00:03:23.399
+you, you need a bouncer and all this, but the IRC crowd is very
+
+00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:33.679
+loud. I just don't know a good bouncer. I don't have a good
+
+00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:36.399
+setup for a bouncer. Okay.
+
+00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:41.239
+Personally, I use WeChat usually to stay connected to
+
+00:03:41.240 --> 00:03:44.119
+email. It's obviously a client for IRC, but it also allows
+
+00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.959
+you to, you know, you can keep it as a bouncer, but it's not in
+
+00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:54.159
+Emacs. It is. I don't have a computer that is running 24
+
+00:03:54.160 --> 00:03:56.839
+hours, so. I mean, that's the thing. I do have a server to run
+
+00:03:56.840 --> 00:04:02.239
+it off. All right, moving on to the third question. That is
+
+00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:06.559
+what is running 24 hours. Right. Okay. All right. Moving on
+
+00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:07.987
+to the third question.
+
+NOTE Q: Is there any plan for adding support for other modalities of notes like handwritten,  audio, etc.?
+
+00:04:07.988 --> 00:04:09.519
+Is there any plan for adding support
+
+00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:11.959
+for other modalities of note-like, handwritten, audio,
+
+00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:14.919
+and et cetera? Would that be interesting to the community?
+
+00:04:14.920 --> 00:04:20.319
+It will definitely be useful for me. I didn't. Okay. So this
+
+00:04:20.320 --> 00:04:25.399
+is not the idea I hear frequently. So there's no plan for such
+
+00:04:25.400 --> 00:04:29.959
+thing. Modalities of notes like handwritten audio. I think
+
+00:04:29.960 --> 00:04:34.519
+John Kitchin did some handwritten note.
+
+00:04:34.520 --> 00:04:46.119
+John Kitchin. Yeah. And for audio, I think as well. I. So
+
+00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:48.999
+basically you can use attachments, you can use images to
+
+00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:54.279
+paste you. I think John Kitchin even use it to automatically
+
+00:04:54.280 --> 00:04:58.519
+recognize notes.
+
+00:04:58.520 --> 00:05:05.359
+I think the previous speaker was talking about a whisper to
+
+00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:10.399
+recognize voice. Right.
+
+00:05:10.400 --> 00:05:13.959
+Otherwise there is no special workflow and I'm not even sure
+
+00:05:13.960 --> 00:05:16.919
+what we can do to support this workflow specifically.
+
+00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:22.759
+Yeah, it definitely feels like Org Mode is a good format for
+
+00:05:22.760 --> 00:05:25.719
+textual stuff, and a lot of things are textual. I mean,
+
+00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:29.679
+that's the whole philosophy behind Emacs. But when it comes
+
+00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:34.439
+to voice, it feels like it's... I think the person asking the
+
+00:05:34.440 --> 00:05:36.799
+question probably needs to specify what they mean by voice.
+
+00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:40.279
+Is it just raw note-taking, as Blaine mentioned in a
+
+00:05:40.280 --> 00:05:43.199
+previous talk, or is it something else? Feel free to add up to
+
+00:05:43.200 --> 00:05:46.759
+the question and we'll return to it later on.
+
+00:05:46.760 --> 00:05:51.919
+I think this is kind of related to drag and drop. I think you
+
+00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:57.279
+would like to be able to have an audio file and drop it in and
+
+00:05:57.280 --> 00:06:00.879
+have it translated to text. I think that would be an
+
+00:06:00.880 --> 00:06:03.959
+interesting API to do this, right? So that you can integrate
+
+00:06:03.960 --> 00:06:07.599
+it into something like drag and drop. I think I'm going to
+
+00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:12.079
+talk with supporters in since overnight. So we have, I
+
+00:06:12.080 --> 00:06:14.959
+believe what constant is alluring to is the fact that not
+
+00:06:14.960 --> 00:06:17.679
+just pictures but imagine if you were bringing in an audio
+
+00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:20.399
+file maybe you could, I mean I'm not sure it would work with
+
+00:06:20.400 --> 00:06:24.279
+whisper but. transcribing it in a way and inserting it as
+
+00:06:24.280 --> 00:06:27.079
+text. Although I'm not sure how we would be able to do this,
+
+00:06:27.080 --> 00:06:30.159
+but it's an interesting idea though. It can work if you write
+
+00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:35.359
+some kind of automatic speech recognition. It's not really
+
+00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:39.479
+a job for work. If you have some library that can transform
+
+00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:43.959
+audio to text or transform image to text in Elixir, then we
+
+00:06:43.960 --> 00:06:47.599
+can happily use that library. Definitely, but I can tell you
+
+00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:50.119
+that Whisper is not something that works very quickly. We do
+
+00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:53.479
+use Whisper AI to transcribe some of the talks that we
+
+00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:56.879
+broadcast during EmacsConf, and I can tell you it takes a
+
+00:06:56.880 --> 00:06:59.359
+fair while. If you have a video that lasts one minute, it's
+
+00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:03.439
+definitely going to take more than one minute to try to
+
+00:07:03.440 --> 00:07:09.239
+transcribe the video. We had to wait for a few years until it
+
+00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:12.679
+passed. Probably, but it's good to have the ID now so
+
+00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:17.479
+that we are ready eventually to do this. There is the new
+
+00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:23.319
+asynchronous IP. It's called org-pending. It's work in
+
+00:07:23.320 --> 00:07:29.599
+progress. And that basically allows to defer inserting
+
+00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:34.199
+text into our buffers until later. And while it's being
+
+00:07:34.200 --> 00:07:37.719
+worked on, it will basically highlight the place where it
+
+00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:43.159
+will be inserted. And you can click on it, see the progress,
+
+00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:49.519
+and stuff like that. So this is for Babylon, but I imagine for
+
+00:07:49.520 --> 00:07:56.159
+things like voice recognition, it can also work.
+
+00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:59.799
+All right, what I suggest we do, we're going to fill the two
+
+00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:02.279
+questions that we have now, and then it'd be nice if we could
+
+00:08:02.280 --> 00:08:05.399
+hear a word from Bastien and from Carsten as well, because
+
+00:08:05.400 --> 00:08:08.719
+it's rare to have all of you three in a room, and it would be
+
+00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:11.439
+nice maybe to chat a little bit about this. So quickly, with
+
+NOTE Q: WRT IETF standardization, have you looked at Karl Voit's OrgDown?
+
+00:08:11.440 --> 00:08:14.199
+the last two questions, with regards to IETF
+
+00:08:14.200 --> 00:08:17.039
+standardization, have you looked at Karl Voit's Orgdown?
+
+00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:24.919
+So, of course, there was a discussion on the mailing list,
+
+00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:28.319
+and there was a lot of pushback to this idea, especially to
+
+00:08:28.320 --> 00:08:33.399
+simplify the syntax. So, in short, the conclusion from
+
+00:08:33.400 --> 00:08:37.799
+there is we want the full syntax, we don't want to have things
+
+00:08:37.800 --> 00:08:43.079
+like different versus Org mode. But for the syntax, we may
+
+00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:49.279
+specify different like coverage. So for example, it's a
+
+00:08:49.280 --> 00:08:53.119
+minimal, it has a minimal support so people can, there's
+
+00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:59.079
+some parsers or apps can support just whatever curl calls
+
+00:08:59.080 --> 00:09:04.239
+fork down like level zero or level one or whatever. But the
+
+00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:10.079
+key point is, when it goes to IETF, we want to have the full
+
+00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:13.119
+syntax. We don't want to split it into pieces.
+
+00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:18.959
+Makes a lot of sense. All right. And the last question we have
+
+NOTE Q: About a year ago we discussed switching GNU documentation from texinfo to org. Do you still consider this?
+
+00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:22.359
+for now. About a year ago, we discussed switching new
+
+00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:26.239
+documentation from texinfo to org. Do you still consider
+
+00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:30.879
+this? definitely contributed to some of the ideas about
+
+00:09:30.880 --> 00:09:34.479
+syntax. For example, the inline special blocks, I think
+
+00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:41.639
+about them with this in mind, so that, so basically, one
+
+00:09:41.640 --> 00:09:45.999
+clarity, we don't want to complicate our syntax, we don't
+
+00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:50.319
+want to have special built-in support for variable, or I
+
+00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:54.319
+don't know, function name, or all this kind of specific
+
+00:09:54.320 --> 00:10:00.959
+markup. But instead, the idea is to have some generic custom
+
+00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:06.479
+syntax. And then when it goes to software manuals, we want
+
+00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:09.759
+some like optional library that will provide certain
+
+00:10:09.760 --> 00:10:12.439
+syntax extensions, like inline special block for
+
+00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:15.479
+variables, inline special block for acronym and stuff like
+
+00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:20.999
+that. Then people who want to use Org mode for manuals should
+
+00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:26.119
+be able to use that new markup to achieve what they want.
+
+00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:34.359
+That's a distant idea. But the key point is we want to keep org
+
+00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:39.039
+mode as generic syntax. We don't want to specialize it for
+
+00:10:39.040 --> 00:10:43.799
+software specifically. But generic in the sense that it can
+
+00:10:43.800 --> 00:10:44.759
+be used for software as well.
+
+00:10:44.760 --> 00:10:50.959
+All right, well thank you so much for your answer here and
+
+00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:56.399
+that was very enlightening but I'd first like to give the mic
+
+00:10:56.400 --> 00:11:00.359
+to Bastien who might need to leave shortly and I just want to
+
+00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:03.559
+make sure that you get to chat a little bit Bastien because
+
+00:11:03.560 --> 00:11:06.199
+it's a big thing we've had you as a maintainer for however
+
+00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:13.199
+long now? Well, officially, it was 14 years. But obviously,
+
+00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:17.999
+EHO has been doing much of the groundwork as a de facto
+
+00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:20.239
+maintainer for several years now, I believe for three or
+
+00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:28.679
+four years. And before Before IHO, there was Nicolas Goaziou,
+
+00:11:28.680 --> 00:11:33.679
+who's doing a lot of work. Also Kyle Meyer, who is still
+
+00:11:33.680 --> 00:11:40.599
+active, backporting Emacs changes. So
+
+00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:46.039
+it's a relief that we can do things properly, that I didn't
+
+00:11:46.040 --> 00:11:51.439
+give up before someone could really step up. I'm glad we're
+
+00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:57.679
+doing this. And I'm glad there was so much help during the
+
+00:11:57.680 --> 00:12:01.959
+time when I was not available enough. Well, thank you,
+
+00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:05.039
+Bastien. I think on behalf of the community, I think I'd like
+
+00:12:05.040 --> 00:12:07.719
+to extend a big thank you for all the work you've done
+
+00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:12.279
+throughout those 14 years. And if we pull the rope just a
+
+00:12:12.280 --> 00:12:15.719
+little more, before those 14 years, we had someone else
+
+00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:18.199
+maintaining Org Mode, well, not actually just maintaining
+
+00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:20.879
+Org Mode, but also inventing it. Carsten, how are you doing?
+
+00:12:20.880 --> 00:12:26.799
+I am. I'm doing fine. A really great opportunity to be here.
+
+NOTE Community
+
+00:12:26.800 --> 00:12:31.279
+First, I would like to start by indeed thanking Bastien
+
+00:12:31.280 --> 00:12:34.839
+because, I mean, he was not only maintainer after I stopped,
+
+00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:37.839
+but already during the time I was there, he was one of the key
+
+00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:40.559
+contributors who helped the project along for quite a bit.
+
+00:12:40.560 --> 00:12:44.759
+So it's an incredible investment of time and energy that
+
+00:12:44.760 --> 00:12:48.399
+Basquiat has shown, which is really fantastic. And now I see
+
+00:12:48.400 --> 00:12:52.479
+Ihor taking over with, as far as I can see, deep knowledge and
+
+00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:56.199
+all the right ideas about philosophy. So I'm really
+
+00:12:56.200 --> 00:13:00.039
+impressed. For me, this is really totally amazing because I
+
+00:13:00.040 --> 00:13:04.719
+started hacking this more than 20 years ago. And to just see
+
+00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:07.679
+that there's a community that has sustained itself with the
+
+00:13:07.680 --> 00:13:11.439
+help of new maintainers for such a long time makes me
+
+00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:13.999
+extremely grateful. So thank you very much to all of you.
+
+00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:20.679
+Okay, well, amazing. I mean, I'm a little flustered, I must
+
+00:13:20.680 --> 00:13:23.559
+admit, because I'm seeing three players of the community in
+
+00:13:23.560 --> 00:13:27.639
+a way that have kept me busy with very fun stuff to do with Org
+
+00:13:27.640 --> 00:13:30.999
+Mode, and it's really amazing to see three giants of the
+
+00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:34.239
+community being able to maintain Org Mode for so long and
+
+00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:38.199
+contribute so much to it. So, again, thanks to all of you
+
+00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:40.981
+three. I must also admit that it's really amazing for me
+
+00:13:40.982 --> 00:13:45.442
+that all of you three stress the importance of the community
+
+00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:48.479
+a whole lot, and I know that Bastien, you've talked about
+
+00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:51.359
+maintaining software last year at Emacs Confs, and even
+
+00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:55.519
+today, during the one-minute little chat that you did in
+
+00:13:55.520 --> 00:13:59.279
+Ihor's chat, you stressed the importance of maintenance and to
+
+00:13:59.280 --> 00:14:06.559
+be future-oriented about it. I'm kind of wondering, why do
+
+00:14:06.560 --> 00:14:12.679
+you think community is so important to Org Mode in general?
+
+00:14:12.680 --> 00:14:14.679
+Like, obviously we've talked about maintainers and we've
+
+00:14:14.680 --> 00:14:16.879
+talked about volunteers, but don't you think there's
+
+00:14:16.880 --> 00:14:19.159
+something more about community in general, about Org Mode
+
+00:14:19.160 --> 00:14:20.950
+and the fact that we are all taking notes
+
+00:14:20.951 --> 00:14:34.799
+and doing so much with it? Yeah, are you asking me?
+
+00:14:34.800 --> 00:14:40.640
+I remember Carsten made his point during the Google talk about
+
+00:14:40.680 --> 00:14:45.159
+the core idea of Org Mode, about mixing note taking and to-do
+
+00:14:45.160 --> 00:14:49.959
+manager. It was really powerful. And also in the same
+
+00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:53.399
+presentation that 98%
+
+00:14:53.400 --> 00:14:57.047
+of the features were organically developed as ideas
+
+00:14:57.048 --> 00:15:00.668
+by the community. And Ihor just said the same today
+
+00:15:00.669 --> 00:15:03.589
+in the presentation, like most of the features,
+
+00:15:03.590 --> 00:15:06.875
+not only the ideas, but also the code came from
+
+00:15:06.876 --> 00:15:11.350
+the communities. So that's why the community is so rich.
+
+00:15:11.351 --> 00:15:12.759
+And another thing is
+
+00:15:12.760 --> 00:15:16.919
+also that I do remember. Now everyone is having kind of an open
+
+00:15:16.920 --> 00:15:20.799
+source fatigue and questions about how is it okay to be
+
+00:15:20.800 --> 00:15:24.039
+maintainer? How do you keep open source project
+
+00:15:24.040 --> 00:15:28.199
+sustainable? And I'm saying open source on purpose with
+
+00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:33.119
+this audience to see beyond just the small GNU project and
+
+00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:36.359
+the small free software community. So at large, there is
+
+00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:40.679
+some sense of fatigue. I remember that the Org community
+
+00:15:40.680 --> 00:15:44.079
+right from the beginning had a reputation of being an
+
+00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:48.839
+amazing community and I think it
+
+00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:54.879
+continues to be one and I'm amazed that sometimes when I'm,
+
+00:15:54.880 --> 00:15:59.199
+you know, sometimes I'm, I have this fatigue of moderating
+
+00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:01.839
+emails from the mailing list, for example, and filtering
+
+00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:06.199
+out spam. And then I go on the list and I read some emails and I
+
+00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:09.536
+feel like, okay, this is still there. And it's really
+
+00:16:09.537 --> 00:16:14.559
+a boost of energy. I wish that this repetition outside Org Mode,
+
+00:16:14.560 --> 00:16:19.239
+outside Emacs, of being a nice welcoming,
+
+00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:22.559
+community of knowledgeable people talking of things
+
+00:16:22.560 --> 00:16:25.319
+and learning from each other that we can
+
+00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:30.159
+keep up with this pace. Yeah, maybe if I
+
+00:16:30.160 --> 00:16:32.919
+can just add to this, I think you're making an extremely
+
+00:16:32.920 --> 00:16:36.679
+important point, Pascal. I think that was really, from the
+
+00:16:36.680 --> 00:16:39.639
+beginning, something that was really special. And I think
+
+00:16:39.640 --> 00:16:45.639
+the reason why we all community still works is that first me,
+
+00:16:45.640 --> 00:16:49.239
+but in particular also the two of you and more people have
+
+00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:53.359
+been able to keep up the friendly spirit in this community.
+
+00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:57.239
+Because we had very few fights on the mailing list. There
+
+00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:02.879
+were a few at some point, we had a few contributors with a
+
+00:17:02.880 --> 00:17:06.719
+little bit of fights. And I remember that I, for example, had
+
+00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:10.159
+to invest a lot of time to keep that one under control, but I
+
+00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:14.199
+think it was totally worth it because as a group, as a whole, I
+
+00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:18.679
+think it was really fantastic. Our friendly people
+
+00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:21.719
+always were, and I think that has spurred all the
+
+00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:22.640
+contributions that we had. Because
+
+00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:25.542
+if you are in a toxic environment, you will
+
+00:17:25.543 --> 00:17:29.458
+not be willing to stay and to invest all their time. And if you
+
+00:17:29.708 --> 00:17:32.291
+are in an appreciative environment where people support
+
+00:17:32.292 --> 00:17:35.191
+each other, it's a completely different game. So I really
+
+00:17:35.192 --> 00:17:38.566
+think that Org Mode is a great example for open source
+
+00:17:38.567 --> 00:17:43.774
+projects that many other communities can learn from.
+
+00:17:43.775 --> 00:17:52.441
+If I may just interject for a second, because we need to go
+
+00:17:52.442 --> 00:17:55.441
+into the next chat for the live stream. But as usual, I invite
+
+00:17:55.442 --> 00:17:57.524
+you, if you're interested with the discussion, we are
+
+00:17:57.525 --> 00:18:01.482
+staying on BBB, asking questions to Bastien, to Ihor and
+
+00:18:01.483 --> 00:18:04.316
+to Carsten. So feel free to join on BBB and chat with them
+
+00:18:04.317 --> 00:18:07.857
+live. The stream will be moving on to the next chat, but we
+
+00:18:07.858 --> 00:18:10.566
+will be recording the Q&A and posting it afterwards on
+
+00:18:10.567 --> 00:18:13.441
+emacsconf. So, I'll use the opportunity to thank you again,
+
+00:18:13.442 --> 00:18:18.941
+all three, for taking part in this EmacsConf, and enjoy the
+
+00:18:18.942 --> 00:18:27.482
+discussion, and we'll see you later! Thank you, bye bye! So,
+
+00:18:27.483 --> 00:18:31.274
+yeah, what I was starting to say actually is I feel that the
+
+00:18:31.275 --> 00:18:35.024
+Org Mode community and to the big extent the Emacs community
+
+00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:38.679
+is a bit like research in the early days when there was a bunch
+
+00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:43.959
+of enthusiasts who just exchanged mails together and tried
+
+00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:49.159
+to find out something new. And there was like no feeling of
+
+00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:52.719
+competition or too much competition at that time. Unlike
+
+00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:58.759
+now when we like we all rise for funding and stuff. So it's,
+
+00:18:58.760 --> 00:19:02.199
+it's really, it's really nice to, to, to have communities
+
+00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:05.919
+that has the spirit and they hope it can keep the spirit in
+
+00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:08.279
+future as well.
+
+00:19:08.280 --> 00:19:14.599
+Yeah. Yeah. I thought I'm very optimistic after. So I mean,
+
+00:19:14.600 --> 00:19:18.679
+actually had not been reading the mailing list for quite a
+
+00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:23.039
+while, but I started to read it again a little while ago and I
+
+00:19:23.040 --> 00:19:26.719
+could just see you also working on it and see how everything
+
+00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:30.919
+was going. That made me extremely happy to see that and made
+
+00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:37.679
+me very proud that this is still ongoing.
+
+00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:42.799
+I was interested about your point about the tables with
+
+00:19:42.800 --> 00:19:49.079
+multi-lines. My unsolicited advice is don't do it, because
+
+00:19:49.080 --> 00:19:52.639
+I think it's going to be a mess. Which I think is reflected
+
+00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.039
+also by you saying that nobody has a good idea on how to do
+
+00:19:56.040 --> 00:20:01.079
+this. I have certainly thought about it. It is requested so
+
+00:20:01.080 --> 00:20:04.599
+often. It's requested so often that it feels like it would be
+
+00:20:04.600 --> 00:20:07.959
+nice to come out with something. The question is, it is what?
+
+00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:11.399
+Yeah, that's a big question. Because I don't always ask
+
+00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:15.919
+eDocs, for example, and they do have multi line cells in
+
+00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:21.279
+tables, but that syntax is so ugly. Yes. Yeah, no, exactly. I
+
+00:20:21.280 --> 00:20:28.719
+think this is a problem and the question is, how far do you
+
+00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:33.639
+want to develop or want to be a completely full authoring
+
+00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:35.839
+system in the sense that you have all these options there
+
+00:20:35.840 --> 00:20:39.999
+because I think to me, the Org Mode tables have a specific
+
+00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.759
+application. They have this fast way of building
+
+00:20:42.760 --> 00:20:46.079
+something. And if I would have to go and build a hugely
+
+00:20:46.080 --> 00:20:50.279
+complicated table with different numbers of columns and
+
+00:20:50.280 --> 00:20:53.959
+columns going away and appearing further down the table, so
+
+00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:56.639
+I would probably go somewhere else. So for me, this seems to
+
+00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.319
+be overkill. So I don't want to curb anybody's enthusiasm.
+
+00:21:00.320 --> 00:21:04.919
+But I think it's really important to keep to keep the kind of
+
+00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:11.199
+functionality that it has. It's a very easy use and quick
+
+00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:15.879
+ability to do something interesting that I think is more
+
+00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:23.319
+important. There could be reasons to not do something. So
+
+00:21:23.320 --> 00:21:28.399
+again, the thing is, we don't have a good idea. But what I know
+
+00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:32.319
+100% is that we are not going to give up the existing syntax.
+
+00:21:32.320 --> 00:21:38.839
+Yeah, for sure. So even if you come up with something good,
+
+00:21:38.840 --> 00:21:42.279
+the existing syntax will remain working. And if people who
+
+00:21:42.280 --> 00:21:46.159
+need to use simple tables, they should remain possible in
+
+00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:52.759
+exactly the same way. But I know many people struggle and try
+
+00:21:52.760 --> 00:21:55.839
+in LaTeX and other workarounds just to create more complex
+
+00:21:55.840 --> 00:22:01.039
+tables. So there's clearly a demand. I think this is related
+
+00:22:01.040 --> 00:22:04.439
+to the other question that you asked earlier. I think it's
+
+00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:06.639
+related to the question about the different parsers. And
+
+00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:09.999
+then, of course, the way the tables are implemented now is by
+
+00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:11.944
+basically just looking at what's around you
+
+00:22:11.945 --> 00:22:13.484
+and doing the right things with
+
+00:22:13.485 --> 00:22:20.479
+this regular expression-based part of
+
+00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:24.279
+the parser. And you probably would have to fully use the
+
+00:22:24.280 --> 00:22:28.839
+other parts and to do all the changes in the formal structure
+
+00:22:28.840 --> 00:22:31.559
+in order to do something like this. So I have to be honest that
+
+00:22:31.560 --> 00:22:35.559
+I don't understand this well enough to really have a
+
+00:22:35.560 --> 00:22:39.679
+meaningful idea about it. Not only that, we'll also need to
+
+00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:42.799
+rewrite the spreadsheet functionality because it is
+
+00:22:42.800 --> 00:22:47.679
+completely using regular expressions. Exactly. Not only
+
+00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:50.639
+idea is missing that the roadmap will be very complicated if
+
+00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:57.519
+you get there. Yeah. I mean, I do remember. Yeah, go ahead.
+
+00:22:57.520 --> 00:23:03.359
+Yeah, sorry. I do remember Richard Stallman saying that
+
+00:23:03.360 --> 00:23:09.759
+Org Mode was doing too much. So my answer was just, coming from
+
+00:23:09.760 --> 00:23:14.159
+the inventor of Emacs, I took it as a compliment for Org Mode.
+
+00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:19.319
+But of course, that was just humor. And I agree that the
+
+00:23:19.320 --> 00:23:24.279
+simple things should keep being simple. And I like the
+
+00:23:24.280 --> 00:23:30.039
+custom syntax idea of Juan because it goes in the direction
+
+00:23:30.040 --> 00:23:34.159
+of flexibility while keeping things simple.
+
+00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:40.319
+And looking forward to what people will come up with. I like
+
+00:23:40.320 --> 00:23:44.839
+the idea that you want to formalize the syntax. I think that
+
+00:23:44.840 --> 00:23:48.479
+is really very good. I'd like to also submit it. I think that
+
+00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:52.359
+would be excellent. I'm also... I think it was proposed by
+
+00:23:52.360 --> 00:23:57.239
+Timothy, yeah. Initially. Okay. Yeah, that's really
+
+00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:02.839
+helpful. Pascal, are you still talking, I think? No, yeah, I
+
+00:24:02.840 --> 00:24:08.399
+just wanted to say also for the younger Emacs users, there is
+
+00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:12.839
+a lot of new things in Emacs the last five years. It has been so
+
+00:24:12.840 --> 00:24:17.719
+exciting. And I believe it's exciting for Org Mode too, the
+
+00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:22.439
+things you mentioned about track changes. uh native
+
+00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:25.639
+compilation and all that stuff that that's really good like
+
+00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:29.879
+some some performance problems that we had for org mode for
+
+00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:33.759
+the agenda and stuff like that were suddenly solved by uh the
+
+00:24:33.760 --> 00:24:38.159
+the crazy amazing work by Eli and emacs maintainers so
+
+00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:40.457
+it's really exciting for org as well.
+
+00:24:40.458 --> 00:24:43.566
+I don't know how you feel, Ihor, about this,
+
+00:24:43.567 --> 00:24:45.482
+but I know you are reading the Emacs
+
+00:24:45.483 --> 00:24:50.732
+development mailing list and keeping this is a job in
+
+00:24:50.733 --> 00:24:54.774
+itself, but it's really exciting for everyone, I guess. Not
+
+00:24:54.775 --> 00:24:58.274
+only that, I hope we can upstream org-ql, which will speed up
+
+00:24:58.275 --> 00:25:00.566
+agenda specifically even more.
+
+00:25:00.567 --> 00:25:06.982
+Okay. I need to fly away, but it was really nice connecting
+
+00:25:06.983 --> 00:25:13.899
+and I hope everyone has a great conference. Bye-bye. It was
+
+00:25:13.900 --> 00:25:16.107
+so good to see you. Thank you again for everything that you
+
+00:25:16.108 --> 00:25:21.399
+have done. Thanks to you both. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
+
+NOTE Off-stream Q&A
+
+00:25:28.520 --> 00:25:35.959
+All right. Is it only the two of us now? I don't really know who
+
+00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:40.239
+else. Can you see if there's anybody else in this room? I
+
+00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:45.079
+don't know. There are like two, four, six people and Sacha is
+
+00:25:45.080 --> 00:25:48.159
+one of them, so probably five people. Oh, Sacha is here.
+
+00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:51.999
+Okay. I haven't heard her say anything, but I see her in the
+
+00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:58.479
+chat. Okay. It's the same room, basically. Hi, Sacha. Oh,
+
+00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:02.199
+okay. They're also at her pad, so we may want to finish other
+
+00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:08.839
+questions, maybe, if there are some. This is just a circle.
+
+NOTE microemacs
+
+00:26:08.840 --> 00:26:12.079
+This is just a historical question, but Carsten, I think you
+
+00:26:12.080 --> 00:26:14.359
+used microemacs back in the day.
+
+00:26:14.360 --> 00:26:17.839
+Did that have any influence
+
+00:26:17.840 --> 00:26:23.879
+on Org? That is a really interesting question. I used
+
+00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:27.359
+microemacs as my first version of emacs, and then I stepped
+
+00:26:27.360 --> 00:26:33.359
+over to Emacs. I actually did two things at the same time. I
+
+00:26:33.360 --> 00:26:39.119
+also was working with so Awk basically, that language. I ran
+
+00:26:39.120 --> 00:26:45.599
+against walls with both Micro-Emacs and with Awk, where I had
+
+00:26:45.600 --> 00:26:48.639
+the feeling I don't have enough freedom to do everything
+
+00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:52.839
+that I wanted, so I switched to Perl on one side and to Emacs on
+
+00:26:52.840 --> 00:26:58.679
+the other side. That's what it was. Micro-Emacs absolutely
+
+00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:02.679
+had the function to pull me into Emacs, But it's not that I
+
+00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:04.759
+have specific microemacs features that would have
+
+00:27:04.760 --> 00:27:08.119
+triggered me to do something for Org Mode. I think that would be
+
+00:27:08.120 --> 00:27:14.207
+the answer to your question. All right, thanks.
+
+00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:21.639
+Are you a user of microemacs, George? I posted the source to
+
+00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:26.719
+CompSource's Amiga in 86, and I was somewhat responsible
+
+00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:31.959
+for it being in the wild. Oh, I'm so sorry that I didn't,
+
+00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:35.199
+wasn't really aware that I made the connection to your name.
+
+00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:39.719
+No, no, no, no. We all moved on and the world is a better place.
+
+00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:44.799
+Yeah. No, I actually did use it for something like, I think
+
+00:27:44.800 --> 00:27:47.440
+six years as my only admin at the time before I made the
+
+00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:51.359
+switch. No, I put it out to the list. David Lawrence ran with
+
+00:27:51.360 --> 00:27:55.399
+it and you know, that was about, that was the end of it. And I
+
+00:27:55.400 --> 00:27:57.599
+actually implemented something like fly spell for
+
+00:27:57.600 --> 00:28:02.359
+microemacs. I remember doing that at some point. Yeah, no, I
+
+00:28:02.360 --> 00:28:05.319
+don't want us to get stuck on that. I don't want us to get stuck
+
+00:28:05.320 --> 00:28:10.279
+on that, so. Yeah, yeah. Good. Thank you. Thank you for
+
+00:28:10.280 --> 00:28:17.679
+Org Mode. Yeah, you're most welcome.
+
+00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:22.199
+For microemacs, actually, I also tried it once. It feels
+
+00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:27.959
+like at home after Emacs, of course, the major downside was at
+
+00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:33.599
+this point is that there is no UTF support. I think that was
+
+00:28:33.600 --> 00:28:40.039
+like, unfortunately, that that's not going to work. I
+
+00:28:40.040 --> 00:28:43.959
+think I'm also going to disconnect now. But it was really
+
+00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:49.119
+fantastic to listen to your talk. I wish you all the best. I'm
+
+00:28:49.120 --> 00:28:53.479
+sure that is a good answer. Thank you for joining, and nice to
+
+00:28:53.480 --> 00:29:00.159
+meet you. Yeah, bye. Bye.
+
+00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:02.799
+Okay, so there are still people in the room, so if you want to
+
+00:29:02.800 --> 00:29:10.440
+ask questions, feel free to do it. I
+
+00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:12.679
+think there's one unanswered question in the etherpad
+
+00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:18.119
+also. Let me see.
+
+00:29:18.120 --> 00:29:21.639
+It's probably awkward to answer. Okay, I can answer and then
+
+00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:24.039
+probably answering the answer for this one. So there's a
+
+00:29:24.040 --> 00:29:28.519
+question about, from a person, I spent some time writing a
+
+00:29:28.520 --> 00:29:31.919
+library for myself, which involved working with Org files.
+
+NOTE Q: Is there/could there be a resource with which to recommend particularly well written codebases for review by others?
+
+00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:34.359
+One thing I struggled with was finding a good source of
+
+00:29:34.360 --> 00:29:41.599
+reference code which demonstrated idiomatic usage.
+
+00:29:41.600 --> 00:29:46.319
+particularly well-written code bases for review by
+
+00:29:46.320 --> 00:29:52.599
+others? That's a good question. We have some wiki pages.
+
+00:29:52.600 --> 00:29:57.039
+I'll put it in the answer later. You can also check Org Mode's
+
+00:29:57.040 --> 00:30:02.399
+code, but usually in org-element there are good usages, and
+
+00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:06.919
+in Org export.
+
+00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:10.279
+Otherwise, maybe something from Alphapapa, but I need to
+
+00:30:10.280 --> 00:30:13.320
+check that and probably reply later.
+
+00:30:16.167 --> 00:30:23.875
+Otherwise, that's all. So I'm going to end this.
+
+00:30:52.400 --> 00:32:09.720
+Bye bye.