WEBVTT
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You sound great. And on the stream, my eyeball says it looks
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great with Leo doing the streaming. So I say let's dive right
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in. You got a long, huge line. And in order to be a little more
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dialectical, I'll be reading the questions. So first
NOTE Q: which-key was a third-party package for a long time. Is there work to bring any other popular packages into core Emacs for Emacs 31+? (magit, counsel, etc)
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question, which key was a third party package for a long
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time? Is there work to bring any other popular packages into
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the core of Emacs for Emacs 31 plus, like Magit or Counsel?
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Uh, right. I already answered that one on the, as you can see,
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uh, right. Yeah. Do you want to quickly read the answer so
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that everyone, I just can read it out again. Um, as far as I
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remember, the one package that was being discussed just
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around the time that the Emacs 30 branch was cut was macro
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step. That's the package that was like, does an overlay, uh,
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replaces a macro with the macro expansion using overlays.
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So you don't have to pop up another buffer, modified,
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modified current buffer. But we didn't manage to address
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all the concerns in time for the Emacs 30 cuts and I believe
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it's sort of stagnated around that but it might be picked up
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anytime someone mentions it on Emacs Devil again. Another
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package question mentioned was Magit. That's a constant
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discussion regarding Magit. And actually, from the top of
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my head, I can't recall if Magit is on NonGNU ELPA or GNU ELPA
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right now. It's still on NonGNU ELPA.
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For those who don't know, only packages which are in ELPA are
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considered for addition, considered to be added to the
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Emacs core, to be bundled along with Emacs. And then there's
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another totally parallel discussion about having a sort of
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fat Emacs distribution, I call it fat Emacs distribution,
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where Emacs comes with a lot of ELPA packages or the
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pre-installed by default. Part of Emacs itself. Yeah.
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Maybe I could jump in with an active listening style,
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you know, kind of follow up question almost. You know, I
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understand the kind of different repositories. We have
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things that aren't maintained by GNU at all, you know, most
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notably MELPA. And then we have kind of NonGNU ELPA, which
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is sort of an entryway project where it's not necessarily
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curated, but there'll be some advice given, which you can
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take or leave. And that's the repository where anything
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that was the newer repository that represents, you know,
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help, you know, help, help supplied from GNU. And then
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there's the, actually the GNU, the GNU ELPA, what most of us
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are used to calling just ELPA. And that's what you're
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talking about there when you say,
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I mean, all packages on ELPA are officially considered to be
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part of Emacs, they're licensed under the same conditions
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as Emacs itself, same license, same everything. And
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they're more likely to be, to drop, to kind of be dropping
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patched. Oh yeah, it's time for this to move to core. Is that
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right? They have the legal conditions for that to be done.
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Everything's necessary from a paperwork standpoint. I
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mean, but other than that, there's not really a big
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difference between GNU ELPA and NonGNU ELPA. It's
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really just the main thing is this copyrights notice. So if
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you want to add a package to ELPA, to GNU ELPA, then all
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significance contributors have to have signed the FSF
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copyright assignment and the package script, actually the
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ELPA build script, checks if the copyright lines are all
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attributed to the Free Software Foundation.
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But that's not going to attach, right? So because that's not
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in place, it'd be a lot more work to merge it to core. I didn't
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hear the beginning. Nevermind. I think I understood. You
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made your point well. Okay. All right, moving on to the
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second question.
NOTE Q: Any way to get the goodness of Emacs for android with this other stuff?
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When thinking about using Emacs on
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Android, I started realizing all the other software I also
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want on it. For example, PDF Tools wants a small additional
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Emacs-specific program to be installed on, and notmuch
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obviously wants notmuch. Any way to get the goodness of
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Emacs for Android with this other stuff, using either Nix OS
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or Guix or nix-on-droid to make an APK with extra stuff? Are you
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familiar with this topic? Absolutely not. The extent to
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which I have used Emacs on Android was entirely
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demonstrated in this video, I think. In my previous video. I
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mean, I know it does a few scrolling stuff, but I have no idea
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how external stuff, because I mean, Android is, it's a Unix
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or it's a Linux based system, but it's really heavily
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modified to the preferences of Google, which includes not
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being able to have your own software on it. Yeah,
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definitely. All right, moving on to the next question. Does
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package-vc... Oh, no, that's fine. I mean, you can't answer
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all the questions. I mean, it wouldn't be fun for me
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otherwise.
NOTE Q: Does package-vc download a tarball from the specified git repository or clone the repository itself?
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Does package-vc download a tarball from the
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specified Git repository or clone the repository itself?
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It clones the repository. That's the VC part in the name.
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package-vc uses VC, the C-x v stuff. In Emacs 29, there's a
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new command called vc-clone, which in Emacs 31, it was
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actually exposed as an interactive command. And when you
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clone the repository, or when you, you can give it any URL of a
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Git repository or a CVS repository or subversion
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repository. Interestingly enough, most people only use
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Git, but anything that's, that implements this clone
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command for VC, and it could download it. So there's no
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tarballs involved. Which is also, one should emphasize,
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part of the difficulty of VC packages because when you have
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version control and you want to upgrade it, it might be that
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the upstream did a force push. For that, you make local
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changes and then you have to merge them upstream with the
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upstream changes when fetching stuff. It's one of the big
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downsides of version-controlled stuff, and I'm saying
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this as the guy who actually wrote package-vc. There's
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times to use it, there's advantages to it, but that's
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something you should keep in mind, why tarballs are
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interesting to have, in my opinion. Okay.
NOTE How is the new behavior of M-q in prog-mode (prog-fill-reindent-defun or something like that) different from the behavior of C-M-q (indent-pp-sexp) in older Emacs versions?
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How is the new
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behavior of M-q in prog mode, prog-fill-reindent-defun
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or something like that, different from the behavior
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of C-M-q, i.e. indent-pp-sexp in older Emacs
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version? My apologies if indent-pp-sexp, it's really tough to
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read M-x commands out loud. It's not bound to
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C-M-q by default, I can't tell. Let me try that command
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out because I've never tried it, never used it before.
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You know, that isn't bound by default. I bind that up myself
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and I have that binding. I think that's, that's not right. It
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says so. I mean, I'm currently executing it here in Emacs and
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it says you can also run the commands indent-pp-sexp with
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M-q, C-M-q. Apparently it is. I mean, I
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didn't set it myself. I don't know what's up with that. to try
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and move it. And then each line started with points or pretty
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printed. I mean, the difference, the main difference
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between that and the command highlighted, what's the name
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again? I forget it all the time. The prog-mode command.
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prog-fill-reindent-defun is that
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it checks if it's in a string or not. If it's in a string or if
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it's in a comma, then it will refill. Otherwise, it's going
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to re-indent.
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That's, I think, as far as I see, that's going to be the main
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difference. If we have some long comments somewhere. Let's
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try that out. Yeah, that's the difference. I just, you can't
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see it, but I did try it. Okay, good. Thank you. You did a
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wonderful job describing visually what you're doing. All
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right, moving on to the next question, and we have about, we
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have just enough time to cover the last three questions,
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especially because the next one, I can pretty much surmise
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the answer.
NOTE Q: Any plans for Emacs running in iOS?
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Any plans for Emacs running on iOS? Probably not
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because it's not, I mean, as I emphasized in the video, the
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Emacs port in Android is completely free. And to my
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knowledge, that's not something that's currently
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possible with iOS. You need Xcode or something like that to
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build iOS stuff. So that's a big no-no. I mean, maybe Apple's
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going to change their mind on that one. Well, I won't be the
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one liaising with Apple to make sure that they do, but PR
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welcomes, I guess, or motivated folks welcome. Second to
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last question.
NOTE Q: I am worried about the situation on non-free systems. There was talk about the Windows and the macOS versions being as good as unmaintained. Where do we go from here?
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I am worried about the situation on non-free
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systems. There was talk about the Windows and the macOS
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versions being as good as unmaintained. Where do we go from
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here? I gather that most users of Emacs are still on non-free
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platforms and will remain to be there. I don't know about the
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last point, if that's true, because there's no statistics
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on that matter. But the main, I mean, someone has to, I know
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that Corwin is involved with the Mac, with the Windows
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stuff. Modestly. Sure, I'd love to jump in, but I'm far more
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interested in your thoughts than mine. Please, please
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continue. Someone has to do the work. Eli uses, as far as I
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know, Eli's on the Windows XP system. So as long as he's doing
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that, there's going to be Windows support for one form or
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another, or at least DOS. All right. And now you put a quarter
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in me, so I'll jump right back in. That's perfect for where I
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guess I would take the question. To me, it's an
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accessibility issue. Think about it this way. Maybe that
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Windows XP system is what someone can afford. Likewise,
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from a freedom versus I have to do my job and I have to use
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certain technology to do my job. Maybe Emacs is what
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somebody can afford right? It might be the only free tool
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that they use and they don't have a lot of choice about the
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operating system that they're in most of the day. In fact,
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somebody could be in the situation where their computing
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device at work is really their internet access, right? All
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of those situations are possible. Therefore, I tend to
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assume they all exist and when I ask, you know, how much It
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definitely is concerning when we hear about kind of black
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holes in the brain trust of something like support for the
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Windows port. I feel like I've heard a lot of people
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answering that call, but the importance of that is that it
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doesn't stop echoing, right? Free software goes as long as
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there are people that are irritated enough about something
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to sort of come hack on it. Yeah. And the same applies to Mac
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OS. But I don't know any concrete details about who's
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currently working on it. I can't recollect any details on
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who's currently working on what.
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Okay. And that leaves us with the last question of the day.
NOTE Q: Is there a best practice on what Org to use when following emacs-latest?
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I'm a bit confused about what version of Org that I should
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write towards because there's Org in Emacs, the one that
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ships built-in. There's the one in ELPA. There's the one in
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Org, probably the Org ELPA, I assume. Is there a best
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practice on what Org to use when following Emacs latest?
00:11:51.960 --> 00:11:58.919
when following us latest. It depends on, I think, my rough
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heuristic is if you do use Org a lot and if you follow the
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newest features, then use the version on Elpa, because the
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Elpa version should be the most up-to-date one. The Org Elpa
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was deprecated, to my knowledge. If that seems true, please
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someone interrupt me before I make a fool of myself.
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No one's done that yet.
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I think a couple of years ago there were chats and then we
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deprecated the all contrib ELPA, but I think all the ELPA is
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still alive. I didn't know that about that. Okay, in that
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case, that relativizes how absolute my answer is.
00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:49.559
Personally, I just use the version in Emacs, which is
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bundled with Emacs, which is regularly updated on master
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whenever there's a release. But that might take maybe, it
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might be a short time behind the ELPA version, or the other
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ELPA, the Org ELPA, which we mentioned. But I'm a very light
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Org mode user, so please don't take my word for that one. No,
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and I'm happy to come to you. Yeah. I
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feel like we lost Leo again. OK. Well, that's all right. I
00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:31.279
wanted a bite at that, Apple. I'm a little bit. Yeah, I also
00:13:31.280 --> 00:13:34.239
describe myself as a light org user, but somehow your
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comment made me think, well, maybe I do use it just a little
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bit more than you, Philip.
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From my standpoint, I'm using it as a technical basis for
00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:49.959
dungeon mode in order to keep the game notes for the games
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that are made using this game engine I'm making that I talked
00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:56.079
about a few years ago. As soon as you said technical grounds,
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you definitely use it more. Right, right. So I've studied
00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:04.159
its internals a bit, and I have my own thoughts about this or
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that. But of course, I'm rolling with the punches because
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I'm just grateful that the bear dances. What an amazing
00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:14.519
thing is Org Mode. But Leo knows far more than me,
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conveniently having his stage right here, so he can't
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defend himself from this. But I've had thoughts around this
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space. Are you back, Leo? Yeah, sorry, I'm back. You save us
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all. Maybe closing remarks. I was trying to clear my throat
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to be very inconspicuous about me coming back, but
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apparently I was ousted. Yeah, I was trying to answer the
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question and I was trying to desperately save you from
00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:45.999
answering, Philip, because yes, the thing about Org Mode is
00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:48.879
that if you are the kind of people who tend to check out master
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on Org Mode, generally it's roughly pretty stable. Like
00:14:51.920 --> 00:14:54.319
when we were working with Org Element and stuff like this,
00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:56.479
Perhaps there were some elements of stability which
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weren't there quite yet, but usually now it's pretty
00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:02.039
stable. So I think that if you are really excited about
00:15:02.040 --> 00:15:04.639
contributing to Org Mode and stuff like this, I think there
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isn't all that many risks to just checking out Org Mode
00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:10.999
Master, so cloning the repository and just keeping up to
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date. Otherwise, ELPA is a fairly safe bet if you want to have
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the latest stable version. And we've got a question about
00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:24.759
[??] as with Emacs itself. You can follow whatever is
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published in your package archives or in your system
00:15:28.520 --> 00:15:32.399
distribution package manager. You can build it yourself if
00:15:32.400 --> 00:15:36.839
you want to contribute and fix bugs, add features, and so on.
00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:40.399
Yeah, and I don't think perhaps a little more with Emacs,
00:15:40.400 --> 00:15:43.439
because the features that tends to get introduced in Emacs
00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:48.039
are slightly more wild. Not wild in the sense that they are
00:15:48.040 --> 00:15:50.679
less stable, but wild in the sense that they tend to change a
00:15:50.680 --> 00:15:54.119
lot more stuff. The core of Org, at least during Bastien's
00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:56.879
maintenance ship, was very stable when you think about it.
00:15:56.880 --> 00:15:59.719
So things might change with Ihor right now in terms of how he
00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:02.839
wants to change some of the core behaviors, but it's usually
00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:06.079
pretty stable. And whether you use the latest major
00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:09.159
version, the latest minor version, things are probably
00:16:09.160 --> 00:16:11.679
going to be pretty stable. It's like you heard me while you
00:16:11.680 --> 00:16:16.199
were offline. And I do agree with that, in case you might have
00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:18.319
heard both our remarks and think we're talking different
00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:22.439
angles. Actually, I think we would tend to agree on this, Leo
00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:26.759
and I. For the record, when I'm saying, oh, I have to go keep up
00:16:26.760 --> 00:16:30.719
with org, that's because org grows behaviors that I've got
00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:34.639
my own. I had to figure out at some point my own way to do it, and
00:16:34.640 --> 00:16:38.119
now I'm learning how it's done, right? So I'm like, in my
00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:41.279
abstraction, blah, right? And those conversations
00:16:41.280 --> 00:16:44.279
usually end at, and somebody else took the time to figure out
00:16:44.280 --> 00:16:48.039
how to actually make Emacs do that. Go be quiet. And I do, and I
00:16:48.040 --> 00:16:52.999
do consider that under Bastien's tenure, it has been quite
00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:57.039
stable. We might notice the occasional like, oh, this
00:16:57.040 --> 00:17:00.519
highlights now and that didn't, right? But very often, very
00:17:00.520 --> 00:17:03.599
infrequently is it breaking my workflow as a user, any of it.
00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:07.799
It's interesting to me that this mirrors my experience with
00:17:07.800 --> 00:17:12.679
Emacs itself, where I think, in my perception, Emacs master
00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:17.199
is very stable and I might notice the slight changes between
00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:21.839
git pulls. But otherwise, in my experience, Org mode
00:17:21.840 --> 00:17:24.879
suddenly changes something, I don't know what changed or
00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:29.439
what's going on or what caused it, and it seemed... I
00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:33.719
perceive it as being a sudden uncontrolled change or
00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:36.239
something. I think that's apt. Right. That gets
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:40.159
right at it. If we're following, if we're pulling for more
00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:42.759
pretty regularly, cronjob every night or pulling a few
00:17:42.760 --> 00:17:44.639
times a day or something like that, we're going to the
00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:48.639
internals yeah, we'll have a different experience than,
00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:51.959
you know, if we only remember to update Org once every four
00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:54.759
months. It really pays to stick with everything. And
00:17:54.760 --> 00:17:59.199
suddenly lots of things might change. Whatever broke in my
00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:03.439
own config, right? And so a lot of, like a lot of things within
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:06.759
Emacs, but also within the free software tool chain, it's
00:18:06.760 --> 00:18:09.559
how much you're going to invent in the config, invest in the
00:18:09.560 --> 00:18:14.199
config, might limit you know, and maintaining your config
00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:17.199
may limit the depth of how far it makes sense for you to go with
00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:21.759
the tool at any given point in time. Actually just looked up
00:18:21.760 --> 00:18:25.279
my org config and it's four, I said four options, user
00:18:25.280 --> 00:18:29.239
options. So that's, if that's the measurements of org
00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:32.119
expertise, that's my level, it's four.
00:18:32.120 --> 00:18:38.559
That's all good then. Four of four, I'm assuming that is,
00:18:38.560 --> 00:18:44.279
right? Four of what? What was the metric there, four of like a
00:18:44.280 --> 00:18:48.119
thousand? Four out of the number of user options that Word
00:18:48.120 --> 00:18:54.239
provides. Oh, okay, I see. Four, yeah, more like 10,000. I'm
00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:59.079
there. Yeah. All right. On that note, I suggest we move to
00:18:59.080 --> 00:19:00.999
what's close because it's fairly late for me and I need to
00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.119
sleep. And Philip, I think it's pretty late for you as well,
00:19:03.120 --> 00:19:07.239
isn't it? I'm in Germany, so it's about... So it is pretty
00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:09.799
late. It's the same time zone as me. It's 11 p.m. for you.
00:19:09.800 --> 00:19:16.399
Truly, yeah. Yeah, so I suggest we both take the chance to go
00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:20.359
to bed as soon as we can. But Philip, thank you so much for
00:19:20.360 --> 00:19:22.759
both the presentation and also the answers that you
00:19:22.760 --> 00:19:26.119
provided to us and the nice little chat we had at the end. We
00:19:26.120 --> 00:19:29.519
look forward to seeing you again next year, perhaps for
00:19:29.520 --> 00:19:34.159
Emacs 31. I'm not sure. I was chatting with wasamasa
00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:37.679
trying to make prognostics about when Emacs 30 is going to be
00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:40.839
released. There's a pre-release coming soon. I should have
00:19:40.840 --> 00:19:46.719
mentioned that earlier. Well, there you go. Gone.
00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:51.839
All right. Well, thank you so much, Philip. We'll be moving
00:19:51.840 --> 00:19:54.479
towards close. Give us about two minutes to get set up in the
00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:58.439
other room. And Philip, we'll see you next time. Goodbye.
00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:02.160
Bye-bye. Thank you.
