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+WEBVTT
+
+00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:12.919
+And I believe we are live. Hi, Mats, how are you doing? Oh, I'm
+
+00:00:12.920 --> 00:00:17.319
+fine. It's a pleasure to see you again after last year. And I
+
+00:00:17.320 --> 00:00:20.519
+was trying to think about it. We saw you last year, but didn't
+
+00:00:20.520 --> 00:00:26.919
+we see you as well in 2022? Yes. This is my third year. Yeah,
+
+00:00:26.920 --> 00:00:29.559
+well, thank you for being a regular at EmacsConf. It's
+
+00:00:29.560 --> 00:00:31.919
+always a pleasure to have you chat about hyperbole.
+
+00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:33.559
+Although I think you're the only one chatting about
+
+00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:37.159
+hyperbole this year compared to last year. Yes,
+
+00:00:37.160 --> 00:00:41.879
+unfortunately, that's, yeah, Bob has some family issues.
+
+00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:45.839
+So yeah, I'm here, but I'm here. Yeah, but we are happy to have
+
+00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:49.199
+you here. And as I was saying before, I'm not sure if you were,
+
+00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:52.519
+you had the time to watch the previous talk by Mohsen, you
+
+00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:56.239
+know, you had, there were plenty of ideas, I think that were
+
+00:00:56.240 --> 00:00:58.999
+very similar to what Hyperbole is trying to do by having
+
+00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:04.399
+buttons and having stuff that can be in any other mode that
+
+00:01:04.400 --> 00:01:08.399
+would allow you to supplement a coding file with extra
+
+00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:11.879
+information. So the ideas are living on. And even though
+
+00:01:11.880 --> 00:01:15.239
+hyperbole is one thing, I feel like other packages are also
+
+00:01:15.240 --> 00:01:17.759
+taking a lot of inspiration for it. So congratulations on
+
+00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:21.439
+being an inspiration, I suppose. Oh, thanks.
+
+00:01:21.440 --> 00:01:24.839
+Unfortunately, I have not had any time to watch anything of
+
+00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:29.759
+the Emacs conference since apparently my life is like every
+
+00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:33.559
+time it's Emacs conference, I do something else. So I've been
+
+00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:37.919
+just moving this weekend. So, I'm in a new apartment, but I'm
+
+00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:42.479
+connected and everything seems to work okay. So, I can't
+
+00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:45.199
+relate to what we said in any of the other talks, I'm afraid.
+
+00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:48.199
+So, sorry about that. No, that's okay. No, but that's
+
+00:01:48.200 --> 00:01:51.559
+completely fine, because you may be able to watch the talks
+
+00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:54.599
+at any point later on, because I'll remind the viewers that
+
+00:01:54.600 --> 00:01:57.319
+the talks are currently available on EmacsConf or the
+
+00:01:57.320 --> 00:02:01.199
+pre-recorded one. And I think we only had one live talk
+
+00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:04.239
+yesterday. All of them are already available with
+
+00:02:04.240 --> 00:02:08.039
+subtitles and all the funny stuff that we usually put. So
+
+00:02:08.040 --> 00:02:11.359
+that's an invitation for people to watch it. All right. So,
+
+00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:14.439
+Mats, before we start with the questions, I see people in the
+
+00:02:14.440 --> 00:02:17.959
+process of writing them. Was there anything else you wanted
+
+00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:21.159
+to add on top of your presentation? Maybe some supplements
+
+00:02:21.160 --> 00:02:29.039
+or whatnot? No, no. Nothing to add. Right. I mean, this year
+
+00:02:29.040 --> 00:02:31.519
+was more a bag of tricks, some new stuff that you've
+
+00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:36.159
+implemented in Hyperbole. And it's fun because I see the UI
+
+00:02:36.160 --> 00:02:40.159
+that you have for some of those modes. And earlier, you
+
+00:02:40.160 --> 00:02:42.399
+weren't able to watch those talks, but we were talking a lot
+
+00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:46.119
+about Transient and about what it allows you to do in terms of
+
+00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:51.039
+interactivity. I'm actually familiar with Transient. No,
+
+00:02:51.040 --> 00:02:56.279
+no, no. It's a mode written by Tarsius, so Jonas Bernoulli,
+
+00:02:56.280 --> 00:03:01.599
+the person behind Magit, and it's a very nice way to create
+
+00:03:01.600 --> 00:03:06.319
+menus for interactive setups. So, if you are interested in
+
+00:03:06.320 --> 00:03:10.039
+perhaps augmenting what you currently have with
+
+00:03:10.040 --> 00:03:12.959
+Hyperbole, it might be nice to look into Transient because I
+
+00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:16.359
+think this is heading towards eventually being merged into
+
+00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:18.879
+the core of Emacs. I mean, don't quote me on this. and I'm not
+
+00:03:18.880 --> 00:03:21.719
+sure how Tarsius feels about it, but because of the
+
+00:03:21.720 --> 00:03:25.879
+adoption, because Magit obviously uses transient, Org is
+
+00:03:25.880 --> 00:03:28.839
+trying to make a move towards adopting transient, it feels
+
+00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:32.479
+like Hyperbole would do well as well to adopt it because it's
+
+00:03:32.480 --> 00:03:36.799
+starting to become a grammar of general UI at this point.
+
+00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:40.839
+Yeah, now when you mention it, I remember because I'm a heavy
+
+00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:47.519
+user of Magic, of course. So I know Transient that way. I know
+
+00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:50.999
+also that people have been complaining about Hyperbole's
+
+00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:56.079
+menu system. You know that Hyperbole reach back to
+
+00:03:56.080 --> 00:04:02.639
+something like 1993, so it has some maybe things that are not
+
+00:04:02.640 --> 00:04:07.279
+modern in that sense. So we have it on the plate to maybe look
+
+00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:11.479
+into these things and how we can sort of make things modern,
+
+00:04:11.480 --> 00:04:16.279
+etc. Sure, but it's completely fine to take your time. You
+
+00:04:16.280 --> 00:04:19.359
+don't necessarily have to follow the latest fads when it
+
+00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:24.439
+comes to completion engines or interactive engines like
+
+00:04:24.440 --> 00:04:26.879
+Transient is. I'm not actually sure how you would call
+
+00:04:26.880 --> 00:04:31.519
+Transient. Is this a UI maker, an interaction engine? I
+
+00:04:31.520 --> 00:04:36.559
+don't know. I'll need to ask Tarsius at some point. All
+
+00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:41.439
+right. Okay. Okay so let's move on to the questions. We've
+
+00:04:41.440 --> 00:04:45.719
+got a couple of them and for the Q&A we'll have about five
+
+00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:49.199
+minutes and 30 seconds until we got to lunch. So starting
+
+00:04:49.200 --> 00:04:51.193
+with the first question.
+
+NOTE Q: How is the log buffer generated?
+
+00:04:51.194 --> 00:04:52.679
+How is the log buffer generated in
+
+00:04:52.680 --> 00:04:56.719
+your presentation? But it's a very quick answer to this.
+
+00:04:56.720 --> 00:04:59.839
+We recommend at EmacsConf that speakers use the
+
+00:04:59.840 --> 00:05:02.679
+interaction-log package, which allows you to have a
+
+00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:07.879
+slightly prettier lossage. Lossage being in Emacs how you
+
+00:05:07.880 --> 00:05:10.359
+call the comments that you've used. And so if you're
+
+00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:12.439
+interested in using this for your own presentation,
+
+00:05:12.440 --> 00:05:17.519
+interaction log, and you'll be able to find it fairly
+
+00:05:17.520 --> 00:05:18.999
+easily.
+
+00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:21.050
+Moving to the next question.
+
+NOTE Q: So, the "select a thing" C-c RET is similar to expand-region? How does it behave in codes (functions, class, ...)
+
+00:05:21.051 --> 00:05:23.651
+So the selector thing C-c RET
+
+00:05:23.652 --> 00:05:26.479
+is similar to expand-region. How does it behave in
+
+00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:31.999
+codes i.e functions or class?
+
+00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:45.319
+Well I think it behaves exactly the same. I mean in the
+
+00:05:45.320 --> 00:05:50.079
+In any sort of buffer, it might depend on what
+
+00:05:50.080 --> 00:05:54.679
+constitutes a word, et cetera, and a sentence in the mood.
+
+00:05:54.680 --> 00:06:00.799
+That's how I would say it. Right.
+
+00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:09.279
+I'm just, in that sense, I'm just a user of the function. I
+
+00:06:09.280 --> 00:06:12.359
+haven't implemented it. I haven't tested it more than that.
+
+00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:17.959
+We can do this as a demo that you start with maybe select a
+
+00:06:17.960 --> 00:06:21.999
+small thing and by hitting it over and over again, you select
+
+00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:26.399
+more and more. Yeah, but it's completely fine sometimes to
+
+00:06:26.400 --> 00:06:30.199
+merely be a user of something, you know. It's easy. It's a
+
+00:06:30.200 --> 00:06:33.079
+testament to how amazing Emacs is because everything is
+
+00:06:33.080 --> 00:06:35.759
+written in Lisp in the background, that as soon as you start
+
+00:06:35.760 --> 00:06:38.119
+becoming a maintainer of something, you kind of expect it to
+
+00:06:38.120 --> 00:06:40.639
+just be able to understand everything else. And whilst it's
+
+00:06:40.640 --> 00:06:43.919
+technically true, the limiter here is the amount of time
+
+00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:47.199
+that you can invest looking at the definitions,
+
+00:06:47.200 --> 00:06:50.359
+understanding what they do, and sadly we don't have the time
+
+00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:53.319
+to do all of this. And especially with Hyperbole, which is
+
+00:06:53.320 --> 00:06:55.959
+obviously interacting with major modes in something that
+
+00:06:55.960 --> 00:07:01.239
+is more involved than Org mode, for instance. We do have
+
+00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:05.879
+another question. So, I know you Hyperbole devs are active
+
+00:07:05.880 --> 00:07:08.919
+and interested in sharing and interoperating with other
+
+00:07:08.920 --> 00:07:09.971
+Emacs tools.
+
+NOTE Q: What is a recent tool that you find exciting to think about using in combination with Hyperbole, or would like to suggest using in combination with it?
+
+00:07:09.972 --> 00:07:11.839
+What is a recent tool that you find exciting to
+
+00:07:11.840 --> 00:07:14.799
+think about using in combination with Hyperbole or would
+
+00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:21.599
+like to suggest using in combination with it? Well, lately
+
+00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:24.519
+we've been focusing a lot of sort of trying to make Hyperbole
+
+00:07:24.520 --> 00:07:29.639
+work together with Org Mode and in in a good way so they can
+
+00:07:29.640 --> 00:07:36.119
+sort of, I mean... The idea with Hyperbole is not to be better
+
+00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:40.119
+than everything else, but more to be like the glue or spider
+
+00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:46.349
+that could integrate different modes in a good way together.
+
+00:07:46.350 --> 00:07:51.359
+So that being top of everything. And Org is a very
+
+00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:55.559
+popular mode, and there are a lot of sub-modes, or whatever
+
+00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:59.519
+you can call it, with Org for information management. And we
+
+00:07:59.520 --> 00:08:03.119
+would want Hyperbole to work together with Org in a good way,
+
+00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:09.119
+so Org users could benefit from Hyperbole as well. So we put
+
+00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:13.319
+in some effort in that. But I think there's a lot of way to go.
+
+00:08:13.320 --> 00:08:17.319
+There's much more that can be done there as well because
+
+00:08:17.320 --> 00:08:21.559
+different modes can easily compete in a bad way in the
+
+00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:26.519
+details. So it's a little bit of a tricky thing, especially
+
+00:08:26.520 --> 00:08:32.839
+like we have this and how probably we have this M-RET
+
+00:08:32.840 --> 00:08:36.319
+for the action production key and that's also used in many
+
+00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:40.639
+modes. So we would really, in the best of words, we would like
+
+00:08:40.640 --> 00:08:46.388
+Emacs to sort of come to some agreement on using of the
+
+00:08:46.389 --> 00:08:52.759
+M-RET in a good way for modes to sort of be able to work and
+
+00:08:52.760 --> 00:08:58.119
+live together. Yeah, I mean it's a tough thing to share the
+
+00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:01.759
+key bindings and the grammar of interaction between
+
+00:09:01.760 --> 00:09:04.719
+packages because you tell me M-RET, I don't want you
+
+00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:07.759
+to touch M-RET. For me it's just inserting a new line
+
+00:09:07.760 --> 00:09:10.639
+and not adding indentation at the start and everyone is
+
+00:09:10.640 --> 00:09:14.639
+going to have their own you know, feelings and thoughts about
+
+00:09:14.640 --> 00:09:17.959
+this, so it's really hard to impose any kind of system on
+
+00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:20.559
+this. But I'm glad to hear that you're looking into
+
+00:09:20.560 --> 00:09:23.239
+interaction with Org Mode because I remember the questions
+
+00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:26.359
+we were having on your first conference when people were
+
+00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:28.959
+asking, oh I'm so glad that you're talking about Hyperbole
+
+00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.719
+because the only way I'm interacting with it is when people
+
+00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:35.599
+chat about Org Mode and then whenever we had announcements
+
+00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:39.039
+about Hyperbole, be it on Reddit, be it on Hacker News,
+
+00:09:39.040 --> 00:09:41.999
+people would say, but don't we already have Org Mode? And we
+
+00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.879
+won't get into the topic again, because I think you've done a
+
+00:09:44.880 --> 00:09:47.279
+wonderful job of explaining the differences in previous
+
+00:09:47.280 --> 00:09:51.359
+years. And today, the conference, your talk at the
+
+00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:54.199
+conference also made it obvious that it's doing something
+
+00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:58.039
+that Org Mode is not able to do. But ultimately, being able to
+
+00:09:58.040 --> 00:10:00.254
+interface between the two is something great.
+
+NOTE On Ihor as the new maintainer for Org Mode
+
+00:10:00.255 --> 00:10:02.676
+And I kind of wanted to ask you as well the question,
+
+00:10:02.677 --> 00:10:04.719
+because you haven't
+
+00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:10.199
+seen the talk, but yesterday we had the announcement that
+
+00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:13.879
+Ihor Radchenko was becoming the new maintainer of Org Mode.
+
+00:10:13.880 --> 00:10:18.799
+So obviously, a new maintainer introduces idea of changes
+
+00:10:18.800 --> 00:10:23.719
+of, you know, philosophy and strategy and all this. Is this
+
+00:10:23.720 --> 00:10:28.199
+somehow on your end with Hyperbole inspiring you perhaps to
+
+00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:31.999
+also innovate in a sense to maybe try to change the way some
+
+00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:32.559
+things are done?
+
+00:10:32.560 --> 00:10:45.239
+Hmm, tricky question. I know, right? Yeah, no, well, I don't
+
+00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:46.159
+know.
+
+00:10:46.160 --> 00:10:52.799
+I don't know if it answers the question, but we have this
+
+00:10:52.800 --> 00:11:02.919
+idea that we meet and work from our point of view. And then we
+
+00:11:02.920 --> 00:11:07.679
+pick up maybe details from the outside world. So we're not
+
+00:11:07.680 --> 00:11:13.079
+heavily looking into what happens in the rest of the world
+
+00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:17.239
+when it comes to Emacs and personal information
+
+00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:21.159
+management, etc. But but we do pick up some ideas.
+
+00:11:21.160 --> 00:11:26.719
+Sometimes. But yeah, we mostly do hacking and then we want to
+
+00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:31.639
+we meet once a week and work on hyperbole and you know, so
+
+00:11:31.640 --> 00:11:35.599
+Yeah, that's already very cool. And the reason I'm
+
+00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:38.799
+mentioning this is not because I know that you are operating
+
+00:11:38.800 --> 00:11:42.079
+in a little bit of a silo when it comes to all of Hyperbole, but
+
+00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:45.399
+it's always nice for me personally to see a lot of energy
+
+00:11:45.400 --> 00:11:49.039
+being brought in by people. Whenever there's a new major
+
+00:11:49.040 --> 00:11:52.919
+version being published, be it Org Mode or be it Hyperbole,
+
+00:11:52.920 --> 00:11:55.519
+people are excited. There's a lot of energy in here because
+
+00:11:55.520 --> 00:11:58.039
+people are chatting about what you're doing. And that's why
+
+00:11:58.040 --> 00:12:02.399
+I find that people, a new maintenanceship for Org Mode
+
+00:12:02.400 --> 00:12:05.199
+actually benefits Hyperbole in a way because you get a lot of
+
+00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:07.559
+excitement, a lot of people thinking and bringing ideas to
+
+00:12:07.560 --> 00:12:12.279
+the table. And I think it's a prime time to actually try I'm
+
+00:12:12.280 --> 00:12:14.599
+using the word stealing, but in a very nice way, stealing in
+
+00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:17.519
+terms of floss, stealing some ideas and trying to see if you
+
+00:12:17.520 --> 00:12:21.199
+can run with them on your own end. And that's also why I was
+
+00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:24.479
+suggesting transient, because transient looks like it's
+
+00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:28.759
+on its path to reach core at some point. And it would be nice if
+
+00:12:28.760 --> 00:12:31.479
+you had the idea early on to integrate with it, because it
+
+00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:34.319
+might save you time later on and make your user happy,
+
+00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:37.319
+because they can find the same grammar between the Git,
+
+00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:41.639
+between org mode, and between hyperbole. All right. Is
+
+00:12:41.640 --> 00:12:46.439
+there... I don't think... Yeah, go on, please. Yeah, I just
+
+00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:49.879
+want to add on that, that, I mean, as an ultimate goal, in the
+
+00:12:49.880 --> 00:12:56.679
+far distance, we would want sort of Hyperbole or hyperbole
+
+00:12:56.680 --> 00:13:00.399
+type of functionality be part of the core Emacs. So in that
+
+00:13:00.400 --> 00:13:06.839
+sense, it's sort of totally sort of okay with us that
+
+00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:10.599
+different packages steal ideas and try to merge them into
+
+00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:16.359
+sort of the core system. Yeah. All right, I don't see any more
+
+00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:19.279
+questions, so I think we can move to close. Actually, we're
+
+00:13:19.280 --> 00:13:22.439
+actually three minutes over time, so I'm glad we managed to
+
+00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:24.759
+discuss a little more, but that's fine. Mats, do you have
+
+00:13:24.760 --> 00:13:31.519
+any last words? I'll try it out. Okay, well, then, you heard
+
+00:13:31.520 --> 00:13:35.479
+it, everyone. Just try it out. Try it out, and if you like it,
+
+00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:37.239
+you can join us on Sundays
+
+00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:41.959
+Right. And every Sunday, well, if you do not know what to do,
+
+00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:44.919
+you know, here's an idea for you. All right. Thank you so
+
+00:13:44.920 --> 00:13:47.079
+much, Mats, for coming again to Emacs Conf. And we look
+
+00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:50.319
+forward, perhaps, to seeing you next year. Yes. I'll be
+
+00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:55.119
+there. Hopefully, I can see some of the presentations live
+
+00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:58.399
+then. OK. That's OK. You've got the entire year to catch up on
+
+00:13:58.400 --> 00:14:01.159
+the ones you haven't seen this year and next year. But you'll
+
+00:14:01.160 --> 00:14:04.359
+have the time to catch another one live. All right. Yes.
+
+00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:09.519
+Great! For the folks watching, we will be taking a break, a
+
+00:14:09.520 --> 00:14:14.039
+one hour and one minute break. We'll be back at 1 p.m. EST and I
+
+00:14:14.040 --> 00:14:21.479
+think if my UTC conversion is working right, it should be 6
+
+00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:24.679
+p.m. UTC, so at least in one hour. All right, see you in a bit
+
+00:14:24.680 --> 00:14:30.159
+folks! Oh yes, and sorry, I've got a little elf speaking
+
+00:14:30.160 --> 00:14:32.999
+in my ears. In case you're interested in discussing further
+
+00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:35.999
+hyperbole with Mats, Mats is in the room right now and I see
+
+00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:39.919
+people have joined the BBB chat. So if you want to join and
+
+00:14:39.920 --> 00:14:42.439
+chat directly with Mats, I'm sure Mats would be more than
+
+00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:44.999
+happy to answer your questions. And obviously everything
+
+00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:48.239
+has been recorded and will be published later on. But for me,
+
+00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:54.119
+I will use the break to rest a little bit and I'll be back in the
+
+00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:59.039
+afternoon. All right, see you folks. Bye, take a break.
+
+00:14:59.040 --> 00:15:03.160
+Okay.